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Geothermal Deal Could Bridge the Gap for Future Development

A fully dispatchable geothermal plant in Hawaii may influence power contracts in states like California that have a significant amount of energy but dwindling capacity with intermittent renewables.

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18 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 18
February 27, 2013
Ormat is not the first with the worst idea for use of geothermal as supplemental power for the unreliables - wind and solar.

Far more rational is distributed geothermal that is relatively cheap and quick with modern low temperature breakthroughs.

It is overlooked mainly because of the relatively low power involved. It is like stumbling over rabbits while hunting elephants.

The ultimate model is Iceland's Husavik power plant that even uses a trash-burning facility to add heat to the modest temperatures geothermal brines and squeeze out 3MW of power with advanced waste heat technology. Currently the plant is being updated by a company trying to corner the market on the Kalina two-working fluid cycle.

Iceland has a few elephants too. :-) That hasn't kept them from utilizing geothermal to heat homes and even grow bananas indoors.

Best, Terry
Comment
2 of 18
February 27, 2013
Germany is sitting on two massive hot rock fields. Munich utilities ahve log used goethermal for its long distance heat hot water system and is now driving deep, sealed horizotal, sealed twin pipe systems down to capture the 200° c steam going through special coated blade turbines that can handle moist steam.
Feasibility studies are bein consucted to see if shut down nuclear power plants can be converted. In that scenario, deep horizotal dual pipe rills around the existing reactor turbines generate 200° moist steam, which is further heated to 300° by aother array, namely Stirling motors on the steam line between the rankine cycle exhausts and the cooling towers. These would generate high frequency direct current pulsed at about 42.000 kHz, drivig "dry cell hho gas" generators producing gas at 1 kWh to 300 liters of hho per hour, in this case- 6.000.000 liters of gas an hour-- That and manetic resonace steam plasma igntion would drive a big 250 mWh Siemens turbine- generator- with hot exhuasts heating the geothermal steam to temperaturs required to drive the ex-nuke Rankine cycle urbines. Converted nuke and new geothermal will give Germany about 100 gWh in geothermal power by the end of 2025.
Comment
3 of 18
February 27, 2013
Geothermal and hydro share a common property - they have an upper limit in total energy available per unit of time and they can to some extent accumulate a reserve at times and draw it down at others which makes a portion of their capacity intrinsically dispatchable. With a finite resource, regardless of dispatching they are only going to ship a fixed amount of energy per per term. By becoming dispatchable they are able to sell a portion of their product as peak demand and/or frequency regulation power which, as we all know, sells at a premium; as well, they can offer standby capacity which is a money for nothing proposition. Seems like a commercially smart idea. If they can be used to support clean variable generators, all the better.
The interesting thing in this story is that geothermal is being used to offset the variability of fossil fuel generation relative to demand. Also, the fact that clean power is being sold at a large discount relative to fossil fuels is 'interesting'.
Comment
4 of 18
February 27, 2013
GeraldR,

"Geothermal and hydro share a common property - they have an upper limit in total energy available per unit of time and they can to some extent accumulate a reserve at times and draw it down at others which makes a portion of their capacity intrinsically dispatchable."

Last I heard dams did not recirculate their water nor do run-of-river power plants.

Initially geothermal power plants mined hot water and then it was discovered it might be a good idea to return the water in order to mine the heat.

Sure water can gain additional heat if the flow of the brine is blocked but the timing is problematical and then logically the heat would be variable too.

The problem is the variability of intermittent energy that remains. Of course it is better to use geothermal than fossil fuels but best of all would be to utilize geothermal as it is.

Best, Terry
Comment
5 of 18
February 27, 2013
The author made a very interesting point, Hawaii already has TOO much power, and 90% of it is generated from imported oil.

The reason for not moving quickly to a broader mix of geothermal, wind and solar is the existing capital investments in the oil fed generators. Hawaii are islands in the Pacific with plenty of air movement around them - so they (public) can argue (whether it is correct or not) that air quality is generally not a problem. It is the fear of change, worry of cost, and accepting the ways that have worked for 70+ years.

There is little doubt that Hawaii could meet nearly ALL of its "baseload" with geothermal. Peak loads generally align with sunny days - solar could easily provide much of the peak daytime power, wind can provide any that solar can't (evenings) and combined with batteries it could provide frequency stablizing baseload as needed. Hawaii could be the first US state to be 100% renewable, if its citizens want it.

As the oil generators age, replacements will need to be made, geothermal , wind and solar should replace oil generation as an option in the minds of HELCO and the Hawaii PUC.

