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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Staying Alive: Could Thin-film Manufacturers Come Out Ahead in the PV Wars? Part 1

As the solar PV market goes through its trials and tribulations, thin-film manufacturers could be poised to take on more market share.

Jennifer Runyon, Managing Editor, RenewableEnergyWorld.com
June 04, 2012  |  52 Comments

In the solar electricity market, capitulation, consolidation and contraction are the buzzwords of the day. Today, all solar PV manufacturers face an over-supplied and underfunded PV market. The oversupply and drop in subsidy markets across Europe and the U.S. has forced crystalline silicon manufacturers to sell their PV panels below manufacturing costs or risk losing all market-share. As the weeks tick by, major manufacturers, one after another, are going under or announcing major scaling back of their operations. Thin film solar panel manufacturers have not been able to stay out of the fray, with many of them struggling to keep up with the falling panel cost and oversupply of panels on the market.

MJ Shiao, who authored a comprehensive 322-page report entitled, “THIN FILM 2012–2016: Technologies, Markets and Strategies for Survival” said that the industry may be dying, but it isn’t dead yet.  He pointed out “venture capital investment into thin film in Q4 2011 and Q1 2012 combined to reach nearly $300 million.”

Shiao also pointed to big announcements from the key players in the industry that indicate even as the industry struggles, it has big plans for the future.

Thin-Film Advantages over Crystalline PV

Crystalline PV has the cost advantage right now with slightly more efficient panels selling for below one dollar per watt. But thin-film works better in low light conditions and in hot environments, which means that in certain sun drenched areas of the world, thin-film turns out to have a lower levelized cost of energy (LCOE). The LCOE is the final cost to produce a kilowatt-hour of solar power and deliver it to the grid. So while a crystalline silicon PV panel may have a higher efficiency, meaning that it can convert more sunlight to power when the sun is shining, that same crystalline panel will produce energy for a shorter amount of time during the course of any given day.  And that same panel will experience greater degradation of power in hot environments than the thin-film panel, according to all of the thin-film experts interviewed for this article.

Couple the fact that thin-film has a lower LCOE in hot environments with the fact that the solar market is shifting towards more remote, unsubsidized markets that already experience high electricity prices and it becomes clear that thin-film has a chance at taking on more market share in the future.

Key Players in the Industry

Thin-film solar panels are created through three different manufacturing techniques that use different core components: amorphous silicon (a-Si), cadmium telluride (CdTe) or copper indium gallium diselenide (CIGS) and copper indium sulfur/selenide (CIS).

We checked in with makers of all three manufacturing types of thin-films to hear their thoughts about the future of thin-film PV and the future of their technologies.  All three have very big expansion plans.  See the image below for a list of the top suppliers by production:

 

Oerlikon Solar – Makers of Manufacturing Equipment for a-Si Panels

The only small silver lining to the very low solar power panel costs, according to Chris O’Brien, Head of Market Development at Oerlikon Solar, recently acquired by Tokyo Electron (TEL), is that low module prices are driving increased demand for solar power in general. 

He points to markets in the Middle East, Africa and India as areas where there is a growing interest in solar PV.  Whereas PV projects in those regions used to be in the sub-megawatt range, he said they are now coming in in the multi-megawatt range.  This is a trend that many in the industry expect to continue.

O’Brien also said that pricing will remain low and only those manufactures that can innovate enough to bring down costs will be able to compete.

 “All in solar bids in California are coming in in the range of nine cents per kilowatt-hour.  I think what that reflects is not just the current low prices but an expectation that the price will continue to go down. In that case the RAM [renewable auction mechanism] was for deliveries in 2016.”

Oerlikon, which manufacturers the equipment to build amorphous silicon (a-Si) thin film module manufacturing plants, has seen a drop in equipment upgrades in 2012.  “Most estimates are that the investment this year will be down by more than 50 percent compared to last year,” O’Brien said.

O’Brien explained that in 2010 and 2011 manufacturers expanded aggressively, at what have turned out to be unsustainable rates. He called it a manufacturing equipment bubble. “A number of aspiring manufacturers wanted to copy the success of the 2009 emerging market leaders in China, like Suntech, Trina, Yingli,” he said.  Those tier 1 manufacturers successfully expanded to 2 GW of manufacturing capacity in 2009 and others wanted that success, he said.  What resulted was a glut of panels on the market.  Today, many of those manufacturers who aggressively expanded are now left sorely in debt, stuck with equipment that might not be sellable in the near future. 

“I expect there might be some buyer’s remorse,” said O’Brien.

Oerlikon is waiting for the next manufacturing equipment investment cycle to begin and O’Brien expects that to happen by the end of 2012. “I think the market is catching up to the investment that was made in 2010, 2011,” he said.

