Why the Wind Market is Hurting

By Stephen Lacey, Podcast Producer
June 11, 2010   |   26 Comments

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26 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 26
June 11, 2010
I'm all for a federal RPS (in fact i'm very supportive of it), but I also know that some State's will fight tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. I have heard that there has already been substantial legal debate on whether or not the federal government can actually impose a RPS, given its priority traditionally been the state's role (but again, i'm not a lawyer so perhaps someone knows better than I do). Then there is also the greater challenge of building the tranmission system to support such a change. We've been saying for years now that we need an upgrade to the grid. I live in Texas and here they have done extremely well with wind with a more "free market" system. This can be accredited to Texas's efficient existing transmission grid. But if we make the investment for this at the national level (and a great feat it would be), then perhaps that would help open up new free markets by allowing wind and other solar developers to more easily have access to a variety of buyers which would mean good things for developers and consumers. This is easier said then done of course and alot of red tape still needs to be cleared through. But I still have faith that a federal RPS is the way to go.
Comment
2 of 26
June 16, 2010
In the final analysis wind is an erratic expensive energy source which depends on government mandates for its existence. In the summer of 2009, wind supplied about 1% of Texas electric demand with a capacity factor in the 10% range. And don't live within a mile of one of those noisy turbines.
Comment
3 of 26
June 16, 2010
The statement that wind competes with gas is just flat not true; the issue with wind is it's variability and most wind is collected at night when demand is low. For wind to survive there has to be grid scale storage that can capture the resource and time shift it. When wind realizes this and supports storage gas will be history.
Comment
4 of 26
June 16, 2010
Mitch is partly right.

When the wind blows at night, there's no demand, so the turbines have to be "curtailed" to prevent energy generation that there's no means of handling.
This causes wind energy to be non-competitive, since the capital costs are now amortized into far fewer produced MWhs.

However, waiting for a grid-to-grid storage solution will not make wind competitive with natural gas... Other than pumped hydro, nothing even remotely competes, and there's little opportunity for pumped hydro in the wind corridor.

But wind doesn't need storage. It needs variable demand that can stabilize the grid by real time load variation. The obvious choice is electrolysis - as electrolyzers can ramp up or tamp down in milliseconds (provided they are never turned off - at least 2-3% capacity at all times). But hydrogen is useless as a fuel, since the vehicles still underperform and cost a million dollars (after 60 years of heavy funding).

What can be done is to use the hydrogen in on-site chemical processes to convert CO2 into liquid fuels - such as gasoline and diesel. This gives us a source of carbon-neutral transportation fuels, and it offers grid stability and night-time demand for electricity that the wind industry desperately needs.

www.WindFuels.com

If you want to find out more about the challenges facing wind power, click on the "economics" tab of the WindFuels site, and scroll down to "stabilizing the renewable grid"
Comment
5 of 26
June 16, 2010
1. The Mid-Atlantic Bight has enough wind energy to power the states from MA down to NC - with 50% reserve left over. And that's with the technology we have today.

2. The Great Lakes can bring offshore wind energy to our in-land markets.

3. The Great Plains have scores of miles far from residents who might be within hearing distance of a turbine - and the frequent tornados teach us that high-winds are frequently present.

4. Mountain peaks across Appalachia are today blown-off with dynamite: instead, we could dot them with turbines to tap the wind energy that is flowing across, daily.

5. Compressed air energy storage can be used offshore as well as in caverns beneath mountains as well as the plains, to store wind energy generated over-capacity and return to the grid on demand.

All of this exists today.

Wind energy is truly national energy, with a role to be found for every state to participate.

Wind energy plants can be funded as power plants have always been funded: municipal bonds.

