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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Why You Need to Worry About How the Media Covers Climate Change

Aaron Huertas, Union of Concerned Scientists
October 09, 2012  |  138 Comments

Renewable energy developers and advocates often find themselves talking about climate science. And sometimes they run into skepticism and even hostility on the topic. Understanding where bad information about climate change comes from and why some people reject climate science can help us communicate more effectively about climate change as well as the role renewable energy plays in reducing climate-altering emissions.

Scientists are clear when it comes to what they know about climate change. The National Academy of Sciences, which was founded by Abraham Lincoln to advise the federal government on scientific matters, concludes that, “Climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for — and in many cases is already affecting — a broad range of human and natural systems.” 

Unfortunately, public understanding of climate change lags behind our scientific understanding. While a majority of Americans accept that climate change is happening, only a fraction correctly attributes these changes to human activities. Meanwhile, 10 percent of Americans take a “dismissive” attitude toward climate science and think climate change isn’t happening.

Why the gap? Misleading representations of climate science in the media have a lot to do with it. For instance, one research paper found that 60 percent of Fox News Channel broadcasts on climate change rejected mainstream climate science. By contrast, 70 percent of CNN and MSNBC broadcasts on climate change accepted the science. The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) analyzed recent climate science representations on Fox News Channel and in the Wall Street Journal opinion page. Over a six month time period, more than 90 percent of Fox News Channel’s primetime coverage offered a misleading view of climate science. And over the past year, the Wall Street Journal opinion page was misleading on climate science more than 80 percent of the time.

In many instances, speakers and writers rejected climate science in a way that was clearly tied to ideological views they held regarding climate change policy. One notable example was a long interview between Sean Hannity and Sen. James Inhofe, in which they repeatedly referred to climate change as a “hoax” while expressing support for coal, oil and gas drilling. Similarly, a Wall Street Journal column argued, “We are in the middle of what you might call a global warming bubble. It is a failure of the global warming theory itself and of the credibility of its advocates, but also a failure of the various ‘green energy’ schemes proposed as a substitute for fossil fuels.”

It’s frustrating for those of us who value and appreciate science to see such dismissive representations of climate science in these outlets. And it’s alarming for renewable energy advocates to see such similar arguments being made against clean energy technology and policies.

So why do we see these ideological takes on climate change pop up in the media and public so often? 

A study published in the Journal of Risk Research proposed a possible answer: fundamental beliefs we have about how society should function deeply affect how we perceive scientists’ findings about risks society faces. 

For instance, the study concluded that people who are satisfied with the distribution of wealth in society and who favor individual rights are more likely to reject scientists’ findings when it comes to climate change. They see the conclusions of climate science as critical of our current energy system, which they favor. And the policy solutions proposed for climate change, including energy efficiency and renewable energy requirements, can strike these individuals as limiting people’s freedom to use energy as they see fit.

Conversely, people who want a more even distribution of wealth and who favor community needs over individual rights are much more willing to accept what scientists have to say about climate change. They are more likely to be critical of large corporations, including many oil and coal companies. And they see value in protecting the global community against climate change, even if that means changing how we use energy here at home.

For me, the lesson from these studies is clear. It’s not worth getting into endless arguments about whether or not climate change is real. It’s far more productive to directly address the values that inform most people’s opinions on climate change. So instead of trading emails back and forth with a climate skeptic about whether or not climate change is real, it’s better to ask them, “How do you see the debate over climate change policy impacting you personally?” You might be surprised by the answer you get. And you might then be able to have a conversation about how new technology like smart metering, energy efficiency and fuel efficiency can increase the options consumers have, not limit them. Saving money on electricity and gas, after all, means more money for the things we truly enjoy spending on, like entertainment, gifts and other discretionary spending.

The good news is that renewable energy still enjoys strong support among most Americans. But I’m not sure how long that will hold true, especially as opponents of addressing climate change deploy the same tactics they’ve used to attack climate science to undermine public confidence in wind, solar and other renewable energy sources.

In any case, over the long term, we all have to get better at talking to people about climate change. We need a shared understanding of climate science in order to have a productive debate about appropriate responses to a changing climate.

To that end, the United States Global Change Research Program has excellent resources on local and regional climate change. And UCS has put together presentations that address best practices for conveying basic climate science and dealing with difficult conversations about climate change.

Because renewable energy developers and advocates are playing such a key role in reducing emissions, they can also play a key role in explaining what’s happening to our climate in the first place and why it’s worth having a rational, fact-based discussion about it as a society. 

Aaron Huertas is a press secretary at the Union of Concerned Scientists, where he helps scientists communicate their research. Previously, he worked for Congressman Jim Saxton (R, NJ-3) and as an Explainer in the National Air and Space Museum. He received a bachelor’s degree in mass media and political communication from The George Washington University.

Renewable energy developers are an important part of UCS’s network and are encouraged to sign up for updates from the organization on energy policy and research.

Lead image: Get the facts via Shutterstock

138 Comments

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Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
November 1, 2012
Wow, we all agree! Remove all subsidies from all power sources and assign them full costs, including for their carbon footprints.

In that case, all combustion power fails, as do all 'renewables' except for local solar and advanced nuclear.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 31, 2012
...ditto to the last two comments and all the prior coments on this thread that shine commonsense to this global debate....we need change to non-polluting energy generation, and we need to invest and support that change...and to those in the power generation industry, give some serious thought on a career direction to the technologies we must drive our future with...and as well to the media...Mother Earth needs you, our children need you...after all we only have one planet...and its getting pretty messy!
Tim Gulden
Tim Gulden
October 31, 2012
I agree...if you are trying to avoid government money then no one would be opposed to taking away the billions of annual subsidy dollars the government is giving to the exorbitantly profitable non-renewable energies. This money would then be better spent on bettering our society like feeding the starving children and preventing them from dying...O wait, greed would not have that and neither would the people that harbor this brain cancer as they have the same mental dysfunction/genetic disorder as a murderer but are fulfilling their adrenalin rushing desires through greed at any expense of others. Remember...every living person has the right to a full life and if you are preventing this indirectly or directly from happening then you should be held accountable. Again, when are we going to advance our society past this primitive state and make people accountable for their indirect inflicted pain and deaths? I say, take all the subsidies away from profitable businesses and put it towards advancing our society in a positive direction.
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 31, 2012
Hi:

Oh, that's the Proctologist...
Oh, they can't compete, ... Oh, Oh, what shall we do... isn't that what the horse and buggy people used to say about the first people in their steam powered motor cars.. "Get a horse!!"
Dying a hard death is one thing ignorance and vested interests have in common.

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 30, 2012
"oil and gas make much money...and mankind needs that moneynorder to build a cleaner future...my opinion sees the energy giants fully participating in clean technology energy "

Indeed, Chevron, for instance, loves getting subsidies to 'invest' in things like wind power, because they also get tax credits & rebates from us so they can pay less than most citizens do in taxes.

Indeed, the combustion industry has always loved us so much for all the depletion allowances and credits their lobbying has successfully cheated taxpayer out of. The combustion folks just love 'green' power -- they know it can never compete, and yet it can make them $ they hadn't planned on.

Give 'em more! They'll pay us back, some day.
;]
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 30, 2012
.....yes the oil and gas make much money...and mankind needs that moneynorder to build a cleaner future...my opinion sees the energy giants fully participating in clean technology energy ownership.....Mankind and our corporations have the money, shareholders need to wake up and make sure they support the Oil secotr CEO's and Directors who actually decide to run their companies as "going concerns" well into the future...tehy need to slow oil project expansions, and diversify whole-heartedly into clean tech and build a NON-POLLUTING future, for all of our children........teh reason politicians do not like to make this an issue has to do with the media's failure to report facts on the logical evolution of power generation....NON-POLLUTING RENEWABLES....and teh politicians need to set us on a clear course of action that shows they now understand our technology must respect the Earth we all depend on...mankind, and all lving species aof animals, creepy crqlers and plantlife too......for those who fail to mkae the choice that is clearly needed...hisrtory will , in my opinion, be holding them accountaqble....CrCrimes against humnaity for the careless use of science and enginerering.....do not mean to ruffle any feathers...but the power industry has the capacity to move chnage forward..or they can commit by negligence, the crimes against humanity that have caused the systemic destruction our Mother Earth must now try to "balance".....think of this wehn you see your kids tonight...IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE....AND WE CAN ALL SEE THE WARNING...POLITICIANS AND MEDIA ....THIS IS THE GREATEST ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY FACING OUR WORLD AND OUR SURVIVAL ON EARTH DEPENDS ON IT.....those scientific reviews can conclude nothing less unless they hide teh plain facts...we must stop pollution or Mother Earth will do what ever it takes to survive...this may not include our species and many others...but the ball will keepp spinning....tkae this advice or leaveit...."the will of God will be done!
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 30, 2012
Hi: WOW, this is a long thread..??.. Who is Dr. Ass??? Is he a Proctologist??
O&G Has 2.4 Trillion dollars gross profit a year and climbing to direct the whole world as they want. After one of the most devastating years on record from many directions due to mans induced global warming, neither Obama or Romney even uttered the word Climate since their campaigns went into full swing. They are all owned lock stock and barrel. I watched Morning Joe about 3 days ago on MSNBC. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#49595144) They had Dr. Jeffery Sachs on talking about climate and the candidates and he finally put the truth out there getting "real" with his assertions and all the news people around the table turned to STONE for a few seconds!! It was actually kind of funny... Any society will crumble when wealth goes to the top. It does not matter if its old Russia, the USA, Blue or Red... that model does not work....

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 30, 2012
Aw, if I had to hide under a rock during Nova Scotia's 10-month winters, I'd probably be grumpy like Doug too. But therapy might help too.
;]
M. KEITH
M. KEITH
October 30, 2012
Administrator, please exercise your right to delete comments by and terminate the account of Nova Scotia Doug without further notification for assaultive profanity and excessive zealotry without substantiating his assertions with peer reviewed references.
ie:
nova-scotia-doug
October 19, 2012 Comment 123 of 131
...Dr Ass...I must say this, we have provided enough info for others to decide...mine is correct yours is spin and lies.....I refuse to use this dialogue box anymore...attempting to CORRECT spelling and for the thIRd time the whole comment gets wiped out while deleting one word or phrase...THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN...BUT SHIT DOES HAPPEN...AND NUCLEAR REACTORS DO MELT DOWN AND WHOLE SECTIONS OF EARTH ARE LEFT IN DESOLATION...THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN....AND AT SOME POINT IF IT BEGINS TO HAPPEN TOO OFTEN DO TO SHOTTY ENEGINEERING AND CONSTRUCTION OF NUCLEAR....PERHAPS i'LL HEAD A GROUP OF ENVIRONMENTAL FREDON FIGHTERS ...HUNT DUMP FUCKS LIKE YOU AND TEH NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS DOWN ... AND DROP YYOU OFF A T THE rEACTOR core ...MY SHOCK AND SARDONIC METHODS ARE ONLY USED FOR INSINCERE ARROGANT BLINDED ADVOCATES WHO REPEATED LIE TO OTHERS AND MOST LIKELY THEMSELVE...AND YOU THINK OTHERS BLEIEVE YOU LIES ...CLEAN TECH IS SAFE, DOES NOT POLLUTE AND IS CHEAPER AND THE ONLY DIRECTION MANKIND WOULD TAKE IF WE WERE ONLY A FRACTION AS SMART AS WE THINK WE ARE.....DON'T BLAME ME FOR CAPS ////BLMAME IT ON POOR TECHNOLOGY USED AND MARKETED AS DIGITAL COMMUNICAATIONS...SAY WHAT YO WILL BUT iDO NOT THINK YOU ARE A dr OF ANYTHING...AND i WILL NOT COMMENT ANYMORE UNTIL pENwELL CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THIS CHILDISH TECHNOLGY WORK....ENJOY dR ASS...THE OTHER READERS CAN DECIDDE FOR THEMSLELVES WHAT IS BEST NUCLEAR DESOLATION RADOMLY APPLIED OR CHEAP , CLEAN TECHNOLOGY THAT RESPECTS OUR EARTH..MOST SCIENTIST DO NOT SHOW THEY CARE OR UNDRSTND THE EXTENT OF SYSTEMIC DESTRUCTION THEY HAVE IMPLEMENTED ON eARTH...I SUPPOSE YOU BELIEVE THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE...(Balance Omitted)
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
….The government should stop subsidizing and instead… nudge all in the right direction…. by government loans to the waiting energy companies if they invest in clean technology revolution…capitalism will take the clue and go after market share…..if we all waited until computing technology instead of buying into it and driving the advances, we would still be using a 1990 desktop and laptops, notebooks and cell phones would still be a dream…so stop dreaming and lets start replacing dirty technology with clean technology …it is the greatest economic opportunity in the world today, building a sustainable future that will have much cleaner air, water and soil ,…and perhaps the Earth over time can find a balance...I mean we all know about smog alerts so we should want cleaner air….and nuclear does have emissions, scary longterm waste storage issues, uranium mining issues, is too expensive, is centralized so creates loss on the grid, takes too long to build, and can be shut down due to safety leaving no backup, and if we build more reactors the odds for the risk of desolation increases…so I think the power industry needs to get strategic and move forward with safe technologies that do not pollute....people need to be properly informed by both government and media in order to garner mass support and understanding…will mankind "manup" and rise to the challenge?…some are trying…some are denying.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
...The main message shown in my other posts is the cost of renewables is competitive and there are synergies. The goal need to be to stop using technologies that create pollution and capture other pollution that is rich is hydrogen….the sooner we do it , the sooner we create stable prices for power and drive advances in innovation…..I call this shift …"The clean phase of the industrial revolution" and mankind can do this!....and the media needs to do a better job at fact based reporting not just find two opposing sides and give equal PR for the fossil fuel hugging and nuclear naysayers who resort to all manner of fabrications and technical misinformation to confuse the public…
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
........The main message is the variables of clean tech is manageable and the efficiency of the grid helps all forms of energy….we have existing hydro-electric dams (but new ones are destructive), we have tidal ,wave and instream turbine technology, we have wind, we have solar PV and mass thermal turbines, we have geothermal turbines, we Fuel Cells, …the key is to "overbuild" and strategically locate a full mix of clean technology so we will often have excess energy that can be stored by producing hydrogen or charging utility scale batteries so the batteries and the fuel cells can be relied on to meet grid demand should the output of the whole mix of renewables drops at times below the required demand… hence the need to produce hydrogen and charge batteries….the ramp up can be next to instant and……Note as well, much of the fleet of clean tech renewables can be more like a distributed versus centralized nature…and so can the placement of hydrogen production and battery charge stations…..and again, hydrogen can be sold to non-grid supply uses such as transport, material handling equipment, and onsite heat power for heat and electricity in business or home….also note it would make sense for many commercial flat roof tops to house a distributed fleet of solar that is grid tied and rather than have a backup diesel generation set spend the money on battery back up that can be charged directly from the roof top.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
,,,RE The Grid issue…the industry realizes emerging and current technology is needed to solve the grid issues, and much of the cost will be recouped due to a more efficient grid and use of excess waste energy loaded into the grid and not needed due to demand drops and peak variables…..This will also enable better management of all variances of demand and supply that yes, will increase with adaption of clean technology …the excess energy can be leaned out to meet lower demand by powering either hydrogen production , or utility sized battery technology that is also after this market segment.

