The Worlds #1 Renewable Energy Network for News & Information
Sign In or Register
Renewable Energy World Logo
Tuesday, May 21, 2013
  • Sections
    • Home
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Solar
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Wind
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Geothermal
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Bio
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Hydro
      • News
      • Opinion & Commentary
      • Featured Blogs
      • Research & Reports
      • Video
      • Press Releases
      • All Blogs
      • Events
      • Products
      • Finance
    • Careers
    • Companies
      • Company Directory
      • Press Releases
      • Products
      • Events Calendar
      • White Papers
    • Webcasts
      • All Webcasts
      • Featured Webcasts
      • Upcoming Webcasts
      • Archived Webcasts
      • Events Calendar
    • White Papers
    • Magazines
      • Renewable Energy World
      • Wind Technology
      • Large Scale Solar
      • Hydro Review
      • HRW - Hydro Review Worldwide
      • Renewable Energy World (North America Edition)
      • Photovoltaics World
    • Awards
  • Account
    • Sign In
    • Register
  • Search
Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Making Way for a Bigger Turbine

Innovations in blade and gearbox technology and a growing adoption of new materials are helping the wind industry bring down costs through increased performance.

Steve Leone, Associate Editor, RenewableEnergyWorld.com
January 19, 2012  |  71 Comments

They stand as looming testaments to innovation, growing ever more prominent and powerful. Yet for much of 2011, wind installations remained somewhat obscured, eclipsed by the media storm surrounding the solar industry.

The truth of the matter is, however, that the wind industry bounced back from a disappointing 2010 with a surge in both installations and sales. The wind industry quietly and methodically continues to forge ahead, and today it dominates the renewable energy landscape in new installations.

Through October (the most recent numbers available by press time), the wind industry placidly posted three strong quarters behind a steady drop in prices and the realization that Congress may not extend the Production Tax Credit (PTC) past its December 2012 expiration date. According to the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA), through the first three quarters of 2011, the wind industry installed 29 wind farms larger in total capacity than the biggest solar project installed during that same period.

With the wind industry eager to continue its momentum with or without the PTC, two things are clear: turbines must get bigger and engineers must work to drive down costs. It’s a proven formula that’s paying dividends beyond the traditional stronghold of the Midwest, as the technology becomes a bigger part of the landscape in places like New York, Massachusetts and Maine.

But how to get there, and from where will the cost gains come? Dan Shreve, a partner with Make Consulting, says his company is looking at just that and has come out with a new report on wind turbine trends. The report breaks down the materials used for components like hubs and blades, and projects how a component’s cost impacts its performance. Sometimes, more costly materials can open the door to cost-savings with other components. Engineers have found this to be the case with rotors, where new materials and novel approaches are pushing costs down and performance up. The result, though, is a turbine capable of better returns.

How Big Can They Get?

Fort Felker, Director of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) Wind Technology Center, remembers a time when many questioned whether the industry had hit the ceiling with the height and capacity ratings for wind turbines. Today, those same folks might be shocked to learn that companies like GE are actively working to build turbines that reach into the 10- or even 15-MW range. Few are skeptical anymore that eventually we’ll get to those scales.

“The landscape is littered with people who predicted turbines couldn’t get any bigger,” said Felker. “They said that at 50 kW. They said that at 100 kW. They said that at half a MW and they said that at 1 MW. It’s just silly to predict a limitation because again and again, the industry has found ways to innovate to get past technology barriers that are perceived at any given size.”

Technological barriers aside, it is market conditions that serve as the real driving force behind the growth of turbine capacity. To become more powerful, turbines must get bigger. But there’s a growing friction between developers coming to town with wind behemoths and local residents questioning how the turbines will impact the landscape. Nowhere is this conversation as vocal as it is in places like bucolic New England, which prizes its rolling hills and its scenic views.  

Today, it’s not unusual to see the installation of a 3-MW turbine, though most remain smaller than that. We’re seeing 5- to 7-MW turbines in the offshore markets of Europe. The giants we’re likely to see in the future will mostly be offshore, where there are usually fewer logistical constraints and not-in-my-backyard objections. Eventually, mega-turbines will be installed in deep water far offshore on floating platforms. Their assembly will be done on land and they’ll be shipped relatively intact to their final destination where they’ll “drop anchor,” so to speak. This convergence of large turbines and, eventually, of floating platforms and new transmission, could also make assembly far easier.

Wind turbine manufacturer Gamesa, though, is bucking the notion that large turbines will be pushed offshore. It has recently introduced a 4.5-MW onshore turbine that is taking an innovative approach to common transportation and assembly hurdles that larger turbines face. As rotors get bigger, they can handle much longer blades. But the longer the blades get, the more difficult it becomes to transport them on roads, rails and bridges, and around power lines and curves. Gamesa gets around this by shipping the blades in two pieces and assembling them on site.

For Felker, this is further evidence that companies will find creative ways to get around perceived limitations and build bigger and bigger turbines. It does, though, bring up a new set of challenges, according to Shreve. “Construction costs money and it adds complexity. Wind farms are generally not the most hospitable environments and having to take on larger levels of on-site assembly presents a great deal of new challenges to project developers.”

Bigger Rotors, Better Materials

There’s a race on right now as manufacturers push to dramatically increase wind turbine’s power and economics and to do that, many are focusing on increasing the size of the rotor while being mindful of load and costs.

One way to cut costs and/or increase performance is through innovative materials. Many turbine makers are analyzing the cost benefits of switching from fiberglass to alternative materials like carbon fiber, which is prized for its ability to reduce weight and increase performance. Because it’s been prohibitively expensive, most manufacturers that use carbon fiber do so exclusively in the blade spar and the spar caps, an area considered the primary structural element for the blade. “It’s about clever utilization of the material. Effectively, they’re doing this to get the best bang for the buck,” said Shreve. “They’re trying to achieve the rigidity, the stiffness required to enable the system’s operation. This is critical for larger rotor diameter.”

Though carbon fiber will remain expensive in the near future, Felker sees a couple of paths to significantly bring down its cost. One is an innovation being made in the airline industry. Boeing has introduced its 787 jet, which uses carbon fiber reinforced materials for about 50 percent of its airframe. The quantities produced to service that aircraft will create a more vibrant market for carbon fiber, and this should ultimately push down its cost. Felker also pointed to research being done at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. There, researchers have launched a consortium with 14 companies to push the development and commercial application of low-cost carbon fiber.

Viewing Page 1 of 2

  • Next Page

71 Comments

Register To Comment
ANONYMOUS
February 20, 2012
This was actually quite a good article. With commercial wind, LCOE is all that matters. Like most things, turbine LCOE benefits from economy of scale. In this regard bigger turbines are usually better.

As for direct drive turbines, they will likely not pan out. Their only perceived advantage was elimination of the gearbox. But gearboxes have rapidly gotten better, while the cost of large DD PM generators has skyrocketed.

While it might not sound sexy, the future of commercial wind is larger on-shore turbines using conventional gearbox drivetrains.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 7, 2012
Good Tom. We lose >10,000 Americans.year just from breathing coal-plant emissions. This is the 1998 Swiss report...

PSI Bericht Nr. 98-16, ISSN-1019-0643, "Severe Accidents in the Energy Sector"

Here are some nuke works...
www.monbiot.com/2011/11/22/how-the-greens-were-misled/ (fraud)
www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/low-dose-NSWS-shipyard.pdf (shipyard health)
http://tinyurl.com/4xqwzjc
http://tinyurl.com/3nwjboz
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 7, 2012
No one's dissing local PV, Matt, or didn't you read what I wrote at the beginning of this?
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 7, 2012
Renewable energy keeps going down in price while nuclear and fossil fuels go up.

example: Rooftop Solar in the last 12 months the panels have halved in cost. In the last 24 months the systems have halved in cost. They only have to halve again and they will significantly undercut electricity retailers in the retail market. Allowing for PV to take over 15-30% of total electricity supply.

