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Solar Trade Dispute: Behind the Jobs Numbers

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25 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 25
February 2, 2012
This seems a well written story on a complicated issue, but I think the first comment is spot on. In some ways the real problem is the GOP House not the Chinese. At lest the sales people and installers will be local and the bottom line is to put coal out of the business of polluting.
Comment
2 of 25
February 2, 2012
I think the development of solar energy should be as free a's sunlight itself. It's should be exempt from this. Isn't it supposed to be good for us?

I won a US Bankruptcy Court Auction for Evergeen. I'll buy Any panels that enable me to make solar energy cost effective even remnants, blemished modules and unfinished modules.

Solar energy utilization that is not cost effective will not survive. Take away the subsidies and every market except off grid will disappear immediately.
Solar World and CASM are rocking the boat, if this was the Titanic I would throw them off.

For more info read my blog.

Thank you.

John
Comment
3 of 25
February 2, 2012
One thing that wasn't mentioned is the possibility of the Chinese imposing tarrifs on imports of US polysilicon. It seems very likely they will do this if only in retaliation. The Chinese PV market is the fastest growing right now and they import over half their polysilicon from the US. I wonder how much of a negative effect this would have?
Comment
4 of 25
February 2, 2012
Congratulations Mr. Steve Leone for the article/new is very clarifying.

I think that it is important to show and uncover all the cases of bad operation of chinese technologies around the world. Is important raise awareness to world market and normal customers about all the projects that using Chinese products or others products without enough quality that make spend amount of money on projects.

In Spain the Renewable Energy situatuion is very worrying, we are losing a lot of jobs and the goverment is not helping for fix the situation, even is cuting all kind of help/subsidies for a Spanish Renewable Energy market.

Once, Spain was leader industrially,Renewable Energy Companies, and we are losing the train...losing and losing jobs, losing the leader position. Goverment knows about that and contnue NO helping to develop the market.
From SRB Energy we are trying to develop a unic technology around the world, without no Spanish help facing a global world crisis.

We must highlight the Quality, the Good Technology and the best technical solution for a better world (more sustainable, more efficient, more clean with nature, etc...)

kind regards
Enrique
Comment
5 of 25
February 2, 2012
The problem with independent studies such as these is the reliance of certain varibles remaining true during the prediction period.
Who's to say that investors will not flow into next generation panels at a time when the infrastructure to support it is ready to handle added growth?

Because there is inadequate proof this type of development will or will not be ready, one is left to dig deeper to find clues to which way the market will go.
Comment
6 of 25
February 2, 2012
the use of child labor in china could be a factor in the low cost of china pv products. look at the latest news report on the china company that makes products for apple
Comment
7 of 25
February 2, 2012
steve7734 (and Anon#1): Yes that's an interesting angle. Recall the SEIA/GTM's study late last year that found the US as a net solar exporter in 2010 was because of poly-Si and PV manufacturing tools (http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/08/solar-stunner-america-is-a-1-9-billion-exporter-of-solar-products) I've been told by a source that China is already floating a petition, and GCL is on board, to act on US exports of polySi (not just the material itself, but things like furnaces and crucibles). A next step could very well be to expand to more PV manufacturing tools and US suppliers. You'd then have a whole new line of names/groups with skin in the game...
Comment
8 of 25
February 2, 2012
Ignoring labor violations is another danger.
Our own country was guilty of this a century ago and it took a cooperative effort of our own citizens and government to wake up and do something about it.
Unfortunately, it takes alot of work to turn it around.
What helped was enforcing children to go to school and assigning truant officers to make sure the greedy entrepeneurs couldn't lure them in to make money.
That was a national problem back then, now the problem is global.
Comment
9 of 25
February 2, 2012
A reasonable take is that Congress, not just the GOP but they spearhead this stuff, is so thoroughly drenched in captive-market-assured-income [aka revenue stream] thinking that they are totally against a free-market because their money schemes rely on artificial props and inside deals to survive.

I agree with John that in a free-market non-renewables will fail instantly from the real costs being exposed.

Another issue is that energy is equated to electricity but that's not a panacea for 7-billion people.

Consider that we need very basic changes, our architecture should employ passive-solar for example. This doesn't cost more to build, it's just a different way to build.

That for example would remove space-heating from the grid, it would mean that we don't need any new power plants is the way it works, and that's just what the energy cartels don't want.

So they perpetrate the scam, they don't even hide the subsidies that keep coal burning, why bother when Congress is so obviously run by cartel money? The current power mongers are just that, to where in America about 20% of our children go to bed every night not knowing where the food is coming from tomorrow. Hunter-gatherer I suspect is the trend here, there are no jobs so?

So, we have a form of child labor here, our labor unions were reactions to child labor, union busting is popular, that's where it's gone again.

