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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? Click Here to Register! ×

On the Horizon: Deeper Wind, Faster Solar

Steve Leone, Associate Editor, RenewableEnergyWorld.com
April 24, 2012  |  24 Comments

Offshore wind technology is striving to reach new depths while the solar industry is facing a challenge to make rooftop installation easier than ever. Both announcements this week are structured to clear some of the fundamental hurdles facing the wind and the solar industries.

Ahead of an international clean energy conference this week in London, the U.K.’s Department of Energy and Climate Change said it is working with the U.S. Department of Energy on a plan to develop floating wind technology that will give turbines access to the strong, consistent resources currently out of reach of current wind farms.

On Tuesday, the DOE announced that it is making $5 million available this year toward the development of “plug-and-play” solar rooftop installations with the guiding principle that a system should be purchased, installed and made operational in one day.

Floating Wind Technology

U.K. Energy Secretary Edward Davey and U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu will co-chair the Clean Energy Ministerial, which brings energy officials from 23 leading economies to London on Wednesday and Thursday.

The collaborative deal between the United States and Britain is among the many that are expected to be struck during the talks. According to the initial agreement, the nations will work to develop floating wind technology designed to generate power in deep waters currently off limits to conventional turbines.

Britain has in recent years emerged as the world leader in offshore wind development, though none of it has come in the deep waters that require floating turbine technology. Meanwhile, the U.S. has what experts consider a world class wind resource off of both the Atlantic and Pacific Coasts, as well as the Gulf Coast and the Great Lakes region. Yet, the country has yet to install an offshore turbine even in shallow coastal waters.

“Floating wind turbines will allow us to exploit more of the our wind resource, potentially more cheaply,” said Davey. “Turbines will be able to locate in ever deeper waters where the wind is stronger but without the expense of foundations down to the seabed or having to undertake major repairs out at sea. The U.K. and U.S. are both making funding available for this technology and we’re determined to work together to capitalise on this shared intent.”

Solar will be put up faster

As the costs of PV modules continue to fall, an increasing emphasis is being placed on reducing costs beyond the panel. “Soft” costs, such as installation, hardware, permitting and interconnection, now make up more than half the total costs of residential systems.

According to the DOE, the goal of the funding is to drive the innovation that will fundamentally change how residential PV systems are designed and installed. The systems, says the DOE, “could be installed without special training or tools, and simply plugged into a PV-ready circuit, through which an automatic detection system would initiate communication between the solar energy system and the utility.”

As part of its SunShot Initiative, the DOE will invest $5 million this year for two prototype projects through partnerships with universities, industry, utilities and other stakeholders. The Department plans to request from Congress $20 million over the next four years.

24 Comments

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Chris Kapsambelis
Chris Kapsambelis
May 9, 2012
We've been told that integrating renewables up to 20% is doable with little to no additional cost, with an equivalent reduction in emissions. The problems identified by MIT are showing up at less than 10% penetration with little to no savings in greenhouse gas emissions, and very high cost.

Utility scale cost effective storage is a solution, but MIT says that is at least 10 years away and may never come. In the meantime we could be wasting money and resources on solutions that may never work. One suggestion was to demand a hybrid power plant made up of a renewable source like wind, and a balancing natural gas generator that would provide firm dispatchable power compatible with the existing system. If or when storage became available it would just have to replace the natural gas component.

No need for "Smart Grids". No need for retrofits to existing plants. And, no need for complex new operating rules and regulations.
John Carr
John Carr
May 9, 2012
So, our 'best' minds at MIT got together and figured out that if the power generators shut off without warning we have problems.

Bravo!

How many professors did it take to figure that out? This is a revelation? Is is there anyone in this forum that didn't know this 10 years ago?

There is, and always have been three complementary solutions for intermittent electrical generation:

1. Faster-smarter distribution switching,
2. Storage,
3. Back-up generation.

This works at any scale; from Energy Reliability Councils to your home computer.

You don't have to be an MIT brain trust to see that.

We have backup generators, smart grid is happening, so what we really need now is cost effective storage. Compact, inexpensive storage is a game changer for both generation and transportation.

