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Hurricane Sandy Uncovers Strength and Simplicity of Renewable Energy Systems

Superstorm Sandy can't kill wind and solar.

Elisa Wood, Correspondent
November 01, 2012  |  86 Comments

Print

Wind and solar are relatively safe forms of energy, a feature that we tend to overlook until a disaster hits like the "superstorm" that disabled New York City's power grid this week.

Unlike fossil fuel plants, they require no combustible fuels to generate electricity.  And there is no danger that they will leak radiation as did the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant following last year’s tsunami in Japan.

Hence, the Northeast’s wind and solar farms evoked little public anxiety this week when Hurricane Sandy hit – unlike the nuclear and fossil fuel infrastructure. Safety officials kept a careful eye on the nuclear power plants and three were shut down in New Jersey and New York. And the smell of natural gas in any flooded areas drew quick attention from those who understood the danger.

These anxieties speak to a larger difference between renewables and conventional generation.  Specifically, wind and solar operate under simpler systems that are prone to fewer problems, say renewable energy advocates.

Simple Design, Simple Operations

First of all, wind and solar do not need additional energy inputs to produce electricity or cool a reactor, said John Kourtoff, president and CEO of Toronto-based Trillium Power Wind. There is no need for natural gas, oil or coal to be excavated, transported and applied to the system. Instead, they produce electricity by taking advantage of a form of energy that is already available – wind and sun.

Second, they mimic nature in design, so they tend to be more resilient and withstand natural disasters better, he said.

 “Renewables at their core are simple bio-mimicry based on nature. This simple and closed aspect makes them successful when storms and natural disasters happen, whether hurricanes, earthquakes, or tsunamis,” Kourtoff said.

He pointed out that last year’s tsunami in Japan devastated a nuclear plant, but wind turbines near the shore suffered no harm.

Wind and solar farms mimic a natural cell-like structure, so they are less likely than conventional power plants to succumb to a cascading failure, according to Kourtoff.

You lose a blade on a wind tower and you don’t lose the whole wind farm — just like you don’t kill a flower if a petal comes off. But for more complex energy systems, like fossil fuel and nuclear plants, failure in one part can bring down the entire production facility in a cascade, he said.

“You can put a spike through a solar panel yet the rest of the solar farm runs because it runs on a cellular-like model. If one cell is not operational, the others continue to operate,” he said.

He calls nuclear and fossil fuel plants industrial age technologies, and recent wind and solar, “Renewables  2.0,” designs that have grown simpler, with fewer moving parts and more efficient functioning.

Kourtoff also likened wind and solar design – at least in philosophy – to the products created by Steve Jobs, which emphasized simplicity, elegance and human appeal.

“Why do people like Apple products? They like them because of the simplicity of design. People see beauty in simplicity, in nature. You never hear anyone say, ‘Look at that beautiful nuclear plant.’ But if you see wind turbines moving gracefully in the water, they look beautiful,” Kourtoff said.

The simplicity also offers practical benefits.

“In terms of renewable energy, it can certainly help the grid come back quickly from weather situations like Hurricane Sandy,” said Carol Murphy, executive director, Alliance for Clean Energy New York. “It can take nuclear plants a week or more to come back online. Wind and solar, like other generators, do shut down during extreme weather conditions, but they can be back up and produce power quickly.”

How Did Renewables Weather the Storm?

Based on early assessments, renewable energy facilities seemed to fare well during Hurricane Sandy. ISO New England said it received no reports of any damage to wind or solar facilities from the storm.  

Iberdrola Renewables, which owns wind farms in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York and Pennsylvania, reported few problems.

“We monitored the situation through the night and shut down sites as a precaution to protect equipment from extreme winds. Inspections today have revealed minimal damage so far.  We are very satisfied with the response of our people and the performance of the sites through an exceptional event,” said Jan Johnson, Iberdrola Renewables’ communications director.

Long Island suffered some of the most severe destruction, wiping out service to most of the Long Island Power Authority’s 1.1 million customers. But the island’s 32-MW Long Island Solar Farm appears to have come through fairly well.

Nothing “catastrophic” happened at the facility, according to Matt Hartwig, spokesman for BP Alternative Energy, which operates the solar farm. “They are beginning their assessment, which initially shows damage to the fence around the facility as well as some module damage, the extent of which is not yet known.”

New York, Connecticut and other hard hit areas happen to be in various stages of devising long-term energy plans. We’ll soon see if Hurricane Sandy – and lessons learned about renewable energy performance in storms – will add a new dimension to policy decisions about the future role of wind and solar.

Lead image: Hurricane via Shutterstock

86 Comments

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David Warner
David Warner
November 15, 2012
Glad to know that most renewable energy sources have come up through the disastrous Sandy. Thank you Elisa for the amazing news. Yes, as you have sited in the article, renewable energy sources are simple to use with simple operations. But, some anonymous user have commented that solar energy needs food land. However, I want to say that solar energy can even produced from solar panels mounted on roof-tops and no-farming lands also can be used as solar firms. It doesn't necessitate the use of agri-lands. Also same with the use of wind generators and can be generated as single or in a firm. And to that they don't add to Global Warming.
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 11, 2012
chitrak-ojha
VLAB will examine the technology and economics to make this transformation possible.

I'm in ...................

We need to replace the fossil fuel power plants, the primary source of GHG. Now!

At a scale required to accomplish this task :

Ethanol starves people : not a viable option.

Fracking releases methane : not a viable option.

Cellulose Bio Fuel Uses Food Land : not a viable option

Solar uses food land : Not a viable option

Wind is Intermittent : Not a viable option



All Human and Agricultural Organic Waste can be converted to hydrogen, through exposure intense radiation!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/DennisearlBaker/2012-a-breakthrough-for-r_b_1263543_135881292.html

The Radioactive Materials exist now, and the Organic waste is renewable daily.

Ending the practice of dumping sewage into our water sources.

Air, Water, Food and Energy issues, receive significant positive impacts .

Reducing illness / health care costs as well !



Dennis Baker
* Creston Avenue
Penticton BC V2A1P9
cell phone 250-462-3796
Phone / Fax 778-476-2633
Chitrak Ojha
Chitrak Ojha
November 10, 2012
Hi All,

Innovators with breakthrough technology finally meet the scale and efficiency requirements of grid level energy storage. For the first time last year, investment in renewable energy infrastructure was higher than in fossil fuel infrastructure. With grid-scale energy storage, intermittent sources of renewable energy, such as wind and solar, become viable for the grid. VLAB will examine the technology and economics to make this transformation possible.


Join us on the 13th at Stanford to discuss Grid Energy Storage. Click on the link to register online!

http://www.vlab.org/article.html?aid=455
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 9, 2012
ROBIN-MOULDER. Sorry, I have no idea how that happens. I apologize. I think this dialog is important. I am on a MacBookAir, so I will check the settings. Thanks, and am sorry. Ron Barrett
Rematog - The Original
Rematog - The Original
November 9, 2012
Ronald,

Are you aware that you double post every post. If this is intentional, please stop, it is quite annoying.


If it is a technical issue, please see if you can fix it.
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 8, 2012
Larry, Ref. my "complex" remark. I deal a lot with the public and those that come in to buy, think one just says, "That is what I want." Simple.

Then we start with the questions. How much do you think you want to spend? ROI? Finance? House hold energy use profile? Codes where you live? Life cycle you want to pay for? Energy storage amount and type? Three... pages later of questions we start laying an RE answer out.

