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The Big Question: What is Onshore Wind's Future in Europe?

David Appleyard, Chief Editor, Renewable Energy World Magazine
December 12, 2012  |  57 Comments

Print

Adam Barber, Publisher, A Word About Wind

Whisper it, but the bad news for many is that growth in European onshore wind will be limited for many years to come.

As fiscal consolidation continues and, perversely, as the cheapest form of wind energy production is hit hardest by falling subsidies, the prospect of further European expansion looks bleak.

However, look below the surface and as Eastern European countries begin to seek greater EU integration, policy for 2020 targets will drive the market forwards.

The recent expansion at the Fantanele-Cogealac Wind Farm in Romania is a case in point. Right now the site has connected over 216 turbines to the grid and is generating regular power and returns.It's a similar story for some of the savviest of developers and operators currently working throughout Poland and Turkey too, although in all instances, regulatory and legal obstacles remain.

Nevertheless, as Eastern European markets express an increasing desire to turn their backs on the rising price of Russian gas and decreasing investment in increasingly expensive coal-fired power, for these determined countries wind remains a compelling proposition.

Here, the markets have learnt and adapted to new technologies relatively quickly and have developed a series of strong relationships with key developers and manufacturers which have in turn provided additional manufacturing resources. New technology is being tried and tested and for the likes of GE operating in Romania, Eastern Europe has for a long time been viewed as an important diversification away from its established US base.

Because of this, over the next 12 to 24 months Eastern Europe should continue to see some gentle upward momentum.

Subsidies will remain relatively small, site quality and ease of connectivity will vary greatly and the administrative challenge and local political headaches will never totally disappear. However, for European onshore wind, Poland, Romania and Turkey continue to offer the best chance of growth.

Pierre Tardieu, Regulatory Affairs Advisor, European Wind Energy Association

10.5 GW was the all-time European record for annual installations, achieved in 2009. Since then, due to the economic slowdown and government austerity, Europe has had slightly lower growth of 9.6 GW in 2010 and 2011. Indications are that 2012 will be similar to the last two years - around 10 GW. But 2013 is another matter and could be tougher.

Two key trends are clear for many national markets. First, a growing north/south split in western Europe, with recession and austerity slowing down many 'traditional' southern European markets including pioneers Spain and Portugal; and second, continued growth in some emerging markets such as Romania, but a risk of paralysis in other previously growing markets such as Bulgaria.

Crisis-hit Spain's reduction in electricity consumption is likely to continue, resulting in less capacity investment, as well as caps on new wind capacity and the new electricity tax. The Spanish market may not pick up for a number of years. The same is true of Portugal.

Italy, due to the crisis but also the instability of its regulatory framework over the past years, is likely to suffer a slowdown in 2013. Project roll-out in 2010, 2011 and 2012 is mainly from projects given permission several years ago. Few new permits have been awarded since, and this will start to hit installations in 2013.

Greece's wind energy industry did not feel the brunt of the crisis in 2011, but it could still come this year or next.

France too is facing a slowdown, due more to regulatory uncertainty over the feed-in tariff and over-complex permitting rules than to any financial crisis. Things could pick up in the coming years with the administrative simplification and reduction in nuclear promised by the Hollande government.

Northern Europe is much less badly hit by the crisis. The German energy transformation, driven by the decision to abandon nuclear, requires, and is delivering, onshore growth.

Some Nordic markets like Sweden and Finland are also showing solid growth to achieve their 2020 targets, as is the UK, despite investor uncertainty over energy market reform. Denmark will also have to achieve considerable growth if it is to meet its recently announced target of 50% wind by 2020. Ireland, one of the markets with the greatest wind penetration, should be buoyed by the inauguration of a 500 MW inter-connector with the UK and recent clearing of its new support scheme by the European Commission.

In emerging markets, there is a second divide opening up between likely continued growth in some markets and a failure to live up to early promise in others. One previously promising country, Bulgaria, has changed its support scheme and grid connection requirements to slow down wind energy development. Without policy changes, this market could be stopped for quite some time, while Romania, an emerging pioneer, seems to be heading for a record year in 2012.