You want to watch the oil companies flinch? Build a better battery.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
May 9, 2012
All this reminds me of Mao and his backyard iron smelters. Wind and solar combined were 1% of total US energy in 2011, and not likely to ever get out of single digits.
Chris Kapsambelis
Chris Kapsambelis
May 4, 2012
It looks like the DOE's plan for 20% renewables might be in some trouble. MIT held a symposium on the subject, and found that we cannot just continue tying wind turbines and solar panels to the grid without affecting the overall system. MIT Professor John Deutch warned policymakers and regulators that intermittent sources will cost more for total operations, and they have to decide who is going to pay for it.
"as renewable capacity has increased, the intermittent nature of wind and solar generation ... has led to operational difficulties and unintended consequences for emissions and economic efficiency."
kevin moore
kevin moore
April 26, 2012
Phil No sir,,, there are as you know tens of thousands of very active people working to take less if anything at all from the grid, commonsense plays a bigger part in it than intelligence. I think any grade school child if trained, could wire a PV panel to a controller and inverter. I'm not saying my idea is the only way, I'm promoting this because I see that we can extract 100 times the energy we use world wide from Wind, wave and ocean current energy, with today's technology. I'm not here to argue, I think because we all subscribe to this website we are all looking for the same things to happen.

Jim not sure where your numbers are coming from, my numbers come from research and publications IE: The U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), found that a kilogram of hydrogen (roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline in BTUs) could be produced by wind powered electrolysis for between $5.55 to $2.27,,,, How much did you pay for gas the last time you filled up?
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
April 26, 2012
Surely we can toss this around a long time, but offshore wind or terestrial has it's part, but it is for the Ute development in clean energy, not for the taxable public to fund.
Are you then saying you don't think that at least quite a few people are smart enuff to want extra cash, free electricity, and a solar energy and heating system paid for in less than ten years along with the responsibility to control or enlargen their investment at will and ability?? I believe they will buy an SUV or high end (whatever) for the same amount because it represents a form of status to them, and they know that sitting on the money is a looser these days. When the talk gets around that solar can indeed be a net money maker in a decade's time, or less, depending on the 'solar carve-out' set, and then there is much more money for retirement funding, the Ute's will be needing to accept distributed energy from millions of producers, and a great deal of conflict and competitive antagonism will be let go of because it will not be necessary.
If it is profitable, they will come on board! Certainly not everyone at first. AND... If I am wrong, there is no huge bundle of government funding down the drain.
The ego fears equality, and look what corporate control of our economy is getting us.
Jim Stack
Jim Stack
April 26, 2012
Kev I viewed your concept page and it's trying to say H2 hydrogen is an answer. It's just an energy carrier making most H2 today is from fossil fuel and takes 4 times as much energy at 100 time the cost of using electric direct and having lithium batteries for storage. Vehicles sit 20+ hiours a day and V2G-101.com can use that storage for more renewables and regulation of the GRID.
kevin moore
kevin moore
April 26, 2012
Phil your assumptions seem well informed but you clearly didn't view my concept page or you are unwilling to see there is more than one way to skin a cat. The point is to replace fossil fuel with a clean renewable sources without changing the way people consume, all with the existing infrastructure. Even with incentives most people are in no position to generate 5 kWh they need to run their homes as they do today. Sure it's a good idea to lower ones carbon output, Insulating your home, use LED lights and hot spot water heaters are a good place to start. The fact remains people don't want to cut back on their standards of living, Solar, PV and micro wind are fine for kit builder projects, for tinkers to lower there utility bills but the mainstream population will always want to plug in and not think about where it comes from. Changing big energy, utility companies is the only way to get free from Non-renewable energy in modern society. Sure there is energy loss in my concept but look at the energy loss in transmitting DC voltage wind turbine energy across miles of cable, then converting it to AC voltage for the grid and then that energy is only made under perfect condition and it can't be stored for peak hours.

