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Sustainability: The Necessary Condition for Carbon Neutrality

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17 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 17
December 2, 2011
General queston: What about diverting the CO2 into an alge farm that could then be used to make biofuels. It is true that it would only delay the release of the CO2 but it would make the cycle longer and provide less dependence on oil.
Just a thought.
Comment
2 of 17
December 2, 2011
Thank you for the above debate! A 100% sustainable future does require that the carbon emitted from the combustion of ALL hydrocarbons equal the carbon sequestered by global plant growth worldwide. But, we are also running into the concrete wall of replacing all of the energy that we currently get from non-renewable hydrocarbons, and of providing energy, food and transportation all from 100% sustainable and renewable sources. The only website that I have seen that provides any sketches for such a mandatory future is that at www.greenmillennium.eu . What chances have our children's children's children's...children if we cannot create such an infrastructure within the next generation?!
Comment
3 of 17
December 3, 2011
Hi:

"As long as we need heat we will need combustion. Yes electricity can be made from hydro, solar, wind, and even nuclear with no carbon output. But electricity does not heat homes and does not make heat for industrial processes."

Are you kidding me!! Am I missing something here!! I as of next year will heat all with solar thermal, geothermal and produce elect. from PV and down the road wind. I heat my hot water and my house produce more elect than I will use and no combustion required!!
As is common place among futurists, man is defined as primitive as long as he wars and burns for energy.
I think the above quote from your story needs some context....

.....Bill
Comment
4 of 17
December 6, 2011
Good article on Sustainability and Carbon Neutrality.

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Comment
5 of 17
December 6, 2011
Agreed William Fitch!
The notion that combustion in a mandatory requirement to heat homes is myopic beyond belief. I absolutely believe that bio-energy has a big place in our future, but fostering a
a paradigm which insists that we can not survive WITHOUT combustion is incorrect at best and most likely disingenuous and self-serving on the part of the author.

Further, using forests as a fuel source is a very dangerous concept. We MUST have serious concerns over proper forest management. I would have to hope that we have a more resposible stewardship and oversight than we currently have in place to potect the oceans and atmmosphere from the ravages of fossil fuels.
As long as there is profit to be made, it seems like a longshot....
Can anyone else see entire forests planted with the most fuel rich, optimal burning tree farms replacing the Brazillian rainforest?
There is a great deal of research being done on different types of algae which can produce a suitable energy yeild - without destroying bio-diverse forests. The biggest difference is that in this model, the fuel producers must invest first to grow the crop.
Seems like a model more likely to keep unscrupulous groups from taking advantage of the "grey areas" which inevitably surround new technologies.
Comment
6 of 17
December 6, 2011
Hi:

Yes, I agree on algae. Again, I am an anti burn-person but with that said for the purposes of diesel engines for trucks and heavy equipment, placing giant algae farms next to coal plants and other heavy CO2 sources seems like a great way to temporally sequester the CO2 for the purposes of accelerated growth of the algae. The savings in CO2 would ultimately be had through less virgin fossil fuel consumption. It would be nice to get to a point where the demand for CO2 for algae growth exceeded dirty CO2 production. Bio fuels could then be used for the energy sources to create solar, wind and geothermal systems to move away from burning all together...
ETC... All the tech needed is here today... the only small matter standing in the way is human greed, though I really do think that population control through a 'die off' of the poorest is an agenda that is being pursued by a certain few.... 7 Billion can not fly on this world...

.....Bill
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Comment
7 of 17
Anonymous
December 8, 2011
William Fitch writes in comment #6: "All the tech needed is here today... the only small matter standing in the way is human greed,..."
This isn't true. William always brushes aside economic realities with cries of "greed" (although as the owner of a solar business he seems to have a financial motivation for urging profligate spending). Perhaps William can afford to spend ~$0.20/kWh for electricity but those in developing nations cannot. It isn't greed that is holding these people back from embracing renewable sources of energy--they can only use what they can afford. Furthermore, the notion that extant renewable technologies, most of which are intermittent, could supply all of our needs is naive. New technologies are needed if we are to replace fossil fuels.
Steven
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Comment
8 of 17
Anonymous
December 8, 2011
It seems to me the author's latest argument falls short of a refutation of the Manomet study. The burning of biomass clearly accelerates the rate at which CO2 temporarily sequestered in the form of wood, etc. is returned to the atmosphere because it is obviously much faster than the normal decay processes. Because burning fossil fuels produces more energy for a given amount of CO2 released, a switch to burning biomass will lead to a transient uptick in CO2 emissions just as the Manomet study suggests. This is little chance the authors of the study will be convinced by Strauss's refined argument; in fact, Gunn would seem to have already explicitly rejected this line of reasoning in his 10/20/11 REW article:

"Our study has been controversial because it challenged the conventional wisdom that burning wood is instantaneously carbon neutral. Two arguments are generally made for carbon neutrality. First, there is the assumption that carbon is immediately sequestered somewhere else on the forested landscape...."