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57 Comments

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william payne
william payne
January 1, 2013
Solar and wind generation of electricity Texas field trip.

http://www.prosefights.org/xmas2012/xmas2012.htm#rostamzadeh
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 18, 2012
This will be my last comment on the blog. With limited time each day, I do not care to hear reprtitions of the same worn stories that have been around for years. There are some niche apllications where wind power is valuable, there are some mass uses where it is an expensive liability, with the poor subsidising the richer in many cases. Some Scandanavian countries even pay neighbouring countries to take electricity from their windmills when all runs near the maximum output. That is a silly outcome. They built more than they should.
If you wish to delve a little deeper, there are some publications that calculate the cost to AVOID the emission of a tonne of CO2 into the atmosphere during power generation. Intuitively, one would think that wind systems would perform well. For one paper, with good data behind it, see the Australian engineer peter lang at

http://docs.wind-watch.org/lang-wind-power-co2-emissions.pdf

I wish this blog well and hope that it soon catches up with modern thinking and analysis.
Forrest Jones
Forrest Jones
December 18, 2012
It is too bad that this thread has gotten involved in some side topics. Clearly, we know that wind turbines should never be placed near residences. And clearly we know that that when ever money is involved (Govt incentives), that the truth will be stretched. What the article is really talking about is, "Whether On-Shore Wind Power is Dead?" And no, it clearly is not dead. An interesting side thread that I would be interested in hearing about is the cost of off-shore wind power. Is it 2 or 3 times as much? And how would someone get to the turbine, to do even the simplest repair?

Here in Washington State, most of the Wind Turbines that I have seen are located in the arid, tumbleweed regions in the middle of the state (but close to the freeway for spectators to see). There is one installation where about 100 turbines are located on farmland (with no homes) and that land is leased out to others to raise wheat and other crops. True, there is better wind along the Pacific Coast, but that is also where the more expensive property and views are located. It may be difficult to support installing turbines on waterfront property, but there are often many other hilly areas that get good (not excellent) wind.

Let me mention one of the problems that is occurring at night sometimes. WA State is blessed with a lot of Hydroelectric power. When there is a strong wind at night (not as much electrical demand), and the dam is full, the local Power Utility has said several times that they could not accept the additional electricity. I assume that this is a temporary problem with managing transmission infrastructure, but it is an interesting problem.

We should not try to compare wind to solar, but rather realize that no single source of energy is going to solve our energy problems. Every source of energy has some type of weakness (radioactivity, smoke, lack of enough rivers, salmon habitat, pollution, etc.). We need to continue to find the best energy sources and improve them.
ANONYMOUS
December 17, 2012
Bob, I appreciate the sympathy. However, you seem to miss the point that the wind company knew before they built the turbines near my home and in our town that noise WOULD be an issue. They told us that the ambient sound would cover the sound of the turbines, even though they knew this was NOT the case. The nuisance IS the wind companies who in their interest in grabbing tax dollars sacrifice the welfare of others. They will continue to do so until people like you send them the message that it is BAD business. Again, I suggest that you see the documentary Windfall because I really do not think you understand the issue or the negative impact industrial sized wind turbines have on nearby residents.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
You gentlemen will have to excuse me. I feel a need to turn off this thread before I risk catching whatever seems to have invaded your thought processes.
william payne
william payne
December 16, 2012
Reported as spam.

Geezus-Squeezus.

This place has turned into a meeting of the Tin Foil Hat Society.

Google 'scorpion silhoutte named james'

Need contract, advance, reason for writing is $, of course. :)
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Geezus-Squeezus.

This place has turned into a meeting of the Tin Foil Hat Society.
william payne
william payne
December 16, 2012
Bob Wallace,

Primary focus is investigation of possible large-scale solar generation of electricity scams.

Wind turbine generation of electricty may be a far larger scam?
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Bill, when I was rebuilding the diesel engine on my sailboat Yanmar sent me the wrong set of rings on the new piston. I had to tear the engine down a second time and replace the rings.

