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Veterans, Politicians Team Up in Battle to Change Energy Policy

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64 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 64
September 9, 2011
Both Baucom and Lambert should be pushing the U.S. Migration - there is no other solution that eliminates our petroleum addiction as quickly or as painlessly.

http://etcgreen.com Article: U.S. Migration
Comment
2 of 64
September 9, 2011
Senator Lambert is incorrect in referring to Democrat support of renewable energy to say that "the Democrats have stolen this issue from us." Republicans have abdicated this issue to the Democrats as he accurately goes on to describe.
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Comment
3 of 64
Anonymous
September 9, 2011
This article should include at least some mention of the navy's 'green fleet' and the airline/air force push for bio-jet fuel. Installing solar panels may be good, but petroleum is 99% a transportation fuel.

ectgreen's reference to 'U.S. Migration' or using more diesel vehicles has some gaping holes in its reasoning. Sense we are cracking long chain molecules to make gasoline, increased diesel production is theoretically possible, but US refineries are geared to gasoline, automakers would need to make diesel powered vehicles and filing stations would need to install more pumps. These are the same problems that ethanol faces. Ethanol is capable of equal or higher thermal efficiencies than diesel, is a low carbon molecule and is renewable. It is better than diesel in all of these respects. So how would the price break? (Users will go with the least expensive, even if considering vehicle purchase costs.) Ethanol would need to be less costly per gallon which it is now, but is more costly per BTU than diesel. Increase demand for diesel and this may not remain true. Reality is not as black and white as this etcgreen seems to believe. While recognizing the advantages of diesel, I would go for a long term solution using ethanol. Either could move quickly IF all barriers were addressed. Bill Brandon
Comment
4 of 64
September 9, 2011
@Bill Brandon (Anonymous)

Let's start with what we agree on. The article does not mention the DoD's motivation to move toward renewable fuels - it should.

Petroleum usage the U.S. is 67% transportation and 33% other applications actually. Yes, refineries will have to be modified to produce more diesel fuel, but diesel fuel requires far less energy than gasoline to produce. European refineries extract 32+ gallons of diesel per 42 gallon barrel today. Ethanol is far more expensive per gallon than diesel or biodiesel to produce today and will always be based on the incredibly high energy requirement for its production. The energy return on ethanol is very poor. The evaporation factor of ethanol alone is reason enough not to continue producing this fuel at large scale. Over 60% of all filling stations in the US already sell diesel fuel - the Migration will provide them the funding to replace gasoline tanks with diesel. In 15 years, 25% of all refueling stations in the U.S. will likely not sell gasoline anymore. Many refueling stations in Europe have already gone to biodiesel only pumps. Make it so.

The U.S. has wasted $2.4T over the past 10 years burning low energy gasoline and ethanol in low efficiency engines. We have a 340 page financial analysis of the German economy and several other European nations and a major factor for their current financial success is the fact that they are running over 50% of their light fleets with diesel - all about the 3-5% factor.

etcgreen.com Article: U.S. Migration
Comment
5 of 64
September 9, 2011
I don't think that the US military would be given official duty to protect American oil interests.

Ethanol is hygroscopic and can be corrosive. Ethanol can be processed to create ETBE which doesn't have those problems.
Comment
6 of 64
September 9, 2011
Proof is in the pudding. The DoD is the world leader in converting to non fossil fuels. They want to be energy independent at home (bases) and abroad (supply-lines serving standing facilities and mobile/engaged troops).

This is our #1 national security problem. The supply line to our military does not begin at home; it begins where we purchase the fuel to sustain that supply line. Until we begin treating our dependence as our #1 national security issue, we will have only ourselves to blame for handing those who wish to do us harm all the logistical advantage they need.

My family and I converted to solar hot water heating this year. We refuse to buy another gasoline only fueled vehicle. We will not occupy another home until it is primarily solar powered (but grid tied).If every American committed to doing the same, within a generation (+/-25 years) if the US were still importing oil, the source of those imports could easily be limited to Canada & Mexico.
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Comment
7 of 64
Anonymous
September 9, 2011
@etcgreen Let's continue on what we agree on - efficiency. Inefficient engines running on primarily gasoline need to be eliminated. Diesel and ethanol (ED95 or E100) get essentially the same thermal efficiencies and flat torque curves. High compression SI engines using E70 are not far behind. You are also correct that distillation of diesel is less energy intensive than for gasoline. But where is this petroleum coming from? The US is strongly looking at oil sands and shale. We can't stick a hole in the ground and get petroleum anymore so extraction costs and energy requirements are going up. The EROI for oil sands or shale is about 1.5:1 while existing corn ethanol has an EROI of 2:1. High energy inputs are moving to petroleum not biofuels like ethanol. Then there is the question of reasonable refining proportions - low carbon hydrocarbons will be present and what do we do with them? Presently 'drop-in' biofuels that are exact duplications of diesel or jet fuel can't target their molecules completely. Your contention that ethanol is more costly to produce than diesel or bio-diesel is not consistent with wholesale prices in the US.

If we could immediately drop several thousands of diesel vehicles on the road and have fuel available for them it would be better than what we do now. But in a time frame of say ten years a commitment to deploy ethanol optimized vehicles would be competitive with diesels and have a lower carbon footprint. Bill Brandon
Comment
8 of 64
September 9, 2011
I read the article and all the comments and instead of coming up with a plan of action what each respondent has done is addressed the article in a positive or negative format. Really what can be done to solve the issue is continuation of 1603 Tax Grant, build large scale solar farms for utilities and take a quantum leap in the number of electric vehicles that are produced.

