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The A B Cs of PV Technology Pricing

Paula Mints, Navigant Consulting
August 22, 2012  |  29 Comments

The current PV industry consolidation is affecting every level of the PV value chain as well as pressuring the prospects for the CSP and CPV industries. Unfortunately, despite continued margin compression and a steady stream of PV manufacturer failures there is little consensus about pricing and many misunderstandings about it.

In any industry there are different levels of buyers along with different buyer behaviors.  For PV and the other solar technologies there is another level of pricing pressure that does not typically affect other industries.  The grid-connected application, representing 99% of solar industry sales in 2011, is driven by the availability of subsidies and incentives of some sort.  That is, there needs to be a mechanism – even if it is set by bid – to stimulate the market.  The primary reason these mechanisms are necessary is the high upfront cost of installing the solar hardware.  Conventional energy also receives significant subsidies.  In some countries utility electricity has a retail delivery price below the cost of producing it.  Solar does not face a level playing field in this regard and this is unlikely to change. 

Incentives for solar are designed to scale down and eventually phase out over time as the cost of delivering PV electricity decreases.  As the solar industry remains incentive driven, its response to any available incentive (particularly profitable FiTs) can be likened to the annual running of the bulls in Pamplona, Spain. 

Currently, the PV industry is over capacity.  It also has an inventory problem on the demand side of the market that has been compounded by manufacturer failures, anti-dumping proceedings in the US, among other concerns.  Unfortunately, the situation PV manufacturer Suntech faces with a demand side partner may not be unique, and, if it is not unique the solar industry (all technologies) as a whole will face far more significant problems in the near future.  A good analogy in this regard is the global housing crash and another is the derivative trading that helped topple the industrialized world into recession.  A more recent example is the Libor scandal. 

The PV value chain stretches from its raw materials, including consumables, through machinery, to the person who installs a PV system on his or her roof.  The CSP and CPV industries have their own value chains.  In the current situation of low PV pricing, no participant is untouched.  The PV manufacturer’s low margins flow to its suppliers who then face margin pressure.  Buyers of PV technology and systems, educated to expect low prices, may delay purchase.  

The following A B Cs relate to the price of PV technology.

PV Pricing A

There are different prices in the PV market for technology (modules).  There is the price to the first buyer (first sale in the market).  The first buyer can be a distributer, an end user, an installer, system integrator, a module assembler or another PV manufacturer.  Typically, module assemblers and distributors are in the business of reselling PV modules at prices that include a markup.  When manufacturers buy technology from each other and rebrand it or assemble it into modules they are engaging in outsourcing (common since the dawn of terrestrial PV time). 

Even during relatively healthy periods in the PV industry there have been inventory sales among manufacturers and demand side participants.  These inventory sales are typically lower than the original price, sometimes significantly so.  To use a U.S. cultural example, sales of inventory are a bit like a garage sale.  That is, the point is to get rid of the inventory because it represents a cost to the hold of it. Figure 1 offers an example of the PV pricing currently in the market; first buyer, distributor to second buyer along with inventory pricing.  Expectations of prices that will continue to be lower than that of resold inventory act as a market mechanism to hold prices down.  When roadmaps for lower prices are developed from inventory prices these roadmaps act as a mechanism to hold prices down.  As incentive levels drop and project bids (tender, PPA) are set too low, they act as a mechanism to hold prices down. 

Figure 1: Examples of PV Pricing

PV Pricing B

Cost and price in the PV industry have only a glancing relationship to each other, that is, there is only occasionally a relationship between the two.  Figure 2 traces PV pricing from 2001 through Q2 2012 from the technology manufacturer to the first buyer.  During the early 2000s the price for PV technology (essentially the module) was below the cost of production.  During most of the PV industry’s terrestrial history it has been a buyer’s market.

In 2004, the European Feed-in Tariff incentive model began driving demand for PV systems.  From 2004 through 2007, prices for PV technology increased, as did the price for polysilicon (raw material for crystalline technology).  Rapid growth fueled by an assumed stable incentive instrument caught the attention of investors who put a significant amount of money into both the supply and demand sides of the industry.  Utility scale (multi-megawatt) installations were born.  During the mid-2000s PV technology manufacturers began enjoying healthy margins and profit, most for the first time.  In the early days of terrestrial PV the existence of a healthy parent, often a utility was a necessity – this changed in the mid-2000s.  During this time many companies chose to become public entities.  The IPO boom in PV did more than just provide necessary R&D and expansion money to the industry; it also revealed the fault lines in it.  The rhetorical question is … was this young industry ready to make its growing pains public? 

Incentive rates are typically set by observation of market pricing behavior and are lowered when price drops are observed and when markets begin overheating.  Basically, prices are assumed to reasonably reflect the cost of manufacturing.  This behavior is serving as a mechanism to hold prices down to unhealthy levels and leaves little room for the industry to recover.  As a PV technology manufacturer typically has little control over its raw materials, this means that when the price for materials rises the manufacturer’s margins become tighter – particularly in a low incentive environment.  This could lead to short cuts and lower quality technology and system installations. 