“What will be different for the next investment cycle,” he said, “is that the cost requirement will be much lower.” Obrien said he expects that manufacturers will need to diversify in order to stay afloat, which might mean that some crystalline silicon manufacturers will differentiate their lines. 

“I don’t expect that PV module prices will increase,” he said. “So during the next investment cycle, the cost requirement will be much lower.”

He continued: “The next investment cycle will be shaped by what technologies can provide a sustainable business model at PV module prices that are at or below today’s prices.”

O’Brien said that Oerlikon can deliver a 140-MW manufacturing line that will produce 10.8 percent efficient panels at $0.50 per watt as long as it is running at full capacity. He looks forward to working with Tokyo Electron (TEL) to further improve the line.  In early March Oerlikon announced that it was being sold to TEL, a leading semiconductor equipment supplier from Japan.

a-Si thin-film manufacturers producing panels with Oerlikon equipment include Astronergy, Auria, Baoding Tianwei, Bosch Solar Energy, Gadir Solar, HelioSphera, Inventux Technologies AG, Schott Solar, Pramac and Sun Well Solar. In addition to these players, Sharp Solar has an a-Si thin-film line.

A chart showing all the players in the thin-film solar equipment manufacturing business is above. It comes courtesy of GTM Research’s “THIN FILM 2012–2016: Technologies, Markets and Strategies for Survival.”

In Part 2, we’ll talk with First Solar and Solar Frontier and take a look at the overall industry outlook for thin-film solar technology.