In the US we should be building a new national transportation system so cars become our second choice in most locations.
Nothing extraordinary comes easy but we have a problem and there are ways to solve it. As was the case with seatbelt use when I was growing up, few used a seatbelt, education answered the problem. We need to educate and build. Robert Benedict, Writer/PV BD Manager at Jinko Solar
Comment
9 of 64
September 9, 2011
I agree that we need to increase our solar/wind/geothermal and other renewable resources; but not for transportation. We have plenty of need for electricity without adding unnecessarily to the burden of the grid. As previous commenters have noted, ethanol is a good fuel. For more, see Advanced Biofuels USA Paper on Truly Optimized flex Fuel Vehidles http://advancedbiofuelsusa.info/advanced-biofuels-usa-publishes-paper-and-slide-presentation-on-truly-optimized-flex-fuel-vehicles-benefits-and-how-to-achieve-them

And here's a partial plan of action: Pathway to Build a Sustainable "Total Biomass" Advanced Ethanol Industry http://advancedbiofuelsusa.info/advanced-biofuels-usa-releases-pathway-to-build-a-sustainable-total-biomass-advanced-ethanol-industry

The drop-in or hydrocarbon producers plan is to get investment for the military market, as described at the end of this article; which should spur investment of these advanced biofuels so that eventually, we replace "the whole gallon" with renewables from waste, agriculture residues, energy crops, etc.

Importing batteries or rare earth metals for electric vehicles and finding safe disposal of them makes as much sense as importing fossil fuels to burn. Especially when we have renewable alternatives.
Comment
10 of 64
September 9, 2011
Joane you are reading all the wrong information
Scientific American Aug 2011 Biofuels False promise
To run all the vehicles in the US on ethanol would take five times more farm land than the US has. Breaking down cellulose to make ethanol is not a viable method of prodiction. No one has managed to make it work after investments of hundreds of millions in research. Running every autmobile in the US on ethanol is more than a fantasy it's delusional no matter how much waste, agriculture residues or energy crops you generate.

"Importing batteries or rare earth metals for electric vehicles and finding safe disposal of them makes as much sense as importing fossil fuels to burn. Especially when we have renewable alternatives"

All bateries can be recycled and it makes more sense than burning fossil fuels because it produces far less CO2. An EV run on a solar charged battery from my PV, thermal, water capturing roof is what I'm looking forward to.
Now that's independence.




Biofuel from algie at $424 a gallon is a little pricy.
Comment
11 of 64
September 9, 2011
Anon(s), Robert & Joanne:

I suspect we're all reading REW because we believe in the benefits of alternative energy.

I don't read any of the comments as being positive/negative per se; I see different interpretations of the of the author's work. I do believe, however, that the military has been used to escort petrol in the past. They certainly have in times of war. Again, it's a commodity that's critical to our national defense (all the more reason to ween ourselves of it). Actually, I believe that argument is one that appeals to both ends of the political/policy spectrum as well as most of the rest of us that are probably somewhere in between.

Robert, I couldn't agree more with extending the 1603 and any/all other incentives. I've been involved in solar for +/- 5 years, but have been pursuing biomass for +/- 7 years and coal waste processing +/- 10 years. Prior to that was water smart-metering. All of that has been as an adjunct to multifamily housing (apartment/condo) development. At present we have two solar module/system shipments en route to Italy. Ironic since I've been living/developing in AZ/NV for the past 22 years, but post Fukushima the Italian's re-embraced solar, their FiT and you know the rest.

Joanne, I learned a bit about the transportation/logistics side when we began looking at bulk transport of reclaimed coal waste. Our business plan included limitations on the use of non-waterway transport because of barge transport creates the smallest carbon footprint. As I understand it, transportation produces +/- 35-40% of air contaminants with a fairly equal dose coming from power generation, manufacturing etc. Personally, I would require all "public" fleet replacements to be AFV's (e.g. cabs, buses, city/county/state/federal vehicles).

Anon(s), I agree with a more immediate program for placement of diesel vehicles. I've read of several auto manufacturers (Mercedes being one) achieving amazing MPG's with models due out as early 2012.
Comment
12 of 64
September 9, 2011
Gary, I'm not saying that all vehicles should run on ethanol. or that ethanol will be the only component of the fuel mixtures that will replace petroleum gasoline and petroleum diesel. Nor am I saying that all biofuels come from new land use. Agricultural residues (sugar beet pulp that now goes to landfills; used cooking oil, tallow and other food processing waste) and other waste that goes to landfills can be part of the solution. AND, if you want some more positive reading, try the latest revision of the "Billion Ton Study" http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/pdfs/billion_ton_update.pdf which shows "the results of this updated
assessment are consistent with the 2005 BTS in terms
of overall magnitude. In fact, the scenario assumptions
required to show a "billion-ton" resource (i.e.,
sufficient feedstock to potentially displace 30% or
more of the country's present petroleum consumption)
are much more plausible." And this study doesn't include algae or resources in Alaska or Hawaii--or waste-to-fuels. Combined with increased efficiencies, such as the proposed CAFE standard to 54.5mpg fleetwide, I think we can make great progress toward replacing "the whole gallon." And compare the list of contributors to the research to the Billion Ton Study with that of the old Scientific American article; perhaps ask Sci Am to take another look in light of new research.
Comment
13 of 64
September 9, 2011
One more thought on the cellulose conversion. Overcoming biomass recalcitrance has proven to be more difficult than previously thought. However, I know that not all ground-breaking research in this area is published yet. It's much too soon to give up on this promising avenue of releasing the sun's power stored in plants. Comparatively little funds are being put into understanding how plant cell walls are put together or taken apart. And, it is unfair to compare the price of products from experiments with the price of products from an industry that is 150 years old, vastly depreciated, and living off of extraordinary levels of subsidies.