Figure 2: PV Technology Pricing (ASP) to the First Buyer, 2001 – Q2 2012

PV Pricing C

PV pricing C is about appropriately educating the electricity buying public and setting appropriate expectations.  Though some buyers in the market prefer to rent electricity and those needs can be met by solar leases and utility ownership, there are still customers who would enjoy the energy independence that owning a PV system provides.  This second group, system buyers, could benefit from zero to low interest financing and education about solar.  During the industry’s few profitable years, roughly 2004 through 2008, it did not invest enough in educating potential solar system buyers about energy independence.  It did, however, invest a significant amount of money in educating governments and potential buyers that technology price declines would accelerate and that grid parity was imminent.  The fact that grid parity with subsidized conventional energy is a mirage did not stop the celebrations as PV prices began to crash.  Certainly now that PV industry failures outnumber the successes a different message can be developed and delivered. 

The current solar industry consolidation has been expected for years and it will be long and painful. Eventually it will affect demand side players. The industry’s recovery does not have to be equally as long.  It can be shortened by a strong campaign to change the expectations of the buyers from expecting cheap to expecting high quality and by industry participants standing together to create a strong, unified message instead of lining up on opposite sides and fighting amongst themselves.  Pulling together as an industry still leaves room for healthy competition.  Accepting that today’s low prices and margins are not healthy might just be the first step to recovery. 

29 Comments

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Jens Stubbe
Jens Stubbe
September 6, 2012
I wonder why Paula Mints has such limited outlook in her position?

It is obvious for anyone that the solar industry is going to become the greatest industry of all times and that RE will be far cheaper and end the age of nuclear and fossil energy.

Her belief that the industry is going to increase prices are so naive it cannot be taken serious.

We are standing right in front of major technology breakthroughs that will drive PV prices down far faster than Paula imagines and towards a price point so much lower than she thinks possible.

Part of the trouble for her is that she somehow believes solar panels will remain much the same. That is a misconception. The next generation wafer based solar cells will be based upon technologies that uses far less costly materials. Right behind this approaching last wafer PV generation there are much fiercer hetero and multi junction PV technologies that will end the days of solar panels as we have come to know them.

They will not only exceed the Stocksley-Quissere limit but they will use less than 1% of the expensive photo active materials and also go very lean on any other materials and energy used for production.

The most likely price point will be below the $0.10 per Watt level.

This will off cause mean that most companies in the PV panel production business will terminate operations.

Anyone familiar with the development of computers, flat panel displays etc. etc. will recognize the history and will know what disruptive technologies do to markets.

In the PV business both the last of the wafer based PV technologies and the first of the hetero/multijunction technologies are publicly known and reported here at REnewable energy world.

I do not understand Paula's very limited enthusiasm about the PV price down spiral but I will urge her to read up on the similar development in the Flat Panel Industry and the LED industry in the hope that she eventually understands the market dynamics.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 30, 2012
My pleasure. Lots of great info there-- paid for by our tax dollars!

Another great (and salient) article series about coal-fired power in America can be found here at Grist.org:

http://grist.org/series/2010-08-20-power-struggle-americas-old-coal-plants-and-new-epa-regulations/

A good overview of changes in the power industry, vis a vis the new coal regulations going into effect. Two years old, but good stuff.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 30, 2012
ReBen: That is a great find. We can really see the dramatic break in the pattern on new year's day 2012. That has to be the EPA directive to enforce the new mercury standards that resulted in the closure of several plants in the NE US, and probably the scaling back in ops of many others. That, combined with the plummeting price of NG, has dramatically changed the power gen landscape. I wonder what the new percentages will be. Thanks for digging this up.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 30, 2012
Finally found the coal v. nGas stats I was looking for. nGas and coal on par in electricity production for the first time ever, this year, per EIA:

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=6990
Dimitar Mirchev
Dimitar Mirchev
August 27, 2012
@cliff-claven I completely agree with you on biofuels - they have very low EROI but I dont see what's are your numbers on PV and Wind's EROI. With technology maturing and improving constantly they say wind has better than 10:1 EROI and I'm not sure about PV. The main problem with PV (especially cristaline PV) is that no one knows how long will they last for sure - 25 years? 30-35 years. Why not 40 years since we have working PV installed 30 years ago? Without knowing the life of a PV module one can not calculate the EROI precisely. My bet is that modern good quality cristaline PV will degrate no more than 50% in 30 years and after that they will go on and on and on before they tottaly die after around 45-50 years. That makes their EROI bigger than 15-20 : 1. And it is even bigger in the right locations/conditions.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
Cliff-claven now you're speaking my language.