Ultimately Renewable energy is being held back in conversations like this one and disputes over Not In My Back Yard, while all the oil companies agree that they are still in control of the world economy.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
April 26, 2012
More partial science here. Hydrogen burns quite differently than NG or other fuels. It has great affinity for oxygen, and altho it burns very hot, it is compressed in space. Far more efficient to use H2 in fuel cells, but very costly to construct at needed scales, I'm sure. Also losses to convert to a heat form and back to electric power, which it is from the wind generator.
But let's back up a minute...... It should be asked...... Does all of our power need to come from corporate utilities? If this necessary commodity can be collected in many yards and roof tops all across our country at a profit, why should we pay an outside corporation to do what we can easily do for ourselves. Install the equipment one time, and collect the returns for a half century or more. No one has ever worn out a correctly configured solar array yet! Inverters, maybe, in time. A glass window does not wear out. Only the support structure. The Utes, (and their stock holders), want everyone to get excited about their band wagon and pay them forever. I say, look again. 'Check the mouth on this gift horse'. Let corporations do the wind power caper at their own risk, not with public money! Rather, encourage the public to install their own SOLAR power production equipment and compensate them for the endeavor.
kevin moore
kevin moore
April 26, 2012
I've been talking about deep wind power for years, but my concept takes it way beyond conventional thinking. Floating is the way to go for many of the reasons stated in this article and in the commentary. Cheaper to build, more jobs for tradesmen like welders and shipwrights, they can be made from cradle to cradle materials, and avoid the "Not in my back yard" facing most large wind projects. But I say rather then invest in miles of cable to get the intermittent electricity to the shore,,, why not store the energy as Hydrogen and burn it in the very same coal and natural gas power plants online today. Or build power plants that desalinize water at the same time they are making power for the grid. clean, drinkable water is going to take center stage in the world soon and 10% of the 7 billion people alive today need it now. More on my concepts here:http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmoore001/sets/72157623631942524/
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
April 26, 2012
Floating Windmills would be a boon to the shipyard industry because the windmills can be towed in to be repaired.
ANONYMOUS
April 25, 2012
Residential PV solar has some advantages in that it utilizes an otherwise unused piece of real estate, locates the power generation right at the user, and requires very little additional transmission infrastructure to connect it to the grid. The downside is that residential PV solar is still very expensive.

As for offshore wind, it is still about 50% more expensive than onshore. Moving the turbines into deeper waters and using "floating" towers won't help. This will only make offshore wind LCOE more expensive rather than less expensive. While a fleet of giant, floating, permanent magnet, direct-drive, offshore turbines might sound impressive in a press release, it makes no sense economically.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
April 25, 2012
I hear you about the bare, solarless roofs. It is the same all over this country, you know. Solar panels are extremely rare.
And it need not be on roofs. I have most of mine in the yard, on poles with seasonal angle adjustment. Thermal is on the roof for DHW. Main thing is, it pays me! It is easily below grid parity, especially if one installs it themselves.
Enjoy the "Solar Sweetlife".
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
April 25, 2012
We will need to hold the "representatives of capital" to remember who hired them and petition, petition, petition... They must be held to the fire on this to get it updated. Many states already have an RPS in place, because the Ute's can pay themselves thru wind and hydro REC's but are missing the "Solar Carveout". Without the small percentage of solar requirement, distributed energy will remain in the Ute's bank account. That's not a good deal. The eastern states that have used this venue have seen the prices falter at times and are gradually getting the wrinkles out to enable a smoother trading board, and it is working out. I've been following it closely. "Carbon credits pay for solar adoption". It gradually phases into higher carbon credit costs and solar credit payments will lessen when the solar provision becomes saturated (not any time soon, I'm sure), but meanwhile the solar industry will boom; both thermal and electric, because only the production is earning payment, not suppliers and certifiers of high priced certified hardware. I feel the market has come a long way along with people's knowledge of what works, and we have the internet to learn with now, a little better than in the '70's. Even if someone has a homemade system that has a production meter in line deserves solar credits because it serves the same end. Cleaner air and water.
Ralph Perez
Ralph Perez
April 25, 2012
Phil (comment 8) don't forget Nevada. The City of Lights is a huge polluter. Wall Street saw to that, by gumming up the Bureau of Land Management's solar PV application process. Do a search on it, if you can stomach it. Surrounded by a vast desert, but with virtually no solar. Take a peak at Las Vegas rooftops on your next visit.... they are bare, solarless. While unemployment remains at an all time high. Nevada is a very sad situation. NV Energy and others know which wheels to grease to keep it that way. The powers that be keep progress down in several areas, to maintain their monopolies.
Jim Stack
Jim Stack
April 25, 2012
Phil, Great point on the SREC's . I think all solar jobs should stop taking the few cents from SRP and APS in AZ and get the SREC market going. That incentives actually comes from us as rate payers to begin with and utilities should have never been taking tham like the AZCC set up in the past. It's time to stop.

