bob's Comments

Re energy use in general--We are already building super insulated buildings that are zero net energy users. PV runs ground or air source heat pumps. Ad some more PV for a hybrid or electric vehicle and off you go.

to Nick Cook-- re Ground Source Heat Pumps GSHP--Solar penetration of the earth's crust in mid latitudes is around 25 feet. Heat pumps using vertical bores are drawing mostly on earth energy. Heat pumps using horizontal earth loops or ponds, lakes or rivers are mostly drawing on solar warming. In my case I'm drawing from an existing water well at 120 ft. so mostly earth energy. To add to geothermal the Brits are starting to heat large buildings directly from heat at around 5,000 ft. The Germans are doing steam generated electricity and district heating off heat at around 15,000ft. Best Bob Freeston member Intl. Ground Source Heat Pump Assn. (IGSHPA)

Prof. Garvin has something unusual in the economics. 160 colleges and universities aren't taking decades to pay off geo systems. His educational elements may be raising the costs. Generally, new residential systems can pay back in five years in most electrical markets. I got payback in six years on a retrofit in an average electric market. There are several variables, including whether the system is closed or open loop, available land, building insulation quality etc. The article has a tone of somebody discovering something. This is commercial technology with millions of systems in place and growing rapidly world wide.

Some random thoughts--a lot of the discussion above is about residential scale. I think the market will be driven by large scale projects. There are millions of acres of flat roofs around the country that can be power producers. Most become consumers of the power at retail. Ad power purchase agreements to remove upfront costs for large scale adaption. Europe and other places both tax carbon and import most of their energy making renewables a clearer economic choice now. Wind is far cheaper in most of the country. Broadly, most of the southwest will lead on solar. In the northeast and most of the country efficiency and upgrades of our old and inefficient buildings will come first. Ground and air source heat pumps applied to our large heating loads can reduce oil imports. Power companies have to make $ from efficiency. The fossil fuel boys have owned Washington for decades--it's a coal town. The current scenario has China spending hundreds of billions subsidizing their renewables industries and dominating the markets with cheap product produced with no pollution controls, gov't provided land, cheap labor and manipulated money. Germany might be able to compete--the US will have it tough at the panel end. It might do all right on silicon feed stock. Property Assessed Clean Energy (PACE) can help move solar forward. Commercial PACE is gaining ground. Residential PACE is more limited unless it can be moved around the Federal Housing Finance Agency. It is another tool moving renewables to a utility model of payment over time for usage.

Some of these comments are a little foggy. First there is open loop and closed loop. The comments above relate to closed loop only. I have open loop off an existing water well. None of the above apply. My system also delivers most of my hot water via an integrated desuperheater to an electric resistance tank at 100 degrees F with an electric boost to 120. Thermal retention mentioned above in the Geothermal HVAC book relates to Florida only, which is a special case and can be cured by using extra loops. The earth can in fact be used as a thermal storage system but probably on a large scale only. The Canadians have done two 40 plus house projects using solar thermal in the summer stored to a system of vertical bores in bedrock (another limitation) and pumped out in the winter with no compressors. There is a decline over the winter with the houses needing a booster system in late winter, but this is in central Canada. A new company has come in the market with a thermal power agreement, similar to a power PPA. They pay for the vertical bores for large commercial projects only and the customer pays for the thermal energy over time. The up front cost is eliminated for the bores making GSHP the cheapest installation for big projects.

Ice rinks can do a COP of 7. Take the heat out of the ice and put it in the building. There,s lots of them all over Canada.