I have preached this (in some sense quite literally when I still taught courses in renewable energy. And yes one prime bit of the lecture concerned EROI) for years that if ethanol was such a good 'fuel' why do they not produce the ethanol from ethanol. Of course we all know the answer to that one.

It's interesting that just an hour ago I was grocery shopping and looked down at the headlines across the latest issue of the Oregonian. SOLAR WORLD STRUGGLES TO STAY ABOVE WATER FINANCIALL!! (not exactly verbatim but close)They are just over the hill from me so I watch them closely and I cheer for the underdog.

The one thought that flashed across my mind as I looked at the headline was if only they were a breeder factory. Using solar to make solar. Then a crude slap of reality woke me up from a dream state. I realized that they already were using renewable hydro from the Columbia and received rates as cheap as dirt.

Of course all of us who are still vertical and above ground know full well that Solar World's issue is not cheaper power. It's the Asian Giant across the pond who with full financial,legislative and political assistance from an amoral,ethereal entity known as international capital markets along with a very 'enlightened' Communist government, are literally eating the %99's stale lunch. (Of course that system of government is catnip or a wet dream to any 'died in the wool Wall Street %1 type since they have always hated that messy and time consuming democracy)

That Giant Asian country ,along with their Indian neighbors have such a voracious appetite for fossil fuels that they will soon supplant the US as the most gluttonous consumer of crude oil.

Ironically those two countries are not particularly concerned with the low EROI of renewable's. They are not only embracing them as an industry they need to dominate,but they are going full hog for all forms of renewable energy.

SILLY FOOLS?
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
@Larry: An autocratic government (ECONOMIC ROYALISTS)can force things on its citizens (SUBJECTS) against all sense and logic. (BY USING MASSIVE WEALTH AGGREGATED TO A FEW)Mao's (WEALTHY ELITES)self-confidence (AN ARROGANCE BASED ON INHERITED WEALTH) in his superior knowledge and intelligence justified him in forcing his enlightened economic policies of the 'Great Leap Forward' (TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS) that starved millions of his people to death and set back true economic progress by decades.(EVER SINCE RONALD REAGAN RAISED HIS HAND AND TOOK HIS BROKEN OATH) While a democracy cannot move as fast as a tyrannical regime, it has the advantage of recognizing folly (AS LONG AS THE MEDIA IS NOT OWNED BY OLIGARCHS WITH AN AGENDA) much faster and naturally changing direction (IF THERE IS IN FACT REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT AND NOT CORPORATE WHORES POSING AS REPRESENTATIVES)with greater agility. If it is also blessed with a free market(SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER EXISTED IN PARALLEL WITH ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT) and fiscally restrained government (OWNED AND OPERATED BY THOSE WHO BENEFIT THE MOST FROM LACK OF RESTRAINT WHILE THEIR SUBJECTS ARE ULTIMATELY GIVEN THE BILL FOR MASSIVE THEFT. TARP ANYONE?,) the people will not have their decisions made by a few in power (ALL POWER ULTIMATELY AGGREGATES TO THOSE WHO HOLD THE GOLD) who think they know better than everyone else,(Rush Limbaugh,Hannity,Dick Cheney) but will be able to make decisions for themselves and not watch their tax money wasted (CAN YOU SAY TWO ILLEGAL WARS ON A CREDIT CARD>)against their will (PROTESTS AGAINST THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY FELL ON DEAF EARS)on foolish schemes (IRAQ,AFGANISTAN,HOMELAND SECURITY,Patriot ACT,PRESCRIPTION DRUGS WITH NO OPEN BIDDING,TARP AND FINANCIAL DEREGULATION ETC ETC ETC).
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
By the way Cliff-Claven


CHEERS!

Or is it Clavin
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
"Using oil to make anything with an EROI less than oil (i.e., less than the 8:1 of diesel and gasoline) is wasting energy because the net EROI is dragged down by the lower EROI of the secondary energy."

cliff-claven!

Are you aware of just how profound a statement you make here?

Life can certainly sometimes appear to be orchestrated by a merry band of tricksters.

Was Colonel Drake really the ultimate Pied Piper?
Was that oil left in a hole in Pennsylvania just as a 'carrot on a stick' used to entice the empty headed among us to build our entire current existence on a substance that is extremely finite and certainly can never be duplicated in its present form?

Unless aliens come down and give us another gift similar to oil we as a society are in for a very rough ride.
(you realize of course that oil was originally deposited here by earlier alien visitors. They have certainly enjoyed watching us become addicted to their gift as they cruise the ionosphere using only solar power ';)
Somehow John D Rockefeller did look rather alien. Didn't he?

I urge everyone to read Cliff's statement and ponder just what it all means.

Somehow I get the idea that Cliff may not actually realize how much of a real quandary his statement reveals.

Now let us all get busy building those lifeboats for our new journey.
And no you cannot all be Captain Nemo
Some of us have to 'man the oars'.