In our case, it is an integrated (solar+wind) system (ACSS), DC to AC, stand alone with multiple energy storage form, that comes as a "family" as it can be added to as one develops needs (get larger) that in most cases requires a financial arrangement,,,, which leads to integrating with normally a bank, and meeting neighborhood guidelines. Complex to say the least companies like us.

Lone RE systems, like just solar panels, or just a traditional wind turbine are as you hint, not complex. ASWE's solar with Savonius are to work in Low Reynolds number, omni-turbulent air flow. A good example of this is a city alley, where it is hung between buildings. Particularly in area where there are land-sea breezes, as the Savonius does not care which way the wind comes from: so never weathervanes. Nor does it have such a tail. It is safe low down and runs in wind velocities (Vmin) much lower than a prop-type wind mill.

We think (one never really knows) we are one of the only RTD&T RE companies working in omni-turbulent flow. We certainly have learned a lot about it over the past few years.

I appreciate being able to exchange ideas, be questioned by peers on what we are working on. Our best to all, Ron Barrett, American Solar Wind Energy, Chief Engineer
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 8, 2012
"Believe me RE is much more complex as a system than many think"

Not certain exactly what you're referencing to here as "complex"

I work as an R&D engineer in RE at many levels and although integrating this source of power in a safe and practical manner requires careful design and proper selection of hardware I really would not choose complex as the operative word.

Any issue that a utility engineer would encounter across the grid is no more or less complex than what we deal with all the time.

As a matter of fact in my opinion none of it is "Rocket Science"
The tiny microchip has in the last few years allowed solving some problems many engineers felt were insurmountable at one time.

Every day I'm seeing truly elegant solutions emerging for just about every issue of power production,regulation,interconnect and even lately storage.

So complex?

Hmmmmmm!
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 8, 2012
Those of us in the RE industry know the technical problems that must be whipped to get a good product into the general market. Believe me RE is much more complex as a system than many think. Right from the beginning one must look at it as "a system enterprise." Just to build a wind turbine, clean up it's power, store the energy generated and then deliver it in a safe manner over the time it is needed is a real effort.

It is necessary we stop and work the RE effort from the very introduction (Public Policy) to the very end user (the general public). Associations like the American Wind Energy Association and its solar likeness are the best to work through.

No one-way-RE will work for all. Believe me RD&T takes real effort on everyones part to get to the applicable RE system for any one area. RE types must in most cases be integrated. Actually doing this requires a lot of safety procedures (and UAL approvals).

Let us all keep working on this as it is needed. Ron Barrett, Chief Engineer, American Solar Wind Energy (ASWE) americansolarwindenrgy@gmail.com
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 7, 2012
PLEASE, those of you that enjoy posting sarcastic, nasty, ignorant, non-technical remark: Use on one the social media sites.

Those of us in engineering & Research & Development are extremely busy trying to solve the problems of energy. We do not have time to waste sorting through snarky remarks. Your cooperation really would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Ron Barrett, Chief Engineer, American Solar wind Energy RD&T
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 6, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RblOHCXKgl8

Since a post referring to the victims of Sandy as being badly in need of gasoline,actually spurred me to respond with surprise over essentially 18th century thinking in a 21st century world I thought this You Tube video could be a bit enlightening.

At least to those of us not afflicted with a case of Stockholm Syndrome as relates to our irrational addiction to daily doses of 'the fix' from the fossil fuel Kings.

Of course a fat, ignorant and drug addicted blow hard, sitting behind his so called EIB microphone each day says periodically "WHO WOULD WANT ONE OF AL GORES STUPID ELECTRIC CARS".
Andrew Kazantsev
Andrew Kazantsev
November 6, 2012
@macarthur-robert-342573,

I just showed potential. Air HES can be brought in the Gulf and in general avoid hurricanes. Of course, will not be 500 W/m2, but 100 W/m2 can be designed for normal weather - still these rains fell in the ocean would be useless and the climate of land would not have influenced.

It can be done and be as cost-effective as it is simply the work of the water cycle. And I'll prove it when build real systems ...

About Chernobyl, we are not alone - so happy. The U.S. and Japan have their lost NPP. And it will irreversibly move on ... :( Not LOL!
William Fitch
William Fitch
November 6, 2012
Hi: my, my...
First, Ayn Rand is a common example of human beings ineptness at putting. When faced with a ball position on one far edge of the green, a long way from the pin, (Ayn Rand growing up as noted) rather than putting the ball with a well calculated amount of force, they slam it and wind up zipping right past the pin and land on the other far side of the green (Laissez-faire capitalism). SO, I would call Ayn a bad putter because she failed to see the common denominator. MONEY AT THE TOP!! No matter what government label you place on a country, if the money is controlling the top it will crumble, eventually into revolution. WHY? Because in 10,000 years we still have not learned that humans have compassion for a reason, as opposed to just being sharks.
AS for the Republicans and the Koch Brothers. Koch first. They don't deny Global warming!! They and the fossil fuel scientists were the first ones to know that it would happen, decades in advance. They just profess and market denial to stave off regulation which would cut heavily into their Trillion dollar profits!! Look at A.L.E.C., the American Legislative Exchange Council. They wrote an inside document (Which came out) titled, "Warming up to Climate Change". It details how to PROFIT from Global Warming!! Arctic drilling anyone!!. ALL THE DENIAL is to confuse the dumb masses so they don't press politicians to pass regulations. THAT IS THE WHOLE GAME!! PERIOD. As for any admiration, that the conventionals employ scientists... PLEASE... it is hardly out of altruism....

.....Bill
ROBIN MOULDER
ROBIN MOULDER
November 6, 2012
Andrew,

So, you have a power plant the only delivers peak power during a thunderstorm. Or a hurricane. What are you making the mooring cables out of to hold down a 1 km2 sail during a hurricane? And what can hold up cables that strong?

NPP using 100 km2 of "lost land"? I don't think anyone is suggesting we build graphite moderated reactors with no containment dome, i.e. Chernobyl

I want to see the environmental impact statement on collecting water on a 200 km2 of mesh. It would have an effect on weather patterns of a small mountain range.

LOL, this is just too funny.
Andrew Kazantsev
Andrew Kazantsev
November 6, 2012
@macarthur-robert-342573,

1. Yes, my goal - decentralization. I am originally a nuclear engineer, worked at the NPP like Chernobyl, and I know what threatens the power centralization in one big place.

Therefore, in this example the evaluation was carried out for the minimum productivity - passive fog collection system ~ 2 W/m2 for private Air HES.

2. Now let's see what we really gives nature, if we want to build a powerful station on the tropical coast.

In a thundercloud, we have up to 5 g/m3 of water. Let it be only 1 g/m3, the altitude of 5 km, the usual wind speed here of 10 m/s, we get 500 W/m2. Your unit of 600 MW is ~ 1 km2 of mesh for my Air HES. Not so much. Your unit is on the ground with the same space. And this land is lost. But I need only in a place for the turbine, the rest part is on the altitude of 5 km.

At least in Russia a NPP takes ~ 100 km2 of lost lands (Russia - the big country :)

3. At the same time you can see where does this power of hurricanes and tornadoes - only 1 km2 of cloud has the same power as your unit of 600 MW. Only Air HES can take down and dispose of this monstrous energy until it once again did not smash to pieces a couple of your States!
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 6, 2012
Jandre I could not agree more

Although I have installed everything from a small off grid to large mega watt PV I have never covered any food producing soils,or would I, and the other beauty of distributed (roof top,parking lot etc) PV especially when using the new power factor correcting inverters is the built in grid stability PV offers across thousands and thousands of networks and radials now plagued by poor power quality.