The only thing between where we are today and reaching any of these goals, is the political power of the existing market forces, who seek to strangle wind in its cradle. We need to buy these people off. Buy off the coal companies, so we can use their mines for storage of wind energy. Buy off the oil companies, so we can use their offshore equipment to dot our waters with turbines.
Comment
6 of 26
June 16, 2010
Were it not for low gas and oil prices the "Turbines" - Turbine-Alternator Combination I assume - could not be made at the price that they are.
The facts are that current designs are about 40 times the coat per m^2 of wind faced, or per kW-hr supplied, compared to a sensible design which does not attempt to ignore the following 4 un-avoidable facts.
1) The "economy of size" of any Turbine-Alternator Device is a necklace-shaped function of physical size because the two components - T and A - exhibit opposite "economy of size". The cost per watt or m^2 is minimum for sizes where the T costs about the same as the A. This happens at around One metre diameter. Just under this and the coupling gear-ratio can be 1:1.
2) There are two modes of operation. Constant revs/s and Constant Pitch, revs vary to suit wind.
The former takes power from the wind approximately pro-rata with windspeed, whereas the latter is very much Cubicly related, e.g. twice the wind will supply 2 x 2 x 2 the power into the Alternator.
3) The "Betz limit" for any rotor placed directly in the air limits the maximum possible fraction of the total k.e. extracted to one third. This can be increased to around half with very carefully shaped ducting.
4) The bigger the structure, the less able it is to face veering winds and the greater the disparity in velocitie over the swept area
Comment
7 of 26
June 16, 2010
Wind strands itself because it turns itself on and off. It's mostly a pipe dream.
Comment
8 of 26
June 16, 2010
Two FYI's there are 9 massive pumped hydro projects in the licensing phase at this time that will provide 25000mws of storage potential; these are closed loop so the project is removed for the aquatic resource. However it will be toward the end of this year before the first one will apply for license. (1330mw located in south central Utah near major transmission)
2nd fyi "wind doesn't need storage" the NREL report that planted this idea left so many variables out of their model that I consider the report useless, run the numbers and you'll find that for their model to work wind will be curtailed worse than it is now. Storage is the only answer for true integration of wind that will boost its effectiveness to 60% rather than 30%. The Sandia lab report offers a better grid picture for energy security.
Comment
9 of 26
June 16, 2010
Energy Conversion Lab Experiment

Engineering Books Free Download
Comment
10 of 26
June 16, 2010
http://machine-lab.blogspot.com

http://eeefreebooks.blogspot.com
Comment
11 of 26
June 16, 2010
Mitch, do you have a link to those pumped hydro plants?

I seriously doubt that much capacity will come online quickly. The economics don't support it. Hence I suspect those pumped hydro plants will be similar to the dozens of nuclear plants we've seen undergo endless delays and eventual cancellation, but I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

I wasn't crediting the NREL report when I stated that we didn't need storage. I was talking about the potential of converting CO2 into fuels. That IS storage, it's storing electrical energy as synthesized gasoline. It's just not grid-to-grid storage.

Derrick - CAES (compressed air energy storage) costs far too much to ever be practical. Peak energy prices would have to be at least $150/MWh greater than off-peak prices in order for that to have any chance at breaking even. Right now, in high wind regions, the disparity between peak and off-peak prices is only ~$25/MWh - $30/MWh.
Comment
12 of 26
June 16, 2010
Glenn,
The projects I mentioned can be found at symbioticsenergy.com or email me at garthbarker@gmail.com and I'll forward you a SOQ of that company. At this time the Parker Knoll CLPS project is on line to apply for FERC licensing at the end of the year; of course there is a year of engineering and 2 years to construct so you're right it does take time.
Comment
13 of 26
June 16, 2010
I full agree with these observed up and down turns within each current competive market conditions. But after Obama's 20A-oildeasaster something new will happen, to take into account all the damages and their costs produced by humans for a "drop of gasoline".
Comment
14 of 26
June 16, 2010
That a seller's market turns into a buyer's is not a new economic problem, which has recently occurred on the solar market. This must be solved by manufacturers and suppliers as described in the podcast within their supply chains.

That's the power market in the United States is currently a backlash to the wind is probably also the fact that some operators see here drift away from their and fossil power stations and are using all their power to do something bad, what not do to bad!

Increasing the efficiency of wind power is probably the biggest problem, as are the development of the market only just beginning here. The storage of wind power try to improve only by a few companies. Examples would be to name as the idea of hybrid power plant Enertrag (www.enertrag.com) the transformation of wind energy to gas of solar-fuel (solar-fuel.com) and deveopments on the battery markets for electronic cars as well as the redox-flow of ideas Fraunhofer Institute.
If these and other developments i dont know, will improve the market the price for energy from wind will be more than competitive and all the producers of fossil energy will be come into the market of wind. This you have seen the last couple of years in Europe. Additional their wont be any discussion about the worthwiles of investments in wind, because they wont found better ROI's.
Comment
15 of 26
June 16, 2010
Here in the US some changes need to be made before we can reach energy security, the first) regulation concerning pricing, management has to shift. In other words there needs to be a cost applied to curtailment, all ancillary services,quality of energy and demand. There has to be storage elements at the user level, the area level and at the grid/transmission level; each type of storage has a defined task to meet the user demand, maintain a "smooth" produce at all times and relieve both congestion and integrate renewable energy and re-from it into a product that can be delivered in fractions of seconds as a quality product to prevent line loss and it must be able to be delivered regionally. It must have black start capability as well as load following potential. There are storage types that can do all of these things but they must be able to work as a smart grid with technology that is also available. It just needs to be done and the pieces pulled together and applied.
No image available
Comment
16 of 26
Anonymous
June 16, 2010
Thanks Mitch. Good thinking
Comment
17 of 26
June 17, 2010
" But those numbers don't tell the real story of the difficulties the wind industry is facing. "

