Energy Storage: Will We Find the Holy Grail?

Having listened to the podcast I realise that there is a need for a storage system that is economic and efficient.
I have worked and worried about a method for the past 20 years. It is unbelieveabley simple yet because it is not high tech it is disregarded.
This involves offshore wind turbines not producing electricity as they turn but mechanically winding buoys down below the water. These are allowed to rise and turn generators when the energy is wanted.
One set of blades can store all the energy on a quantity of buoys surrounding the mast, if in deep water it becomes even more efficient in initial costs as each buoy has greater vertical travel.
These buoys can be made from used tires formed into cylinders.
With gearing, even a light breeze can be utilised to add to the stored energy.
What is put into store is virtually what can be recovered, the only losses being in gearing.
As regards cost, all that is needed is winding gear, cables, a generator, firm sea anchors and a quantity of used tires.
Little actual construction is needed on site, merely a firmly established mast and a quantity of firm seabed anchors. The tire buoys can be floated into place and secured to the cables. The making of the buoys is not even high tech, having done it myself I can show how it is done.

If anyone wants to follow this up please let them get in touch with me. I hold no patent but am happy to offer the idea to the world.

Dick Lucy
richard@hamsterbaskets.co.uk

A new energy storage system has been recently developed using a (phase change material). A company called Elcal Research has developed a system where they take off peak electric, wind, solar and store the energy as heat. As needed the energy is released using a heat pump. This is being done currently using ice by various companies for cooling very effectively. Their system can be used for heating or cooling by reversing the heat pump their material freezes at 78 degrees. The amount of storage is tremendous at the phase change. They say the payback will be short and best of all it works, I've seen their prototype I'm amazed. Check them out at Elcal research.com

WindFuels are coming!

Storage is critical to growth of renewables, and fortunately a much better solution than most have yet heard about is coming. We've shown that it will soon be practical to make all the standard fuels we need (diesel, gasoline, jet fuel, alcohols...) at competitive prices from CO2, water, and off-peak wind energy. These fuels will be completely carbon neutral, while most biofuels are only 15% carbon-neutral. The tank-component cost of storing energy in standard liquid fuels is less than 0.1% the cost of storing energy in batteries, compressed air, molten salts, or most other options that have been widely advocated.

Several other companies have come out with related concepts over the past few years, but they've been too inefficient and too expensive. Doty Energy keeps piling on the needed technical breakthroughs to allow fuels synthesized from CO2 and off-peak wind energy (hence, WindFuels) to be cheap enough to compete with fossil fuels as long as oil is above $50/bbl in some cases, or above $80/bbl in all cases.

Four peer-reviewed technical papers on WindFuels are available for download at the DotyEnergy website, and four more papers will be presented at the spring ASME ES conference in May. This is the kind of transformational breakthrough the DOE and investors need to take a look at.

Why do we spend so much time trying to develop that that has already been done? If you simply pump water into an elevated site such as a manmade reservoir you can generate electricity with common phase matching systems that have been in use for 100 years. Wind mills or solar panels would provide the pump energy in a DC state during access times. DC provides better torque than AC anyway, so phasing this energy at this point would be a waste of energy. A few elevated acres and a hydro generator and all storage problems are solved. After all these hydro generators, according to the hydro engineers operate at over 90% efficiency. But this does not go in line with you guys so you should dismiss it right away.

Gregrowe, PCMs are very interesting and I've read of several climate control installations overseas. Unfortunately the cost of the PCM itself always seems to prevent large scale deployment. Elcal doesn't seem to talk about PCM cost. Do you have any cost info?

We are working closely with a company named Change Energy here in Ontario....Change Energy specializes in the production of Hydrogen, and we (Atlantic Wind & Solar) specialize in the creation of highly efficient Hybrid RE parks and high efficiency solar parks. I hope to have something more conclusive to report to you re energy storage come spring : )

B.