… Recently Enbridge developed a partnership agreement with Hydrogenics, a Canadian, and a global leader in fuel cell and hydrogen reforming and electrolysis technology. …They are already testing for the North American grid…strategic placement of the equipment can lean out the current in the grid at the flick of a switch …the utilities realize the value of this method for very quick supply demand management has for the grid.
...cont'd next post
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
.....I see biofuel and its subsidies with the same critic, it prolongs fossil fuel use while delaying mass adaption to clean technology (no pollution) and the manufacturers economy of scale…it creates some food issues (and corn is the most pesticide intensive crop)...and again takes subsidies (government nudges) away from the clean tech sector, so people think okay combustion may not be so bad and the message to go clean tech to stop pollution gets muddled again…..the biofuel sector is not all waste though….since I advocate including hydrogen and fuel cells as a crucial clean tech solution, the sources of biogas can adjust the processing and go straight to hydrogen as the final output…example biogas like methane (CH4) could produce hydrogen and carbon can be used in commercial purposes too, …and landfill biogas or plasma gasification via solid-waste practices, and sewage / waste-water management system technologies are viable to provide great sources of hydrogen for non-polluting fuel cells, as can many by-product hydrocarbons and other VOCs found in both industrial emissions and effluents too, voiding even more pollution sources other than fossil fuel combustion.
Continue next post………
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 21, 2012
…@Timgabz….thanks for the advice…and I will follow… stubborn and still think software for websites should be user friendly, versus another open window/file.

First…. per the low energy building issue…there has been much spent on the retrofit and new construction LEED building etc….because government put big incentives on this and of course business benefited, there were even incentives for new appliances…it gave people the impression they were doing their part…and they were…but I would have preferred we pushed and subsidized alternative energy systems first…. providing the same effect on reduction of pollution, but also it would help drive some economy of scale for manufacturers of clean technology and realize price reduction and tech advances sooner ….then retrofits would save yet more…new buildings of course go LEED form here on in…conservation via efficiency partly delayed competitive market forces race to get market share in clean tech (government nudged but the message to go clean tech delivered ?)…the end goal is still good either way.
....cont'd next post
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 20, 2012
Morning, Novia
Find an alternative. I type into Microsoft Word and cut and paste into the forum. I have big issues about Microsoft as well as this forum however I prefer to spell right and look professional.
Take all my comments as a whole.

The grid is a major part of the problem. The cost of a business going off line is extraordinary.

Big govt is trying to keep the grid for it's own taxes and controls yet forcing people to go alternative yet scared of the small guy going totally off grid. South Africa is a case in point. After apartheid the new govt pumped out development projects expanding the grid, then with "environment" issues closed down the older powerstations. Tarriff shifting meant the poor were subsidised by the wealthy. Throw in cutting funding to repair or replace we hit a big brick wall some 5 years back with rolling black outs. They unmothballed power stations and went green(er) with mercury vapour energy savers and forcing solar heating and lower energy buildings.

Lower energy was grabbed by upmarket developers as a strategic rather than green and all in all the consumption dropped amongst the wealthy and went up amongst the poor,,, oops their income crashed.

The reality is that big govt is not flexible enough to directly grow alternative without torching business and messing up the system. With good management it can nudge things so enterprise can do the rest. American initiatives have had subtly of an axe murderer enforcing idealism contrary to market systems with bankruptcies and cynicism.

It is a necessary evolution through new buildings and refits at normal times to reduce power consumption – changing grids to reflect this.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 20, 2012
Nova, you're just piling onto the pile of dung you heap over your words. Time to cut your losses & clam up & maybe learn some science & engineering.
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 19, 2012
Nova, need some behavioral intervention?

Saying "discussing the solution is fucking well part of that" makes what you say have weight, sort of like "DRASS" does?
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 19, 2012
Nova, still with the childish epithets? Has that ever worked for you?

And, still desperately trying to fudge "Wind has Roi kick in at 15 yearsw "

You can repeat it all you like, but the evidence of gearset & generator & convertor issues and all those inconvenient truths not included in wind EROI, like transmission loss, are just gonna blow you over.

Nice try to link in solar, but solar, now at >200W/sqm (>400 for CS PV) peak, and less than $0.80/Watt means the silly wind yield below 150W/sqm is fast becoming a joke, except to those getting subsidy. It's no wonder folks want to let the subsidies lapse for your "mature" wind. It's no wonder Vestas, etc. are laying off.

But wait, apart from loss, wind EROI also doesn't include insurance, de-commissioning, yadda, yadda -- ever wonder how much it costs to remove each of the thousands of 1000cuyd foundations, or the several hundred-ton towers? Oops, like species & land disruptions, not in the EROI!

Interesting that even with your naively obese costs assigned to nuclear, it beats windmills hands down and has already built in all de-commissioning. But wait, only a portion of a nuke needs removal & replacement at EOL, so guess how many $billions it saves when the building and power block get retained, while new Gen-IV reactors get installed, after 40-60 years of operating the oldies at >$1B revenue/year! Now that's EROI.

Why not give my cell a call again, Nova, but this time, don't leave a wimpy epithet, man up.
;]
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 19, 2012
@ Dr Ass...Wind has Roi kick in at 15 yearsw ....and that funds the reoinstalls and wind and solar will run for 25 years not 20...Dip Rod .....you say nuclear has $1,2billion of jusice per year and a 28 yer pay back..but you foreget the $600 million to poerate teh nuclear power plant so pay back is over 50 years..kind of explains why nuclear investment is so desparate to extend the operating permits on 40 plus year old nukes...quite the risk and no new ones on line since 1978 in the US???....oh and what is the cost of replacing a few cities or towns in a 100 mile radius when a hem...and good luck controlling the costs of the nimby meetings !!!.oh and what exactly is the cost of storing the fuel for 50,000 years after we dig it up until we find adequate containment material?? perhaps those costs price it right "off the grid"....it should be obvious a full mix of clean tech working ewith "existing" hydro dams and using hydrogen storage with fuel cells is the only affordable solution...the grid will be one of the most efficinet possible. and not polluting our air wate and soil..but nobody has to take my word DR Ass...Why don't we get some researchers form PENWELL to weigh in on tthe numbers, perhaps you will bleiev them ..or call some very promising indeed...just gie up the lies and afmit what most of the intelligent people knwo in teh enegy sector ....clean tech is the way to go! ..
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 18, 2012
@ penwell I highlighted a word to delete to get my 2000 character limit comment and then hit the delete button and fagain...for about the tenth time of this shit the whole comment is gone....again that should not happen but it continues....it is bad enough you let the commmetn of DR ASS stand on your publication...afetr all this article is about the media being responsible in covering climate change issues and discussing the solution is fucking well part of that "PenWell but digitalbad"
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 18, 2012
Just saw Nova's #111, where his linguistic prowess is again on display, even if hi facts are the usual drivel.

So, Nova, let's take your: "22billion for a two 1000MW unit for a 2000MW nuclear reactor plant" -- good you can multiply.

Now lets' add your 50% overrun, so we have a $33B plant on about 200 acres (most pristine), putting out $1.2B/year of juice, at >90% capacity. That means payback is in 28 years, even with your guess math and ignoring other revenue from isotopes (the ones you may be happy exist some day).

So, a 28-year payback for a wind 'farm' of thousands of windmills with 20-year lives, individual maintenance costs, including roads, insurance, etc. So, the 2 nukes have paid for themselves 8 years into the 2nd install/rebuild of the thousands of windmills. And, the nukes will last another 28 years, making the $33B all over again, while your thousands of windmills still occupy 100x the nukes' land and are on their 3rd rebuild.

Now that's an EROI hit to raise eyebrows from your investors. They coulda had a nuke or two!

Oops, no de-commissioning funds up front, as nukes have to pay. So, when the windmills are no longer as useful as the thousands of acres they've taken up, who will pay for their take down? Perhaps you see why wind is waning even today, unless subsidized by the rest of us for the few -- including you?

And, if your goofy cost figures are just a wee bit off (now, just sit calmly and visualize that remote possibility), well then, those old nukes come barrelling through for even, especially ratepayers. Math, science & engineering realities are tough, eh Nova?
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 18, 2012
Nova's at it again: '.teh utlities aer already upgrading the grid, but not just do to reneables.' -- maybe slow the typing and speed the thinking, eh? The grid is in sad state and the various references from the IEEE and govt. agencies explain why. They also explain the costs of adding 'fram'-style 'renewables', which is not anywhere near zero. We have a very expensive set of examples here in Calif., (see RETI, RPC...) if Nova wants to study and have facts to put out, rather than misinformation.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 18, 2012
Philip: "The only change comes from the heat from the fossil fuels plus the heat increase due to infrared absorption in CO2 minus the heat absorbed due to conversion of CO2 through photosynthesis (5000 btu per pound of CO2. Do you agree?"

Heat is not absorbed to make plant materials. Only ~7% of the 1kW/sq meter is taken by plants into carbohydrate production. It's photonic energy not heat. Plants reflect most of the remaining light energy, which is why the look green and why they look 'white' in the IR. {photosynthesis is unrelated to thermal solar input, it's quantum mechanical).

Now, the dominant GHG is water vapor. CO2 only accounts for more heating and water vapor into the air => more of the same...

The only regulators of CO2 are the carbonic acid formation in the air, resulting in rainfall that corrodes rocks, etc. forming carbonates; and the larger effect of plankton and other calciferous animals in the seas, which take CO2 out of alkaline seawater to build their calcite structures. When they die & sink, the floors of seas can build up deposits that become limestone. When tectonic subduction pulls those deposits into the crust/mantle, they then have completed the Carbon Cycle, which began up here via volcanic emissions of CO2. I gave you a reference on this. You can check the group at Berkeley headed by Don DiPaolo.

The problem is that the above cycling of Carbon naturally occurs at a rate tens of times slower than our emissions of Carbon. If the oceans acidify 0.1pH more them main uptake system will fail. Even if not, we face thousands of very bad years.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 18, 2012
...@timgabz......you comment "The alternative solutions are not including the upgrade of the grid network." /...teh utlities aer already upgrading the grid, but not just do to reneables....they want and realize a smart grid will create a leaner grid and more efficient demand side management...(less rolling brown outs or blackouts)....this cost is not related to alternatives.....we need clean technology and we need it to stop teh pollution created by current enrgy generation...the truth is a full mix of clean tech can replace all fossil fuel and nuclear for less cost then nuclear...the result will be more reliable and less risk of ongoin disaters...that should be enough to make change....we shuold be willing to pay more tahn coal or fossil fuel just to have clean air to breathe...and keep in mind once built clean tech offers a mitigation to higher enrgy costs form rising fossil fuel prices.......once we go electric and fuel cell transprot moer pollution will be stopped...we owe this to ourselves , our children , and all forms of life on earth...we do not need any clouds of radioactive and cesium iodine fallout around the world and we should not risk desolating multiple 100mile radiuses of land fomr futuer accidents...lets look at teh cost of an accidneent at a nuclear plant in New York city....will we shut dwon the whiole city and make it a waste zone..yes ..as nobody in theri right mind would live ther Right?......signed "FUCK PenWell diaolgue boxes are poorly engineered"
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 18, 2012
tried to comment @ Timgabz but this digital relation is substandard..lost my comment again.....""""Attention PenWell"""...Can you please hire a grade 6 "intelligent" student to design a dialogue box and comment platform tha is user friendly... poor shotty design is rampant in our world...the software designers rush to market to enable wonderful things ...but they function very poorly..how can we trust nuclear technology , biotechnology, orscience in gernal, when we can't design decent digital interface for the user....during this discours ...either hitting the wrong button or what ever i have lost all the comment on several occasions...that should not happen.....and if you allow 2000 characters th dialogue box should saty with my typing...the whole point of keyboarding is to watch teh words not my keyboard...frustratingly shotty computer designers...thank fuck they are not wokeing in nuclear...wait yes lots of digital interfacing and computer controls with a nuclear plant...SCARY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 18, 2012
Too much of these changes are being driven by big govt on agendas. They borrow technology from other innovations and private companies sex it up, like the Prius. Take a look at what individuals are doing out of their own interest and there is a whole scope of chance. Many of the big boys are hustling concepts from small enterprises and upscaling rather than making a solution that better fits a bigger market.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 18, 2012
I am loving this discourse. Define too expensive. From build and implement to returns. In the power industry I would guess that All IRRs are poor, have been for years. The income has been poor and replacement deferrred for along time. The alternative solutions are not including the upgrade of the grid network.

Alternative is viable in context of the cost of grid failing, suppling direct to an individual project.

For Alternative to work there has to be a segregation of areas and cross supply
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 18, 2012
@DrAss.(alias "dip rod" AlexC...pun intended)..just returning your game sir..... and DrAss... you are spending too much time on the internet reading the spin of the nuclear industry which is toast, "deadground" to a halt......your links on nuclear safety , now that, sir is laughable (Fuk us hi ma)...??? again you deny being able to understand my lst several post repeatedly explaining the same thing - a full mix of non-polluting cleantechnology can replace all fossil fuel and nuclear...for much less than the cost to replace fossil fuel with nuclear...---anyone who reads these PenWell publications could easily research completed cleantech projects and see the costs I listed are in line with built costs ....and they will see the latest proposed Florida Nuclear plant with a projected $22billion for a two 1000MWunit for a 2000MW nuclear reactor plant....and the industry touts safety so every nuclear plant ever built has went at least 50% cost over run...so most can do the math....... no need to say you do not care what I think...it is obvious already to me...., DrAss...if anyone else is reading this they can better decide for themselves which solution they trust...we all know with the added cost of post-fuk us hi ma nulcear plants it is now too costly...General Elextric admitted it...Seimen Power did first ...you jsut do not wnat to admit my numbers are correct and more importantly the fact that the world does not need nulcear power, we need to replace th aixisting plants with clean tech...all for less money short term and longterm.....addios.. Dr ass I won't bother repeating my self. again,again,again...you have wasted enough of my time with you, sir ...di you want to tell us who is paying you to advocate for nuclear ...cause they ain't getting much for their money!
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 17, 2012
Gerry, see the 3 links in 109, for your interest.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 17, 2012
Nova says: "@Dr Ass" -- well, well, we've finally seen him break.

"3000 MW of wind costs less then 1000Mw " nuclear is so desperately false, it moves us to laughter!

You forgot the storage needed to make up for the >60% variability, Nova. You conveniently forgot the ~10% loss in conversion/transmission, plus the cost of new transmission capacity, plus the land confiscation, species impacts, fossil fuel deficit...

But keep on trying, Nova. Maybe more playground epithets are all you need?

