Solyndra Sues Suntech Over Claims of Solar Antitrust Conspiracy

Just reviewed Indosolar and the issues they have operating in India. Here is a silicon based vertically integrated manufacturer. Why are they having trouble? The article writer or financial press indicates its cheap imports from the USA and China. From the USA!!! But now lets look at reasons why Indosolar, Solar World, Jinko Solar, Schott Solar, Sharp Solar, First Solar and others are in trouble in a competitive marketplace. Sunpower is also in trouble, but for similar but different reasons. Now note that I specifically identified an Indian Company, two German Companies, two Chinese Companies, a Japanese Company and two US companies. Note also the large list of companies not on this list including ASP (a US company), Siliken (a Spanish company) and others. Basic reasons that these companies are having problems. a) They did not stay focused on their core business or had trouble defining what their core business is. - Are they a panel manufacturer, a solar cell manufacturer, a solar farm developer or a full system supplier? This is the fundamental problem with most of these companies in my humble opinion. b) Their panel efficiencies are below 17% (Sunpower is the exception). c) They forgot who their customers were. Does not bide well when you go after your customer's customer. d) They have not continuously driven down their manufacturing costs through quality conscience improvements, aka, Deming's 19 points, statistical process improvement, etc. e) They allowed themselves to get top heavy without adequate re-investment in engineering and manufacturing. Hard to move fast when you are fat instead of lean.

Solyndra had no value proposition. I could not find any demo or reference installation, with production data to validate performance.
Then its modules costed 3 times as much to make! over conventional thin-film modules. No case.

A huge hunk of our tax dollars went to fighting oil wars. About $9 trillion dollars so far.

Companies like Bechtel that were given no-bid contracts fattened lots of wallets. You remember Bechtel - Vice President Cheney's company?

Nine trillion dollars. Nine thousand billion dollars. Nine thousand, thousand million dollars.

Solyndra. $500 million. 0.0005% of nine trillion.

Solyndra. $500 million. Half of what we spend each day to import oil. 0.14% of what we spend on oil each year.

Solyndra. $500 million. Half of what we spend each day to deal with health and environmental damage caused by burning coal. 0.14% of what we spend because of coal each year.

Got perspective?

Where did the gov't monies of our tax base dollars go ? To what people specifically fattened their wallets in the end? Any trustworhty info?

We "hear " a lot, but what really?

Bob, already discussed. Their technology was not competitive. Put a lot of emphasis on marketing but were not able to sale the idea. High overhead in management costs. Were they bad practices or just naive? Good Question.

In 2007/2008, silicon spot prices were $350 to $450 per kg. Silicon cost per watt was $4.10 to $4.30. This is when Solyndra and other thin film companies found funding. Now, anyone watching the market saw that 42 new polysilicon plants were started in 2007 due to high price of polysilicon. In 2008, some of these were starting to come on line and by 2009 all 42 plants were predicted to be on line. Did the investors or thin film companies realize this? Good question. But if you are an investor or company, your business plan should be looking at your risks. If not, you are kidding yourself.

What bad practices on the part of Solyndra?

I had always thought what killed Solyndra more then bad business practices was the price of processed silicone dropping by over 2/3rds as new processing plants came online that were producing specifically for solar and not for electronics.

Solyndra would have had problems competing with that by itself, bt in conjunction with bad practices, well they killed themselves.

But just what I am given to understand.

shafflo - If you go back and read the financial press of the time Solyndra was viewed as a very promising company. They had a system that promised to get watts on rooftops for less cost per watt than other options.

No one (at least at the public press level) was predicting immense drops in solar prices. There was no discussion of a commoditizing solar market. Expectations were that solar prices would stay high for a long time.

Solyndra was in the position one might have found themselves if they invented a new way to make inexpensive high quality slide rules and as they were setting up their factory Texas Instruments introduced the scientific calculator.

(Two years after TI introduced their calculator the two major slide rule manufacturers had shut down manufacturing.)

Phil-M:

Sad too as I a trust you know: -can sue any, anytime...

hey is there any air-solar with screens or extruded-open hole-screen like collection that is E-Star cert, 2012.?