I'd like to see buses, cabs, etc., have regenerative braking. Seems like a technology made for them.
Comment
14 of 64
September 9, 2011
The Admiral was responsible for saving the lives of great,intelligent,well trained Naval Personnel.
To waste these men on a poorly conceived energy policy bothers everyone connected with the military.
The Congress refuses to face the economic choices and release our dependency on commodity prices dictated by Gulf States,and their hedge funds.
Comment
15 of 64
September 10, 2011
Transportation fuels analysis is how I make a living. We have a multi-TB database of papers and research from 30+ nations.

The US once fed the world with over 65% grain exports. Today we have 29M acres of corn dedicated to the production of ethanol. More than any other factor, reductions of grain exports is the cause of the collapse of a dozen nations- these people are starving.

Ethanol has no large scale future. It cannot compete with 2nd generation feedstock for biodiesel in any unit of measure. My firm has orchards in 5 states and 3 other nations. 1/3 of the 2009 world petroleum volume will be produced by these orchards by 2020 as thousands of companies are planting millions of acres. 850 gallons/acre/yr far out-shines any other solution and comes in at about $40/barrel equivalent.

Diesel is our only sustainable, scalable, economically viable and environmentally friendly solution to petroleum. Everything else is noise.

There is a great deal of info on our website. http://etcgreen.com
Comment
16 of 64
September 10, 2011
@Bill

Not sure where you are getting your efficiency specs on gasoline vs. Diesel, but they are not correct. Diesel engines typically operate at 45% while gasoline vehicle are below 35%. Add to this the fact that diesel contains 25% higher energy density than gasoline and 35% higher than ethanol and there is no responsible argument to continue to manufacture any gasoline engines.

Resource Protectionism is alive and well. Within 5-7 years the rest of the world will deny the sale of petroleum to nations that are wasting this resource. The US will be at the top of the list. You are likely driving your last gasoline powered car.
Comment
17 of 64
September 10, 2011
@Joanne

"Importing batteries or rare earth metals for electric vehicles and finding safe disposal of them makes as much sense as importing fossil fuels to burn. Especially when we have renewable alternatives."

So how do you hold this perspective and are willing to argue it while 90% of U.S. environmentalists do not? You are correct of course. My Staff and I spent the past 4 years and several $M researching this issue. By the way, my firm now owns 24 rare earth mines - our minerals will not be sold for use in EV's or Hybrids - only renewable energy gear - wind turbines, solar panels, ...

etcgreen.com Popular: EV's and Hybrids are not our Future

The shorter version is basically a list of why EV's and plug-in hybrids do not have a large scale future: EV Tech - Postmortem
Comment
18 of 64
September 11, 2011
Robert Benedict has asked what a good policy should be to reduce reliance on imported petroleum and improve national security. We could get petroleum from Canada's tar sands and oil shale. This would satisfy many as it reduces almost all international geopolitics. But national security also depends on our economy. Getting away from exporting $$ to the middle east is a boon to our economy, but just transferring those payments to Canada or Mexico makes little difference. In addition these new petroleum sources will be expensive to extract and our energy prices will continue to go up with adverse economic consequences.

Switching to alternatives is a possibility, but the electric vehicles' day has not yet come. Electric vehicles will some day make an impact, but right now we don't need to add demand to a failing grid. This approach will require a lot of money and huge subsidies (1603 tax grants) which will not be in good political or practical favor now.

Biofuels is the best immediate alternative, but needs to be coupled with increased efficiency. Etcgreen and I agree that increased efficiency is a high priority. He has revealed his bias in that he has invested in the bio-diesel path for biofuels. Regardless of his belief, work by The EPA (Mathew Busstar), Scania and the highly respected automotive testing and development firm, Riccardo have shown ethanol can provide efficiencies equal to or greater than diesel.

Oil companies are going to be with us for some time and they have a lot of money, so a policy that includes them will be essential. More vehicles using diesel (petro or bio) is fine, but ultimately this will not reduce GHG's as much as using ethanol. Government support for a crash program of installing ethanol blending pumps and incentivising increased production of diesel and optimized flex-fuel vehicles would have the greatest effect for the dollar. Increased government loan guarantees for commercial advanced biofuels plants is essential.
Comment
19 of 64
September 11, 2011
Diesels run just fine on ethanol with the addition of an ignition enhancer. The Swedish heavy diesel manufacturer Scania has been running a fleet of over 1,000 diesel buses in Sweden and UK for years. They run on ED95(95% ethanol).

Otto cycle engines(spark ignition) can be made just as thermally efficient as diesel engines. The key factor to thermal efficiency and power output is compression ratio, not ignition mode. The octane rating of regular gasoline is 85-87, giving an effective compresseion rating of about 10:1, the comparative octane rating of ethanol is 115, giving and effective compression ratio limit of about 24:1. In flex fuel vehicles, compression ratio must be kept low to accommodate the use of gasoline. If ethanol is widely available enough so that gasoline is not needed---the thermal efficiency of the Otto cycle engine can be more than doubled compared to the same engine running on gasoline.

We've been doing this for over 50 years. The Indy League Racing Circuit cars all run on 100% ethanol. Ethanol can drive Indy racers at up to 260 mph----it can drive an SUV at 60 mph, no matter how big or heavy it is.

Electric vehicles were produced in fairly large numbers in the early 20th Century, that were competitive with gasoline based automobiles performance of the times. They were produced in many different models from sporty two seat roadsters to heavy duty commercial delivery trucks. They used no rare earth elements, and either lead/acid storage batteries or iron/nickel batteries. Some models had extended load ratings and 100 mile range--and at least one Detroit Electric in an actual mileage test ran 211 miles on a single charge.