Also it is a no brainer when you also include full AC Coupling,either as a master/slave like some inverter companies offer or as an add on such as we manufacture.

That way when another Sandy comes and batters down power lines the smart folks will still have lots of power from sunup to sundown and with just a little tweeking they can even watch their favorite lousy TV show or at least read a book with adequate lighting and the food in the fridge isn't spoiled. All without begging for a little can of gas to run a noisy stinking generator with power quality so poor it can actually cause fires. Yes I just read of an occasion of this in the news.

There really is no downside to more distributed PV systems

Of course without all these 'creatively' financed mega watt PV systems Goldman Sacs and the tax cheats may find the distributed model to have some shortcomings.
Jim Andre
Jim Andre
November 6, 2012
@Dave Fisher. Bulldozing the deserts for solar is the last thing we should do if the goal is to reduce carbon released into the atmosphere. Desert soils are carbon sinks, there is more tons of carbon stored just in desert soils than in the earth's atmosphere. Grading desert soils releases carbon (for hundreds of years), negating the offset of carbon added to the atmosphere by fossil fuels. The solution is to place solar on rooftops, parking lots and on degraded sites (as suggested by EPA).
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 6, 2012
macarthur-robert-342573 Solutions that call for the removal of all fossil fuels immediately are non-starters....................
So says the fossil fuel industry ( sucks to be them )




dave-fisher-146619 sorry dude but you just don't get it!
this does not replace the fossil fuel powered electrical generating facilities globally!The seriousness of situation is lost on you!
http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/sustainability/publications/low-carbon-economy-index/index.jhtml
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 6, 2012
Solutions that call for the removal of all fossil fuels immediately are non-starters, first, because that would result in such disruption, death, and destruction that emissions would be the least of your worries. Second, you would need to be ready with another huge capacity affordable energy to replace it that you are sure of all the effects. Third, the rest of the world is not about to follow our lead any time soon. In fact, the US is the ONLY country that seems to be giving this subject anything other than lip service.

So grand top down schemes are not very practical. I vote for Jandre's suggestion - keep it local and decentralized Example: I replaced my old electrical Malibu lights with solar when they became cheap and plentiful enough that no one would rip them off, and effective enough to last several hours into the night. But that's Arizona, may not work up north. Still, I bet there are technologies for all kinds of applications up there.
Anyway, get the public into it and let them drive the market to compete with products that save them $ - that works. It's why TV or a computer are 100 times more powerful and 10 times cheaper than they were 10 years ago, and 10 times more energy efficient. Can't do the same with renewables?
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 6, 2012
macarthur-robert-342573 "Can we focus on generating solutions"

that would seem like the appropriate response to getting.
"Bitch Slapped by Mother Nature "!
Waiting till she "Curb Stomps Us", before we pay attention, is not a viable option. So if your not part of the solution you truly are the problem.
Sandy did more damage than any terrorist action could ever, hope to achieve.

I suggest this as a viable course of action :

In my opinion



We need to replace the fossil fuel power plants, the primary source of GHG. Now!

At a scale required to accomplish this task :

Ethanol starves people : not a viable option.

Fracking releases methane : not a viable option.

Cellulose Bio Fuel Uses Food Land : not a viable option

Solar uses food land : Not a viable option

Wind is Intermittent : Not a viable option



All Human and Agricultural Organic Waste can be converted to hydrogen, through exposure intense radiation!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/DennisearlBaker/2012-a-breakthrough-for-r_b_1263543_135881292.html

The Radioactive Materials exist now, and the Organic waste is renewable daily.

Ending the practice of dumping sewage into our water sources.

Air, Water, Food and Energy issues, receive significant positive impacts .

Reducing illness / health care costs as well !



Dennis Baker

Penticton BC V2A1P9
cell phone 250-462-3796
Phone / Fax 778-476-2633
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 6, 2012
People. Can we focus on generating solutions and cease and desist with the squabbling and finger pointing--the latter accomplishes nothing. Thank you.

This is what I meant to amen
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 6, 2012
Amen
ROBIN MOULDER
ROBIN MOULDER
November 6, 2012
Andrew K.

While your pet concept, Air HES, might... if developed by Angel Investors... be of use in remote areas of the developing world, it is not viable for replacing the bulk electrical system in the developed world.

Based you your own website's claims, i.e. 100 m^2 of collection surface generates 200 kw-hrs / month, i.e. 2400 kw-hr/year, it would take 197 sq-km of surface to replace one, just one, base load central power plant (600 MW capacity, 90% capacity factor). So the plant that I work at with three units would need to replaced by a surface 3 km tall (from 2000 m (6,500 ft) elevation to 5000 m (16,500 ft) elevation) and 200 kilometers long. And this does not include the hydrogen filled Hindenburg 125 miles long to hold it up!

I must admit, no one can claim that Russians don't think big...
Andrew Kazantsev
Andrew Kazantsev
November 5, 2012
@jandre & all,
The answer is Air Hydropower! See comment #35
Jim Andre
Jim Andre
November 5, 2012
Decentralized generation of renewables (the kind that is democratic and doesn't cater to corporate greed nor squander our last remaining wildlands) is the solution. The question is how to we get there.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 5, 2012
kimgerly I beg to differ.

It's been a long held tradition among debaters and those who feel they have something to offer that ILLUSTRATION OF ABSURDITY BY BEING ABSURD can be quite effective.

I have always found it to be a 'door opener' for those willing to walk through it.

It seems to work far better than SITTING AROUND THE CAMPFIRE AND SINGING CUME BY YAH.

Now sitting around the campfire and eating beans while attempting to......... WELL YOU GET THE PICTURE

That one may be lost on those under 50 years of age I suppose.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 5, 2012
People. Can we focus on generating solutions and cease and desist with the squabbling and finger pointing--the latter accomplishes nothing. Thank you.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 5, 2012
BTW

I have no idea if climate change is man made and neither do you or anyone reading this.

Personally I don't care about all the background chatter the Republican Propaganda Organs (Fox Channel. The blond prostitute with a big Adam's apple who looks like the sister of Skeletor,or even the fat drug addict who sold his soul years ago to dumb people down for a buck and fantasizes that he has something called Institute for Conservative Studies)

I just simply look into the consequences of acting the fool sitting around debating how many angels dance on the head of a pin (ESSENTIALLY WHAT ALL THIS CLIMATE CHANGE 'DEBATE' HAS BECOME)rather than seeing that severe oil depletion is going to be a reality at sometime in the future (ONLY THE DELUSIONAL (REPUBLICANS) THINK WE CAN DRILL OUR WAY TO OIL INDEPENDENCE and by the time we get there it will be too late to have a soft landing to a more sane energy paradigm.

Starting now to get off our oil addiction has benefits far in excess of any so called benefits we derive from the current drunken high we now get from massive wasting of our oil and gas resources.

Soon the KOCH brothers will be dead. The name KOCH will go down as synonymous with greed,lust for power and the dumbing down of the unwashed.

Now as for another multimillionaire named Andrew Carnegie?

Perhaps the KOCH's should take a lesson from that source.

NAH! They're Republicans.

They simply cannot help themselves

It's part of that religion to be all that your mother warned you not to become.
John Uphoff
John Uphoff
November 5, 2012
@ Frank Heller,
Please name a distinguished scientist and the distinguished scientific journal in which he or she has published his or her research. Thanks.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 5, 2012
So let's dissect this for the average reader.