In Europe, we do not face this problem, but yeah, we have signed the Kyoto Protocol, and collectively agreed to increase our electricity supply from RE from 7% in 2005 to 20% in 2020.

http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/10203/ewea-predicts-10-gw-of-wind-to-be-installed-in-europe-during-2010-/

EWEA predicts 10 GW of wind to be installed in Europe during 2010. Total installed wind power capacity by the end of 2009 was 74 767 MW.
Comment
18 of 26
June 17, 2010
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/10186/intersolar-solar-pv-conversion-and-storage-project-in-field-testing/

http://solarcoaster.blogspot.com/2008/09/solion-energy-storage-solutions-for.html

Critics of renewable energy and the fossil/nuclear energy establishment like to highlight the intermittent nature of renewable energy sources like wind and solar, e.g. click here. I will leave it to the words of Hermann Scheer, one of the most forceful and eloquent advocates for renewable energy, for a insightful rebuttal in his book, Energy Autonomy:
In a strongly centralized and internationalized nuclear/fossil energy supply system, this simultaneity [of production and utilization of energy] is, on principle, not possible. The storage warehouse for petroleum is the oil tanker, for coal it is the coal heap, for natural gas the major storage caverns and the gas tank, for nuclear energy the fuel rod store, and for water power (if necessary) the reservoir. Transport and distribution systems--pipelines, tanker ships and trucks--take on supplementary storage function. Or else it is the power plants themselves that operate as steam power plants, that is, they produce steam, which they must then keep holding in side the power plants as a reserve in case there is a rapid increase in production. All nuclear power plants and all large fossil power plants are of this type...
In its campaign against renewable energy, the energy business never mentions its own storage capacity, as if this were not as easily usable as a reserve for solar- and wind-based electricity...The possibility that the sun might not be shining or the wind might stop blowing just when these sources are most needed to produce electricity is presented as an insurmountable obstacle--as if, by way of contrast, extra coal or uranium could be hauled out of the mines at the very moment there is a spike in demand for coal- or nuclear-based electricity.
Comment
19 of 26
June 17, 2010
The role of energy storage in an on-grid application—such as that of a residence with solar panels connected to the grid—is to store excess PV energy until it is needed. Effectively, energy storage will 'time-shift' PV energy produced during the day, peaking at noon, to make it available on demand. This will both maximize local consumption and enhance the efficiency of the PV system. Surplus energy can also be fed back into the grid, for which the owner of the PV system would be remunerated at a higher tariff.
Energy storage will also increase security of supply while making individual consumers less dependent on the grid and help to boost the development of energy self-sufficient houses and buildings and contribute to the continuous growth of PV as part of the global energy mix...
The main benefit of on-grid energy storage for utilities is that it will reduce the peak load on their grid while at the same time making PV a source of predictable, dispatchable power that they can call on when needed.
The Sol-ion kit has been developed to accommodate solar PV energy production of 5 kWp with a battery rated from 5 to 15 kWh and a nominal voltage of 170 V to 350 V. The Sol-ion battery is based on Saft's high energy Li-ion modules, with a nominal voltage of 48 V and 2.2 kWh capacity. The compact, maintenance-free modules can easily be connected in series or parallel to create the desired voltage and capacity for each installation. Saft's Li-ion technology has already proven a 97% energy efficiency in a recent 2-years field demonstration in residential solar PV systems in Guadeloupe.