Maybe it would be a good idea to go back and see what your great grandfathers did.
Comment
20 of 64
September 11, 2011
It seems we agree on many elements of a solid energy policy for the US.
I would recommend people visit Denmark, or some of the Pacific Islands where they have had a permanent shortage of fossil fuels.For they provide many sound designs for homes and commercial buildings.
The Russians,Finns, Swedes,and Norwegians also have proven designs which conserve precious fuel.
The size,mobility and wealth of the US make it attractive to automobiles and definitely trucks.
In Europe,more dependency was placed on avoiding automobiles,the most famous example being Switzerland,and it should be copied whenever possible.
The significant research into saving gasoline ignores the problems now found in many Asian cities. You can have cheap movement,but the number of people is far too great to allow traffic loads. China has over 200 cities with a population over 1 million.Think about this reality before you begin thinking about creating cheaper and smaller vehicles.
Somehow lessons should be learned in countries with very few natural resources,and very expensive grids.
The early electric cars folded like the horse and buggy,and the auto marketplace began its evolution toward the interstates,and suburbs.These ideals may appeal to many citizens who have the same strange factors found in the US.
Any other nation including the Philippines or Australia are not going to be able to use them.Housing and transportation adapts to geography and fuel supplies.
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Comment
21 of 64
Anonymous
September 11, 2011
A slight clarification @ Fred-Linn. Over all you are exactly correct, but technically speaking thermal efficiency is not linked to compression but rather to absolute pressure in the combustion chamber. This pressure can be obtained entirely from the compression ration but it can also be augmented with a turbo-charger. An engine with a 10:1 ratio with a 2x (atmospheric pressure) turbo-charger is the same as a 20:1 compression ratio. A flex-fuel vehicle can be optimized for a high blend ethanol using a variable rate turbo-charger and can still run on regular gasoline. At todays prices, operating an ethanol optimized flex-fuel vehicle is less costly than using gasoline, obtaining basically the same MPG or better. While the turbo-charger adds to the cost of the engine, it is much less than a diesel. The eco-tec engines now being introduced by GM can have that ability. The new Chevy Cruze compact has a tiny 1.4 liter engine with turbo-charging. Just tighten up the engine specs, change a couple of fuel line items, make the turbocharger variable and reprogram the engine control module and presto, you have an optimized flex-fuel vehicle. We just need to get the fueling stations out there! Saab has already produced such a vehicle for sale only in Sweden. This would represent a large step forward in conservation and energy independance. Bill Brandon
Comment
22 of 64
September 12, 2011
Yes Bill, you are right---I just didn't want to get into that too much because of time and space constraint.

You are right, the use of a turbocharger or supercharger with variable dump valve will give you adjustable compression ratio.

But the key to being able to make use of your adjustable compression is still having a fuel with enough comparative octane rating to be able to use the additional compression without preignition.

Chicken or egg. Which is more important? Being able to use gasoline, or having ethanol widely available enough that bothering with gasoline is not necessary?

-------" This would represent a large step forward in conservation and energy independance. Bill Brandon"-------

This I definitely agree with.
Comment
23 of 64
September 12, 2011
I am interested in understanding the basis of the love of ethanol. Ethanol is a distilled, highly volatile fuel with an extreme evaporation factor that becomes unstable in high compression and high temperature chambers - such as engines.

The ethanol distillation process requires an extreme level of energy resulting in only a marginal net energy gain. Ethanol is not transported via pipelines due to the highly corrosive nature of the fuel.

A 10K gallon ethanol tanker wreck is a likely major explosion, HAZMAT clean-up which will release high levels of vapors into the atmosphere with total kill-off of surrounding organic life. Backhoe hauls off the dirt for sterilization.

A 10K gallon gasoline tanker wreck is a likely major explosion, HAZMAT clean-up releasing levels of vapors into the atmosphere with total kill-off of surrounding organic life. Backhoe hauls off the dirt for sterilization.

A 10K gallon petroleum diesel tanker wreck is a HAZMAT clean-up with total kill-off of surrounding organic life. Backhoe hauls off the dirt for sterilization.

A 10K gallon B100 biodiesel tanker wreck is a non-HAZMAT fluid spill - hose it off with water - no vapors and no harm to organic life. Biodiesel is 1/10th as toxic as table salt.

Using volatile fuels in internal combustion engines sorely limits your design flexibility in that the fuel has a limited range of temp and compression in which it can be "processed" before vaporizing or igniting. Ethanol fuel is completely wrong headed.

When the U.S. Government drops its incentives for ethanol, nearly 30M acres of prime U.S. farmland will return to food production within 2-3 years. Ethanol is not economically viable either.

I come from a long line of farmers. I have a dozen cousins throughout the Midwest still farming. None of them operate ethanol powered farm equipment, trucks or own FlexFuel vehicles. Why? Because there are no stupid farmers anymore.

etcgreen.com
Comment
24 of 64
September 12, 2011
-------" Ethanol is a distilled, highly volatile fuel with an extreme evaporation factor that becomes unstable in high compression and high temperature chambers - such as engines. "------

You are describing gasoline, not ethanol. Gasoline has an octane rating of 85-87. Ethanol has a comparative octane rating of 115. Ethanol is more stable and resists the tendency to preignite under compression. This makes it possible to get much higher compression within the cylinder(more fuel and air per power stroke). The thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine increases when compression can be increased. You get more power, and you get more work out at the wheels compared to the amount of energy you put into the tank. This is what Bill and I were discussing.