"The KOCH brothers (son's of a father who made his fortune picking the pockets of Joseph Stalin building his oil refineries. The majority of the KOCH brothers inherited wealth is tied up in oil industries that would suffer direct loss over climate change. ( YEAH! I SEE NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST THERE)

run one of the world's largest and most successful engineering companies (NOTE THE CONVENIENT EXCLUSION OF A REFERENCE TO THE VAST OIL INTERESTS THEY HAVE. YEAH! THEY'RE JUST SIMPLE ENGINEERS.and employ many scientists (AMERICA'S OLD GERMAN FRIEND ADOLF HAD FAR MORE SCIENTISTS WHO GLEEFULLY SOLD THEIR SOULS TO BUILD WEAPONS TO SUBJUGATE THE WORLD.YES I SEE YOUR LOGIC HERE :'); so to say that Republicans 'strongly reject science claiming humans are the primary cause of global warming' is just plain ignorant.

(ARE THESE THE SAME REPUBLICANS WHO TELL US THAT MAN AND DINOSAUR OCCUPIED THE SAME TIME PERIOD.ACTUALLY HAD SADDLES FOR RIDING THEM.)THAT THE WORLD IS ONLY 6000 YEARS OLD AND FOSSILS ARE ONLY GODS WAY OF TRICKING MANKIND.

ARE THESE THE SAME REPUBLICANS WHO STILL TO THIS DAY INSIST THAT OLD GEORGE BUSH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT ECONOMIC CRASH. ALL THE COMMUNIST OBAMA'S FAULT.

HOW ABOUT THOSE REPUBLICANS WHO KEEP TELLING US ABORTION IS IMMORAL,ALL THE WHILE VAPORIZING WOMAN AND CHILDREN ALL IN THE NAME OF SPREADING DEMOCRACY? THOSE REPUBLICANS?

Besides that are many distinguished scientists who tend to agree with these claims...shall we start with the many (MANY? IS THAT ONE OR TWO. AND WHO SIGNS THEIR PAY CHECKS? meteorologists and the Soviet Academy of Scientists?"(OH! GOOD ONE. A COUNTRY WITH OIL RESERVES EQUAL TO THE SAUDI'S WITHOUT A FREE PRESS AND WHO STILL REPRESS DISSENT.I FEEL REAL CONFIDENT THAT THOSE CLEANER THAN DRIVEN SNOW SCIENTISTS WOULD NOT LIE TO KEEP THEIR JOBS)

RIGHT

AND I JUST CAME BACK FROM A TRIP TO MARS

I REALLY DID

I WOULDN'T LIE.
Frank Heller
Frank Heller
November 5, 2012
The KOCH brothers run one of the world's largest and most successful engineering companies and employ many scientists; so to say that Republicans 'strongly reject science claiming humans are the primary cause of global warming' is just plain ignorant.

Besides that are many distinguished scientists who tend to agree with these claims...shall we start with the many meteorologists and the Soviet Academy of Scientists?

Succumbing to the media hysteria and fear mongering is to undercut scientific skepticism and records kept carefully for hundreds of years, i.e. ocean levels off the coast of Maine actually reveal a leveling of the usual slow rise in the ocean since the last ice age.

Partisan name calling is counter productive and just plain ignorant unless you can pin a confluence of astronomical high tides with a low level hurricane and a Nor'easter on AGW. ..good luck with that!

The most secure energy generating modality was locally distributed Hydroelectric, and the next was hydro dispensed through the grid, then comes local gas fired generators using pipeline gas.

Solar in late fall in the N.E. is minimal at best 3-4 hours when the weather is clear; and 154 MW of wind generating capacity was not only turned off for many hours, but many wind farms used fossil fueled generators to keep their blades turned into the wind.

Please keep the solar/wind marketing hype out of a rational discussion about which mode of electric generation was best, otherwise you only invite investigations of the full impact of major weather events on wind and solar farms.

BTW....another victim seems to be the enthusiasm for off shore wind turbines.
ANONYMOUS
November 5, 2012
Unfortunately, Republicans, and it seems in most cases, Independents, strongly reject any science claiming humans are the primary cause of global warming. They also reject any science supporting the theory evolution just as vehemently. I have rarely met a Republican or Independent where this is not the case. They say they have scientists to support their positions but when I have investigated these scientists, I have always found the there positions have been discredited by other research or peer review. It is a shame that politics should even come into a discussion such as this but it always does and it is extremely frustrating to read comments by individuals that appear to have no understanding of basic science yet know all the anti-science positions of the Right.
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 5, 2012
Kimgerly, Dave Fisher and the other "thinking" folks here. As I said earlier in my #27 comment, there are those of us really conducting RD&T of distributed RE-systems that are to be built as self standing inter-related vertical-tiered generators. The problem is in the introduction phase start-ups must meet their Intellectual Property (IP) protection needs prior to going public. YES big/China companies will outright steal your product! So lawyers are hired before engineers.

And on top of that we must be able to sufficiently address liabilities (law suits) that come with producing "machines." It takes, sadly, years.

It is our belief that in the end, efficient, compound RE generators will be become the norm. Had many of the folks in NY, NJ had these small (4ft tall cylinders SolarSavonius) they would have never had run-down cell/ipods etc. And had LED lighting! Ron Barrett, Chief Engineer ASWE
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 5, 2012
Kimgerly, Dave Fisher and the other "thinking" folks here. As I said earlier in my #27 comment, there are those of us really conducting RD&T of distributed RE-systems that are to be built as self standing inter-related vertical-tiered generators. The problem is in the introduction phase start-ups must meet their Intellectual Property (IP) protection needs prior to going public. YES big/China companies will outright steal your product! So lawyers are hired before engineers.

And on top of that we must be able to sufficiently address liabilities (law suits) that come with producing "machines." It takes, sadly, years.

It is our belief that in the end, efficient, compound RE generators will be become the norm. Had many of the folks in NY, NJ had these small (4ft tall cylinders SolarSavonius) they would have never had run-down cell/ipods etc. And had LED lighting! Ron Barrett, Chief Engineer ASWE
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 5, 2012
@moulder-robin

Nor do I sing praises when undeserved.
In fact I'm far more critical of the industry as a whole than most.

Difference in I'm critical only in regard to hard facts and technical issues. Not as a result of being 'blinded by the light'

Now as to this camp you feel comfortable with?


Ayn Rand is one of America's great mysteries. She was an amphetamine-addicted author of sub-Dan Brown potboilers, who in her spare time wrote lavish torrents of praise for serial killers and the Bernie Madoff-style embezzlers of her day. She opposed democracy on the grounds that "the masses"—her readers—were "lice" and "parasites" who scarcely deserved to live.

Here entire philosophy was born of a knee jerk reaction to her family's wealth being taken by the Bolsheviks in the Russian Revolution. That mental trauma influenced everything she said or wrote.

Are you aware of the fact that Mitt Romney's wooden dummy known as Paul Ryan is also a devotee of this less than stellar example of intellectual purity?

Are you also aware of the fact that Milton Friedman, one of the original architects of the system now rotting America's economic bones also admired her.

It always helps when selecting one philosophy over another to seek out information regarding any track record that philosophy may have revealed over the centuries and see how well it worked.

Libertarianism has never existed at any time in the history of man and never will.

As the first two cave men emerged from the dark to kill and eat the saber tooth tiger some form of government was quickly put together when they both agreed to let a third party arbitrate in the decision to find an equitable means of dividing up the last of the spoiled meat rather than have them kill and eat each other.