Since I don't care what you think, just for others, here are the facts about nuclear's superior safety...
http://tinyurl.com/3nwjboz
www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

But what do real engineers & scientists know, compared to you, eh Nova?

And that's not even the Gen-IV systems in development around the world now.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 17, 2012
...@Dr Ass...your comment #105 copied here - "determine just how many plants in the US have how many reactors, churning out power with >3x the uptime of any wind 'farm' of matching average capacity." - end your quote.....you are a real imposter Dr Ass.....three times I explained and you let on you do not get it..of course the nuclear or any fossil fuel plant will produce it's name plate when fulltilt....but 3000 MW of wind costs less then 1000Mw of nuclear..so much less you can add 1250 MW of solar,,hydrogen production and fuel cells..it should be a no brainer.. this is a complete solution and one that does not pollute... .we get a reliable match to nuclear output and infact exceed it....adn plenty of hydrogen production for transportation......Who exactly are you working for asshole...which astroturf organization pays you to spread your misinformation and attempt to confound those of us with the intellect to know better.....other astroturf spreaders of bullshit try to say fossile fuels are ok I tell tehm to sit in a garage with the car going and see if pollution is real...with you DR Ass since you advocate for nuclear or at least choose to for this time wasting game of yours ...I will suggest you take the time to camp out at FUK - US - HI - MA in japan and take some other nuclear guys with you and spend as much time as you need to caluclate the simple math and clean tech power plant model I so freely give to you....enjoy your trip and stay...tell me who you work for and i will call you ...teh human beings who make this porrly functioning computer softwar and internt dialogue boxes I find too frsutrating becuase i wonder how many geeks operate nuc plants that are just as stupid as teh computer geeks..sorry my standars say if you sell it to us , it should at least function..otherwise it is shotty workmanship....and that DR ASS is why nuclear is not safe..shotty workmanship cannot be relied on with nuclear..
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 17, 2012
Nova, good to see you concerned in #102, like: "yet we kill the bees with industrialized toxins, rampant use of pesticides"

So why is it ok to kill birds & bats with windmills that are both wasteful & unnecessary?

And why do you look down upon people who, decades ago, indeed determined what our environmental problems would ba and offered solutions? You don't even grasp that many of these nuclear scientists were not only Nobel winners, but anti-nuclear war.

Your bias against nuclear power simply shows you fail to study what might threaten your bias. So no opinion of yours can be trusted.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 17, 2012
Nova, keep on trying, but you're clearly no engineer or scientist and have no understanding of nuclear power. And, when you say wind: 'at times just the 2750MW of nameplate wind can at times exceed 1000MW' At what 'times' are those, when your family member is in surgery and the wind just happens to blow so the hospital can operate? Yes, nuclear plants are usually 2 or more reactors. Can you think why? A plant with 2 reactors, even of the present, 1946 patent design, doesn't cost twice as much as a 1-reacror plant. I know this is hard for you, because it shows the lie of your numbers, but you can go to nrc.gov and determine just how many plants in the US have how many reactors, churning out power with >3x the uptime of any wind 'farm' of matching average capacity. And, the wind farm isn't even 'cleantech', because its fabrication, construction and operation emitted about twice the CO2 any nuke's construction did. It's almost humorous how desperately you try to fudge the numbers to fight reality.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 17, 2012
The whole thing comes down to economics. The man on the street works on short term, property developers on medium term Govts should be for the long term.

Solar and wind farms have a new set of problems and in typical manner Politicians are banning or taxing traditional methods yet there is not a complete solution.The manner in which various Govts have rammed things down throats has created a considerable resistance. The cost of the alternative has been foisted on the consumer and taxpayer. Biofuels are not really a logical progression.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 16, 2012
...@DrAlexC....per comment 89.....again you twist ....for one thing not all nuclear plants have two reactors , in new brunsick Canada there is one rated at 650MW nameplate output capacity that has one reactor......and lets not confuse with "funny information" a nuclear plant merely has a turbine that makes power just as a wind propellor or blade turns the turbine to make electricity ....I hold to my numers DrAlexC...and with confidence ...at times just the 2750MW of nameplate wind can at times exceed 1000MW of nuclear output to the grid but yes the wind will not always be a sufficient speed to peak...so solar and fuelcells are added for a combination that will provide a minimum output of 1000MW of nuclear....And DrAlexC....my figures show aa comparison ......a comon denominator as you will, for every 1000MW of nuclear powered (most are steam driven) turbines output, the combined 4000MW of clean tech can maintaine and generate reliable supply to the gird that will power as many buildings as every 1000MW worth of nuclear output...understand yet? ....cite me any power industry professional who can prove this wrong!.....and the fossile fuel industry invests in clean tech because tehy know where the future is headed in energy...I think they woudl invest quicker but many sharholders have been misinformed and would remove the DEO who leads teh clean tech "charge" ...but as Louise said...the voice of the people need heard...we want clean air , water and soil...and it makes no sense to not build a better future and drive innovation that does not pollute...nuclear realities are ultimate destruction at least in the odd 100 mile radius...that is a lot of desolation.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 16, 2012
..@ Dr AlexC....your commnet 85..."the brilliant minds"...I heard a
nuclear sector speaker say many of the most brilliant minds work in
the nuclear industry....I say what a waste...while the cold war waged
on the nuclear minds fooled themselves into thinking they were solving
the world energy issues....too bad some of those brilliant minds were
not focusing on the issues of pollution in the world or building
sewage treatment plants or something for our future....I copninue to
disagree with you DrAlexC....I think a world powered by nuclear plants
is foolhardy, if not outright insanity...the risk is just too great of
ongoing nuclear accidents at the plants or with radioactive waste
storage for thousands of years....but back then solar and wind
advocates were not as glamorous.

.....As for the uber enviro comment....I have studied quite sincerely
for the past 30 odd (very odd) years. paying heed to global socio-economic and
environmental issues, and have a very diverse subject matter which I contemplate
and research and dsicuss with experts in various sectors ......and 14 years prior that, I heard a
young artist singing, "... give me the spots on the apples save the birds and the
bees..." As a child, I also feared they would take "...all the trees and put them
in a museum and charge the people a dollar and a half just to see
them..." .....and like Joni said in an interview this decade, she is,
"...frustrated and saddened by the stupidity of our species in the way
we manage this planet..."....so CrAlexC with all due respect...I do not need
to study what happened...I paid attention and sought answers to
my questions every step of the way...it still astounds me how many
clues appear around strange corners when one is seeking true
understanding of nature.

...but yet we kill the bees with industrialized toxins, rampant use of
pesticides, and now in another "attempt to save the world from
starvation, some self indulged b
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 16, 2012
Dr A The whole question is "How much heat is actually picked up by GHGs"? Daily solar power input has nothing to do with the discussion. We are dealing with the CHANGE in heat inputs. The only change comes from the heat from the fossil fuels plus the heat increase due to infrared absorption in CO2 minus the heat absorbed due to conversion of CO2 through photosynthesis (5000 btu per pound of CO2. Do you agree?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
Good, Phillip. The point is that our fossile fuel derives from plant photosynthesis which is about 8% efficient in capturing our 1kW/sq metwer solar input. The plant carbohydrates, etc., thus represent a small fraction of incoming solar energy over any time period.

Burning the resulting plant hydrocarbons thus releases very little heat in relation to the energy incoming each second. GHGs thus have a far greater ability to take a significant fraction of the 1kW/sqm and couple it to atmospheric heating every second of daylight, which is ~86,000,000 terawatts.

In addition, we've only burned a small fraction of the fossil hydrocarbons generated over millions of years, and only a fraction of all past plant life was ever sequestered as hydrocarbons.

So, while burning warms us and the air, it's no where near competitive with GHGs and daily solar power input.
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 16, 2012
Alex I am trying to locate the July 2011 issue of Scientific American so as to respond. My issues are long gone and our library does not keep them that long. I will try online. I detect a softening of your rhetoric, if not of your opinion, and since this dialogue is helpful to me, I would like to pursue whatever leads it takes to come to a resolution of our points of view, or a clearer delineation of the sticking points. I checked it out online. It just repeated the same old warnings based on the data from the Paleo period on which I have commented previously. The NOAA has been unscientific in declaring these data show CO2 to be the cause of temperature rise. Check it out for yourself on http:www.ndc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/temperature-change.html All the models are based on this assumption. If you simply discount all the predictions based on those models, what can you find wrong about my arguments? Keep in mind none of the scientists who said CO2 absorbs heat even bothered to consider how much heat was removed by CO2 through photosynthesis.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
Philip, you just don't understand the greenhouse effect and so there's no way to discuss this with you until you make an effort to do so.

Maybe if you actually read the Sci. American mentioned earlier, you'd see that heat from burning has nothing to do with global warming.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
JP, and anyone else, if you want to talk about background & experience, etc. feel free to call! I like real names, etc.
650-400-3071
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 16, 2012
Dr. A It doesn't matter what the age is of the carbon. No one is denying that we are adding lots of CO2 to the environment. What does matter is that the important contribution from burning fossil fuels is HEAT, not CO2.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
H2 -- "You act as if YOUR 'time' is the only valuable 'time' here. "

Now, did I say that, Nova? Did I expend as many words and server power as you?

You seem to just not like having your misinformation exposed. Sorry.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 16, 2012
My high point at age 7 was getting my brothers boat to detonate half way across the pool. I believe I have grown up in many ways since.

We didn't have access to much in the way of equipment as my country was under embargo. One had to improvise converting parts of some things to make do in other applications. Much of my interest derives from that.

Fuel cells have a high efficiency. However as pointed out earlier limits through their source of hydrogen or hydrogen based fuels. With cracking units they can use coal. But of more pertinant use would be the use of biogasses.
JP   -Jon Pierce
JP -Jon Pierce
October 16, 2012
Hi DrA, thanks for more time! and all above!
how many years teaching/studying/sharing, generally?
~
my electro-mechanical interests at age 4-
had tin pans flying like hover crafts by age 9 off slot car motor-prop; -battery on my hip to small wires. Drew and researched pictures of motion (swinging objects) in the third grade...

Since HS to 1980-on
~seem to interpolate application data accurately enough that I redesigned and implemented air solar to do many direct things within the HVAC foundation (& air-rotation/destratification) for my GT-career work.
But I always thought of the photon striking a material to transfer heat as something to be SEEN. So in load studies, I still try to 'SEE' the heat energy... which has kept me from missing 'the work' resulting in various temperatures recorded in association with a media/material (thought) recognizable to account for in [TEMP x MEDIA/MASS movement by a time factor] ...

I do not see enough heat impact from all nuclear /nor , as enough, impacting vs. sun's heat/flares/magnetic variations , to much matter. (What of that?)

Astronomy was bits and pieces from GrandDad, and Chemistry and mechanics from Dad, as well, who invented his own modeling clay, and as an artist, .made sculptures- that one shined as there was bees-wax in the clay...

What may have Mt St Helen comparatively affected the ozone vs 100 years of American refrigeration slopiness? What's probable?

N.-
in the edit window the jumping is mostly reduced.
If I look at what may be a "design" it may be to keep writing shorter than ours... Precis-times point and click...
JP   -Jon Pierce
JP -Jon Pierce
October 16, 2012
.Interesting again Nova to more of the detail of DrA and Phil...
T's Louise!
Of the first of Aaron:
Still market capitalistically as can be born out:
Many hear the 'rain falls on the just and the unjust'
1)note:
There is judgement of what is, or is un-... [beyond 'rain']
2) Is that judgementalism?
?- about 'just' (nuetral as a word of a language: 'just' - can be of one who unbiasedly (hah!) judges) of
a)
an imagined morality in judgementalism, just pushed by a majority or louder cry, still forced on another, like what's forced on human women without a womb of a choice or equal rights [inside]?
or
b) a possible 'Given' judgementalism, morality , by a Giver, greater than the imaginations of all mankind this global single race yet ever has experienced?

if
a), and all is relative to the imaginations of human (alone) reasoning, then who can say how HARSH those rains are that fall, or how REPLENISHING and NOURISHING they are, over all this spec in the universal accerleration?

Anyone?
I did watch ~ ?6 or 7 years ago, on Discovery or Nova the NASA engineering declairing "too much conficting Data so we are sending two more >simultaneous? data loggers (satellites) in different pick-up radiation frequencies, to clarify, IF POSSIBLE." (in their reluctance to project a 'good' model of global temperatures and more.

I am sure a few will know where that logging is at today, but what a scratch of a sliver of acceptable "sureness" compared to what we may find in say 2030...

And I ask if it is true Mt St Helen (hvac-popularizes)
did more damage to ozone layers than 100 years of American Refrigeration "sloppiness" ?



As GrandFather Ernst of who's who in America (Engr) 1964, w/over 100 patents said: "Look for the design in everything" and wrote three booklets on "Lessons from Life" in-breathed some sense in ASME about metalurgy and the removal of metal materials in cutting, etc, ~50's- 60's, lived to write astronomy articles in the Clearwater Sun
Louise Stonington
Louise Stonington
October 16, 2012
Power, the battle is over power. The 85% monopoly that fossil fuel has over the US energy market (and 95% over transportation) is enormous power, that we contribute to every time we buy anything. And those with a stake in the fossil fuel power structure are never going to give up power to the clean energy competition willingly.
The pressure of public opinion needs to come to bear on those who are misinforming and omitting vital coverage.
I read and listen to news, with my computer ready, and send e-mails to stations and comments to news sources correcting misinformation and omissions. See examples and resources at http://greenismoney.wordpress.com
Citizens Climate Lobby is also an excellent resource.
Sandy Caruso
Sandy Caruso
October 16, 2012
Dr Alex: "....my respect for anyone is shown by my willingness to spend time responding to them, whether they're right or wrong in what they say in front of everyone else here. So, I'm giving my time free to simply prevent misinformation being promulgated unchallenged...." Really???....giving your time FREE? Aren't you just a little FULL of yourself? You act as if YOUR 'time' is the only valuable 'time' here. It doesn't sound like you're responding out of respect. Your comments indicate more of a condescending attitude. Better be careful you don't fall off your perch.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
Nova: ".4000MW PEAK POWER OF CLEAN TECH and a minimum 1000MW output..IS MY COMMENT YOU COPIED IN ABOVE POST AND THE COST IS $14 bILLION"

That's not a nuclear-plant equivalent, which you should know.

Any nuclear plant contains two reactors, each capable of 1.0-1.6GWe output, 24/7 for 40-60 years.

Your "cleantech" equivalent as you say yields at best 1GWe, with extra storage and conversion and transmission and loss, just to maybe equal half the nuclear plant.

You can fudge all you like, but the square miles of land & species consumed by your "cleantech" and its transmission, and its power losses, are costs you fear accounting for.

Again, the power sold from the 24/7, long-lived nuke more than makes up for any costs. You have no way of making your wind/solar 'farms' compete with that.