Strauss's argument given above merely shows that in a steady-state-limit sustainable use of biomass is carbon neutral--it does not refute the fact that a switch from fossil fuels to biomass will lead to an initial transient increase in CO2 levels. Nevertheless, a switch from fossil fuels to sustainable use of biomass is obviously the correct policy. The transient increase in atmospheric CO2 from initiating the policy would have a negligible impact on the environment, but in the longer term it will lead to meaningful reductions in CO2 compared to the use of fossil fuels. It would be incredibly short-sighted if the state of Massachusetts were to let an artificial near term CO2 level target interfere with a sound environmental policy that will yield substantial long term benefits.
Steven
Comment
9 of 17
December 8, 2011
Hi:

LOL... actually my installed cost of my shortly to be installed PV system with solar sourced backup will cost me $.05 per KWH as a 25 year LCOE. ... and it is because it will only be $.05 per KWH that I can afford it... as for business interest... oh yes I am rolling in 7 figure income as a solar start up for thermal product, who to this day still has not had a successful resolution regarding SRCC product certification, now going on 4 years!!
Your tired mantras Stephen are well misdirected when thrown my way...

.....Bill
PS: and oh BTW, tech is tech and money is money.. any dictionary can explain the difference for you...
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Comment
10 of 17
Anonymous
December 8, 2011
William, in comment #10, suggests that PV has a levelized cost of energy (LCOE) of $0.05/kWh--for a residential install no less. This suggests that William does not know how to calculate a LCOE properly or that he is simply making stuff up; certainly no one else is claiming that residential PV has a LCOE of only $0.05/kWh, and in parts of Europe FITs to encourage residential PV are as much as $0.60/kWh. Perhaps he will entertain us with a detailed analysis of how he calculates a LCOE. The notion, expressed by William (see comment #6), that a lack of virtue is all that is holding us back from a 100% renewable infrastructure is an absurdity. BOTH financial and technical limitations currently prevent us from achieving that goal and these limitations are far more important than any lack of virtue. Fortunately, technological limitations are susceptible to change (by increased R&D)--at least if one recognizes what the true limitations are.
Steven
Comment
11 of 17
December 8, 2011
The Biomass concept discussed still boils down simply to burning wood and growing forests.
If we grow forests faster than we burn wood, we will be carbon positive. Brilliant in concept and certainly not magical or new. This is a great technology which needs to be developed and managemd very carefully.
Bio-mass makes perfect sense if we have a supply of dedicated waste material or manufacturing by-product for supply fuel but deforestation is a slippery slope.
Even if we ignore the loss of habitat and biodiversity. My real question is how do we really make sure that we are planting more than we are taking?
Planting costs money and reduces short term profit. What government or corporation is going to ensure that balance is maintained? In the last 500 years of humankind, I don't think we have seen that required level of stewardship.
By design, both goverments and businesses are rewarded for capitalizing on short-term success.

It bears pointing out that we are already currently destroying forests at a rate of 80,000 acres/day. (see link below)

http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0801.htm
Comment
12 of 17
December 10, 2011
Hi:

25 year LCOE is simply the total cost of install and maint over 25 years divided by the number of KWH produced over the period.
For me, 14K$ (30% fed tax credit only) install divided by a ultra conservative 225,000 KHW = .0622. That is assuming after 25 years the system output goes to zero. The panels themselves are warrantied to deliver 80% output at 25 years, 90% after 10 years. I used 80% for the above calc as the number over the whole 25 years. If you are interested in my entire number string, 255 x 38 / 1000 x .8 x .8 x 8 x .5 x 365 x 25 = 226,358 KWH rounded down to 225,000 KWH. A true reality of LCOE if the panels go 30 or 35 years, even if you throw in another inverter and keep in mind this includes the cost of an initial set of batteries and a second 6KW backup inverter which most systems don't have, I could end up being anywhere from .04 to .07 per KWH for the period of at least 25 to as long as 50 years. Since I am currently paying .10 per KWH, this is a no brain'er from an investment perspective let alone the off grid capability and associated energy independence included in that.
So as I said in #10: "Your tired mantras Stephen are well misdirected when thrown my way..."