That's how extreme the monetary distribution is, the rich and powerful are addicted to money and ruthless about it far as I can tell, when you starve that many of a one's own nation's kids to keep the money flowing above all else, pretty bad.
Comment
10 of 25
February 2, 2012
Remember, the only true legal taxes are import and export taxes. (Refer to the Boston Tea Party and the Constitution) All other taxes are voluntary. (Though forced upon us)
NAFTA destroys this concept.
As far as I know, solar related items here in the US are tax exempt.
Both import tax and exempt tax should be cause enough for us to manufacture and purchase items made here in the US. This in turn will create jobs. Government involvement, destroying US manufacturing, in favor of cheap overseas labor is the real issue that needs to be addressed. It was only a matter of time before they increased import taxes to line their pockets on items that people want and should be purchasing in the US. Thus the reason for setting up, destroying and bankrupting the US manufacturing of RE products and industry.
Comment
11 of 25
February 2, 2012
The third concern is the reduction of the purchasing power below middle class due to:

1. profits from automation improvements not replacing the jobs lost with equal or better spending power (per capita).
2. Same profits not driving down the cost fast enough

As a result, such improvements in automation needs to:
1. lower the price point of these solar panels to a certain percentage point that fosters new industry growth supporting added GDP due to value added job growth.
2. Drive the costs of panels to virtually free like water (Think locally owned utility such as is happening in Boulder Colorado).
Comment
12 of 25
February 2, 2012
Many modern manufacturing facilities will use robotics (do a quick search on it) - not children. Robots are cheaper (especially in solar assisted facilities) and do not require sleep. I think China realizes this and will use it to drive their manufacturing costs even lower. They have already stated that if the US taxes, or otherwise impedes sales of their panels, they will use the oversupply to cover their nation in rooftop solar.... just it time to power the splurge in electric vehicles they are having.

With a negligible military budget, and the interest from US debt bond purchases working for them. The direction we have given them, appears to be driving their quality of life even higher. Just to protect big energy and big oil's political money in the US. They, after all, are the ultimate benefactors of higher pricing of solar. No matter how the story is spun.
Comment
13 of 25
February 2, 2012
This info is garbage. What we are talking about in increased costs of panels is somewhere around the $1.40 a watt numbers and maybe less. These increased costs associated with solar will have minimum effect on short or long term employment in the industry except increased domestic manufacturing. We have to remember that as the costs of electricity rise, alternative energy will create its own demand.

That is a no Brainer.
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Comment
14 of 25
Anonymous
February 2, 2012
Bravo Solar World, Germans do what US should of done long ago.
We need higher tax for the exporters of high tech jobs and import tariffs on communists made product.
Make no mistakes communistic China play unfair to win and dominate.
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Comment
15 of 25
Anonymous
February 3, 2012
SolarWorld employs Americans
Comment
16 of 25
February 3, 2012
It is interesting that very few who discuss this matter ever refer to the reason the DOC is involved. We have laws, protectionists laws for sure, that are intended to protect us from predatory governments, and industries.

We enforce the law at our borders in lieu of war on distant shores. Shall we abandon peaceful enforcement of the rule of law? Shall we abandon the rule of law and simply compete without rules or any sense of conscience? Lawlessness generally leads to war or military action in the long run.

No matter which side you are on in this debate, both sides should focus on abiding by or modifying the rules. Having the DOC investigate is a proper course of action. The Chinese also have their rules. Many of them exclude our products. Fair trade is achieved through negotiation not intimidation.

Although, intimidation is easier...
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Comment
17 of 25
Anonymous
February 3, 2012
@john-carr-174305
"We have laws, protectionists laws for sure, that are intended to protect us from predatory governments, and industries. "
Sorry John you are day dreaming, if there is such a law exist it certainly do much for 12 years.
Since China's entry into the WTO in 2001 and through 2010, the increase in U.S.-China trade deficits eliminated or displaced 2,790,100 U.S. jobs more the 3 M by 2012. On average, 310,000 jobs per year have been lost or displaced since China's entry into the WTO.
The continuing growth in job displacement between 2008 and 2010 despite the relatively small increase in the trade deficit reflects the relatively rapid growth of U.S. imports of computer and electronics products from China, and the fact that the price index for most of these products fell continuously throughout the study period…
http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/china-job-loss/read-report#3

"We enforce the law at our borders in lieu of war on distant shores. Shall we abandon peaceful enforcement of the rule of law? Shall we abandon the rule of law and simply compete without rules or any sense of conscience? Lawlessness generally leads to war or military action in the long run."
Unless you intended to say "Lawlessness BEYOND OUR BORDERS generally leads to war or military action in the long run" then you correct---NONE of the 20th 21st century wars related to lawlessness inside USA. It is lawlessness on "distant shores" resulted in military actions by USA
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Comment
18 of 25
Anonymous
February 3, 2012
@john-carr-174305
'We enforce the law at our borders in lieu of war on distant shores. Shall we abandon peaceful enforcement of the rule of law? Shall we abandon the rule of law and simply compete without rules or any sense of conscience? Lawlessness generally leads to war or military action in the long run.'
Unless you intended to say 'Lawlessness BEYOND OUR BORDERS generally leads to war or military action in the long run' then you correct---NONE of the 20th 21st century wars related to lawlessness inside USA. It is lawlessness on 'distant shores' resulted in military actions by USA