PV is the only renewable technology that gets to compete in the retail market.

That advantage can't be matched by anything, and with that advantage costs will come down further as scale goes up and then PV will undercut in the wholesale market as well.
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 7, 2012
Be careful what you predict about wind and solar, Matty Boy, they said the same thing about nuclear back in the 60's... too cheap to meter. In fact they were saying that about wind and solar thirty years ago, too, and unlike you I was there to hear it.

As to projects taking years to complete, most of those delays are in the courtroom and bureaucracy, not the actual construction, and the same will increasingly happen with wind as more people are asked to live beneath it.

For example, for decades the great environmentalist and green energy proponent Joe Kennedy and his deceased uncle Ted have been generating fifty times the average carbon footprint jetting around between mansions while also fighting off the Cape Wind project in THEIR own back yard.

"Do as we say, not as we do"
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
Nuclear isn't about the deaths - it's about the costs.

The cost of having an entire nation without a major part of its energy supply for months.

If 1 or 2 or 3 reactors have a failure, the cascading effect is that all reactors are turned off.

If 1 wind turbine has a catastrophic failure the other 1000s are left running and there is no noticeable difference to the supply from that source.

Also Areva world's biggest nuclear tech company.

Can't even put together a nuclear plant in Finland.

Finland Areva plant - commenced construction 2004 due 2008 then they announced delay to 2009, then 2010 then 2012 then 2013 and today they are claiming August 2014.

9 years + to build, and so expensive that Siemens the world's second biggest energy tech company took a major hit on its 2009 results because of that one nuclear power plant.

Wind and Solar will be 'too cheap to meter' and are getting cheaper.

Nuclear plants keep going up in cost due to added safety requirements after all the disasters and mishaps they inevitably have.
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 6, 2012
Dr. Alex, I found what I was looking for:

Energy Source Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average 161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China 278
Coal – USA 15
Oil 36 (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas 4 (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass 12
Peat 12
Solar (rooftop) 0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind 0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro 0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao) 1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear 0.04 (5.9% of world energy)
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 6, 2012
Hi:

Such "fuzzy" logic for someone who reports on their web info to have a BSEE...
Thorium is a fuel when used in a reactor...period...
It doesn't matter how much it costs or where it comes from..
Once its expended, its expended...
Argue and play with semantics all you want..
The sited RE's above are direct energy sources... a fuel is a fuel... end of story..
Try some ginkgo biloba.. it may help with your brain clarity... improving circulation and all..
I'm still looking for that 5 leaf clover next to my wind turbine and PV panels...

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 6, 2012
Bill, thanks for the verbose instruction. You reveal no knowledge of what various researchers & Nobellists explained >50 years ago. So you misspeak without thought that you could ever, ever be wrong.

That trait is why it's child's play to debunk what folks like you say without apparent conscious control.

Thorium, for example, is a waste product of the very rare-earth materials mining (neodymium...) needed for wind generators, cell phones, EVs, yadda, yadda. It is, therefore as 'free' as anything you claim for "..solar, wind, shallow or deep geo, tidal, wave, etc." You've bought the terms but not the facts.

The US alone has a stockpile of Th in NV that can run all US power generation for a decade. The yearly Th waste from just 1, 1000-acre rare-earth mine that REs need will run the entire world for over a year.

So, this may be a shock, but 'renewables' cost energy every day, with solar PV on local structures being least problematic for initial energy consumption, maintenance/replacement, power loss, environmental impacts...

And yes, build-out of silly wind farms in Calif. not only killed 2 workers last year, it now threatens our golden eagles & condors. So wind fanatics, while making $ off subsidies, clearly aren't either honest engineers or environmentalists. Such a joke!
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 6, 2012
Bill, I've been working on dilithium crystals ever since I watched Star Trek as a kid:)

But you are absolutely right about having sound business models with a reliable revenue stream, and without them you have no private sector capital formation or venture capital for such large projects. In fact you basically have no private sector economy, entrepreneurship, invention or innovation to strangle, thus little collective wealth beyond the ability to feed the citizens, most socialist and communist countries run by masterminds barely able to do even that no matter how much liberty they deny their indentured subjects.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 6, 2012
Hi:

Oh my.. my...
How defensive for simply putting a face to all the pro nuke posts...
No mis-guidance from me... didn't comment in this thread at all except to state the obvious that you are a pro nuke person.. consistently in all your posts...

Dr AlexC aside... One has to remember as a general "built in factor" to the whole structure of energy business and really business itself, is that businesses that have a reoccurring aspect to their "model" are more desirable than one shot up fronts, even if maintenance is still a factor. Energy supply in particular has the three hot buttons, up front equipment, fuel, and maintenance of aforementioned systems. Most RE, I.E. solar, wind, shallow or deep geo, tidal, wave, etc. all have free energy because there is no fuel. So, one of the three hot buttons (revenue streams) is inherently missing. So all other considerations aside, they will be 1/3 less appealing for "business", other factors being equal.
It is really common sense if one gives it a bit of thought. Garbage collection, city water supply, grid electricity, hydrocarbon fuels, a hair cut, washing your car, your phone bill, insurance, food, etc.. on and on.. all are great business models because the customer will / has to keep coming back on a regular basis. Putting a solar system on a house, a harder business model.. After all, if you do it right you may not see them again for 20 years... less attractive as a money maker...
A supplier of Thorium fuel to supply energy for the world that you cannot get on your own, just like the products of black crude... now there is an attractive $$$$$$ model...

.....Bill
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 6, 2012
How "base load" is a source that only achieves rated capacity 30% of the time, such times being totally beyond our control?

"Likely" killing people? How many have died so far, and what percentage of the overall earthquake and tsunami deaths have been due to radiation exposure?

As to the quake itself causing the containment breach, I have not seen anything other than speculation in that matter, that all the data so far suggests it was the explosions resulting from the lack of cooling. Even if one of the containment vessels did crack at the moment of the quake, that itself would not have resulted in radiation release as long as the core remained intact. Besides, despite your hopeful predictions of massive radiation deaths I can assure you that the deaths per megawatt hour for radiation release from the FD complex in its lifetime is far less than the deaths per megawatt hour of global wind generation over the past thirty years... not to mention that Fukushima probably has generated more power than all the pinwheels combined during that period as well.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
Fukushima containment cracked during the earth quake.

The cooling as the only problem theory (which was the earlier prevailing position of TEPCO) has been debunked.

How "baseload" is an energy source that delivers ZERO electricity for months on end likely killing people through exposure.
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 6, 2012
Yeah, and if the Japs replaced all their nuclear with a base load equivalent of wind they would have no birds left alive and STILL be without light, heat or industry whenever the wind stopped blowing or a typhoon passed by.

Keep in mind that the failure of FD had nothing to do with the fact that it was nuclear, only that the cooling pumps were mounted about 30 feet too low. It it had been a fossil plant they still would have had to shut it down. The latest generation reactor technology has thermo-siphon cooling for back up during unanticipated scrams and does not pose such a threat.

Finally, if you look at the dead and injured due to the failure of the FD plant it is but a tiny fraction of those who perished due to the earthquake and tsunami itself, so you might as well blame the deaths of the airline passengers who died in the 9/11 attacks on the fact that they were flying in stratosphere-polluting, weather altering jet aircraft instead of lapse security or terrorism... If they had been on a windmill powered electric train it never would have happened.

I don't know if anybody has ever run the numbers, but I would not be surprised to learn that more deaths can be attributed to wind power, workers falling or aircraft collisions, etc., than radiation exposure from nuclear power plants, especially on a death per megawatt hour basis.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 6, 2012
Wow! I wasn't going to comment anymore for Matt's silliness, but now we see William wants to be his handmaiden -- cool!