So, what you advocate is blind support of the combustion industry, who indeed is investing in "cleantech:", to get benefit from our various subsidies, while knowing that "cleantech" can never put them out of business, as nukes always have been able to do.

We're all waiting for your honest figuring. When will we see it?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
H2Solar -- my respect for anyone is shown by my willingness to spend time responding to them, whether they're right or wrong in what they say in front of everyone else here.

So, I'm giving my time free to simply prevent misinformation being promulgated unchallenged.

If you're so concerned with shows of respect, why didn't you just ask if I was a Dr., instead of making a snarky remark yourself?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 16, 2012
Nova, your lack of electrochemistry is showing (along with your need for caps): "THEY TAKE AN ELECTRICAL CURRENT FROM AN ELCTRON OF HYDROGEN ATOMS WITHIN THE FUELCELL PROCESSING DESIGN"

What's the chemical output of a hydrogen fuel cell, wh Nova?

Yes, water. H2O results from the oxidation (burning) of H2. The electron goes somewhere outside the cell and comes back -- remember high school chemistry?

Now, a pund of H2 burned with O2 releases about 15kWHrs. However, to make that H2, by various means, requires some kWHrs, and to compress it to useful density requires a few more, so by the time the H2 is ready for a cell or engine to combust it again, it's only worth about 8kWHrs/lb. That's only a bit more than a pound of diesel or gasoline.

Then, burning it in an engine or fuel cell, at best yields 30-40% of the theoretical 15kWHr/lb.

Given all the energy wasted in creation & handling of H2, it's no real advantage to bother with it. This is one reason our Calif. "Hydrogen Highway" never got off the ground. It's a wasteful idea.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 15, 2012
Yes, Philip, those ~100k-year cycles are the Milankovitch Cycle, which relates directly to earths' orbit eccentricity and precession. The key seems to be Arctic season lengthening or shortening, because of the effects of both open sea exposure and permafrost exposure.

Our CO2, easily identified via isotopic content, has been far greater than the natural Carbon Cycle can handle, thus both excess warming & ocean acidification not seen for ~300,000,000 years.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 15, 2012
Nova -- guess what? The "brilliant minds of the world" solved our energy problems and climate problems decades ago. Politicians we elected, and naive, self-appointed "enviros" deflected our course to the sad destination we now share with all peoples of the world.

The intent in the '60s & '70s was to eliminate combustion power by 2000, plant a trillion tress a year and so on. Didn't happen. You could study why, instead of playing uber enviro.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 15, 2012
JP -- "Could DrA or NSD or others comment on freeze-up with lack of solar activity in the ? 1200-1300 times"

There were two events: The Maunder Minimum (Little Ice Age) and the Medieval Warming. Each of these matched closely solar activity and volvanism -- one heats, the other cools.

The solar sunspot cycle is indeed one with about an 11-year repeat, but it's modulated by an about 90-year cycle on top of it. This is why the current maximum is not as strong as tyopical maxima.

If you want to understand the disaster that could occur, look up The 1859 Carrington Event...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

We only had telegraph then, which caught fire, shocking operators. Today -- $billions of damage & decades to fix.

Kiss your GPS & iGadgets goodbye.
;]
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 15, 2012
@jp-jon-pierce....glad to hear you work with geothermal.....since we talk on climate change...we really need to do something concrete thaqt noone can say will not at least help the earth.....STOP POLLUTION.. we have clean tech solutions...we need to stop the debate and start building...obviousl we have never worried about doing things perfect take teh development of computers for example.....we need to do this so our air water and soil does not continue to be contaminated....we are at the point that the earth cannot maintain a balance..yet our great science minds work on nuclear, starwaars communications, robotic drones for warfare, transgenetic biotechnology, building hydrodams which is destrcutive, space travel.....and the list goes on...we need clean air, water, and soil....this is the respect we must show the earth so she can replenish herself and manitain a balcne......why do scientist dream of Godlike endeavors yet fail to see all the pollution theri technology has created....they will have a rude awakening when thye face the Creator and they realize they have failed the simple test of " learn to subdue the earth and replenish teh earth".(genesis1:28)...the tribal people pass the knowledge of the importance of respecting the earth and they trat medicines form teh jungles they live in...yet our scientist steal it , chemically duplicate it adn tehn mankind destroy nature....why are the brilliant minds of teh world not setting us on the right path...are thye blinded AND WHY TEH HELL DO I HAVE TO TYPE IN THIS LITTLE BOX AND NOT HAVE TEH COMPUTER KEEP THE LINE i TYPE IN VISSION..IF IT ALLOWS THIS MANY CHARACTERS , THE IDIOT COMPUTER GEEKS SHOULD MAKE THINGS WORK FOR THE USER....WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF MEDIOCRE MINDS WHO THINK THEY ARE BRILLIANT...HENCE TEH NUCLEAR POWER INDUSTRY EXISTS...insanity and eveil minds are rampant...if mankind is so smart why do we polltue teh water soil and aire as if the earth can just deal with it ...WHY are we so blind????????????
JP   -Jon Pierce
JP -Jon Pierce
October 15, 2012
Aaron ! T's for opening all !

I did watch ~ ?6 or 7 years ago, on Discovery or Nova the NASA engineering declairing "too much conficting Data so we are sending two more >simultaneous? data loggers (satellites) in different pick-up radiation frequencies, to clarify, IF POSSIBLE." (in their reluctance to project a 'good' model of global temperatures and more.

I am sure a few will know where that logging is at today, but what a scratch of a sliver of acceptable "sureness" compared to what we may find in say 2030...

And I ask if it is true Mt St Helen (hvac-popularizes)
did more damage to ozne layers than 100 years of American Refrigeration "sloppiness" ?




Media and Data?:
By the same who just stated "he B.O. was not adjusted to the altitude in Denver". Al Gore.
I did not see any difference than the man in 2007 without scripting, having to think freely, as good as his legal performances , historically.

Could DrA or NSD or others comment on freeze-up with lack of solar activity in the ? 1200-1300 times

relative to 1989 "highest in 100 years" activity-spots, or whatever, we were then told on the news in Akron, Ohio... and occurs every 11 years, is what I thought I was told... and why people will "predict doom" in the next 2022-2023 year of more solar flare-ups. ( if I heard it correctly)

ECL: Earth-Coupled-Note:
Since I have read wells in Cincinnati-Cleveland-Youngstown and now WVA, concurrent with the OH Nat Resources ODNR well temp - ground temp lines not changing by geogrphaics, NOT A SINGLE WELL WATER OVER 18-20 ft deep has varied from 1980-1984 recordings, not a half of 1/10th - degree f.

I only have a couple years of engineering, A's in calc and chem, - of 2 years after graduation from hs..., and many thousands of lab hours in to career research- hands on. 1- co-patent holding, unlike my GrandFather's over 100 in metalurgical research, and many inventions my Artist, Miami U BS, Father had.
JP   -Jon Pierce
JP -Jon Pierce
October 15, 2012
T's 4 all ! got me digging for qualifying recent-above talk...
but that's what I do since 1980 with shallow under 500ft GeoThermal GTX Globalhermxchange(tm) GEOPros.org (Tech: GEO.Pros is the name, 4Synergy series(tm).

I asked a wind-conference speaker to compare:

What if I needed 175 kwh peak, and about 80 kwh averaging for use throughout a 6600 deg-day winter (seen a lot -15f days) and -22 peak in 1994, and yet to date not as hot a year as 1934 in NE Ohio, - (( I know - not a sliver of data))
What if I needed 175 kwh peak, ~ 20 days and about 80-to-70 KWH kwh averaging in to ~ 190-200 days,
however most RELIABLY and 'consumers-best-buy' design-built [[2008-2009 tech's/Egr's]]
FROM WIND GENERATION Clev/lake Erie, nw very reasonable avg years, respectively) ?

@ ? $$$ IN A FIRST 10 YEARS?
HOW MUCH IN DOLLARS IN A PROJECTED 30 years...?

And I said do not challenge me about a 35 year longevity, as it must have: as a criteria::: ( I have a reason or two from working with direct Fluid-Loop-GTX Going only 500ft deep with hydraulic systems to usually horizontally at 8ft deep in collecting Earth's solar energy and dumping back to 52 (to 57f in moist clay beds...).

The answers were simply 1.1/2 to 2.1/2 x's more cost for KWH eqivalent returns to using the Earth Collector ECL= Earth Collector Loop (fluids, to a high 40% p-glyc, as to Earth-Tube (air))
as a 'solar collector' in winter and a heat-sink, in the summer for pre-cooling -- JUST A FLUID RECIRCULATION === not any heat-pump in the system, - made it look even better:

SCHOOLS in NJ and hybrids elsewhere are using
DIRECT SHALLOW GEO-Exchange WITHOUT HEAT PUMPS:
for
Pre-Heating, staying above freezing, and pre-cooling for SPACE CONDITIONING (air-etc) , along with a particular Dairy-Queen that went back to water-cooled ice machines, etc, and 100% heat-reclaim adding heat pumps/ Hot Water-recovery.

GTX+ECL+10hp pump+coil+labor:
Peaks 600,000 BTUh @ $100,000. [now e@~11cents:total bill kwh .
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 14, 2012
Dr.A Re comment 75. The argument is not whether GHG affects climate. the debate is how much. Is the increase in heat from GHG greater than the cooling effect since conversion of CO2 by photosynthesis removes 5000 btus per pound of CO2. Tyndall and Arrhenius did not evaluate this and would not be in a position to comment. In the Paleo period temperature reached a peak after 10,000 years into the cycle and would be expected to reach its minimum 10,000 years later. But no, the earth continues to cool due to photosynthesis bringing on another period of glacial buildup. Another cycle starts after 80 to 120 thousand years. Check out http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/temperature-change.html. The whole purpose is to determine which are the facts. National Geographic's depiction of smokestacks spewing out black smoke to demonstrate the bad impact of CO2 is sensational journalism and not science.The fact that ice cores show the levels of CO2 does not in any way indicate that CO2 was the cause of rising temperature. Why don't you admit that my comments may have merit?
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 14, 2012
....@DrAlexC.....you show your level of knowledge here is this comment from your last post...you say, ""....And, your Hydrogen myth ignores the inefficiency inherent both in fuel cells and Hydrogen production/compression/storage/ and combustion -- you waste more power trying to make & burn Hydrogen from wind & slar than you gain. Remember thermodynamics. Nove?"".................DrAlexC...the whole glory of fuelcells ...is they DO NOT BURN HYDROGEN....IE: NO COMBUSTION - NO POLLUTION...THEY TAKE AN ELECTRICAL CURRENT FROM AN ELCTRON OF HYDROGEN ATOMS WITHIN THE FUELCELL PROCESSING DESIGN...!!!!!
Sandy Caruso
Sandy Caruso
October 14, 2012
Dr AlexC...please be respectful in your responses especially to Nova Scotia Doug. Just because you have a DR in front of your name; IF in fact you really hold a doctorates degree doesn't mean you are all knowing and all wise.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 14, 2012
...@DrAexC....(NEED TO USE CAPTIAL AGAIN CAUSE YOU SEEM TO NOT READ ACCURATELY )....I respectfully ask you to stop twisting and misquoting my comments sir!....I SAID....4000MW PEAK POWER OF CLEAN TECH and a minimum 1000MW output..IS MY COMMENT YOU COPIED IN ABOVE POST AND THE COST IS $14 bILLION ......AND NOTE: THE POWER TO REFORM HYDROGEN IS "FREE" SINCE THE SWITCH ONLY FLIPS WHEN OUTPUT EXCEEDS THE 1000mw OF GRID DEMAND versus 1000MW of nuclear.....AND TO CORRECT AGAIN...for nuclear...I PRICED $16 BILLION (includes cost overruns of 50% historical per industry)FOR THE ""1000mw" OF NUCLEAR (NOT 2000MW).....OH AND BY THE WAY IT WILL COST ABOUT $400 MILLION "extra" per year of annual operating costs at the muclear power plant ///$400million per year x 25years of lifespan for cleantech = $10 billion invested fund for after gains total $14 billion to build replacement clean tech equipment......SO...NUCLEAR IS FAR TOO COSTLY...TOO MUCH FISK, IS UNRELIABLE CAN BE SHUT DOWN FOR SAFTEY = ZERO OUTPUT , AND WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO STORE IT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS SO COST IS WAY OUT OF THE PROVERBIAL BALL PARK..........NUCLEAR IS NOT COMPETITIVE IS THE CONCLUSION ANY RESPECTABLE SCIENTIST WOULD REACH...jsut ask General Electric, the German government, or even Seimens Corporation.....WHAT SAY YOU DrAlexC?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 14, 2012
Nova, your numbers show nothing useful:

"2500MW wind = $5billion
1250Mw solar = $6billion
250Mw fuel cells = $2billion
Hyrogen production = ZERO COST ..as it will generate revenue from selling hydrogen to the transport and stationary fuelcell markets and supply the fuel for the fuelcells onsite."

Your numbers are peak, not average, 24/7 and not for wind lasting >20 years without huge maintenance. You also fail to include land consumption, 24/7 10% power lost -- a cost -- and you fail to handle systems conversion expenses, especially the new transmission and backup systems needed for any solar/wind 'farms'.

So, even if a nuclear plant producing >2,000MW cost $16B, it's proximity to transmission from displaced combustion plants, it's far longer life expectancy than wind, and its far higher peak output mean that your ideas are uncompetitive. They always will be.

Your list above doesn't ebven match the single nuclear plant's output or revenue. And, your Hydrogen myth ignores the inefficiency inherent both in fuel cells and Hydrogen production/compression/storage/ and combustion -- you waste more power trying to make & burn Hydrogen from wind & slar than you gain. Remember thermodynamics. Nove?

You love to avoid inconvenient truths of science & engineering. So what you advocate is counter to environmental responsibility and creates a brittle, thus unreliable and expensive power system.

.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 14, 2012
Phillip, your odd remark that publishers: "enforce the belief that CO2 is the culprit." illustrates that yyou don't actually value facts & argumrnts as you claim.

There's no need for "belief" about GHG effects on our climate -- it's always been real and easily demonstrated, even since the time of Tyndal & Arrhenius. And, even more clearly from our ability to obtain hundreds of thousands of years of ice cores and tens of millions of years in sediments & fossils.

You simply need to study rather than publicly opine without basis in fact.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 14, 2012
Right Nova, using CAPS makes up for using brains.
;]
You're clearly smarter than all the scientists & engineers around the world who've given us the safest form of mass power generation ever deployed. Keep repeating that to yourself, while many die around the world each week from other sources.

http://tinyurl.com/3nwjboz
www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-deathprint-
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html
a-price-always-paid/
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 14, 2012
Peter, good comments. The natural Carbon Cycle has been swamped by a factor of about 100 for some decades, which means now that even if combustion were completely stopped today, we have thousands of years ahead of us (and our disgusted descendents) of extremely challenging realities.