52 Comments

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Kim Hanna
Kim Hanna
June 18, 2012
This is an off-topic discussion.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 18, 2012
DrAlexC, Sure! You dont get an airtight seal with a adhesive tabbed shingle. You can take that to the bank! Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 18, 2012
Dan, you keep trying to sell folks here, go right ahead. And a shigled roof becioomes "continuous" as soon as the glue strips under each tab are melted by the sun and stick all tabs down, as required by codes. But even the physics related to your tiles isn't good, because both their coloring and shape increase solar absorption & IR production. Whatever roofing you're selling isn't as good for GHG absorption as the Florida-Approved white roofs or painted bitumen flat roofs on commercial structures. So why bother people here further? You claimed you wanted email exchange, let's do it!
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, My point is, if you paint a shingle roof you make it a continuos system. It was designed to be discontinuos. Painting shingles is forbidden in the entire State of Florida for good reason although you may cry bloody murder and blame it on the ferocious Asphalt Shingle Lobby here in our great State! The strongest reason is hurricane resistance and I dont need a Chemist to prove that! They should ban all asphalt shingles as they are not a sustainable choice. There are other reasons! I gave you some criticism later on after you got a couple of shots about me being a salesman of sorts or that I was not educated to speak on a scienticic or engineering level. For Hybrid Retro-Fits over existing asphalt shingles we would install a polypropylene interply as an anchor sheet for an adhesive set system. We would maintain the design integrity of the shingle roof so that the entire system may breathe and create a air permeable system down to the original deck. The above is roofing 101... Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Well then you should accept the fact that thin film reflectivity is the same as a terracotta roof tile. You should take comfort in the fact most thin film is installed over a beautiful white TPO that doesnt need paint...EVER! Since I'm in the terracotta business I take compfort in vegetation on a roof because its aesthetic and provides more benefits to the environment than anything else. We integrate solar thin film, solar thermal and vegetative options. And now we can do it for people of modest means so as to get a 30% federal tax credit over your whole investment. Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2012
Arg, just for completeness, remember your objecting to "condescending"? Here's what you just wrote... "The video I saw you in was so amateur and those leading questions were so obvious, I would love to know the name of your Paint Saleman Masters! He,he,he." So, the video was indeed amateur for local cable. The interviewer determined the questions, just as you attempt to above. And there's no "paint salesman". What, on earth by the way, is "he, he he". Are you used to getting away with odd statements with that? Finally, you say: "We do not make a living promoting asphalt and petroleum products" -- I was only talking about painting those, not painting tiles. So what's you have no point, but seem desperate to promote your business.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2012
Not arguing with your products Arg, just your scientific & engineering misunderstandings. And you have just a few more words above off topic than I. ;] Be happy to exchange emails.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, My e-mail is arguelles67@aol.com and by all means should you like to continue I'm more than happy to oblige! Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Lets stick to the topic: "Staying Alive: Could Thin-film Manufacturers Come Out Ahead in the PV Wars? Part 1" Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, I have nothing to hide. Our products are natural earthware and we have made significant breakthroughs. The business is a family one, that my father started long ago, he himself is an Engineer with a Major in Building Construction. The lot of us are Architects or Engineers. Thats why I take what you say with a grain of salt. You still have not provided your credentials nor that of your Chemist buddy. We do not make a living promoting asphalt and petroleum products. If you would have perused the links you would know this by now. You seem bent on just arguing for no reason, I do it because its my namesake! He,he,he. I bet you if I spent enough time I could link you with some financial motivation for the paint argument. The video I saw you in was so amateur and those leading questions were so obvious, I would love to know the name of your Paint Saleman Masters! He,he,he... Dan Ps. We see alot of science and engineering in testing roof materials in the last 20 years. I doubt seriously you can match the experience from the lack of references you give.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2012
Arg, we see why you're \spending so much time here trying to discredit physics and engineering facts... "Artezanos Inc. is a third generation family owned and operated business dedicated to the production of high quality traditional handmade clay products & the development of innovative roofing products." Yes, your credibility just took a dive. So you sell tile roofs for expensive homes, and you can even put some plants in the tile troughs. Great! Where it rains and the tiles were reflective. Buyt the tiles your company shows aren't particularly reflective, so your point is? As for composite shingles, or bitumen roofing, they're all compatible with petroleum-based paints, including aluminized, as used on mobile homes, farm buildings, rail cars, and so on. You really want people to believe you, with certain products to sell, are more credible than someone with professional engineering & physics experience? You really want to claim more expertize than the Calif. Energy Commission, Lawrence Berkeley Labs, the International Heat Island Group? Really? It's interesting to us how long and labored the path has been to reveal your true business interests here.