That's an old link William! Here, so you can do better next time: www.thoriumenergyalliance.com/downloads/TEAC3%20presentations/TEAC3_Cannara_Alex.pdf

Note what I talk about -- climate, solar, efficiency, nuclear -- all components of the solution rather than the problem. But you & Matt seem comfortable in misleading innocent folks around the world for your own personal gain. So be it. Just stop whining when you're fibs are called out. Man up.

Maybe even come to the next conference: 31 May. Lots of honest environmentalists do. Could be a maturing experience.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
People are dying of exposure because of nuclear energy and you have no retort. Just some rubbish about life coaching.

With ZERO nuclear reactors running should the Japanese.

A. Ditch their lighting, the country over (reducing work hours and making many buildings unusable)

B. Ditch heating (risking exposure)

C. Close down industry and give up on much of their economy.

You can only answer A, B or C because lets face it - with 54 reactors turned off it looks nothing like Baseload and it looks nothing like energy security.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 6, 2012
Hi:

Guys...DrC is a heavy pro nuke person, particularly Thorium...
If you want a closer look.. here is a short blurb with mug shot...
You can 'launch' from this info and explore further if you like...

http://svctss20110616energy.eventbrite.com/

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 6, 2012
You need to get a life away from your PC/phone, Matt. You're just confirming a need for life coaching.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
Dear Alex,

Japan is heading towards ZERO nuclear power plants operating by April.

0% capacity factor. what do you do when all the reactors are turned off?

How do you run your grid? Do people turn off their lights, there heaters, or does industry shutdown.

What does this do to their economy?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 6, 2012
Matt, you make it so easy! Do you realize how much energy you've wasted with your blather here? -- PCs, servers, network interfaces, transmission systems... You've been yakking so much here you might as well be out driving a Hummer instead!

But, I'll humor your limited thought:

"So, where are you an engineer?" -- everywhere, especially in Calif. USA.

"Who do you work for?" -- it's "whom" Mr. "I'm oh so smart" -- evil people who burn coal & oil to make windmills -- just kidding, couldn't resist. I work for anyone who wants honest engineering consulting, including environmental groups I'm a member of. I'll bet I support more environmental groups and activities than you know.

"Who pays you?" -- the Mafia. You talkin' t'me? I take $ from anyone with a good environmental record, apparently unlike you.

"Who do you educate?" -- "Whom", can you practice that please? -- everyone I can, in college or out, but with you, it's like trying to eat Jello with chopsticks (you do know Jello, right?)

"What energy sources are in your local district?" -- this is Calif., don't you know?

"Do your students get jobs in nuclear power." -- well, you couldn't, but then my students are generally readers & thinkers, sorry Matt. The answer to your sophistic probe is "don't know, don't care (unless they got A's)".

"You say black is white." -- guess you can't see the difference, eh? Do you really not see how desperate you come across? I mean apart from your willing burps of misinformation, we're all clear on your apparent inability to read when facts are challenging to your mindset.

But, this is my main fun, each hour, Matt. Keep it up!
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
You would think for someone purporting to be so skilled that you would take a much more rational approach to your analysis of the energy landscape.

So, where are you an engineer? Who do you work for? Who pays you? Who do you educate? What energy sources are in your local district? Do your students get jobs in nuclear power.

You say black is white.

You say high capacity factors for nuclear when Japan is running at 5% capacity factor for its fleet.

95% of them are turned off. OUCH!

Sorry Car Industry, sorry Panasonic who have lost $10 Billion this year because of the Nuclear Foley amongst other things.

Must apologise to the owners of $20 Billion worth of heavy industrial plant that is idle in the prefecture post Fukushima.

Perhaps you could apologise to the Ukrainian kids now grown up (if they're lucky) and sickly who came to our scout group when we were children and had lost their hair from the fallout amongst other physical effects from this dangerous source of death and disablement.

Not pretty. What you advocate harms people in a hideous and insidious way.

And just a reminder China has FROZEN construction of nuclear facilities post Fukushima. Going to deny that as well?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 6, 2012
Very good, Matt. And if your ~500 others were to read what you didn't read above, and read what you wrote above, they might reconsider any advice you choose to give, for whatever your motives are.

Myself, juat an engineer & statistician & educator -- no ties to making $ off being misleading to folks who care about the environment. Facts are important to me, and most everyone else.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 6, 2012
I am an honest young person who along with a bunch of others people of all ages - over 500 people across Australia, we work together on climate and energy solutions, including solutions for energy supply, transport, buildings, industrial processes and export revenue.

What' your business DrAlexC?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 5, 2012
Aha, so you're in the business to fib, eh MAtt? Got it. Good to see how assess your 'facts' now.

Keep up the PR! Some day it might mean something.
;]
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 5, 2012
China has frozen construction of Nuclear reactors until (hopefully for the nuclear industry) late this year.

6 reactors up for approval may have to resubmit plans with Gen II I designs adding further delays.

China does not get the local content advantage from Gen III reactors which will significantly shift their enthusiasm.

By 2020 while nuclear reactor after nuclear reactor around the world stuffs up, and they can see across the strait in Japan where 54/54 reactors are off. The Chinese will have 200GW of wind producing more electricity than all of China's nuclear reactors.

By 2050 they will have 35-40% wind power (their target today stands at 17% 1000GW) but in reality they will be on 2000-3000GW by 2050.

Every wind target they have beat by a mile, they are missing their nuclear targets with a complete FREEZE on construction and planning in the wake of the fallout from the Fukushima nuclear disaster.

I am an independent climate and energy researcher and proud of it - see Beyond Zero Emissions dot org

We are sponsored by private members and our Baseload renewable suporters - you can become one too for just $25 AUD a month
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 5, 2012
There you go again, Matt. If you actually read what you selectively extract & thought better of us having to plow through your misinformation, you'd have noted 20 Chinese reactors approved for construction since 2008 & that what has happened is simply taking more care (with US & WANO help) to approve future designs based on best safety...

"The country had been accelerating its nuclear development since 2008, with 14 reactors approved in 2008 and six in 2009..."Projects that had already received approval before the suspension will likely start construction in the second half of this year," according to Xiao. China had six new projects approved before the Japanese nuclear crisis. The country will see a boom in the construction of nuclear projects between 2013 and 2015, according to Xiao's estimates. The State Council, China's cabinet, is currently reviewing the plans outlining the country's nuclear targets and routes. The nation is likely to introduce third-generation (3G) nuclear technology in all future plants because of more stringent safety standards. So, from your own link, 20 reactors are/will be under construction in this year..."

So, what's your point? You say reactors aren't safe. You can't prove anything but the opposite. You make ignorant statements about wind & can't even read what's given you, or what you find.

So Matt, if 20, 1GWe reactors are indeed in approved construction now in China, how many 5MW, top-line windmills would have to be erected & connected via new roads & transmission lines by 2020 to equal the 24/7 output of just those 20 reactors? C'mon, you can divide 20,000,000,000 by 5,000,000 and then by 0.3, for wind capacity, to get the number.

Here, I'll help, it's over 13,000, 100m windmills. We won't even ask you to compute the transmission cost, loss, and other grid components needed to make up for wind variability.

Be honest Matt, are you just uninterested in facts, or do you have $ invested in wind?
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 5, 2012
Dear Alex,

China has stopped building their 100 reactors. Your news is from pre - Fukushima.

Latest news on China. No more outdated dangerous 2nd generation reactors. And at most 3-4 reactors per year.

So for 100 reactors that would take 25 years. But before that time wind and solar will be so much cheaper that the Chinese will abandon reactor building.

A much newer and more up-to-date article than yours

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-02/01/content_14514229.htm
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 5, 2012
Matt, you apparently can;'t handle the facts already given you. That's your 'Areva' moment? Go tell China to stop building their ~100 reactors, because your wind is so much better...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/a-less-mighty-wind
www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21tttransmission.html?_r=1&hpw

Oops, maybe they won't listen? You're not even selling up-to-date stuff: http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13430
;]
Just love this one: http://tinyurl.com/bl9vlc7
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 5, 2012
How many years overdue is the pathetic Areva Gen III in Finland?

