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Germany Invests in Hydrogen Technology for Renewable Storage, Vehicles

By Miriam Widman, Contributor
February 6, 2012   |   18 Comments

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18 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 18
February 7, 2012
This is great stuff! I thought there had been an article on this before. I read about this a year ago, there it was about a test site from Fraunhofer IWES using -i guess- the same sabatier process. Could very well be that its about the same plant.

The thing is that it is not so much about the idea of producing electricity from hydrogen. Fact is that in germany wind power plants get shut down on a good windy day, because of overproduction. Thats a lot of power lost. The idea was now to use this energy and store it somehow.

What they do now is Biogas, which is to a good share Co2. They purify it to 95-99% pure methane.
For the next step there is 2 options which i dont understand in full as i dont have any idea of chemistry. Anyways I think what they do is co-electrolysis of Steam and the Co2 from the biogas, which results again in pure methane (and i think some CO). The other option would be transforming H2+Co2 into methane some other way... This stuff is then called SNG (synthetic natural gas) which can be stored lossless in the pipelines.

Up to here the process is also quite efficient. I think they stated that around 80-90% of the energy (that would otherwise be lost) get stored in the form of methane. There is a lot of research about electrodes and electrolytes. So far so good.

Problem is always conversion of the gas into useful energy. Now if we would use gas for cooking i suppose that energy could also be used quite efficiently, but i also suppose that it will get reconverted into electricity and another 70% loss. And then it gets applied (eg cooking) with another good loss.
Comment
2 of 18
February 7, 2012
Fraunhofers idea was to make Windpower able to cover base load on this way, as this can be used to buffer production. Will see about final results. But there is interesting things going on in with Hydrogen that go far beyond vehicles and mobility.

Thinking about developing countries for example where the needs are different. There is no overproduction but areas without electricity or other energy. People cook on wood or gas this can be an option for an enhanced regional cooking energy supply. Basic solarPV to cooking gas supply could be established, maybe even without battery. I mean even I can build a useless one that produces H2 in a plastic bottle from a 5W panel.

Garment factories need steam and therefore a gas supply. if those could be met off the grids, we could also influence migration and create jobs in remote areas.

Many things that can be thought of, if the process biogas+H2=a lot of methane can be done in a not too costly way, regardless of the original source of power.
Comment
3 of 18
February 8, 2012
This is good news. All the naysayers thinking it cant be done,well here is a group proving it is very doable, today not in 20 years. The Nuclear industry will kill us all before the people wake up. No more wars for oil. No more Fracking. No more mountaintop coal mining. I want Hydrogen power now , from H2O and solar and wind and hydro. Thank you Germany. Thank you Miriam Widman and REW.
Comment
4 of 18
February 8, 2012
This should surprise no one. It's all good. Even the general public knows that Germany is WAY out in front on instalations of PV. They huge in wind, boimass, biofuel and down sizing of personal transportation. So it seems likely that they will lead the world into the post oil world in other categories as well. We (the rest of the developed world) should be greatly thankful. Don't get me wrong, we will pay them for their technical info. But we should also look to them as leaders, and scold and embarass our congress for stalling progress when ever possible. Tell your friends, tell your family and most of all tell your congressmen at voting time ; Get Green or Get Gone.
Comment
5 of 18
February 8, 2012
I fail to see what the excitement is about: the Germans have done something that is green and technically feasible but expensive (read the last three paragraphs). Much like Solyndra. Likely to go the way of Solyndra, unless they can work out how to do it cheaply.
Comment
6 of 18
February 8, 2012
There are many problems with using H2 for storage and transport, look up articles by Prof. Ulf Bossel (a fuelcell expert) who supports EVs rather than HFCVs. I'm fully in favour of renewables and we will need massive amounts of storage but I don't think H2 is a viable route, the solution is synthetic green carbon fuels.

1. '120m3 of H2 per hour' is equivalent to about 423KW of power. By the time it is stored and then converted back to electricity you will have lost something over 50%. Therefore this initial €21M project will be for about 200KW power generation, or equivalent to about €200/W, more than 200x more expensive than a gas turbine power station. OK this is only a (big) trial, but it makes CCS (CO2 landfill) look quite attractive (financially).

