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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Koch Brothers Fund Bogus Studies to Kill Renewable Energy

Elliott Negin, Union of Concerned Scientists
December 07, 2012  |  140 Comments

You can say one thing about the Koch brothers: They don't let the facts get in their way. Of course I'm talking about Charles G. and David H. Koch, the billionaire owners of Koch Industries, the oil, coal and natural gas conglomerate that's been dubbed the "kingpin of climate science denial."

Last summer, Richard Muller, a Berkeley physicist long skeptical of climate science, went off script and announced that his three-year, Koch-funded investigation verified that global warming is indeed real, is primarily caused by human activity, and is even worse than the climate science community thought.

Did Muller's conclusions prod the Kochs to reconsider their hardline position against wind, solar and other renewable energy--our best bet, besides energy efficiency, to combat global warming? Hardly. Koch's minions merely stepped up their ongoing disinformation campaign to scuttle renewable energy on economic grounds.

Take the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and Heartland Institute, two Koch-funded organizations with a history of attacking efforts to address climate change. ALEC, a stealthy lobby group whose corporate, nonprofit and state legislator members ghostwrite and then attempt to implement "model" legislation, played a key role in killing the Midwest Greenhouse Gas Reduction Accord, a six-state regional cap-and-trade agreement. Meanwhile, Heartland — an ALEC member that hosts annual conferences deriding climate science — is probably best known for posting a not-so-subtle billboard in Chicago last May comparing people who accept the reality of global warming with "Unabomber" domestic terrorist Ted Kaczynski.

More recently the two groups made news when the Washington Post reported ALEC's board of directors adopted a Heartland-crafted model bill that would repeal state standards requiring utilities to ramp up their use of renewable energy. The model legislation, the "Electricity Freedom Act," claims these requirements--currently on the books in 29 states and the District of Columbia — will dramatically drive up electricity rates.

That claim, however, is bunk. In fact, renewable electricity standards have not significantly increased rates. In some cases, rates have even dropped a bit. But more on that later.

Garbage in, garbage out. 

To make its case, ALEC — whose members include major coal, oil and electric utility industry companies — cites analyses by Suffolk University's Beacon Hill Institute commissioned by the Koch-funded American Tradition Institute and "free-market" state think tanks associated with the Koch-funded State Policy Network. The analyses examine current or proposed standards in more than a dozen states, including Colorado, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota and New Jersey. The studies were partly funded by, you guessed it, the Koch brothers.

The fact that the Kochs funded the studies doesn't automatically mean they're biased. In this case, however, Beacon Hill research economist Michael Head essentially conceded to Washington Post reporter Juliet Eilperin that he and his colleagues fudged their findings.

That's right.

Beacon Hill, Eilperin reported, "assumed that the Energy Information Administration's projected renewable energy price estimates are too low, and that cost-containment measures embedded in state policies will fail." Head told her that he and his co-authors doubted the cost caps, which place a ceiling on how high monthly consumer electricity rates can go to meet renewable standards, would take effect. "We just left it out so we could provide the actual analysis of the policy itself," he explained.

How convenient.

A closer look at a sample Beacon Hill analysis of a state renewable electricity standard shows that this sleight of hand is just one of a number of ways Head and his colleagues play fast and loose with the facts.

Jeff Deyette, a senior energy analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), dissected a September analysis Head et al. did of a proposed increase in Michigan's renewable electricity standard from 10 percent by 2015 to 25 percent by 2025, which was on the November ballot. Besides excluding the cost cap--a key component of the policy — Deyette found that the Beacon Hill analysts:

  • ignored the fact that the state already has a standard in place, enabling them to inflate the costs of implementing the stronger standard;
  • made questionable assumptions about renewable energy technologies--often citing out-of-date, controversial or unsubstantiated material to support their assertions--instead of using real-world cost and performance data from local projects; and
  • failed to factor in the new standard's benefits, including economic development, job growth, cleaner air and reduced carbon pollution.

Beacon Hill — an official sponsor of this year's Heartland climate science-bashing conference — conducted this particular study for the Michigan-based Mackinac Center for Public Policy. The center, the largest state-based free-market think tank in the country, is a Koch grantee and a member of the Koch-funded State Policy Network. Not surprisingly, the center consistently denies the reality of global warming.

This is not the first time Beacon Hill energy analyses have been questioned. Last year, Michael Conathan, director of ocean policy at the Center for American Progress, a progressive, Washington, D.C.-based think tank, reviewed a Beacon Hill analysis of the potential for offshore wind along the New Jersey coast. According to Conathan, the study — which was heavily promoted by Americans for Prosperity, a political advocacy group founded by and largely funded by the Kochs — "misses the mark on both sides of the ledger by dramatically overstating the costs and underestimating the economic benefits of offshore wind."

The facts on the ground tell a different story

Despite the Koch juggernaut's scare tactics, some evidence is already in, and so far the impact of renewable electricity standards on rates has been, for the most part, negligible. In late October, Steve Clemmer, UCS's director of energy research, surveyed rates in three Midwestern states. This is what he found:

  • Wind and other renewable technologies have reduced wholesale electricity prices in Illinois by displacing coal and other energy sources that have higher operating costs, saving ratepayers an estimated $177 million in 2011 alone, according to the Illinois Power Agency.
  • Minnesota's standard of 30 percent by 2020 for the state's largest utility, Xcel Energy, and 25 percent by 2025 for all other utilities has had little or no impact on rates for eight of 14 companies that submitted a report to the state Public Utilities Commission. Xcel Energy customer rates actually dropped 0.7 percent from 2008 through 2009, and the company calculates that rates will increase a mere 1.4 percent over the next 15 years. Five other utilities reported modest wholesale rate increases ranging from 1 percent to 6.6 percent in 2010, and one utility reported a 16 percent increase.
  • From 2008 through 2010, Wisconsin's 10 percent by 2015 standard nudged rates up only 1 percent. By 2010, renewables were supplying 7.4 percent of the state's electricity, nearly double their contribution in 2006.

A national 25 percent by 2025 renewable electricity standard also would be quite affordable. In 2009, UCS calculated that such a standard would lower annual consumer electricity rates by 4.3 percent, saving ratepayers across the country $64.3 billion on their electricity and natural gas bills by 2025. Meanwhile, a 2010 study by the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) estimated a 25 percent standard would cost less than 2 percent more a month for a typical U.S. household — an average of $2.37 to be precise. Even that would be a small price to pay to help avoid the worst consequences of global warming, and a poll published last May found that Americans would be willing to pay more than five times that amount for clean energy.

Besides the fact that we can afford to transition away from fossil fuels, keep in mind that we can't afford not to. As I pointed out last month in a Huffington Post blog, global warming, hands down, is the biggest long-term threat to the economy we face.

The good news is renewables have been a bright spot in an otherwise gloomy economy. Over the last five years — with the help of state renewable electricity standards, stimulus spending and production tax credits — U.S. wind capacity has more than tripled and solar capacity has more than quadrupled, boosting employment and attracting private investment. Even with a deep recession and slow recovery, U.S.-based wind turbine, blade, tower and gearbox manufacturing has jumped 25 to 60 percent since 2005.

Likewise, the potential for non-hydro renewables is tremendous. They currently generate only about 5 percent of U.S. electricity, but by 2030 they could produce more than 40 percent, according to a 2009 UCS study. That would more than replace the share currently generated by coal, which is still responsible for roughly 75 percent of U.S. utility sector carbon emissions. Looking even further down the road, NREL concluded earlier this year that today's commercially available renewable technologies could adequately generate 80 percent of U.S. electricity by 2050.

But you won't hear any of that from the Koch propaganda machine.

Elliott Negin is the director of news and commentary at the Union of Concerned Scientists.

This article was originally published on Huffington Post and was republished with permission.

140 Comments

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David Coles
David Coles
January 3, 2013
The KOCH Brothers will be sorry when the crude oil from Saudi Arabia stops flowing into the U.S. ports. The STRAITS of HORMUZ is being set up now for a big blast!
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 20, 2012
Fred-Finn,

Mark Twain reported in "Innocents Abroad" that the Trans-Egypt Railroad was buying mummies "by the ton or by the graveyard" to fuel its locomotives.

Various critics argue that Twain was just trying to be funny. He was known to try to be funny and some of us think rather successfully but his autobiographical tale was quite different from his novels.

Whatever the case I was recently in receipt of some contemporary material that supported the story. Mummies were so plentiful that parts and pieces became high fashion decorations in the homes of the wealthy in England.

Crematoriums today generate power from turning the dear departed into ashes. Hard to top the Swedish Vikings taking on the PETA crowd by burning dead bunnies for heat but they do not say they generate electricity.

A purported cow manure-powered car was making some kind of run years ago but that used only the methane from anaerobic digesters. A speedster is expected to set a world steam speed record at a NASA raceway and later at Bonneville Salt Flats this year that can use the whole pie or anything else that burns.

Best, Terry
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 20, 2012
--------" . I know no more about that and never saw any follow-up but they would surely need some new engines for their locomotives if they got any bids from mummy suppliers."--------

Mummy suppliers? No wonder they decided to abandon the project.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 20, 2012
Fred-Finn,

"You are going to need a very long extension cord for your Nissan"

And a fire extinguisher.

The Canadian Pacific Railroad sent out a request for bids from biomass suppliers maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I know no more about that and never saw any follow-up but they would surely need some new engines for their locomotives if they got any bids from mummy suppliers.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 20, 2012
Shafflo,

"People are good at convincning themselves and others of any given position"

BINGO.

I was a technical adviser on many feasibility projects. A single one was notable for accuracy, honesty and completeness - an astounding feat.

The report advised ending work on the task as a waste of time and resources that was already superseded by the current state of the art.

The issuer of the report was a commercial defense contractor. I wondered if they would ever get another contract, why they even bid on the contract in the first place.

Unlike all other government contracts, all feasibility reports always came in on time and on budget even though the cutthroat competition often led to losses for commercial defense contractors. The investment was considered well worth it.

What all reports said, save the one, was that the project the government suggested was realistic and we have the best possible technology to achieve the task.

Academic contractors were not really different in that regard. They were only better in generating paper and obfuscation.

Best, Terry
Louis Shaffer
Louis Shaffer
December 20, 2012
The simple way to compare these sources is to look at large numbers. Let's build and run (in our heads) a few gigawatt energy plant. What will it cost to build? What will it cost to operate? What will it cost to close it down (and deal with any waste)? How clean is it (health and environmental impacts)? What is the potential / likelyhood that these costs will go down? People are good at convincning themselves and others of any given position, mainly because they selectively choose which of these factors to conviniently ignore.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 20, 2012
You are going to need a very long extension cord for your Nissan, unless you want to stay within 50 miles of your remote desert location.(as I as I seem to recall about a 100 mile range)

Or----you could put up the extension cord in the form of overhead electrical lines, and power your diesel/electric railroad locomotives directly with electricity as is done in Europe. You don't have to change everything all around====and you still have diesel onboard generation capacity if you need it. Diesel/electric railroad locomotives have been in use since the 1940s.

That way---we do not need to change the automobiles or the trains that we already have in service now.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Fred,

>Let's compare sugar cane ethanol to PV. At 800 gallons/acre, a hybrid/electric getting 50 mpg would go 40,000 miles. A 1 acre 200kw PV farm in the US southwest, would produce about 438,000 kwh/yr. This could power a Nissan Leaf (which gets 3 mi/kwh), for 1,314,00 miles.

Ethanol may still be a little bit cheaper, but PV is a much more efficient use of available land.<

A used pizza box can be turned into ethanol or methanol and take up no land at all. Gasoline gets 200 mpg in an organic rankine cycle external combustion engine. One can reasonably figure that the ethanol will get somewhat less, methanol about the same. How does that compare to your figuring?

On the other hand, the same pizza box can be powdered and burned in the same external combustion engine without need for refining. I know of no figures for mi/lb of powdered pizza boxes, turkey guts or cow manure but I bet they would be less costly as well as helping the environment instead of costing it.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Geez, Fred, accusing me of being against biofuels is worse than accusing the wind and solar crowd of being actual environmentalists.

I haven't been against biofuels since I was a first-grader in a desert valley with a one-room schoolhouse making fun of a pioneer lady burning dried cowpies (she preferred to call them buffalo chips) to keep warm through the hard winters . I was just part of the mob then like those praising intermittent power today.

"Mob - many heads, no brains" ~ Benjamin Franklin

I would guess you, Fred, wouldn't mind if the manure was gathered fresh before the volatiles escaped and most of the fuel value was lost to poison the land, water and atmosphere.

Can you really object to using everything from municipal sewage to municipal solid waste to kindling for forest fires to invasive plants and animals for fuel?

I will grant you it would take away some of the market for agriculture but is it not worthwhile?

Best, Terry
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 19, 2012
fred-linn wrote:

"Sugarcane yields about 8X the amount of ethanol per acre that corn does."

That's just not true. Corn on the high end produces some 400 gallons/acre, whilst sugar cane produces some 800 gallons. That's 2X, not 8X. And the states that you mentioned may not be able to produce ethanol economically. I.e. Hawaii already had a large sugar cane industry, but the numbers for ethanol worked out to $20/gallon. So they import it from Costa Rica. There are no ethanol plants in Hawaii, despite the 10% ethanol mandate. There has also been a 110MW biodiesel plant for the past 4 years, designed to promote a local biofuel industry. Yet, all of the feedstock is still imported.

And even if the states which are producing large amounts of corn could switch to sugar cane, you would still need some 200 million acres of land. We now use about 38 million acres of land for the corn used in ethanol. Converting that much more land to ethanol production WOULD MOST DEFINATELY cut into food production.

Let's compare sugar cane ethanol to PV. At 800 gallons/acre, a hybrid/electric getting 50 mpg would go 40,000 miles. A 1 acre 200kw PV farm in the US southwest, would produce about 438,000 kwh/yr. This could power a Nissan Leaf (which gets 3 mi/kwh), for 1,314,00 miles.

Ethanol may still be a little bit cheaper, but PV is a much more efficient use of available land.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2012
Terry----it is not the least surprising that you(and a LOT of other people believe that biofuels take away from the food supply. That is exactly what the Koch brothers want you to believe(their fortunes are based on petroleum).

The Kochs(and other petroleum interested parties) have spent a whole lot of time, effort and money to discredit biofuels.

Why? Because the ONLY reason for continued petroleum use is our own inertia-----our own failure to change our ways. We have created a petroleum market monopoly---a de facto, cartel monopoly. Biofuels would end the monopoly market position of petroleum.

There are a lot of very rich and very powerful vested interests whose continued wealth, power and influence depend on maintaining the status quo of the exclusive control of basic-----such as petroleum reserves. Greed. And those interests will lie, cheat, steal, buy, destroy anything that gets in the way of having their way.

Look around. People are being manipulated. And our dependence on fossil fuels is a major factor in the manipulations.

Biofuels(and renewable energy in general) represents the course of freedom and democracy in our need to be free of economic and political tyrany and manipulation.

That is how I see things stacking up. I hope you will step back, and look at things in the light of critical inspection---not the jingles and platitudes. I hope you will agree with me---it is in YOUR best interests(along with all other common people)that I speak out and act.

If you don't then I have failed. But, no matter how many times you fail---you only have to succeed once to be a success.

I'll keep trying to get people to listen.

The way I see the world----I am like the colonial patriots trying to stand up to King George and the might of the Empire. And, to a great extent----the issues are very similar.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 19, 2012
Terry, again against my better judgement I again interact with you.

(I'm snowed in so I've got a good excuse for wasting time.)

You simply post crap. Pure and simple crap. Over and over.