And please don't demand you be appointed as the new Captain Ahab

That white whale you would be seeking is as much of an illusion as nuclear power or clean coal.
Or how about a fiscally conservative Republican??
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 26, 2012
@Larry: An autocratic government can force things on its citizens against all sense and logic. Mao's self-confidence in his superior knowledge and intelligence justified him in forcing his enlightened economic policies of the "Great Leap Forward" that starved millions of his people to death and set back true economic progress by decades. While a democracy cannot move as fast as a tyrannical regime, it has the advantage of recognizing folly much faster and naturally changing direction with greater agility. If it is also blessed with a free market and fiscally restrained government, the people will not have their decisions made by a few in power who think they know better than everyone else, but will be able to make decisions for themselves and not watch their tax money wasted against their will on foolish schemes. The U.S. lacks a federal green energy policy precisely because it is not as far down the socialist path as Europe. Hopefully that will also be our salvation.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
Cliff-claven now you're speaking my language. I have preached this (in some sense quite literally when I still taught courses in renewable energy. And yes one prime bit of the lecture concerned EROI) for years that if ethanol was such a good 'fuel' why do they not produce the ethanol from ethanol. Of course we all know the answer to that one. It's interesting that just an hour ago I was grocery shopping and looked down at the headlines across the latest issue of the Oregonian. SOLAR WORLD STRUGGLES TO STAY ABOVE WATER FINANCIALLY!! (not exactly verbatim but close)They are just over the hill from me so I watch them closely and I cheer for the underdog. The one thought that flashed across my mind as I looked at the headline was if only they were a breeder factory. Using solar to make solar. Then a crude slap of reality woke me up from a dream state. I realized that they already were using renewable hydro from the Columbia and received rates as cheap as dirt. Of course all of us who are still vertical and above ground know full well that Solar World's issue is not cheaper power. It's the Asian Giant across the pond who with full financial,legislative and political assistance from an amoral,ethereal entity known as international capital markets along with a very 'enlightened' Communist government, are literally eating the %99's stale lunch. (Of course that system of government is catnip or a wet dream to any 'died in the wool Wall Street %1 type since they have always hated that messy and time consuming democracy) That Giant Asian country ,along with their Indian neighbors have such a voracious appetite for fossil fuels that they will soon supplant the US as the most gluttonous consumer of crude oil. Ironically those two countries are not particularly concerned with the low EROI of renewable's. They are not only embracing them as an industry they need to dominate,but they are going full hog for all forms of renewable energy. SILLY FOOLS?
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 26, 2012
@larry: If you are concerned about running out of oil, then you should agree we should not be accelerating our use of oil by using it to make low EROI parasitic secondary energy. Using oil to make anything with an EROI less than oil (i.e., less than the 8:1 of diesel and gasoline) is wasting energy because the net EROI is dragged down by the lower EROI of the secondary energy. We should disconnect solar and wind from petroleum. Use only solar energy to make solar panels and only wind energy to make wind turbines. Let them bootstrap themselves up like coal and oil did. That would reveal their true EROIs and slow down our wasting of fossil fuel to buy us more time to switch to a primary fuel source with the energy and power density to truly support civilization.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 26, 2012
'To make 8 barrels of diesel requires 1 barrel of diesel. To make the 13 barrels of ethanol with the same energy as the 8 of diesel requires 8 barrels of diesel, with no net return in liquid fuel' >pTo make 8 barrels of diesel requires the availability of crude oil first and foremost.More specifically allot of it and at a total cost where processing it into diesel is still worth the effort. If we ignore incoherent ramblings of 'drill baby drill' from the likes of a Sarah Palin and far too many others who enjoy living in a similar impermeable anti intellectual bubble, and then accept as true, that even if we could discover the 'bubble dwellers' mythical oceans of crude oil stealthily lurking just under our feet,that crude oil is still finite.It will run our sooner than later. When even this Unobtainium form of crude oil is gone,ask yourself. What is plan B? Maybe when we answer that we don't have one will we realize just how much of an illusion our current energy and lifestyle reality is. An illusion generated by blissfully ignorant magicians. We are now all magicians. This entire EROI debate only helps to spotlight ever more brightly the insanity of our current lifestyle. No amount of ethanol,solar,wind,and especially Nuclear in any form will allow us to remain asleep and mindlessly enjoying the very temporary 'gifts' crude oil has given us. As a society we can embrace intellectual curiosity and creativity, in spite of those among us who view gross ignorance and delusional thinking as a virtue,and begin to prepare the energy 'life boats' that can carry us beyond the 21st century. 'Life boats' that carry us into a world where a new generation of enlightened folks will respond in a surprised voice, when told how their ancestors used precious crude oil deposits: YOU MEAN THEY BURNED IT?
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 26, 2012
Oops. Correction:

EIA gives [wind] 2.92% of the grid mix in *2011*

So sorry!
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 25, 2012
Thanks, larryofgalaxy, for the high score card!