2. '(H2) technology has improved to allow for 400Km (248 mi) of travel on one tank, compared to roughly 150Km (93 mi) for an electric battery-powered car'.
This is comparing best H2 with nominal battery performance. Tesla's Model S has a range of about 300 mi! This sort of information distortion to support a pet technology really annoys me. The only significant advantage H2 currently has over battery is refill time, there may be a moderate cost advantage but that is likely to reverse significantly in the next decade together with a substantial range increase. Converting electricity to H2 and then back to electricity only makes sense while battery costs are high. Figures I've seen for latest Zn-air battery tech suggests that life time battery costs of sub 1¢/KWh are not far away, current costs are probably about 20x higher

3. energizer:
Point of info: – 'transforming H2+CO2 into methane' IS the Sabatier process, and methane is a heck of a lot easier to store than H2, liquid and solid fuels (Carbon) are even easier.

4. edward-wilhelm...:
There is no point storing hydro power using H2, just leave it stored as hydro until it's required.

5. coenraad-pretorius...:
You're assesment is about right!
Comment
7 of 18
February 9, 2012
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (HFCV) vs battery (EV)

Tank to wheel efficiency, i.e. energy per mile or Km, for Honda HFCV is about 4.6 times worse than Tesla's Roadster EV; 690Wh/Km vs 150Wh/Km (Mackay ? Sustainable Energy Without the Hot Air, page 140; find @ www.WithoutHotAir.com). Even allowing for a performance doubling for HFCVs and only 20% for EVs this still makes EVs nearly 3x more efficient.

Looking at the energy supply side, i.e. well (Solar panel/turbine) to tank efficiencies. For EVs this is about 85%, (90% transmission and 95% Charging). For the HFCV this is about 58%; (90% transmission, electrolysis 80%, storage (compression) 80%). This gives an overall ratio of ~4.25:1. In other words it will take over 4 times more renewable resources, wind turbines, solar panels etc. to power a hydrogen transport system than a battery electric one.

Now look at costs, with this example it takes about €21M to generate 423KW of power, enough to power about 275 Honda HFCVs, that's about €76,000 of infrastructure per vehicle. EVs require a mains supply and a beefy charger, probably about €1000 at current rates.

The way I see it is that, the only long term problem with EVs will be charging (refuelling) time, 300miles for an EV requires about a 50KWh battery, a 5 minute charge at 240V would take 2,500 amps, not really practical, although 300Amps at 1000V for about 10 minutes might be, but it's still a challenge. However current ongoing developments in battery technology indicate that we should be able to have affordable EVs that could do about 1,000 miles on a charge within a couple of decades. I can't imagine any sensible person would want to drive further than this without a long enough break for a full recharge, for the driver and the car. For the non-sensible ones (Top Gear Presenters?) I'm sure there will still be a few ICEVs around.

By the way, I do not have any stake in the EV market; I?m just looking at the data.
Comment
8 of 18
February 9, 2012
some austrailians, MIT and other US research institutes are looking into materials for electrodes and electrolyte. its not only germany looking into this. NASA again wants to extend travel time in space using some kind of cycle using co2 from breathing and h2 for water and heating... whatever. Germany already uses hydrogene cells to power one or two submarines.

anyways thinking only vehicles is one thing. also the conversion back to electricity in general is only that efficient. the production of h2 itself though is cheap and efficient as far as i know. so the question is rather how that stuff can be used in a way that makes sense. it obviousely is a powerful heat source. make it useful as cooking gas somehow (known as gourmet gas) and you have the cheapest way to cook. cooking from electricity makes no sense if you think about it and costs a heck load of it. hydrogen home production can be done already its just lacking mass production and appliances.
Comment
9 of 18
February 10, 2012
http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/uploads/2012/01/GHG-emitters-2010.jpg

Dennis Baker
penticton bc canada V2A1P9
250-462-3796

dennisbaker2003@hotmail.com



How do we get there from here?

Think globally, and this is a global idea.
7 Billion humans generate vast quantities of excrement.
I believe this excrement is capable of providing all human electrical demands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiolysis

Right now hydrogen is perceived as a negative by product, of Nuclear Energy, when it should be the product, as the Pentagon has considered.


reference info

Request for Information (RFI) on Deployable Reactor Technologies ...
DARPA-SN-10-37@darpa.mil
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d0792af88a6a4484b3aa9d0dfeaaf553&...

Large scale conversions sites are intended to replace fossil fuel powered electrical facilities
Comment
10 of 18
February 10, 2012
Dear Ms. Miriam Widman:

You are doing a great service to the humankind by sharing your knowledge especially on the need to harness our much-need energy from the natural sources like the SUN, the WIND and the SEA.