The reference papers here are some of the most recent that are useful, and the July 29011 Scientific American has a good layman's analysis. http://energyseminar.stanford.edu/node/461
Peter Bradshaw
Peter Bradshaw
October 14, 2012
Evidence from fossil studies, ice cores, etc. show that during the last 70,000,000 years the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has varied from about 130ppm to about 270 ppm, mostly on a cyclic basis due to astronomical factors like the precession of the equinoxes, and the "wobble" of the earth's axis. And the likely average temperature has cycled pretty much in synch with that. Until the last 100 years, or so, when the CO2 level has rocketed up to well over 350 ppm at a rate not seen in the prior data, and is still climbing. The change is real.

AS for the anonymous of comment 11, "Since the earth was created 9,863 years ago, "... The alternative way of looking at this is that when the earth was created (Bishop Usher's date was just under 6015 years ago, unless you allow for the Isaiah factor of 1000 years for each of the 6 days, which would add 6000, so 12015 years, not sure where 9,863 comes from) whoever created it put fossil and ice layer evidence down to make us think the numbers in the first paragraph are correct, so must have had some beneficent purpose there, just like all those other data suggesting it all is much older, e.g. dinosaur fossils, the isotope ratios in lead ores, etc. So surely we should act as though it is true. And be concerned.

Incidentally, the CO2 content reductions involve some much slower processes (such as the migration of the CO2 down to deep-sea plankton), which explains some of the time scale differences seen in the detailed data between rising and falling effects.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 14, 2012
There are aspects that are not being included in these calcs. There are downsides to all sources of energy and they have varying degrees of consequences. I note these as a developer and in a pragmatic angle. The most important is design of building to maximise effectiveness. When people buy a new house they want power and water 24/7 and this is a value, particularly in a poor grid area.
Solar goes off at night. This means on average off half the year. But more telling is it is off more in winter than in summer. The further from the poles the less the energy it harvests.
Wind, functions on a cuboidal energy formula. This means slow speeds = shut down and high speeds = turbine failure. It can only crop a maximum 59% of available energy in the most efficient machines. Thus here are huge swathes of the world that would be without power. Wind power energy thrives only on bailout monies.
Solar and wind will only work on grid or over design to compensate for shortages in other areas. Weather is fickle.
Wind needs to be able to broaden that band without killing the bird life.
My cynicism is aimed at the huge effort towards alternative generation rather than cutting consumption.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 13, 2012
@DrAlexC....you sir like the rest of the nuclear advocates are PART OF the problem with the human race....you get all caught up in technology that is "advanced" meaning you feel superior and you like that!....the problem is you become blinded to the fact that nuclear is just too much risk for this small planet....fall out in California from Japan???....now what happens if a wacko goes postal and takes out several nuke power plants in the US....ther goes your "cost of MWhr per acre BS.....PLUS NUCLEAR IS JUST TOO UNRELIABLE....A FAULTY VALVE OR A CRACK IN THE VESSLE ETC AND WAM YOU GET ZERO ELECTRICITY UNTIL INSPECTION ALLOWS START UP.....WITH A FEW THOUSAND WIND AND SOLAR UNITS ...YOU WON'T HAVE THEM ALL NOT WORKING ....RIGHT!....so we CONCLUDE...NUCLEAR IS TOO EXPENSIVE, TOO RISKY, AND MUCH TOO UNRELIABLE ...IT HAS NO CHANCE OF SOLVING ANYTHING...BUT YET YOU STILL ARE IN LOVE WITH YOUR EGO BECAUSE YOU THINK MAN CAN DO WONDERS....i THINK YOU RESNENT WIND TURBINES BECAUSE IT IS PRETTY MUCH BASIC TEHNOLOGY THATA WORKS , IS LOW COST, VERY RELIALBE, AND NO RISK......YOUR MENTALITY IS WHY MANY OF YOU DEBATE ENDLESSLY WITHOUT REALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY.

**** AND my point is this...we need to adapt to technology that is clean, and stop pollution...none of the information and most others can really say what the course of climate change is and how much mankind casued...I accept that, you shhould to....but certainly you can agree, if we look at ther reall issue for change, the dirty technolgy makes pollution, so the air and water and soil are getting more contaminated...SO STOP TEH DEBATE AND ADMIT WE NEED TO ADAPT TO CLEAN TECHNOLOGY....AND cRaLEXc...NUCLEAR WITH THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE AND COUNTLESS RADIACTIVE ACCIDENTS WOULD BE LIKE SUICIDAL...SO IF YOU STILL ADVOCATE NUCLEAR....THEN TAKE YOURSELF OUT AND STOP TRYING TO DESTROY THE eARTH, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO SO....WE HAVE SIMPLE SOLTUIONS TAHT WORK AND WE NEED TO BUILD NOW TO STOP POLLUTION.
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 13, 2012
Dr.A In response to comment 67. First let me say I really do appreciate your comments and willingness to debate on points of disagreement. Without open dialogue we have fewer chances to hear opposing opinions. There is certainly no argument that we humans are the cause of global warming. Scientific American. National Geographic, Popular Science, and others continue to enforce the belief that CO2 is the culprit. I believe that some of those editors know more about journalism than they do about science. Why do they believe that the heat we produce is different than the heat radiated from the greenhouse? Why do you believe that? Can you support your statement that the hear absorbed by GHGs is greater than that from combustion, other than repeating or paraphrasing what a whole host of bandwagon jumpers have stated. There is no argument that solar heat is the main source of heat. Next is the geothermal heat flow of 44 terrawatts. You must admit that the heat emissions have increased 800% during the past century and you cannot blow this off as casually as you have. I would be proud for my descendents to realize that I was one of the few people trying to call to attention the real cause of global warming. Can't you see: 'The Emporor Has No Clothes'? I hope you understand the simile. Oh another thing: I believe that acid rain may be the cause of seawater acidification, releasing CO2 as it erodes the aragonite deposits, but it would be hard to detect an increase in chloride or sulfate ions at that level. Let's keep talking. Regards
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 13, 2012
@DrAlexC....good for the goose and gander....you, say I say...that solar and wind balance each other..and then you say, the cost would double to do so....Perhaps you should reread my post ...very simple concept...I show the TRUE cost of 'built projects"...and in fact while you advocate building 1000MW nuclear for $16billion....if you can read...I show the price of a renewable system that would always be able to provide at least 1000MW of clean power:

2500MW wind = $5billion
1250Mw solar = $6billion
250Mw fuel cells = $2billion
Hyrogen production = ZERO COST ..as it will generate revenue from selling hydrogen to the transport and stationary fuelcell markets and supply the fuel for the fuelcells onsite.

What I assume you did not understand is when the wind and or solar produce over 1000MW (from 2500MW wind and 1250MW capacity nameplates), since the grid only contracts 1000MW then the surplus electicity will power the onsite hydrogen reforming equipment and store the hydrogen in tanks....then should on rare occassion the solar and wind output falls below 1000Mw of output, then the hydrogen stored onsite can fuel the fuelcells (250Mw included in total plant site)and the wind and solar and fuelcells should certainly be able to output the 1000MW deamnd...and this is not my brainchild...it is the model big energy companies have been looking at......Now just like you say a nuc plant can sell isotopes, for teh same price said...the excess power will geneate power to prodcue surplus hydrogen and therefore creat a "new age refinery" supply of hydrogen for transport and stationay fuel cells in homes or buses etc.
And the grid can handle what is coming in renewables via some slight adjustments in technology that are already needed to make our grid more efficient....in fact Enbridge has negotiated with Hydorgenics to use hydrogen prodcution built in strategic locations on the grid to "lean out the grid" and use the "wasted power ", so your grid view is wrong.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 13, 2012
Phillip, you;'re right, "if we stopped" combustion, temps wiould still rise and oceans would continue to acidify. That's because combustion history has already added 100x what the natural Carbon Cycle can handle each year. This has long been known.

You need to study some realities, such as that the previous ups & downs in CO2, CH4, water vapor & temps were 100x slower than what we've achieved in the last decades. And, then, there were no humans burning stuff.

So, the heat produced by combustion is peanuts compared to the heat absorbed by atmospheric GHGs, seas & surfaces from solar IR.

If you're mystified by how microwave ovens work, then your statements would be understandable -- still wrong -- but understandable.

Suggest you get a July 2011 Scientific American for a clear explanation of past warmings & coolings, in relation to what we've done. And you really should study the readings here about the Carbon Cycle, etc...
http://energyseminar.stanford.edu/node/461

You might not want any descendents discovering transcripts of your writings here, while they're trying to survive the consequences of misleading information like yours.
;]
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 13, 2012
Dr. A Regarding your comment 63. Of course the solar energy is much greater than the heat of combustion of all the fossil fuel. That has nothing to do with the fact that a small change in energy can have a substantial impact. In the Paleo period a small change in solar incidence raised the temperature 0.002*F. for a period of 10,000 years. The current rate of rise is .04*F per year a factor of twenty. You seem to think that 16 terawatts of energy is immediately radiated to outer space. Radiation loss is a fourth power function of absolute temperature. Why is not the heat reradiated from the greenhouse just as immediately lost? If temperature rise is completely independent of our energy use, we could stop using energy from now on and the temperature will continue to rise because we have passed some magical level beyond which there can be no return. I hope my daughters and others will retain some scepticism from pronouncements by "scientists" and others who simply repeat what the "experts" have said without doing their own calculations. It is my feeling (unproven for now) that the cooling effect of carbon dioxide through photosynthesis is greater than the heat increase due to absorption of infra red into the greenhouse. If you wish to comment derisively about this it's fair game.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 13, 2012
Nova, on your statement: 'my numbers are based on true cost of production.' They clearly aren't when you suggest wind & solar automatically balance each other. At best that would mean doubling the overall costs just to get the average net power desired. That's absurd and we all know it, whether you do or not. Nuclear plants, however, run at >90% capacity factor for decades. You know that makes their output per acre or per investment $ far superior to any 'renewable'. And, what you may not know, is that every nuke pays for its decommissioning via a charge per kW of capacity. No 'renewables' do, which is why we in Calif. still have junk wind stuff left over from the last wind & solar 'farm' scams in the '80s... http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/ So, again, your accounting is like the double set of books fo0lks in the rackets depend on. ;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 13, 2012
Nova, your odd raile against nukes includes: "the point is so will a supply of clean tech power plants???? do you just forget that or do you think everyone is stupid when you debate...plus we do not need another electical grid "

Are you so uninformed about concepts like "power density" that you don't realize all 'renewables' are low power density and need extensive additions to grids?

Taking a coal plant and converting it to nuclear adds nothing new to the grid. Using advanced Gen-IV reactors can double existing plants of any sort, thus adding to the existing grid, but where it already runs.

Using local solar PV adds modest power, requiring storage, but improves grid robustness & efficiency. Solar/wind 'farms' cannot do this, and so waste !10% of power generated, while consuming vast landscapes and threatening species.

So, once again, I advocate local solar, efficiency/storage/EVs, and advanced nuclear. Those together solve all our power needs without sucking land or species into maws of specious 'renewables'.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
" am aware that many noted scientists have pointed out that CO2/H2O and other triatomic molecules absorb infra red. So what! " -- there you go again, Phillip, advertizing your need for study.

Yes, water vapor is the dominant GHG and becomes more plentiful as sea temps rise and evaporate more.

CO2 is about `6% of the solar absorption, and since we've increased it by a factor 400/280 in just decades, it's added considerable unnatural warming, apart from ocean acidification.

Thus CO2 & water vapor\\or are linked, with water vapor having even more IR absorption bands than the few main ones for CO2.

Your contention displays lack of knowledge of both electromagnetic-molecular interactions and thermodynamics. The calories of heat released by combustion are largely radiated to space as low frequency IR. The incoming solar radiation peaks in the visible range and tails slowly off into the IR region, exciting most of the water resonances and all of the CO2 ones.

You can figure out for yourself, if you wish facts, how much 86,000,000GW of incoming solar energy compares to the burning of a cubic mile of oil each year (that's our equivalent combustion usage).

The argument about heat released in combustion is backwards.

Why do you involve your father & daughter in spreading misinformation?
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 12, 2012
Dr.A It was my daughter that responded in my defense and mentioned your age. I am aware that many noted scientists have pointed out that CO2.H2O and other triatomic molecules absorb infra red. So what! The amount of heat picked up is dependent on the number of molecules that are available. Water vapor at 8000 ppm is much more important than the 400 ppm CO2. I contend that the increase from 300 to 400 ppm CO2 is of far less significance than the 800% increase in the rate of heat emissions during the past century. I hope you will respond to my previous rather lengthy comment.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 12, 2012
@DrAlexC...oh and by the way another error you wrote.saying china is building nuclear which is wrong..the most installations of Clean technology for power generation for the last couple of years has been in china...they do know!...you really have to stop making this stuff up Dr AlexC ...either that or read real industry news not some internet blogs posted by the milk man on why nuclear is safe...it is not safe and it costs way too much, and that is not fair to the working man trying to heat his home! so the working man wants teh cheaper cleantechnology...and as a side benefit he'll have cleaner air to breather while he drinks some beers on his fishing trip and deservedly so!
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 12, 2012
@DrAlexC...you use as rebuttle that the nuclear power plant will produce $million per year in electircal sales....the point is so will a supply of clean tech power plants???? dio you just forget that or do you think everyone is stupid when you debate...plus we do not need another electical grid ...the electrons flow quite freely down the path of least resistence jsut as the nuclear plant sends out electrons, in case you did not know....your grasping at straws and glad to see someone in your family (your dad the accountatn a big company) can add...better still ask him to add my math...plus account for the cost of thousands of years of nuclear waste storage and any accidentss ..as an accountant he should tell you quite simply it is impossible to project such costs for nuclear...NUCLEAR IS A SCAM TO FUND NUCLEAR WARFARE..ALWAYW WAS AND ALWASY WILL BE.....Nuclear id far to costly and the risks are simply insane...funny how people like you do not account for proper costs Dr.AlexC...my numbers are based on current project costs in the field...oh by the way for windfarms they actually test teh wind regime prior to building... SIR!
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 12, 2012
@ Dr alexC...all my post did not make it....my numbers are based on true cost of production....first you cannot estimate the cost of several nuclear accidents (shoulkd we cove the earth for power and a percentage bloww.....and note this...if you see the cleantech model when the wind don't blow as you say.... if you have 3750 of output the wind and solar may fall to 750MW output form 3750 so you power the fuel clels to meeet demand.....when the 3750 of wind and solar exceed 1000Mw the energy is used to create the hydrogen... much of your rebuttle fails miserably Dr Alex..you still need materail to build nuclear,..and wind and solar are more harmonious to the environment then you have been mislead to believe...obvioulsy you work in the nuclear industry or once hoped to....and to point out another error, the Sausdis governemnt is busy building solar and other renewables not nuclear...your advocacy for nuclear ifs futile, the rest of us are not so insane to wnat more nuclear...take the cue form Germany and Seimens, they have woke up to reality....so no need to spout your disinformation to justify the fact you want to see the Earth destroyed...are you a Satatn worshiper or just a nuclear advocate caught up in the disinformation of the cold war....and you say "the visual pollution"???? what kind of drugs are you on DR AlexC....you are in denial of logic...no argument there!
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
Now for Gerry -- read the above, and then consider studying the coal industries fantadies, like CCS. A recent Stanford symposium and published papers revealed that at most 60% of current CO2 emissions could be sequesterd, even if we used all the N. American continent.