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Now I dont like shingles on bit cause its a scam, kind of like you except according to you, you dont make money and that somehow means that you are impartial. At least thats what we are supposed to assume.. Shingles before they start to curl make an excellent base roof for a Hybrid Roof Tile System for many reasons. One does not need to include a fire barrier over the shingles because they already achieve a class "A" fire rating. This is important because if you wish to use solar you must address the fire barrier because most solar is Class "C" fire rated. If you feel 20-30 years is good for painting shingles, try a hybrid barrel tile system for a life cycle of over 100 years. This is an energy efficient system that is low energy embodiment,affordable and aesthetic...But you engineers want to make everything look like crap! He,he,he. I can make them look timeless and beat the living crap out of your hurricane bunker.... We can also integrate solar thin film rather economically since it is the topic we should be hashing out here.....We've been off topic here.. Dan Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Oh, so I like shingles now is it? Here is your proof how uninformed you really are. Please take the time and educate youself instead of spending your valuable time trying to out maneauver people that are actually on your side! Shingle Retro-Fit: http://www.artezanos.com/green_universal_hybrid_roof_tile_system.html Proposed Use of Shingle retro-fit: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/www.artezanossustainableretrofit.com Hybrid Green Roof Retro-fit: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/presentation_hybrid_green_roof_tile_retro-fit T.I.P.V. Hybrid Green Roof System: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/tileintegratedphotovoltaicstipv Hybrid Brochure: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/brochure_4page.sep29 Artezanos Hybrid Power Point: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/artezanos_hybrid Do you think I have a little credibility? Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Sorry the "World is Round" ,please read the facts below. There is a reason the first letters of my last name are A-R-G-U-E.... http://www.ashireporter.org/articles/articles.aspx?id=1920 http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/business/realestate/housekeys/blog/2011/01/homeowners_with_leaky_roofs_bl.html
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2012
Dan, try "patronizing" when you look back then. You presist in avoiding the engineering fact that composite shuingles and petroleum-based paints are fully compatible, because you're selling shingles that need to bbe replaced more often if they're not painted to be reflective. As for you odd challenge for insurance consulting or whatever you imagine to be non-scientific evidence that can counter actual science & engineering, there's no point. You want to sell shingles and as often as possible Anything that you don't sell that makes shingles last longer you're against, which also makes you against the environment, by: a) consuming more petroleum feedstocks per year per house for shingles, b) dumping more tons of used shingles per year, and c) adding to global warming by a few hundred kWHr/day per house you sell shingles for. Facts don't seem to concern you, so why do you write so much?
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexC, Below are some links I highly recommend that you and your chemist buddy read. I selected them with a full spectrum of opinions of both sides of the argument. Please read them, they are called facts. White paint is not a magical cure-all for all roofs. To grasp this, you would need to understand roofing. I wouldnt expect you to understand any more than you would expect an extra-terrestrial to salute an ant! http://www.ashireporter.org/articles/articles.aspx?id=1920 http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/business/realestate/housekeys/blog/2011/01/homeowners_with_leaky_roofs_bl.html http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-12-31/business/fl-fpl-roofing-20101229_1_shingle-roofs-fpl-customers-contractors http://www.durabilityanddesign.com/news/?fuseaction=view&id=4899 Dan
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 17, 2012
DrAlexc, Sorry, couldnt see where I was "condescending" to you in the beginning of our conversation. If you took it that way, it was unintentional. As I said before, I'm not knocking painting flat roofs white. I was just opposed to painting asphalt shingles period. I was never arguing the merits of reflectivity of white paint. And you continue your baseless arguements to somehow substantiate painting of shingles with heresay supposedly validated by unnamed chemists. But you cant give me any facts cause its just way over my head! Oh brother you are a character! I guess we should go along with what you say especially considering you will not give facts and credentials to support them. Again you wish to belittle my endeavors because I "Sell Roofing".....Well Mr Engineer, show me one engineering report from your firm to an Authority Having Jusrisdition or and Insured or Insrance Company stateing that Painting Asphalt Shingles will not affect the performance in a negative way. Have you ever been required since you make youself out to be such an expert? Please enlighten us DrAlexC!! Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2012
So Dan, go back and read your first comments to me, if you want "condescending". And indeed, any physicist or engineer can explain why reflectivity of structures is so important. A chemist can explain why asphaltic shingles aren't threatened by petroleum-based coverings. I don't expect you to understand, just as your doctor doesn't expect you to understand what he/she prescribes for you. But, you apparently expect us to go along with what you say, knowing that you're selling roofing.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 16, 2012
DrAlexC, I'm sorry I didnt have a chance to respond to your rather condescending comments. You have offered no facts for painting shigle roofs and how your engineering qualifications whatever they may be, actually have any relevance on the subject. You presume because I make my living in marketing sustainable roofing that I cant be as honest as an Engineer that refuses to offer his curriculum vitae to validate his rather unsubstantiated claims of roof painting asphalt shingles? Perhaps we should believe every Engineer just because of a degree regardless of what Engineering degree he may have. Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 13, 2012
Dan, your paranoia is showing. You received no personal attacks from me, only scientific advice that you choose to ignore because you're selling roofs! I'm selling nothing but honesty. You want a degree and engineering-experience contest, try it. ;]
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 12, 2012