Best give that one up and move into the light of seeking knowledge developed through critical thinking and not just chase a fantasy or adhere to a philosophy developed out of rage and fear.
ROBIN MOULDER
ROBIN MOULDER
November 5, 2012
Larry,

Just because I don't sing the hosanna's of PV and wind without mentioning the issues they have, does not put me in the other camp either.

By-the-by, I voted Libertarian or independent in all but one election since the first time Reagan ran. I lean more to the philosophy of Ayn Rand than Grover Norquist. Personally, I feel Grover is as far off track to the right as the American Communist Party is off track to the left.

lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 5, 2012
"There are a lot of good ideas floating around, but I think it's a mistake to go religious with any of them"

I could not agree more on this point of religiosity.

That is why I have been getting more and more aggravated with those who are now firmly committed to this new Religion of Conservative Republican dogma and who have become 'blogger missionaries.Their philosophy has morphed from a political party to a fundamentalist religion.

I react to those who are critical of new ideas simply because the idea does not reflect the 'scriptures' laid out by the 'preachers' of this new religion. These preachers, fully funded by essentially America's New Royalty, have a multi bilion dollar media empire or empires that deliver sermons on a daily basis from thousands of right wing media centers. It's sad but this same anti science,anti progress mindset of theirs has been damaging renewable energy progress for years and their opposition to it is only getting more strident. "drill baby drill" is somehow considered rational and sane? Only by true believers.

They have been so effective in dulling the senses of what previously were rational thinking people that I now hear statements and pre digested talking points from them that are the equivalent of "THERE IS NO GRAVITY". "WATER DOES FLOW UPHILL"

And the zealots stand their ground and defend these positions with the fervor of the Taliban.

Therefore I'm starting to see these folks as being as dangerous as a three year old child holding a loaded gun with the safety off.

The gun being their right to vote and the safety being essentially a lack of critical thinking skills.

Just this one statement that has absolutely no basis in fact or reality to non believer's "quit chuckling and smirking at people in distress - leave that up to Joe Biden." clearly indicates that you may possibly be finding that gun a little too heavy and may do something we both regret.
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 5, 2012
The grid is a highly reliable system, until it breaks. It has provided the erroneous appearance of being an electrical energy storage system simply because of the redundancy of connected generating and its inherent reliability.

The gasoline distribution system is also highly reliable and available, until the grid breaks. The storage connection is not just the photo metaphor of a bucket brigade of people with gas cans feeding small engine generators. Gasoline contains about 125,000 BTUs/gallon. One gallon of gasoline powering a typical<30% engine generator will produce about 10 KW-hr. That gallon of gas cost @$5 plus some acquisition cost. At least $0.50/ KW-hr for emergency power. Add to that actual labor to refuel and maintain a rotating system for longer term use and PV with battery storage is competitive at today's battery prices. Compare lifetime cost of equipment and maintenance and PV comes out ahead.

You could also say that small engine-generators are the most polluting gasoline machines, but why bother, annual carbon monoxide casualties statistics say enough.
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 5, 2012
larryofgalaxy : "First off the sentence structure is so poor I almost need an interpreter to decipher the statement.Secondly there truly is little if any 'rational energy discussion" especially in this country so heavily dominated by the purveyors of irrational and self destructive propaganda known as right wing media"

Baloney. You understand me perfectly. You just don't want to hear it or maybe you're just not used to people standing up to you. Want to know what rational discussion is? Quit posing, quit trying to bully, quit dissembling, and for your own sake, quit chuckling and smirking at people in distress - leave that up to Joe Biden.
Something else about rational discussion; it's not black and white. For example, did you know that CO2 emissions went down in this country last year and that it mostly was because of cheaper natural gas? Don't take my word - here's that right wing media Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/us-carbon-dioxide-emissions-2012_n_1792167.html.
There are a lot of good ideas floating around, but I think it's a mistake to go religious with any of them. The public votes with it feet and it wallet. Try to bully pulpit or legislate them into your view makes you a totalitarian. Calling them stupid makes you a snob. It doesn't win them over.
BTW, to me the biggest hurdle is still storage/battery - there is a lot of research going on here where I work on that topic (IMO this is where the government should be invested- research, not the marketplace.) but I would appreciate other views on that topic.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 5, 2012
The following wind turbines were installed on the Boston-Cambridge Museum of Science installed back in 2009. This information is from the respective machines spec sheets:

Mariah Power Windspire - survival wind speed - 105 mph | 47 m/s
Cascade Engineering Swift - maximum designed wind speed - 64.8 m/s (145 mph)
AeroVironment AVX1000 - designed to withstand 120 mph winds
The Proven 6 - cut-out wind speed - >70 metres/second (>155 mph)
Southwest Windpower SkyStream 3.7 - survival wind speed - 140 mph (63 m/s)

The facility manager briefly emailed me that there were no issues with these machines during Hurricane Sandy. Yes, I have made an enquiry, and am awaiting a reply about more specific information, from the scientists/engineers managing this project i.e. actual highest sustained wind speed, and any other findings.

http://www.mos.org/visitor_info/museum_news/press_releases&d=3336

As far as a disaster scenario goes for this iteration, I think implementing wind turbine generators (WTGs) is particularly elegant way to go, as William Fitch has cited, "...turning a problem into a solution." Sure, perhaps in most locations in a city, small WTGs are not pragmatic because of all the roughness; this particular installation is on the Charles River.
ROBIN MOULDER
ROBIN MOULDER
November 5, 2012
Conventional power plants burning coal, oil and natural gas were not taken off line during the hurricane. Almost all ran continously during and after the storm.

I'm not speaking of emergency generators with limited fuel supplies, but the big central stations.

Power outages were caused by damage to transmission and distribution systems, i.e. the grid. Distributed generation does help people with these issues and is of value.

Of more concern should be that a Category 1 (when it came ashore) hurricane could do that much damage to the grid.

Katrina was a strong Category 3 and Gustov was a reduced to Category 2 shortly before landfall. These storms knock-out the grid as well.

The lesson is that making the grid capable of withstanding storms of what can resonably be expected. Than power, from whatever source, can get to where it is needed.

ANONYMOUS
November 4, 2012
There were several analyses of the impact on Wind farms....complete with maps!!, of Hurricane IRENE.

Basically the farms shut down at 55 mph, a number had to fire up their gas. generators to throttle blades or change vectors to face into the wind.

Wind farms also shut down in response to grid disturbances.

All respondents said they were 'up and running' but several said they would have to inspect bearings, etc. and most admitted they couldn't generate power until the grid was ready to accept it.

Even this comprehensive analysis omitted the down time and loss of power and it's impact on the grid i.e. where did the backup power come from.

The most disturbing finding was how well they said they shed 6" of rain that fell from turbine sites, access roads and transmission R.O.W. Missing along with the lost MW was the impact of all this water on downstream waterways, bridges, fish habitat, etc.

I'm beginning to like Hydro as our # 1 Renewable even more since it is nearly immune to these kinds of weather events.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 4, 2012
To piggyback on Rich's comment. Yes, Bill McKibben has been doing a GREAT job dispelling the myths and misinformation for years. I'm actually attending 350.org's Do the Math this upcoming Friday in Berkeley, CA. http://math.350.org/ I understand that Bill McKibben purposely waited to launch the start of this on-the-road campaign after the (s)election for this reckoning.
Rich Hessler
Rich Hessler
November 4, 2012
350.org is doing a good job coordinating and communicating.