Wind and solar resources are neither trivial nor unreliable. Both wind and solar are available in enormous amounts and while they are variable, they are reliable. The Sun has been shinning for billions of years and will keep on, most likely, for a few billion more. The wind is driven by the Sun.

Here - read this and see if it gives you some idea of how much potential energy we can get from wind and solar.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030

The US currently gets 0.4% of its electricity from 'wet rock' geothermal. That percentage will climb with new plants in Nevada and California coming on line. There is a recently discovered resource in Utah which is likely to be tapped over the next few years.

Natural gas reports were accurate based on the technology of the time. Then we found new ways (for better or worse) to extract more gas than we previously could. We are not likely to find unknown forests and piles of turkey guts to run biomass turbines.

I believe you are the best example I can find of why we should throw away the word "baseload". It seems to keep you from thinking of how one builds a dependable grid based on the energy sources in highest demand and cheapest to convert. You start from a base of 'always on' and dismiss wind and solar because they can't be controlled.

What we have to do, what we are doing, is starting with wind and solar. Accepting the fact that they are not always on and not under our control in terms of times of production. But building based on their massive availability and low cost and then filling around the times they are not producing is the task at hand.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Bob,

I want no slack.

Reading on your end would be helpful but is not mandatory.

Dealing in reality is also helpful but that is up to you.

>I am not willing to spend time looking up numbers that will show you the upper limits of biomass fuel, run of the river, or wet rock geothermal. That stuff is easily found and you know how to do the google.<

There are no numbers, especially for "wet rock geothermal," which does not exist.

There are all manner of estimates which only a fool takes as gospel. Most are just copied from others with as little knowledge as the copier.

Anyone of us in an advanced stage of decay can remember decades ago, unless Alzheimer's has taken over, when the newscasts were filled with gospel truth that natural gas underground would be exhausted within 2 to 10 years. We also know that wind and solar are relatively trivial sources and very unreliable and should never be thought of as anything else than as filler at best.

Baseload is where it's at. Baseload is not a four-letter word but it is not hard to see why those pushing expensive, unreliable trivialities would hate the word.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 19, 2012
Terry, you aren't enough older than me for me to feel that I need to cut you very much slack. Let's just set that excuse aside.

Now, let me deal biomass generation and baseload generation and I'd like to be done with this conversation, it's a time waster for me.

The 20th Century grid was largely based on "always on" generation.

The 21st Century grid is likely to be mostly supplied from variable input sources such as wind, solar, wave and tidal. Those are the energy sources we have in the greatest abundance. And the cheapest to convert to electricity.

Baseload generation describes the grid we are leaving behind. We need to think about how we put together a new system of meeting demand with inputs, the largest of which we can't control.

There will be some 'always on' input in the form of geothermal, biomass and run of the river hydro, but those will be minor players.

I am not willing to spend time looking up numbers that will show you the upper limits of biomass fuel, run of the river, or wet rock geothermal. That stuff is easily found and you know how to do the google.

If the problems preventing dry rock geothermal from being a player are solved then we can add it to the list. Until then it's an unproven idea like cold fusion.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Bob (continued 2)

>Biogas is more valuable than biomass...It can fill in the wind/solar gaps.How old are you Terry? Just for reference.<

Reference to what?

I will give you a clue. My little sister is 72 this month. A half-sister is in her 90's. The older in calendar years is younger in spirit because of far fewer miles it appears to me.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Bob, (continued)

The waste is gathered from the surrounding area. I don't know the extent. We saw deliveries by a large semi and by people bringing their yard waste. We did not see any of the approximately 5% of willow cuttings that are grown for the purpose delivered. McNeil encourages growth of scrap trees in case of shortage of waste. There never has been one. Natural gas could still be burned for power but has never been needed. Burlington, VT, is concerned with the environment and is very proud of its old plant. Others not so much. They think it better to burn fossil fuels.

I guess you don't want to know about the many conversions of coal-burning plants and even burning of mountains of turkey feces, guts, and leavings for power. The technology for burning poultry waste was imported from England and has been fought tooth and nail in this country. The company doing it is going on to other things and the turkey and chicken and other poultry waste is used rather to poison land, water and air. Doesn't seem good to me somehow.

A fellow I met who finally got approval to burn non-edible alfalfa parts for generating electricity after 15+ years of struggle with regulators. Actually, the Minnesota Alfalfa Growers Co-Op had long abandoned efforts to build a planned 135MW power plant but now will be able to sell fuel pellets and/or briquets. Meanwhile Keith Poier has left for less demanding struggles while the Co-Op has been reduced from hundreds of farmers in a multi-state area to a small handful of local farmers.

Don't you purported environmentalists give a damn about the environment and the destruction of life on the planet? Is there no room for anything that remediates the environment?

(continued 2)
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Bob,

>Show me the math that proves we could multiply the "aging McNeil Generating Station in ultra green Burlington, VT" enough times to produce a significant amount of the world's energy.<

No such math exists.

Math is not science or engineering. It is logic.

The distinction is not immaterial. Einstein complained bitterly about mathematicians and vociferously denied he was a mathematician, said he would prefer to be a plumber.

It is an oddity that the very math professor Einstein collaborated with later in developing his theories of relativity utilizing the professor's non-Euclidean geometry was a subject of scorn during Einstein's schooling. Einstein wanted to know how the real world worked, not prove that A was not B or that 2 followed 1. It was fine with Einstein that the bizarre math that developed from efforts to prove Euclidean geometry by showing non-Euclidean geometry was not logical (e.g.; that a curve is shorter than a straight line, that parallel lines do meet) proved quite logical. That was not Einstein's thing. If the tool worked, he used it.

No duplicate McNeil Generating Station will ever be built. Technology has advanced. Certain waste cannot be utilized. There is a sign in the fenced yard where residents are invited to drop off their yard debris for supplementing commercial deliveries that asks painted wood not be included. All manner of construction and other debris can be, and is, utilized today when the regulators are up-to-date on the state of the art (wouldn't that be novel). Well when the regulators are somewhat more advanced than those in our northeast and don't think it is better to burn coal than waste.

(continued)
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 19, 2012
Hi Fred,

>Corn is 3X as productive per acre as soya. If you want to replace the protien that goes into the food production stream from DDG(and ethanol) production----you are going to have to plant about 2X as much acreage as corn--and pay 2X as much.<

Yeah, but what will the corn farmers do without welfare entitlements? :-)

How does your soya compare to giant alfalfa? :-)

I suspect the alfalfa is a frightening GM that might reduce use of land, irrigation, chemicals and poisons with vastly greater production but also might eat the planet or something certain environmentalists tell us. Regular old garden variety alfalfa is far better at fixing nitrogen than other legumes and leaves very deep roots behind but has extra nutrition requirements.

Frankly my faith, as differentiated from rational thinking, has always opposed food crops for fuel but I betcha we could have a productive discussion in a different forum.

Thank you for a wee sliver of light in the darkness hereabouts.

Best, Terry
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2012
John Bronson----" Hi Fred,

Your dogs must be pretty amazing to able to grow sugar cane in the Midwest. But even if they could, they would still need 250 million acres. That might work if we gave up beef. You think Pa will give up his meat?"----------

Sugarcane yields about 8X the amount of ethanol per acre that corn does. Sugarcane grows just fine in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, California, Arizona, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. Where we can't grow sugarcane, sugar beets offer similar yields and can be grown anywhere in the US where there is adequate soil and moisture............including Alaska. Sugarcane and sugar beets both produce exactly the same product, sucrose. Sucrose can be processed in the same fermentation and distilling facilities as corn.

As for producing ethanol from corn...........ethanol is a by product. The end result of producing ethanol from corn is DDG(dried distillers grain), high protein, nutrient dense feed supplement for animal feeds that replaces soy meal at about 1/2 the cost. DDG not only is fed to meat producing animals----it is also important for dairy, and used in many human consumed products as well. It is even used as the basic feedstock for vitamin, mineral and protein supplements. Let's say that Grandpa has a big juicy steak dinner. He has a steak, baked potato with sour cream and butter, a salad with blue cheese dressing, a dinner roll, a glass of milk, and a bowl of ice cream for dessert. Every single thing Grandpa had for dinner was made using DDG at one point or another.
Corn is 3X as productive per acre as soya. If you want to replace the protien that goes into the food production stream from DDG(and ethanol) production----you are going to have to plant about 2X as much acreage as corn--and pay 2X as much.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 18, 2012
Terry - "Are you seriously denying the aging McNeil Generating Station in ultra green Burlington, VT, does not exist as well as all the modern conversions with modern technology?"

Show me the math that proves we could multiply the "aging McNeil Generating Station in ultra green Burlington, VT" enough times to produce a significant amount of the world's energy.

Produce at least one study that demonstrates availability of feedstock for hundreds of thousands of 50MW "John C."s. Actually 2,315,027 McNeills if I didn't make a math error.

We could take all the gerbils in the US, build a big wheel, hook it to a generator and make electricity. But, as they say, it would not scale. The world uses 20,279,640 GWh/yr.

We've got biomass plants here. They run on our sawmill waste. But we can only fuel them up to a small percentage of our demand.

Biogas is more valuable than biomass. Biogas is dispatchable. It can fill in the wind/solar gaps. Burning it 24/365 would be a waste of a valuable resource.

--

If you've got something else to say, say it. Don't expect me to visit the Great Orange Satan. I am not entering that "feet to the fire"/tackle your own quarterback madhouse again.

--

How old are you Terry? Just for reference.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob, (continued)

How about some sanity in environmentalism:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/08/1098005/-Environmentalism-Gone-Sane-in-Oregon

Guess not.

Apologies in advance for some unkindness but we are going around and around with you repeating fantasy constantly despite refutation. I am very old, tired, had my brains scrambled by a fall and now get regular pounding headaches, we were looted by a garage when we broke down on the highway and all to learn a bit of truth about new technology that is denied loudly by those who know the least. We visited the kids too but that is beside the point. :-) Kindly try to forgive if you would.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Hi Bob,

>>There is not enough available land and water to produce more than a small percentage of our overall energy needs.>We can make some energy from sawmill waste, landfills, feed lots and poop-plants. Good fuel for fill-in generation for wind and
solar. Would help us produce power when it's wanted. Match supply and demand.>We can make some energy from sawmill waste, landfills, feed lots and poop-plants. Good fuel for fill-in generation for wind and solar. Would help us produce power when it's wanted. Match supply and demand.

But a replacement for either coal or natural gas? Highly unlikely.<<

Are you seriously denying the aging McNeil Generating Station in ultra green Burlington, VT, does not exist as well as all the modern conversions with modern technology?

Maybe you should inform Bernie Sanders, former mayor of Burlington, that he is full of horseshit too.

(continued)
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 18, 2012
Terry. There is not enough available land and water to produce more than a small percentage of our overall energy needs.

The demand for land and water for food production will increase as the world's population increases.

As our climate gets weirder and weirder we are likely to have more frequent crop failures which means that we will need to allocate even larger amounts of land for food production as we play crop roulette.

A lot of the corn that failed this year because of the drought didn't get knee high.

Some of the crop waste to fuel schemes don't pencil out due to the cost of moving material to processing plus fields would get stripped of their organic matter increasing water and fertilizer requirements.

We can make some energy from sawmill waste, landfills, feed lots and poop-plants. Good fuel for fill-in generation for wind and solar. Would help us produce power when it's wanted. Match supply and demand.

But a replacement for either coal or natural gas? Highly unlikely.

Try not to think "baseload" and I think you will be able to see how biogas can be an excellent fill-in but only a puny always-on power source.

We might, some day, figure out how to make fuel from algae. Maybe we'll genetically engineer super-plant that can grow on rock outcroppings.

But we cannot build our path on "maybe" and "perhaps". We have a problem to solve right now and we need to take the tools that are proven to work and put them into play.
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 18, 2012
Hi Fred,

Your dogs must be pretty amazing to able to grow sugar cane in the Midwest. But even if they could, they would still need 250 million acres. That might work if we gave up beef. You think Pa will give up his meat?
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 18, 2012
-------" Take ethanol for example. The US would have to grow some 500 million acres of corn, in order to replace total gasoline consumption."--------

Then don't replace gasoline---use a 50/50 blend.

-----" .....500 million acres of corn......."-----

Then don't use corn.

We can make ethanol from sugarcane, sorghum, potatos, cat tails, agave cactus, wood.............almost anything at all of an organic nature.

For pete's sake-----my dogs show me more problem solving original thinking than I'm seeing around here.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
John,

"The problem with biomass is there simply isn't enough land area to produce enough biomass. Take ethanol for example. The US would have to grow some 500 million acres of corn, in order to replace total gasoline consumption."

John, John, John, the incredible waste in growing corn should be anathema to anyone even pretending to be an environmentalist. Waster is free and everywhere. There is even vast pollution of the oceans with waste. Some would prefer to see whole forests burn down and pollute the land, water and air rather than gather the kindling to generate power.

"There simply isn't enough garbage."

I beg your pardon. There is an ocean and atmosphere full of the stuff, let alone the land.

Be good to Mother Earth and she will reward you beyond reckoning. Be mean to Mother and she can be a mass killer far beyond the imagination of mere humans.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Hi Fred,

>"Baseload" is a misnomer.<

Sorry, Fred, baseload is a perfectly good eight-letter word instead of two four-letter words. You can look it up in most dictionaries.

From Smart Planet:

"Why baseload power is doomed"

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/energy-futurist/why-baseload-power-is-doomed/445

If you want to believe these nitwits that like to call themselves smart, feel free. I prefer better mythology, like the Norse myths. They thought the goddesses were the equal of the gods. I like that. We men hate being inferior.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob, 'What 'cheap and plentiful baseload alternatives' are readily available for most use?' [sigh] Go down to your city dump, look around your home or your yard if you have one or your street. Help yourself to the biomass. It's all free. Some even use sewage consisting largely of human feces. China may be about to add a bit of sophistication and cleanup of its 'night soil' used for eons with all the pathogens. Okinawa is most advanced in using its waste for power and fertilizer because it can't dump it in the ocean and shipment to other Japanese islands is expensive. The ancient Aztecs dumped their crap in the water and ate the blooming algae. Think you can top that for tight recycling? My son, the engineer, did. He advised skipping the algae. Why waste waste heat? It's even freer than trash than waste and sewage. Here is one notable greenie, among others, doing just that: http://electratherm.com/ The list is endless and, of course, includes the massive heat generated by our own planet we are constantly trashing. Why not green the planet instead of trashing it while chasing moonbeams? Best, Terry
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 18, 2012
terry-hallinan-70211 wrote:

'- Any rational reason for spending large bucks trying to make intermittent energy close to baseload when cheap and plentiful baseload alternatives are readily available for most use. Utilizing waste even helps clean up the environment.'

If it were only that simple, it would already be implemented.

The problem with biomass is there simply isn't enough land area to produce enough biomass. Take ethanol for example. The US would have to grow some 500 million acres of corn, in order to replace total gasoline consumption.

And where I live, we do have a garbage to energy plant that serves about 1 million people. Yet it only generates 70 MW, whereas peak demand is some 1,200 MW. There simply isn't enough garbage.

Geothermal works if the hot rock is close to the surface. But if you have to drill down 2 miles, it gets expensive. Also, those wells are only good for about 20 years before pouring cold water on the hot rock cools it down. Then you have to wait for another 50 to 100 years before the rock heats up again.

PV has the advantage of providing more energy per square meter. It also can be deployed right where it's needed like rooftops, street lights, etc. It's also scalable - down to a wristwatch, or up to a MW utility sized power plant. Cost is being reduced as production ramps up. If the cost trend continues, PV will soon be cheaper than any other energy source.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 18, 2012
"Baseload" is a misnomer. There is no need for "baseload" power 24/7 from any power source. That assumes a "baseload" demand. That is for the most part, non existent. You don't use a TV 24/7---you watch it, then turn it off. The "baseload" is determined by the usage. It is the usage/generation rates that determine the need for storage.

