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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

SolarWorld on Trade Complaint: 'This Was Our Time To Step Up'

Some solar executives say that anti-dumping tariffs could be a dangerous move.

Steve Leone, Associate Editor, RenewableEnergyWorld.com
October 20, 2011  |  92 Comments

Several solar executives say a trade complaint filed by seven American solar manufacturers threatens to drain all momentum from a surging industry, while SolarWorld, the company heading the petition against China, contends that low-cost Chinese panels are creating an unsustainable cost structure built on artificial prices.

The debate will certainly ensue as both the Department of Commerce and the United States International Trade Commission investigate a complaint that Chinese crystalline silicon cell and panel makers are illegally dumping their products at below-market prices, and they’re doing so because they are backed by lucrative government subsidies. If a final determination is made in favor of the American companies, it could mean a doubling in the price of panels coming into the U.S. market.

On Thursday, the conversation moved away from the details of the investigation process and toward an unsettled understanding on what this may mean for the American and global solar industries.

During a roundtable discussion focused on the trade dispute and its potential impacts, three solar executives – Barry Cinnamon of Westinghouse Solar, Arno Harris of Recurrent Energy and Dan Shugar of Solaria – appeared skeptical that the move by SolarWorld and six unnamed companies would do anything but disrupt and perhaps derail the solar boom expected to happen in the United States over the next few years.

SolarWorld

SolarWorld President Kevin Kilkelly said Thursday that the decision to head up the lawsuit culminated from 10 months of internal monitoring. Kilkelly said his company began to suspect artificially low prices last spring, and by the beginning of August, he said the signs were clear. The real trigger, said Kilkelly, were July’s figures, which saw the number of crystalline silicon panels imported from China exceed the number imported during the previous fiscal year. Then when Solyndra blamed its inability to keep up with prices coming from China, the SolarWorld trade petition moved ahead at a quicker pace.

“We’ve monitored the market very closely in the Americas, and we’ve noticed too much injury happening to the industry as a whole. There’s been a whole handful of solid companies that went out of business. With the artificial pricing, it was just apparent what was going on.”

So SolarWorld began to take its case to other American manufacturers. According to SolarWorld, many of the companies he spoke with agreed that they were facing the same challenges, yet all were hesitant to move ahead publicly out of fear of retaliation from Chinese companies. What transpired was a coalition of the seven manufacturers headed by SolarWorld.

“We asked for the coalition and we vetted them out,” said Kilkelly. “We said we’d respect [their anonymity] and take the position and we’ll take care of it ourselves.

“This is a U.S. action to protect a U.S. industry,” said Kilkelly.  “We’ve been a leader in the industry in the last 35 years and this was our time to step up again.”

KilKelly also expressed concern over a different set of rules from American and Chinese manufacturers. To illustrate his point, he pointed to Jinko Solar, which faced a recent resident revolt over the dumping of chemicals. The violent protests forced the factory to close down temporarily. It has since reopened and company officials say they have addressed the environmental concerns.

“In China, you have the Jinko revolt over chemicals, and yet we’re held to EPA standards and sustainability standards,” said Kilkelly. “If there’s free trade, there has to be transparency. There’s no transparency going on with subsidies and how they are affecting the market.”

The company says it has received strong support since it became public that it was heading up the filing of the trade complaint.

“We figured there would be some reprisal,” said Kilkelly. “The overwhelming support over the last 24 hours was unexpected. It’s that much of a global impact. The injury doesn’t just go to U.S. companies; the injury goes to the entire industry. Basically, they said it was about time someone did something about this. That is the undercurrent. Ask anybody, and they say, ‘Thumbs up.’”

Yet the company is aware that there is a strong contingent of American downstream manufacturers and installers that see 100 percent tariffs as an impenetrable roadblock in their own business model.

Attorney Timothy Brightbill of Wiley Rein, the firm representing SolarWorld in the trade case, said that even though a recent SEIA report showed that the U.S. was a net exporter of solar products to China in 2010, it represents an unsustainable model for the long term.

“That study is predicated on the fact that we export raw materials and capital equipment and bring back finished goods from China. I’ve seen it over and over in basic manufacturing and in advanced manufacturing. If you export steel scraps and you get back cars and appliances, pretty soon, the whole industry is not sustainable. China will develop it’s own sources for capital equipment and raw materials and then the whole supply chain will be gone.”

According to Photon, Kilkelly said in an interview at SPI that he would be resigning from the SEIA board effective immediately. The publication says that Kilkelly "claims that the SEIA has been infiltrated by Chinese and other foreign companies, making it impossible for SEIA to be an unbiased arbiter" and that "SolarWorld’s recent petition ... was necessary because the company could not get a fair hearing within the solar trade organization."

 

Executive Roundtable

For Shugar, Cinnamon and Harris, the move represented a dangerous new element to an industry that is still in its infancy. Below is a series of quotes from the discussion.

Barry Cinnamon, CEO, Westinghouse Solar

The market’s growing up. And especially what that means for our industry, is there’s a lot more installation jobs out there.  I cringe when I think about the number of installation jobs and projects that would get canceled around the country if the price of panels were to double overnight.

The best story that we as an industry have is that costs have come down.  You know, that solar is now cost-effective….that it has become less than grid-parity in so many places and we as an industry have got to be out of our cotton pickin’ minds to say, ‘Oh, we want to double the price of solar panels.’  The paranoid part of me thinks that it’s some solar companies plus the fossil energy companies that are behind this anti-dumping charge because the answer will be very clearly if that goes into effect and prices have doubled [because] there’s a 100 percent tariff put in place, that our industry will crater, slow down, [and] there will be 100,000 jobs lost and we would be set back five years.

Cell phones are made in China for, you know, free and it’s wonderful. You think about how big the IT, the computer, the software, the cell phone industry, the telecommunications industry has gotten because the enabling components are very inexpensive, if we could make those solar panels inexpensive regardless of where they are manufactured, we create such a big vibrant industry.

Dan Shugar, CEO, Solaria

At Solaria corporation we manufacture panels both in the U.S. and overseas. I think a lot of the hysteria about these issues is really overblown. And it’s important to look at other industries. The semi-conductor industry did not go to Asia because labor rates were lower. That’s a fallacy.  Because whether its semiconductor or solar, a lot of these processes are very automated. They really went to the other countries due to access to capital. 

It’s important to really keep in mind that U.S. industries still had net exports of 1.9 billion dollars last year. If we have the right industrial policy, you know essentially incentivizing proven manufacturing technologies here in the U.S., we could also create additional jobs but we are still a net exporter.  So, we don’t think this particular development is constructive for anyone.

I think it’s a little premature to try to asses what a potential tariff  on imported panels would do to the pricing. I think the main thing is looking at the global market and understanding that the competitiveness of these products has really driven the cost-effectiveness of solar.

Arno Harris, Recurrent Energy

It’s a disappointing development, and it is one that has the potential to distract from important issues and really distract from the successes we are seeing in the solar industry, and potentially even to be counterproductive and harm some of the growth we’ve seen. If we now get into a dispute over who sells panels in the United States for what price, we ultimately run the risk of hurting that engine of demand and growth that is creating jobs, and instead of protecting and saving jobs we may end up destroying them.