.....Bill
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Comment
13 of 17
Anonymous
December 10, 2011
Well Bill, in addition to not even being clear about the numbers you have used (the size of the array is unclear, the estimated insolation at the installed location is unclear, the O&M cost is unclear, etc.) you have completely neglected financing costs (or equivalently, the opportunity cost from not investing the $14K in some other venture). This is a serious error, so my prediction that you don't know how to calculate a LCOE is vindicated. Furthermore, one should not include Federal subsidies in a LCOE if one is arguing that solar is cheaper than alternatives--somebody is paying that 30% subsidy, even if it isn't you. Maybe you would like to try again more carefully....
Steven
Comment
14 of 17
December 11, 2011
Hi:

I would be happy to take away the 30% fed credit upon adding in all the total cost benefits over time enjoyed by the comparative conventional KWH cost. Pro conventional fuel people always demand a level playing field except the true meaning of that means leveling the RE side only, not the cumulative rewards conventionals have received over more than 100 years that allows them to have low numbers in the first place. So to be fair, I think is is more than equitable to compare as financing in place. As for the money to be made investment wise on the 14K$, the rise of electric rates over the next 25 or 35 years will far exceed any guaranteed rate I could receive on a small amount of money like that. So to use in rough figuring which this is, the flat rate of electric cost of $.10 per KWH and countering by ignoring investment return, is also fair. As another conservative aspect to my calcs, I did not include the value of the 226 MWH of SREC'S over that period. Those at only $20 a MWH ($.02 KWH equiv) would yield another $4520.00.
As a very relevant note, conventional fuel promoters bash RE (solar in this case) from a cost side with current incentives in place. Or to say it in reverse, the negative remarks chastising the move to RE is not limited to the discussion in an incentiveless reality. If that history of discussion was the reality, I might be more inclined to level less distain in the conventional promoters direction.
Technical details for the entire house and all its energy components will be delivered in a long and detailed article next year.

.....Bill
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Comment
15 of 17
Anonymous
December 11, 2011
Regarding some of William's remarks in comment #16:

A LCOE has a precise meaning and includes a financing component. In comment #16 William seems to argue that he should be allowed to secretly redefine what the term means because his isn't fond of some entirely different type of electricity generation scheme. Hopefully Bill will reconsider this strange notion, because the rest of the world also adheres to precise definitions for two other terms: when one twists the meaning of words to suit one's own purposes it is called lying and when one does this for business purposes it is called fraud.

Steven
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Comment
16 of 17
Anonymous
December 12, 2011
Clee writes in comment #18:
"$20,000 for 9690 watts is $2/W. Nice. I assume you do all the labor yourself."
If you do the labor yourself and value it at zero worth, you are not calculating a valid LCOE.

Clee also writes:
If I paid for my PV system without a loan, I wouldn't really count the opportunity cost of the money. However, a 20-year US treasury bond currently yields 2.8% interest, which is roughly the inflation rate, so if you want the LCOE in constant 2011 dollars, I think it washes out, even taking into account opportunity costs.

Well, if one is calculating an LCOE a financing estimate is an integral part of the calculation. You also would not use the interest rate of a treasury note, which is a very low risk investment, as a reasonable rate--5% would be a low-end estimate of a reasonable figure.

Solarbuzz gives an estimate of $0.292/kWh for residential PV in a sunny climate:
http://www.solarbuzz.com/facts-and-figures/retail-price-environment/solar-electricity-prices

The solarbuzz estimates are already pretty aggressive and are very different from William's claim of $0.05/kWh.

Steven
Comment
17 of 17
December 12, 2011
Hi Clee:

Close. The .5 is a conservative sunshine yearly percentage. The other 8 is actually 8 as in hours of sun. The system will be E/W tracking with manual altitude adjust, probably 3 times a year. SUn will range from a low of 7 hours to 13 hours exposure, Dec 21 vs Jun 21.. Sun values will be about 95% of the direct normal total numbers. Labor is all mine, not a big deal for me. This kind of stuff (RE and particularly solar) is like breathing or chewing gum. My biggest 'fear' is lightning. I have a location that is rough for that. Been hit many times though to look at the spot you would never think that. SO in the system design I have gone very suppression heavy and ground heavy and will cross my fingers. Snow removal will be next to nothing if it comes after sunset. The panels auto park to the East and there vertical angle at that point will be 75 or 80 degs. I clean my solar off anyway. It is the one snow removal job that actually pays me money, unlike the driveway or walks....LOL..
As for counting labor cost, I tend to go IRS rules.
I find the counting of you own time for yourself as a dollar value somewhat bogus. I spend 1 hour on the walks and driveway which pays me nothing. My time doing that is viewed as of no dollar value. Now, lets say I spend 1 hour cleaning snow off solar panels, again, for myself. It makes me money. But, the task is identical to the walk and driveway. Business 'logic' suggests that because the action pays me money when doing the solar, this changes the reality of the snow clearing process itself, justifying it as an O&M cost...
Sorry, don't buy it...

.....Bill
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William Strauss

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