My home system has solar with battery storage, shoreline(grid), and 7.7 Kw on board generation capacity---and 6.5 Liter diesel main. I have everything you have in your sticks and bricks, including washer/dryer, two air conditioners, water heater capable of showering a German Shepherd, a Weimaraner, and me back to back without running out of hot water. I can pretty much do anything I want, anywhere I want, anytime I want.

My horribly complex and expensive "baseload energy storage" consists of three 650 amp/hr lead acid batteries(one of which is not even hooked up---never have needed it, it is just a reserve) and a 40 gallon LPG tank that lasts about 4 months(or longer depending of weather and proximity to the ocean-----the dogs need baths much more often if they have been getting into salt water). And a 20# LPG tank in reserve(also, never been used).

If I get tired of the view----or the grass gets too long, I don't mow grass-----I start up home and move it to somewhere else.

With a little bit of planning and adjustment I've never been short of energy for anything I wanted to do. In fact, I usually have far more available than I need.

Potable water availability is much more of a problem energy.

And clean, fresh water availability is going to be much more of a problem for everyone else in the future. The day is coming when water will be more important than anything else----because we are not taking care of what we have.
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 18, 2012
I know my dreams of solar power will mostly succeed, because out of necessity at some point either it will or some new form of energy will come into existence that I can't really conceive of at this time. It has to because even natural gas will eventually run out in the quantities we need it.

Which is the reason I believe we need to spend some money now to make both solar/wind work and develop a cost effective energy storage means, is because I want that reducing supply to last as long as humanly possible. I want future generations to have it available for both things I think we will always need it for as well as for anything I can not anticipate now. Because of the foresight of people like President Theodore Roosevelt we have forests that provide lumber and reserves of other resources both for the economy and for the enjoyment of the people.

We need to once again have that long-term view. That is my true dream at this point. A return to the long-term view.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 18, 2012
Terry, going against my better judgement let me try one more time with you...

What "cheap and plentiful baseload alternatives" are readily available for most use?

Please give evidence of cost and availability in adequate amounts to replace fossil fuels.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob,

I comprehend what you post quite well.

What you fail to do is show:

- Any reasonable evidence your daydreams will ever succeed.

- Any rational reason for spending large bucks trying to make intermittent energy close to baseload when cheap and plentiful baseload alternatives are readily available for most use. Utilizing waste even helps clean up the environment.

Have a great christmas and New Year.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 18, 2012
Terry, you'll have to excuse me from this discussion. I really don't understand what you are talking about a significant portion of the time.

And when you say thins like " That is what I take the nonsense about baseload energy being obsolete for. I want lights at night as well as during the day, not just when the sun is shining or the wind blowing." then it is clear to me that you aren't reading what I'm writing with any comprehension.

You have a nice day....
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Hi John-Bronson,

"To expect solar to work without storage, is somewhat of a double standard."

I surely don't. No energy provider works without storage but mass storage that routinely works through long-term massive blackouts is a whole different kettle of fish.

Pumped storage dams seem to be the best available but have limitations in geography. I remember them being built aggressively by San Diego G&E in the 1950's or so but the purpose was mainly to allow for uneven demand between day and night without blackouts.

"One possible solution is hydrogen."

Iceland's adventures with hydrogen are a true tragi-comedy. I won't deny the possibility but there is already a far better option that may be nearing commercialization.

Maybe you will look at the eye candy that Bob obviously didn't.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20121216/SPORTS/121209812/1040?Title=106-year-old-Ormond-Beach-speed-record-targeted

Until it races, nobody can say that the "Speed Demon" will even run but the Navy is a big believer as is DARPA and more recently the U.S. Army. Unfortunately only ladies of the night seem able to penetrate the national security wall for more details. :-)

The ideas are as old Mark Twain's reporting of mummies being used to fuel the Trans-Egypt Railroad but modern technology based on the Organic rankine cycle engine adds real meaning. I have talked to the inventor of the car's engine and can't get him off the refined fuel (liquid) idea but there is no end of even commercial applications of powdered biomass being used much like natural gas.

Here is an aging blog about a company attempting to use powdered biomass "as natural gas." The demos were spectacular but interest minimal from the power lobbies that favor those who pay them for some reason:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/08/24/895772/-Cooking-With-Out-Gas
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob,

Potter Drilling may not be the most reliable source on geothermal drilling for obvious reasons.

I have the link to Foro Energy from which the New Scientist got its quick and dirty but not the link to a detailed scientific paper on the subject.

Thank you for the effort.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob, (continued)

Scientific truth is ephemeral. It changes constantly with new discoveries and new theories. Theological truth is eternal - and is always wrong. That is what I take the nonsense about baseload energy being obsolete for. I want lights at night as well as during the day, not just when the sun is shining or the wind blowing.

Your reading from some scripture rather than facing reality as it is best known by technical and scientific experts is not helpful to me nor to those who would like to know how it is as best we can know.

The worst examples are pronouncements about the limits of energy available from various renewable baseload energy sources. Without bothering to try to look it up and utilizing the very fallible memory of an old man, a European commission estimated years ago some 97% of geothermal energy was available from moderate and low temperature sources. There has been astounding scientific advances since that time as well as technology for prospecting for same though it still remains quite primitive. You ignore it entirely as best I can tell.

You don't believe the resource? Why not? Kindly state why. I will listen though never promise to agree. If two people agree on everything, at least one of the two isn't thinking.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 18, 2012
Bob,

"For some reason which I don't comprehend you seem to take personal offense that the energy world is moving away from the concept of "baseload" energy"

Don't mistake your personal animus at being told the facts of life for mine.

Until such time as people only want power when it is convenient for the grid to supply it and only in amounts the grid is able, baseload power will not be obsolete in any way. Your upgraded grid remains dangerously obsolescent last I heard and is surely not a smart grid.

"I find your 'denial', 'gun nut', and 'Nazi' stuff inappropriate and offensive. Make your case based on facts, please."

Just facts, Bob. Why do you find them annoying? For the most obvious, many years ago I played a correspondence chess game with a member of the American Nazi Party. You got all kinds. One fellow decided not to play because he felt his time could be better utilized otherwise since he was on death row.

(continued)
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 17, 2012
The oil and gas industry have a massive storage capacity. To expect solar to work without storage, is somewhat of a double standard.

One possible solution is hydrogen. As long as there is a source of electricity and water, hydrogen can be produced. This hydrogen can be stored, and later used to refuel vehicles, or power fuel cells connected to the grid.

Hyundai has already introduced a hydrogen vehicle, and other major manufacturers plan to follow.

The power plant of the future could be a hydrogen refueling station with a PV array as it's power source, on site storage, and grid tied fuel cells.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 17, 2012
Terry, I have to admit that I sometimes find your posts difficult to understand.

Wherever had you ever gotten the impression that I am a climate change denier? Certainly not because I continually post about renewable energy and electric vehicles I would assume.

As for your straw man argument about the inability to fully predict the future, use it as a scarecrow in your garden next summer.

But, all that said, what in particular do you mean by " your post itself explodes your first unequivocal claim"?

My first claim, as far as I can tell from comment #11 was "Using the cost from plants put into operation prior to 2010 doesn't help us a lot in making decisions going forward into 2013."

Perhaps you would explain your meaning?
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 17, 2012
Bob,

Did no one ever tell you there is global climate change happening?

The most diligent, unbiased and knowledgeable researcher cannot predict the future nor divine the problems of technological advance. There are extreme changes in weather patterns during my lifetime and they can only accelerate.

Incredible technological achievements are commonplace but relatively mundane problems can prevent implementation.

I was startled to learn recently that optical computers are a fact and in use by the military. The problem is nobody knows how to standardize production of materials. Manufacturing problems may prevent mass production for decades, even centuries, of a technology that would instantly make electronic computers as obsolete as a covered wagon at a NASCAR rally. The hybrid silicon/optical chips are not the same at all.

"Predicting is very difficult - especially about the future." - Yogi Berra.

At least Yogi Berra understood that problem.

BTW your post itself explodes your first unequivocal claim.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 17, 2012
Here's a link that describes the idea of using lasers for geothermal drilling.

Be sure to read down to what Potter cautions about getting over optimistic.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628955.900-laser-drills-could-relight-geothermal-energy-dreams.html
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 17, 2012
(#96 continued...)

Budischak, Sewell, Thomson, Mach, Veron, and Kempton
Cost-minimized combinations of wind power, solar power and electrochemical storage, powering the grid up to 99.9% of the time

Journal of Power Sources 225 (2013) 60-74

You can read the paper here -

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1NrBZJejkUTRYJv5YE__kBFuecdDL2pDTvKLyBjfCPr_8yR7eCTDhLGm8oEPo/edit

"We won't even update our horribly obsolescent national grid and you propose a smart, continent-wide national grid that has never been built and would continue to require supplementary fossil fuels under the most ideal conditions while ignoring baseload energy which is plentiful, cheap and far more potent than all other energy sources."

We are, in fact, upgrading our grid. We may never build a continent wide grid in North America, but we are almost certain to increase the transfer of power between the multiple grids now in operation.

We are improving our transmission turning a dumb grid into a smart grid. We are adding renewables while dumping coal. Unfortunately we are adding a lot of natural gas generation but it is likely that the rate of NG generation will drop as gas prices rise and cheaper storage alternatives appear.

For some reason which I don't comprehend you seem to take personal offense that the energy world is moving away from the concept of "baseload" energy and looking more constructively as the task as supplying demand as it occurs. You'll have to deal with that problem.

We are closing "baseload" generation such as coal and nuclear. We aren't likely to install large amounts of new "always on" generation such as enhanced geothermal unless we make some significant advances in drilling/fracking technology. The new generation we are adding are variable and/or dispatchable.

Now, I find your 'denial', 'gun nut', and 'Nazi' stuff inappropriate and offensive. Make your case based on facts, please.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 17, 2012
Bill,

I have lost the link to a mathematician/geophysicist [I seem to recall his Ph.D. was in math] who proposes using lasers and optics to get through some of the difficult drilling problems in geothermal. His small company has some contracts with big players but I know little more about what he might be accomplishing. The math is intimidating and the company private so there is not the usual hype and polish.

It is people like that I prefer to listen to above sun worshipers who want a window on the future and claim to know all about the mysteries of the planet we stand on.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 17, 2012
Terry - The fringe intermittent renewables can do the job. Period.

Researchers at University of Delaware used four years of weather and electricity demand/load data in one minute blocks to determine 1) if a combination of wind, solar and storage could meet 99.9% of demand and 2) the most cost effective mix of each to meet demand.

The data for 1999 through 2002 came from the PJM Interconnection, a large regional grid that services all or part of 13 states from New Jersey to Illinois. This is the world's largest competitive wholesale electricity market, serving 60 million customers, and it represents one-fifth of the United States' total electric grid.

They used currently available technology and its projected price in 2030. The included no subsidies for wind and solar in their calculation. They did not include hydro, nuclear, tidal or other possible inputs. They also did not include power sales to and purchases from adjacent grids.

They found that by 2030 we could obtain 99.9% of our electricity from renewable energy/storage and the remainder 0.1% from fossil fuels for about what we currently pay "all-in" for electricity. The all-in price of electricity which includes coal and oil produced health costs currently paid via tax dollars and health insurance premiums.

During the four year period there were five brief periods, a total of 35 hours, when renewables plus storage were insufficient to fully power the grid and natural gas plants came into play. These were summer days when wind supply was low and demand was high. The cheapest way to cover these ~7 hour events was to use existing natural gas plants rather than to build additional storage.

(to be continued...)
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 17, 2012
Bob, In essence you did leave baseload renewables, the only hope for ending reliance on fossil fuels, as little more than an afterthought but it is flat untrue I accused you of saying baseload should be discarded. The fringe intermittent renewables cannot do the job. Period. No fancy figuring can change facts about the state of technology. We won't even update our horribly obsolescent national grid and you propose a smart, continent-wide national grid that has never been built and would continue to require supplementary fossil fuels under the most ideal conditions while ignoring baseload energy which is plentiful, cheap and far more potent than all other energy sources. You remain in denial. I have had equally intelligent conversations with gun nuts who want to put more guns in schools for safety and an American Nazi who thought we needed more cooperation rather than the dreadful competition (from Jews I presumed) of capitalism. Blinders that allow no deviation from doctrine of the faithful don't seem to go anywhere. I don't accuse. I just call them the way I see them and let anyone speak for themselves as they see fit. I am after all a Democrat - a very old one. Best, Terry
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 17, 2012
Hi:

"Bill,

Is it at all possible you would consider the words of Rep. Jerry McNerney, math Ph.D. and wind energy entrepreneur before discarding baseload energy?"

You accused me of saying, I think baseload should be discarded. I SAID NO SUCH THING!! PERIOD!!

.....Bill
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
"Stop with the paper tigers!! Who said anything about discarding baseload. We need all forms of renewable energy yesterday by decades."

I wouldn't call a math Ph.D. and wind energy entrepreneur a paper tiger when he remarks on the advantages of baseload green energy.

This bull about needing all forms of energy means more money for the big pigs at the trough and a few leavings at best for the hungry young 'uns.

You need the lean but not the fat.

An American company has been operating a cellulosic ethanol plant in Japan that utilizes solid municipal waste for years and sells the ethanol on the open market.

It trained for years to get build a production ethanol plant adjacent to a city dump in California but couldn't get funding despite a government grant that required matching funds.

It has moved to Mississipppi, I think, and is trying again with a government grant that actually includes a bit of cash.

I don't know if it's a go now but things are looking up in South Korea.

Think it's better to ditch the trash that can't be recycled in the ground and use corn for ethanol while hoping for a good wind occasionally?

I don't.

But that's the way it works in our modern plutocracy where them as has gets and the hell with the planet.

Best, Terry
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
"Stop with the paper tigers!! Who said anything about discarding baseload. We need all forms of renewable energy yesterday by decades."

I wouldn't call a math Ph.D. and wind energy entrepreneur a paper tiger when he remarks on the advantages of baseload green energy.

This bull about needing all forms of energy means more money for the big pigs at the trough and a few leavings at best for the hungry young 'uns.

You need the lean but not the fat.

An American company has been operating a cellulosic ethanol plant in Japan that utilizes solid municipal waste for years and sells the ethanol on the open market.

It trained for years to get build a production ethanol plant adjacent to a city dump in California but couldn't get funding despite a government grant that required matching funds.

It has moved to Mississipppi, I think, and is trying again with a government grant that actually includes a bit of cash.

I don't know if it's a go now but things are looking up in South Korea.

Think it's better to ditch the trash that can't be recycled in the ground and use corn for ethanol while hoping for a good wind occasionally?

I don't.

But that's the way it works in our modern plutocracy where them as has gets and the hell with the planet.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Correct, Bill.

No one has ever suggested that we limit our grid supply to only one or two sources of supply. The more different types of input we have, the less variability.

Economics will mean that some sources will get more use than others and some sources might even not be tapped. We don't know what that mix will look like 20, 40, 60 years from now because we can't know what new technology might appear along the way.

The concept of "baseload generation" is falling away because many of the cheapest ways to produce clean electricity are not available 24/365. The future grid is being built on the concept of being able to supply whatever power is desired, when it is desired. Some 'always on' generation such as geothermal and run of the river hydro will be part of the input to fulfill demand, but we are not likely to build an 'always on' grid supply as we did in the past.