Back to the fray:
I, too, was surprised to hear the dropping coal figures. I even went to EIA but 2011 stats is all they had. This from an npr.org article:

For decades, coal represented half of the nation's electricity generation, but it dropped to only 34 percent for the month of March.

I don't know their source, but they seem reputable to me. Here's the article link:

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/13/156747559/whats-killing-king-coal-in-west-virginia

And later in the same article:

Michael Zenker [i]s a coal analyst for Barclays. Last month, for the first time in U.S. history, natural gas generated a third of all U.S. electricity the same as coal, and Zenker says that trend is going to continue.

Sounds more like a rout than a "trend."

Anyway, EROI is not required to be as high as fossils deliver to be viable. Yes, corn ethanol's a bad joke (and a danger to food prices and production), but that's merely a short-term trend, a fad, and represents the worst of misguided political wheeling-dealing in D.C. Solar keeps plugging away-- long way to go-- but wind handily surpassed solar (EIA gives it 2.92% of the grid mix in 2001, see: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

The trends are changing. Rapidly. While we have fossils, here at the Peak, let's use them toward production of sustainable renewable systems, like solar collectors, modules, and wind turbines. Climate science says we've got to turn on a dime, essentially, or suffer massive, long-lasting consequences. Should we just "wait and see?" Not worth the risk. For a pretty solid (and fun!) risk assessment, I still love this science teacher's risk grid video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg

I genuinely believe humanity can survive with less energy per capita-- and WELL, with a high standard of living. Just redefined in reasonable terms. And distributed more equitably!
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
August 25, 2012
Now that was an interesting conversation.

We certainly could use allot more of the same in an open forum like say, oh I don't know???????? A political debate? Maybe as a substitute for another mindless sports show or discussing those people with the name Kardashian. No idea who or what they are but the name comes up allot in the so called main stream media.

I must say though that the prize in all of this discussion was hands down reBen. Reason? He or she was willing to owe up to he fact that most if not all of what we call current reality is more an illusion and in many cases more a nightmare.Cruel and scary ones at that. I suppose secondarily it was that he chose not to embrace the grand daddy of all illusions. That being Nuclear power.

Illusions have lead us to believe that, for example, it is sane for a 200lb man to drive an 8000lb jacked up,smoke belching $60,000 pickup (more an ugly battering ram with the ride and handling of an 18th century Conestoga wagon) simply to go to the store for a case of beer (mostly swill he is brain washed to believe tastes unlike a toilet flushing) that was brewed using vast quantities of fertilizers (natural gas) and grains (10 calories of fossil energy for each calorie of grain). Hyperbolic?

I suppose it would seem hyperbolic to someone who thinks the truck driver is in fact sane,along with accepting as sane thousands of other blatant examples of what is called a quality of life. When this type of truck and all the thousands of other mindless contraptions,gadgets and McMansions that consume energy dense fuels like there is no tomorrow are viewed as essential to a quality life then perhaps there is very little real value placed on this life.

Just saying.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 25, 2012
Coal was 48% of U.S. electrical generation fuel in 2010 (most recent data available from Lawrence Livermore National Lab) trending down but not 30%. Virtually all power plant production in the last 15 years has been natural gas, and gas is now 19% of electrical production and trending up. As fractions of the total 98 quadrillion BTUs of U.S. energy flow in 2010: Oil 37%, NG 26%, Coal 21%, Nuclear 8%, Ethanol 4%, Hydro 3% Wind 1%, Solar 0.2%. Ethanol, wind, and solar do not now and never will support any significant portion of high power-density operations such as mining, manufacturing, or transportation. The energy for the mining, manufacturing, and transportation operations required for making wind turbines and solar panels and the hydrogen and carbon and process energy required to make fertilizer and pesticides and herbicides and biorefineries comes from the 84% of our national primary energy sources that emit CO2. Solar and wind and biofuels begin with a huge CO2 debt to be paid. If they had a high EROI, they could dig themselves out of the hole faster, but they don't. Let's compare diesel fuel (8:1 EROI) to ethanol (1.25:1 EROI). To make 8 barrels of diesel requires 1 barrel of diesel. To make the 13 barrels of ethanol with the same energy as the 8 of diesel requires 8 barrels of diesel, with no net return in liquid fuel. The energy profit is in 2,700 lb of DDGS co-product and equals only 2 barrels of diesel energy. So we have to turn this crank 4 more times requiring a total of 32 barrels of diesel to get out our 8 barrels of net energy as DDGS and only that amount of ethanol to displace the diesel input. Corn ethanol accelerates our use of fossil fuels by a factor of 32. Net CO2 across this lifecycle is 2.7 times greater and generating this 8 barrels of DDGS energy requires 2.7M gallons of water (nearly 10,000 times more than to make the diesel). EROI is one inescapable reason why 'clean and green' is a myth.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 25, 2012
"Low EROI fuels generate more emissions per unit of energy."