DrAlexC, Its easy to try and label one in an honest conversation when you yourself fail to deliver your credentials or any support for your claims. You can try to discredit me all you want. I can prove myself a scientist and inventor, can you? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7513084.pdf http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7870700.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110209421.pdf I also can prove Ive passed a Declatory Statement from the State Attorneys Office to promote the installation of solar integrated "hybrid" roofing by less expensive and more appropriate roofing professionals than more expensive electricians or solar contractors. See link: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/cilb/documents/ds_2011-060.pdf Or have you passed local ordinances in the municiple building code like I have? See link: http://www.miamishoresvillage.com/Clerk/Recent_Council_Meeting_Minutes/02-07-12MIN.htm Or maybe you have been in the media as much as I have? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va4tNaTxius I would like you to please share with us what have you done besides squaq about painting shingle roofs white and criticize other's endeavors of soley being financially motivated at the expense of our environment. I challenge you! For real. I too detest poseurs and especially those who try and point the finger. My degree is in Architecture since you like to wave around that you are and Engineer. My father had two degrees in Engineering and I learned from experience an Engineer knows a great deal about very little. You are the first one I have encountered to have all the answers for roofing! (Painting Asphalt Shingles) Ha!Ha!Ha! If you are sincere, then lay off the personal attacks on my credibility.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2012
"HE, he, he" Dan. You're really selling hard aren't you. This difference is I've no $ to make off this. I'm simply fulfilling my responsibility as scientist & engineer to point out hype & misinformation when it's being pushed by someone in the biz. Yes, 20 years ois nothing for a good asphaltic roof, but 50 years is nothing for one that's been made reflective. That's the rub for you, eh? Missed sales opportunity, regardless of the environmental burden your activity creates. So keep talking as if you know something a real engineer doesn't, whatever your contractor # is, Dan. Your strained words make clear what you're selling. Hope your doctor isn't 'selling' as you are. ;]
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 12, 2012
DrAlexC, For the last 20 years we catered to Historical Preservation and high end coastal estate homes. This is a far cry from the "Asphalt Shingle Painting" market. 20 years out of a painted shingle roof is nothing! The benefit does not outweigh the potential consequence. You could use a metal roof retro-fit or a Hybrid Tile Retro-fit over your existing shingles and extend the life substantially. Barrel tile roofs are known to last longer than 100 years. You seem hell bent on making the case for painting shingles but you lack the qualifications to qualify your expertise. Please fill us in on how much you know about roofing Big Guy. Our products are designed to last over 100 years. (Thats much more than paint)..See link: http://www.artezanos.com/Artezanos_Brochure.pdf So? "Painting with aluminized petroleum-based materials (like Henry 555)" Is this the brand of paint you represent? Tell the truth.....He,he,he Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2012
There you go, Dan, some honesty: "20 years of roof manufacturing experience". So we all now know you sell roofs and you'd not like anything a homeowner can do to make their roof last longer. Got it. Your comments illustrate the problem vested interests present to us all.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 12, 2012
DrAlexC, Now thats not very polite! I have no idea what a "saklesman" is? but now that you mention it, after one watches your video they might feel you are a saleman of white paint. These actions taken by the Miami Dade County Board of Rules and Appeals, against the "painting of shingles" have been scrutinized by more engineers than you can shake a stick at. Furthermore, they are invididuals in pursuit of sustainable solutions for roofing none of which are "painting shingles" or "painting all roofs white". I prefer the landfill not to see premature shingle demolition just as much as I prefer not to cringe at the next sighting of a painted asphalt shingle roof. The truth is, I would not what individuals to read this forum and walkaway with the notion that there will be no detrimental effect to the wood structure from painting shingle roofs. Your statement: "explain why the roofs on our home and several others that were painted over 20 years ago are as good as they were then and may never need the shingling replaced." Is not very "scientific" as you do not appear qualified to determine any detriment to those roofs in 20 years. You have admitted earlier that you never had heard of such a thing. I design sustainable high performance Hybrid Roof Systems that are affordable, long lasting , and aesthetic. As an engineer, you should appretiate the many truly green options we can put on the same residential roof plane. All of which can be retro-fit over existing asphalt shingles and extend their longevity. If you take the time to review this link, many of your questions can be put to rest: http://issuu.com/artezanos/docs/artezanos_hybrid To put the "cherry on the cake" I think my 20 years of roof manufacturing experience & Florida Roofing Certification ccc 54771 can pretty much sum it up for you. I like what you are trying to do but there are better ways to do it. Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2012
So, Dan, you're a saklesman! "No Asphalt Shingle Manufacturer will Warranty "painting over shingles". This action is detrimental to the design of the asphalt shingle and that of the wood in the structure" Speaking as an engineer, the above quote is fals and a way fro the roofing industry to simply sell more product, more often, all the while wasting $, resources, landfill space and adding to environmental problems. If it were true, that using the same chemistry for painting composite shingles were detrimental, then explain why the roofs on our home and several others that were painted over 20 years ago are as good as they were then and may never need the shingling replaced. C'mon Dan, give us the science. You claim "This is a forum to discuss and hash out differences to create an awareness", so you should be ready for facts. So Dan, what are you selling?
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 12, 2012