The fastest, most advanced race cars in the world, The Indy League Racing Circuit use 100% ethanol fuel for this reason. Thermal efficiency wins races.

-------" Ethanol is not transported via pipelines due to the highly corrosive nature of the fuel."---------

Ethanol is an alcohol, an oxygenate. Ethanol(or any alcohol)is an excellent solvent. Gasoline is a very poor solvent. If you've ever worked on a carburetor or fuel system on a vehicle that has been running on pure gasoline you'd know this. An oxygenate of some sort MUST be added to gasoline, otherwise, sludges and varnishes would quickly shut down fuel system function. The reason that some parts can deteriorate with ethanol is because it is a good solvent---and the parts have been made from cheap, poor grade materials to cut costs(increase profit). The fault is not ethanol, the fault is poor grade materials.
Ethanol is not shipped by pipeline, not because it can't be---but because gasoline leaves all kinds of dirty deposits behind. Pump ethanol through, and it will dissolve and carry away those deposits--contaminating the ethanol.
Comment
25 of 64
September 12, 2011
-----" A 10K gallon ethanol tanker wreck is a likely major explosion, HAZMAT clean-up which will release high levels of vapors into the atmosphere with total kill-off of surrounding organic life. Backhoe hauls off the dirt for sterilization"----

Ethanol is hydroscopic, it mixes with water. Gasoline does not. Ethanol will not burn if the concentration is less than 57% alcohol. An ethanol fire can be extinguished with a regular fire hose. Gasoline floats on water. Burning gasoline when hit with a high pressure fire hose stream will only spread the fire.

Ethanol is extremely low toxicity. It is not absorbed by inhalation or skin contact. You can drink it in moderate amounts daily your whole lifetime with no ill effects---hundreds of millions of people do everyday. There would be no need to remove any soil---and groundwater contamination would not be a problem since the toxicity is low and it would quickly be diluted and carried away. Even 10K gallons spilled in a small river or stream would be undetectable a couple of hundred yards downstream.

Gasoline is highly toxic. The fumes are carcinogenic, and can cause a wide range of other toxic reactions. Gasoline can be absorbed by inhalation, contact, and ingestion and is often fatal, with both acute and chronic toxicity.

Crude oil is a literal witches brew of toxic chemicals.
Comment
26 of 64
September 12, 2011
----" None of them operate ethanol powered farm equipment, trucks or own FlexFuel vehicles. Why? Because there are no stupid farmers anymore. "---------

So, they are paying upwards of $4/gal for a fuel that has to be imported causing a trade deficit of over $600 billion per year. Much of which comes from despotic dictators who spawn terrorists who try to kill us. Like 9/11.

All of which requires 2 wars on 5 fronts that is bankrupting the US. 3/4 of the national debt has gone to finance the last 10 years of warfare. The last three wars the US has become involved in have oil as a root cause. It costs not only money to use oil, it costs lives as well.

-------" Ethanol fuel is completely wrong headed."-------

Then you should have told Henry Ford that. He was a life long proponent of ethanol as a fuel. He was also a life long proponent of farming. Henry Ford knew a few things about designing and building engines and vehicles. He also knew about farming. The Model T Ford when introduced in 1908 could be ordered with an adjustable Holly carburetor that could run on either gasoline or ethanol. He wanted farmers to be able to make their own fuel locally. We still need to be doing that---even more now than 1908.
Comment
27 of 64
September 12, 2011
Hello Fred,

Thank you for the perspective.

In comparison to gasoline, ethanol will handle higher compression, but that higher compression level is still far below the desired thresholds we should be targeting for fuel efficient vehicles.

Corn ethanol gets at best 350 gallons/acre/year while 2nd generation feedstock for biodiesel is proven between 500-14,000 gallons/acre/year. Our orchards are at 850 gallons/acre/year today and biodiesel requires no distillation so offers a high net energy return.

We should resign ethanol to serve only as a solvent.

The fastest, most advanced race cars in the world are biodiesel powered in the Le Mans circuit (type LeMans in the etcgreen.com Search box for some history). Indy cars are toys in comparison - Le Mans is 6x longer than the Indy 500 with higher top speeds and performance specs that no Indy car could muster.

When I have a few extra $B in hand, I will buy the Indy 500 race and convert it to biodiesel. Should only take me 2 more years.

Regards
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28 of 64
September 12, 2011
Fred,

I agree with your position on the despicable U.S. Foreign Policy and the deplorable, yet continued importance petroleum holds in our culture. This is the reason I have worked in this industry for the past 10 years - researching solutions.

However, rather than ethanol, the "U.S. Migration" is the solution. It is the only scalable, economically viable, sustainable and environmentally friendly solution we have. Ethanol will not play a major role in our transportation future and is simply slowing our progress.

etcgreen.com Article: U.S. Migration
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29 of 64
September 12, 2011
Great discussion of importance of composition of biofuels to engine design to optimize efficiencies. THANK YOU!

More work will be done in this area as IndyCars move next year to using E85 and working to optimize engines closer to those that will be used "on the street," as discussed by Dario Franchitti at the Mid-Ohio races this summer: Dario Franchitti Looks Forward to Using "Street Fuel" and Developing Engines with IndyCar http://advancedbiofuelsusa.info/dario-franchitti-looks-forward-to-using-%e2%80%9cstreet-fuel%e2%80%9d-and-developing-engines-with-indycar

And, as today, there will be need for many kinds of fuels, depending on the use. There will be situations that require biodiesel and renewable diesel; and those that are optimized by combinations of ethanol and other bio-molecules to make better fuels than what we have now.