The exiting development we’ve seen is the rapid accelerating reduction of costs. This is accelerating the horizon of grid parity. The tremendous demand that we have seen coming from both the residential and commercial segment, and even more importantly now from the utility segment...is potentially at risk now if we start to do things like put barriers in place that prevent the best-cost, most competitive technology from reaching the market.

The cost trajectory is going to create challenges for this industry in the same way as when hard drives became less expensive [or] when memory chips became less expensive. It massively increased demand, but it also created a lot of stress on companies that had invented exciting technologies or been a part of the birth of an industry. And in many ways, I think going through this kind of cost reduction and suffering the stresses it places on the industry is part of growing up. I can sympathize with the companies that are wrestling with that dynamic. We can choose to either look backward in our response or look forward. This trade dispute falls into the “looking backward” category and it’s attempting to preserve market prices in a way it has historically been served. At the end of the day, the key is to reduce costs, make solar more competitive and allow it to contribute to our conventional energy mix.

92 Comments

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greg chick
greg chick
November 5, 2011
Yes, it is very compelling, as it was meant to be.
Greg Chick, I once worked for Nat. Gas Co. as a Marketer.
william payne
william payne
November 5, 2011
Natural gas media manipulation alleged.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/could-shale-gas-reignite-the-us-economy-11032011.html
greg chick
greg chick
November 4, 2011
Good question, if your statements are true then public manipulation is at large again in the media
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
November 4, 2011
This entire article is based on a fallacy Solar World is a German owned company. All but one of the remaining six companies are foreign owned and manufacture in the US. So only one US compnay is represented. And so we see First Solar leading the charge -- no.

So what is going on?- European companies are using the US to fight for their competitive advantage to get into the US market

Similar things happened in Ontario with suits before the WTO because Ontario has 60$ domestic product clause in its FIT . Ontario won both cases.

Can someone please define just who are these American owned PV solar panel companies besides First Solar and Suniva (who manufactures in china as well). Most of the others I know are in chapter 7

Why does the media refer to this as US companies taking a stand --- when they are not US companies
william payne
william payne
November 3, 2011
William --

Suzanne Hammelman asked that I respond to your question.

Natural gas prices will increase because coal-powered generation plants would be retired prematurely and companies would move to natural gas (so demand would increase). The four regulations that we refer to -- and that are used in the attached analysis by National Economic Research Associates (NERA) -- are predicted to increase natural gas-fired generation by 19.7 percent on average over the period of 2012 to 2020. The increases in natural gas prices would lead to an estimated average increase in costs of about $8 billion per year for residential, commercial and industrial natural gas consumers, which translates into an increase of $52 billion over the 2012-2020 period (present value in 2010$ as of 2011 discounted at 7 percent).

It is important to note that NERA used natural gas price information from the U.S. Department of Energy.

Thank you for your interest.

Regards,

Scott

Thursday November 3, 2011 15:37


http://www.prosefights.org/deaton/deaton.htm#think
william payne
william payne
October 29, 2011
Hey Bill,
I just listened to the conversation you had with Steve from 310, and feel as though some clarification is needed.

Your google search brough you to PNM's Legacy rates, after 31AUG10 everything changed for the worse. The legacy system and associated rates were much more straight forward. The REC rate paid on a small PV system ( 10Kw) they were willing to pay 15 cents. Regardless of system size the wholesale value of 1Kw worth of power was just about .03357 cents. ....

http://www.prosefights.org/nmsea08232011/nmsea08232011.htm#kloepper
william payne
william payne
October 29, 2011
View gulch-installed New Mexico Storing Energy fom the Sun solar array.

http://www.prosefights.org/nmgco/nmgco.htm#homan2
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 29, 2011
Wow. Someone else who is as politically cynical as I am. I bet we could really clear a room at a party.

It's funny how one side or the other can take a .01% margin as a "mandate from the people". I see an election which ends in a statistical tie as the people's collective unconscious recognizing that there is no difference between the choices.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
October 29, 2011
@ gordon-gunn-176195

'It is beyond me how anyone with half a brain who considers themselves middle class could get behind the Republican agenda.'

Very easy explanation
'nature abhors a vacuum'

Just like in nature, in politics any time there is a total lack of leadership something will always come about to fill the void. The vacuum. For many years now we have been dealing with what most people consider two political parties. In fact in reality we have been dealing with one party with two faces,both of which have the same basic agenda:serve as a sort of protection racket for those who really hold all the power.Limbaugh is an unelected member of this same racket. What we call the democratic party is nothing more than a political construct set up to keep up the illusion of democracy.An illusion of freedom and choice. I believe it was one of the early leaders of the abolitionist movement who stated that 'requests for change are ignored.Only DEMANDS made by large enough majorities actually achieve real change'

It's been a long,long time since I can remember anyone calling themselves a Democrat who demanded change of any kind. With Obama he doesn't even request change let alone make demands.

We want solar and renewables rather than crude oil and fracking? Demand it. Yell loud and long with a well thought out argument. Keep nibbling around the edges of change and electing those who are merely card board cutouts of real leaders with a wireless voice box linked to the propaganda machine and productive change will elude you forever.Just more 'representatives' who give you the 'warm and fuzzies' and keep you in this dream of being truly free. When an old grizzled Soviet merchant marine was once asked what difference he saw between the US and the Soviet Union he quickly stated 'you think you're free and we know we are not'

Remain uninvolved and elect those candidates 'they' serve up for you and you'll never be free
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 29, 2011
"Although America is the fastest growing solar market in the world today, short sighted Republicans are still fighting the renewable energy industries. "

Don't underestimate the cunning of politicians. Each and every spending/tax reform posed by Republicans is part of a three card Monty game designed to make the already rich still richer. Look over here at this hand (war on drugs, gay marriage, abortion, terrorism threats, etc.) while I move the queen with the other. It only appears short sighted; they are taking the very long view.

It is beyond me how anyone with half a brain who considers themselves middle class could get behind the Republican agenda.
Vasuki Nag
Vasuki Nag
October 29, 2011
Even if the the labor cost is lower in China, it is not a great advantage with thin film solar panels. Germany has been able top develop vibrant solar industry through wise policies. Although America is the fastest growing solar market in the world today, short sighted Republicans are still fighting the renewable energy industries.

Instead of restricting imports of solar products, affordable solar panels with micro inverters should be sold as commodity products at retail stores like Home Depot which could be installed easily by local electricians in 3 - 4 hours.

In Alibaba.com, many vertical integrators are offering complete 1000W (1KW) solar systems starting at $2,000, whereas in America, residential solar systems cost around $30,000. Bringing down the cost is the best method to enable large scale renewable energy revolution in America and the world.
greg chick
greg chick
October 28, 2011
Subsidies are not included in the conversation on Coal and Oil! When Alt. products try to weigh in it is a given that the retail cost of Fossil is the baseline Possibly due to the billions of subsidy dollars are no discussed when the media is still harping on PV subsidies that fail.
Greg Chick
Lawrence Schrank
Lawrence Schrank
October 27, 2011
What the Financial times article I mentioned in my earlier post essentially stated that China has some serious problems coming at them...When I lived and worked with the central government in Beijing I saw first hand that Mao did some really foolish things while in power..not to mention evil ones. The point that stood out to me, and one i agree with is that the west is going to have to think about what to do about the collapse of China more than it does about it's rise....