Please advise.

And tell me. If the world's biggest nuclear technology company has diversified into Wind Power (Multibrid 5MW turbines) and Solar Thermal (Ausra CLFR and Power Tower) while they can't even deliver one measly nuclear plant or win a contract anywhere. Then it's obvious to anyone who has two eyes that this is an industry that is upto its neck and in the process of being buried.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 5, 2012
Keep it up, Matt! Now you show your desperate fear, shared with the fossil companies, of nuclear's ability to make them as irrelevant as wind.

Here's how relevant Exxon, Shell, etc., even BP, think your wasteful 'power towers' & wind 'farms' are...
www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle800.do?categoryId=9037134&contentId=7068677

The fossil folks love 'renewables' because they get subsidies from them and know they can't be a threat. So, are you a closet fossil burner, or just unaware of the engineering & environmental foolishnesses of wind & solar 'farms'.

Given the examples you list, you clearly have no grasp of thermodynamics. What else will you show us you don't know and are afraid to know?

This is fun!
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 5, 2012
Nuclear is in decline, the half life of the Nuclear industry is now 15 years.

In 30 years the industry will be completely erased from the energy supply systems of the world.

Wind Power (large turbines up at 130Metre and above hub heights) will trend towards 50% of global energy, Solar PV will reach 30% of global energy and the balance will be molten salt storage power towers (Torresol Energy, Brightsource and Solar Reserve) and pumped hydro storage and a small residual of biofuels for firming in some regions.

These sources will all grow as we electrify transportation and convert to heat pumps for renewable ambient heat/electric heating.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 5, 2012
Keep trying Matt! One say you'll get something right!

You obviously don't understand radiation & health, but you could. Of course, you also don't seem to care about the 18,000+ Japanese killed by the quake & tsunami simply because their government allowed dangerous land to be built upon. You obviously also don't know of the ancestral stone tablets all along the Sendai coast saying "Don't build closer to the sea than this". One town with such a marker obeyed it and is fine.

But, how many of the 18,000+ dead people died from Fukushima being built poorly & in the wrong place? 2 -- from falling debris in the turbine hall, before the tsunami, before any reactor events. How many have died from radiation exposure, even as workers inside the reactors? None.

You also show you know nothing about radiation & health. You could, if you ever read anything to learn.

Nuclear power remains the safest form of generation ever deployed by mankind. You don't even show honest gumption to acknowledge its current, superior >90% capacity factor in our own country, even when the daily data are at your fingertips.

So, the conclusion we all can draw is that you'll say anything that pleases you and misleads others. That's hardly a respectable trait, Matt, ol' boy.

But keep it up!
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 5, 2012
The facts are clear to anyone who can do a simple search on google news.

The fallout from nuclear is just too great.

Japan has 54 nuclear reactors.

Only 3 of these are in service.

Capacity factor of all the nuclear reactors in Japan is now down at 5%.

You cannot plan and run a modern economy on such as horrendously expensive source of electricity that has such pathetically low system wide capacity factors.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 4, 2012
Again, Matt you don't read & study, but you expect the absurdities you utter to be believed. Your inability to read even the documentation of real capacity factors shows you have some agenda other than truth.

It' ok, you can be part of the problem, because others will solve it despite you.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 4, 2012
I never said that Germany has closed its reactors I said they are closing their reactors.

Again capacity factor in Japan is less than 5%

That is a serious problem, you plan around nuclear plants being available to generate 85% of the time and yet they're only available 5% of the time.

In Francce they are struggling during the cold snap and prices up and some big nuclear plants are off line and there power is no where to be seen when the French need it most.

**250 people have died already across Europe due to the cold snap and the French nuclear situation is not helping.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 4, 2012
I have never worked in the Wind or Solar industry but after changing my mind on Nuclear (I'm a convert to Solar and Wind) I have been advocating renewable energy, fearlessly and independently of any financial/family/associate or other interest. I'm always after a better argument but the pro nuke propaganda playing out here is not that.

Nuclear powered France struggling through cold snap, people would be freezing except they can import power from Switzerland and Italy.

While solar is performing well in Germany through the cold snap.
af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL5E8D31T720120203

France baseload electricity price averaging 115 Euros

Germany baseload electricity prices up a little to 71.50 Euros

Much cheaper and safer to be in significantly renewable powered Germany
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
You're great Matt, you must be in the business, unless Vestas laid you off too. You don't read, but you do spout!

"Nuclear power plants have shocking capacity factors."

Indeed >90% capacity factor would be "shocking" to anyone pushing windmills. Wow, look at all those 100s!...
www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/reactor-status/ps.html

Let's see how our vast Calif wind installs are doing...
www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html
Oops.

Here's how the Euro grid actually suffers wind's variability and increased costs...
http://energy.sia-partners.com/?p=149

It would be nice though if you'd make up your mind -- one time saying Germany's closed its nukes, then that half are running. Let us know when you're telling us the truth, eh Matt?

So I guess you're going to help pay for the 300MW Denmark has to keep ready when their wind forecasts miss by <1m/s? Or are you going to help pay Germany's carbon tax, or nuke shutdown costs?...
www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105

www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

Maybe you can put some of the bonusses you're gonna get pushing windmills on unsuspecting folks? OR are you tapped into a subsidy?

It would help if we knew the monetary driver that keeps you from the facts and lets you dump fibs on folks.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 2, 2012
I have to laugh, Tom waltzes in here after DrAlexC takes a hit on his ridiculous anti-wind arguments.

Nuclear - Areva is diversifying out of Nuclear buying Wind and Solar companies.

Nuclear - France has higher wholesale electricity prices than Germany.

Nuclear - During this weeks cold snap in Europe, France (74% Nuclear) has been 'propped up' importing electricty from Germany, a country that has switched off half of its Nuclear capacity.

Nuclear - France will change governments at the next election. The new centre left government will retire half of the French Nuclear Fleet.

Wind - 50% Wind power by 2020 Denmark

Wind - 1000GW China.

In 200 years wind turbines of today will be replaced 2 or 3 times with much more efficient bigger wind turbines that generate more electricity at less cost.

A bunch of countries will still be paying to manage their nuclear waste legacy and will really be unhappy that their forefathers made such a huge mistake in travelling this path.

They'll also be paying through reduced economic conditions due to toying with the nuclear boondaggle.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Very right Tom. And it appears Matt hasn't bothered to study what "fast" actually means for reactors, and why they were and are expensive experiments.

But Matt, if you do advocate responsibility in energy & the environment, when will you come by to clean our ;70s stuff up & recycle it?...

http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/

Yep, thought not.
;]
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
February 2, 2012
Matt, I have been watching your volley with Dr. Alex with some amusement. First, all the existing turbines need to be built with existing infrastructure and steel mills at existing cost, both financial and environmental, otherwise you might just as well talk about making the pinwheels from Scotty's "transparent steel", eliminating the eyesore as well, and transport them into position with the anti-gravity technology we have been keeping secret at Area 51.

Second, you seem to forget that Japan just had a major earthquake that took out most of their nuclear capacity, and Germany and others are reconsidering not because of economics but because of hysteria that did not exist prior to that earthquake.

Finally, when you talk of all these lofty targets, like China projecting 25% wind forty years from now, you completely discount the idea that better, actually financially sound technology will arise in the meantime. My prediction is that fifty or a hundred years from now there may indeed be tens of thousands of wind mills around but virtually all of them will be decommissioned or nothing will remain of them but their thousand ton concrete lily pad.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 2, 2012
The Chinese have expanded their wind target to 17% of all electricity by 2050

100GW 2015
200GW 2020
1000GW 2050

The Danes have brought forward their 50% wind target.
Denmark 50% by 2020 -- half the world's power will be wind.