Efficiency is clearly where a lot of our efforts should be made. It's often much cheaper to eliminate the need for a watt than to produce that watt.

And would someone please bring batteries with about 2x as much storage to market so that we can get moving faster on getting rid of gasmobiles?
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 14, 2012
Hi: 'Is it at all possible you would consider the words of Rep. Jerry McNerney, math Ph.D. and wind energy entrepreneur before discarding baseload energy?' Stop with the paper tigers!! Who said anything about discarding baseload. We need all forms of renewable energy yesterday by decades. As more and more solar, wind, geo etc. are brought on line with storage or over 'peaked' by design, remaining baseload can be slowly reduced. The grid can be 'remade'. The goal should be to relegate O&G to mfg only energy consumption.. and that's a first goal not the endgame... Get rid of O&G for all transportation. What a milestone that would be!!!! And a REAL stab at energy efficiency would be VERY helpful as well.. .....Bill
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
The thermal troughs or ponds originate with experiments using the Dead Sea by Israel.

I was wondering how long it would take to bring them up.

They are still intermittent despite the claims. Japan's imagineered solar satellites would have been fully baseload. Only problem is they are not possible with today's technology like most imagineering.

I tried to get a look at a multi-axis wind turbine installed in Massachusetts for experimental purposes. The inventor, an accountant of all things, was not cooperative but has sold his invention to the Army and others.

Theoretically, at least, these would be a vast improvement over the ubiquitous prop jobs, capturing both very low wind currents and withstanding hurricane force winds to still generate power. The trouble is they still would not provide baseload power. Even an improved prop job passed from Germany to the U.S. and finally to a Japanese beer brewer because it bypassed GE's patent. Because GE was offended for not getting a cut, the better turbine could not get certification and consequently no one would insure a wind farm with such a turbine. I don't suppose the beer brewer stopped brewing beer to get into the wind business but there is a different kind of wind if you add beans with the beer that is baseload.

Lot to know about things. :-)

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Here's another interesting tidbit from the U Delaware paper...

"Over four years, generation from fossil fuels would have been needed only five times in summer months, at only about one-third of the total system generation capacity. That fossil fuel capacity would be met by natural gas."

One-third of total generation in gas deep backup. We got 31% of our electricity from natural gas in the first half of 2012. Looks like the NG generation component might already be largely built. And we'll be building more as we retire coal and nuclear plants.

We should be able to mothball those existing and paid-off gas plants and call them back into service about once a year for a few days.

--

Thermal with solar that Fred brings in is another way of lowering variability and cost not considered in the paper.

GE is researching wind turbine blades constructed with lightweight metal frames covered with fabric. They anticipate being able to decrease blade cost 25% to 40%. Another cost dropper from "worst case" paper.

Then it's looking like we're soon going to have solar panels that produce much better in indirect light. That means extension of the solar day at each end and a lot more production on cloudy days.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 14, 2012
GemmaSolar has a 20Mw concentrating solar thermal plant that uses phase change salt storage to store energy and generates power 24/7 using steam turbines. This plant is online and in use now--(and has been for about 1 year) near Barcelona, Spain.

A second, 50 Mw plant was under construction at the same time, and nearing completion. I do not know the status of that plant---it should also be up and running by now.

The molten salt thermal storage for the 20 Mw plant is sufficient to keep the turbines running for 15 hours----and the storage system is modular, more capacity can be added at anytime by simply bolting more thermal storage into the system at any time.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
You do seem to be right about Germany also having a small demonstration enhanced geothermal plant. The Wiki page seems to not be aware of it.

Demonstration plants. Not viable on a commercial basis today.

---

Facts are stubborn things. Read the research, it's full of facts.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
Bob,

There is also an EGS plant in Germany but it is all beside the point. EGS is nearly as fanciful as your paper dreams of making intermittent energy into something it is not.

I know you have good intentions but you know where the path paved with good intentions leads. T.S. Eliot was surely wrong about the world ending with a whimper.

Facts are stubborn things.

May you and yours all have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Sorry, Terry. I made a mistake.

The single 1.5 MW demonstration plant which is connected to the grid is in France, not Germany as I incorrectly reported.

But the point remains. We do not have the boring and fracking technology needed to produce electricity from enhanced geothermal at an acceptable price. When. If.

You can continue to make this claim -

"Intermittent power sources are ultra-expensive, unreliable, surely need lots of "fill-ins" and will never replace fossil fuels without quantum leaps in technology."

- but it is absurd.

Please return to comment #76 and read it carefully.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
Sorry, Bob.

Denial works best for the likes of the Koch brothers, who can feed the gullible most effectively with their resources and well developed spin machine.

I have made no claims that are not factual - unlike yourself.

"Enhanced geothermal is an unproved technology. Except for one small experimental facility operating in Germany..."

The edited and revised HDR (Hot Dry Rock) was first successfully demonstrated by France.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CD0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fengine.brgm.fr%2Fweb-offlines%2Fconference-Electricity_generation_from_Enhanced_Geothermal_Systems_-_Strasbourg%2C_France%2C_Workshop5%2Fother_contributions%2F38-slides-0-4_Lutz.pdf&ei=pjbLUL6JIabg0QGVvICYDQ&usg=AFQjCNGkLDet6y0ZaLj_DHeIswyaUrHnSQ&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.dmQ

I give you credit for recognizing EGS remains a research project. That has nothing much to do with conventional and distributed geothermal power.

"Biogas is best used as dispatchable fill-in"

Biomass is best used as a dry powder in dust burners or in pellet or, better, briquet form to replace the beloved and lethal fossil fuels.

Bernie Sanders' Burlinton, VT, green oasis has shown the way to a clean future with its aging biomass power plant converted from natural gas - the terrible fossil fuel that may truly be worse than coal despite the current craze.

Intermittent power sources are ultra-expensive, unreliable, surely need lots of "fill-ins" and will never replace fossil fuels without quantum leaps in technology.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Sorry, Terry. I do not find your claims credible.

We are currently converting some existing dams to be generators. But there are not enough and the price is not low enough to make them major players. There are a couple of good studies on line which report the amount of electricity we could reasonably get from existing dams and run of the river.

Remember, hydro now is now a bit less than 8% of our total electricity supply and we've dammed all the major streams available. We need 20%, 30%, 40% players to replace fossil fuels and at the moment that's wind and solar.

If someone has a wave harvester that works and works at an acceptable price we'd see it installed in great numbers. Just because someone has had a buoy in the water for 15 years does not mean that they have solved the problem. People are spending millions of dollars looking for wave solutions. If someone had a solution it would be getting built.

The median LCOE for wind is 5 cents and falling. The LCOE for new geothermal is around 8 cents.

Again, what is unproven cannot be considered. When and if.

Biogas is best used as dispatchable fill-in.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
Bob,

"we can build no new hydro cheaper than we can install wind"

Wrong. Some hydro need not be built even. A company trying to utilize dams in existence for power was defeated by regulators that insisted they had to be responsible for the aging dams they had not built and wanted to use only for small hydro projects. Wave energy beats the hell out of wind. One autonomous power buoy off the coast of New Jersey has been generating power for 15+ years and has survived all manner of storms, including hopefully the recent Superstorm. But we be into the chimera of solar and wind because that is where the hype is loudest and the big bucks are most plentiful.

"Geothermal is more expensive than wind and solar"

Simply not true. Distributed geothermal is quick and cheap. Chena Hot Springs hopes to reduce its low-temperature, small-scale project to producing power for a penny a kw/hr. Even if that doesn't work out, it is still cheaper than any other energy source.

Large scale conventional geothermal entails lengthy development time, substantial cost and considerable risk but still offers cheaper power than any other with Mother Earth doing the cooking.

Wave energy has not been costed out because lack of resources has delayed development. Oregon and others are about to correct that.

For a bit of fun and fact, try this:

http://www.docudharma.com/diary/31576/hey-pig-man-why-not-use-your-pig-stink-for-growing-tomatoes-or-baseload-energy

Know a better way to keep pig farming from stinking and Mother Earth happy?

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Enhanced geothermal is an unproved technology. Except for one small experimental facility operating in Germany we have no enhanced geothermal. We lack the technology to drill and frack.

Potter has been working on a spallation drill for a couple of years. Someone else is working on using lasers. Another group is trying to frack using CO2. It's all experimental at this time.

When/if the engineering problems are solved we will be able to determine price.

When/if we determine price we can adjust our input mix to use enhanced geothermal.

When. IF.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
Bill,

Is it at all possible you would consider the words of Rep. Jerry McNerney, math Ph.D. and wind energy entrepreneur before discarding baseload energy?

http://mcnerney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=296&Itemid=

I am not enchanted (to put it mildly) with EGS but I am appreciative of those who are truth tellers even when they are politicians.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 14, 2012
Terry I find your comment confusing.

Avoiding the worst of climate change is the issue. We must get off fossil fuels as much as possible as soon as possible.

The authors used wind and solar only for a reason. Adding in what hydro, tidal, geothermal, wave and biomass/gas that is available makes sense but wasn't germane for this study. The issue is whether we could reasonably build a reliable grid supply with large inputs from variable wind and solar.

That said, we can build no new hydro cheaper than we can install wind and will be able to install solar. Geothermal is more expensive than wind and solar will drop below geothermal. Tidal and wave, we do not yet know how they will price out.

Now I don't know if we will ever beam solar down from satellites, harvest wind from kites or use any of the other unproven technology ideas. Nor do we have any idea how expensive they might be, but as I said -

"This is, of course, a 'worst case' solution for getting rid of fossil fuels. It's based on today's technology. Each improvement in harvesting or storing renewable energy will lower the cost."

Now, I'm going to assume that you wrote carelessly and did not actually mean to accuse me of lying....
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 14, 2012
Bob,

You speak of global warming or climate change, for openers. Don't you really believe it? Are you just fooling us for some arcane reason?

Statisticians are the best truth tellers or the worst liars on earth. Both you and they "prove" falsehoods as readily as serious folks show advantage.

What have you against cheap, plentiful baseload renewables compared to your high cost, unreliable, intermittent energy?

We get a significant portion of our power from Niagara Falls. Believe it or not, there don't seem to be fish capable of jumping to the top and the falls are not really intermittent though they are variable and seasonal. How exactly is human life to be extinguished by utilizing power from Niagara Falls instead of hoping for solar satellites that will zap down energy to humans like Scotty did the crew the Enterprise to planet surfaces while nuclear disaster is waiting to strike or coal goes unmined?

The hype doesn't fit reality and no imagineering can change facts.

Best, Terry
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 13, 2012
"simply cannot replace fossil fuels "

Wrong.



Researchers at University of Delaware used four years of weather and electricity demand data in one minute blocks which gave them actual time measurements of how much wind and solar were available and how much electricity the grid was using during each minute interval.

The data for 1999 through 2002 came from the PJM Interconnection, a large regional grid that services all or part of 13 states from New Jersey to Illinois. This is the world's largest competitive wholesale electricity market, serving 60 million customers, and it represents one-fifth of the United States' total electric grid.

They used currently available technology and its projected price in 2030 and using the historical data to determine the least expensive mix of wind, solar and storage which would keep the grid powered at least 90% of the time.

They found that by 2030 we could obtain 90% to 99.9% of our electricity from renewable energy and storage and the remainder from fossil fuels for about what we currently pay for electricity. The "all-in" price of electricity which includes coal and oil produced health costs.

After billions of simulations using differing amount of wind, solar, storage and fossil fuels they found the best solution was to over-build wind and solar and at times simply "throw away" some of the produced power. Building "too much" wind and solar turns out to be cheaper than building more storage.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/take/coming-soon-100-renewable-power/296

This is, of course, a 'worst case' solution for getting rid of fossil fuels. It's based on today's technology. Each improvement in harvesting or storing renewable energy will lower the cost.
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 13, 2012
"Trivial, as you put it, is simply market share at the moment"

Bill, you may be Humpty Dumpty in Alice's wonderland for all I know but words in our world do not have any meaning or your choice.

If you were selling pet rocks once, you might have had a significant share of a market segment with a trivial product that benefits few but the sellers. A life-saving drug for a very rare disease, on the other hand, would of necessity have a very insignificant share of the drug market but be of enormous value.

Solar and wind, despite the vast hype and spending, remain pitifully poor contributors to energy supply because of both their intermittency AND unreliability AND high cost that necessitates heavy subsidies from rate payers and taxpayers. They simply cannot replace fossil fuels and hog dollars better spent on baseload renewables that are plentiful and cheap and could easily replace fossil fuels.

Best, Terry
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 13, 2012
Hi: "The relatively trivial unreliable solar and wind are indeed expensive compared to baseload renewables but eliminating the best is the same game the others are playing." Trivial and unreliable? Boy, you have no grasp of concepts at all do you.. Trivial, as you put it, is simply market share at the moment which is small not trivial. The amount of time one spends having orgasism's is a small amount of time compared to the time in an entire year, but I think most people would agree the event is NOT trivial even though small as a percentage. Wind is not unreliable but intermittent. Two very different words. I suggest you look them up.

.....Bill
terry hallinan
terry hallinan
December 13, 2012
"electricity from alternative sources is very expensive."

Your own figures tell a very different story, cliff-caven. Geothermal is among the cheapest.

The relatively trivial unreliable solar and wind are indeed expensive compared to baseload renewables but eliminating the best is the same game the others are playing.
ANONYMOUS
December 11, 2012
".....But how many people will do things to really offset the move from a 100 watt to a 8 watt light bulb? Will they now turn on 12 more lights? Will they build on to their house so that they have room for more lights? Buy extra refrigerators?...."

Bob_Wallace- Your argument makes no sense. First, what you say is that you think most members of society are too stupid to figure out that they can possibly save lots of money on their utility bills by switching to newer types of electrical appliances. Then you go on to claim that even if these same dim-wits somehow figured out they could save lots of money by changing out their electrical appliances, and managed to do so, they would not actually reduce their total energy consumption because the lower utility bills would just encourage them to wantonly waste more power by leaving lights on or buying unnecessary refrigerators.

Do you seriously believe this? I personally know quite a few people that became wealthy on their own after starting out in life from modest means. And they all have one common trait. They are all extremely frugal.

As for the entity that has the most to gain financially from continued use of large amounts of fossils fuels due to low efficiency of electrical devices and vehicle engines, it is actually state and federal governments. Vehicle fuel sales are heavily taxed, as are gas/electric utilities. With such heavy tax penalties, wouldn't a person be dumb for excessive use of gasoline or electricity? These are really taxes that penalize "stupid" people while adding to government revenues. And isn't that what you really want?
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 11, 2012
Best to not overplay Jevon's Paradox when it comes to energy conservation. Ask yourself what sacrifices most people might be making now due to the size of their utility bill.

Some people may be adjusting their thermostat a bit. Some may be a bit more likely to turn off the light when they leave the room. If those behaviors change there will be a small increase in electricity use.

But how many people will do things to really offset the move from a 100 watt to a 8 watt light bulb? Will they now turn on 12 more lights? Will they build on to their house so that they have room for more lights? Buy extra refrigerators? Turn their TV on louder? Cook their food longer? Turn up the heat on their electric blanket?

The kWh price for electricity is not likely to drop. People are going to have a little more money in their pocket after they pay the electric bill if they get a more efficient refrigerator. I doubt much of those savings will be spent to buy more electricity.

Extra driving, nope. Might there be a little rebound if the cost of gas dropped? Yes. Will people go out and drive for a few hours each day just because gas prices fall? Nope.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 11, 2012
Processing links and info in comments 66 onward above. Good stuff. I agree about LCOE data and being careful to compare apples to apples. That's why I offered a source with a link for others to follow that documents its methods in detail and is not partisan or even US-centric. I would like to see DoE and EPA and the energy industry get together and expand the transparent cost database into a definitive and authoritative tool that becomes a mandatory reference for policy-makers. External costs should get wrangled over in the light of day and then populated in the database and updated as better data comes in.