DrAlexC, This is a forum to discuss and hash out differences to create an awareness for one to draw their own conclusions. Fact: No Asphalt Shingle Manufacturer will Warranty "painting over shingles". This action is detrimental to the design of the asphalt shingle and that of the wood in the structure. Again, Asphalt Shingles need to be ventilated. We are not talking about eave vents here or attic vents. Asphalt shingles themselves were designed to be air permeable systems Mr. Engineer. It is possible this action is more noticeable in hot & humid climates. California also allows the especially tolerant of practice of circumventing demolition for new roofing in favor of stacking new asphalt roofing over the old. This practice also creates havoc because issues of wood replacement to the deck are virtually never dealt with. But one does save a little up front money in the short run! This would never be allowed in the entire State of Florida and definitly not the Hurricane High Velocity Wind Zone in Miami Dade County. Here we have a Product Control Division that over sees all products related to construction and they are all scrutinized for the safety of homeowners. The Miami Dade County Approval Process is the most stringent of its kind in the entire World. Guess what? They will tell you the exact same thing I base as fact. A whole mess of Engineers that are very familiar with roofing practices and have "touched white roofs" came to this conclusion. Dr Chu and the Department of Energy have made some mistakes. Among them is the support for companies who wish to create "Solar Shingles". I think I would rather hear about you painting them to be honest! He,he,he. As Americans, we need some game changing, destabilizing technology. It starts with education. There is no reason plants cant occupy most areas you wish to paint white. Unless of course you work for the "Painting Roofs White Lobby".... I would like simply to educate. Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2012
Dan, no one is suggesting unventilated roof decks. Code here requires that. Painting with aluminized petroleum-based materials (like Henry 555) makes the roof reflective, makes it last at least twice as long, saving several tons of roofing waste to be bought or thrown away, saves about $1000/year per home, and it makes the interior cooler. I must say, I've never heard what you say re the wood underneath. White or aluminized roofs have been around for many decades, especially in farm buildings. And your bias: "an ugly painted shingle roof looks like an abortion in every case" is your opinion, for which I suggested planting shade trees. As for: "I must say it is the pinnacle of roofing maintenance ingnorance" -- we have many in Calif. that have saved their owners both in roofing costs and utility costs. You appear to be "ignorant" of the engineering & building realities, for whatever reason. And I've no idea why you want others to follow in that mistaken path.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 11, 2012
DrAlexC, I'm not partial to dark roofs nor am I biased against white roofs. I'm certainly not uniformed. Those aerial pics look identical to roofs we see here in Miami. I did not see a significant difference. Most roofs in the picture look like white modified bitumen roofs and not painted ones. How would you know if your painted asphalt shingle roof did not suffer when you cant see the condition of the wood directly underneath the existing painted asphalt shingles? This is detrimental. Asphalt shingles were meant to be on a vetliated deck and certainly not a sealed one. This is your biggest flaw in your thinking however for flat roofs you are ok.... Asphalt shingle roofs are roughly 85% of the market and they are made from two different types of petroleum. Even those new shingles that cooler lose their albedo in a couple of years. Its a joke! Asphalt shingles are a serious problem for landfills. Longevity obtained from painted shingles will cost you greatly in terms of decking and wood beam replacement. Not to mention an ugly painted shingle roof looks like an abortion in every case. I must say it is the pinnacle of roofing maintenance ingnorance. You can simply retrofit your existing shingle roof with a white clay tile system because a simple painted white shingle roof can still heat up your house as you try and save the environment. Integrate solar and you can get a 30% federal tax credit for the entire improvement until December 31, 2016... Dan ps. Just Say No To Painted Shingles! He,he,he
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2012
Dan, the point of reflective roofing isn't "considerable energy savings". It's eliminating the down-conversion of visible light frequencies to infrared (IR) which are then reradiated upward to be absorbed by greenhouses gasses GHGs). Water vapor, which you have lots of in FL, is the dominant GHG on earth, with CO2 only accounting for about 16% of atmospheric warming. As to you bias against white roofs, it's uninformed. Calif. AB32, Title 24 has long required new business bldgs, or re-roofed business buildings to have reflective and insulated roofs. It's not yet required for residences, but likely will be. Florida, of all places would benefit, as you can surely see when you fly over Miami -- look down at the businesses near the airport, and businesses around the main highways near downtown -- looks just like Calif! Try Google Earth! So as an engineer, I'll explain again that the benefit of living roofs is fine, but requires far more maintenance than simply painting composite shingles with aluminized paint -- ours here were painted 20 years ago and are fine, as are all the houses whose owners saw the reason for doing it and have enjoyed the results ever since, including saving ~$1000/year on avoided re=roofing costs. I'm all for shade trees, and all for reflectivity on structures too, just as the farmers in our cast country have been for decades. If you want a dark roof, plant trees to shade it.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 11, 2012
DrAlexC, I took the time and read your links that you provided. I can see you mean well and white roofs for cool roofing is a no brainer for some situations (on the aerial pics those cities in California were lacking trees). All the math from the links you provided actually makes a greater case for vegetating roofs instead of painting them because this is a more permanent natural solution for flat roofs. The first link indicated that painting shingle roofs was appropriate and would yield considerable energy savings. This assumption although seemingly obvious to the layperson is actually a mortal mistake in roofing choice, dratically decreasing the life cycle of the roof. Any painted roof must be maintained and can actually turn black or dark in a very short period of time due to many variables. I will not down play your noble attempts to educate others in cool roofing via painting white roofs but as you mentioned earlier solarizing monolithic areas of dark colored solar is not the only solution I can tell you with utmost confidence that painting roofs white isnt either. A combination of sustainable technologies in roofing to leverage the best results is what is needed. Most people in this business have a tendency to see only one side of things as the one size fits all solution. If there ever was one it would be covering up this scarred Earth with its original surface of flora. White roofs to me are the Home Depot solution! He,he,he.... Also, just for fun....I have touched many "dark roofs". I can promise you I know more about sustainable roofing than most. By the way painting roof shingles here in Miami Dade County is strictly prohibited because of the very serious issues I hinted about... Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2012