And, though we have plenty of O2 in the air now, ocean acidification may change that. Sequestering CO2 sequesters C, but O2 that was not sequestered before. This is an absurd concept.

If you want to study CCS realities, Google "Stanford GCEP carbin negative"
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 12, 2012
@DrALEXC...tis you who have no idea not I ...General Electric just announced last month it is now too expensive to build nuclear...bet they know not you...but here is my research numbers adn a standard future model of teh industry itself...yeah!!..we're going clean tech and the oil conglomerates will provide the bulk of investment via acquisitions...they are the energy giants and will always be the energy giants.

1000MW nuclear = $11billion plus cost overrun (typically 50% historically)= 5Billion = total $14-16billion

2500MW wind = $5billion
1250Mw solar = $6billion
250Mw fuel cells = $2billion
Hyrogen production = ZERO COST ..as it will generate revenue from selling hydrogen to the transport and stationary fuelcell markets and supply the fuel for the fuelcells onsite.

Total cost of clean technology = $13-15 billion
Total cost of nuclear = $14-16billion..plus 5 times the annual staffing cost, plus refueling cost, plus the cost of storaing waste for 50,000 years , plus the cost of accidents, plus the cost of all our children growing up in fear of nuclear disaster.

Conclusion cost of nuclear far exceeds the cost of cleantechnology with no pollution!

I remind you DrAlexC FUK - US - HI - MA
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
Next, Nova... -- EROI for the sources you offer doesn't include all their costs. My father, as chief cost accountant in a large company, warned about such blinkered numbers. Even if a nuke cost $16B to build, it produces about $1.2B/year in sold electricity. Plus, many $100 millions in medical/industrial isotopes. This is why, for example, the poorly-maintained Vermont Yankee plant was bought, fixed up and turned into a cash cow by its new owner. $1.2B/year income, from fuel costing ~$3 million/year, in a plant that operates 24/7 for 40 or more years, means what? You figure it out, Nova. Then figure out how much a 2GWe (6GW peak) wind 'farm' of 20 square miles or more impacts maintenance, environmental damage, perennial power loss, <20-year equipment replacement cycles, noise & visual pollution costs, initial GHG emissions costs of ~700 tons of material processed per peak MW (~2100 tons per avg. MW), plus the cost of new transmission, control systems, grid interfacing & conversion, plus the cost of necessary backup systems when the wind don't blow, plus the ultimate cost of relocation when the wind doesn't blow there anymore due to climate change -- the Chinese already see this. So folks who know about honest costs and needs, like the Chinese, Indians, Saudis... are building nuclear plants as fast as they can. The Saudis; in particular, like the combustion industry, know how foolish we are in sacrificing our environment to continued combustion instead of safe, cheap nuclear power.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
First, Philip -- you can believe your father, a chemical engineer, if you want, but your father certainly understands isotopic analysis and should understand electromagnetic radiation. The 1st of those clearly show vast amounts of the carbon in the air and in the ocean, as CO2 & carbonic acid, is identifiable directly to fossil fuel combustion -- ask your father about carbon dating, for example. The 2nd reality, electromagnetic absorption of molecules, like CO2, water vapor, N2O, etc. produce the dominant thermal forcing of our atmosphere. Your father should know that too, or be able to find the research that proves same -- it's 'only' been known for over 100 years, and your father certainly should know of Nobel chemist Arrhenius. And, last, your naive assumption about my age & experience shows just how flip you are in writing without knowing. ;] .
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 12, 2012
Dr. A, I will address your comment: Ever since Kyoto in 1997 declared that fossil fuels were the major contributor to global warming. They were correct but not for the reason they gave. When fossil fuels are burned they emit heat (the reason we burn them) and some by-product CO2. There are NO correlations of rising CO2/temperatures for which it can be shown that CO2 is a cause rather than an effect from the real cause. During the Paleo period (preceding 400,000 years the cause of temperature rise was increased solar impact due to the shift in earth's orbit (Malenkovitch cycles). "A Paleo Perspective on Global warming" by NOAA Paleoclimatology. The article wrongly assumes that CO2 was the cause of temperature rise and proposes using this relationship to establish climate sensitivity to CO2. Examination of the graph clearly shows that temperature and CO2 rose together but temperature fell much faster than CO2 showing that CO2 was not causing nor supporting temperature. During the more recent times rise in temperature has been accompanied by increased CO2 and heat emissions from our energy use. The heat emissions alone are more than enough to account for the measured rise in temperature. This heat does not magically disappear without causing glacial melting and increased temperature. Incidentally if heat is the real problem nuclear power emits twice as much total heat as its electrical output. I doubt if the Kyoto people even considered the heat emissions before concluding that CO2 (the smaller component of greenhouse gas) was the cause of global warming. They have saddled us with proposals for nuclear power,and ridiculous and counterproductive proposals for removal and sequestration of CO2. You can choose to believe whatever you wish but I find your ascerbic comments to be detrimental to a sincere and open dialogue
ANONYMOUS
October 12, 2012
Dr. Alex C, I take personal offense to your comment: "Phillip's words demonstrate the full, willful ignorance of someone who has no interest in reality or effects of his actions on others, even on his descendents.

Dr. Phillip Haddad is not someone who is willfully ignorant of this issue. Dr. Phillip Haddad happens to be my father, who I am very proud of, respect as a human being, and wish more people were like him. There was no cause for you to make a personal attack on him. He has over 40 years in Research and Development in the Chemical Industry, probably more than your age.

He is merely suggesting that CO2 is not the cause for climate change, but that processes that use heat are more likely. If that is the case, then our country's, and indeed the world's climate policy should stay away from more heat producing processes, like nuclear, because they will have no effect in the long run on reducing temperature rise.
Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
October 12, 2012
AlexC ... wrong. There are current published studies on the LCOE for various technologies. Nuclear is fairly expensive - not as expensive as solar, tied with advanced coal with CCS and more expensive than wind. In recent auctions, new wind bid 8.3 c/kWh while new nuclear bid 10 c/kWh. Of course solar is expensive because half the cost is red tape. But if all you're going to do is wrangle about the direct costs of a thing, that's misguided. Among the things we should care about is the quality of the environment - that's not some far away place where polar bears roam - it's what we knock around in every day. The Romans had a law that you couldn't let your stink blow into your neighbor's yard. Now we have laws that a) say that you can - if you're a big corporation and b) no one can stop you from doing it and c) you can't sue for damage. And, some idiots that will tell you that that's democracy. If you want a lowest impact solution - try conservation. It's actually pretty cheap and relatively easy. Repair your caulking and door seals every few years. Buy LED lamps. Buy the highest available efficiency air conditioner, refrigerator, and freezer (all the data is online). Take your bar frige to the dump. Raise your attic insullation to R45, install white roofing, make a solar heater for your pool, get a solar powered circulating pump, get an on-demand water heater, put awnings over south facing windows, put vestibules on all of your entry ways, use presence sensing light switches. Ultimately, we don't need more generation, we need less. If we simply cut back consumption, supply and demand would make it cheaper (any TOU rate chart should be sufficient evidence).
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
Nove needs caps to support a weak argument? "AND THIS IS FACT - NUCLEAR IS NOW MORE COSTLY THEN RENEWABLES."

Nova, you obviously have no idea about costs of alternatives. The cost of nuclear electricity is the lowest, worldwide. The cost of windmills, in terms of emissions per MWeHr is twicw that of nuclear.

Whether you choose to honestly study alternative systems or not, others do and the results have always been clear. Only hydro & nuclear provide similar, low overall power costs, with hydro having a greater environmental threat. Local solar is also becoming competitive, with little environmental impact.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 12, 2012
"CO2 is not the problem." -- Phillip's words demonstrate the full, willful ignorance of someone who has no interest in reality or effects of his actions on others, even on his descendents.
The Carbon Cycle is what has been swamped during the industrial revolution, now by a factor of ~100x what natural processes can handle.

If anyone, including the curious part of Phillip's mind, wants to look at just that overall issue, check the readings at the end of this page... http://energyseminar.stanford.edu/node/461

Our descendents will indeed have reason to spit on our graves, if they can find them, if we continue our mental laziness about reality.
Tim Gulden
Tim Gulden
October 12, 2012
The way to end this debate is to put your money where your mouth is...install a renewable energy system if you are for renewable energy. I did, and it produces enough to cover 100% of my homes' electric needs for a family of five as well as supply enough energy to drive a car for 10,000 miles a year.
ANONYMOUS
October 12, 2012
To me it is fairly simply why the confusion. The beliefs of the talking heads are stupid and they are compomised by their love of money. They believe that civilization is 10,000 years old and the dinosaurs are an anomaly, that we don't come from a line of apes, there is only one true GOD, THEIRS, and on and on. They also believe that Republicans and Conservatives don't lie. (WOW!) They are wrong on all counts with this just being another BS position which is taken for the sake of THEIR POCKETBOOKS. NOTE: IT IS ALWAYS THE MONEY! Don't believe me then follow the money and see where it leads.
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 12, 2012
CO2 is not the problem. It will be converted through photosynthesis providing cooling by removing 5000 btus of energy for every pound of CO2 converted. We must stop using heat-producing processes for our energy: such as fossil fuels and nuclear power. Ultimately they must be replaced with "renewables" which remove as much energy from the environment as they replace in more useable form such as solar, wind, hydroelectric, biomass to name a few.
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 11, 2012
Hi: First, I did not read every response on this thread, scanned a few. Regarding Global Warming, the presentation to the public that the fossil fuel industry does not believe or get Global Warming is all BS. The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which is carrying the extreme right agenda, wrote an inside bulletin, not only acknowledging Global Warming but how to take advantage of it for resource extraction. Don't you think Shell, BP, Exxon are all salivating over the North polar region becoming accessible for oil and gas drilling year round?? You think they give a rats ass if they screw up the ocean and the entire planet... and as a side note, if R&R get into the WH, you will see this planet trashed at a rate that will make Ebola jealous.

.....Bill
Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
October 11, 2012
@ NSdoug - nice rant. Everything in proportion though. Some coal fired plants have more radioactive waste left behind than some nuclear plants - it's just in big heaps of ash instead of tidy barrels. But then some NG plants have higher toxic emissions than some coal plants (according to DOE stats). It's quite possible for coal plants to be much cleaner - they just don't want to be. Some coal plants have scrubbers they don't use because it would cost a bit more to operate. Hydro causes water quality problems too. Past history shows that many fossil fuel power sources produced toxic waste that 'we' didn't know how to store either. The EPA keeps a list of some but it appears that they only know of a fraction of them - usually what happens is someone is putting up a school or has already put one up and discovers nasty stuff in the basement. There are no magic bullets just better and worse choices.
One thing that should change is the ability to put up an operating entity, run for 50 years and then fold the tent leaving the liability behind.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 11, 2012
...seems like we can all see pollution as something we need to stop...and we understand that fossil fuel emissions are pollution....so if we accept renewable energy like wind, solar, tidal, geothermal,and hydrogen powered fuels-cells are all currently viable technologies and none of them create pollution when they generate power....does it not make absolute sense to support a change to these technologies...and they will advance and become more economical from competition / capitalism.....ON this note...combining the alternate technologies will solve any intermittancy of any one of the sources......AND THIS IS FACT - NUCLEAR IS NOW MORE COSTLY THEN RENEWABLES...AND THAT DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE COST OF LONGTERM STORAGE OF RADIOCATIVE WASTE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS (CAUSE WE STILL DO NOT KNOW HOW TO STORE IT THAT LONG)....SO nUCLEAR IS TOO EXPENSIVE AND FAR TOO POLLUTING TO CONTINUE WITH....THE ANSWSER IS NON-POLLUTING TECHNOLOGIES!
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 11, 2012
"lets change the debate" -- depends on who's talking. When the combustion industry 'debates' they lobby, which is why they have NORM exemptions that allow them to emit 100x any nuke's radioactive emissions. And, they lobby to be allowed to emit Mercury, Arsenic... And they lobby for depletion allowances, tax credits... And they buy representatives in governments. And, they invest in subsidized, inefficient 'renewables', like solar/wind farms...they know none can ever compete, except nuclear.

That's the "debate" that needs changing. It's been going on for over 50 years. The solution was clear decades ago, but was lobbied away.

Indeed, it starts with each of us. As one retiring member of our Congress said, when a reporter complained about our lousy House, "No one in the House is appointed. Every one of us is elected by people in our districts".

We get all the government & democracy money can buy. Unless each of us gets up off the couch and tweets about something more important than the ball game or 'reality' show.
LW Cloutier
LW Cloutier
October 11, 2012
Rob,
I'm not against alternate energy, I believe it is common sense to change to better ways of doing things. I doubt that few of you climate change supporters walk to work or ride a horse. I find it pure hypocrisy for these environmental soap box blabbermouths to spew all their misinformed facts all the while flying in planes or driving cars to protest in various cities around the world. They don't even really believe what they are saying.
Volcanoes, thousands of tons into the air , CO2, H2S, and other delightful gases from the depths of the earth, depending on location and level of activity per eruption. Don't forget the underwater eruptions.

Alternate energy, or renewable? I believe the law of physics says energy cannot be created or destroyed. So we convert wind into electricity, what happens to the wind energy that is taken out, does it affect the climate in the immediate area?, some land owners around them say yes. Well the blades kill birds & bats, but that is socially acceptable right?. Suppose we stop all fossil fuel use on the planet and setup solar to power our iron horses, homes and gadgets by charging batteries, all that energy the the sun heats the earth with that is taken away for electricity, will that create global cooling? I guess you have to audit the heat left over I read an article that engineers know that total solar is possible in North America.

I have solar panels, and wind power, and I'm loving it!
Louis Shaffer
Louis Shaffer
October 11, 2012
Very good point. I agree that renewable energy has many other drivers that are more clear than global warming and climate change.
Nova Scotia Doug
Nova Scotia Doug
October 11, 2012
...the debate on climate change has become a redherring for people to voice opinion...and perhaps the media is as stupid as they make themselves appear.....BOTH SIDES miss the point........most of the gases that are alledged to contribute to climate change or global warming are part of our industrialized technology...do we need technology ..yes we do....do we need to trreat our resources with respect ..yes we do....do we need transportation ..yes we do...doe we need electricity ..yes we do......so what we have hear is a CHOICE TO MAKE....do we want to make a change to clean technology? combustion of fossil fuels creates pollution and we know the toxic air we breathe kills us and our children and all life on earth....so lets change the debate....do we want to stop pollution or just keep speqing toxic gas into the air and toxic effluents into the wate? ...your answer will determine your own levbel of stupidity and this has been my stance for at least teh last five yeryears....pollution does not need to happen..we have clean technology to supply our needs and the shareholders of big oil will still make money , becaseu tehy will invest inot clean technology too......people , politicians and the media need to think... do I think pollution is good?... or should we try to use clean technology that does not pollute the air water and soil we and all life depends on? do we wnat our children to all have cancer or do we wnat a heathier world....if we stop pollution...the earth can maintain a blacne that supports all life...I hardley think anyone can argue this point!?
Aaron Huertas
Aaron Huertas
October 11, 2012
@shafflo -- To be clear, I'm talking about what most non-scientists think about climate change and what drives their thinking, not what scientists *know* about climate change.
CHARLES REESE
CHARLES REESE
October 11, 2012
If renewable energy solutions need to be pitched as a remedy for an apocalyptic climate change, then the technology is doomed. Luckily, there are other near-term benefits for diversifying the energy grid. Wise to avoid controversy when trying to advance a new technology.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 11, 2012
Ok! We got somethin' goin' gere!