Still dry in BKK,

Lawrence
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
October 27, 2011
I would note that during the first years of oil development as a source of energy over coal/wood there was disproportionate subsidizes to help its development. Oil no longer needs those subsidizes.

Given the relative to oil, early state of solar energy, should it not have a proportionate start-up effort to get it going?

I won't claim wind is early, because wind is actually older tech then oil or coal, just not for converting to electricity. But Solar is relatively new tech that needs to be developed.

When oil was developed the US was a large player in its development and we still rule the price because of it. Meanwhile China plans on being a big developer of Solar... I think you can see where this is going.
william payne
william payne
October 27, 2011
I get paid to waste electricity?

audio

http://www.prosefights.org/nmsea08232011/audio/steve310/steve310.mp3

regards,
http://www.prosefights.org/nmsea08232011/nmsea08232011.htm#kloepper
Lawrence Carroll
Lawrence Carroll
October 27, 2011
Gordon, I agree with you, more or less.

"When I hear the hue and cry for doing away with all government regulation, it just comes across to me as a ploy to get a license to pillage. The reason regulation is necessary . . ."

Our history certainly bears this out.

The problem as I see it is that throughout history, humans have tended to distort, pervert, and completely invert the various philosophies, religions etc.

Lenin, Stalin etc. were hardly advised by Marx to live in luxurious Dachas, much less to initiate "innovations" like the KGB, gulags, etc. Likewise, many so-called "free enterprise capitalists" are always forgetting to mention the many ways government has paved their way - they only get angry at welfare when it helps poor and middle class people or small businesses.

Imagine if Ayn Rand's hero, John Galt (from Atlas Shrugged) was depicted as relishing the idea of getting cheap raw materials for industry by having the US military invade central American and killing tens of thousands of peasants so that their land could be appropriated and mined without royalty payments, or even permission. Unfortunately, in real life, that is the real face of much capitalism, just as communism was often anything but what Marx envisioned (or the Spanish Inquisition was based on the words of Christ).
Bill Carroll
Bill Carroll
October 27, 2011
Nice try. But this your figures do not include all of the subsidies that are given to renewables.

Corn fuel is listed as a subsidy to regular fuel. It is not.

You do not account for subsidies by end users like the higher than market rates utilities pay for so called non metered reverse energy alleged to go back to the grid.

The subsidy is enormously out of balance from a percentage basis and from a gross dollar basis.

So I am for ending all the subsidies are you?
greg chick
greg chick
October 27, 2011
So true, further, people are like children and at times hate their parents for forcing them to brush their teeth. But want a parent to pay for Dental work, and will even blame parents for their own weaknesses or limitations. I think we have a behavioral issue in the world, so I married a Psychiatrist, and did not have children.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 27, 2011
'But . . . given the history of very imperfect human nature, however, it is hard to believe that any real, comprehensive revolution will take place soon. But here's hoping . . . !'

When I hear the hue and cry for doing away with all government regulation, it just comes across to me as a ploy to get a license to pillage. The reason regulation is necessary is that, sad to say, human beings have repeatedly (and in some cases spectacularly) demonstrated that they cannot be trusted not to sell the country, the civilization, and even life on this planet as we know it down the river in the face of individual financial incentive. Yes, regulation costs a lot and yes, it can to some extent restrict growth, cost jobs, and stifle innovation, but reverting to Wild West lawlessness is far worse for us as a whole, despite the advantages to some individuals.

As my mom is fond of saying, no drop of water blames itself for the flood.
Lawrence Carroll
Lawrence Carroll
October 27, 2011
crosmmer, your link was very good.

In addition to that imbalance, however, another one will continue to persist even if we were to shift all the subsidies over to solar and other alternatives.

The problem is this: currently, even with our own relatively small subsidies to the alternative energy sector, the large corporations (that have gotten tons of subsidies for so long) have gotten into the field themselves, and thus reaped even more entitlements. Thus, by doing "the right thing" they are feeding again on the public trough, and using that money to continue "business as usual": buying politicians and the public alike (think lobbyists and the media, respectively).

While it is nice to see huge corporations (like Bechtel) building things like solar thermal power plants, at the same time it would be a lot nicer if it was being doing more by emerging start-ups, or even individuals completely apart from any government or corporate influence (like say the fictional John Galt, Ayn Rand's hero in ATLAS SHRUGGED).

I'm not, however, opposing the "socialist democratic" model that Europe and places like Australia have. Since WWII these countries (until recently) had pretty secure social-services, and tend to embrace new and greener technology.

Since true greed motivated most of our so-called capitalism from its start (where the so called "rugged individuals" of the corporate world simply used any honest profits to get easy money, contracts, and land from the government - often surreptitiously), perhaps the only remedy will be a benign socialism that equalizes the insane excesses that we are experiencing now.

The only other possible solution would be to have a "true capitalist" system where no one can ever get subsidies of any type.

But . . . given the history of very imperfect human nature, however, it is hard to believe that any real, comprehensive revolution will take place soon. But here's hoping . . . !
william payne
william payne
October 26, 2011
Wednesday October 26, 2011 14:33

http://www.prosefights.org/nmsea08232011/nmsea08232011.ht#kloepper

1 kWh not KW.

A kilowatt-hour is the unit by which residential and most business customers are billed for their monthly electric use. It represents the use of one kilowatt of electricity — or 1,000 watts — for one hour. For example, a 1,000-watt appliance, used for one hour, would use one kilowatt-hour of electricity. Similarly, a 100-watt light bulb, burning for 10 hours, also would use one kilowatt-hour of electricity.

2 PNM's average residential electric customer uses about 530 kilowatt-hours of electricity.

3 (PNM pays you back @ $0.13/kWh), not $.03.

Electricity Rates and Riders View

Small photovoltaic renewable energy certificate
Large Photovoltaic Renewable Energy Certificate
and especially
Solar Renewable Energy Certificate Purchase Programs look to only pay $.012/kWh

4 Powering electric heaters outside may be a simpler and cheaper way to waste electricity? 1 kWh = 3412.14163 BTU.
william payne
william payne
October 26, 2011
Bill,

My name is John Kloepper, I write you from Alamogordo.

I've been spending a good chunk of the afternoon reading your prosefights web site. I feel like i've only scratched the surface, so allow for for the moment to hold off on any thoughts or site related comments.

One thing I did realise as I read through your site was that I would apprecite your thoughts or opinion on a situation I find myself facing with PNM.

I have put together a youtube video on the subject: http://youtu.be/jDPUQllw8HY
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 26, 2011
The need for domestic solar panel production is really pretty simple. Reasonable estimates for full development of solar in the US is over 2 trillion dollars.

With panels making up 30% of the cost, the math is simple. Where are we going to get the $600 billion dollars for those panels if it is not money recycled through our economy through domestic manufacturing.

Do we have to be competitive? Of course, but do we have to have the lowest cost per watt to develop the industry in America? No.

We are subsidizing this industry because the cost of oil wars is playing a strategic role in bankrupting this nation. Also the environmental costs associated with Fracting and oil sands production are being ignored.