I ask because my solstar air-water (HX in the homes) are still working for 4/6 since 1980 installation... making Forced Air heat, doing space air-rotation and captured - air rotation and making all their HW (recirculating air off 3-way damper) in Dayton ohio about 80% of the needs.

Any available decent F/A-Solar, ( with proper air filters preventing 99% dust collection) today?

Solyndra did not technically have "cells." These were thin film coated glass tubes.

It is clear that there was a huge drop in solar prices as Chinese production muliplied so rapidly. I never saw signs of collusion between Chinese companies and suppliers. It was more like a race to get to the top, then suddenly everyone realized they had to do whatever they could to survive. They sold at whatever price they could get. I don't see it as dumping when there is simply much more avialability than demand in a commodity market. Chinese companies probably had some advantages (financing or at least guarantees), but many, many of them are losing huge amounts of money or going out of business. Solyndra was not alone in falling, but I see this as more the fact that only companies with huge levels of production (think First Solar) could get the economics needed to make it.

I can't comment on the lawsuit. Let the facts come out. I am a huge fan of Solar and think the Obama people had their hearts in the right place in putting so much effort in to make us competitive. China is doing the same on a larger scale! However, I never got the excitement about Solyndra. I never heard from ANYON that they had a great product that would compete on cost with what was clearly a commoditizing market. People in the panel business will tell you that at the end of the day, you can lose projects for being 2 cents higher on cost per watt even with all the great arguments about long term cost savings and efficiencies. The premium for brand names exists for only a minor part of the market. Solyndra was a bad bet. Luckily, there were man other good bets and we learn how to do it better. Best is to give incentive to people to install. That drives everything.

Bob, we provide systems and contract out installation if we are directly involved. The legal system does not always argue technology which is the problem with Solyndra. A lawyer tries to get the judge or jury emotionally involved. Solyndra invested in one of the more difficult thin film approaches and then applied it to a curved instead of flat surface, much more difficult.

Now, as a system provider, if I went after the most expensive approach which was technically not sound - For example, placing solar panels on a north facing roof - Do I have the right to sue someone who places panels on a south facing roof?

This is basically the argument for Solyndra technology. In placing their tubes North/South in the morning the solar cells facing west on the tube produced no power, while in the evening the cells facing east produced no power and at solar noon, only the cells at the top of the tube produced power but the east facing and west facing cells produced no power.

In a legal system that awarded monies to a lady who did not know that coffee is hot, or a farmer who places his ladder end in a pile of manure on a cold day and it slips out from under him as the day heats up - I have no great faith that the courts will use common sense in coming to a decision.

If this case goes to court Solyndra's attorneys will attempt to make a case that their business was destroyed by unfair practices. They will also make a claim for Solyndra's loss. They will have to bring evidence of malpractice by others and some factual basis for the dollar amount.

The court will decided whether case is foolish or not. If the court finds the case not-foolish, then they will decide on the amount of actual damages plus any punitive damages that should be paid.

How could the courts decide on a value of the future performance of the unproven Solyndra product, if such a foolish case could be proven? But, hey, the Solarworld, et al, vs China case shows the pliability of the US courts. It would indeed be a hoot if anything comes of this.

John - you are a solar installer, are you not?

Could you compete as an installer if your competition got its panels and hardware free and didn't have to pay for its labor?

Was Solyndra unfairly undercut by illegal practices? That will be for the court to decide. None of us have all the facts.

I want to see the next problems coming from the Chinese panels, who will guarantee the guarantee's for all these Chinese panels after they have unloaded then through out the world?????

Here is another example of a company who could not compete technically and have resorted to trying to use lawyers to gain money they never earned. Its sad really. Instead of trying to be competitive, US companies resort to propaganda and legal actions to try and shift the blame onto someone else.

I take it that those that bough ADRs of Chinese Solar companies are going to suffer the most.

solarMD - rewriting history is your specialty?

Got money in this game, perhaps?

Could be looking reasonably just like BP in 1980.
It will be done again and again
without major markets equal-ification duties in appreciable order.

Are we seeing a comic distraction tactic? Solyndra would not have survived even without the Chinese PC cells or modules coming to America!