That is as germane to this discussion as your "junk" about some faulty merchandise floating around somewhere.

I assume you think it does something to lower the value of wind as an energy source. If so, it demonstrates incredibly shallow thinking on your part.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Anon - if you want some sympathy for having a nuisance located too close to your house, you've got it. How many friggin' times have I told you that I don't believe turbines should be sited close to residences?

Are you that Canadian woman still railing about wind? If so, why are you wasting you life?

But, please.

Please recognize that this is not a wind turbine problem but a lack of your ability to control nuisance. Wind turbine or pig farm.
william payne
william payne
December 16, 2012
Partial email to RTECC

mechanical problems with wind generation of electricity, and obsoleting embedded controller products so as to force customers to upgrade to new systems.

Scam allegations in large-scale solar generation of electricity in New Mexico are under investigation.

Inclusion of embedded controller products where replacement parts may unavailable may also point to a scam?

Suppliers of smart meters, smart grid components, wind turbine and solar generation of electricity controllers systems may find that they are forced to upgrade embedded controller product and may not be able to supply their customers with replacement parts?

RTECC should issue a position statement on the embedded controller industry practice of deliberately obsoleting its products for business reasons for this could have bad consequences for power industries?

Reason is that non-technically educated individuals make decisions to include smart embedded controller products when they do not understand how most of the electronics and software industries work.

Please ack if you receive this email.

Please respond by January 7, 2013.

Regards,
bill

http://www.prosefights.org/solarlight/solarlight.htm#rtecc
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Bob it is a lot more complicated that you seem to understand. "If you're living next to a turbine and don't like it then move. Have your attorney and realtor present the turbine owner with an estimate of your loss and if the turbine owner won't settle then sue." Talk about drivel, this takes the cake! Do you think we have not tried every avenue possible with out town, community, and our state? Do you think we have not hired a lawyer and spent hard earned cash trying to resolve this issue in the courts? Show some sympathy for that poor woman in Canada who can not move because no one is willing to buy a house that is near a wind turbine. "Sucking it up" and selling at a loss means financial insecurity for our retirement and loss of our kids' inheritance OR staying in our home and living with constant noise and the resulting health effects. We are between a rock and a hard place. We worked long and hard to buy our home and you are suggesting we should just give up our major life investment. Sorry but that does seems "stupid."
Siting laws in the US make it legal wind companies to place gigantic industrial turbines too close to homes. We have no choice but to fight and we will continue to do so until people like you realize that the problem is a serious one. It is an issue that needs to be resolved or the wind industry is going to have one Hell of a fight on its hands. Our numbers are growing and as more turbines are placed in rural neighborhoods, awareness is growing. As we go, we are learning more and getting involved in local and state governments. Watch for us. Behind each wind project you will see our numbers growing and in time we will succeed in changing siting laws and noise regulations. We shall hope that at some point the wind industry will smarten up and realize that their current siting policies will in the end close them down.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Anon.

I'm not going to google wind noise because what will pop up it a lot of crackpot drivel. There will likely be a few hundred posts from that woman in Canada who has been going on for years about the turbine installed close to her house.

Enough of this. It's just stupid. Again, people will have to work with their local governments to deal with local siting.

If you're living next to a turbine and don't like it then move. Have your attorney and realtor present the turbine owner with an estimate of your loss and if the turbine owner won't settle then sue.

If you lose, suck it up. Bad stuff happens to us sometimes. (I've almost been killed twice by drunk drivers.) No sense being miserable the rest of your life. Take charge of your life and do something other than grouse.
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Not true, Bob. Siting wind turbines too close to homes is a world-wide problem. In the UK they have recently put a moratorium on the construction of any onshore wind turbines. The noise issue is prevalent around the world, not just in the US. I suggest you google wind turbine noise and see what pops up. Most of those countries you sited are in the same boat that we are. People who live near wind turbines suffer the consequences of irresponsible wind industry siting practices.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Bill - Harbor Freight might be selling some shoddy merchandise?

Clutch my pearls and feel faint.

OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Anon - look at the satellite views. You will see that what you report is not an overall problem with wind.