On the topic of efficiency, I agree that there is room for dramatic improvement and it keeps marching onward. However, there is an offsetting historical phenomenon called "Jevon's Paradox" where increasing efficiency leads to increasing rather than decreasing consumption. For example, as LEDs replace incandescent bulbs, people tend to install more lights and feel less guilty about leaving them on. Same with improving the MPG of cars. As the MPG of cars has gone up, so has the distance driven by the average driver/car. People still have the same amount of disposable income and spend the part freed up from their energy bills on more energy-consuming technology/behavior. Increasing efficiency has the ultimate effect of increasing standard of living more than of reducing consumption. Energy intensity on a per capita basis is a key metric for urban planners. Perhaps someone wants to look it up, but I don't recall that it is making any dramatic moves in the US. Per EIA, the average annual energy use per person in the US, a "Functional Unit" = 300M BTU = 317 GJ = 52 barrels of crude oil equivalent energy.
John Ure
John Ure
December 11, 2012
@cliff-claven

You need to be very careful when presenting comparative LCOE data because it can be calculated in a multitude of different ways ie the variation in the component costs used to make the calculation can be significant. It will not be a valid comparison unless you are sure that the same formula has been used everywhere.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 11, 2012
The NREL conducted a highly detailed analysis of the nations rooftops in 2008, they accounted for roof angles and other structures and a host of other factors and they found that the nations rooftops could support adequate solar arrays to produce 819 terra watt hours or ~22% of the nations electricity with solar panels at 2008 efficiency levels. Any ground based arrays are in addition to this. Here is their report http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy09osti/44073.pdf It is in fact far easier to integrate solar rooftop arrays in the urban environment then large fossil fuel stations which have large space requirements and have significant local adverse health effects if placed near or in population centres. Many people present a strawman argument by trying to show how difficult it would be to supply the countries entire needs with one technology. It is a fallacy, even in the smallest off grid installations like a cabin or a yacht a single technology approach is unusual, most use a combination such as solar/diesel or solar/wind/batteries to provide the system requirements. The likelihood is that we will end up with a diverse portfolio, something along the lines of; 10-15% solar, 10-20% wind, 10-15% hydro, 10-20% other renewables (tidal, wave, biomass, geothermal etc), 10-20% natural gas, 5-10% coal and 5-10% nuclear. There will obviously be variation in the regional mixes however such a diversified approach will improve grid stability and significantly decrease the need for major investment in storage technology and/or spinning reserves despite the large total amounts of renewables.
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 10, 2012
@Cliff
Of course there will be increases in PV efficiency, but the big number is in energy consumption efficiency. To give you an example, I just replaced a 19" tube monitor that was drawing 65W, with a new solid state unit that draws only 8W. Solid state lighting for buildings, street lights, parking lots etc., can save about 80% in energy use. Outdoor lighting can also incorporate PV, and eliminate the need for wiring altogether. Smart buildings that turn off the lights when rooms are not in use. Energy efficient appliances, etc. Probably with the technology available today, NYC could reduce power consumption by 86%. What will be available 10 years from now? We probably can't even imagine that.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 10, 2012
We currently get our electricity from a variety of sources. Coal manages to provide a bit over one third (36%) but that will continue to drop.

Rooftop solar is valuable beyond it's simple input. It arrives when the grid is generally most needy. It arrives at the point of use thus lowering load on transmission, which is already stretched for NYC.

Where do we get the other 86%? Well, a new study just arrived on my screen.

The authors took four years of weather and electricity demand data from a large regional grid called PJM Interconnection, which includes 13 states from New Jersey to Illinois and represents one-fifth of the United States' total electric grid.

Using this actual data they ran billions of simulations using differing amounts of wind, solar, storage, etc. to determine the least expensive mix of supply inputs and storage that would provide grid needs with nothing but renewable energy.

They found that by 2030 we could convert to all renewable energy and the cost of electricity would be roughly what it is now.

The surprising (to me)thing they found is that the most affordable strategy involves building significantly generation that one would think needed and simply curtail large amounts of that energy at times. That turns out to be cheaper than building lots of storage.

http://phys.org/news/2012-12-solar-power-paired-storage-cost-effective.html
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 10, 2012
@john-B. Thanks for the link to the NYC story. Now that's a nugget. This is empirical data and a disclosed methodology that can be evaluated (see the embedded link in the story to http://nycsolarmap.com/). It would be hard to achieve the theoretical coverage of all the favorable roof surface area until we have the technology to spray PV solar collectors on like paint and with 100% contiguous coverage. But this is a good benchmark for an ideal maximum with a given level of PV efficiency and could be scaled up as efficiency improves. Comparing theoretical rooftop from the model to actual rooftop solar energy output for the growing numbers of sites that have that data could yield a normalization factor to adjust the prediction. It is also worth noting, in line with the very first post above, that some folks want to emphasize favorable-sounding terms like "49.7% of summer peak power" while the number not mentioned is 14% of year-round power. One also has to consider opportunity cost. Putting PV solar on everything within certain parameters of slope and roughness means you lose other options for that space (trees & gardens, concentrating solar and hot water heaters (very popular in Europe and should be used more over here), pools, tennis courts, helipads, etc.. Much of high-rise rooftop is HVAC units, so would probably need to build essentially another roof above them for solar PV mounting. So the extreme urban solar rooftop makeover for NYC gets us 14% of our power and maybe some more with future increases in PV efficiency. Nothing to sneeze at, but what do we do about the other 86%? I am not an enemy of solar. I am not an enemy of R&D. I think offering prizes is a better approach than payroll research. I support improving efficiency within rational cost boundaries were there is positive energy balance and a good business case for payback of the costs. I support pricing in externalities when it is done evenhandedly for the costs of all energy options.
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 10, 2012
Hi: LOL... I love it!! Defending the "K" brothers as if they are the poor free market underdogs just trying to do a better job than the clumsy government!! LMAO... Fantastic!! Lets not forget that they are trying to privatize public education, would love to see "colored" bathrooms again, that they are the offspring of a father who was one of the founding fathers of the, "John Birch Society", that they represent a "mind set" of poster children for Dystopian World Elitist pigs... nah.. they just want to see us use the most cost effective energy, so WE can spend the least amount of our money... that's all... they are really good guys...

.....Bill
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 10, 2012
Since it is 1/2 of peak, a little less then I remembered. Probably read a different article that used a total instead of peak.

My own system runs about 150% of peak usage or 50% on a peak use day. I love watching my meter going backwards when the A/C is running full tilt on a 90+ degree day with scattered light overcast. It will out produce the A/C usage for about 8 hours on a sunny summer day, so that in my opinion means I am benefiting one of my neighbors use of their A/C during the peak hours and contributing the ever so small part of keeping the utility companies from having to turn on a peak power plant.
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 10, 2012
The numbers for the NYC study showed 2/3 of the buildings would provide 1/2 of daytime peak:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/science/earth/16solar.html?_r=0
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 10, 2012
I am trying to remember the article, but New York city did a study of solar potential and determined that solar could provide a rather high (I think it was like 35% of their electricity by using available roof-tops). Reducing fuel usage by 35% is a huge savings in fuel that can be used for something else. And that was using today's technology for solar. Today we are around 21% efficiency for cells (less for panels), but labs stuff has demonstrated both 40% efficiency cells and multi-spectral cells which allow collection for greater parts of the day (if nothing else) combining the two eventually will lead to cells that produce probably at least 3 times as much energy as we can generate today. Even if that only brings the total energy available to a 50% percentage, that is 50% less fossil fuels we use and that much more we have to use for things solar just is not likely to be viable for (jet aircraft and Main-Battle-Tanks come to my mind). I want to conserve as much fuel for the future as possible. We no longer need to be using fossil fuel for generating at least 30% of our electricity and if ever get cost effective energy storage that will be 100%, so from my view-point that is 30% more fuel available for future uses.

There is also a small part of me that worries that some day something may come up where only fossil fuel will be usable and we won't have any because of shortsightedness and short-term greed.

I envision a future where all land transportation (excepting some specialized vehicles) use electricity generated from renewable resources and where all but a small portion of our energy needs come from the same source and fossil fuels are a specialty item used by the specialized industries. I also envision that our total available energy will be far far greater then it is now. Fossil fuels have essentially reached their limits in growing the amount of energy available to the planet. much as horses reached their limits a couple centuries ago.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 10, 2012
@Robert-S: Which points of fact that I have shared do you dispute: urbanization trends from the Population Reference Bureau? The watts/m2 of solar irradiance from NREL? That Thomas Jefferson favored an agrarian lifestyle for all Americans from our history books? When I share information that is posted on government websites in this forum, I get challenged as being inaccurate. When I ask for more authoritative information (i.e., on China Lake solar) its crickets. I read your posts and hear what you are saying. However, in the macro view, solar is gaining a growing market share among a shrinking fraction of the human population that is less and less relevant to the problem. Heat and CO2 emissions radiate from urban centers. The solution is going to have to be one that addresses urban constraints and urban scale. Just to stop the rising of temperature due to global warming 100 years from now, we need to reduce CO2 emissions 80% globally today. Completely converting the 900GW of US peak power generating capacity to zero emissions power would only cancel out two years of annual CO2 emissions growth. 900GW of solar panels would occupy 37M acres (the entire state of Georgia). It would take an enormous amount of fossil fuel to produce enough solar panels to cover Georgia, and who knows how much CO2 emissions. This is a pretty tough problem and not solvable by wishful thinking. I'm interested in feasible, adequate, and acceptable solutions to the actual problems we face, and endure the tirades that flow on this site for the occasional nugget of valuable information. So yes, I am interested in facts.
John Bronson
John Bronson
December 10, 2012
Hi Cliff,

I've seen solar hot water heaters on low rise apartments for many years. For high rise buildings, there are solar windows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9pTVyY9OZw

Also, you have energy efficiency increases that could make city buildings net zero in the near future.

Solar can also have an impact on transport with solar powered EV charging service stations. Or even hydrogen generation on site.

Oil and gas prices in the US are artificially low right now because they're not being exported. If the US starts exporting these products, you're going to see their prices rise to international levels.

The IEA numbers you posted seem to be comparing PV retail prices, with power plant wholesale energy costs. And even since then, PV prices have dropped quite a bit. If you look at a graph of PV prices over time, it's obvious they're going to be cheaper than anything else in the future.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 10, 2012
Cliff, My apologies, I was under the impression you were interested in a discussion of facts, It's now clear I was wrong.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 10, 2012
I find it interesting that a few folks rant and rave about energy slavery and scream accusations at third parties in all caps when, in the USA at least, they participate in the energy economy voluntarily. Stop paying your power bill and stop filling up at the gas station. It's a free country. Vote with your wallet. Don't put another dime in the pocket of big bad oil and the Kochie monsters. If you are using the grid to charge your phone and power your computer to type these posts, then is that not hypocrisy of the tallest order? I encourage all those vehemently opposed to fossil and nuclear power to follow their consciences and unplug. The blogs will get a lot quieter and the conversation more grounded in reality and logic.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 10, 2012
"It would be nice if every American lived on their own 40-acre plot and farmed with a mule like Jefferson envisioned. . ."

What Jefferson would that be?

Cliff, do you actually read the stuff your write?

"Wind's large installation signature makes it problematic for residential use even in suburbia"

Have we been building coal plants and hydro-electric systems in suburbia?

"When this season of liberal subsidies ends as it eventually will, and the 20-yr leases run out, there's going to be a lot of current gen wind and solar hardware headed to the landfills without replacement"

Do you not realize that when the 20 year lease runs out that those wind turbines and will kick out one, two or more decades of almost free electricity?

You've been posting this kind of crap on the web for a long time. Do you not read the replies people provide you?
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 10, 2012
"It would be nice if every American lived on their own 40-acre plot and farmed with a mule like Jefferson envisioned. . ." Only someone looking at the world through jaundiced eyes could find that comment derisive. I am a fan of Jefferson and wish I had 40 acres and a mule. I just choose to embrace the facts as they are, not live in a fantasy world. As of 2008, more than 50% of people alive dwell in cities and more are moving that way everyday. That is a problem we have to deal with. Fossil fuels and centralization of power generation have improved air quality over everyone burning their own wood or running their own site generator. There is not enough useful surface area on a high-rise apartment building in the shadows of the urban canyons of a large city, even if you cover it completely in solar panels, to provide sufficient electricity for its inhabitants. For those who live on their 40-acre plots or at least in suburbia, solar is an option. Right now it's a lifestyle choice to pay more to live independently. Soon it will be a no-brainer economically for folks who are going to own their homes long enough for payback. Wind's large installation signature makes it problematic for residential use even in suburbia, and will probably remain the 40-acre option. As far as putting them on the grid, if you haven't heard the complaints, you haven't been listening. When this season of liberal subsidies ends as it eventually will, and the 20-yr leases run out, there's going to be a lot of current gen wind and solar hardware headed to the landfills without replacement because the lessons will have been relearned by then. Trying to solve an urban problem with a suburban solution is a strategy fail. To summarize: Wind is a rancher option, solar is a rancher and suburban home owner option, much higher power-density options are needed for 50% of the world today, 70% of the world of 2050, and 90% of the world of 2100.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 10, 2012
Bob----Cliff used the reference to "forty acres and a mule" describe renewable energy in derisive terms.

Derisive in his mind.

After the Civil War freed the slaves after 300 years of bondage. The white former slave owners built lives of luxury, wealth, indolence and greed through the forced labor of their slaves.

After the war freed the slaves---the former owners sought ways to continue the slavery system. They hit on a system of combined economic, political and racial cronyism that continued all of the abusive and manipulative evils of slavery----but deftly skirted the legal issue of ownership.

Forty acres and a mule, that is---take away the economic and political monopoly and give economic benefit directly to the former slaves in order to be able to support themselves free of the oppression of their former masters---was bitterly oppossed by all the former slave holders who continued to profit from the abuse.

We still have economic oppression and abuse today---in the form of fossil fuels. The Koch brothers fortune is built on a hydrocarbon cracking process----allowing the refining of heavy petroleums. It is an energy wasteful and highly polluting process. But it has allowed the extension of the petroleum market monopoly past the point where it would be collapsing.

So, in a way, Forty Acres And A Mule, is the perfect analogy. Forty Acres And A Mule could represent renewable energy and how it represents economic and political freedom from the slavery to the fossil fuel monopoly.

The Koch brothers, and their friends who reap enormous profits from the fossil fuel monopoly know this. That is why they are so intent to make sure that renewable energy never gains a foothold.

It would just never do if people(God forbid) should one day discover that they do not need them or their fossil fuels----and the economic, political and social slavery that they sell. End of monopoly, end of wealth and privilege.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 10, 2012
"Without storage, solar and wind are suburban residential and commercial prospects, not industrial, transportation, or urban solutions."

And, here, you simply aren't thinking things through. There is no difference between the electricity flowing from a coal plant, nuclear reactor, gas turbine, wind turbine, or solar panel. The lights in your 20th floor, densely populated city nor the stamp press in a car plant don't care where the electricity was generated.

Right now those urban lights and industrial machines are getting 3.5% of their power from non-hydro renewables and we haven't heard them complain.

We are using wind and solar, even though their outputs are variable, because we have a grid which is designed to deal with variable inputs and outputs. We have dispatchable generation which can be turned on and off as needed.

Bring cheaper wind or solar to the grid and more expensive dispatchable generation gets turned off.

It's that simple. It works just fine.