I converted to GSHP six years ago. I figure I start making $ this winter. I'm drawing off an existing water well and dumping to a very large dry well I had excavated. Hot water is cheap in the winter--in at 100 degrees F and boosted to 120 by an electric resistance tank. Some hot water is free in the summer when I'm running the central air--not often here in the Catskill Mtns of NY. Very low maintenance. Other manufacturers are Econar, Florida Heat Pump (owned by Bosch) and Trane. I have a big Econar--sized for heat and an in studio, smaller Trane. We're figuring 5 year pay back in this climate on new construction if you can enlarge the foundation trench and run horizontal closed loops. There's a company now in the market offering a thermal power agreement on large projects only with vertical bores. They will drill and own the bores. The building owner will buy the thermal energy over time on contract. This eliminates a big chunk of the upfront costs. GSHPs came from the drilling industry. The national association -- The International Ground Source Heat Pump Association--IGSHPA--is based in Oklahoma and the national conference is in Oklahoma every other year. Not the biggest media market. The industry is growing 20 to 30 per cent a year, even during the down turn. Not too shabby. There are about 3 million installed world wide. There is a 30% federal tax break for the next few years. Over 160 colleges and Universities have everything from one building to a whole campus. Ball State U in Indiana is doing 4,000 well bores and taking the whole campus from coal to geo.

Speaking to the article-- some thoughts--GSHPs came out of the drilling industry in Oklahoma and the national association is at Ok State still. The International Ground Source Heat Pump Association (IGSHPA) will have their national conference this year in Oklahoma, where it is most years. Solar and Wind came more out of the environmental movement. Thirty % growth per year for GSHPs in this economy is pretty good. It's also world wide. Watch the Chinese. Existing HVAC people are steadily coming in. Installers are still early on the learning curve. Many areas of the country don't have installers or have so few that pricing is not yet competitive. The technology has to prove itself, which it is doing. It was invented only about 25 years ago. Solar is well over 50. GSHPs are very commercial and will expand whatever the political climate. Solar can be slowed by political blockages. I work with architects, engineers and builders. That's a good place to focus as many of them need to be brought up to speed.--best Bob member IGSHPA and ASES

Ground source heat pumps generally operate year round at a gross COP of 4. They are heat in the winter, central air in the summer and produce most or all (newer systems) of the building's hot water. I converted 6 years ago by connecting to my existing water well via open loop. I dump to a 10 by 10 by 10 ft dry well. I think I'm paid off this year. There is a lot of misinformation in above comments. Air source heat pumps also can be a viable option--less investment up front but way less efficient in areas of deep winter like upstate NY where I live. They may be the best investment in moderate climates. They have no advantage over regular air conditioning in warm months. GSHPs are twice as efficient. Vertical bores are the most expensive option. We are getting new construction where the foundation trench is enlarged for horizontal loops--paybacks are supposed to be well under 5 years. In new and retrofit situations the first thing to do is create a high efficiency envelope so all loads are reduced.

I converted a small multiunit building from oil to geothermal (ground source heat pump) six years ago. I'm paid off and up 10.000 gals of oil. Big change.

Good Luck Stephen--I've listened and learned from a number of your podcasts. I hope REW continues them on some basis.

Washington has had almost no movement on energy policy over 8 presidents and 19 congresses. The fossil fuel boys own the place. The decisions now rest with American industry and finance--are they going to create jobs in the US or China and other low wage countries? China is committing hundreds of billions of dollars to leapfrogging the US in renewables. GE is committing to big time solar on top of their 6 billion wind business--how much will be built in the US? On another note I can beat prices in above ad--Gucci, Rolex, Chanel--guaranteed genuine--all credit cards accepted.

Anybody have a take if the new drilling techniques have an effect (or not) on deep bores?

Don't forget geothermal power--three subtypes--all headed to major energy impacts. EGS -- Enhanced (or engineered) Geo Power is doable over most of the world's crust--the Germans are starting to do 3 to 10 MW systems cogen heating thousands of houses as a secondary benefit. All fuel based power plants should be required to be cogen--Tom Edison's plant was much more efficient than what we have today in the US. Volcanic plants are ramping up world wide and Ground Source Heat Pumps are much more efficient than fuel based systems. Grid systems themselves are very inefficient--DC applications can improve some of that. So can modern grid regulation and storage systems. Fly wheels, ultra capacitors, flow batteries etc can reduce the 10% overage power most systems run for safety. The tres amegas grid connection project in New Mexico and similar efforts at grid strengthening can make a significant difference in power usage.

First--integrating energy profile with mortgage profile is common in Europe. Try UBS or Wells Fargo, which is active in Cal. In my area of NY state 2 or 3 local banks have some understanding of the issue. It takes education but we're making progress. Second--ground source or air source heat pumps can be useful once the building is super insulated.