"Have I ever touched a white roof in the sun?" -- now that's fiunny! http://keenforgreen.com/node/16316 Have you ever tried to touch a dark one?! The issue for structures is reflectivity. If you can't have a reflective roof, plant a shade tree (or your living roof. A shade tree is a 50kW cooling machine. A 100 sq meter roof in sunlight is a 60kW heating machine. Since trees grow naturally and roofs don't, and since >2% of all Earth's land is now covered with human structures, reflectivity is a big issue... www.care2.com/causes/how-painting-roofs-white-can-help-turn-off-the-world-for-a-year.html http://climatedesk.org/2012/06/interactive-new-yorks-roofscape-gets-climate-makeover/ www.ccap.org/green_infrastructure.html http://blip.tv/file/4722053/ (Alex on roofs) http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/new-ucla-school-of-law-report-217807.aspx www.climatechange.ca.gov/events/2008_conference/presentations/2008-09-09/Hashem_Akbari.pdf
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 11, 2012
DrAlexC, Of course vegetation is the best solution! Have you ever touched a white roof in the sun? It still gets very hot! A white roof is not like a vegetative roof or anything close to it. Solar Reflective Index # is "green washing" because you pay to show what a product can do before it ages just to get a leg on the competition......like whats on this link on the last page: http://www.miamidade.gov/building/library/productcontrol/noa/11032902.pdf Asphalt roads and concrete buildings add more to the problem so its not just dark colored roofs. Plants counter-act the best because white roofs in the beggining cant do what plants CAN and white roofs also turn dark with age. Higher solar efficiency while nice, is not a deal breaker when used to offset other building materials that are not any better for the Urban Heat Island Effect. Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2012
Sure, Arguelles, a green roof is fine --I've a friend who does that in China. But the fact remains that normal roofing is a significant problem for unnatural GHG excitation, and as the CEC published some years back, just improving roof reflectivity by 40% worldwide would be equivalent to not driving any fuelled vehicle on earth for a decade. The reason for white (or planted) roofs is clear. and the reason for high solar-panel efficiency is also clear.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 10, 2012
DrAlexC, I cant send you supporting links now because Im at the playground with my son. Im sure thar Berkeley study actually proved the SRI of a thin film a-Si was equivalent to a manmade terracotta roof tile. Given all the manmade infrastructure thats already out there, I much prefer to retrofit what is existing with more efficient and affordable hybrid roof designs that are aesthetically palatable to the layperson than just simply throw in the towel on humanity. It is actually possible to gain acceptance by your typical "Urban Heat" crowd because we can also integrate real vegetative green roofing for many of your concerns.This way you can lower roof surface temperatures and have an active carbon sink among some of the list of benefits. In the mean time, we should be using our energy on what does work instead of waiting for that perfect sustainable solar energy solution. You should take the time and Google about ARTEZANOS HYBRID GREEN ROOF SOLUTIONS before your next rebuttle. I look forward to your comments...
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 10, 2012
Arguelles, the key point is being missed. Laying out 100 sq meters of 10% efficient solar vs 50 sq meters of 20% solar, means what? a) It means a net of 50sqm x 900Watts of wasted heat and unnatural IR radiated up to GHGs. b) Saving a few $ by making the environment hotter is false economy. c) The above disadvantages balloon as other systems reduce combustion-power generation. You might as well paint half the roof black and save the $. NREL doesn't look at the IR production issue. Most 'green' building & solar folks don't even understand it. But, Lawrence Berkeley Labs, the International Heat Island Group, the Calif. Energy Comm., etc. do science, so understand, and have explained for years, exactly why low-reflectivity & inefficient solar are environmentally harmful, not beneficial. Just because someone can make $ from something they call 'green', doesn't make it a good choice.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 10, 2012
DrAlexC, Efficiency & Cost per watt can be secondary when involving FLEXIBLE thin film form factors that offset traditional building material & installation costs. as per a recent NREL study, even low efficiency a-Si (6.7%) used as BIPV has more offset value than CIGS or c-Si by at least $1.00 per watt because it does offset a larger space than needed for high efficiency solar. NREL study: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/53103.pdf Some practical knowledge of installations in the field would have actually indicated more savings than the NREL study, had they known about the flexibility of Tile Integrated Photovoltaics (T.I.P.V.). T.I.P.V. is known in Florida and is the only Solar allowed to be installed by a Roofing Contractor instead of more expensive Solar Contractors & Electricians like all other solar. TIPV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDmyOrhhGk State of Florida Dec Statement: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/cilb/documents/ds_2011-060.pdf Now couple this information with the fact thet you can also invisibly integrate Roof Integrated Solar Absorbers (R.I.S.A.) within the system to create hot water for domestic use and you have a solar electric/solar thermal roof system thats sustainable and AFFORDABLE! NREL/FSEC R.I.S.A. Study: http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/RISAPaper_SolarForum2001.pdf The answer has been in our hands gentlemen, we have now what it takes to get things done. Arguing whose efficiency and cost per watt is the best is pure nonsense. What we need is an inexpensive way to scale the market and get homeowners to adopt. There will always be a higher efficient or cheaper product in the fuiture. Big Deal! He,he,he... Dan
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 10, 2012