Later, several years from now, when wind and solar surpass 25% to 35% of our grid input we'll have to bring significant storage to the grid. The number might be a lot higher than 35% because we are currently converting from coal to dispatchable natural gas. Additionally, as more EVs and PHEVs come on line our need for storage decreases.

Currently a lot of work is being done to determine the best storage solution and things are looking good.

Worry not. Many American cities and manufacturing plants are sucking in the wind and solar electricity right now and they are doing just fine.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 10, 2012
"Subsidies to commercialize and mass-produce technology before it beats the cost-benefit balance of existing technology is irrational and harmful."

This is your consistent logical failure, Cliff. It seems that you have bought into the myth of the free market. You seem to believe that if something is valuable to people then the free market will produce it.

What you don't seem to realize is that the free market is short-term oriented and greedy. If the market doesn't see a relatively short and secure route to profit then the market will not support development.

Look at the guys in the article at the top of the page, the Koch boys. They are shining examples of the free market, they have become incredibly wealthy by being expert free market players.

And what are they doing? They are lying to people and using their political power to keep the country burning coal which, if continued, will destroy the country. And they do that for free market profits.

If the free market was the answer, as you seem to think it to be, then people like the Koches would bring clean energy to maturity, not fight against it.

We need market forces to move things forward and to create efficiencies and lower price. But we also have to regulate and supplement the market. We need the whole package, not just the greedy chasing profit part.

Sometimes we have to interfere with the direction the market is taking us. The market has no moral sense nor does it have long term foresight.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 10, 2012
Cliff-------you are trying to rationalize more of the same.

There are better ways to do things. There are better ways to live than 19th Century post industrial squalor.

There can be a better life for everyone----not just a few monied and priviliged elite.

Renewable energy fits perfectly into the model of distributed wealth, production and living. Fossil fuels do not.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 10, 2012
@Fred. You are lamenting the problems of industrialization and urbanization, not evil individuals. You could also memorialize all the great train wrecks of history and use them to argue that we should abolish trains. People all over the world are concentrating in cities--50% live in cities today and it will be 80-90% by the end of the century. That creates huge power and waste-management issues that we need technology and entrepreneurs to solve. The large centralized powerplant and national grid model was developed as the most efficient solution to the demographics and geographics of population. Cities concentrate energy consumption. It is a challenge to support concentrated consumption with diffuse production, and vice-versa. It would be nice if every American lived on their own 40-acre plot and farmed with a mule like Jefferson envisioned, but instead many live in towering apartment buildings and commute to work underground. We have to solve the challenges that exist and not blast the very technology that is holding back famine and disease. What would be the air quality of London if everybody cooked on a wood stove? Unfortunately, apartment solar or wind is not going to be an option. We are going to continue to need large powerplants to power large cities and we should use whatever technology delivers the most benefit for the least cost across its full lifecycle. Things like health impacts and waste stream impacts must be rationally monetized for all alternatives to guide the selection. 'All of the above' is not an energy strategy. It is the absence of an energy strategy or any rational approach toward answering one of the most fundamental question for any civilization. Subsidies to commercialize and mass-produce technology before it beats the cost-benefit balance of existing technology is irrational and harmful. Without storage, solar and wind are suburban residential and commercial prospects, not industrial, transportation, or urban solutions.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 10, 2012
December 5th to December 9th was the 60th anniversary of the Great Smog of London, 1952. The death toll from this one incident was accounted at 12,000 deaths, and 100,000 suffering serious illness at the time. Later surveys which included outlaying and rural areas also affected(not just London proper) place the death toll at around 20,000. This is only one of many such incidents, though it is the worst on record that I know of. This sum total of this type of human and environmental damage in my opinion makes arguements and rants over price per kW or subsidies by the Koch Bros. and minions such as Cliff seem incredibly callous, and usery. To the Koch Bros. et al(their supporters and sympathizers)------ YOU DO NOT OWN THE WORLD! YOU DO NOT OWN THE AIR. YOU DO NOT OWN THE WATER. YOU DO NOT OWN THE LAND. YOU DO NOT OWN THE PEOPLE. Even though you think you do---you do not. The world does not OWE you anything. If you think the price of safe energy is too high, then use less energy. Killing people, destroying the air, the waters, and the land do not fall into the province of your Business as Usual. You can pay for safe energy now----or you can pay later. But when later comes, and the final price is looming-----what you would have to pay now will be a mere pittance by comparison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 10, 2012
@Anonymous comment 47,
IT IS the government's job to fund projects that are NOT yet economically viable in order to make them economically viable if they have a chance to do so. And in fact Solar PV is almost to the point it is economically viable without subsidizes and likely will be in a few years at current rate of progress. In some cases it already is viable if you consider ALL of the mid-to-long-term benefits of Renewable over fossil fuels. big one is health savings, the other is lowered national security costs. But even on a pure electricity only basis it is approaching parity within the next few years. That is if governments keeps pushing it for just a few more years. Otherwise it will take decades to do what we really need to be doing now, because the conversion from primary fossil fuel to primary renewable fuel will take at least 20 years.

I would also like to point out it is probably more harmful to keep providing special discounts to fossil fuel companies (outside of the generic all-business deductions, credits and subsidizes) given the hazard a large debt risks to the country's overall and the pollution to its citizen's health.

As to the earlier question about negative economic impact, you are not looking hard enough, although Bio-fuels are probably the one with the biggest "negative" impact, because it in particular tends to use land that would be used for food.

Most renewables have significantly lower maintenance/fuel requirements then fossil fuel plants. Solar PV has nearly no direct maintenance/fuel requirements and should be considered that most silicone based solar PV panels will last in excess of 40+ years, with only a few inverter change-outs.

Meanwhile, what I didn't point out earlier is from a business standpoint, my little 8100 watt system is on track to start making a effective profit by 2016 because of current (and grandfathered) incentives. After that essentially nearly free electricity for life.
ANONYMOUS
December 9, 2012
From what I read I don't see that the Koch Bros. et al have a gripe with RE itself. They are simply opposed to the way government policies are being used to force RE on the US public, and that they feel these policies will have a serious negative effect on the US economy.

As a previous poster pointed out, both sides of the debate over RE economics have employed some exaggerations to argue their position. But at least the Koch Bros. are using their own money to do so. The same is not entirely true for those pushing RE. There are millions of state and federal taxpayer dollars spent funding studies endorsing RE, but I have yet to see a single one that gives an honest overall picture of the negative economic impacts of RE's higher cost.

I sincerely hope that RE technology rapidly advances to the point where it becomes economically viable. That would be wonderful. But until that happens, the limited growth of RE won't be due to the relatively insignificant marketing efforts of the Koch Bros., it will be due to the unfavorable market economics of RE itself.

It is harmful in the long term to use government policies to force deployment of RE before the technology is economically viable. In the US, there are lots of recent historical examples where this has happened. Does no one remember the Solar 1 and Solar 2 projects in Southern California? These were massive, mutli-MW, commercial CSP plants costing hundreds of millions. They never really produced much power, and were demolished a few years ago. Here's a sad quote from Wikipedia, "...On November 25, 2009, after 10 years of not producing any energy, the Solar Two tower was demolished.....".

If the author wants to see RE prosper, he needs to quit using the tactics of failure such as blaming bogey-men like the Koch Bros., and instead start working harder himself.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
Cliff, as far as I can tell we do not have the information necessary to answer your questions. The facts seem to be:

1) SunPower built a large solar installation at China Lake. At their expense. They seem to have not divulged either system cost or financing information.

2) Prior to construction SunPower and the US military signed a purchase agreement in which the military would purchase the power generated over the next 20 or 30 years for $100 million.

3) That purchase calculated out to save the military $13 million over the life of the contract as opposed to purchasing grid power.

4) No information has been presented about any subsidies that might have been available to SunPower. I think it would be safe to assume that they would have had access to the standard subsidies available to other solar installations.

5) I have presented current (2nd qtr, 2012) average prices for installed utility scale solar twice above. $2.60/watt. Since SunPower built their system a little earlier we could assume their costs might have been somewhat more.

My impression is that government (not just US, but also Germany, Spain, China and several other government)subsidies have been wildly successful in bringing down the cost of renewable energy.

Thirty years back the LCOE for wind was in the neighborhood of $0.30/kWh. It's now about $0.05/kWh. That is a 6x cost reduction.

Thirty years back solar panels were $50/watt or some incredibly high price by today's standards. Right now the average spot price for silicon solar modules is $0.66/watt average, $0.54/watt low. Thin-film modules are about four cents lower per watt. From $50 to $0.66 is a 75x drop.

We've been subsidizing fossil fuels for 100 years and nuclear for 50 and their prices keep rising.

PPAs have worked fairly well. But current thinking is that FiTs work better. That said, we're getting close to where we won't need subsidies for wind and solar in the US.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
" a new clean coal plant isn't competing with solar costs now, it is competing with solar costs in ~7 years time because that is the minimum time required to complete a new coal plant from concept to operational"

That's a good point Robert. Anyone wishing to build a new nuclear or coal plant is risking their investment against what wind and solar will cost in the future. If you need 7 to 10+ years to build plus 20 years to recoup your investment you've got a very wide risk window.

Solar prices will keep falling. $1/watt installed is not an unreasonable guess for ten years from now. That's 4c/kWh electricity. Wind is expected to fall to 3 to 4c/kWh. You're big project would have to be able to undercut those costs. Not what wind and solar cost even now, that will decrease.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 9, 2012
@Robert & Bob: I really want to understand the facts of China Lake solar better. What were the actual installation costs? How was it financed, how do federal and state subsidies and RECs play? If this is a good news story, then please help fill in the blanks. I want to know where commercial scale solar really is when all the money sources and sinks are revealed. I think this should be a good case study because proponents and the government both applaud the PPA approach.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 9, 2012
Totally agree Bob, here in Australia we still have a few misguided fools clinging to the idea that solar is horrendously expensive, when one points out to them that it now costs ~$2.00 per watt residential installed they have a conniption and then claim that must be only because the Government pays the rest. You then have to explain to them that actually over the last few years the rebate has been slashed from $8 per watt 8 years ago to ~80c per watt now and as of the 1st of January it will be halved to ~40c per watt. The unsubsidised cost of solar in Australia is around $3 per watt and it competes against our average retail electricity prices of ~27c/kwh. The only way to continue to believe that solar doesn't make complete sense in Australia is to be woefully ignorant of the changes over the last few years. It would seem the USA lags behind a little both in terms of system prices and also having cheaper power but both are trending in the direction where it is becoming harder and harder to dismiss solar.
The reality is solar is approximately competitive now with new clean coal technology, the problem is that a new clean coal plant isn't competing with solar costs now, it is competing with solar costs in ~7 years time because that is the minimum time required to complete a new coal plant from concept to operational, even if solar costs fall half as much over the next 7 years as they have over the last 7 then the economics of that plant in 7 years time will be rubbish.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
First quarter, 2010 the average price of residential installed solar was just under $7/watt, non-residential (commercial rooftop) about $5.25/watt, utility just under $5/watt. The weighted average cost of installed solar was about $6.25/watt.

By the beginning of 2010 $7/watt made no sense unless one was talking about paying high end-user prices. Certainly not when paying utility level prices.

The numbers are approximate because I'm reading them from a bar graph.

Second quarter, 2012 residential solar had dropped to $5.46/watt, non-residential to $4.38/watt, utility to $2.60/watt and the weighted average to $3.45/watt.

(GMT - Solar Summary)

I think we can safely discard Cliff's claims about the cost of solar.

--

The DOE/EIA is projecting wind in 2013 at $0.04 to $0.05/kWh, $40 to $50 per MWh. I'd suggest the "Onshore Wind (World) 90.00" is also inoperable.

http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/

Also tossable -

"Bottom line: whether it shows up on the monthly power bill, or is hidden by subsidies and payed for by taxes, or is financed by government deficit spending and paid for in inflation, electricity from alternative sources is very expensive."

In the last few years realty has dealt the anti-renewable energy/tea party folks a cruel blow.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 9, 2012
Cliff, I also believe you have misunderstood, the $100m is the PPA, i.e. they will buy the plants output for $100million over the contract length and buying it from the grid would have cost $113 million hence the saving of $13 million. To determine the $/watt we need info we don't have, the installation cost of the facility. As it is a commercial project I presume this information is being kept commercial in confidence as I cant find an installed cost anywhere. Regardless my point from earlier still stands, the cost of solar has fallen exponentially since 2007 which is the approximate time the data would have been initially collected to calculate your quoted $215 LCOE of solar, retail prices now give solar an LCOE of ~$60 and that is continuing to fall, as I pointed out around 2/3 of installed solar is small scale distributed which is bought both at current retail panel rates and competes with retail power prices. These combination of factors means that retail parity is being reached in many markets now and the number reaching that target will continue to swell as power costs rise and panel prices fall, this explains the rapid growth in renewable installations a trend I believe will only accelerate as more of the population falls into an area at or below parity.
Bernhard Scheffler
Bernhard Scheffler
December 9, 2012
Cliff Claven:- For current costs of PV, why not use the figures in 2 of the world's largest markets -- Germany (with well over 32 GW installed), and Italy. In Germany the feed-in tariff for free-standing PV as well as large (> 1 MW) roof-mounted systems was 12.71 euro cents/kWh in Oct 2012. If the rate of digression has been maintained it is 12.46c/kWh now (Dec 2012), and will be much lower still in another 12 months; time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariffs_in_Germany#cite_note-2 and http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=9756

These figures are well below what you quote -- and in a country with a rather poor solar resource when compared to the southwestern USA.

Up to date figures for Italy can be found in http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/12/italy-abandons-rps-adopts-system-of-feed-in-tariffs?page=all
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
Cliff, show us where $100 million was spent on the installation of the system. Nothing in the link you provided supports your claim.

I believe that $100 million is the cost of 20-30 years of contracted purchase of electricity. $13 million cheaper than purchasing from the grid.

SunPower built and owns the system. There is nothing that says that the military gave SunPower the money to build the system and will then pay them for the power produced.

The military contracted a PPA which means that they agree to pay a fixed amount for a fixed amount of electricity delivered by SunPower.

There is no information that I can find on line that states how much it cost Sunpower to build the system.

Since the current cost of large array solar is well under $3/watt your claim of $7/watt further looses credibility.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 9, 2012
Bill Fitch-------------you got it right!
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 9, 2012
The math is not hard. This is is a $100M expenditure of federal and state money for a 14MW system ($7/watt) that provides electricity to the Navy with a price advantage so slim it only saves them $13M over the course of the whole 20-yr PPA. Paying $100M for $13M is an $87M loss. SunPower is just getting paid in installments this time and is being rewarded with an even greater margin. In comparison, the Nellis plant PPA is saving the Air Force $1.2M a year for 20 years, so only represents a $76M loss for the taxpayers and Nevada Power customers.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
$7/watt is meaningless if you're talking about purchasing electricity. You need a time measurement as in 12 cents per kilowatt hour.

I think Cliff took the 20 year (or 30 year, there's some confusion) contract price for electricity purchased and divided it by the size of the installation. Logic error.

--

A sizable majority of Americans are concerned about climate change and want something to be done about it. Even if it costs them money.

The people who deny climate change have shrunken to about 10%. It's a disappearing minority.

If solar is presented as a way to reduce climate change and a way to do the job while costing little, or even saving money, that's worth advertising.

We need to be talking about how much it costs us in tax dollars and health insurance premiums to use coal. People need to understand that we can slow climate change and save money at the same time.