They are planning a fossil fuel divestiture campaign.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 4, 2012
Brainstorming. I'm sure most small wind turbine generators would have to cut-out well before hurricane wind speeds are attained. But it's not to say there are not any potential, elegant solution opportunities, as William Fitch offered up. http://www.allsmallwindturbines.com/

There were, however, some small wind turbine generators installed on the Boston-Cambridge Museum of Science installed back in 2009. I wondered how they faired during Hurricane Sandy? Yes, I have made an enquiry and am awaiting a reply.

http://www.mos.org/visitor_info/museum_news/press_releases&d=3336

Mariah Power Windspire
Cascade Engineering Swift
AeroVironment AVX1000 - good for low aspect ratio buildings
The Proven 6
Southwest Windpower SkyStream 3.7:
Elisa Wood
Elisa Wood
November 4, 2012
The article did mention the shutdown of the wind farms:

Iberdrola Renewables, which owns wind farms in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York and Pennsylvania, reported few problems.

"We monitored the situation through the night and shut down sites as a precaution to protect equipment from extreme winds. Inspections today have revealed minimal damage so far. We are very satisfied with the response of our people and the performance of the sites through an exceptional event," said Jan Johnson, Iberdrola Renewables' communications director.
Martin Nicholson (Author - ENERGY IN A CHANGING CLIMATE)
Martin Nicholson (Author - ENERGY IN A CHANGING CLIMATE)
November 3, 2012
Perhaps Sandy wasn't a big hurricane after all if wind turbines didn't shut down. Turbines typically shut down at wind speeds of 90 km/hr (56 m/hr) to avoid turbine damage. It seems unlikely that any wind farm in the path of a hurricane wouldn't shut down – something the author of this article failed to mention.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 3, 2012
"bet you don't hate to say it; you LOVE saying it. It's this kind of Chicken Little 'thinking' that currently seals our fate when it comes to rational energy discussion."

First off the sentence structure is so poor I almost need an interpreter to decipher the statement.Secondly there truly is little if any 'rational energy discussion" especially in this country so heavily dominated by the purveyors of irrational and self destructive propaganda known as right wing media. A media financed at levels that rival anything America has ever seen in the past and with a direct umbilical cord tied to fossil fuel interests. These Interests are well entwined with those best described as Economic Royalists.
Your statements would appear to reflect your undying loyalty to these modern day Kings.

""The same kind of 'thinking' on the part of the President has the entire economy crippled with high energy costs and the lack of immediate resources to deal with this crisis."

This statement is so far off in some fantasy land that it defies logic that a rational person would utter it. Perhaps you picked this "ripe bit of tripe" up on a recent trip to the same Parallel Universe Mr Romney seems to reside in.

"I subscribe to this list as a big fan of the potential in renewables and look forward to the day when there are market-tested, scalable, and more efficient alternatives to fossils."

Perhaps you do subscribe to this site but you either have a problem with basic reading and comprehension or you only see that which fulfills your preconceived conclusions.

Renewable's are well market tested,scalable in ways that were only dreams as recently as perhaps ten years ago and even the worst of the current renewable's rival the overall well to wheels efficiency of fossil fuels.All in spite of a well orchestrated and heavily financed war on renewable's declared by those fossil fuel interests most threatened by a healthy renewables industry.
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 3, 2012
I rather like william-fitch's suggestion about turning a problem into a solution.

Then you'll love this http://lnkd.in/w7hqvx
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 3, 2012
I rather like william-fitch's suggestion about turning a problem into a solution. It's a shame and a real pity the hospitals in NYC had to evacuate patients, because their gensets ran out of diesel. Perhaps if they had had some properly designed and sited small wind turbines installed on the rooftops, coupled with back up batteries to capitalize on the indifferent forces of Mother Nature, there would not have been a need to relocate all those patients. I'd also like this group to think about steering the focus where making expenditures are concerned toward the notion of long term investment over cost. I was in a solar seminar this past week in SF, and some of the members on the discussion panel were in agreement, that in the USA, we need to steer the manner in which we focus the pitch; it should be investment over cost. The way I see this going down in the future, either way, money has to be spent--but it will inevitably cost A LOT more down the road if we wait.
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
November 3, 2012
I am thinking if we, as I favor, have distributed solar on the roofs of people's homes/businesses...If the home/building is destroyed they probably don't need power going to that home any more. There is of course a small chance of the solar going and the home staying otherwise intact, but that is going to be isolated instances.

Having a grid connection without battery backup is common because the battery backup is not cost effective at this time. It is my hope it will be in the future, but not right now. Based on battery replacement alone, it would double the cost of a solar PV system over a 25 year period. Far less expensive to just tie to the grid without the backup and take your chances until it does become cost effective to install local energy storage.

In a true long term emergency (as in weeks not days), while I wouldn't want to do it, I know what I need to do to swap my grid tied system out into a day-only isolated power system so at least I would have some power as my fuel is the Sun. If I then find enough batteries then bonus.

However, even though I support roof-top solar PV, until we get a cost effective energy storage system for it; it can at most only supply 20-30% of our total electrical needs, but since we are still at or below 1% with solar, still have a long way to go.

Just my experience and opinion,
Rich Hessler
Rich Hessler
November 3, 2012
Larry,

Right on!

Sustainable consumption.

Water, food, shelter, clothing, gold (not BP stock), energy production and transportation, in that order.

Personal independence. Financial indendence. The benefits of ownership lasting generationally.

Panels degrad 1/2%/yr so at around 300 years they are producing at 50%. That's 60 Teslas of value.
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 3, 2012
"I hate to say it but this 'thinking' is what is in the not so distant future going to seal our fate as an extinct species."

I bet you don't hate to say it; you LOVE saying it. It's this kind of Chicken Little 'thinking' that currently seals our fate when it comes to rational energy discussion. The same kind of 'thinking' on the part of the President has the entire economy crippled with high energy costs and the lack of immediate resources to deal with this crisis.
I subscribe to this list as a big fan of the potential in renewables and look forward to the day when there are market-tested, scalable, and more efficient alternatives to fossils. IMO, that end is better achieved by ALL working together on ALL energy sources - not with single-minded sanctimony and fear mongering.
Andrew Kazantsev
Andrew Kazantsev
November 3, 2012
If USA government would spend only 1/1000000 part of this hurricane damage on R&D of Air Hydro Power (http://airhes.com) the Americans could forget about hurricanes and tornado after 5 years forever!
David Curtis
David Curtis
November 3, 2012
Hurricane Sandy warns of Hurricane Romney!

Beware of the winds of change. Man created them burning fossil fuels.
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 3, 2012
please tell me its not on land that could produce food!
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 3, 2012
@macarthur-robert

"Boy, are you kidding? If anything, this storm proves you have to have much MORE gasoline around - take note of the lines for it in the whole east, and the need for generators everywhere."

I hate to say it but this 'thinking' is what is in the not so distant future going to seal our fate as an extinct species.

In this comment I hear the echo of allot previous voices who said things like

"Only a fool would think that cloth and piano wire contraptions like that could ever replace my sturdy mule Miss Milly. Bale of hay and she takes me anywhere I need to go. I see no reason to go any higher off the ground than the back of her saddle"

How about "Mr Edison I've been using that there whale oil for lighting since I was knee high to a bull frog. Don't need no silly electrical lighting bulb. Still lots of whales out there can be caught."

Living in the 21st century and still thinking in the 18th is best left to those well versed in this sort of thing. Somehow a couple of guys by the name of Mitt and Paul come to mind as true experts.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 2, 2012
I have to chuckle a bit when I see the whining and complaining about a lack of electrical power from the victims of Sandy after I just ran a new micro grid system I designed.