I don't need to worry about energy storage..but only creating it nonstop 7 days a week...12 months a year.. I have no CO2 pollution, and no waste generated.. It is the Gyro-Generator.....The Gyro is inside a building. It creates it's own wind...that produces electricity... My equation is E=MC2
Electric = magnet x copper 2 . Copper 2 is the matrix wiring established inside and outside the magnet rotor. The Gyro-Generator when produced in multiple units can then be connected in series.. Take for instance in a tall tower that has 12 floors. Each floor has a Gyro-Generator in operation all connected in producing pollution free electric... I call it the Tower of Power. The Gyro is better than wind power and solar power.. It is better than hydro power, and nuclear power...Because the Gyro-Generator runs non-stop. We spend billions on Solar..that only works during the day...and even less when the days are cloudy... We spend billions for Wind Power when the wind doesn't blow all the time...We spend billions on hydro...to see reservoirs and dams suddenly dry up from drought. We spend billions on nuclear power...that has radioactive waste that lasts for centuries..and becomes a threat in which people fear they are making nuclear bombs instead.... And of couse coal or Oil are no good...because of what it does in creating Global Warming. And no one gives a carrot or care to the Gyro Generator... Why?

Readers should look closely at Windfuels mentioned in Comment #3 above. This is an important development. For those technically inclined, download the paper " Securing Our Energy Future by Efficiently Recycling CO2 into Transportation Fuels – and Driving the Off-peak Wind Market" from www.windfuels.com, the link is slightly below halfway down the page. The whole website warrants close study. I have no commercial or investment connection with Windfuels, but as an individual very concerned that our energy use is taking us to serious climate changes as well as eventually exhausting fossil fuel reserves, I recognize that Windfuels offers important solutions.

It is so much easier than everyone is thinking. Self-generating energy is easy to produce and store. We dont need a fuel source of any type such as wind, solar,etc. Its time to make the biggest technological step in mankind and become a type 1 civilization! Just ask.

Lacey, be honest here. Liberals, including environmentalists, really don't want a world powered by renewables, but rather windpower. Moreover, windpower is the only major renewable that needs a storage technology to help stabilize its addition to the grid. Geothermal and biomass can provide base-load, small-hydro intermediate loads and solar peaking.

Liberals have conned the nations of the world to mandate windpower with promises of the cheapest and cleanest technology. But the scam relies on assuming normal power output and calculating costs simply by dividing total costs by output. Governments have failed to conduct any cost-benefit study to determine the effects on the grid when adding the intermittent power output.

Denmark was the first victim, adding windpower up to 20 percent of supply. Most other EU countries and US states have a similar goal and are now adding a combination of about 45% windpower and 45% natural gas. The US is adding windmills at a cost of $10 billion per year. Dwindling and ever higher-cost natural gas supplies are needed as backup.

The windpower hoax is now being exposed for providing unreliable and costly power, while doing little about climate change. Denmark found windpower does virtually nothing to meet new capacity needs and now has one of the world's most expensive grids. An initial, albeit likely flawed, private US study indicates wind increases generation costs by more than twice, while reducing greenhouse gases by a mere 11%, because it must be inefficiently backed up with natural gas.

Now liberals hope for the discovery of some Holy Grail – perhaps an economic storage technology or a "smart grid" (a euphemism that may create a bubble costing over a trillion dollars). To get needed help developing these technologies, they have partnered with the utility monopolies that are blocking other lower-cost renewables. The plan is already failing and forcing governments to allow utilities to build nuclear power, waste and all.

But I should add that, because liberals, with help from environmentalists and the wind industry, have supported utility monopoly control over the industry and the development of all renewables, I don't even want the US to add other renewables and have to watch them fail also.

Anyone know how utility scale storage techs fit into a renewable portfolio standard?

Much has been said about the need for the storage of energy from renewables. It looks like we will soon have an effective storage system in our personal vehicles. When automobiles and motorcycles have larger battery and capacitor storage systems, they can take up some of the needed storage.
I would like to see the results of experiments pumping water uphill, using renewable energy, for use during peak energy usage periods.

It sounds to me like this issue is becoming too complicated. The solution is simple: use an electolyzer to make hydrogen(H2) from off-peak power (or other excess capacity), and store the H2 in a hydride tank. Hydrides are metal alloys that act like H2 sponges. They have worked reliably for decades, and would undoubtedly outlast chemical batteries. There are many types of hydrides, including liquids, so they can be tailored to a variety of applications. When you need electricity, use the H2 in a fuel cell to produce it. You could also burn the H2 for clean heat, or in a generator if needed. Let's keep it simple: stay with the clean technology that we already know works!

I agree with matt,the soution is to create energy as it is needed.Hydrogen can be produced on demand.It also doesn't need alot of space to produce it.I believe in on site-off grid production to become more popular in the future.I have worked for years to design a CSP system with a hydrogen storage.I would love to talk to people interested in creating a working project.