And of course there are still the efficiency improvements that could be made in Hawaii - to significantly reduce their "baseline" to begin with. Get rid of all those hideous "HID" lights, move over to more efficient LED lighting for streets, and buildings. District energy could provide HOT geothermal water that would provide the energy needed for gas absorption chillers - air conditioning produced using geothermal wells!!

And there is all the biomass left over from the tourism and agriculture industries... they have an amazing amount of energy available year round. Biomass fed to digestors could produce biofuels replacing some of the imported oil that is still needed for transportation.
Comment
6 of 18
February 27, 2013
Hawaii may also be ground zero for OTEC.

The use of the thermal differential in the oceans never seemed very likely to me but Hawaii is a testing ground. I don't recall if that is where Lockheed is carrying out experiments. There has to be some serious interest to draw Lockheed in if only for the money.

Best, Terry
No image available
Comment
7 of 18
Anonymous
February 27, 2013
I'm just wondering if it's possible to use geothermal to help solve other problems and if that would make it more viable? In the western parts of the USA there are droughts that have hurt crops and herds and driven up food prices. Could water from the gulf be pumped to such plants, used to generate power but instead of the steam being recycled it be condensed back to water and sold to local farms and ranches? I would think that the steam would separate out most pollutants and they could find a way to remove them from the system, dispose of or reuse them.

Any thoughts?
Comment
8 of 18
February 27, 2013
I'm just wondering if it's possible to use geothermal to help solve other problems and if that would make it more viable? In the western parts of the USA there are droughts that have hurt crops and herds and driven up food prices. Could water from the gulf be pumped to such plants, used to generate power but instead of the steam being recycled it be condensed back to water and sold to local farms and ranches? I would think that the steam would separate out most pollutants and they could find a way to remove them from the system, dispose of or reuse them.

Any thoughts?
Comment
9 of 18
February 28, 2013
Me and my typos. As other commenters have noted, Hawaii is so extremely "rich" in "renewable" and "energy eficiency" potentials.
Comment
10 of 18
February 28, 2013
Hmmm, some kind of duplicating problem going on if you edit your posts... so watch out. I was caught earlier.
Comment
11 of 18
February 28, 2013
Hi Scott,

Geothermal is looked at as a source of water in some isolated instances but generally it is a bad business to remove more water from the system than is lost in transit.

Understand that many plants today do not produce steam but rather hot water.

There is a reason the water is often referred to as a brine. For the time being the more interesting use is as a source of minerals.

http://geoheat.oit.edu/bulletin/bull21-2/art1.pdf

Sewage water is now being brought to The Geysers in California to help restore the largest geothermal power producer in the world but it has a lot of restoring to do and is not cheap.

One of the many neglected technologies that seems to have gone nowhere with the craze for overhyped wind and solar is the Seadog that uses ocean wave power to pump ocean water ashore for both generation of electricity and desalinization.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9952575-54.html

Your idea may indeed have great utility with more progress in EGS but that has been in development for many decades with very meager results to date.

Best, Terry
Comment
12 of 18
February 28, 2013
Scott, anything is possible -- if you spend enough money -- !

But is it cost effective. Would it make since to pump the equivalent of a Colorado river from an ocean, put the water in the ground and depend on the heat to distill the water. NO.

It would be more cost effective to change farming practices to use less water, to change the ranching practices with the herds. It is far easier to conserve what we have than to try to move water to other parts of the country.

And then there is the problem with mixing saltwater into an aquifer that might have little saltwater - making drinking wells further away -- unusable.

First we need to become more efficient/effective users of the resources we have - then and only then consider re-engineering our eco system. The latter almost always ends with a disaster. E.g. read about the former Soviet Unions attempt to redirect rivers.
Comment
13 of 18
February 28, 2013
Dennis Heidner,

>Scott,

...then there is the problem with mixing saltwater into an aquifer that might have little saltwater - making drinking wells further away -- unusable.First we need to become more efficient/effective users of the resources we have - then and only then consider re-engineering our eco system.<

I have considerable sympathy with the thought but people have been drilling wells and diverting water for a very long time.

Should we go through "kill all the beavers" thing again? :-) Man is not the only beast that re-engineers resources. In fact we could not have a livable planet for humans without the tiny little beasties that converted methane to oxygen and then died of oxygen excess.

Best, Terry
Comment
14 of 18
February 28, 2013
Yes Terry,

And humans have also been using crude oil and natural gas for a long time also...