The Fast reactor included a commercial size 280MW unit - test reactors are in the 20kW range not 280MW - Alex you're dreaming
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
You make it just too easy, Matt! "Japan is a western country" -- really? Do they know?

"Japan Fast-breeder reactor faces closure" -- it's always been about closed, because it's an experiment, not a power plant. It's an experiment that we chose to waste $ on too, when Nixon admitted he didn't understand nukes and agreed to fund it instead of what the world is now moving to. Watch Nixon do the deed here... www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbyr7jZOllI&mid=5618117

Germany hasn't closed all reactors, don't you read?

Finland has one delayed reactor? Ooooooh.

Take some time to read & study before writing. Then someone might accept what you say.

And you apparently have no concept of how weak wind power is. So check that ref I last gave you and maybe check what the Chinese are discovering as well...
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/a-less-mighty-wind
www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21tttransmission.html?_r=1&hpw

Maybe you can volunteer to help them move those thousands of tons of steel & concrete per tower?
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 2, 2012
DR AlexC
Reality Check

#1 Japan is a western country and has 51 reactors turned off.
They only have 3 reactors turned on - By April they will have Zero.
#2 Today's Sydney Morning Herald Feb 02, 2012
Japan Fast-breeder reactor faces closure
After they wasted $13 Billion dollars on this boondoggle of a failure

#3 Agence France Presse Feb 01, 2012
German unemployment keeps falling
Lowest since unification - they have closed nuclear and backed renewables.

#4 Reuters
Finland's Olkiluoto 3 reactor delayed to Aug '14 Dec 13, 2011
Started in 2004 they claimed they'd be finished in 2008 then 2009 then 2012 then 2013 and now 2014 - more than $4 Billion over budget

#5 China Daily
Nuclear approvals to be resumed at slower rate
China to put serious brakes on nuclear program
China to no longer build dangerous 2nd generation plants.
China loses local content advantage as 3rd gen is all imported content
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you can also see how silly your remarks about nuke uptime are from just this one example...
http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2010/03/uptime-downtime_07.html

The wind output graph for the same region is pitiful, while the region's nukes are full up >90% of the time. But do check the worldwide figures from WANO, EPRI, even NRC. Here's today's report...
www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/reactor-status/ps.html

It's a wonderment why folks who claim environmental concern, fib on the facts of 'renewables'. Maybe they really shill for Peabody, Exxon, etc?
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you need to read more about real nuke figures in all Western countries -- the utilization factor for standard LWRs beats everything save hydro. And, if you want to see why Germany & Japan will soon have serious financial trouble if they do shut nukes, just read away...

www dot pointcarbon dot com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www dot miningaustralia dot com.au/news/australian-and-czech-consortium-announce-thorium-j
www dot reuters dot com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

http colon slash slash spectrum.ieee dot org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

www dot world-nuclear-news dot org/NP_Eye_watering_cost_of_renewable_revolution_2301121 dot html?utm_so

www dot world-nuclear-news dot org/NP_Japanese_trade_figures_reveal_cost_of_nuclear_shutdown_2501121 dot html

Then see why China & ROW will be eating our lunch, if we don't wise up...
www dot greenprophet dot com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

http colon slash slash oilprice dot com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Full-Speed-Ahead-For-Chinas-Nuclear-Program dot html

http colon slash slash ibnlive dot in dot com/generalnewsfeed/news/only-nuclear-energy-will-help-india-produce-more-electricity/946894 dot html

Maybe even Google the Kachan Cleantech report to Congress on 1/23.

Gonna put some $ in the pot to help the Germans pay their mongo carbon tax, if they are dumb enough to de-nuke?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you need to read more about real nuke figures in all Western countries -- the utilization factor for standard LWRs beats everything save hydro. And, if you want to see why Germany & Japan will soon have serious financial trouble if they do shut nukes, just read away...

www dot pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www dot miningaustralia.com.au/news/australian-and-czech-consortium-announce-thorium-j

www dot reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

http colon slash slash spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

www dot world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Eye_watering_cost_of_renewable_revolution_2301121.html?utm_so

www dot world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Japanese_trade_figures_reveal_cost_of_nuclear_shutdown_2501121.html

Then see why China & ROW will be eating our lunch, if we don't wise up...
www dot greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

http colon slash slash oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Full-Speed-Ahead-For-Chinas-Nuclear-Program.html

http colon slash slash ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/only-nuclear-energy-will-help-india-produce-more-electricity/946894.html

Maybe even Google the Kachan Cleantech report to Congress on 1/23.

Gonna put some $ in the pot to help the Germans pay their mongo carbon tax, if they are dumb enough to de-nuke?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you need to read more about real nuke figures in all Western countries -- the utilization factor for standard LWRs beats everything save hydro. And, if you want to see why Germany & Japan will soon have serious financial trouble if they do shut nukes, just read away...

www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/australian-and-czech-consortium-announce-thorium-j

www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

http colon slash slash spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Eye_watering_cost_of_renewable_revolution_2301121.html?utm_so

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Japanese_trade_figures_reveal_cost_of_nuclear_shutdown_2501121.html

Then see why China & ROW will be eating our lunch, if we don't wise up...
www.greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

http colon slash slash oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Full-Speed-Ahead-For-Chinas-Nuclear-Program.html

http colon slash slash ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/only-nuclear-energy-will-help-india-produce-more-electricity/946894.html

Maybe even Google the Kachan Cleantech report to Congress on 1/23.

Gonna put some $ in the pot to help the Germans pay their mongo carbon tax, if they are dumb enough to de-nuke?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you need to read more about real nuke figures in all Western countries -- the utilization factor for standard LWRs beats everything save hydro. And, if you want to see why Germany & Japan will soon have serious financial trouble if they do shut nukes, just read away...

www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/australian-and-czech-consortium-announce-thorium-j

www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

http: slash slash spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Eye_watering_cost_of_renewable_revolution_2301121.html?utm_so

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Japanese_trade_figures_reveal_cost_of_nuclear_shutdown_2501121.html

Then see why China & ROW will be eating our lunch, if we don't wise up...
www.greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

http: slash slash oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Full-Speed-Ahead-For-Chinas-Nuclear-Program.html

http: slash slash ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/only-nuclear-energy-will-help-india-produce-more-electricity/946894.html

Maybe even Google the Kachan Cleantech report to Congress on 1/23.

Gonna put some $ in the pot to help the Germans pay their mongo carbon tax, if they are dumb enough to de-nuke?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 2, 2012
Matt, you need to read more about real nuke figures in all Western countries -- the utilization factor for standard LWRs beats everything save hydro. And, if you want to see why Germany & Japan will soon have serious financial trouble if they do shut nukes, just read away...

www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/australian-and-czech-consortium-announce-thorium-j

www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Eye_watering_cost_of_renewable_revolution_2301121.html?utm_so

www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP_Japanese_trade_figures_reveal_cost_of_nuclear_shutdown_2501121.html

Then see why China & ROW will be eating our lunch, if we don't wise up...
www.greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Full-Speed-Ahead-For-Chinas-Nuclear-Program.html

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/only-nuclear-energy-will-help-india-produce-more-electricity/946894.html

Maybe even Google the Kachan Cleantech report to Congress on 1/23.

Gonna put some $ in the pot to help the Germans pay their mongo carbon tax, if they are dumb enough to de-nuke?
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
February 2, 2012
In Wind Technology the accent now is BIG IS BEAUTIFUL AND BOUNTIFUL TOO!
Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore (AP), India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
February 2, 2012
In Wind Technology the accent now is BIG IS BEAUTIFUL AND BOUNTIFUL TOO!
Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore (AP), India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 1, 2012
Nuclear power plants have shocking capacity factors.

In France the nuclear sector is propped up by dumping 30% of its excess night time oversupply on Italy, Austria, Switzerland and Germany stressing their grids. (They're not happy about it)

In Japan only 3/54 reactors are switched on - in other words Japanese Nuclear has a capacity factor of less than 10% in the world's 2nd most technologically advanced economy.