I am an editor and publisher of a new bi-monthly energy/environment magazine from kerala, India. I would be pleased if you could contribute articles on any renewable energy topic you deem fit to our journal. If yes, please send it to me on: editor.energyblitz@gmail.com / moothedathramanathan@gmail.com

To know more about my renewable energy promotional activities as a journalist and solar energy buff, please click at the following link: http://www.energypulse.net/centers/author.cfm?at_id=999

With best regards,

solarically yours MRMenon aka 'solar menon' from India
===
Comment
11 of 18
February 10, 2012
“I believe this excrement is capable of providing all human electrical demands”

Believing is not enough, do the sums.

Average human (adult) daily excrement is about 150grams/5oz would produce about 0.1 to 0.2 KWh of bio-methane energy, probably closer to the lower value. 0.1KWh is about enough energy to boil 1 litre of water (3 mugs of tea) assuming near to 100% efficiency, or 1 cup if using electricity derived from biogas. Alternatively 0.1KWh is enough energy to drive about 1/10 of a mile in a car doing about 45mpg (45mpg = ~10miles/litre; 1 litre ~= 10KWh, therefore 1mile needs 1KWh of fuel), with western car mileage of around 30 miles per day this takes 300 people power. At this

I think we will all need to eat a hell of a lot more!

Also I think this is probably getting a bit off topic
Comment
12 of 18
February 10, 2012
I think there is a sewer system in almost every city in the world. What if you intercept the efluent, run it thru a biodigestor to extract the methane gas then send it on down the line to the sewerage treatment facility. The collection system is already in place. Once extracted the "biogas" is almost identical to petroleum "natural" gas, send it into the same existing lines that distribute natural gas and burn it in the same appliances that exist. LOTS of infrastructure already in place = cheap conversion.
Comment
13 of 18
February 11, 2012
Methane is 24 times than carbon as a GHG therefore the suggestion
of methane is moot!
You math regarding methane is again Moot!

Next
Comment
14 of 18
February 11, 2012
Biogas digesting is being used QUITE successfully in the UK,Finland,India,Germany and on limitted basis here in the US. But I'm so glad you know math, and can provide the world with your insight.
Comment
15 of 18
February 11, 2012
how many fossil fuel powered electrical generating facilities have been replaced by your technology?
Put out of service ?
Comment
16 of 18
February 11, 2012
Well Dennis, we could capture and burn methane that is 24 times more destructive to the atmosphere than CO2 with infrastructure that is largely in place, thereby burning less fossil fuel. Or we can do your all powerful math, that you no doubt are an expert in, and keep on burning fossil fuels at an escalating rate. So what do you propose? More of the same, or should we lean into the future?
We didn't leave the stone age because we ran out of rocks.We found something better. The cheapest fossil fuel IS GONE. We should be looking for something better. In my humble opinion, we should be using the "free stuff"(sun, wind,ocean currents and waste stream) more and more.And plan on digging non'renewable stuff out of the ground less and less ... to burn it?

But hey, maybe we already past the tipping point and it's all moot.So, SMOKE'M IF YA GOT'EM, and screw the world. A/K/A Drill Baby Drill. It's worked for the last hundred years, why change now?
Comment
17 of 18
February 11, 2012
http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/uploads/2012/01/GHG-emitters-2010.jpg

Dennis Baker
penticton bc canada V2A1P9
250-462-3796

dennisbaker2003@hotmail.com



How do we get there from here?

Think globally, and this is a global idea.
7 Billion humans generate vast quantities of excrement.
I believe this excrement is capable of providing all human electrical demands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiolysis

Right now hydrogen is perceived as a negative by product, of Nuclear Energy, when it should be the product, as the Pentagon has considered.


reference info

Request for Information (RFI) on Deployable Reactor Technologies ...
DARPA-SN-10-37@darpa.mil
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d0792af88a6a4484b3aa9d0dfeaaf553&...

Large scale conversions sites are intended to replace fossil fuel powered electrical facilities
No image available
Comment
18 of 18
Anonymous
February 13, 2012
The author writes: "The company has 440 wind installations that produce 1.5 billion kWh annually — enough to support the yearly energy needs of 1.5 million people."

This claim would suggest 1000 kWh/year would suffice for a person's energy needs. I suggest the number is way off the mark. German electricity usage in 2010 was about 620,000 GWh for a population of ~82 million people. This is already ~7600 kWh per person and only includes electricity; much of current energy needs in Germany were met with oil and gas (for heating, transportation, etc.).
Steven
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Miriam Widman

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About: I'm a journalist with more than 20 years experience in both radio and print. I was based in Oregon for many years but have been working out of Berlin, Germany s... more »

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