The 70kw PV system (installed using those evil subsidies)recently installed on our 80,000 square foot manufacturing and R&D facility supplied a steady supply of electrical power to our micro grid as soon as the transfer switch was thrown and we simulated a power outage.

Clean and well regulated 480/240/120 power without batteries and on a cloudy day.

From 10am to a little past 5 pm the panels and inverter supplied enough power to our critical loads of lighting,computers,some machine shop equipment and many other loads without a single hitch.

The same inverter regularly supplies power to the grid, can do level 3 charging of EV's,can deliver up to 150 kw of grid support when on batteries,corrects most and at times %100 of our power factor correction needs,and could be dispatched by the local utility as spinning reserve.

All of this for less than the cost of a Tesla Roadster even before the rebates and tax credits.

So yes as I see the poor victims of Hurricane Sandy crying the blues over east coast utilities' lack of ability to spoon feed them electrical pablum I do have to chuckle at least a little.

Just how many of those folks are sitting helplessly in the dark,eating cold food from a can and yet have a vehicle or two in their driveway that singly or collectively cost far more than our "silly" PV system?

I'm quite certain those same folks will continue to be smugly critical of the 'solar hippies' who opt to put their money into a PV system.

At least until the hippies lights are on and they eat a hot meal in the next big storm that we know will have to come.

Heh Heh!
William Fitch
William Fitch
November 2, 2012
Hi: Sun and wind are great during a disaster like this. It is the homeowners fault for either wind or sun if they did not request a backup inverter to "become" the grid when it is down, with batteries of course. Wind is particularly elegant in a disaster like this because you are turning the very problem into the solution. At my not very windy location, it is the exact reason why I added a wind turbine to the equation. Most of the time when we loose power, wind is a direct or in-direct cause, so, plenty of energy will be available, sun or no sun...

.....Bill
Luke Divemaster
Luke Divemaster
November 2, 2012
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — Construction has started in Puerto Rico on what will soon be the Caribbean's largest solar energy park.

The $265 million project is being built in southern Puerto Rico and is expected to generate enough electricity to power more than 13,000 homes in the U.S. territory.

The park features 270,000 solar panels and is being financed by CIRO Energy Group and One Planet Caribbean of San Juan and San Francisco-based GCL Solar Energy Inc.

CIRO Group executive Ruben Perez said Friday that the project will help save 236 million barrels of petroleum a year and reduce greenhouse emissions by 217 billion pounds.

Puerto Rico's government also expects construction to start soon on what will be the region's largest wind farm. It will be near the island's southern coast.
Viswa Ghosh
Viswa Ghosh
November 2, 2012
As someone already mentioned, the important point is also to establish distributed generation and consumption. Anything like Sandy will localize the impact a grid or generation failure rather than throw 4 million people into darkness.

Small wind and Solar can enable such distributed generation. They may be hooked to the national grid, but their main role would be feed the local grid. When generation exceeds the local grid demands then it feeds into the national grid. And, vice versa too - if the local generation proves to be inadequate then the local grid draws from the national grid.
Ronald Barrett
Ronald Barrett
November 2, 2012
To Dennis-Houghton and those really thinking on what we need to do relative to energy resources, after three years in research development and testing American Solar Wind Energy (ASWE) has developed an Advanced Compound Solar-Savonius emergency power system "family." The family of our ACSSs will range from micro-watt through 5KW. Cost wise this is a range of $400 through $14,000 a system. Units in size are 4ft tall through 32ft tall. These ACSSs are safe(no propeller), high torque, run in low Reynolds number omni-turbulent winds and are ground level based. Energy storage is by design: "variable." ASWE intends to be in full production this time next year.

So YES, there will be RE emergency power systems:by design!
For more information e-m: americansolarwindenergy@gmail.com
Thanks, Ron Barrett, Pres & Chief Engineer, American Solar Wind Energy LLC
Woytek Kujawski
Woytek Kujawski
November 2, 2012
Apart from some reasonable arguments pro and con:

'Kourtoff also likened wind and solar design, at least in philosophy, to the products created by Steve Jobs, which emphasized simplicity, elegance and human appeal.'

Interesting. Apparently Apple (through Kourtoff) is preparing another legal battle over the wind's sound and invisible shape and,of course, PVs corner angles and thincknesses.
Steve created them in his perfect mind and his philosophy belongs to intellectual properties of Apple.
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 2, 2012
how does this impact all the other interactive issues such as

"[The water and sanitation] crisis claims more lives through disease than any war claims through guns." http://water.org/water-crisis/water-facts/water/
Rich Hessler
Rich Hessler
November 2, 2012
Dennis,

I was wondering about the space requirements.

Here's article on how many solar panels it would take to power the world: http://www.richhesslersolar.com/solar-articles/solar-panels-power-world/

And here's a USA solar quote with ROI at a generous $5/watt. http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/08/united-states-solar-quote
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 2, 2012
(That's ridiculous. Is food grown on roofs or in deserts now?)

solar is not limited to roofs or deserts

at a scale required to replace fossil fuel power plants roofs and/or deserts is not sufficient, and the human/ agricultural waste is available in areas that are not deserts.
dennis baker
dennis baker
November 2, 2012
kimgerly

http://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&gid=1820331&type=member?em=175965588&commentID=101598003#commentID_101598003
Taofeek Ayinde
Taofeek Ayinde
November 2, 2012
I think it is too early to reach conclusion about the superiority of renewable energy system when disaster strikes. I will be interested in knowing what happened to ground-mounted solar PV systems that must have been hit by Hurricane Sandy. Bearing in mind that the cost of electricity from solar PV is essentially from the initial cost of putting the facility down, a 1% damage to a solar farm will have far more consequence, financially, than a similar one on conventional power generation system.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 2, 2012
@macarthur-robert-342573, I imply in my OP that I am solicitous about larger, static renewable energy plants. A renewable energy power plant can ALSO be something that is as small, 50W or less. During disaster relief scenarios, for example, these portable mini-plants (e.g. portable solar array) could recharge cell phones, laptops, so at least communications are not completely disrupted. There are some vendors on the market that already provide products for this very need e.g. Brunton, Voltaic Systems...
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 2, 2012
Local renewable are no help when homes are destroyed.. Neither is fantasizing about nano grids that will be non-existent for decades to come (if at all - some other technology could easily obviate that architecture which is only one proposed option to make the grid more resilient.) The point is, what those people in trouble need right now is gasoline, and they haven't got it in part because of the uncompromising self-righteousness of some.

Also, I don't know, but to me there's something sort of creepy about Monday morning quarterbacking these disaster. Seems like the same people line up after every one of them to lecture us with impossible shoulda, coulda, wouldas. IMO, we are stuck with hybrid energy for some time to come. Smug does not play well with our need to work together.
Rich Hessler
Rich Hessler
November 2, 2012
'Solar on food lands.'