I also have solar PV 4Kw and Solar hot water, 4 solar ovens and solar tube lights for daytime. I run my home and 100% electric LEAF and the utiltiy still owe's me at the end of this year 1,200 kwh !
Howard Johnson
Howard Johnson
April 25, 2012
phil-manke-79191

You are exactly RIGHT ! !
And if the politicians in the fine state of AZ would get it together, the state could be pumping excess solar electricity to other states ! ! ! And reduce the coal pollution in the 4 corners area of AZ, CO, NM and UT.
My system works very well, thank you ! !

http://www.mpsaz.org/rmhs/staff/hljohnson/solar_information/

Johnson
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
April 25, 2012
No surprise here. Even if wind generation gets the push back, the Ute's will seek to benefit in solar dominance since their main objective is to remain as the 'go-to' monopoly of electric generation (and govt influence). They NOW get their own carbon payments back as REC's with wind, whereas, if SREC's, or Solar REC's, are mandated in 'all' states instead of the dozen or so eastern ones, the true benefits of freely Distributed Energy would come to be the 'rule instead of the exception', and RE would be widespread and as common as any other electrical supply venue, but without the pollution, AND with a distributed income provision that may be the real cause for push-back from govt and industrial bodies.
.......... If any home, business, or rooftop with a 'solar window' could receive levelized solar energy payments for 'solar derived energy', electrical and thermal, there would be a leveling of incomes and an 'installer job' swell across the country. A huge one! Just look at what happened in NJ with SREC incentives. That small state is second only to CA in USA solar adoption.
...........The Ute's do have a role to fill here, of course. Not everyone can do solar. But the huge build out of the grid across the nation could be massively cut back if distributed energy were to be adequately incentivized through intelligent use 'carbon payments for distributed solar'. SREC's will pay for the Solar Energy, and the early adopters will get the best return! How is this not an economic stimulant along with a cleaner world?
But the general public is being kept in the dark about the potential they could develope now that distributed energy is in the realm of personal investment and responsibility with attendant distributed profit. The plethora of naked rooftops and yards in the USA with solar potential would be envious by many around the world. But here, we remain asleep, and let the Ute's position themselves for yet one more leveraged attack upon the rights of the middle class
John Carr
John Carr
April 25, 2012
Joseph-Riley...

You should probably retract that remark about jobs. It is not true in any fashion.

There are plenty of people who read this that would gladly knock you down in public over that kind of comment. I am one of them.

Unless you can name them, I would retract the remark about your 'plethora of cancer solvents.' Again, it's not generally true.

Many solar modules installed in Texas are made entirely in Texas. For instance, 1Soltech makes panels at a very competitive price in Farmer's Branch Texas. Farmers Branch shares a border with Dallas.
Christopher Munson
Christopher Munson
April 25, 2012
A comment regarding US jobs related to the solar market. There are in fact many US jobs related to the manufacture and installation of solar panels. I am currently working with a client on a solar panel installation in Minneapolis, and the local electric utility, Xcel Energy, provides an additional rebate per watt installed for panels manufactured in Minnesota, and this more than offsets the small increase in cost. A quick internet search will help locate Made in USA panels including SolarWorld, manufactured in Oregon to name just one.
James Davis
James Davis
April 25, 2012
That is fantastic, and I can't wait to place my own solar panels on my roof and then give the utility company the birdy when they drive by to estimate my power usage.
Joseph Riley
Joseph Riley
April 25, 2012
This is a comment about the push to make solar panels easier to install. I am all for making installation easier, but at the same time we have to be aware of charlatans using green energy to push for a nonexistent job market. There are NO USA-based jobs coming out of this technology, and we are promoting the manufacture of panels in countries that don't protect the well-being of workers who are exposed to the plethora of cancer-causing solvents required for the manufacture of these components - not to mention the emissions to nearby human dwellings and the damage to the environment caused by these emissions.
Timothy Regan
Timothy Regan
April 25, 2012
Very positive news, and the YouTube videos are fascinating
Minwoo Kim
Minwoo Kim
April 24, 2012
As you know, they have to reduce the vibration to install Floating Wind Turbines on the sea. Because, it makes many kinds of problems! The vibration's caused by wind, waves and external forces. New Floating Body Stabilizer for Floating Wind Turbines has been created in South Korea. The Floating Body Stabilizers generate drag force immediately when Floating Wind Turbines are being rolled and pitched on the water. Recently, this Floating Body Stabilizer's using to reduce the
Vibration of Floating Solar Panels in South Korea. You can see New Floating Body Stabilizer videos in YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moO--q5B92k, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA_xFp5ktbU&feature=youtu.be. Anyways, very interesting. Thanks.

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Steve Leone

Steve Leone

Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California.
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