This is always true? I hadn't heard that. Can you back that up? I thought emission would be related to fuel type. Sunlight included, even accounting for manufacture of, say, a solar thermal collector and associated equipment for a water heating system? Really?

Somehow, we have managed to avoid building ANY new coal-fired plants (I believe) for quite a long time (or very few, anyway). Coal-to-gas turbine conversion has rapidly changed King Coal's grid power share from 60% (1989ish) to nearing 30% now. Wind power is booming-- and if it goes offshore, it will boom further. Solar is booming, too, though how much of this represents short-term incentives is unclear. R&D into biomass, electric vehicles, power storage, etc., are all stronger than ever. We're changing the curve and the assumptions.

All this is just details, given the increasingly obvious fact that we cannot maintain the standard of living we're used to-- which standard now acknowledges inclusion of quality of life (i.e., health and environment)-- nor can India/China/whomever follow our curve, because we've begun to hit the system's limits. And if climate science is correct, that impact has a nearly immediate effect; i.e., we have no time to gradually turn the juggernaut. It's a sticky wicket, but arguing historical curves won't change it.

Well, this has been enjoyable for me. Thanks for your time in responding. I'm eager (if a bit worried) to see what the future brings!
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 25, 2012
China and India are not "just behind us." Averaging a new coal-fired power plant per week (China) is not a sign of maturing energy intensity. Thankfully, they are also the biggest renewables developer on the planet, and have an authoritarian government and culture that can deploy same faster than we seem interested in doing (though we've managed remarkable growth in wind power in the past several years). India perhaps holds more hope for a very different trajectory. Their recent record-setting power outages may steer their future even further in the sustainable direction than otherwise would have happened. Point is, they won't follow our energy intensity curve because they won't be willing to suffer the now-obvious costs. That's all to the good.

I never suggested solar was new. Not sure where you got that. Solar's development was always overshadowed by fossils. Who would pursue solar (and other renewables) when there's so much energy density readily available elsewhere? Only the niche players: forward-thinking visionaries and crackpot inventors and idealists. Even Edison, "inventor" of the most inefficient and iconic of modern world conveniences, the incandescent lamp, said, "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." Not that he was about to spend much time on it. Now that solar (inefficient as it currently is) is a viable player, at or near grid parity in many places (don't let's get into subsidies here!), and wind deployment has been so rapid that it's now a significant proportion of our grid power (from negligible 5 years ago), our energy intensity curve will enter new territory, tossing aside the old assumptions.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 25, 2012
No objections here to increasing efficiency. It is a positive and natural aspect of the progression of civilization. The energy intensity of the U.S. economy (amount of energy we consume per $ of GDP we produce) has been falling since WWII. We are following the trajectory of all economically developed nations in transitioning from an industrial-based to a services-based economy. China and India are following the same trajectory, just behind us, so their energy intensity is still rising toward it's peak. 400M people in India are yet to get their first taste of household electricity. However, increasing efficiency in consumption does not make low EROI fuels better than high EROI fuels, and low EROI fuels generate more emissions per unit of energy. Likewise, efficiency does not make low power-density fuels better than high power-density fuels, and low power-density increases environmental damage footprint. To reduce emissions and protect the environment, we need to consume our best fuels with our highest efficiency. As to your assertion that solar is something new, Nikola Tesla worked out the numbers in 1900. People have been working on harvesting sunlight and building batteries and electric cars for a century. The U.S. had electric cars before it had paved roads. The idea that we suddenly have to subsidize crash programs to develop new technology is ludicrous. Solar and Wind and Biofuels have always been in the background, not because of lack of innovation and effort, but because of their innate low EROI and extremely poor power densities. Economics rewards performance and these are niche players, not candidates for primary energy sources. No amount of national treasure poured out upon them can miraculously make the wind blow steadily or the sun shine 24/7 or corn grow at 200 bushel/acre without fertilizer. Thermodynamics is a harsh mistress.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 25, 2012
You keep suggesting solar, et al., is a fool's errand. It's simply an alternative and we're not used to thinking in equations where EROI is much lower than fossils' numbers, so it seems a little scary. Relax. It just means better use of consumption. Did the economy fall apart when we went from gas guzzlers to fuel-efficient foreign imports? Sure, the AMERICAN auto industry took a hit, but that's the nature of business: innovators meeting a need win; the entrenched old guard dies out (or gets bailed out!).

We'll redefine standard of living. We're doing it already. U.S. electricity consumption has dropped over the past few years. In part from the economic turndown, sure, but also (I suspect, but haven't proven to my own satisfaction) due to increases in energy efficiency and reductions in waste. But have you heard widespread stories of people living in darkness or unable to charge their precious cell phones? or of mass retaliation against elected officials due to power shortages? I haven't.