Nuclear is a disaster to economies that have burnt themselves trying it.

Finland - Areva (world's largest builder) fails to build 3rd generation plant 2004-2008 buid overrun - Siemens bails out of industry and loses $4 billion over it.
France - Areva 3rd gen plant behind schedule, company diversifies into wind and solar thermal.
China - only builds dangerous outdated 2nd generation models banned in the west - currently a moratorium on building exists.
Ukraine - bad news and costly.
Japan - an economic disaster as a huge area of industrial base around Fukushima is closed down due to radioactivity. Families ruined, jobs vaporised.

Companies are offshoring due to energy constraints because the community will not accept this dangerous energy source coming back into production.

mind you - unlike nuclear everything else is working, kicking in and keeping the Japanese economy moving despite the hopeless state of nuclear.

In Spain they have 5 nuclear plants that commenced and never got commissioned -- economic modelling $20 billion of nuclear plants in today's dollars and no electricity sent to the grid.

It is likely that the Spanish nuclear disaster (plants that never sent any electricity out) along with a construction boom/bust have caused the Spanish economy to tank.

I feel sorry for the 17% of unemployed people who would be employed if they were in an economy that is closing down nuclear and building renewables (Germany)

**Germany has a 6% unemployment rate - the lowest in 21 years and they just shut half their nuclear plants.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 1, 2012
Alex,

You are wrong, the energy requirement is 4MWh for each ton to steel. HBI - to DRI to rolling mill.

Please provide an alternative reference if you can prove me wrong (you can't cause these are the numbers)

A solar thermal plant does NOT require a gas connection. Torresol Gemasolar has 75% annual hours of production, which is much higher than US coal and nuclear plants average.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 1, 2012
Matt, you miss the problem -- chemistry. Steel is made by chemically separating iron atoms from oxygen or sulfur atoms (reduction of oxides & sulfides).

In DRI, that requires 2-8 hydrogen atoms per iron atom, depending on the ore oxides (FeO, Fe2O3, Fe3O4), or 1/2 that in carbon-monoxide atoms per iron atom.

Reality then is that combustion & emission of both water vapor & CO2 are occurring, which are, of course, both greenhouse gasses. And DRI (sponge) iron isn't steel, nor is it pig iron, as from blast furnaces. It's made only in small batches. So, it requires considerable processing, done quickly, because it rusts quickly & is flammable (its voids contain air).

So while the overall production efficiency of DRI is somewhat superior to blast furnace iron, the extra processing incurs considerable energy cost. The need for methane, rather than coal (unless using CO) also means location near gas fields or major gas lines. This then incurs inevitable methane leakage, and CH4 s 25-100 times as bad a GHG as is CO2.

Overall, DRI doesn't solve the wasteful resource burden in fossil-fuels, etc. that windmills incur.

Your solar thermal is interesting, because it's less efficient than a typical combustion plant in producing electricity & the few large ones require gas lines to them as well, to allow operation when needed, when the boiler/salt cools.

So wind & solar thermal are each wasteful systems, especially of land & transmission cost & loss.

For comparison, a standard nuclear plant lasts ~forever, with replacement components every ~60 years that amount to a fraction of a wind farm's metals, while generating 100MW/acre, 24/7. No wind farm can match that, even if its generators were rated at 1GWe total & ran full tilt for 60 years -- best wind is 1/2MW/acre.

It's fine to be for 'renewables', but it's required of us all to understand their faults as well as fancies. Local solar PV needs no land or vast resources & beats wind.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
February 1, 2012
Dr Alex C you are incorrect. DRI using HBI would use between 3MWh and 4MWh per ton if done completely with electricity.

(personally I would use a Solar Thermal plant with storage to do the job and run it in a combined cycle mode with electricity production and heat - such as Solar Reserves Tonopah plant)

So a 7.5MW wind turbine at 136Metre hub height using 500ton of Steel would require 500ton x 4MWh of electricity to produce that steel in a HBI + DRI or straight DRI using hematite. Electric only all the way and a small amount of biogas for reducing reaction.

so 2Gigawatt hours of electricity production pays of its steel use.

Now lets put the turbine down in a location in Australia and see how it performs.
7.5MW x 35% capacity factor x 8760 hours = 23GWh per year

So the embodid steel energy is paid off in less than 5 weeks of operation.

The turbine then lasts 30 years
23 x 30 = 690GWh

And then the steel is recycled in an electric arc furnace without having to do the huge reducing effort you need with iron ore. 500ton x 440kWh = 220MWh - pays this off in under a week.

If you disagree with these, please give me better DRI or DRI+HBI numbers
Transport etc is nothing compared to the embodied energy in teh steel and concrete clinkering - I've laid the numbers out here fore you.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
February 1, 2012
Matt, when companies make steel from iron ore, they can't depend on variable sources that are necessarily distant, thus also inefficient. And, the DRI process still depends on natural gas, coal, etc...

"DRI is successfully manufactured in various parts of the world through either natural gas or coal-based technology."

The amount of fossil-fuel emissions is not of concern, the expense of the furnace equipment is, particularly for small steel operations. DRI simply provides an alternative way to separate iron atoms from oxygen in iron-oxide ores:

"by a reducing gas produced from natural gas or coal. The reducing gas is a mixture majority of hydrogen and carbon monoxide"

So DRI may well have advantages, but production of, say, the 400-ton steel tower for a Siemens 5MW wind generator consumes vast fossil fuel and and creates vast GHG emissions, particularly in the case of natural gas, which is many times worse than CO2 for greenhouse warming and so methane leakage in the extraction, storage, transport & use is exceedingly serious.

DRI may make a windmill a bit less burdened by steel-production emissions, but not much, given all the prior processing & transport of ore & hydrocarbons needed, all requiring fossil-fuelled vehicles.

Then there are the roads, long transmission lines & many steel towers, which I didn't include in wind farms' fossil dependencies. The problem is worse than I stated.

The point of the rare-earth materials dependency on China is just that -- dependency on foreign exchange of what we'd hope was local production of products. Even the steel towers & generator parts are often not made in USA, further adding to the fossil-fuel dependency of wind power.

There's even more, but the basic reality is wind now serves only subsidized investors & foreign manufacturers. Local solar (DG) outdoes it in efficiency, locality of production, stability, longevity &land use. And, solar cell efficiencies have 2 more doublings wind lacks.
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
January 31, 2012
Dr AlexC

You are wrong, do a search for Direct Reduced Iron. A very small amount of Coke (from Biomass or Coal) is used for the reduction reaction. The heat can be provided from renewable energy.

As for clinkering limestone, 100% of the energy (the heat for the process) can come from renewable energy.)

A wind turbine can produce many more times the steal in DRI electric arc furnaces than is used in its construction. 100s of times the steal.

How about you come back with some referenced numbers on how much Steel a wind turbine's energy can make in a DRI furnace??

Rather than ignoring DRI and only talking about outdated conventional blast furnaces.

The magnets in your computer that you posted this from and the internet of computers and comms links that got your message around the globe are from rare earths.

What is your point?

BTW some gearboxes are rare earth based others are not.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
January 31, 2012
Uh, no, Wick. Steel needs 5x as many tons of coal to make 1x tons of steel. You don't know why that is?

The 1000cu-m concrete foundation needs 1000 tons of concrete, which is only made by kilning limestone, quarrying that plus aggregate (rock) totalling 1000 tons.

Kilning requires fossil fuel. Coal is a fossil fuel burned (partly) to make coke for making steel, and so on. You don't know that?

And, the magnetic materials in a wind generator come from mined rare earths, like Neodymium, which are only available now from China (until we change legislation). So all the transport of all the stuff for a windmill also burns fossil fuel.