Unfortunately over using, getting hooked on only one source of energy, then constantly trying to re-engineer our environment to fix the problem that the previous solution causes -- seems to come back and bite the next generation. We humans can't accurately predict the weather, stock markets, or our long term impacts on the world around us.

Hawaii is experiencing that now, hooked on one source of energy - and not yet ready to risk moving to another different source. If they had diversified their energy production years ago (more biomass, geothermal and wind), the re-balancing of their energy mix today would be a "non-issue".
Comment
15 of 18
February 28, 2013
Dennis Heidner,

"humans have also been using crude oil and natural gas for a long time also"

Lemmings have also been going over cliffs for a long time also but not all of them all at one time.

Only humans could manage that knowingly.

Hawaii is far from unique as an island state in relying heavily on oil but it is unusual in producing geothermal power and in fighting it tooth and nail. I believe it is unique in getting a federal grant to stop geothermal development with the late Senator Inouye bragging about getting the grant to a wild celebration of the event along with homage to the fire goddess Pele.

"Although the fight to stop geothermal development took two decades, Native Hawaiians and others were ultimately successful in preserving Wao Kele in perpetuity through negotiation with the U.S. Forest Service, the Campbell Estate and the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA)—a state agency responsible for managing Native Hawaiian lands in trust. In 1994, the geothermal project was abandoned. When the Campbell Estate put the land up for sale in 2001, Hawaiian Senators Daniel Inouye and Daniel Akaka pressured the Forest Service to commit $3.35 million from its Legacy Program, whose goal is to protect forests of cultural significance, toward the purchase of nearly 26,000 acres of Wao Kele O Puna."

http://www.preservationnation.org/issues/diversity/native-american-heritage-in-preservation/saved-places/wao-kele-o-puna.html

Best, Terry
Comment
16 of 18
February 28, 2013
Re comment # 4 "Last I heard dams did not recirculate their water nor do run-of-river power plants."

Many hydroelectric plants could be easily modified to act additionally as pumped-storage facilities. The recovery efficiency of these exceeds that of most other electricity storage systems (well over 85%), and a combination of geothermal, solar, wind and pumped storage systems should be capable of handling all electricity delivery needs with minimal environmental impact. At most, some increase in the transmission system from/to the hydro plant would be needed.
Comment
17 of 18
February 28, 2013
Peter Bradshaw,

"Many hydroelectric plants could be easily modified to act additionally as pumped-storage facilities. The recovery efficiency of these exceeds that of most other electricity storage systems"

True.

Two problems:

1. Some dams today are being destroyed because of problems they cause downstream. Warren Buffett awhile back was negotiating some kind of deal on dams on the Klamath River that had lead to catastrophic conditions during a drought that even got Dick Cheney involved during a presidential campaign.

2. There are geographic limitations.

"a combination of geothermal, solar, wind and pumped storage systems should be capable of handling all electricity delivery needs with minimal environmental impact."

I'm from Missouri. [We did live in Missouri for a number of years.]

You would have to show me. I don't believe you.

Most importantly all historical data is unreliable, even if accurate, because of - you know - global warming.

Your list of energy sources is very selective. The most available of all renewable baseload is biomass and particularly thermal biomass. It could even be used for transportation and can alleviate environmental problems instead of causing more.

Best, Terry
Comment
18 of 18
March 1, 2013
Hawaii provides a text book case of how common practice trumps good management. Hawaii imports over $7B/a in fossil fuels in order to produce electricity while it's renewable resources are barely tapped. Only 12% of its hydroelectric potential has been developed. In addition to the obvious rich geothermal resource, there is an excellent hydrothermal resource to the west and an equally good wave and offshore wind resource to the east. There are three aspects to the problem: first, it's hard to make race horses out of giraffes - a wealth of experience in on-shore combustion is no preparation for other technologies and we fear what we don't know; second, since utilities are always regulated to a profit point and since customers can be made to absorb any cost, there is no motivation to change even when customers end up paying much more than necessary; third, once investment is locked in to a particular solution it stays there for a very long time (~60 years in the power industry) and bankers have precious little imagination so even in a climate of change, the time constant is very long. Hawaii's potentials include hydro which could meet 70% of demand, geothermal - 5000%, hydrothermal 50,000%, off-shore wind - 2000%, wave power 500%, solar - 1200%. Meanwhile, the utilities (apparently with an assist from FERC) have placed a cap of 15% on total renewable energy on the grid. Essentially, the plan is more of the same with little or no relief for Hawaiian consumers any time soon. That could be a fourth thing: governments are always willing to tip the scale in favor of same old same old.
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