This is, I dearly hope, the dawn of the Age of Efficiency (conservation included). In postwar Americans' minds, that may seem at first like dearth can 70s-era cutbacks, but we'll soon see the truth in "less is more." Because we have to.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 25, 2012
Who's dismissing EROI? I don't think I was. Yeah, I pretty much get the concept of "you need to get more energy out than you put in" by a sufficient margin. STILL doesn't matter when the constraints of the system put the kibosh on the imbalance of the overall systemic equation. I'm saying instead that we can no longer rely on the wasteful (and dirty) use of such incredibly dense energy sources at projected world-development rates. We just can't. We're hitting limits we know we can't afford to exceed. If we do, we relegate ourselves to a world of accelerating ecological collapse-- ultimately unsustainable, and at some point the system collapses-- and status quo "civilization" along with it. So there WILL be change. We can only choose (to an increasingly limited extent) HOW: hard or catastrophic change. I know which one I'll pick!

I don't think Jevons's 19th century paradox takes into account the end game; it simply identifies phenomena at the beginning of a consumptive trend. Similarly, the conclusions of "modern economists" (cited in the wikipedia article on same) are observing beginnings and not necessarily accounting for adaptive behavior emerging under changing circumstances; i.e., the end game of a given resource (or set of resources). Jevons saw what happened when coal-fired steam engines were new and sparked the industrial revolution. We're now faced with a situation where we can directly see (and now, finally, ring up economic accounting for) the deleterious effects of excessive fossil use. This knowledge creates a feedback that actually does affect the markets in ways not limited to accelerated consumption. I think Jevons is only a part of the whole story. But what do I know? I'm not an economist, just a guy who seeks to steer the ship away from the (melting!) iceberg. I know I'm not alone.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 24, 2012
EROI cannot be dismissed. It is absolutely fundamental. Civilization is a large living organism and primary energy EROI is tantamount to the nutritional value of its food. If it takes all the energy in the food to digest the food and forage for new food, then it is of no net benefit and the organism enters catabolism and eats into its own body till it dies. If the food is marginally positive in EROI, the organism may just barely survive at a minimal metabolic rate. Only if the food has high EROI will the organism have the ability to perform the higher-order functions of maintaining body mass, repairing damage, building defenses (immunities), maturing (increasing in complexity & technology), reproduction, and lastly, growth. Dynamic Energy Budget (DEB) theory is very sophisticated approach to analyzing life in terms of energy and thermodynamics. Primary energy is not a field for uneducated politicians to make ham fisted adjustments based on gut feelings or feel-good dreams (or cronyism and campaign contributions). It is survival of the fittest and death of the foolish. If we roll back U.S. EROI, it means rolling back economic development and modern conveniences and luxuries and our economic competitiveness with nations that use higher EROI primary energy. Among the first things to go will be air travel for the average citizen and the fraction of meat in our diet. Increasing efficiency in consumption is absolutely a virtue that should be pursued, but in practice, it raises the standard of living rather than reducing the demand for energy (see Jevons' Paradox). Any government that truly rolls back the standard of living of its citizens will not be in power long. (Recommend Kooijman, Dynamic Energy and Mass Budgets in Biological Systems. Cambridge University Press, 2000 ).
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 24, 2012
I think it's a myth that there's some Moore's Law-esque lockstep relationship between standard and living and energy consumption rates. That thinking just comes from plotting historical curves and represents no theoretical basis for assuming a cause-and-effect connection. We choose energy waste simply because there was so much energy available during fossil-industrialization that we thought it infinite-- and because we externalized the pesky negatives like air, soil, water, health, and even safety.

We'll now see a change in the relationship between energy consumption and standard of living. India and China will be / are now proof of that new relationship. It's a changing curve, and the energy is dropping while the standard of living continues to rise.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 24, 2012
Like I said, fossils' energy density is in a class by itself. Our "need" for higher EROI isn't. It's merely a misperception that we can't enjoy a high standard of living without the present energy waste we now so profligately engage in. Roman lifestyle arguably exceeded their EROI. We're heading to the same end, but the backstop in our case isn't merely access to slave labor or farm animals or even arable land; it's the carrying capacity of the planet (at a quality of life that we have been able to enjoy in developed nations, at least).

We will live within the planet's means-- hard way or disastrous way, we will ultimately have to do so. But to pooh-pooh solar energy is just plain silly. Since it's the most abundant, easily accessible energy available (contrasting with subsurface energy), we WILL be using it, in ever-increasing amounts. And anyway, PV/CPV are a drop in the bucket compared to direct thermal energy (at present efficiencies).