H2solar doesn't seem to bother to study how the combustion industry kills folks -- like the 30 dead in a refinery fire, the 8 dead here in Calif a couple years ago from poorly managed gas mains, or the >12,000 per year reported by the EPA to die from coal emissions (who cares about miners...?). Yes, H2, you've drunk something, but that doesn't stop you from writing nothing.
;]
MICHAEL HERMANN
MICHAEL HERMANN
October 11, 2012
Of course there is climate change, you don't see glaciars in Wisconsin anymore. And,those glaciars were gone way before the first SUV hit the road. Unfortunately there are those that use global warming, oh sorry I mean climate change to make a political point or a buck. We all want a cleaner enviroment but we also want to survive too.
MICHAEL HERMANN
MICHAEL HERMANN
October 11, 2012
Of course there is climate change, you don't see glaciars in Wisconsin anymore. And,those glaciars were gone way before the first SUV hit the road. Unfortunately there are those that use global warming, oh sorry I mean climate change to make a political point or a buck. We all want a cleaner enviroment but we also want to survive too.
Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
October 11, 2012
We should take this as a symptom of a larger problem. US talent is falling behind. High unemployment with huge numbers of skilled positions unfilled. Leading the top 10 are skilled trades and engineers, IT professionals and financial professionals not far behind and qualified teachers perenially in the list. The system is depleted of STEM students at every level. US universities graduate fewer American born engineers than ever - only able to sustain enrollment with large numbers of foreign students. 'In 2009 the U.S. graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math and chemical engineering combined'. They also graduated 7 journalism students for every 1 engineer (13:1 counting only American born graduates).
Engineers create the new products that create and sustain jobs. A single engineering position is worth an average $22M/a to the economy. When Japanese and German engineers design better cars and Korean engineers design better refrigerators, jobs leave. When America's leading digital equipment company couldn't find engineers and technicians at home, they moved to China. In spite of huge underinvestment in STEM, Americans continue to lead in Nobel prize wins, so there's still hope (except that the average age keeps going up).
The typical American lives in a world surrounded by possessions they can barely operate and don't understand - alienation towards science can be expected. History is littered with examples of technology triumphs: bronze swords, ballistics, steel, cannon, rifles, machine guns, tanks, radar, A-bombs etc. The technologically inferior lost. Variations of the same story repeat in every field of human endeavor and permeates economics. The science as hoax commentators hate the future but blind rage makes great theatre.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 11, 2012
Whewee... Everyman has a god, religion, money, science or many other things.

Step back and the global warming theory has been fairly well discredited. It is evident that we are messing up the world at a scary rate and we are affecting climate. The myth busting has meant that those who not so much anti Green but pro oil/coal are missing the real point.

What is the real alternative to the grid? A grid that is vunerable and old. The nuke stations are unpopular, coal are dirty, and and and. Cost is the best way to get the free market to migrate.

What is being done at the fundimental level of design of properties? We are very aware of the long term security and cost savings of efficient buildings.

I have long wanted an electrical car, yet the stuff punted is over marketed and under performs, driven by political correctness,,. They require connecting to the grid. I am waiting for the time we can honestly design buildings to provide renewable energy to recharge cars park there...
Louis Shaffer
Louis Shaffer
October 11, 2012
Aaron - this is false equivelency and another big problem with America! It is not the same if a minority of "college educated" people can support one postion on any issue if the vast majority support another. For example, the scientific community as a whole has decided that evolution is good science and well supported. That does not mean that no one can find counter arguments that say that creationalism is the truth. We should NOT teach these in school as two equal but different theories. The US is the only country in the western world where this is even a discussion.

It is simply not the cas that there is an equal amount of science on both sides of climate change. The whole world is pretty much past this except us!
Aaron Huertas
Aaron Huertas
October 11, 2012
@shafflo -- I don't think "ignorance vs. enlightenment" captures what's happening with public opinion. On climate change, the greater someone's education level, the more likely they are to be able to find data and facts that back up their point of view. So, for instance, college-educated contrarians have more confidence in their rejection of mainstream climate science than high-school educated contrarians. The same pattern of education correlating with stronger opinions holds for people who accept mainstream climate science. Beyond that, I find it's never helpful to imply or say someone is "ignorant" when talking about this or any other topic. We all come to life with our own unique set of experiences that can make us more or less friendly to what science has to say about the world around us.

@Eisenhower Nice handle. We left names of hosts, guests and columnists out of the report write-up, which you link to in your comment, because we thought it was more important to focus on the news outlets and the company that owns them rather than individual personalities. The coding data for the analysis, which does include this information, is on the web page linked in the original article above. I'm not sure precisely what you're calling into question on our graphical translation of IPCC data. In any case, I'm glad to hear you're finding success in your renewable energy business. And if you haven't been there, the D-Day Memorial in Bedford, VA has a wonderful tribute to Eisenhower.
Louis Shaffer
Louis Shaffer
October 11, 2012
'Since the earth was created 9,863 years ago, the temperature has been pretty stable. Coal is part of man's inheritance.'

What else do you need to say? We live in a country that is rather uneducated and ignorant. Many people don't believe in science because they did not understand it in school. They believe the bible is literal despite all historical evidence to the contrary. This relieves them of responsibility toward the world and the rest of humanity.

Maybe it is not so black and white, but it is more and more evident that the reason the US is so backward when it comes to climate science is that there is a large part of the poplulation that is simply ignorant. That is not to say that they are stupid or even did not go to college. Ignorance means ignoring fact and reason.

The problem with this is that the effects are real. We have real problems with things like deficit and energy because we can't be bothered to do the math or at least listen to those that are studying and understand these matters.
Willem Ferguson
Willem Ferguson
October 11, 2012
This conversation illustrates graphically how far behind the US is with repect to the rest of the world. As individuals involved in renewable energy, one would expect some perspective with respect to the broader issues as to why generate renewable energy at all? Wake up guys and gals, there is a big wide world around you. Look at Europe and China. Anyone who still doubds the importance of what we are dong to this earth of ours is not well informed.
Robert Hilbun
Robert Hilbun
October 10, 2012
Well here we are again ........... did they find water on Mars yet?
Rich Borba
Rich Borba
October 10, 2012
To show just how full of it and political NOT scientific UCS is go to their page on the "massive increase" in extreme weather caused by global warming: http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/impacts/extreme-weather-climate-change.html

Then go to this link to see the real data (All sourced with links you can check) and see the actual number of all extreme events for past 70 years by type of event. These ask yourself who are you gonna believe UCS or YOUR LYING EYES!!!

Then also read their study, i use that term loosely, on Fox News climate bias. It is so poorly done and biased that it couldn't get a passing grade as an 8th grade study project. (Note Fox may be bias but this study proves nothing, its not even sourced of what the biased quotes were and if a host or guest made them.)
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/global_warming/Is-News-Corp-Failing-Science.pdf

Just in case anyone wonders where I am coming from, I am in RE industry with hundreds of installed commercial, industrial and a few utility projects. I believe CO2 has wormed earth about 1.8 degrees but further warming is limited as CO2 heating effect has significantly diminishing returns for each doubling. Im skeptical because the models that predict doomsday and done a terrible job predicting anything to date and have all vastly overstated expected warming. I may be wrong but I am not building my business on AGW because if it is wrong of vastly overstated I'm out of business. I build it on real value I can deliver today not some maybe that wont happen til long after I am dead.

Our industry should run from UCS as they will only sully our reputation we work hard to try and build.
Philip Haddad
Philip Haddad
October 10, 2012
While it is clear that fossil fuels are a major contributor to global warming, I contend that it is the heat released by the burning of these fuels, not the CO2 by-product. That is the reason we use this FUEL. Including nuclear power we are currently emitting 50x10E16 btus annually into the atmosphere. The atmosphere has a mass of 530x10E16 kilograms and can potentially be heated by 0.17*F by this heat. Actual temperature rise is about one fourth that due to cooling by glacial melting and by removal of 5000 btus per pound of CO2 converted through photosynthesis. There are no correlations of rising CO2/temperature that can show that CO2 is a cause of temperature rise. The NOAA uses the Paleo data of the 400,000 previous years to try to make the point that rising CO2 caused the rise in temperature but it was the change in earth's orbit which caused more solar heat to cause the temperature rise (Malenkovitch cycles). An examination of those graphs show clearly that the temperature fell faster than the CO2, so CO2 was not supporting or causing temperature. The NOAA goes on to try to establish that these data can be used to determine a 'climate sensitivity' to CO2. What better way to undermine confidence in our 'science experts'. It is clear that fossil fuels must be eliminated and replaced with renewable energy such as solar, wind, hydroelectric, and biomass. This will be difficult. As to our energy policy we should replace imported fuel with our own production. This will not help the global warming problem, nor will it hurt it. In the meantime this will give us more energy security and will help our economy and balance of payments.
Sandy Caruso
Sandy Caruso
October 10, 2012
No wads here Alex, just not drinking the global warming green kool aid. Holy Cow....12,000 folks die each year from OIL? Can you be more specific? How did the OIL kill them? Did they drink it? Did it burn them to death? Did they drown in it? I know there were approximately 17,000 who died from drunk drivers, another 11,000 who were murdered, and WOW...5 MILLION that died from smoking. But OIL...I don't know if that is really that big a threat. There are more folks that enter the hospital for seemingly routine procedures and never make it out alive.

I agree totally about wind power(bird blenders) being a total waste of time and money. No so however regarding solar unless you do have batteries.

Nobel Prize winners? I'm not impressed anymore especially since buffoons like Jimmah Carter are awarded the prize. Obama another for peace??? Are you kidding me?

Better read and re-read Eisnhower's comments. I would only add global warming is about MONEY and the sleazy policitians trying their best to fleece the taxpayers.
Rich Borba
Rich Borba
October 10, 2012
UCS works overtime to scare Americans about a whole host of imagined environmental problems associated with genetically modified food. But every authoritative regulatory agency, including the Environmental Protection Agency and the World Health Organization, declares that biotech food crops are perfectly safe.

At UCS, politics drives science -- not the other way around. "We undervalue our scientists and agriculturalists if we accept today's productive, but highly polluting agriculture," UCS claims. Of course, UCS advocates organic-only agriculture, the widespread adoption of which (at today's anemic levels of production) would result in mass starvation. So in this instance, some form of technology will surely have to save the day, even for organic farmers.

Respectable scientists operate by considering a question, developing a methodology to answer that question, and only then arriving at a conclusion. They disdain political interference, and go to the media only when their conclusions warrant immediate public attention. The Union of Concerned Scientists stands this process on its head. It develops a press strategy first, and then conducts politically tainted and methodologically flawed analysis. After all, it's getting harder to convince the media that your environmental scare is more lurid than the next guy's. You need good PR. That's why UCS partners with slick Washington PR firms -- to get attention, whether or not there's good science behind the sound bites.

The Union of Concerned Scientists has a lousy track record. Their predictions are often laughably, and sometimes tragically, wrong. An examples:In 1980 UCS predicted that the earth would soon run out of fossil fuels."It is now abundantly clear," the group wrote, "that the world has entered a period of chronic energy shortages." Oops! Known reserves of oil, coal and natural gas have never been higher, and show every sign of increasing.

RE needs real science not political PR Hacks
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
October 10, 2012
Looks like H2Solar... has "panties in a wad" after spending so much time writing the drivel above & below...

"Man-cause climate change is a complete HOAX. Sorry if the libs and evironmentalists all get their panties in a wad"

The reality is that both the combustion industry and some naive environmental folks & orgs have lobbied away any chance to address the disruption of Earth's Carbon Cycle when it could have been done decades ago, as a President & a few Nobel folks planned: http://tinyurl.com/6xgpkfa

Instead, the combustion folks even helped anti-nuke folks, as at Shoreham, Long Island, because they knew, and know, nuclear power is the only source that can put them out of business and stop them from killing >12,000 Americans/year.

JFK planned to do that by 2000. Nixon goofed on ignorance & funding, and so now we have blown the natural Carbon Cycle's ability to recycle geologic carbon -- we've swamped it by a factor of 100 or so, note readings at bottom...
http://energyseminar.stanford.edu/node/461

Problem today is folks thinking it's ok to speak from scientific & engineering ignorance. For example, local solar (DG) is great. Solar/wind 'farms' are absurd wastes. Anyone can learn why. Promoters love subsidies & don't want that.
;]
Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
October 10, 2012
"Living near a wet coal ash storage pond is significantly more dangerous than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, according to a risk assessment done by EPA" ... where's the pathos in that? Enter the 'Coal Residuals Reuse and Management Act' - a law defining this stuff as perfectly harmless - enough with the EPA's scary stories. This is a story I never saw on CNN. Maybe if some movie star gets arrested then the facts would come out: like how many times they've been arrested before and what was their last movie. At least the other guys had the time: for them this is a good news story.
Sandy Caruso
Sandy Caruso
October 10, 2012
Let's face the real facts. Man-cause climate change is a complete HOAX. Sorry if the libs and evironmentalists all get their panties in a wad but this is about MONEY and taxing us all 'to-death' for breathing, etc. If not by our own government then the upcoming New World (Order)government, UN, so on and so on. All you have to do is follow the money. It's that simple. Al Gore scammed the believers out of $200 million with his 'Inconvenient Truth' then continues to fly around in his gargantuous, air polluting jet while living on a 22 acre compound using huge amounts of utilities produced by OMG...'fossil fuel'.

Obama's green energy jobs program was nothing more than government loans to companies where the money would be funneled back into his campaign. The companies failed and the American taxpayers were left holding the bag.

How does MONEY stop glaciers from melting? How does MONEY stop tornadoes from forming? How does MONEY stop droughts, floods, hurricanes, etc, etc. To believe MONEY can stop the weather is like saying pencils mispell words, spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat and since Obama was elected the oceans would cease to rise.

Climate change is a natural phenomenom and follows a natural cycle. It has been happening since the earth was created and the cycle will continue. The tropical weather age of the dinosaurs followed by the ice-age that destroyed them is a perfect example.