If you're getting screwed in your area get involved with your local government and do something about it.

There are things which should not be sited close to existing residences. Coal plants, steel factories, body shops, landfills, and on and on.

What you've got your knickers in a twist about is property rights, not wind turbines.
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Required reading for Bob: http://www.acousticecology.org/wind/winddocs/AEI_WindFarmNoise2012.pdf
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Bob, you need to do some research on the siting of industrial turbines! There are a lot of homes that are closer to the turbines than we are. In many states in the US, the requirement is that turbines must be anywhere from 500 feet to a thousand feet away from a residence. Often the distance is determined by 3 or 4 blade lengths from the nearest property line. The nighttime noise is often 45 dBA nighttime and 55 dBA daytime, using the A scale for measurement. Believe me in a rural environment when ambient noise is closer to 20 to 25 dBA, that is LOUD! Incredibly, the C scale which measures low frequency noise is not included in the noise regulations. In fact, most of the regulations in the US date back to the 1980's and have to do with noise from industrial facilities in urban areas. Current regulations do not take into account the specific issues associated with wind turbine noise. The current noise regulations in the US do not protect citizens and the wind industry takes full advantage of the situation, lobbying against more reasonable regulations which call for between a mile and a mile and a half between a residence and an industrial sized turbine. No wonder small towns across the US are fighting wind energy and trying to keep them out of their towns. The alternative is to sacrifice ones home, quality of life, and peace of mind. No choice there.
william payne
william payne
December 16, 2012
Bob Wallace,

Alerts to possible altenergy scams under investigation.

http://www.prosefights.org/battery/battery.htm#iran
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
The International Wind Energy Development – World Update 2010 predicts that by 2020 wind power is expected to produce 9.1% of the world's electricity demand. The report projects an average global growth rate of 15.5% per year for new annual installations through 2015, resulting in expected total global capacity of 513.6 GW by 2015.

The US with 46.9 GW installed at the end of 2011 anticipates 305 GW by 2030.

Europe projects a growth of 93.9 GW at the end of 2011 to 230 GW - 265 GW by 2030.

China projects growth from 62.3 GW at the end of 2011 to 200 GW by 2020.

India projects growth from 15.9 GW at the end of 2011 to 108 GW - 165 GW by 2030.

Obviously the emerging, no, the very established consensus is that wind power is becoming a major electricity provider around the world.

Not just the consensus, the stark reality. Wind is the power for our times and for our future.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
No, Geoff. What you posted is a year to year plot of US installed wind capacity. Not worldwide installations.

And what that graph shows is how the US wind industry has been jerked around by Congress's inability to establish ongoing subsidy programs in an orderly, responsible fashion. Along with the 2010 downturn in installation due to turbine shortage. Demand exceeded supply until more factories were build.

Look at the graph closely. Try to understand what is shown. See how high the expected 2012 bar rises? See the rising green line? Those are exactly the opposite of "decline".

"Rise and Fall" in the title means something different than what you think. Read past the title.

--

And, now, you want to change the discussion to realized capacity/output? I suppose we can do that, but the end result is the same.

World Electricity Generation by Wind (in terawatt hours, TWh)(total for year

2002 36.723
2003 50.557
2004 61.476
2005 80.595
2006 99.687
2007 126.547
2008 163.683
2009 211.812
2010 262.563
2011 327.850

See, it keeps on going up. Opposite of decline. Same Wiki page.

--

Do you want to spend time talking about the fact that wind is not a 24/365 producer? True. But capacity output does not equal percentage of output hours. Spend some time and learn the difference.

Oh, and capacity is rising with newer technology. Best site wind turbines are now turning in capacity numbers higher than 50% and in low wind sites capacity is now exceeding 40%.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Anon, sorry but I did not remember you posting that you lived within a half mile of a turbine.

If you do live that close, I agree, it is too close.

My understanding is that current zoning/site guidelines call for a minimalism of 0.5 miles from turbines to residences. If turbines are still being installed closer in your area then your zoning agency is at fault.