Current gasoline is compared to sausages; it is made from what remains in the refinery after the more valuable stuff is sold. I love sausage, but regular grocery store brands aren't made from the stuff that will sell for $20/lb as fine steak.

I imagine that if we put our minds to it, we can make reasonably priced high octane biofuels for engines that meet the proposed CAFE standards for 54.5 mpg and that follow principles of "green chemistry" in being less toxic and more sustainable; that are composed of "recipes" of molecules designed to optimize the entire value chain from seed to wheel, including ethanol and other hydrocarbon molecules.

The markets for efficiently produced and processed biomass are huge and will include fuels for diesel engines as well as others. There's no need to waste energy turning this into an "us" and "them" when there is a need for all that can be produced.
Comment
30 of 64
September 12, 2011
@etcgreen----stick with biodiesel, that is FINE with me. Diesels are already high compression, high thermal efficiency engines. When running on biodiesel, they are low emmission. And diesels require no engine modifications at all to run on biodiesel. The very first diesel engine Rudolf Diesel built in 1893 ran on peanut oil.

Diesels have been run in Indy before.

And diesels can run on ethanol too with the addition of an ignition enhancing additive. Scania, the Swedish heavy diesel manufacturer, has been running a fleet of over 1,000 buses on ED95(ethanol diesel, 95% ethanol)for years in Sweden and UK.

We can make ethanol and biodiesel from any type of plant material at all. The Germans made them from coal and wood in WW2----using the Fischer-Tropsch process. Sasol in South Africa today is making jet fuel from coal using the same process.
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31 of 64
September 12, 2011
@ Joanne----I'm a little confused by the article. Indy cars already run on 100% ethanol. Indy cars all use the same engine, a V8 displacing 3L made by Honda. The Honda V8 is the same size or smaller than most V6s currently on the road today---however Indy cars typically develop 1200-1600 bhp. More horsepower than 3-4 OTR 18 wheel diesel rigs. They use 100% ethanol for safety reasons, and I don't think they are likely to change that rule.

Formula 1 has recently approved E85 for use in races. F1 is the European version of open wheel race design.{loosely speaking, F1 has a different governance commission and rules} I wonder if the reporter is confusing F1 with Indy, or if there is some cross over or what? I'll be looking for more information about that.

-------" And, as today, there will be need for many kinds of fuels, depending on the use."--------

Exactly. One size does not fit all.

There is no need for a CAFE standard for biofuels. We can make all we need, we don't have to import them, and we can keep making as long as we need them because they are renewable.

The most basic reason for CAFE regulations is because petroleum is not renewable. It we look at this aspect, and say that CAFE is only necessary because petroleum is not renewable---therefore, the important thing is how much petroleum we use----we get a whole different picture. Take a flex fuel vehicle that can run on E85. E85 is 15% petroleum. If we put 10 gallons of E85 in the tank and run 200 miles(typical mileage with currently used vehicles), you've only used 1.5 gallons of petroleum to go 200 miles. 133.3 mpg per gallon of petroleum used. FAR better than the measly 54.5 mpg you'd be trying to get using all sorts of changes to keep using gasoline. EXPENSIVE changes.
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September 12, 2011
Here's an interview with IndyCar's Randy Bernard about them moving to E85 for the 2012 season: http://domesticfuel.com/2011/07/01/irl-moving-to-e85-in-2012/ They will have a completely new car, new engines, etc.

And, unfortunately, the way EPA does their CAFE compliance calculations does not take into consideration or give any "credit" to the biofuels portion. That's a big problem, I think, for the reasons you listed. Now, as I understand it, mpg and pollution emissions compliance are done using E0 Indolene (a certification fuel that is close to gasoline, but would not be exactly what you buy at the local fuel station as those fluctuate too much). And, as I understand it, they do not do tests with 15% Indolene and 85% ethanol, etc. Now only btu's are taken into consideration when doing calculations about the mileage difference (penalty) from using ethanol; so the manufacturers have a disincentive to maximize the use of biofuels or ethanol (corn or cellulosic) because all the cool benefits that were explained in these comments are not taken into consideration when the vehicles have to be tested with the certification fuel.

If someone has a better understanding of this and can explain how the beneficial use of biofuels is factored into CAFE and emissions "scores" please share the information; or if you know that the tests of engines that are designed to optimize the beneficial properties of ethanol do not use E0 Indolene; or point us to online explanations elsewhere. Thanks.
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September 12, 2011
Good Article. Another step in the right direction; but 160,000 roof tops should be just a start. WE should be putting solar collectors on EVERY city, county, state and federal building within reason. Not just the dept. of defense buildings. So what if it takes a few years to do it ! How else do you eat the 800 pound gorilla? ..... One bite at a time.The Germans have done it.Can't we? So you say that it will take a few years to pay for themselves.... we've lasted 235 years. I think it would be a small price for energy independence.
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Anonymous
September 12, 2011
@ Fred - I disagree that "There is no need for a CAFE standard for biofuels". Conservation and efficiency are important, even with bio-fuels. Even if there was the ability to make an unlimited amount of bio-fuels, we can't afford to use so much of our GNP for energy. It is an economic issue.
@ Joanne - While making gasoline might at one time been compared to making sausage, today we use heavier crude oils and crack long carbon molecules to make gasoline. Diesel is a BTU bargain because the demand for gasoline is so high. We essentially make gasoline from diesel, or sausage from steaks so to speak. Bill Brandon
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Anonymous
September 12, 2011
@etcgreen - You seem confused about ethanol's volatility. Ethanol has a Reid vapor pressure of 3 while gasoline has a Reid vapor pressure of 8 to 9 (higher being more volatile). Because gasoline is hydrophobic, blending 10% ethanol with 90% gasoline raises the Reid vapor pressure by 1 psi. It then gradually begins to decline. This creates a problem for refiners since EPA Reid vapor pressure standards must be met. Ethanol is blended with a 'blending grade' gasoline that has had C4, C5 and maybe C6 molecules removed. There is little use for these molecules. In the 19 teens Charles Kettering discovered that adding butanol to the ethanol/gasoline blend stabilized the blend. We will soon see bio-isobutanol being added to gasoline. Gevo has just signed the first contract to provide fuel grade butanol. BP's Butamax program is aimed at this tri-blend approach. Adding butanol to gasoline could make a lot of sense. A low octane (83-85) gasoline/butanol blend could be distributed and sold for small engine and boat use but would be insufficient for auto use. This could be blended at the retail station with denatured ethanol at any blend or premium gasoline if appropriate. (Some regions will require reformulated gasoline using ethanol.) Even if demand for higher ethanol blends was initially limited, the fueling station could have an appropriate turnover of ethanol. Only three tanks would give complete freedom of fuel choice.