The amount of waste we claim is "necessary" to our standard of living is phenomenal and absurd. We just went that route (profligacy) because it was so easy to do so, given the energy density of fossil fuels. I suggest we prioritize uses of fossil energies toward systemic conversion of our primary energy sources toward renewables-- of all types (diversity is the biosphere's key to life's abundance; it should be ours). Yes, this is a huge, long-term project. But what choice would you say we have? Nuclear? Presently available designs are themselves extremely carbon-intensive in construction. Perhaps thorium reactors or whathaveyou offer some future hope. But job number one should be to pursue the easiest, cheapest, most cost-effective energy source on the planet: conservation and efficiency.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 24, 2012
Changing primary energy is not a simple switch from a gasoline car to an electric car. It is the underlying energy for the whole of civilization and must satisfy certain minimum thresholds to support a given standard of living. Today's primary energy sources must deliver very high power density for all our mobile vehicles as well as for operations such as smelting and forging steel, melting silica into glass and computer chip wafers, and powering water heaters and air conditioners. Furthermore, our primary energy must have a high enough energy return on investment (EROI) that each unit of energy can replace itself many times over from whatever source it comes. Modern civilization requires a 6:1 or better EROI. The Roman civilization at its peak achieved 1.8:1 with large-scale agriculture feeding slaves and oxen. Solar and wind have miniscule power densities and poor EROI. Imagine how many solar panels spread out over how much area it would take to collect enough energy to mine the bauxite and the silica and the doping minerals and smelt the aluminum and melt the glass to make one solar panel. Imagine the same for wind turbines and their rare earth magnets and their cement foundations and miles of cableways and access roads. Corn ethanol has an EROI of 1.25:1 --worse than Rome. Solar and wind and biomass are low-energy density, low EROI, variable output energy sources that are only suitable for niche applications. We are only making them work right now by depleting our national treasury and accelerating our use of petroleum to subsidize their manufacture and power their backup generators. None can ever be a primary energy source for modern civilization. If oil goes away sooner because we wastefully accelerated our use of it subsidizing these parasites while neglecting to develop a real alternative such as nuclear, we not only run out of primary energy, we starve, because petroleum is the source of all our artificial fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides.
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
August 24, 2012
Comparing renewables against fossil will ALWAYS come up short, incentives be damned. It's an invalid comparison simply due to the unbelievably dense energy content of the fossils. The Big Picture (the perspective that ultimately matters most) must include HOW we use energy: efficiency. We can and should convert to renewable, non-fossil sources for reasons that have nothing to do with markets and profits. They are numerous and compelling and increasing in priority. It doesn't even matter how much it costs, in the long run. Rather, it does, but the costs that truly matter are all presently externalized, so SEEM unimportant. We can't continue that illusion for long.
Cliff Claven
Cliff Claven
August 24, 2012
"Cost and price in the PV industry have only a glancing relationship to each other, that is, there is only occasionally a relationship between the two." That is precisely because of huge subsidies and renewable energy credit gimmicks and tax tricks like accelerated depreciation and displacing costs to public utilities and their customers through guaranteed favorable rates, etc. The USAF solar farm at Nellis Air Force Base is a perfect example--a $100M solar project that saves $1M a year in utility costs. A first-grader can see the payback is 100 years and the equipment will not last beyond 25. Yet, it was built with "complex financing" that suckered both the federal taxpayers for the upfront wad of cash and saddled the regular Nevada Power customers with a long-term rate hike to cost-share in this folly. The resulting system provides zero energy security improvement for the base because it can't be used during a power outage because they couldn't afford to put in the switches to isolate it from the grid and protect utility linemen from backfed current. Solar power in the U.S. is currently subsidized at $59.60 for the same energy output as is contained in a barrel of diesel, and diesel is subsidized at 27 cents per barrel. Let's cut all the subsidies. We have a $16T debt and we can't afford to spend money trying to make winners out of losers. If solar can't make it on its own without wheelbarrows full of upfront "stimulus" money for each customer, than it is not ready for prime time and is only prolonging our recession. (Sources: 1. Direct Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy in Fiscal Year 2010. Energy Information Agency, July 2011. http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/ ; 2. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. 'Estimated U.S Energy Use in 2010: ~98.0 Quads.' Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, 2011).
Dimitar Mirchev
Dimitar Mirchev
August 22, 2012
A new term is coined - "Socket parity" - when electricity from the roof is cheaper than the electricity from the grid. Here is a table:

https://bitly.com/LrRWPW

That calculates how much money one will save if she or he uses electricity from the roof instead of buying it from the grid given the electricity prices and the solar radiation (in KWh/KWp per year). Than one can calculate how many year will take to pay off the roof PV system given the saved money per year and the installation cost. IF(!!!) the owner can use all the electricity produced from the PV system (for the sake of simplicity I assumed there is no net mettering).

Now that the installation cost in Germany is 1702 euro/KWp or less:

http://www.solarwirtschaft.de/preisindex

and price of electricity there is above 27 eurocents and solar radiation of around 850 KWh/KWp per year you can break even in just 7 years.

Calculate this for your own location.

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Paula Mints

Paula Mints

All Solar, All of the time -- I started my solar market research career with Strategies Unlimited in 1998, moved to Navigant in 2005 and am now I am excited to announce the founding of a new company, Paula Mints Solar PV Market Research....
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