We've got to take the messaging away from the fossil fuel industry. It's very clear that they will say whatever is necessary to prolong their profit stream. They profit at our expense. And at the expense of generations to come.
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 9, 2012
1. If the system cost for China Lake was for electricity and not the system, then I can see it being $7/watt since it is the government buying it. Although probably still a bit high it should indeed save the government money over the long term depending on fossil fuel cost increases over that period.

2. A note on using Global Warming for selling solar. Don't bother. While climate change is real and likely affected by mankind, the anti-crowd has done too good of a job confusing the average person. A better selling point is National Security and long term cost savings.

It is in the interest of ANY country to ensure a reliable supply of energy for the future, the country with a reliable source of energy is stronger, one with an unreliable or "short-term" source is weaker. Also the country with more available energy per-capita is stronger, with less energy per capita is weaker. And I personally believe that it is unlikely we will be able to eliminate liquid fuels from certain uses anytime soon (as in decades), we can at least do our best to make sure it lasts as long as possible. It is Teddy Roosevelt style conservatism at its best.

The long term cost savings are obvious if you can do math and understand very-basic supply and demand economics, If the supply gets less and demand stays the same or grows, then costs go up. Renewable energy does not run out (at least until the sun does, many epochs from now).

Any help with global warming is just a nice bonus.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
This is from your link -

"At the end of September 2011, Sunpower Corp. in Richmond, CA, won a $100.3 million firm-fixed-price task order under a previous multiple-vendor award contract, for up to 30 years of electricity from a renewable energy generating system at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, CA."

Now, since we know that there is a PPA for Sunpower to furnish electricity from the system they own it seems to me that you are misusing/misunderstanding what the $100.3 million is. It sounds to me that that is the total cost of of electricity purchase over the length of the contract.

A "firm-fixed-price task order" "for up to 30 years of electricity".

And let's remember that this is a $13 million savings for "Uncle Sugar". We are saving money.
John Ihle
John Ihle
December 9, 2012
I agree

It's the way capitalism works, we think with our greenbacks. So it's important to get the facts right because for most people it has boiled down to money. The cheaper the rates the better it is and it is getting more, and will get, and more expensive for new fossil fuel generation.

The utilities in the future will look much differenly then the central station status methods implemented over a 100 years ago. Renewables present great options.

There is a great video series that describe a renewables mix (maybe natural gas and hydro);

www.energyshouldbe/delve.com

It was put together for Boulder (they're exploring municipalization) to provide information on how energy demand and generation could work and probably will work as we shift more and more to distributed generation.

GE came out with new gas turbine technology that has quicker response but also is more robust being able to better weather the constant expansion and contraction of cycling. According to some it is not "revolutionary" necessarily nor is it super efficient and more R&D is no doubt ongoing to make it more efficient depending upon load.

I think these are better options for the environment and ratepayers than coal and/or nuclear..or investing 100's of millions in upgrading old coal plants just to see them retire in 8 or 10 years. And in the meantime placing increased risk on ratepayers.
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 9, 2012
Hi: Always nice to see a thread about the "K" brothers. I won't even comment on them for it is like opening up a public discussion on whether rotten eggs stink. But, what I find most comical about climate discussions is, the whole real climate concern is about temperature and weather patterns and is man be making it harder for himself to survive with all the dominoes that are falling with the changing that is occurring with the above. Yet, what is one of the first responses regarding the article? LCOE. MONEY! Thats the concern, not the actual situation. Its like being offered a steak or arsenic for dinner and choosing the later because it is cheaper. ALEC wrote an inside document titled, "Warming up to Climate Change". It is on how to profit from Global warming such as Arctic drilling!! Gee, imagine that!! All these players not only know Global Warming is real but have been planning for years on how to take advantage of it for profit. Liers always double down on their lies as well as create new ones. There is nothing new in any of this. These people will continue to poison our planet as long as they are around to do so... The good news is, if you can view it this way, as Sandy's become more and more frequent and more severe, maybe, just maybe, the masses will begin to take accountability back to the origin where it is needed.....

.....Bill
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 9, 2012
As you know, there are a multitude of ways to finance and shift costs to various parties, but SunPower got $100.3M ($7/Watt) in 2011 for this system from the pockets of Uncle Sugar and the State of California, just like they charged the US taypayers and Nevada Power rate payers $100M ($7/Watt) for the Nellis system in 2007. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/100M-for-Sunpower-Electricity-at-NAWS-China-Lake-CA-07121/
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
You know, I'd like to see something that talks about China Lake costing $7/watt.

Everything I can find on the web states no per watt price. The system was built and is owned by SunPower Solar and they have a 20 year PPA with the military to provide electricity at lower than grid prices with a projected savings of $13 million over the 20 year period.

As tight as things are now for solar panel companies I really doubt that they installed at $7/watt and are selling the power at less than grid price.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
Robert - here's an example of how end-user installed solar is knocking the price structure of electricity all over the place in Germany. With only a small percentage (5.3% as of August) of overall electricity coming from solar it's enough to destroy the midday peak on sunny days.

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/03/23/german-solar-bringing-down-price-of-afternoon-electricity-big-time-more-charts-facts/

This has to be a headache for producers who count on high midday peaks to produce good profits for them. Profits which take care of selling close to cost or even at a loss during off-peak.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
Utility system solar, second quarter 2012 averaged $2.60/watt installed. That was down 33% from second quarter 2011.

These price drops were due to half of the projects being built by vertically integrated manufacturers installing their own product and half of the projects using low-cost Chinese panels.

GTM US Solar Insight Report Q2 2012 Executive Summary.
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
December 9, 2012
Just some thoughts based on my own experience...

In late 2009, I installed a 8,100 watt solar PV system.
The cost per watt without PTC was $6.7, with PTC adjustment $7.8/watt.

If I had bought it two years later, the cost for an actually better system (but using the same watts for this) would have been $4.9/watt after PTC adjustment (residential retail price). So if they installed a large array in China Lake at $7/watt, they was took.

Also I am not buying into a levelized cost of over $215/Mwh for Solar PV, it just does not match my reality after looking at what the local power company pays versus what and when my system provides power. Especially not if you consider costs over 25+ and likely 40+ years with some inverter replacements versus continuing fuel costs. It would make sense if using a 10 year basis.

And other then having to repair some storm damage last year (a panel came off, suspect micro-burst) there has been NO maintenance costs to the system. Likely I may have to clean off the panels at some point, all the annoying coal/shipyard dust; but the rain and snow seem to be doing a fairly good job so far.

So just using my own personal system and based on what research I have done from as unbiased sources as I can find, Solar PV should be very much closer to fossil fuels at current fuel prices then the first comment showed.

Referring to the OP, I have seen multiple evidence of either a lot of idiots using out-dated information (or using NASA quality PV for costs) or a concerted paid effort to discredit the value of Solar PV.

Final note: And just from a cost basis versus payback time, Solar Thermal (water heating) should be half the price of Solar PV, but maybe they were referring to Thermal Power Plant using solar heating (T-SH).

Just my experience,

BTW: According to NREL data, Energy payback should occur mid-2013 even using worst case numbers from mining to on roof and on-line. Approximately 3.3 years.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 9, 2012
This is the paradigm shift that energy market analysts and investors are struggling with Cliff, about 2/3 of all solar additions to the grid are small domestic or small commercial installations which are both bought at current retail rates AND compete against retail electricity rates not against wholesale power prices. That a significant portion of installations are distributed is an anathema to energy market analysts until very recently however they are being installed in such large numbers in more and more places as retail parity is reached that they are starting to have noticeable impacts on power demand profiles and wholesale pricing. I agree that the huge commercial projects work on a typical large scale plant timescale, however such installations represent a minority of solar additions. The dilemma for anyone contemplating a new large scale plant project knowing it will take ~8 years from concept to completion is what will happen with distributed generation in those 8 years? will there be a market for the plants output by the time it is constructed? and will it be at a price that justifies the plants construction? There is a whole new level of risk involved in long time scale projects.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 9, 2012
OK, probably was filtering that through California realities. We have a shortage of refineries that can formulate the fuel we need to meed state standards. Our prices really spiked when one of our refineries suffered a fire and lost production for a while.

Gasoline I treat as a necessary evil. I look forward to the world using less and hope that starts happening very soon. In the meantime, higher prices work to our advantages in terms of pulling down CO2 numbers. More efficient vehicles and more public transportation/bike/walk diversion.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 9, 2012
@Anon (post 8): The 300W/m2 I quoted is for the cloudless US southwest desert and is the 24/7/365 averaged irradiance. The 1000W/m2 you mention (actually 950) is the peak irradiance at noon at the equator on a cloudless day during the summer solstice. Make corrections for latitude and average it out over day and night for a year and you get 300W/m2. That number is equal to the 7.25 kWh/m2-day insolation for that part of the US as published by NREL, a source I consider to be generally reliable. On the remaining challenge about ignoring data in computations, I would direct you to read the reference and look at what is considered. It is very in-depth and transparent. I agree with @robert-s (post #15) that there is likely a couple of years lag in most published data. However decisions involving huge capital investment like those affecting quadrillions of BTUs of electrical capacity are made based on 20-80 year time horizons and long-term secular trends, not short-term oscillations. Interestingly, the 14MW Nellis solar plant completed in 2007 cost $7/watt, and the 14MW China Lake solar plant just completed last month cost $7/watt. Dramatic changes in the retail cost of panels do not translate so quickly into large commercial projects with extended contractual timelines.
Charles Scouten
Charles Scouten
December 8, 2012
We have fewer refineries, but they are bigger. US Refinery capacity is not short. In fact, the Canadian crude so much in te news will probably go into products for export. Last year, for the first time in many years, petroleum product exports - blendstocks for gasoline, diesel, jet and heating oil - surpassed the value of agricultural among US exports. We need Canadian crude to keep US Gulf Coast refineries running at capacity - we need those good refinery jobs. But, don't expect Canadian crude to lower the cost of your gasoline!
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 8, 2012
from Cliff's numbers above:

Nuclear (US) 48.73
Black Coal PCC (US) 46.09 72.49
Black Coal IGCC (US) 48.47 74.87
Black Coal IGCC CO2C (US) 65.43 68.04
Gas CCGT (US) 61.84 76.58
Gas AGT (US) 76.74 91.48
Gas CCGT CO2C (US) 90.43 91.90

and

Solid Biomass (US) 47.04 53.77
Biogas (US) 47.53
Geothermal (US) 32.48
Hydro (Brazil) 19.00

That tells me we should be using biogas. CH4 can do anything we need done. And, when you deduct the cost of treating sewage(we need to treat sewage anyway)-----you get the biogas free.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 8, 2012
Well, that is an interesting read Charles. North Dakota oil may well kill the Canadian tar sands operation. We are limited in terms of refineries, we quit building new ones some time back, IIRC. Getting a new refinery on line would take many years. A decade?

Sweet crude will crowd out harder to refine crude.

If that holds then I suspect Canadian tar sands operations are going belly up. In well less than ten years we should have EV batteries that give us at least 2x current capacity/range at a price that makes EVs as cheap or cheaper than feature-equivalent ICEVs. We are likely to be well into a technology flip from oil to electricity a decade from now.

And, unless the magic cooling unicorn makes an unexpected appearance, I suspect we'll see some sort of additional carbon price which will help drive the transition faster than simply the lower cost per mile of EVs.
Charles Scouten
Charles Scouten
December 8, 2012
ALEC, Energy Citizens and other fossil fuel advocates have a point: today our economy is dependent upon fossil fuels, and is likely to remain so for years to come. With that I have no quarrel. Past that, we see advocates of action today to curb growth of alternative energy, alternative fuels, and even energy efficiency - all of which pose clear threats to fossil energy over the long term. I do quarrel with action now to postpone and/or slow the growth of energy from other than fossil sources. Tying our nation's future to fossil energy is unwise, imprudent, and a clear danger to US national security.

Now, regarding Keystone XL being the only game in town, please take a look at the pipeline map and discussion in the Stillwater Associates newsletter of November 27 at:

http://stillwaterassociates.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:tough-time-to-be-a-production-pipeline-or-refinery-planner&catid=40:white-papers&Itemid=155
John Ihle
John Ihle
December 8, 2012
Rich. I'm not going anywhere other than stating that ALEC misrepresents coe and we need to do something quickly to seriously curb fossil fuel emissions.

The Koch is representative of the whole fossil fuel who did a pretty good job that not only helped build out the largest economy on the planet, with the greatest emissions per capita compared to any other country, and they got the money (and they may feel entitled) to continue old paradigm thinking. Super political, somewhat subtle and very dangerous I think.

They're twisting things up and alot of legislators believe their spew. AND it doesn't help to use numbers from 2010.

I've been a beneficiary of central station/fossil fired thinking. Most of us have. But it's time to do something different.

They (the fossil fuel industry), like Bob indicated, have one thing in mind and that is to protect their interests and to stay the course.

It's a problem that may be difficult to overcome because the clean energy industry does not have nearly enough money to counter nor are they as well organized.

It will take dedicated people to counter their message and present the "facts" as it stands now. Not 2 years past. But now.

By the way. Xcel is a member of ALEC along with several other fossil fuel and electric utility corporations.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 8, 2012
No, certainly not overnight. And not at the same speed in all places.

What we're discussing, I believe, is what our electricity supply will look like in the years to come. Right now we're converting somewhere between 1% and 2% of our electricity total to non-hydro renewables. 2012 is on track to see a 1.2% increase in non-hydro's contribution to the grid. End-user solar is in addition to that number.

Going forward I don't see us building what is cheapest in the 2010 prices at the top of the page. Those are out of date numbers. Wind is currently the cheapest new generation with NG second but rising as solar decreases. Gas has a very low overnight cost and highly dispatchable. I expect we'll continue to see more NG capacity added right up to the point where (hopefully) cheap storage makes its appearance.

I'm getting my numbers from here - http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/

The Koch brothers are fighting a rear guard action to keep their coal operations profitable as long as possible. They, IMO, belong to a group of people who put profits before honesty.
Richard Mignogna
Richard Mignogna
December 8, 2012
Bob, You mention that merit order will result in 'New, cheaper generation [causing] more expensive generation to be forced off the grid.' Your resulting assumption that the 'more expensive older generation will drop away' is locally dependent. In Colorado, for example, most of the coal and much of the gas is rate based while all of the wind (2100+ MW) is on PPAs as a must take resource, regardless of price. With the exception of a small curtailment allowance built into the most recent contracts, Xcel has paid millions of dollars in curtailment for energy that it couldn't use. Again, going forward, as coal is retired and replaced with more flexible generators that integrate more effectively with intermittent renewables, this will be less of a problem. But, this doesn't happen overnight and the evaluation is not quite a black and white as many would make it out to be. Rich Mignogna Renewable & Alternative Energy Management, LLC Golden, Colorado
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 8, 2012
"ratepayers are still paying those average costs, not just the costs of new facilities"

That's not true where merit order pricing is in effect. New, cheaper generation causes older, more expensive generation to be forced off the grid. Solar does bad things to expensive gas peakers.

We're seeing that happen this month in Wisconsin with the Kewaunee reactor being shut down. Cheaper wind and natural gas generation has come on line and have made that reactor unprofitable (read: bankrupt).

And it's not just that reactor -

"Even plants with no pressing repair problems are feeling the pinch, especially in places where wholesale prices are set in competitive markets. According to an internal industry document from the Electric Utility Cost Group, for the period 2008 to 2010, maintenance and fuel costs for the one-fourth of the reactor fleet with the highest costs averaged $51.42 per megawatt hour.

That is perilously close to wholesale electricity costs these days."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/business/energy-environment/economics-forcing-some-nuclear-plants-into-retirement.html?_r=1

We're seeing coal plants shut down for months in the PNW at times because cheaper wind and hydro are in abundance and forcing them shut.