Windmills come from fossil fuel & mining. That's one reason they're so wasteful and will be laughed at or scorned by our descendents having to clean up after them.
http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/

700tons of fossil-fuel-processed material for each MW of peak power, not counting the ~30% duty cycle, perennial transmission loss, land usurpation, noise, maintenance, insurance, yadda, yadda.

They're great for subsidized investors, just like Goldman Sachs bonusses used to be.
;]
My favorite: http://tinyurl.com/bl9vlc7
And it was off!
Ronald Thomas
Ronald Thomas
January 31, 2012
With steel you can build a wind turbine, but you can build steel with wind turbines!
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
January 28, 2012
The report actually says: 'The high penetration of wind power in Denmark requires careful balancing of the country's energy system. The system is balanced through:

Trading power on a liberalised electricity market
Importing and exporting power from neighbouring countries
Flexible and decentralised power production.

...Denmark's goal of 50 per cent wind power by 2020 means that the regulation of the energy system will become increasingly important.'

And, the Danes already dislike their on-shore windmills...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/7996606/An-ill-wind-blows-for-Denmarks-green-energy-revolution.html

Then again, the example is flawed because Denmark is tiny & must depend on others, like Germany, to balance wind's natural variability. EV systems like BetterWay will help, but they would do so still with more efficient local solar. If the Germans indeed proceed with the crazy idea of shutting nukes, Denmark will then become partner to vastly increased emissions...
www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1552105
www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/us-siemens-energy-idUSTRE80G10920120117
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/siemens-says-germany-nuclear-phase-out-to-cost-trillions/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=011912

So, the story of wind continues to be puffed up, both on the fossil & resource side in construction, and on the operation & maintenance side forever more. The fossil folks love wind, and solar 'farms', because they know only efficiency & nuclear can compete...
www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle800.do?categoryId=9037134&contentId=7068677

Problem for both fossil & wind power is the real economies know neither is long term...
www.greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy
http://tinyurl.com/7qcd6ue
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/a-less-mighty-wind
Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
January 28, 2012
Onshore wind turbines that are large are fine. Enercon already sell a 7.5MW twin blade onshore turbine. It is installed in Belgium, France, Germany and Sweden.

Also counter to the rubbish above about wind power in Denmark. Denmark is moving to 50% Wind Power by 2020. A complete phaseout of coal and oil burning by 2030 including renewable heat by then. And 100% renewable energy economy by 2050.

See the following article.
http://ecogeneration.com.au/news/world-leading_denmark/065540/

On shore wind makes sense and usually compliments solar as wind comes on early morning and in the early evening in most locations.
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
January 26, 2012
Bert, while your math is within an order of magnitude of being correct regarding the non-linear relationship between size and economic efficiency (yes, there is a point of negative return) I would further argue that a huge turbine can only be located in one wind location whereas ten smaller units can draw from as many. When it comes to providing base load power turbines in general average perhaps 20% efficiency and the best of them on land do not even reach 50%, meaning a 10mw turbine at best can deliver half its capacity on an annual basis, which further demolishes Mr. Anonymous's mathematics. That is why the only place it approaches making any sense to erect these behemoths is offshore where they may be able to achieve 75% efficiency. Otherwise, they should be used off-grid at remote ski resorts where they already have infrastructure at the top of the mountain and the folks are perfectly happy reading by candlelight when the wind isn't blowing.
Gerard Vaughan
Gerard Vaughan
January 26, 2012
I would like to ask Mr. Anonimous, upon what it is, that he bases his assertion that one 10MW turbine will be more cost effective than 4 2.5MW turbine. In point of simple fact the ten MW one will weigh Eight times as much as one of the 4 MW ones, making it TWICE the cost per square metre or Watt. in comparison.
Alternators, on the other hand, exhibit the opposite 'Economy of scale', i.e. one to replace 4 of 1/4 the thro'put will be - in my experience around 500 watts - only about twice the price of any one of the 4. This by 'my math ?' is half the cost per watt.
The above two simple and un-assailable facts, dictate that there is a 'Size of lowest cost' for Any Turbine-Alternator device. This is the size where the T costs about the same as the A. This happens at the very convenient size of around 1/2 to 1 metre dia.
A good design at around this size can return several whole percent of its cost annually. Some 40 times that of the current machines in which some unfortunate's money has been invested. Current 'designs' - far from returning the ENERGY ( not 'power' ) required to construct them, in 5 weeks did I hear !! take several hundred years. According to figures from a public meeting in Llandeilo, july '05, 153M GBP 'Farm' returned 0.2M GBP of energy per annum.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
January 21, 2012
;] Tom. This is why I get so much trouble from my Sierra Club cohorts -- I agree with 2/3 of what they want: efficiency & local solar. Then, I hit them with what SC used to support and what Greenpeace has finally come around on...
http://knowledge.allianz.com/energy/fossil_fuels/index.cfm?526%2Fnuclear-power-debate-climate-solution-pro&mid=56#comments

and: www.thoriumremix.com/2011
or: www.greenprophet.com/2012/01/saudis-china-nuclear-energy

Then, the result is like being interviewed on Fox 'News' -- what a clamor!
;]
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
January 20, 2012
Dr. Alex, don't get me wrong, I am not a big wind proponent even off shore, where I think its prospects for net gain are speculative at best and future obsolescence certain, it's just when you look at a wind resource map such as this one:
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/US-50m-wind-power-map.jpg
... one sees that the ONLY places identified as "Outstanding" or "Superb" are off shore and within a hundred miles of all the major population centers, which is why I always considered massive wind farms from Texas to Montana and transmission "superhighways" across the country to be completely illogical unless you are a coastal elitist or Kennedy who does not want your own horizon disturbed.
In my opinion the simplicity and the potential for widespread, unintrusive incremental deployment of solar, both for heating and PV is indeed attractive as long as we allow the market to determine its viability. I am against all subsidies, however unlike other Greenies I do not consider government sale of leases for fossil stakes to be a "subsidy" as long as they are sold at auction. In all cases endless debates and tortured constructs over what is or is not a "subsidy", direct or otherwise, only arise as a result of comparatively few masterminds orchestrating government interference with the marketplace in order to pick winners and losers to effect the implementation of their master plan for all of us.
Once you allow the masterminds to start telling you that you must use comparatively complex electronic mercury vapor light bulbs in your living room instead of a simple tungsten filament in a vacuum, or taxing others in order to subsidize your purchase of a coal-fired electric car you quickly find yourself well over your head in a foolish attempt to circumvent the immutable laws of economics, as anybody who used to play that early computer game "Sim City" can attest, and you ALWAYS end up succumbing to the second immutable law you correctly point out... that of unintended consequences.
ANONYMOUS
January 20, 2012
Like many things, wind turbine performance benefits from economy of scale. All other things being equal, one 10MW turbine will be more cost effective than four 2.5MW turbines.

From a capital cost standpoint, onshore turbine installations are far less costly than offshore turbine installations. And even though offshore wind conditions are more favorable, it does not outweigh the higher installation costs.

The ideal solution is a very large onshore design. Due to transportation issues, as the article notes, current onshore turbine designs are limited to around 3MW. But this limitation will eventually be overcome, and we will see 8MW or 10MW onshore turbines in the future.

The conventional wisdom in the wind energy business was that large PM direct-drive designs would replace the conventional gearbox and AC generator configuration, due to the reliability issues with gearboxes. But recently, gearboxes have gotten much more reliable, and PM materials have gotten much more expensive. So turbine manufacturers are backing away from their PM direct-drive designs.

In the end, economics will determine what turbine design is best.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
January 20, 2012
Most human mistakes derive from intentional or unintentional accounting fibs -- Madoff & Solyndra come to mind, at least.

Same for windmills -- "...first 6 months of operation, a wind turbine generates more power than was needed for its manufacture."