That said, out of the hundreds of thousands of installed turbines I seriously doubt if even 0.01% are sited close to residences. If you would like to check you can view satellite views of hundreds of wind farms here - http://www.thewindpower.net/media_satellite_en.php
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 16, 2012
Bob, I have already. http://www.realclearenergy.org/charticles/2012/12/03/rise_and_fall_of_the_wind_industry_106792.html for the USA.

Might you please supplement your wind capacity figures with energy production figures, that is, actual performance versus name plate installed capacity.
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Bob, I answered your question above. Here is my comment again:
I live within a half mile of three turbines and I am telling you, the noise issue is a serious business. Every single time a wind farm is erected too close to homes, anti-wind activists are born. Originally, we supported wind industry until we experienced the reality of living next to these gigantic industrial sized turbines. These things do not belong near homes and that is the truth. If you have not seen the movie Windfall, I suggest you do. If you have seen it, I suggest you watch it again with the understanding that this documentary tells it like it is.

By the way, showing how many turbines have been erected just shows how successful a scam wind energy has been. Playing the "green card" has worked well for the industry. In the US people are wising up and it is about time. Chances are excellent the PTC will not pass.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Anon, answer the question please if you wish to be taken seriously.

--

And Geoff, please post your proof that the wind industry is in decline.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Installed wind capacity per year in MW

2002 31,180
2003 39,295
2004 47,693
2005 59,024
2006 74,123
2007 93,930
2008 120,903
2009 159,213
2010 196,630
2011 237,022

Installed capacity increased 20.5% from 2010 to 2011. Capacity roughly doubled in the three years following 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country#Installed_windpower_capacity_.28MW.29_2002-2011

That is a rapidly growing sector, not one in decline.
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 16, 2012
Bob,
You talk wishes, I talk measurements.
Santa does not exist. I spend about 2 hours almost every day surveying the world scene and about the same writing about calculations I have made. Do you?
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
After the research I have done and our personal experience of living with the turbine noise, Geoff's comments make perfect sense to me. Who's "bonkers" here?
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
Geoff, you need to get on line and look up some data on how much wind capacity is being installed around the world.

The opposite of "winding down" is what is happening.

There is no "emerging consensus ... that wind power is not for our times unless it is situated in places other than the ordinary to service niche markets". That's bonkers.
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 16, 2012
The stark relaity, the emerging consensus, seems to be that wind power is not for our times unless it is situated in places other than the ordinary to service niche markets. There, it can be a good technology, but as for taking over the World - sorry.
I'm struggling my way through the final drft of the IPCC AR5 for release in 2013. The more I read, the more confident I feel in writing the first sentence. I concentrate on the science rather than the politics.

If I was much younger and still in the workforce, I would have kept well away from wind power. Projections we made in the 1970s are showing as quite accurate. There is little appeal from a technical angle and the commercial side is simply not manageable in other than artificial economic worlds of subsidies, tax breaks, special deals. Show me a subsiddy scheme and I'll show you a fraudster (not you as a reader here, but throughout the world there are many).

Time to start winding down, as the world is doing anyhow?
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
I live within a half mile of three turbines and I am telling you, the noise issue is a serious business. Every single time a wind farm is erected too close to homes, anti-wind activists are born. Originally, we supported wind industry until we experienced the reality of living next to these gigantic industrial sized turbines. These things do not belong near homes and that is the truth. If you have not seen the movie Windfall, I suggest you do. If you have seen it, I suggest you watch it again with the understanding that this documentary tells it like it is.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 16, 2012
How far, exactly, do you live from a turbine, Unnamed Person?
ANONYMOUS
December 16, 2012
Frits, in my experience, and I live next to wind turbines, I can not sleep peacefully in my home or enjoy being outside of it due to the constant turbine noise. I have experienced negative health effects from the stress of living with the noise. Getting an annual paycheck from the wind company will not solve my problem unless it makes it so I can afford to move. In that case, I lose my home and have to start all over again. How is that a win win??
Frits Ogg
Frits Ogg
December 16, 2012
There are still a lot of chances for onshore wind. Look at the 1000 poles plan for the Netherlands: http://gtne.org/?q=node/521 . The benefits of Windenergy has to go to citizens around the turbines, not to unknown shareholders. Onshore wind with self-delivery doesn't need subsidy an has grid parity now. And wind will not raise in price in future.
ANONYMOUS
December 15, 2012
Lots of us out here wishing you a Chihuahua in your cup, Bob.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 15, 2012
You may have a dog in the fight Mike, but you seem to have left it at home.