In addition, if you are going to give ethanol production/acre, you need to back out co-products (animal feed). A good corn field will yield your 850 gal/acre. Add to that additional product from corn stover and algae grown from waste CO2 (both presently being done at corn ethanol plants). I can see possible technologies that would yield 1500 gal/acre. But corn ethanol shouldn't be our basis for comparison as advanced ethanol yields can be higher yet. Bill Brandon
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September 12, 2011
Good discussion, but there's a missing ingredient. NH3 is a better alternative than ethanol or biodiesel. It can be synthesized from water and air using renewable energy...and it's carbon free!

Again looking at history, the Belgians ran diesels on them in WW1 when traditional fuels were scarce. I have witnessed a SI engine run on pure NH3 and air.

Naysayers will argue about its energy density, which is half that of gasoline, but that is still ten times better than the best chemical battery. They may also talk of its toxicity, but it is a naturally occurring chemical in nature; it is produced by nearly all living things (including people). It does pose an inhalation hazard in high concentrations due to its high pH levels when combined with water, but it easily dilutes.

This is a fuel worthy of entry into mainstream discussion.
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September 12, 2011
@Bill

Are you involved in the ethanol industry as a lobbyist maybe? You are obviously well informed, but are not echoing the basic issues that everyone else has embraced.

The net energy gain of ethanol is poor. Halt Federal subsidies and if it survives, great, though we all know it will crash within 2-3 years.

Why would anyone be willing to drive a FlexFuel vehicle around on such low energy density fuel?

Ethanol vs. gasoline comparisons for any characteristic have no meaning - neither will be available at large scale for transportation fuels within the next 10-15 years.

etcgreen.com Article: U.S. Migration
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September 12, 2011
@Joanne Good info re: the Indy fuels. I welcome Fred's contributions, but prefer the facts. Are you an engineer?

The U.S. EPA Office of Transportation and Air Quality uses a testing method labeled, "worst case mode" to determine the true emissions of any vehicle. To explain the basic premise by example: Consider a diesel powered vehicle that will run on B100 with emissions of "X". As with all vehicles operating on U.S. roads, it must be tested for its EPA emission certification. If this vehicle has the potential of running on petro diesel, then the EPA will only test and rate the emissions of that vehicle as if the vehicle would only be operated on petro diesel which would present far less desirable emissions ratings (B100 burns 87% cleaner than petro diesel before additives - 97% cleaner with additives). These undesirable petroleum sourced fuel emissions test results dictate the EPA requires an emissions control system for this diesel vehicle - based on the petroleum diesel only emission tests. Actually no B100 fuel emissions testing is ever performed. This "worst case mode" model has cost the U.S. public over $2T in the purchase of higher volumes of fuel over the past 10 years in that the rest of the world's industrialized nations migrated to diesel and adopted biodiesel fuel mandates over a decade ago and this "worse case mode" regulation has kept the U.S. primarily on gasoline.

To apply this "worst case mode" model to an EV and plug-in hybrid as convention would require, the emissions of an EV are based on the energy generation source. Since EV's are mobile, their emissions per this EPA methodology must only be rated as if the electricity generated for that EV (not limited to the electricity delivered) is sourced from the worst emitting coal plant in the U.S.. While many will balk at this argument, ETC Green engineers and attorneys are having these conversations with Administrators of EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality in Ann Arbor.
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September 13, 2011
Wow, I went to work and you guys got way ahead of me.

Joanne---why not just make multi-fuel vehicles exempt?

CAFE is just a way of continuing use of petroleum anyway. I think what we should do is place and import duty on crude petroleum and finished petroleum products to pay for the national debt---3/4 of which went to pay for our huge military presence and 3 wars in the Middle East. If we don't use petroleum, we would have no need to be in the Middle East at all.

Bill-----" . Even if there was the ability to make an unlimited amount of bio-fuels, we can't afford to use so much of our GNP for energy. It is an economic issue."--------

Since we make them here, from raw materials available here, by workers who live here----biofuels are the GDP.(along with all the coproducts we produce when we make biofuels)

Jaime---ammonia can be used as a fuel, but I don't think I want to. Go stand inside a parking garage and take a breath on a busy day. I don't think you want all those vehicles running on ammonia. For starters, your lungs would probably go into instant spasm and you wouldn't be able to breathe. I've treated a lot of people for ammonia inhalation over the years---believe me, it is NOT something you want to happen to you. Ammonia can also cause very serious chemical burns. It is highly caustic.