This country is simply screwed if we do not develop a domestic renewable energy manufacturing capacity.
Ralph Perez
Ralph Perez
October 26, 2011
If lower prices via China are what it takes to get consumer owned solar on American rooftops, then, so be it. Having a low cost "consumer owned energy" from free sunshine is the greater issue. The current economy calls for affordability – not a license to price gouge from solar producers. The Chinese are quickly discovering that automated robotics will bring them more bang for their buck. Solar powered/assisted factories make production of goods even cheaper in the long term, as any business paying a monthly utility bill understands.
Many of our politicians are being bought and sold and told what to do by oil/energy/utility company related dollars. Obviously China does not have the same problem. They also move in 5 year increments - not via lifetime politicians. America does not have the political quickness needed in a rapidly technologically changing world. That may be our downfall in the coming years. The slow footed move to "free energy from sunlight" is just 1 example of how existing corporate structures spend billions to hold back progress and maintain the status quo.
Will Japan shut out lower cost solar PV for its citizens? More likely they will embrace it as they move towards rebuilding a cleaner future with aggressive FIT's, putting widely distributed solar rooftops across the newly built areas? They understand that after the initial investment – the energy is free and will benefit their economy and future quality of life.
william payne
william payne
October 25, 2011
John Kloepper comments on solar from Alamagordo, NM

http://www.prosefights.org/nmsea08232011/nmsea08232011.htm#kloepper
greg chick
greg chick
October 25, 2011
Sun Tech is good stuff! I agree, we are not in need of China bashing or Republican/Democrate platform bashing, but a fair playing field. Dumping fees are being charged to shipments, I am told. the money goes to ???? but the imbalance is still created. It isnt China I object to, it is US Policy makers that serve special interests. We might as well get used to China. and fix USA. China is going to come around to reality on their own when the working class there gets smart. Balance is what I want to see. I actually respect the Asian workforce.
Tim Dolan
Tim Dolan
October 25, 2011
I am just going to add this bit of trivia.
SunTech (a Chinese company) has a panel manufacturing plant in Arizona. So those panels are 'Made in America' and thus would likely not be subject to tariffs.

Also a Suntech Panel survived a fall from the top of my second story roof during a hurricane and is back on my roof working as good as ever. It was the American made rail system let it go.

As much as I am buy American, some of the Chinese solar PV systems are outstanding. And some are now made in America.

What would be investigated is if there is actual money subsidizing the whole of the Chinese market to deliberately undercut the American manufacturing (in which case tariffs are appropriate until properly compensated for the loss of industry). However, If it subsidizes to build up their manufacturing base, then it is our own dumb fault for not doing the same before they do it.

and BTW, in my day job I am a defense contractor and it paid for my solar panels.
Curt Sommer
Curt Sommer
October 25, 2011
It gets tiresome hearing people complain about subsidies to the renewables industry.

Here's something to complain about.

http://ezsolarhouse.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/what-if-solar-energy-received-the-same-subsidies-as-fossil-fuels/
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 25, 2011
"While complaining, we get into our Chinese car..."

Chinese car? Point taken, anyway. ;^)
ANONYMOUS
October 25, 2011
Deosn't it all start with us? The generel consumer?
We all complain about the Chinese manufactures and their low prices and that there is less and less US manufacturing which in return hurts our economy.
While complaining, we get into our Chinese car,talk to our spouse on the chinese manufactured cell phone and drive to Wal Mart to buy some more Chinese low priced products because.
In the end its our own fault. We are all not supporting America. Dont call for governments to implement domestic content laws, start in your own backyard. The consumers create the market demand. If there is a demand fopr US Made products then there will be US made products. And each one of you can help make that change.
ANONYMOUS
October 25, 2011
The USA subsidizes oil and coal industries and dumps the product on its world and USA market. China has backed some more sustainable industries after seeing what the polluting ones can do.
Children cry when they believe their needs will not be met.
This still is a wonderful life for the mind at peace within itself.
We are never threatened but by our own thoughts.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 25, 2011
Larry said: 'Pure unbridled capitalism and communism are more similar than they are different. They both have the ultimate goal of absolute power and wealth and they both see the average person as just a pawn on a chess board with very little real value other than how they help them play the game.'

Thank you. I have been saying (sometimes shouting) that precise point for, I dunno, 20-30 years. My friends smile crookedly and change the subject, and folks I am arguing with both on the left and on the right approach apoplexy. To staunch conservatives I am a raving liberal and to hard core liberals I am a rabid conservative. How can I be both? It's relative, of course.

Capitalism and socialism (or liberalism and conservatism) are the left and right eyes of binocular vision; neither is 'correct' and without incorporating both you have no depth perception.

Conservatives are not the enemy. Liberals are not the enemy. Capitalism is not the enemy. Socialism is not the enemy.

Extremism is the enemy.
Justin V
Justin V
October 25, 2011
SolarWorld is not blaming Solyndra...
http://www.eenews.net/tv/video_guide/1416?page=1&sort_type=date

--Aside from that. Americans should get out of the wal-mart mindset. It's an endless cycle that will continue to hurt U.S. manufacturing as a whole. I'd rather pay more money knowing that the solar panel on my roof was manufactured in the U.S. and created manufacturing jobs here. Anyways what's the difference between foreign oil and Chinese panels?
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
October 25, 2011
There are still little pockets of innovation and creativity in the US. Example. I just came back from SPI in Dallas. Out of the thousands of exhibits only a few stood out. Midnite Solar had a display of their latest products and every one of them clearly stood out from anything the Chinese produce.

On Chinese modules and their 'eating our lunch'?


Remember there are no borders or nationalities when it comes to capital and how it is allocated or where it is moved too.
China,a purely communistic dictatorship,is now out-competing the US and other 'capitalist' countries. SEEMS ODD? YOUR SURPRISED? Shouldn't be. Pure unbridled capitalism and communism are more similar than they are different. They both have the ultimate goal of absolute power and wealth and they both see the average person as just a pawn on a chess board with very little real value other than how they help them play the game. Abolish pure capitalism and replace with active informed citizens participating in a form of democratic socialism and the human species has at least a chance of survival. Embrace 'free market' capitalism as the US currently has and you get what you deserve. It really is just that simple. Currently the US is being 'milked' (at least till this cow is dead) by the capitalist/communists to feed our massive machine of death and destruction ironically called the department of defense (War & Death department is far more appropriate) Of course to flush this madness out our our system you will first have to see Republican's and so called conservatives and conservative Democrats for what they are. Violent and ignorant greedy predators who have to be caged and segregated from more civil society. Hyperbolic? Only slightly from my historical vantage point.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 25, 2011
"...a great comment by Hawkster: 'Because short term profits took a back seat to long term prosperity.'"

Personally, I think just the opposite has happened. The quick buck trumps sustainability every time.
Gareth Hackett
Gareth Hackett
October 25, 2011
a great comment by Hawkster: "Because short term profits took a back seat to long term prosperity."

This can be applied to almost every industry worldwide and is ultimately the underlying cause of the Occupy Wall Street or Whereever.

Money truly is the root of all evil.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 25, 2011
'Every society eventually gets the economy and government it deserves. Where were the voices, the votes, the protests and the discontent 10 years ago?'

My friends all thought I was somewhat of a crackpot more than fifteen years ago when I (correctly, as it turns out) predicted the longer term effects of Reganomics on the US economy. Throw the middle class a bone to buy their support, give the already rich a huge and recurring windfall, turn the crank for 20 years, and this is what you get. It all seems great at first, but then the second order effects take over.