An out of focus video of some guy sitting in his pickup is not proof that a turbine fell. One would normally furnish a picture of the fallen turbine. On his land.

Furthermore, so what?

Possibly one turbine fell down. Some time back one turbine in Scotland caught on fire.

At the end of 2011 there were 199,064 turbines installed. Tens and tens of thousands more installed by now. 1/199,964 = 0.00005%.

Your dog must be a teacup Chihuahua....
william payne
william payne
December 15, 2012
'I DO have a dog in this fight and my sympathies are certainly not with the wind industry.'

Video of New Mexico rancher neighbor of High Lonesome wind farm [ranch].

http://www.prosefights.org/wind/willardwind/video/20110910121006.wmv

Rancher claims High Lonesome wind turbine fell on his property.

High Lonesome Engineer Mike claims no fallen turbines.

http://www.prosefights.org/settlements/mike.mp3

?

Field trip link. http://www.prosefights.org/wind/highlonesome/highlonesome.htm
ANONYMOUS
December 15, 2012
It's a terrible thing that Congress has done to the industry.

I DO have a dog in this fight and my sympathies are certainly not with the wind industry. Turbine noise has compromised my home and invaded my private space. My property values have plummeted and I can not afford to sell. The wind industry has plowed ahead with the goal of sticking up as many industrial sized turbines as possible and making the most $$$ they can with each PTC extension. Let's face it; this is all about money. AWEA could care less about how these gigantic machines impact the individuals/families who have the misfortune of living next to them. Just go on the AWEA website and take a look at what little they have to say about turbine noise and most of it WRONG.
It is a terrible thing what Congress and state legislatures have done to the communities that are living with outdated and inadequate turbine noise regulations. If AWEA had their way, they would put these things as close to homes as possible while promising that the noise is like a quiet conversation, as in someone talking in your ear 24/7. It is time that people like you, Bob Wallace, understand that around the world people are fed up! Change is coming and if there is anything that people like me can do about it, it will not be an extension of the PTC. The only green thing about wind is the industry's desire to steal taxpayers money on an unproven, inefficient technology. From my perspective, solar makes a whole lot more sense.
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
December 15, 2012
Onshore continues to be potential wind source for power. Offshore can be supplement but not replace onshore wind power.
Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
What that graph illustrates is the uneven growth of wind capacity in the US largely due to the erratic nature of the subsidy program. The turbine shortage of 2010 probably adds in as well.

Congress has set up wind subsidies for short periods of time. That creates a rush to get turbines qualified before the period expires. There's a start-up lull with the new subsidy program. Time is lost because no new installations can be planned until the subsidy issue settled.

It's a terrible thing that Congress has done to the industry.

AWEA, the wind industry organization, has just proposed a longer time subsidy program with a total phase out of subsidies in five years. Full 2012 level funding in 2013, dropping to 90% of that value for projects placed in service in 2014, 80% in 2015, 70% in 2016, and 60% in both 2017 and 2018, ending after that.

The wind industry has been saying for a while that they see an end to the need for subsidies coming. It's a matter of getting manufacturing and installation infrastructure in place so that prices can drop.

Siemens just opened a turbine and blade factory in Arkansas. That eliminates a lot of shipping costs. That's the sort of thing that brings down the price and will make it possible to grow without subsidies.