I would venture that a fair amount of the challenge with any new technology, has to do with the vested intrests of current power producers. Lots of transmission lines and power plants out there that are still being paid for. If we could use that money for at source power, we'd get there much faster.

Excellent podcast. Storage has, until recently, been the invisible elephant in the room. Molten salt and Hydrogen offer possible solutions but I get the distinct feeling we're going to end up with some type of chemical-based system that doesn't have the "fade" factor of salt or the logistics of a Hydrogen-on-Demand set up. Basically, a new type of battery. It will have to lie dormant, fully charged, waiting to be pulled for usage. A little boost during the day with either solar or wind, but otherwise just a big "thing" sitting there waiting to be activated. Right now, we're probably just waiting for the technology to evolve, but I'm hoping it's out there. Salt, Hydrogen, bladders, and whatnot are decent ideas, but we need a Universal Solution that can be applied fully down the line - from the Utility level down to the Residential level.

Benevolent of ya'all to pony up free ideas for the UTE's to sell back to ya. Humorously, most are worth as much as they cost.

Yet it is so glamorous of the PV and wind industry to spin the assumption in all their talk that energy is electricity.

Common knowledge is that solar heat is much, much, more efficiently derived and stored than electriclty. Over half of national energy used is for heating..... that could be gotten from distributed solar thermal for a far greater ROI. But sadly, the UTE's and developement corp's don't make profits from it and so the political machine gets no payback.

I see that it all needs to be done, but modify your talk and get off the schmear of "electricity is the only energy". The solar spectrum has far more heat in it than electricity provision.

Heat can be measured in watts, just like sparkey stuff, and could gain tarriff credits. That is where the movement meets the meantime.

I agree with Phil-Manke if we are to go clean energy there is a huge need for electrical storage but most energy consumption is heat. That is what Elcal Research has done I've seen it. It works, it is going to be economical check them out at Elcal Research.com

Storage has been around for a long time. Look at www.electricitystorage.org for an overview. Go to the technology - pumped storage section where there are details of the pumped storage facilities which have been operating the USA for some time.
Phil-Manke - You are pursuing two different themes if I have understood your post correctly. You are right in saying distributed generation of heat is by far the the most cost effective alternative energy technology; here in Andalucia in Spain recent legislation mandates that all new buildings will incorporate solar water heating.
However, electricity is by far the most verstile form of energy transfer. I cannot visualize another cost effective method of moving enrgy around, and as such surely the develpoment of storage into the grid is advantageous in increasing grid efficeincy and the incorporation of all other renewable power producers?

Storage has been around for a long time. Look at www.electricitystorage.org for an overview. Go to the technology - pumped storage section where there are details of the pumped storage facilities which have been operating the USA for some time.
Phil-Manke - You are pursuing two different themes if I have understood your post correctly. You are right in saying distributed generation of heat is by far the the most cost effective alternative energy technology; here in Andalucia in Spain recent legislation mandates that all new buildings will incorporate solar water heating.
However, electricity is by far the most verstile form of energy transfer. I cannot visualize another cost effective method of moving enrgy around, and as such surely the develpoment of storage into the grid is advantageous in increasing grid efficeincy and the incorporation of all other renewable power producers?

So, The grid has become de-stabilized now has it and, it needs renewable energy to fly in with its green tights and cape and save the day? Don't get me wrong, I am not against RE and I am not for, well, non-RE for lack of a better term, I am in favor of free will though and a lot of what I read coming from the world of RE sounds like shear madness, but thats just me.

Madness defined. Take your pick.

madness; noun
1. Obsolete term for legal insanity.
2. An acute viral disease of the nervous system of warm-blooded animals (usually transmitted by the bite of a rabid animal); rabies is fatal if the virus reaches the brain.
3. A feeling of intense anger
4. The quality of being rash and foolish.
5. Unrestrained excitement or enthusiasm.

It would seem that there is a point when "forward thinking" moves from what could be described as a strole on the beach to being meteoric which is fine for a meteor but not so good for a meteorite or its unintentional target. But the meteor knows not. It is an inanimate, thing where as humans on Earth have a conscious will, deductive reasoning. They can decide, "do I keep going in this direction or, do I stop and consider other options?" At least, some of them do. Some, being motivated by the overpowering will of other humans on Earth are little more than mindless automations. Doing without thinking.
Why, do we need all of this energy? Why am I going headlong and furious into a future that another tells me is so? Can I not decide for myself what the future might be? I am an individual in my own right but I seem to be caught up in a hurricane called, Humanity. There is nothing solid to hang onto that isn't simply swirling around, spinning with me. It doesn't want to let me go. "Looks like were no in Kansas anymore Toto."
Pity about Earth.