Unless the utility owns the plant or is hooked into a long term PPA and can keep market forces at bay, more expensive older generation will drop away.
Robert Smithers
Robert Smithers
December 8, 2012
Cliff-Claven, the important thing to realise about a report such as that is that whilst the report may have been published in 2010, they generally use a meta analysis of reports from national energy reporting bodies like the EIA in the US and the AEMO in Australia, for the 2010 IEA report they likely used 2008 and 2009 national reports. The 2009 and 2008 national reports will be using data collected in 2006-2007. These reports always lag significantly from the reality on the ground. Solar has fallen ~60% in cost in the last 18 months alone, close to 80% in the last 4 years. The LCOE is now well below $80.
One must always read such a report with the significant lag in mind. They are essentially obsolete before they are written, that is why the EIA has always significantly underestimated renewable energy growth by a factor of ~4.
Richard Mignogna
Richard Mignogna
December 8, 2012
John,

I did read your comment, though I'm not sure you really understood the point I was trying to make. It was only that both sides in this debate continually selectively cite data that best supports their case. To that extent, I felt it worthwhile to agree with Cliff's original premise. I also agree with him that much of the money we currently spend would be better spent in R&D to further reduce costs.

Of course I agree that, going forward, current costs are more dispositive than historical ones. But, ratepayers are still paying those average costs, not just the costs of new facilities. So, those are still important. And, when it comes to the so-called rate impact limitations that are part of various state RPS, my actual experience while on the Staff of the Colorado PUC was that such limitations are often treated as an inconvenience to be circumvented at every opportunity, especially by anyone with an agenda or economic self-interest to pursue (this too was part of the original discussion so please don't accuse me of being off topic).

And before you go there, no, I am not a fan of the Koch Bros. However, I also believe that clean energy supporters (of which I am one) have an obligation to not similarly twist the data to suit their own agenda. When that happens, the general public has a right to be as suspicious of one agenda as the other, and that was my point.

Rich Mignogna
Renewable & Alternative Energy Management, LLC
Golden, Colorado
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 8, 2012
The mix does change delivered price. We're seeing what is a modest amount of wind on some grids bringing down their aggregate cost of electricity. Solar is doing the same for daytime electricity cost in Germany and some data says also in SoCal. Solar has dropped the cost of power in parts of Australia because it has allowed them to avoid building expensive peak generation.

The installed cost of solar in Germany has hit (possibly passed) $2/watt. Get prices down to that level in the sunny parts of the US and that's getting us to 7 cent electricity.

Put 7 cent solar together with 5 cent wind and things change. Generation that has to average 10 cents or more across ~8,000 hours a year is in great trouble. Very expensive gas peakers are going to come on line far less.

Throw in some cheap storage and it's a new ballgame. Forget about what power cost in 2010.
Charles Scouten
Charles Scouten
December 8, 2012
Truly a fascinating discussion - even if agreement on 'facts' is not unanimous. But what about the target? Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) is important, but consumers pay delivered cost not just cost of generation. Distributed solar PV uses the grid at the margins - to supply excess power to the grid and draw power from the grid when solar PV cannot meet demand. With a NIMBY response to most proposed grid expansions, "Make it where you use it" looks better & better!
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
December 8, 2012
From the first comment... 'The International Energy Agency in 2010 collected data from 190 conventional and alternative power plants in 23 countries. Here are the US figures, with data from other nations substituted where US data is lacking. Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) USD/MWh @ 5% discount rate (without/with $30/tonne carbon cost):' Using the cost from plants put into operation prior to 2010 doesn't help us a lot in making decisions going forward into 2013. Nuclear, for example, is largely coming from plants built long ago when construction costs were lower and regulation less. You can't build a new nuclear plant for 1970 prices. Solar price have gone the other direction. Current and future solar prices bear little resemblance to 2010 prices. eta: Since 2010 the emission regulations for coal have changed. If you could get a permit to build a new coal plant you'd find the cost greatly increased. It's why over 100 existing coal plants are closing rather than spending the money to clean up their smokestacks.
John Ihle
John Ihle
December 8, 2012
Rich. Read my post. I did not state Xcel's cost is 35 bucks/mwhr. I was talking specifically about projects I am involved with. Now. Today. Generally the topic is ALEC and their meddling in energy policy within the U.S. with local legislatures. Consequently these are local issues. Legislation affects current costs for local ratepayers. It is important for decision makers to understand where costs are. Today. Not 5 years ago or even 2 years ago. With low wind technology at low wind sites capacity factors are over 40% and reaching 43% plus. A low wind site is below 7 m/s at 80 m hub height. International numbers do policy makers no good ever but especially if they are relying on 2010 figures. Why cite if they are so far out of whack they don't come close to representing local costs of energy NOW. You have to model locally. The premise of the article is more local than global. ALEC is not operating globally. ALEC operates in MN, CO,etc., and their agenda is to maintain status quo and misrepresent the facts at all costs to protect their assets and shareholders. One can go back all the way to 1981 and include those numbers, too. The cost to generate at that time (nationally), from wind, was about 300 400 bucks/Mwhr. Where do you stop and what's the point? I already inferred I am involved with wind energy development and have been for over 30 years. We're all biased. I am biased towards clean energy. Always have been and always will be.I take pride in that (it's been a rough road). Strong economic arguments can be made because of technological advances but also because it appears that environmental reform will drive fossil fuel costs up. Facts are facts and clean energy is cheap right now. ALEC misrepresents ...just like the article indicates. The article is mainly about ALEC and their misrepresentation of study analysis and costs..not past/average, global coe. Perhaps You should re read the article and stay on topic.
Greg Wilson
Greg Wilson
December 8, 2012
The Kochs pay scientists to lie about global warming. Can we charge the scientists with being Tokyo Roses? Many of the scientists went to American schools paid by taxpayers, that is treason! From Wikipedia; The name "Tokyo Rose" is most strongly associated with Iva Toguri D'Aquino, an American citizen born to Japanese immigrants. D'Aquino broadcast as "Orphan Ann" during the 15-20 minute D.J. segment of the 75-minute program The Zero Hour on Radio Tokyo (NHK). The program consisted of propaganda-tinged skits and slanted news reports as well as popular American music.
Toguri was detained for a year by the U.S. military before being released for lack of evidence. Department of Justice officials agreed that her broadcasts were "innocuous". But when Toguri tried to return to the US, a popular uproar ensued, prompting the Federal Bureau of Investigation to renew its investigation of Toguri's wartime activities. Her 1949 trial resulted in a conviction on one of eight counts of treason. In 1974, investigative journalists found that key witnesses claimed they were forced to lie during testimony. Toguri was pardoned by U.S. President Gerald Ford in 1977.
ANONYMOUS
December 8, 2012
Mr. cliff-claven, your facts are all screwed-up WAAAAY before 2010 screwed. For one, in one of your posts you claim solar energy hits earth at 300 watts/meter sq..Wrong. It is 1000 W/meter2. So, my main question is on your current estimations, you are leaving out some of the installed and maintenance costs on fossil and putting in those costs of wind immediately. Try over a 25-30 year period. At year 25 turbines are pumpin out juice with low maintenance and at a great profit and paying for the next generation of THEM.(2) in the Oil and Nat. gas/ fossil fuels biz which I am in, the costs of install and maintenance and maintenance toxins and disposal are tremendous. PEAK OIL IS INEVITABLE!!!!! Just buy in to wind and Geothermal and ANY corp. is set for the next 100 years, EASY. Cliff you need to do some more research reading of peer-reviewed works.
Richard Mignogna
Richard Mignogna
December 8, 2012
Actually, Cliff-Clavin's numbers are consistent with what has been published by both the IEA and our own DOE (interested parties may want to consult IEA Wind Task 26: The Past and Future Cost of Wind Energy). The IEA numbers typically are historical and cover existing facilities of different vintages. JohnIhle, you cite wind costs for new facilities so the comparison there is not fair either. For example, what is Xcel's average cost for wind? It is not $35-$50 with the PTC as you imply. Same is true for other generation sources. Don't compare marginal costs to the installed average.

Cliff's original premise, however, is dead on. Both sides selectively cite and sensor data to make their case. This is especially true of job impact studies. The bottom line is that you tell me what point you want to "prove" and I can construct a study to get you there. That is really unfortunate. I expect as much from certain business and trade groups but I expect more from a group from any organization that touts its credentials as "scientists."

While I'm on this rant, to all who comment herein (Cliff, JohnIhle, etc.) professional discourse demands that you uncloak and identify yourselves and your affiliation, if any.

Rich Mignogna
Renewable & Alternative Energy Management, LLC
Golden, Colorado
David Bruderly
David Bruderly
December 8, 2012
The focus on electric rates overlooks the fact that most people are impacted by their total energy use and cost -- homes, offices, transportation and industrial production process. America needs policy that motivates businesses and consumers to take an integrated approach that gives them market power over their energy suppliers, be they a regulated electric monopoly or the unregulated Oil Oligopoly (aka OPEC). We need policy that motivates and empowers businesses and consumers to take control of their total energy use and responsbility for their total life-cycle emissions -- homes, offices, transportation and industrial production. Shift the debate from nitpicking technologies and focus on changing energy systems in practical ways that yield tangible emission reductions -- NOW! For example, a warehouse could convert its truck fleet from expensive, dirty diesel fuel to cheaper, cleaner compressed natural gas. The fuel cost savings are significant; these savings could then be used to offset the higher cost of rooftop solar -- the fleet owner reduces emissions from the building and the fleet and saves money as well.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
December 8, 2012
....to the Koch brothers this is persoanlly directed....THIS year I told my oil heating company I will no longer burn oil...they have nothing else to sell me....any shareholders should be concerned....if governments fail to lead .....then shareholder and the consumer can.....simply use anyother alternative....THE COST OF OIL IN CENTS AND DOLLARS HAD ALL BUT CRIPPLED THE GLOBAL ECONOMY...WITH A 200% INCREASE IN PRICES TO THE CONSUMER IN RECENT YEARS (8-10 YEARS).....BUT EH REAL COST OF OIL IS MEASURED IN "SENSE" NOT CENTS.....MAY THE KLOCH BROTHERS BE AWARE....GOD IS WATCHING YOU SYSTEMICALLY POISON OUR AIRE, OUR WATER, OUR SOIL, OUR MOTHER EARTH.....AND YOU AER KILLING OUR CHILDREN....MR KOCH BROHERS YOUR SOULS WILL BE JUSDGED FOR YOUR EVIL DEEDS ON EARTH...YOU STUPID STUPID STUPID BUSINESS PEOPLE...MAY YOUR HAREHOLDERS FIRE YOU FOR LACK OF LOOKING OUT FOR THE LONG TERM VALUE.....SAHME ON YOU !!!
John Ihle
John Ihle
December 8, 2012
The level coe of on shore wind in the U.S. is much less expensive than what you've shown, or the Koch studies indicate, as compared to the "world" cost even without the ptc. Your information is outdated. My source are projects I am affiliated with, e.g. we crunch numbers.

Matter of fact, without the PTC, on shore wind can done in low wind areas for about 55 - 70 bucks/mwhr. With the PTC wind is being done at about 35 - 50. I'll try not to second guess why you pick and choose which country or the "world" cost of energy and use old information.

I agree with Niels. Not only is solar cheaper than you show (you use outdated data) but there should be a value on carbon, mercury, particulate matter and a host of other problematic emissions.

When you take all the tax treatment out I'd like to see the comparisons for the U.S. at current costs. Wind and solar have come down dramatically while nuclear, coal have gone up and who knows what will happen with gas. It's cheap now but historically it has been volatile. And there may be issues with chemicals utilized in the fracking processes used to capture it. Oil, too (in the U.S.).

And; I like your source; the nuclear energy industry. Good one. At least you cite it.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 8, 2012
@Niels: The data I presented is from 2010. I'm sure there will be changes when 2011 data is published and I will eagerly trade up. I believe in global warming and that we should work to minimize our emissions footprint across all pollutants and greenhouse gases. I also believe we need to consider externalities and opportunity costs and risks against the benefits evenhandedly across all energy alternatives. If we are honest, solar is not yet at the point where the fossil fuels consumed and emissions produced in mining and manufacturing and transporting and installing (and ultimately decommissioning) PV solar and inefficiently running conventional power plants as spinning reserve and making the necessary infrastructure capital investments for power grids and storage are compensated by the energy benefit. However, solar breakthroughs are going to happen to put PV solar well beyond break-even in the not too distant future. We should only fund R&D until we clearly get beyond this point and then push to mass-market and install residential solar. The wiser folks will have their roofs empty for a few more years and be ready to put the better panels on rather than being locked into a negative ROI for 10 or 15 more years with current panels or sending their current hardware prematurely to the landfill. Even more promising in my view is work to create liquid fuels through artificial photosynthesis by turning solar energy directly into liquid fuel by reforming CO2 and H2O into hydrocarbons. The only way to make biofuels work is to skip biomass altogether. We should not fail to appreciate that coal and petroleum and natural gas and the electrification and centralized power generation they have enabled have vastly improved air quality and health over historical in-home burning of wood (biofuel). WHO estimates that 2M people a year die (mostly children) from indoor and outdoor pollution from wood burning stoves. Solar and biofuels have externalities just like other options.
Niels Wolter
Niels Wolter
December 8, 2012
Cliff

In the last three years solar electric system prices have fallen by about 50%, so Solar PV prices are probably closer to 100.

Also what about anthropogenic climate benefits? Even if you are not sure about climate change there is a risk, and all risks carry costs.

If you do think climate change is happening and society's number one threat (alas I do), then using a discount rate on low carbon technologies really seems wrong. Put a 10% discount rate on the value of the planet and it has about zero value in 20 years. How about putting a 10% discount rate on your child's future... or on him/her.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
December 8, 2012
Both sides of this issue selectively cite and censor to make their cases. Negin's article above is no better than the Koch studies. To get beyond the special interests and partisan politics and personal biases, it is helpful to actually leave the country and look back at ourselves with international eyes and international data. The International Energy Agency in 2010 collected data from 190 conventional and alternative power plants in 23 countries. Here are the US figures, with data from other nations substituted where US data is lacking.

Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCOE) USD/MWh @ 5% discount rate (without/with $30/tonne carbon cost):

Nuclear (US) 48.73
Black Coal PCC (US) 46.09 72.49
Black Coal IGCC (US) 48.47 74.87
Black Coal IGCC CO2C (US) 65.43 68.04
Gas CCGT (US) 61.84 76.58
Gas AGT (US) 76.74 91.48
Gas CCGT CO2C (US) 90.43 91.90
Onshore Wind (World) 90.00
Offshore Wind (US) 101.02
Solar PV (US) 215.45
Solar Thermal (US) 211.18
Solid Biomass (US) 47.04 53.77
Biogas (US) 47.53
Geothermal (US) 32.48
Hydro (Brazil) 19.00
CHP Simple GT (US) 26.61 40.58
Oil (Mexico) 87.84 104.63
Fuel Cell (US) 166.43 181.17

Bottom line: whether it shows up on the monthly power bill, or is hidden by subsidies and payed for by taxes, or is financed by government deficit spending and paid for in inflation, electricity from alternative sources is very expensive.
(Source: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, International Energy Agency, and OECD Nuclear Energy Agency. Projected costs of generating electricity. Paris: International Energy Agency, Nuclear Energy Agency, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, 2010. http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/2010/projected_costs.pdf ).

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Elliott Negin

Elliott Negin

Elliott Negin, the director of news & commentary at the Union of Concerned Scientists, was a foreign news editor at National Public Radio, the managing editor of American Journalism Review, and the editor of Nuclear Times and Public Citizen...
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