'No matter which side you are on in this debate, both sides should focus on abiding by or modifying the rules.'
Brilliant, So how do long you sing KUMBAYA and do you negotiate with someone who does not change their rules and not willing to compromise? How long do we have to 'stay in front off the Wall of China and repeat wishful whisper: - 'open sesame'?
For more than decade we 'negotiate' with China to change their currency policy. Basically to be like majority members of WTO having floating on the tradable market currency. They pretend to be talking and negotiating just to buy time…I think 12 years and 3 million jobs lost is long enough.
'The Chinese also have their rules.' Agreed Here are some of them:
1. Currency manipulation. China 'pegs' its currency at a very low, or 'weak' rate, so goods from China cost up to 40% less than they otherwise should.
2. Labor-rights suppression has lowered manufacturing wages of Chinese workers by 47% to 86%.
3. There is massive direct government subsidization of export production in many key industries.
4. China allows environmental degradation that ends up affecting all of us.
5. Intellectual property theft and piracy mean that American products that could be sold are stolen instead.
6. China has a number of policies that block U.S. firms from market access.
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Comment
19 of 25
Anonymous
February 3, 2012
@john-carr-174305
"Fair trade is achieved through negotiation not intimidation. Although, intimidation is easier "
Both Wrong Assumptions, from historical and common sense points of view.
So what do you do if your neighbor keep moving his fence dipper and dipper to your property….you talking to him and level with him and giving him your reasons and ones upon a time you suddenly feel your back against the wall of your house, then you realized…
... That you have to take a stand and hold your ground.
Negotiation without intimidation is not always works and don't make sense no more with Communistic country like China
FYI Chinas internal prospective on the world and USA are very different then in US.
To be specific: it is common PR and general populous opinion, industrial successes of USA is a historical fluke and with deep historical point of view of inventions of many things around that have a Chinas origin starting from umbrella, spaghettis and black powder to precision metal casting and manufacturing of the weapons Chinas intend to become a new world super power and prove that Communism is more advanced form of governance then capitalistic democracy. Make no mistake about it. New race to the moon is already "On" Only this time China has money and manufacturing capacity to build the racket
(Thank you Wal-Mart and Apple for train them and give latest hi speed processing electronics , communication, software, PCB HW and optics "know how") The newest Chinas aircraft carrier is almost ready for action in Pacific and World Wide. O yes, on the deck you will see China hi-tech knockout of Russian SU jets.... Well, they have tons of $$$ money, knowhow and everything they need to reach the Moon…… Do We?
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Comment
20 of 25
Anonymous
February 5, 2012
•Russia, China veto U.N. plan for Syria

China is our friend. We should give them our business.
Comment
21 of 25
February 5, 2012
I guess the problematic is depending on the supply chain. If you deliver machinery and special materials to chinese producers, you might not profit from import taxes.
Lets analyse the problem bit by bit - for ingots, wafers, cells, modules..
I mainly would tax transport more in a first step, in order to keep the domestic assembling plants alive.
Comment
22 of 25
February 5, 2012
Assuming for the sake of the argument that the quality and longevity of Chinese and American panels are the same, it is far too important that we have a fast uptake of solar to allow America to put on tariffs. If America can not out-compete China, it would be in her best interests to buy Chinese. I wouldn't say this for most products but renewable energy equipment is in a class of its own in this regard.
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Comment
23 of 25
Anonymous
February 5, 2012
America can out-compete China with a level playing field. What don't people get about China not playing fair? Hello.
Comment
24 of 25
February 5, 2012
To anonymous:
I understand your frustration. A race to the bottom leads us to the bottom. But, you missed the point.

You cannot, individually, fight this and win. It has to be done collectively. China is banking that we will tear ourselves apart over short term profits. So far, they're dead on.

The rule of law is about acting collectively. This includes enforcement. Enforcement includes everything from tariffs to full scale war.

But, it begins with the rule of law. Our rules need some serious revision. Our enforcement is pathetic.

As far as "Kumbaya"
Business is a contact sport.
Since when is being civil idealistic?
Being civil doesn't mean you won't destroy your competition.

Believing that you can fix this by whining is a waste of time.
Believing you can fix this without good trade policy and enforcement is ignorance.
Comment
25 of 25
February 12, 2012
Go try and bid a solar job (LOTS OF THEM) or buy a solar job or sale your US made panels in China. Just a thought. All politics aside we have the oil and coal boys on the run and very worried at this point (look at all the oil companies that have jumped into the game) Coal and oil are spending $ billions on marketing their CLEAN alternatives. They know they have a shrinking market place. Here is the problem look at how many of the GOP have oil and energy stock. They do not understand that the top execs in the oil have recognized solar is not going away it has entrenched itself with enough big investment that it is a force to be recognized.
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Steve Leone

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About: Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California. more »

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