The part that upsets me the most is the profits the damn electric companies are making!!!
Comment
20 of 26
June 17, 2010
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/05/taking-grid-energy-storage-to-the-edge
Taking Grid Energy Storage to the Edge, by Brad Roberts, S&C Electric Co.
The concept of storing electricity generated in a utility grid has been tried since the beginning of the power industry.
In the U.S., large-scale storage projects flourished in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s as utilities added 18 GWs of pumped hydro facilities to support the rapid build out of the fleet of nuclear power plants across the nation. Nuclear plants run best at higher power ratings, so pumping water in these hydro plants presented ideal off-peak loads during nights and weekends when customer demands are lowest.
Comment
21 of 26
June 17, 2010
The problems faced by large scale storage projects can be summed up into to three major obstacles; siting, environmental, and initial cost. Ideally a pumped storage project depends on a natural lower res. to provide water; in this day in time people will not tolerate this mostly because there is certainly some form of recreation attached to all natural bodies of water, then there is the environmental nexus. The process of licensing involves years of study and sec.7 consulting to determine "take".
This little company I referred to removed their projects from the enviro-nexus into an environmentally benign areas, near major transmission, and away from recreation hot spots. They also intend to build both ponds thus removing those concerns. These parameters dramatically reduce the number of sites available; they have sited 9 or ten and filed preliminary applications and are moving forward. They coined their projects CLPS closed loop pumped storage.
Comment
22 of 26
June 17, 2010
@Mitch.

The site that you linked to did not give a single cost estimate. Not one.

Until the renewable advocates learn that they have to compete in the real world they will continue to accomplish little to nothing. Right now wind is competing - and therefore accomplishing something.

Turning to extremely expensive non-competitive "solutions" won't help.

Look at CO2 conversion. It solves the only significant problem that wind faces, as well as giving a clean, scalable, and competitive carbon-neutral solution for transportation fuels (which solves a lot of problems).
Comment
23 of 26
June 17, 2010
Glenn

1532 per kw installed.
Comment
24 of 26
June 17, 2010
Mitch,

There's two costs. One $/kW installed - for the turbines, generators, whatever else... the other $/kWh storage capacity.

To give a sense of how far out-of-bounds the economics are for pumped hydro (by far the best grid-to-grid storage option), we'll credit all the possible best case scenarios that this project might achieve (what follows is pure fantasy):

Assuming that represents a combined cost, then the 1330 MW project will cost a little north of 2 billion dollars. (Assuming they don't see cost overruns).

We will also generously assume that they have the capacity to produce at maximum capacity for 16 hours/day with a cycle efficiency of 85% (which would require that they store off-peak power at ~2.36 times their rated capacity).

We'll further generously allow them a 40 year longevity with only a 7% discount rate on the capital, and say that the O&M costs amortize down to only $5/MWh.

So, they'll have annual costs of ~188 million dollars, they'll purchase ~9.138 TWhs, and they'll sell 7.77 TWhs.

Simple math: that means they need to sell the energy at least ~$29/MWh more than they purchase it for in order to just break even.

In areas with very high wind penetration, that level of price disparity between peak and off-peak is not seen... and the price disparity will only contract as new off-peak demand is introduced (such as a pumped hydropower plant), or new peak supply is introduced (such as a pumped hydropower plant.

Again, the numbers above reflect a fantasy condition... Real world it is unlikely that more than 6-8 hours/day will be purchased by the pumped hydrostorage facility... which results in nearly doubling the required price disparity before the investment breaks even. In order to get positive returns, the peak price would have to be ~$70/MWh more than the off-peak price.
That just will not happen in the wind corridor, which means that this pumped hydrostorage plant will not happen.
Comment
25 of 26
June 17, 2010
@mitch
you are 100 % correct that the daily problem of the powernet in the US have to be renovated but additional the evolution goes on and to get greater efficency from more than 35000 MW installed wind power the storage problem has to be solved. If that happened their wont be any financial and acceptance problems for wind again, because their is no comperable solution to solve the future energy consumption and get rid off the CO2 problematic
Comment
26 of 26
June 21, 2010
Under the current regulation and management structure expensive storage like pumped hydro doesn't have a chance however when the feds and the states both realize the system has to be re-worked then large grid scale storage will come into its own.
Time shift, ancillary services, load following, congestion relief, variable energy sources integration, black start, etc. all need to have a price tag attached for storage to find a place; when this happens the grid can work as it should, not until.
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Stephen Lacey

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About: I am a reporter with ClimateProgress.org, a blog published by the Center for American Progress. I am former editor and producer for RenewableEnergyWorld.com, wh... more »

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