This is a global situation. The Arab Spring, the riots in the UK, the Euro currency crisis, Occupy Wall Street... it's all of a piece. The world has been playing a game of economic Musical Chairs, and the music just stopped. Greed rules the day, and economic predation and hoarding is the winning strategy. Too bad about the rest of us.
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 25, 2011
A basic understanding of class warfare
(this isn't pretty but it's honest)

The people in power cannot step down because the skeletons in their closets will cost them their heads. They will leave in cuffs or in a box.

To vent a country economically you must vent it politically as well. The old guard must be put aside and vanquished and replaced with a new guard, dedicated to a strong and prosperous middle class. The models we build must be sustainable.

We must fight these people on a level playing field. And when the battles are over and hopefully we have won, we hope and pray that we have not become just like them.
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 25, 2011
Every society eventually gets the economy and government it deserves. Where were the voices, the votes, the protests and the discontent 10 years ago?...locked up in fear misled by patriotic acts of tyrants. And so it is for solar panels

If you want class warfare, you have to be willing to sacrifice. Dont buy products, go without, vote, get educated, speak out. get as crazy as they are....

I think the best way to promote solar is to convince the right wing conservatives that fossil fuels require stem cell research
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 25, 2011
"Gordon -- It is easy to blame government , to make it Us and Them when it is really we I prefer Pink Floyd in describing the situation also 30 years ago. "

It's just that our government makes it so easy to blame them. They are so much in the pockets of Big Money and Big Oil (the same pocket, really) that they aren't even trying to be subtle about it any more. Everything they do is geared toward making the already rich still richer and harvesting the middle class as if we were herd animals cultivated for their benefit.

The rich whine that this is "class warfare". Dang straight it is; did you expect us not to return fire?

end rant for now
Mihai grumazescu
Mihai grumazescu
October 25, 2011
PV products commoditization is hurting the industry more than anything else. They are exposed to the Wall Street roulette. Strangely, Stock exchanges are never indicted for price fixing in spite of the fact that this is essentially what they are doing.
We should recognize that PV panels are very different from each other and are not a commodity like gas turbines or hydro generators are not either.
A related problem is the fact that the industry grew through public, not private companies. The management is different and in public companies is notoriously unaccountable. A good example of how it should work is SMA who remained a private profitable company holding the biggest slice of the inverters' pie.
Juan Castanon
Juan Castanon
October 25, 2011
Dear Joel,

I disagree with you, I don't think that it's that easy to say it is an underperforming technology that has vastly been oversold, I personally visited China last year and was impressed of the size of some PV module manufacturing facilities.
The U.S. clearly didn't give any impotance to this type of technology. today Solar has finally proved it does work, suddenly the U.S. sets complaints.
Im really curious to see what is going to happen with this so called complaint. If something interesting happens with this issue keep an eye on the stocks of some chinese public companies which btw quote their stocks in the amercian market.
Lawrence Schrank
Lawrence Schrank
October 25, 2011
This is an interesting conversation, I would like to add one thing...a few days back I read an article in Financial times http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/03/the_top_ten_unicorns_of_china_policy I agree with this assessment and feel too much fear exists regarding China...They are in for some real challenges. I served as Senior technology adviser for UNIDO represented China at some major conferences, I could see these trends back then. At the same time, I have relocated my family to Bangkok, I feel this is Asia's century but am not counting America out..we just need some long term perspective. Read the piece and factor it into your analysis...


Regards,

Lawrence
Joel Fairstein
Joel Fairstein
October 24, 2011
If the Chinese want the PV market that badly, fine. It's an underperforming technology that's been vastly oversold, particularly in areas with poor solar resource. We in the U.S. can do much better, if we're willing to mix energy efficiency with regionally cost-effective renewables.
greg chick
greg chick
October 24, 2011
I would vote "God" "oh God" on "We are only in it for the Money" was Eric Clapton's voice This has been a long time coming and I fear wont go away easy.
It is not China vs US it is the Human Condition (Greed) and leadership is missing. we need leadership!
Juan Castanon
Juan Castanon
October 24, 2011
For me is difficult to understand that the U.S. didn't see this coming. However regulation in trades must be stricter in issues regarding renewable energies.
I understand SolarWorld, but I hope is not too late.
I would like to know if the U.S. Would be able to supply a a panel for 1.30 USD per w/peak with quality materials, I really dont think this could happen.
Complaint time is too late , the price per watt is getting lower and lower every year. Lets see if the U.S. Can catch up.
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
Gordon -- It is easy to blame government , to make it Us and Them when it is really we I prefer Pink Floyd in describing the situation also 30 years ago.

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
And cold comfort for change?
Did you exchange
A walk on part in the war,
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl,
Year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found
The same old fears.
Wish you were here.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 24, 2011
I'm sorry you have a head like a potato, I really am.

I love quoting Zappa. One of my faves is his take on our leaders, written 30 years ago and truer now than it ever was.

The name of the game down in Washington
Is takin' care of Number One.
And Number One ain't you
You ain't even Number Two.

Rest easy, Uncle Frank. I would have voted for you for President.
greg chick
greg chick
October 24, 2011
Gordon,
As in the Apostrophe? I need a little more cheapness please. I agree, we have been Porked. like a tiny little potato headed whatcha ma call-its Humor is all I got left, for this system.
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 24, 2011
'The investing class milked the process and simply refused to reinvest in America.'

And that, as Uncle Frank was fond of saying, is the crux of the biscuit. The trickle down theory of Reaganomics said that the huge windfall given to the rich by the tax reforms of the early 80's would result in sustainable prosperity for us all. What it got us was gigantic investments in offshore manufacturing by the so-called 'job creators' and massive outsourcing of jobs.
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 24, 2011
Jeffrey,

You asked some good questions. Let's see if I can answer them.


Now here is the question, Why isnt the US the one pulling the strings and leading the way?

Because at the top of our food chain is international banking and the management levels of the intelligence industries. These folks are not the innovators. They took our best and brightest, the engineers and scientists and funneled them into the weapons industry and sales.

These same folks (Finance/ Intelligence) took our manufacturing base and first sent the assembly overseas because of investment returns. The best of these assemblers became techs and the best techs gradually ended up engineers. Those engineers developed the next generation of new products. The investing class milked the process and simply refused to reinvest in America.

Where were their foresight, innovation and forward thinking.

You are an Engineer and I am a systems analyst. We saw it coming. A lot of us did but the system didn't ignore us, this system went out of its way to silence us, to protect this corrupt circus. They were more interested in short term profits than sustainability and it is finally coming to a head. (The More I learn about this government, the more I appreciate the French Revolution. )

Why is the US behind China in the first place? The message speaks for itself. Because short term profits took a back seat to long term prosperity.
Clay Hopmann
Clay Hopmann
October 24, 2011
There is an Excellent article in today's business section of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette on exactly this issue of Chinese prodution of PV panels/cells. They have low cost manufacturing but new technology will be coming out of silicon valley as stated in the article.