Maybe so, but that's the easy part. The 700 tons of fossil-fuel-processed materials per MW of 30% duty-cycle windmill power create an emissions burden that cannot be made up that quickly, even if the wind turned the windmill at peak output all day * competed with a coal plant. And, as fossil generation subsides, the event of a new windmill makes its concomitant emissions burden even a sillier waste.

Local solar has no such burden and doesn't even depend on foreign-supplied materials -- Korean steel towers, Chinese rare-earth magnets, foreign oil... At least the 2000 tons of coal needed per 5MW windmill tower could come from us, but not easily, if it has to be shipped to Korea or China first. So the big lie in wind is in simple self-serving accounting.

That's why is will be fading away, as Vestas & the Chinese already know...
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/a-less-mighty-wind
www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21tttransmission.html?_r=1&hpw

Even the gentle Danes aren't happy...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/7996606/An-ill-wind-blows-for-Denmarks-green-energy-revolution.html

But, we'll have our memories of its glory days...
http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/
Tom Leiper
Tom Leiper
January 20, 2012
I agree with Dr. Alex and have maintained a similar position for years, that essentially the only location wind approaches decent power density and transmission efficiency is off-shore, where not only the available wind resource dwarfs that of the so called mid continent "wind corridor" but is closer to 90% of the demand market by an order of magnitude and all the infrastructure sans the underwater cabling is already in place... just assemble them in shipyards, stack them on barges, tow them to sea and plant them like so many tulips. If prevailing conditions or attitudes change, anchor them someplace else. Need an overhaul? Drop another in place and take it back to the shop. New technology like fusion or dilithium crystals eclipses wind at any price? Turn them into reefs for the fishies.
That is a far different and more plausible than trying to attempt the same enterprise on land... transporting a thousand tons of steel and concrete to remote mountaintop locations far from the source of demand, miles of new transmission lines and rights of way, and come the end of the day, because the day of obsolescence will come, a legacy of gigantic building blocks topped by hundreds of tons of towering, rusting structures lined up across our vistas like so many Martian fighting machines.
I once calculated that in order to produce the same peak power as the Hoover dam on a base load basis you would need to line up two megawatt turbines atop the western ridge along Interstate 81 from Scranton Pennsylvania well down to the Tennessee border and beyond, spinning away like the pinwheels at some immense used car lot. Imagine what they would look like in fifty years? Imagine the "carbon" cost of manufacture, transport, installation, maintenance, decommissioning and removal... and that's assuming that the governing jurisdictions have the good sense to require bonding for that day when technology moves on. Little pinwheel on your roof or off grid? Have fun. Big wind on land? Nonsense.
ANONYMOUS
January 20, 2012
Clearly DrAlexC is an advocate of solar as am I. However, I believe that all renewables need to be embraced and supported as they are the solution to mitigate the effects of climate change and to provide our future generations with a clean environment.

When discussing the amount of energy required to manufacture a wind turbine, we need to remember that in its first 6 months of operation, a wind turbine generates more power than was needed for its manufacture. For the next 25 years that turbine will continue to produce clean energy. I think that is a pretty good deal.

The reason for the rapid growth of wind power is mainly due to economics. Wind power is cheaper than solar with or without subsidies. That may change in time, but for now I am pleased to see growth of wind, solar, tidal, geothermal and run of river hydro.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
January 20, 2012
"They stand as looming testaments to innovation", and uncritical evaluation.

Whether for subsidy or science, the wind 'industry', now, as in the '70s, works hard to hide their inefficiency, their low power density, their dependence on fossil fuelling for fabrication, construction, and their low reliability coupled with high maintenance costs.

Unlike solar, windmills rarely can be local to loads. That's a 10% tax on their generation, forever. Unlike any solar, wind output is highly variable, with output cliffs at both low & high wind speeds. Unlike solar, wind requires more expensive control interfaces to meet grid standards & needs.

So, as long as sufficient subsidies exist, wind promoters will continue to hide their resource & fossil-fuel dependencies, as well as their dependecies on lobbyists & rate/tax-payers.

The world needs honest, accurate engineering solutions to emissions reductions that should have occurred decades ago. Wind promoters can't provide that, because they hide realities, even the inefficiency of horizontal vs vertical machines. They hide the fact that no windmills are needed anywhere on earth, because we've already built enough human structures to cap with solar PV & hot-water production to meet all peak daytime needs. That wise, local solution at once gains back wind's 10% transmission loss, while also building a more robust grid, with clear potential for doubling in efficiency beyond the 20% now readily available at $1/Watt. Wind has no future doubling in power density possible.

As Vestas is now experiencing, wind will decline as more honest assessments of its true properties & environmental impacts appear. It will have to answer why it demands 700 tons of fossil-fuel-processed material per MW peak; why each ton of tower steel needs 5 tons of coal & 100 tons of water. Why each 1000 cubic-meter foundation consumes fossil fuel for kilning limestone, yielding <180W/sq meter, sometimes.
Anatoly Arov
Anatoly Arov
January 19, 2012
It was interesting observation for wind hardware, mostly lift turbines, development. Wind is moving off-shore and this creates opportunity for vertical axis turbines. I invented new type of vertical axis turbine utilizing 80% of wind swept area, with counterrotating rotors and allowing to capture twice more wind energy despite drag effect, not requiring special generators by achieving higher rpm, perfect for floating platforms, tested even for car roof use. Inexpensive, scaleable, stackable, etc. This will be 21-st Century technology and not lift technology dinosaurs. Lets competition begin but before turbine manufacturers should start to rate their turbines by electrical and not mechanical power output.

Add Your Comments

To add your comments you must sign-in or create a free account.

  • Create a Free Account!
  • Sign-In
Steve Leone

Steve Leone

Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California.
  • About
  • Articles
  • Blog
  • Contact
  • FOLLOW
  • CONTACT
Renewable Energy World (North America Edition) Magazine

This magazine is no longer being published as of May 1, 2012. To subscribe to similar renewable energy content click here. Or, subscribe to our worldwide Renewable Energy World magazine digital edition here. From May 2012, Renewable Energy...

  • Archives
  • About
Stay Connected
         
To register for our free e-Newsletters, create your free account here:

Editors' Picks

  • EU Debate Over Climate Change Policy Could Dampen Renewable Energy Growth
  • Wind Power — Even without the Wind

Most Commented

  • 17
    The Economic Case for Divesting from Fossil Fuels
  • 12
    Breakdown: Penetration of Renewable Energy in Selected Markets
  • 5
    No Easy Fix for Broken Wind Turbine at US High School
  • 5
    Ireland Keen to Hit 2030 Renewable Targets, Says EU Ambassador

Total Access Partners

Growing Your Business? Learn More about Total Access
  • Canadian Clean Energy Conferences
  • The Stella Group, Ltd.
  • Renewable Energy World Europe
  • Rotork plc
  • Renewable Energy World Magazine
  • Black & Veatch Corporation
  • Fairtrade-Messe
  • Stoel Rives LLP
News
  • Renewable Energy
  • Solar Energy
  • Wind Energy
  • Bioenergy
  • Geothermal Energy
  • Hyrdo Power
  • Blogs
  • Video
  • Finance
Resources
  • Companies
  • Products
  • Careers
  • Events
  • Webcasts
  • White Papers
  • Magazines
  • Press Releases
  • e-Newsletters
Company
  • About Us
  • Our Team
  • Contact Us
  • Advertising & Services
  • Privacy Policy
  • Terms & Conditions
  • Site Map
Network Partners - Magazines
  • Hydro Review Magazine
  • Hydro Review Worldwide Magazine
  • Renewable Energy World Magazine
Network Partners - Events
  • Power-Gen International
  • Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo North America
  • Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Europe
  • Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Asia
  • Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Africa
  • Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo India
  • HydroVision International
  • HydroVision Brazil
  • HydroVision India
  • HydroVision Russia
© Copyright 1999-2013 RenewableEnergyWorld.com - All rights reserved.
RenewableEnergyWorld.com - World's #1 Renewable Energy Network for news & Information