I really like the distributed user owned model of covering parking lots with car ports like at CSU Northridge. Wasted space with few trees and shade for electric vehicles and charging statio.s.
ANONYMOUS
November 2, 2012
Kimgerly's comment #16 is spot on.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 2, 2012
I am a proponent of micro-/nano-grid hybrid renewable energy plants--it's clear from the comments of macarthur-robert-342573's he is not well-versed on distributed generation renewable energy technology. That being said, I encourage the you to invest some time getting up this learning curve. It is also clear by this comment the USA citizenry will be unwilling to do with less, and across all political factions, are not good with dealing with less.
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 2, 2012
The fundamental reason that solar PV will reliably recover after a disaster is that a PV system has no moving parts. Every other generation option does have moving parts and multiple points of failure.
ROBERT MACARTHUR
ROBERT MACARTHUR
November 2, 2012
Boy, are you kidding? If anything, this storm proves you have to have much MORE gasoline around - take note of the lines for it in the whole east, and the need for generators everywhere. Renewables are just as dependent on the grid as any other form of energy, and I doubt whether they were collecting any power during the storm, so they would have been of no use, during or after. You need the gas. And I don't know, but I suspect that the nukes will be the first to bring back power in appreciable quantity.
There are good arguments of renewables, but this is not one of them. Guliani said last night that he could only approve small refineries when he was mayor because of the enviros who would litigate anything bigger ad nauseum. I wonder if they are feeling any guilt today? I doubt it.
Jim Andre
Jim Andre
November 2, 2012
Decentralized generation of solar is safe from storms and terrorism and we should be developing this technology instead of the program Obama has launched to build massive industrial plants in remote areas on public lands. In these, electricity is tethered to a single powerline, quite vulnerable to storms as terrorism.

Then I read this: http://pvtimes.com/news/kern-river-gas-holds-hearings-on-pipeline/

"The BLM is expected to issue a draft environmental impact statement on the gas pipeline in early January, public hearings will take place in mid to late January, Vaillancourt said. A final decision is expected by the BLM in mid 2013, after which Kern River Gas has to apply to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission FERC ." "BrightSource Energy has an application pending before the California Energy Commission to build two, 250-megawatt solar power plants at the 3,200-acre Hidden Hills Ranch along the Tecopa Road on the California side of the state line. While it will produce solar power, BrightSource needs natural gas to help the plant get up to full operating potential when the sun comes up and to keep the transfer fluid warm at night, Smith said."

are these plants a front for a natural gas plant? Natural gas emits up to 30% more C02 than coal when the whole production cycle is accounted for. Pairing it with big solar and wind pretty much negates any offsets.

Are these projects that destroy hundreds of thousands of pristine public lands actually green? Especially given the safe, viable alternatives that rooftops offer? Maybe we should reclassify these as "hybrid" projects...not just "solar". Time to wash off the green facade.
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
KIMBERLY (KIM) KING
November 2, 2012
Yes, as much as I would like to believe renewable energy technologies faired better than conventional power plants, I too must echo the guarded sentiments of RussellThornton, hsgkm, dennis-houghton-41194, brown-bryan-329931, anonymous. Dennis raises a good question, "What happens when we have two disasters at once?" Or for that matter, three, four, …

As much as I would like to think larger, static renewable energy systems will fair better than traditional power plants, I can't help but think they too will be compromised after natural disasters--but to what extent, this remains to be seen. I think because the solar technologies have a faster innovation cycle, measures for decommissioning and recommissioning during disaster events, as well as deploying more distributed generation hybrid micro-/nano-grid systems that are smaller and more modular should be looked at where future contingency criteria and planning is concerned.

The indifference of Mother Nature will certainly continue to do her indisputable bidding and dictate, and I accept what will ultimately be. But the wise choice is to be prepared, adapt and control or eliminate whatever human actions, that we know beyond a reasonable doubt, are affecting the change that will ultimately 'inconvenience' many. I think we also need to acknowledge that the Earth and all its subsystems is a highly dynamic and changing place, and not to be controlled, but rather respected. And, so in respecting this, mitigating the effects of human contributions, er carbon emissions 'doping' into the atmosphere, to climate change/instability we need to be better prepared to adapt. This being said, the RE technology sectors should also probably increase allocating more to O&M, too.
BRYAN BROWN
BRYAN BROWN
November 2, 2012
Anonymous' comment about pollyann'ish commentary is well made. Surviving a tsunami is a much different situation than surviving a superstorm such as Sandy. Let's first see a projection of what could or would have happened to the Long Island offshore wind project, with the wind and storm surge.
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 2, 2012
It is likely that a solar PV system mounted on a home that has remained standing is still functional. The NEC required anti-islanding feature found in most net-metered inverters negates the usefulness to the homeowner. The next phase in PV development may be as standby power systems for emergencies. The necessary load transfer equipment is readily available and not too expensive. The true value of solar PV is its simplicity and modularity in a distributed system. Net metering can be credited for creating todays' PV industry but has reduced the real usefulness of the systems to the end user by preventing easy stand-alone system use. BTW: NY utilities are estimating restoration of electrical service in areas with overhead lines in about 3 days. Restoration of underground systems will take at least 7 days and perhaps longer. 50,000 lineworkers and their equipment from across the country are converging on the disaster area in an industry co-operative response. What happens when we have two disasters at once?
ANONYMOUS
November 2, 2012
Other than a cursory pre-report from a solar farm; there were no facts to back up this pollyann'ish commentary.

Wind farms appear to have been shut down exacerbating grid disturbances; and the prospect of off shore wind farms has dimmed considerably in the face of 40' waves and lose of shore connectivity.

As we know all too well violent weather fluctuations accelerate the normal wear on critical turbine components; and long exposed transmission lines are also vulnerable and perhaps put below restoration of residential, public and industrial service.

The renewable that was least disturbed was hydro; and were it not for the mitigating effect of dams and weirs, flooding would have been out of control.

Surely the author could locate a map of the wind farms in SANDY's path, and their status during the length of weather event, and finally damage suffered to the turbine, access roads and transmission lines.
ANONYMOUS
November 2, 2012
"Solar uses food land : Not a viable option"

That's ridiculous. Is food grown on roofs or in deserts now?
H.S. Gopal
H.S. Gopal
November 2, 2012
Though this is heartening for all renewable enthusiasts, I wish to know whether solar panels on roof-tops and on land withstood the strong winds without being swept away or damaged.
Tushar Mavani
Tushar Mavani
November 2, 2012
Truly the renewable is the right source weather wind or solar for all our needs. We can, if we want, cater to all our needs, domestic as well as industrial, using these renewable energy to the fullest.
ANONYMOUS
November 2, 2012
Russel is spot on. We need much more objectivity.
Russell Thornton
Russell Thornton
November 2, 2012
A positive report, but could be seen as viewed through rose-tinted glasses.

The answer to preventing cascade failure for fossil, nuclear, wind and solar is an intelligent grid. In the UK the majority of solar and wind installations shut down with the grid as a safety measure; so much for preserving embedded generation capacity.

It seems that all four energy sources were 'shut down' during the storm and all four, (with the possible excption of solar) were back up and running after.

We need more clinical analysis of the issues and a more hard-hitting conclusion before the renewable industry can draw any comfort from these events.
hassan ebeid
hassan ebeid
November 2, 2012
good news i was waiting for to add it to my website https://sites.google.com/site/e4poor/
Rich Hessler
Rich Hessler
November 2, 2012
Thats' great news!

Glad to also hear the renewed discussion to adapt to global warming.

Has anyone else noticed fewer fossil fuel industry commercials this past week?

It seems like most systems purchased by homeowners are grid-tied with no special wiring nor storage for critical loads.

What does it cost per watt or kWh to add support for critical loads?

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Elisa Wood

Elisa Wood

Elisa Wood is a long-time energy writer whose work appears in many of the industry's top magazines and newsletters. Her blog on energy efficiency appears on more than 100 sites and has been picked up by the New York Times and Reuters. She...
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