Go Solar!!! Wow 40 comments already!!! This is one Hot topic!!!
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
A price war with China is not a war the US can win. I say game over. Move aside US, the next Big boy on the block is going to take your lunch money and there is not much you can do about it now. The solution needed addressing 10 years ago 2 wars ago, and 14 trillion dollars of debt ago
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
Hawkster -- you can not have your cake and eat it to. You can not claim that the living standard for Chinese workers and engineers are on par with the rest of the world and then claim that China has a labor force advantage. Yes they are importing cars and luxuries on a absolute scale but they also have nearly 4 times the population. Do not underestimate the work ethic of the Chinese -- to get an idea just imagine your grandparents generation

Second Question. it is obvious what the Chinese are doing with regards to monopoly. And why are they doing it? -- because they can. They were not stupid nor greedy basing GDP on revolving debt and bubble scams

Now here is the question, Why isnt the US the one pulling the strings and leading the way? Where were their foresight, innovation and forward thinking. Why is the US behind China in the first place? The message speaks for tiself
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 24, 2011
"The Chinese and developing countries are going to take over many markets if Americans dont stop being so arrogant and start taking this major issue with all the seriousness it deserves The empire is crumbling while it is its citizens that will soon have "no clothes". STOP the arrogance -- the US is in real trouble here."


IMO, the single biggest trouble that the US economy (and therefore the US itself) has is that there are far too many people "earning" money by moving money around and far too few actually producing anything of value.
greg chick
greg chick
October 24, 2011
It is working, dig in your heels guys, let us have true competition and may the best Country win. It is down to this, I agree with Eric America has gotten lazy & arrogant. do not under estimate China or it will be our last mistake as America.
Kick ass get to work even if you need to drive a car to work in heavy traffic.
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 24, 2011
Jeffery,

I have to suggest your superior Chinese work ethic is garbage. Especially, related to Engineers in China. I think the evidence shows that the standard of living for educated and skilled Chinese, such as Engineers, Architects and Plant managers is very close to on par with the rest of the world.

Are we really suppose to believe that Engineers in China ride bikes two hours a day to get back and forth to work and on top of that work 12 to 14 hours a day 6 days a week, all for working sewers, electricity, a movie and a dinner with the family once a week. I don't think so.

Let's look at some facts. More new cars were bought in China last year than in America and I have no doubt that those Chinese Engineers bought a major percentage of them. I can believe that Engineers in China often put in 60 hour weeks but that is no different than in the US.

The difference in pricing for the same technology cannot simply be explained by cheaper labor costs and the Chinese work ethic. The truth is that China is dumping surplus production on American Markets at or below costs.

Here are the main reasons behind Chinese dumping of solar panels. (1) Monopoly control of global solar manufacturing.
(2)China is gearing up to be first country with multi-gigawatt factories. Those multi-gigawatt factories will be able to produce solar at less than $1.00 a watt.
eric solorio
eric solorio
October 24, 2011
SolarWorld is a German company; and the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing. SolarWorld didn't "step up"; they "fell flat on their face" and on the way down they reached out and grabbed the US consumer and the US worker (in the US solar industry) to take us down with them!

What the hell has happened to America? So it's okay for the Germans to sell their goods to Americans at higher prices and repatriate their profits from the US to Germany…but its not okay for the Chinese to give us a much better price for the same good – because the Germans say so? Who does this country belong to? Americans, that's who!

We vote at the polls and vote with each and every dollar we spend. In this case, we have voted for PV modules manufactured in China. SolarWorld needs to withdraw their complaint, pick itself up off the ground, work much harder and offer more value to the American consumer - if they want our dollars!
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 24, 2011
Jeffery

I suggest that getting into a price war with China is exactly what we need to do. This country needs to get its fiscal house in order and begin the rebuilding of our domestic industrial base. Cutting off this country's credit card is an excellent start.
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
The arrogance of the Americans will be their downfall. Know your competition. I know Chinese engineers who wake up at 5am to bike one hour to work. They are grateful when water/sewer are connected to their homes, they appreciate electricity in their livingrooms They love being able to have extra money to go to the movies , out to dinner or to afford an sporting outing with their children. School Children study 4 to 6 hours per day and are far better educated than American children. These people work 12 to 14 hours per day and are happy and even exciting to be part of the big change in their society.

The current generation of Americans take too much for granted and think they deserve so much because of their illustrious past and former glory. They have become soft and nature abhors a vacuum -- even one created by self righteousness and arrogance
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
Hankster -- if you put a 30% Tariff on Chinese products, who is the US will build plants at US prices? The goal should be for the US to get off its ass and start being competitive and not get into a price war with the holder of the largest portion of US debt -- china
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 24, 2011
Little J You have absolutely the wrong view of Chinese Panels and hence are missing the severity of the problem. Canadian Solar, Suniva, Suntech, Yingli, Trinia CNPV and hundreds of others are top notch state of the art panels with EXCELLENT performance and manufactured to foreign specs from companies in the US, Germany and Canada. They are not garbage -- they are supreme panels with great warranties and customer service world wide. Dont take the issue too lightly and do not dismiss the Chinese so easily. Assuming that the products are junk because they are made in China is what they used to say about products made in Japan Korea or Germany -- and by the way "Made in the USA" is not reassuring as it once was and is definitely on the decline as the US is quickly losing its once mighty manufacturing capabilities. Americans want too much for too little too fast and that is why they can not get back on track economically. They also fail to recognize the truth that it is entirely possible that within 10-15 years that the US will no longer be number 1. The Chinese and developing countries are going to take over many markets if Americans dont stop being so arrogant and start taking this major issue with all the seriousness it deserves The empire is crumbling while it is its citizens that will soon have "no clothes". STOP the arrogance -- the US is in real trouble here
ANONYMOUS
October 24, 2011
most of these posts are ridiculous punditry...what a waste of time.
ANONYMOUS
October 24, 2011
SolarWorld is now "dead" to me.
Cut your executive pay IF there is such a problem competing! We know that won't happen. They will cut dozens of "workers" before they consider touching executive pay.
SolarWorld got its start from the very kind of government supports it criticizes.
IF successful in this action, SolarWorld's gang will be responsible for KILLING thousands of MWs worth of projects that would have been built in the US over the next 2 years. The price from China is what makes most of these financible.

btw-blaming Solyndra's failure on China is simple madness. Solyndra couldn't compete on price with even the smallest U.S. producers--the business plan was a sham and people in the DOE that approved the loan must be held accountable (FIRED).
Justin V
Justin V
October 24, 2011
Good luck chasing down your warranties from manufacturers out in China.
Bill Carroll
Bill Carroll
October 24, 2011
The US and its allies need to get real and stop this insane subsidy of an energy system that does not work. This is a case where the US is subsidizing both sides of the transaction.

So the Chinese use the subsidy of the installation to meet the demand created by the subsidy to the end user. Then when US Manufacturers get their own susidies, the Chinese use subsidies of their own to lower prices.

Since the only customers using solar and other "renewables" are dependent upon subsidization, installers, suppliers and manufacturers are naturally prone to cash flow problems and unable to compete on a level playing field.

Most innovators like Steve Jobs and other "Robber Barons" like Bill Gates, Henry Ford, John Rockefeller, and many more are well known for making their employees, partners, suppliers, and distributors successful and wealthy too.

This is not true in the solar and renewable energy fields. Each level of activity is dependent upon its own round of government subsidy. But because there is no real innovation in any of the transactions each provider can be easily replaced. Ultimately price is the only determinant in what products get used in a field in which every party has fungible products and services that any other provider can deliver.

But the real tragedy is that the government subsidies not only encourage the dumping by the Chinese, it stifles true innovation. True innovation would create products that need no subsidy. The innovation itself would create true savings in the marketplace without subsidy. Suppliers, employees, distributors, and installers would all get wealthier delivering products and services that save the end users money.