Rumor today is that it is likely that Congress will agree with new subsidies. And likely the phase out plan.
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 14, 2012
Bob,
You might find this research interesting.
http://www.realclearenergy.org/charticles/2012/12/03/rise_and_fall_of_the_wind_industry_106792.html

The first graph shows that the annual growth of wind power in the USA has started to decline. This makes it hard to compare the cost of wind power used to make windmills with their energy output. At times, the output is zero and other forms of generation like fossil and nuclear have to make up the same amount that was lost when the wind dropped. This can drop to zero. Because it happens so fast, the best backup is expensive gas fired turbines. Each region has different economics depending on many factors, some large.

I have no dog in this fight. It matters not to me which form of generation is dominant, so long as it is efficient and undergoing continual improvement. However, taken to the very limits of full costing, wind and solar are so much more expensive than hydro, fossil and nuclear in most cases that they are not even in the fight. They are sustained by subsidies and by bad accounting in some cases and that is a situation that the realist does not accept for long.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Don't need to Bill. People in China objected to the pollution coming from panel manufacturers. That has zero to do with solar or renewable energy. That is totally about appropriate standards for manufacturing. China, in its early days of development, was extremely dirty. As many under developed countries tend to be. They are now cleaning up their acts. In fact, by cleaning up their solar panel manufacturing they can manufacture at lower costs. Some of the crap they were emitting was reusable chemicals that have industrial value. BTW, Bill, the Chinese government shut that pollution plant down. They are also cleaning up their lithium mining and processing. They hired an American company to head up the clean up.
william payne
william payne
December 14, 2012
Google 'solar pollution china riots'
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Short answers:

When the wind wasn't blowing then power came from other sources. Some were clean, such as solar, hydro, and storage. Some were dirty, burning fossil fuels.

The task ahead is to build more clean generation and storage in order to reduce CO2 producing generation.

--
Does wind generated electricity produce sufficent electrity to fuel wind turbine prodution?

My guess would be yes. 3.5% of all US generation is a boatload of electricity.

And solar probably now produces more electricity than solar panel plants consume.
william payne
william payne
December 14, 2012
Does wind generated electricity produce sufficent electrity to fuel wind turbine prodution?
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 14, 2012
And when the wind did not blow and wind power did not contribute, what was the CO2 emission to the atmosphere from alternative plants, many fossil-fuelled gas generators? The power produced by backup has to be accounted. We might not have burned less fossil fuel. Probably not, when you do a cradle-to-grave exrcise on both windmills and backups.
If you try to run a nation on wind power alone you will have near-instant chaos as vital services like communications, medical, military go into brown-out or black-out. Within minutes of a large wind drop. This has been known to put computers off line for days. That is observation, not belief.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Anon, the US got 3.5% of its electricity from wind during the first half of 2012.

That 3.5% from wind means that we burned less fossil fuel. Because we used some wind we pumped less CO2 into the atmosphere.

To me that's way, shape and form. No pipe dreaming involved. Just a huge need to install renewables much faster going forward.
ANONYMOUS
December 14, 2012
In my opinion, climate change is a real concern, but to expect that wind energy will help to solve the problem in any way, shape, or form is a pipe dream. People who say otherwise are the true "crackpots."
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 14, 2012
Bob Wallace,
I'm being respectful to you - there is no need to go vulgar.
If you have an argument against reverse causation (beyond a belief) then it is rather more scientific to examine the data and report it. Do you have a killer argument or not?
I've been involved in these matters at high level for decades and I do not comment out of ignorance. I am quite happy to spend the time on a well-structred argument, with supporting evidence, from you.
It would need, for example, to address this type of figure:
http://www.geoffstuff.com/Irregular%20windJ.jpg
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Geoff - please direct no more of your horse poop my direction.

You have no idea of the extent of my disdain for crackpots.