David, don't know where you get your figures, but no thin film has reached 20% in production. And, efficiency is indeed key, because it relates directly to how much material needs to be processed & sold per Watt. This is why researchers all over are looking at advanced ways of maximizing photon conversion efficiencies with minimum material. Some of these are indeed "thin film" in the sense of dimensions, but are grown crystalline materials. "Peel-off" gallium-arsenide research cells are examples -- high efficiency, low materials cost. The higher the efficiency, the higher your KWHr output per installed $.
David Bergay
David Bergay
June 9, 2012
Mr alex...I am not talking about efficiency or space. I am talking about kWh/kWp. How much power is produced by 1kW installed? We do have a 20kW mono installed next to 20kW A - thin film and the thin film produces 30% more power. Efficiency is over rated and over discussed. Very rarely is there not enough room for what the customer needs. Even residential is now eligible for better performing Amorphous Thin Film. See Photon Yeild Report, thin film makes more power!
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2012
David & Patrick, if your thin-film systems convert less than 20% of the sunlight's 1kW/sq meter to juice, they're not as good as even the SunPower E-20 panels. And, they add >800W/sq meter of unnatural heating to the surroundings. Love to see data proving that wrong! Could be a Nobel inside! ;]
Patrick O'Leary
Patrick O'Leary
June 9, 2012
David, Good point! Does any cooling at all improve the situation? Futura Solar offers to include Thin Film in its system. It would be placed on the absorber plate in the 2 pass air heater, which would carry away heat. The prototype had crystalline, due to availability, which saw adverse effect. Check the web site for details. I'd be glad to answer any questions. The system is intended to be multiple solar.
David Bergay
David Bergay
June 9, 2012
Thin Film Rocks. In the SW U.S. thin film outperforms standard crystalline ever time. Heat cooefficient is the main reason. Nexpower is the best. Astronergy is close. We have volumes of data in AZ, CA, NM, and TX. Contact me if interested in more.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 8, 2012
Solar hot water is fine, because the energy is transferred to a fluid and the panel itself is cooler and radiates away less waste heat. Photonics is a many-faceted realm and many different ways of directly extracting electrical energy from sunlight are, and will be, under investigation. So indeed, as the efficiency of individual solar cells designs improve, waste heat will decrease. I don't advocate any but the most efficient systems available at any time. This will be improving inexorably, toward Nature's maximum of 1kW/SQ meter. Waste heat is of little thermodynamic value, except for space/process heating. The use of it for generation via some engine is severely limited by the ratio of inlet & exhaust temps. Very little power can be extracted from even a 100C source, like a hot solar panel.
Patrick O'Leary
Patrick O'Leary
June 8, 2012
Dr. Alex, do you really hang everything on a single solar benefit system? Waste heat is wasted only if it isn't put to good use, like displacing fossil fuels, for example. Just as your desktop computer printer now has several functions, so should your roof. Divide the payback period by something greater than 1.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 7, 2012
I'll just add that from both the environmental & engineering views, we want the highest efficiency and longest-life devices. Thin film is always less efficient than crystalline, and research is always improving the many ways crystalline devices operate internally, at the photonic level. The basic principle for any solar PV is: (1 - efficiency) = waste heat -- adding to global warming both directly and via unnatural infrared radiated upward to GHGs. So, paint a roof white & install the highest efficiency panels.
Kim Hanna
Kim Hanna
June 7, 2012
What about the longevity of thin film and the residual value after paying for the system. Crystalline silicon can last 50 years with little degrading.
stephen christy
stephen christy
June 6, 2012
Hey Jennifer what's the scoop on Nano Solar these days?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 6, 2012
Unfortunately, thin film is simply cheap. It fails the fundamental test of efficiency -- Watts per square meter. 1 - efficiency is waste heat, which goes directly to global warming.
Patrick O'Leary
Patrick O'Leary
June 5, 2012
Futura Solar expects the specifation of thin film as PV or as PV/Thermal in it's Sawtooth Solar Daylighter, for low profile commercial buildings. This system, a revival of old fashioned sawtooth roofing provides daylighting, solar thermal air (with incidental air handling) and allows for PV, SWH or PV/Thermal as the building owner specifies. Thin film still has an application.
daniel arguelles
daniel arguelles
June 5, 2012
Here is a-Si flexible thin film offsetting more traditional material costs and minimally impacting the roofing aesthetic with an uplift resistance of 727PSF without one penetration to the deck. One must keep in mind that the footprint of the solar area designated is area you dont need to tile. Here efficiency doesnt matter because you can use more of your non-useable & not visible roof area and one does not need to respect a 3ft. perimeter (as do rack mounted c-Si)) from the eave and ridge windzones for the high wind velocity zone like South Florida:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDmyOrhhGk
Eystein Hansen
Eystein Hansen
June 4, 2012
C-si with much higher effiency (16%+) is targeting 0.60 $ per watt in q4. And it would be very nice to have a source for the claim:"But thin-film works better in low light conditions and in hot environments, which means that in certain sun drenched areas of the world, thin-film turns out to have a lower levelized cost of energy (LCOE). " Not that I dont belive the author, I just want to read about it myself to learn more. Anyhow I think there is a bright future for cheaper less efficient panels together with slightly more expensive and more efficient panels. Both can do well in the comming solar market.
E Fried
E Fried
June 4, 2012
Does a-Si industry need the power to the grid market? They might have less competitors when integrating a-Si into construction and leisure products.

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Jennifer Runyon

Jennifer Runyon

Jennifer Runyon is managing editor of RenewableEnergyWorld.com coordinating, writing and/or editing columns, features, news stories and blogs for the publications. She also serves as conference chair of Solar Power-Gen Conference and Exhibition...
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