The Renewable Industry needs to get off of subsidies and grow up.
greg chick
greg chick
October 23, 2011
Eric, I have not done my home work, but I fear you are right. I recognize the spineless American Method of Operation. I am American, I see soo many of us get weaker and weaker in an attempt to ride on the coattails of how great we used to be. Now workers want high wage, rights, and to live like a movie star. I have worked my f@#$(*& ass off for 35 yrs. up to 14 hr. days usually 12 hrs. some times 7 days a week. I have a paid off mortgage, not memories of vacations or toys. Our problem is as a country we need leadership, respect, and yes a little fear of getting caught if we cheat.

Greg Chick
eric solorio
eric solorio
October 23, 2011
Chinese have a saying that translates to "talk big and do small". The CDB credit facilities are a fallacy. They were never accessed. PR exercise. Any intelligent and diligent commenter will review the SEC filings and verify that. Moreover, CDB has much stricter requirements for funding loans than we do, that is why our banks are in deep s#!t.

"Dumping" claims are completely unfounded and simply an excuse for a failing business; plan. I don't usually agree with Arno but he hits it on the head here, in that we're simply going through necessary growing pains associated with all technology based industries and their respective markets.

Solyndra "threw away" half of its production because it was defective. Their failure had nothing to do with China's products, prices or policies. Solyndra's failure has everything to do with their lack of a viable product in the first instance, that is why Congress is investigating them and their political influence used to steal our money.

All in all, many comments here seem to think the US, by default, should be "manufacturing goods". This is simply a lack of understanding of economics; competitive advantages and comparative advantages. Bottom line is: solar modules are no different than any other product consumed in the US and therefore the manufacturing base will relocate to the most cost effective location – wherever that may be. Now, get over it!

Its funny how the people who make the most noise about the need to manufacture in America are the same people who shop at Walmart. Walmart (and its patrons) created China's manufacturing base…do your homework.
Jay Gr.
Jay Gr.
October 23, 2011
Clay-hopmann: Yes, they're called cell testers, which is just a small flash tester like they test the wattage output of solar panels with. But the cell can't be already part of a solar panel, it has to be tested by itself. So I'm not sure how that applies "in the field" as you state, since installers aren't taking individual cells out to jobsites....

But to answer the bigger question, some good cells do come out of China, as do bad cells and so-so cells. Same with Taiwan, Germany, and yes the USA.
BTW, one interesting idea that's being implemented by certain state governments: Have a solar rebate and/or PBI, and if the solar products are made in THAT state, the rebate amount or PBI to be paid is DOUBLED.
This has the obvious effect of creating a HUGE local demand for the locally made products....helping create even more local jobs!
The Chinese panels obviously don't qualify for the double rebates....so nobody wants them in those areas.
Alberto Giovanetti
Alberto Giovanetti
October 22, 2011
In Italy is happening the same...or worst. Chinese companies are eating both feed in tariff and 10% premium for made in europe. They are growing their internal industries with our tax. Our PV industries are dieing. If the situation will not change soon, in 6 month. .. game over.
Clay Hopmann
Clay Hopmann
October 22, 2011
You have a good point there hawkster. Any new installation in the U.S. could receive the 30% federal tax credit if the panel is made/assembled in the USA. This would increase American manufacturing for sure! We need these jobs.

One question, if an American manufacturer uses Chinese cells how good are these cells compared to other countries of origin? Anyone have a way to rate/grade a module's cells? Is there a test that can be done in the field by say a solar integrator?

Go Solar!!!!!
Jay Lindberg
Jay Lindberg
October 22, 2011
The Federal government is subsidizing this industry with 30% grants and tax credits to start. If you want to start somewhere with tariffs for Chinese panels, I suggest 30% is an excellent start. At least that way the government grants would be a wash.
Khalid Sulanki
Khalid Sulanki
October 22, 2011
It seems like too many laws is making it a 'law-less' pandemonium and people from inside and outside are having 'their way' legally. Be human my American friends. May be you don't need more laws, only vigilance is needed inside and outside to ONE RULE only that no one does to others what you don't want others do to you. May I say Chinese are getting good at 'getting away' with covert laws and are catching up fast. Did I see some one mention that US sold 25% to 50% more solar related products and machinery to China then she bought from the Dragon.

Not good enough!

Submit or not…'CHINESE ARE COMING'
Lawrence Carroll
Lawrence Carroll
October 22, 2011
Yes, our wasteful spending on 'defense' is our main problem here in the USA! In addition we waste lives and money as well in the drug war, as well as giving money for polluting industries via the Export-Import bank, the World Bank, and the IMF. We also give money to corporations to market their products overseas.

From Mark Zepezauer's book, 'Take the Rich off Welfare' (2004):

'The USDA also provides 'bonuses' to transnationals-many of them foreign firms - so that they can sell US agricultural products in targeted countries at prices below the exporter's cost of acquiring them.' (When other countries do this to us, we call it 'dumping' and protest vociferously, since it has the effect of destroying any unsubsidized competition). . . ' (page 48)

'In 1994, for example, the murderous goverment of Indonesia got over $125 million in Ex-Im loans to buy equipment from Hughes Aircraft. Ex-Im insured a $3 million loan to General Electric to build a factory in Mexico that cost 1500 jobs in Indiana. The Chinese government used an $18 million loan to modernize a steel plant -- even though that company was accused of illegally dumping steel onto US markets below cost.' (page 49)

Of course, these are just a few examples, even from Zepezauers's small book. Our tax money supports all manner of corporate shenanigans.
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 21, 2011
Honders -- In 2011 alone, The Chinese government granted $35 billion dollars in low or no interest loans to seven major Chinese manufacturing companies -- thats $7 billion dollars per company in one year. The Chinese have invested more than $125 billion dollars in 2009 and 2010. For 2012, the forecast is for another $65 billion. The German and Spanish Governments have invested more than $280 Billion Euros in the past decade and hence are the world leaders by at least a decade. A half a billion dollars may seem like a lot but it reality it is a drop in the bucket. The global PV market will hit 450 billion dollars by end of 2012. An average manufacturing plant costs $3 billion dollars. Let´s just say that China invests in solar the way the US invests in fighter jets
Robert Honders Sr.
Robert Honders Sr.
October 21, 2011
So a half BILLION dollars to just one panel maker, Solyndra, is not enough government support of our industry? What Chinese panel maker got anything close to that much?
Let's just face it, the American middle class is in decline, the government and the media are owned by the top 1% and the rest has lost it's ambition and are waiting for real leadership to emerge.
ANONYMOUS
October 21, 2011
#2: "So there needs to be an....adjustment. But a measured one that won't cost installation jobs, like maybe 20% or 25% tarriff on Chinese panels. But definitely NOT double"

Agreed, the Coalition is asking for an investigation. If it is found that the imported modules are selling for 50% of what the actual costs to produce them, then there should be a 100% increase in price. If they are selling at 25% below the cost of what it takes to produce them then the prices will go up 25%.
This is a call for an investigation in trade practices and has reprocussions far outside of the Solar industry as well. THERE IS NO LOVE FOR THE U.S. IN CHINA! THEY ARE NOT DOING THIS BECAUSE THEY WANT THE U.S. TO GO SOLAR AND BE MORE SUSTAINABLE ON OUR OWN!!! just the opposite, they want us to be 100% reliant on them for our goods.