Thankfully you climate change deniers are now limited to about 10% of the US population. The rest of the world is not similarly afflicted.
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 14, 2012
For Bob Wallace,
In the world of statistical and economic modelling, one of the more prevalent gross errors is 'reverse causation'. Its existence meets disbelief from readers who lean on 'appeal from authority' - they often cover their faces with their hands like children and chant 'I do so wish you'd go away'.
However, I most certainly have crossed that bridge some 4 years ago (just as I have stood over the Rhine at Arnhem in post-war years, to live the expression).
As noted already, the European sector has been at the forefront, though the USA is somewhat better at camouflage. The influence of illegal green radicalism is starting to unravel in public and just now there are several senior people from Deutsche Bank remanded in prison for financial allegations in 2009, the year when much pattern fell into place with the Climategate emails. Billions, not just millions, or Euros have been illegally diverted in what will become one of history's greatest scams. If not for libel restraints, I could name person after person who has been acting illegally with State money, but more particularly with the money of gullible and uneducated people. I keep a quite large file. Russia has quite a few mentions as well.
I take all people on trust on first meeting and stay that way unless they give me cause to devalue them. I trust that you will not let this matter rest with a simple statement of disbelief, because another major complication has been the substitution of 'belief' for 'evidence'. You would show your mettle if you opened your eyes to reverse causation and assessed its probability.
If you have what you think is a killer blow to reverse causation in this instance, please let me now and I'll provide you with more detail.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
You're not really going to try to sell the idea that Europe's financial woes were caused by renewable energy are you?

That is definitely a bridge too far....
Geoff Sherington
Geoff Sherington
December 14, 2012
The equation is backward.
You should not write "The European market has suffered severely from the debt crisis, particularly in markets such as Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal".
The correct form is -
"The European market largely caused the debt crisis by the poor economics of abandoning reliable, establihed and cheap energy forms in favour of untested, uncosted, trendy alternatives."
Personally, I hope to see the many poor economists of Germany (which seems central) replaced by more honest people, both in intellect and in morals.
william payne
william payne
December 13, 2012
Listen to what Mike of High Lonesome wind farm says about maintenance problems.

http://www.prosefights.org/settlements/mike.mp3

When electonics parts fail, replacements parts may not be available?

Would wind generated electricity provide electric power enough to manufacture wind turbines?
ANONYMOUS
December 13, 2012
Gorn-detlef, Where I live in the US along the coast, there is a wind shear problem which make the turbine noise worse. Very often our turbines sound like a jet circling over head. Standing next to a wind turbine does not give one the sense of what it is like to hear the noise 24/7 or to be woken up in the night repeatedly with turbine noise. Turbine noise is an intrusion into ones personal space: one's HOME. Many individuals, like you, think they understand the issue because they stand under a turbine or near one for a short period of time. It takes about 2 weeks of living near the source to BEGIN to get the picture! Thanks for your comment, but please understand that you are making the same mistake many others do in trying to understand the serious nature of the noise issue.
Gorn Detlef
Gorn Detlef
December 13, 2012
I post from Germany. Here there are in some states limits of 500 meter or 2.000 meter between a Windpower plant and the next homes. In some states there are limits to the noise, so that a installations is also in 400 meter distance possible.

In the north of Germany many old windpower plants with f.e. 0,8 MW are replace through f.e. 2 MW plants. And in the south of Germany due to political changes in regional governments new wind power plants will be heavently installed in the next years.

Installations due to political change in France is one the way.

A wind power plant make nearly no noise. A stand under and in different distance - 100, 200, 300 Meter - of many wind power plants - i heard nothing. Due to unlikely environment in some installations your hear the plant - but ever under the possible lines.
ANONYMOUS
December 13, 2012
This article completely ignores the critical issue with onshore wind: NOISE. Where ever these industrial sized turbines are installed close to homes, public outcry follows. It is my understanding that the UK has decided to end all onshore wind development due to the serious noise/health issues that comes with wind energy. I believe Denmark has followed suit. For as long as wind companies insist on placing turbines too close to homes, onshore wind energy will fail. New markets may open their doors in the short term, but in the long term the unresolved turbine noise issues will force wind turbines off shore. Not only is solar cheaper but it does not come with the serious environmental concerns or noise/health issues that are associated with wind energy. Planning for older on onshore wind turbines to be recommissioned in Europe is not only an overly optimistic view, but also an unrealistic one. No one wants these huge and noisy industrial sized turbines in their countryside or in their backyards! Onshore wind energy is a dying technology and for good reason.

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Tildy Bayar

Tildy Bayar

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