Check out: http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/grid-scale-electricity-storage.html

Modular, underground pumped storage hydro using a constant head where water is the working fluid and weights create head. Innovative shaft boring methods and high volume production (common) hydropower equipment

First pilot installation to begin this summer in the Dallas-to-Austin area.

Chris

Mr. Manke's comment about heat highlights the idea that hydrogen is Mr. Prince's "Universal Solution" for storage. Hydrogen can produce electricity through chemical reation in a fuel cell, or it can produce heat in a home just like natural gas. In fact, it can be ignited by catalyst, so not even electronic ignition is needed. Hydrogen can be used in cars, homes, power plants, backup power generation, forklifts, aircraft, spacecraft (NASA), etc. It's hard to get more universal than that.

The best design approach is to absolutely minimize the need for storage. Future energy distribution and usage should be switching to a "just in time" philosophy. Ex. What if everybody had a wind generator and solar panel on their house? Forget having batteries. Some of the time, they would generate no power, most of the time, some power, and occassionaly, more power than what we need. When that's happening, we send it back out on the grid for the those poor souls who are coming up short!! And the utility fills in what's missing.
Batteries, liquid fuel conversion, flywheels, water pumping, etc. They are all complicated, expensive, inefficient, take up large quantities of space, and can create their own environmental hassles. (What goes into making all those batteries? Where are we going to put these elevated reservoirs or dig these huge holes?)
The most efficient way to harness energy is to put it on the grid only when it's needed, then take it right off the grid to turn a motor. Forget some chemical process to turn it into a synthetic liquid fuel. Think about that!! We take 1 kW of electric energy to make maybe 0.7 kW of liquid fuel to put into an engine that will convert it to 0.2kW of power. Why not send it right from the grid to a motor and get 0.96 kW of power to turn wheels?
The cleanest, most efficient, and most cost effective transportation infrastructure for the future is an electrified rail network. Trolleys, light rail, freight trains, high speed passenger trains. All under a wire, pulling power from the national grid, a grid partially powered by the wind generator and solar panels on our homes!!

We have a lot of solutions for Utility Scale energy storage and here are more recent developments:

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/breakthrough-in-utility-scale-energy-storage-isentropic

Breakthrough in Energy Storage: Isentropic Energy
Isentropic Energy's pumped-heat electrical energy storage could disrupt the large-scale electrical energy storage market.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/compressed-air-energy-storage-part-2/

PG&E's 300 megawatt Compressed Air Energy Storage Project

China is ramping up as well:

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/watch-out-greentech-world-chinas-byd-is-coming

One developing company has a low cost storage tech in the works, and currently offers essentially FREE solar power with the tax credits & depreciation deductions, explained here: www.tnns.org/credit

I disagree with Mr. Hromanik . . . The problem with many forms of RE is that they are not dispatchable. If you want higher penetration of RE, and you want conventional fossil fuel generators to be replaced, you need RE to become more dispatchable and you need more diverse means of providing ancillary services like frequency regulation.

This doesn't mean storage is inefficient. For the most part if we're capturing energy that's renewable, we're either catching it or we're letting it blow, shine or flow by. It's not like you can waste sunlight that you don't capture anyway, or like we can control the output of the sun.

The most efficient and cost-effective "Holy Grail" has already been discovered in the diverse integration of existing technologies such as wind power, hydropower, photovoltaics, LED lighting, solar-thermal heating, appropriate biofuels, and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs).

The barriers to a healthy and productive economy are political, not technological.

JPChance.Org

One of the best 'storage' systems is in work done by the customers of the power companies. If you wash your dishes in your dish washer, you have stored 'energy' in the form of a cupboard full of clean dishes. To be an effective storage system, you have to do this when excess power is available. Likewise heating your water, operating your power saw, charging your bateries for your electric lizzie and so forth. The more facilities that are make available for doing work when power is in excess, the less necessity there is to store up power. You could call this virtual power storage but for all its virtualness it is no less effective than 'real' power storage.

http://mtkass.blogspot.com/2007/10/excess-power-what-to-do.html

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