#4:"There was a much easier solution and it should have happened three years ago..."
Probably true, but the US has to face what is in front of us today, building a time machine is probably not on the agenda.

#8:"Who are the other 6 companies that do not wish to be publically named?" Anonymous, so I doubt you will find out on a blog. They are obviously scared of sever potential reprocussions to such a "controversial" but deemed necissary move. Give credit to SW for sticking thier name and neck on the line defending american manufactrers rights (I'm sorry it took a German owned American manufacturer to defend American manufacturing, but at least they are vertically integrate on US soil, not just slapping some modules together)

#11 "Solar World wants to..force all..contractors out of the way [so] Solar World authorized dealers dominate the playing field"

Uh...yeah that's business...the problem is the "playing field" needs a fair referee. If they are part of the WTO, they agreed to a set of rules. If they are violating those rules, they get penalized. If your favorite team gets a 10yd penalty, don't blame the other team.
FE
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 21, 2011
"A few companies are definitely better off after those wars. The defense contractors made tons of money at the tax payers expense!"

And defense contractors have extremely influential lobbyists working for them, who influence the makers of foreign policy, who borrow money from China and spend it on warfare, which makes defense contractors richer and puts us all on the hook for the bill. What a racket!

I believe that in order to have a war the government should have to raise money from contributions from folks who want to fight it. Sorta like the Jerry Lewis Telethon...

Sorry for the digression.
Al C. Rich
Al C. Rich
October 21, 2011
The real damage to the industry would come if these cheap collectors start o fall apart or degrade quickly as one report I read said was happening in some cases. Large megawatt fields failing or degrading quickly, what a Black Eye for solar that will be!

I have been in solar for 32 years and have been thru the Black Eyes solar has taken and it is a very bad thing. Let's do everything we can to be sure that only quality products come in that will last 25 years with the normal degradation.
David Henri
David Henri
October 21, 2011
This is such a complex issue on many levels. PV is extremely price sensitive. To continue to have more of it installed depends on the low pricing the industry has been "enjoying".

To raise the duties on Chinese PV would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. But to loose our domestic PV manufacturing would be a tragedy. We need to think out of the box.

We need to support domestic PV by creating a new market, one of Solar National Parks. Incentives now deployed are used to attract private capital. In contrast Solar National Parks would be owned by the taxpayers. The revenue streams created from the sale of the electricity would be used to enlarge the parks, not to pay back investors. Thus we could build solar powered job creation machines that grow in the sun. This would create steady demand for domestic manufacturing for the long term.
Patrick Cannon
Patrick Cannon
October 21, 2011
Solar World wants to insure that they can force all of the independant design build renwable energy contractors out of the way and that their select club of Solar World authorized dealers dominate the playing field of renewable energy. Solar World should consentrate on finding ways to lower their costs and pricing to be more competetive in the module market rather than trying to jack up pricing in order to compete. This is an obvisious ploy hiding their true agenda.
Clay Hopmann
Clay Hopmann
October 21, 2011
Good point gordon! A few companies are definitely better off after those wars. The defense contractors made tons of money at the tax payers expense! What a waste, it should have all been spent for Renewable Energy!!!
Gordon Gunn
Gordon Gunn
October 21, 2011
"The question we must ask, is Iraq and Afganistan really that much better off after our intervention."

I disagree. I think the question we must ask is if WE are better off after "investing" all that money and all those lives over there. Well, some of us are, that's for sure. I'm not.
Joel Davidson
Joel Davidson
October 21, 2011
Who are the other 6 companies that do not wish to be publically named?
Clay Hopmann
Clay Hopmann
October 21, 2011
The previous poster is very correct, if we had all the money spent on these useless wars, we could have advanced energy independence in the U.S. by light years!!! The question we must ask, is Iraq and Afganistan really that much better off after our intervention. Those countries will probably revert back to the lawless states they were in the beginning.

We do need to keep the price dropping for solar if we want to be able to sell product without state incentives such as we have now in Arkansas.

Go Solar!!
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
Dr. Jeffery Johnson
October 21, 2011
I agree with David. The US should have added a domestic product clause to the 1603 funding. On the other hand this is crying over spilled milk. The US should have started backing its solar energy industry a long time ago. Yet it spent its money on unnecessary wars, bailing out wall street and tax cuts for the rich who obviously did not invest in solar. I do not see German and other international companies flocking to the US for manufacturing like they do to China. As far a US wages and compensation are concerned, it is about time that the US worker woke up to the fact they they can not get so much for so little. China is not a third world economy. Welcome to the real world
Douglas Dewitz
Douglas Dewitz
October 21, 2011
This is a true dilema. If one believes there is a one world order which will move American labor compensation towards that of the third world, I can understand the case for increased tariffs. If that is the case why are there no tariffs on all the Chinese products from tools to cell phones that could be manufactured in America.
On the other hand I become leary of six unrecognised plaintiffs. I want transparency.
The law firm of Wiley Rein is a specialized firm of 275 associate lawyers, I want to know who's' interest is being protected. The American citizen or a special interest.
If it is true that the solar energy industry is allowed to succeed or fail due to corporate and political manipulation the American people need to know this.
David Weinberg
David Weinberg
October 21, 2011
There was a much easier solution and it should have happened three years ago...The 1603 tax credits and grants should have been restricted to American-made goods...end of story. That was what the TARP bail-out was supposed to be about...and if Obama goes down in flames...it will be because he didn't keep his contract with the American people.

If you want to buy Chinese panels, buy them. No tariff protection should be needed. But don't expect support from the American taxpayer. We'll see how much building actually gets done after the cash-grant goes away...and if the tax credit went with it, the entire industry would come to a standstill.
Trevor Kent
Trevor Kent
October 21, 2011
Here in Africa dumping is of great concern a variety of product come in and the objective is obviously to destroy the reputable manufacturers. I have yet to see cheap PV panels but we have everything from Rechargeable Emergency lighting to Trucks many items cost less than the free world cost of the raw materials and energy of production. Therefore there must be subsidy, the products usually fail in a short time.
Joel Fairstein
Joel Fairstein
October 21, 2011
I looked up PV price leaders at ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm and found it's dominated by North American manufacturers. I didn't see any of the firms mentioned in the article. Where are the Chinese manufacturers? Is this data flawed?
Jay Gr.
Jay Gr.
October 21, 2011
Well there is a balancing act to be done here for sure. On one hand China IS DUMPING solar panels on the U.S. market cheaper than they are selling the identical panels to Canada or other countries. (I know because I sell on both sides of the border!)

So there needs to be an....adjustment. But a measured one that won't cost installation jobs, like maybe 20% or 25% tarriff on Chinese panels. But definitely NOT double. That amount would have the effect of killing many thousands of solar projects stateside, and I worry even my business would have to shut down. Then how will I feed my family?
Edward Kalfayan
Edward Kalfayan
October 21, 2011
At current prices solar energy is completely uneconomic in the UK and requires a government feed-in tariff of 44p/KW to justify. The market for US sourced products will be pole axed if your 7 suicide bombers get their way.

Far better to speed up or assist the research on thin film chemistry and and reel to reel printing of the circuitry

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Steve Leone

Steve Leone

Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California.
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