Now all that being said I believe in renewable energy mainly to get out from under the thunb of the utility companies. I also believe if this nation was energy independent many of our money woes and jobs would return. Drill...on private land and utilize fracking techniques. It puts people back to work and restores their dignity.
Aaron Huertas
Aaron Huertas
October 10, 2012
@GeraldR – I think coverage of threats to wildlife can contribute to what communications scholars call a "terrarium problem" where people tend to think of environmental issues as something that only affects "nature" and doesn't affect us in our own communities. I do think the media can do a better job connecting stories about wildlife back to our everyday lives, but the connections are often multi-step and take a while to explain.

@davidcarl – I mention Abraham Lincoln because the United States has a long legacy of grounding its decision-making in solid, independent science. I fear we're getting away from that. I also directly quoted some folks who say climate change is a hoax and the polling linked above bears out that a significant minority of Americans do believe that. I agree with your point about energy efficiency; the tangible right-now benefits can often be much more important to people than the overall emissions reduction contributions such technology makes.

@timgabz, @csworder, @howard-michael-340054, @anonymous, @davidcarl – I'll follow my own advice here and won't get into a long back-and-forth over the reality of human-induced climate change. I've noticed that a lot of comment sections on articles about climate science often devolve into talking past one another. In addition to the resources linked above, I also recommend SkepticalScience.com which presents scientific information in response to common questions and objections to climate science.
Aaron Huertas
Aaron Huertas
October 10, 2012
Thanks for your comments, everyone. Here are some responses in two comments.

@jeff-kelly-146257 – The Journal of Risk Research paper linked above goes more in-depth on the cultural values that inform affinity or antipathy toward large, established business interests.

@robhilbun – Thank you!

@pokorny – Yes, it's been disturbing to see broader-scale pushback on all sort of environmental issues because those activities often involve attempts to discredit science. This isn't unique to climate change; historically, it's also happened with childhood lead poisoning, acid rain and the ozone hole.

@rgpeterson and @anonymous – I'm not well-qualified to delve into religious matters. But I can point you to a book from a scientist and Christian whom I greatly admire. You may enjoy it: http://climateforchangethebook.com/

@donald-kinda – Rep. Saxton (now retired) was a cosponsor of the 2005 Climate Stewardship Act, which would have established a trading program for carbon emission allowances. However, my time in the office was largely focused on constituent service and press relations, so I don't recall talking to him or other staff directly about climate change. Military affairs were among the biggest priorities for the office since the district houses and is near several military bases and has a large number of veterans. That said, the value of the shore to the region's economy and history was also important and very much on the office's radar.
George Reynoldson
George Reynoldson
October 10, 2012
A slow discriminating thoughtful read of GOEBBELS' PRINCIPLES OF PROPAGANDA (GPoP) (http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html) in the context of the revolving doors of DOE, DoA, DoD, FOX, CNN, the conservative "think tanks" (Heritage, AEI, CATO etc.) and possibly even Executive Branch and Congressional "science committees" may help bring further understanding to this already excellent discussion.

Just think seriously about the new definitions of media driven political correctness (PC) AND of course the revolving door money flow. Then, reread GPoP again.
David Carl
David Carl
October 10, 2012
You demonstrate why there are skeptics several times in your writing. First you mention that the National Academy of Science was founded during Lincoln's term. So what. Do you believe skeptics are republican and the fact that something started during Lincoln's term will change their minds. It has no bearing on the actual argument and provides fodder to cloud the issue.

Second, you refer to skeptics as saying climate change is a hoax. I know of no one who believes the planet has not gotten warmer, especially if you pick the mid 1800's as your baseline. The cause of the warming is the issue and I know many people who will argue the cause. When you mischaracterize your opponents arguments you bring your own arguments into question.

Also, it is characterized as saving the planet. The truth is the planet does not need to be saved, mankind does. If the predictions come true the human race may have difficulty surviving but the Earth will still orbit the sun.

As was mentioned by an earlier commentor, make the argument more personal and more timely. Switching to more efficient lighting may stop the oceans from rising which may mean Miami is not flooded (years and years from now) but it will save me money. Saving money is good for me right now whether I care about Miami 100 years from now or not.

Also, maybe the issue is not that the well to do are afraid to upset the apple cart, maybe the less fortunate believe someone else will pay for the changes. Many may say I am being crass, but if you pay no income tax you do not care what the National Academy of Science spends. You are more concerned with SS, something you are paying into.
Robert Hilbun
Robert Hilbun
October 10, 2012
Mr anonymous, you tell me how much volcanic CO2 and sun is heating up and all other factors that can contribute to warmer planet, then add on all human factors clear cutting forest, carbon energy burning, agriculture ect., ect. And at lest 3/4 of scientist that study this say so many tons of CO2 in air equal so many degrees rise in earth temp. This man made carbon and other related heat inducing is the only carbon we can possibly have any control over, so why not at least try, unless the other earth factors are going to take our way of life out so fast we don't make any real difference anyway. I know we can all eat pellets and live in domes but hey what fun.
Tim Gulden
Tim Gulden
October 10, 2012
What if we quantified man kinds non-renewable BTU contributions to the world in a manner that we can grasp. Currently it is equivalent to the size of a forest fire raging 24/7/365/ for decades the size of Texas. Would this little man made heater have a warming effect on our earth? Would it contribute any future heat if we shut it off? This does not include the atmospheric carbon dioxide insulating effects, the black soot settling on the ice accelerating its melting, nor other effects that I am not currently aware of. What kind of earth do you want to leave for our future generations?
Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
October 10, 2012
Media coverage these days is rarely content based. Most 'news' coverage is punditry - handicapping passes for expertise. So often, what is presented is just predicting which issues will be supported by one political party or another - no actual discussion, let alone investigation, of the issues themselves. But even 'educational' channels dumb the science down to insignificance. Unfortunately, sorrow sells, logic does not, so even in-depth, the essential science consists of dead loons and not the chemistry of environmental mercury. One of the curiosities is how frequently we see coverage of environmental effects on wildlife but hardly ever on humans - sick bears make good empathetic TV, sick humans not so much.
Perhaps it runs deeper - are most journalists creative writing grads? In the modern era, the essential story is that Marie Curie and Albert Einstein went for a long walk in the woods - one died of cancer and the other separated from his wife. End of story. I am often annoyed by our local public broadcaster whose news stories frequently feature mis-statements about even basic science. But, on any given day, our minister of the environment (an ex journalist) can be counted on to take it to a whole other level. One can guess that it's because STEM graduates are a minority audience. One has to wonder whether more media coverage of any science would be beneficial.
Donald Kinda
Donald Kinda
October 10, 2012
To Aaron Huertas: You worked for Republican Jim Saxton? What was his take on the climate change science, and how did this affect your view?
ANONYMOUS
October 10, 2012
Albert Einstien quoted that "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Climate change??? since when has the climate not been changing in all the years of earth existence? Someone said a mouthful about the political posturing and grandstanding about some ill stated supposed facts about climate change. Climate change is largely due to man's activities... who come up with that one? For those who spend all their time believing the news as it is politically slanted to the uneducated, take the time to find out about new discoveries from satellite imaging, follow how many active Volcanoes have been spewing over the last few years, find out where most of the CO2 comes from on the planet. How much CO2 does one Volcano spew per day let alone the 40+ from a couple years ago. How much CH4 and CO2 does the oceans produce? There is so much info that is not objective coming from scientists that are using their profession as a form of credibility, as soon as you steer away from objectivity, professionalism means nothing and the credibility goes out the window. I'm not saying man is not a contributing factor, however the facts are overstated by so called professionals, enviro groups and politicians

Global warming... a phony crisis to get a bunch of money from the taxpayers, the earth has been going through warming and cooling cycles for all it's existence, man will survive it, we have already. The only thing that will make us extinct is our own stupidity.
Christopher Munson
Christopher Munson
October 10, 2012
I appreciate the particular point of resisting the urge to argue endlessly about the theory of climate change and whether it's influenced by human kind. I've been skeptical, simply because I lack the expertise to derive such conclusions on my own, and in my research, the supposed experts are not all lined up on one side of the debate (although the number of those experts accepting human influence continues to increase). A more universally accepted argument is that pollution is bad, and burning of fossil fuels leads to pollution; therefore we should do what we can to curtail the burning of fossil fuels. Further, extracting fossil fuels creates dangers to our environment, and since many Americans have determined this risk is unacceptable, our reliance on foreign oil has skyrocketed as well as the need to interject ourselves in conflicts throughout the world to 'protect our interests'. The arguments of pollution and environmental protection together with national security should suffice as ammunition for continued funding and support of "green" energy technologies regardless of politics. Should potential for climate change be mentioned in the argument; certainly... but it should not form the basis of a single pronged debate, while ignoring other facts for which there is no reasonable contrarian argument.
ANONYMOUS
October 10, 2012
Since the earth was created 9,863 years ago, the temperature has been pretty stable. Coal is part of man's inheritance.
Robert Peterson
Robert Peterson
October 10, 2012
Well written and presented article on a significant topic. However, I believe the differences between the believers and dissenters on Man-Made climate change are even more fundamental than described; the difference is based in human belief systems. There are two Belief Systems in the world, one being a basic belief in creation and the intelligent design of our universe, the other is belief in a random ordered universe where man is the highest form of intelligence, given that other forms of evolved life may exist other than on the Earth.
If we refer to the first as “Religious” and the second as “Agnostic” we can define their difference of opinions on man-made global warming as the difference between “God’s will be done” Vs “Man’s control of Planet Earth”!
In this sense Environmentalism can be seen to be at the core of Liberal Progressive thought today because it is the ultimate driver of so many other liberal positions, such as support for abortion, contraception and even gay marriage all of which have the potential to reduce global population and therefore reduce stress on the Earth caused by a continually growing humanity. These same positions however are anathema to the Religious group, and are seen as a violation of the individual right to Life itself.
Both “Belief Systems” are at the center of the Global Warming argument; the risk we face is mainly from Zealots’ on either side. No one can argue against the potential benefits of Renewable Energy; however rushing technology before it’s ready for mass-implementation has proven to be a flawed and costly mistake. And forcing thousands of individuals to lose jobs in the Coal, Oil and Gas Industries before other forms of Energy production can support the load is foolishness and detrimental to us all. What’s needed is a balanced approach to the eventuality of improved Energy of all types in ways that don’t force either side to accept a new belief system.
MICHAEL HOWARD
MICHAEL HOWARD
October 10, 2012
There is no such thing as climate stasis, change is inevitable. The question becomes, do you want a warm, lush, green Earth or one covered in ice and snow? I'd much rather live in a jungle than on a glacier.
Raymond Pokorny
Raymond Pokorny
October 10, 2012
Thanks, too, for the article. I have found it interesting that people accept the need for clean air and water more easily, it seems, than accepting climate science. When you assess behavior change that assures clean air and water, one finds a side effect of the behavior change reduces man made global warming activities. Could be the Dark Side knows this is true and continues an all out assult on EPA and other enviornmental regulations.
Robert Hilbun
Robert Hilbun
October 10, 2012
This article is the kind of cool headed debate we all need to start having. Thanks
C. Sworder
C. Sworder
October 10, 2012
For many of us in the renewables sector, it is largely irrelevant whether the hypotheses that climate change is happening and/or its cause is human activity, are correct. It might be provable in millennia.

The best that can be said at present is that on the balance of probabilities, climate change is occurring (as it has always), and human activity might be a causative factor.

What interests us/our shareholders are the cost reduction and convenience benefits of renewables in the hands of our customers, particularly in the off-grid markets.
Timothy Hosking
Timothy Hosking
October 10, 2012
Statistical results rely on the strength of the data they are derived from. Unfortunately there has been massaging of data and sexing up of results. The prediction of ice age from global cooling has been changed to global warming, opportunist politicians climbing on the wagon and it is easy to understand why cynicism is common. There exists a lot of ammunition for the antagonists to let loose with.
I live and work in Africa and the pollution is a concern. However I believe the more important issue is securing of essential utilities. Note that in the developed world they are going for wind farms and solar farms for feeding the grid. The grid is the problem where most are old, obsolescent and vulnerable. The economic risk factor is chronic and losses huge when these fail. I have been seeking off grid rather than green solutions in design and implementation of buildings so occupants don't have to buy gensets and all the hassles that go with them.
Currently home and business owners rely on big corporations or govt for everything. When there is a crisis it always falls apart. Small grids or off grid I believe to be the future for alternative solutions. Poorer and older areas are a big problem, but getting others off will mean less stress and pollution with more opportunity for the wind farms etc.
Willem Ferguson
Willem Ferguson
October 10, 2012
The phenomenon, as indicated, is clearly due to a number of factors.

1) The largely short term time horizon of organised business. No normal business plans 300 years or more ahead.

2) Climate change poses a real threat to the existing business models. One of the main reasons why the US has not ratified the Kyoto protocol is the perception that climate change mitigation is simply too expensive. (And, secondly that any governemnt that aggressively implements this will simply not be re-elected). It is amazing that a country can have an attitude of "well, we cannot do it now, lets proceed as usual", leaving most of the pro-active actions to the individual states. The federal government has not taken a strong stance, and if a Republican president is elected, even that (weak) stance wil probably evaporate.

3) Organised business in the US has a much stronger stronger grip on the open community than in most other parts of the world. Therefore it is in their interest of these companies to oppose in publc what is in their financial interest. if this were not the case, their public image would be easily tarnished.

4) The existing weak public image on climate change in the US has a lot of innertia. Many well-informed Americans consider it their birth right to drive a V8 or V12 truck and to install highly CO2-intensive air conditioning, thus leaving the rest of the world to worry abou mitigating the emissions and climate change inherent in these activities. We could not expect Fox to present views that are totally at variance with the main stream public views.

Having taken part in radio debates on the issue of climate change and the public perception of it, I am impressed by the effort that organised business will put into presenting the opposing point of view that suits them.
Jeff Kelly
Jeff Kelly
October 9, 2012
"So why do we see these ideological takes on climate change pop up in the media and public so often? ... a possible answer: fundamental beliefs we have about how society should function deeply affect how we perceive scientists' findings about risks society faces."

Perhaps you could state this more simply - the Owners of certain media organizations are allied with the profit interests of the fosil fuel industry. Business, in other words, reflects the opinions we see published in the media, not what the public thinks. FOX is not asking deep questions about how society functions, they are doing what Rupert tells them to do.
Geoff Haines-Stiles
Geoff Haines-Stiles
October 9, 2012
The "Earth: The Operators' Manual" project, on climate change and clean energy, has just published a video on Lincoln and the founding of the National Academy of Sciences, and the Academy's role in assessing both climate science and energy options for the USA: please see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a92YHaTVlMs

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Aaron Huertas

Aaron Huertas

Aaron Huertas is a press secretary at the Union of Concerned Scientists, where he helps scientists communicate their research. Previously, he worked for Congressman Jim Saxton (R, NJ-3) and as an Explainer in the National Air and Space...
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