-------" Why would anyone be willing to drive a FlexFuel vehicle around on such low energy density fuel?"-------

Oh, I don't know, maybe it is because I am a combat veteran who works taking care of veterans wounded in combat. Maybe I get mad as hell that my brothers(and sisters) in arms are being killed and maimed being used as imperial mercenaries for Big Oil colonial adventures to import cheap oil to sell at inflated prices to maintain their bottom line black monopoly.

As far as I am concerned, use of petroleum = killing US service personnel to make a profit.
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September 13, 2011
Besides biodiesel and ethanol,there is another option hardly even mentioned. Methane. Natural gas.

Methane, CH4, is bio-inert(non toxic)--the cleanest burning fuel available, abundant, cheap already has considerable infrastructure in place.

Methane is also both a fossil fuel AND a biofuel. We can make it cheaply and easily. Germany is going into biomethane production in a big way, they are on track to be producing 20% of their natural gas needs by 2015---less than 10 years since they started their biomethane production program.

The Fiat Siena Tetrafuel can run on gasoline, gasoline and ethanol mixtures, pure hydrous ethanol(straight from the still, unblended) and/or compressed natural gas(methane). It is in manufacture, on sale, and in use by consumers on the road in Brazil and Argentina right now----and has been for the last 4 years. The MSRP for the Siena Tetrafuel is $5,000 less than the Toyota Prius.

Mandate that all new vehicles sold in the US must have this technology and let consumers choose what they want to fuel their vehicles with.
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September 13, 2011
Fred,
Good arguments for getting rid of foreign oil. In almost every way imaginable it is a bad thing. It amazes me how many people are against pursuing other options.

As for your argument against NH3, I would agree with that too if I hadn't seen data that proves the ability to run the fuel nearly emissions-free. The Iowa energy center has done full emissions testing on a john-deere diesel running a mixture of diesel and NH3. Look it up!

At full power and 60% NH3, NOx and NH3 emissions were both almost nonexistant, well under CAFE.

And, you can smell it long before the concentrations are high enough to harm you. I attend a conference on the subject every year and am convinced of its suitability as a transportation fuel.

If we agree that we need off oil, why not look to something that has the scalability to be truly sustainable?
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September 13, 2011
I run an all-volunteer nonprofit educational organization which advocates for the adoption of advanced biofuels as an energy security, economic development, military flexibility, climate change/pollution control solution. Advanced Biofuels USA. I'm not an engineer.

My cautions about natural gas are that I think the priority for bio-hydrogen should be for renewable diesel and other processes that require hydrogen for making liquid fuels. And for electricity generation. And, we need not replace mountain top removal with environmentally damaging fracking. Again, I see no need for countries, including this one, to import fuel before they improve their agricultural and residue/waste management practices to produce "homegrown" energy as much as possible.
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Anonymous
September 13, 2011
@fred-linn - While methane can be an effective way to off set petroleum, by itself it releases significant GHG's in the form of unburned methane. Several years ago, CARB did a side by side test of a low sulfur diesel bus and a CNG bus. While the regulated emissions of both were essentially the same, the CNG bus was about 8 times worse in GHG emissions. The combustion characteristics of methane are not the best for an IC engine. This can be corrected by adding about 8% hydrogen by weight. Hydrogen can be reformed from methane, but this further adds to the cost of the distribution system. When looking at the distribution requirements and the vehicle requirements, CNG is a high initial capital cost option. As long as natural gas remains undervalued on a BTU basis, it somewhat offsets this cost. Increased demand for natural gas for electrical generation may bring its cost in line with other sources.

When comparing any potential fuels, we can not ignore associated capital costs. CNG is high, Electric vehicles are high, Diesel engines are more expensive that spark ignition engines, ethanol requires an additional retail tank, etc. One answer will not equally satisfy all uses. Bill Brandon
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September 13, 2011
Joanne,
Everything in your mission is spot on with the values of NH3 as a fuel except for the 'Bio' prefix. Come to the conference in Portland next week and decide for yourself if NH3 should be on your group's radar:

www.nh3fuelassociation.org
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September 13, 2011
@Fred,

Thank you for your work. My Father served as a pilot in the Air Force for 22 years and my brother graduated from West Point with a EE. He had just been accepted to MIT for his Ph.D. when he was KIA.

'use of petroleum = killing US service personnel to make a profit' is a solid assessment.

Our U.S. Migration plan eliminates all OPEC purchases within 5 years and all foreign petroleum purchases within about 15 years.
We believe it is the only scalable, sustainable, economically viable and environmentally friendly solution on the table today.

CNG requires high maintenance compressors, a multi-$Trillion distribution system, serious environmental impact for extraction and is not only the most volatile transportation fuel, but also has the most volatile price history of any energy source over the past 10 years. It has little future for achieving large scale production status. [2010 - $75 barrel equiv.; 2008 - $340 barrel equiv.; 2006 - $225 barrel equiv.; Projected 2012 - $160 barrel equiv.]

etcgreen.com U.S. Migration
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46 of 64
September 13, 2011
Bill---I just walked the dogs this morning. They were cleaning out a sewage lagoon in a large truck stop area right next to the field we hunt rabbits in.

There were large power shovels and about 10 trucks(the 40 ton big boys). The lagoon had been drained and the muck was being dug out from the bottom ---- the color was jet black, what is called 'gumbo' on farms in the south. The black color is a result of the extremely high organic content. This is the finest, most fertile topsoil you can possibly get. It is what is left over after large amounts of raw sewage released into the lagoon from several motels and businesses there release it. The outflow forms a small creek. The outflow is pure clean water. It supports all kinds of wildlife. The lagoon teems with riparian wildlife. There is fish, frogs, turtles, salamanders, crayfish, snakes, everything you can think of---and it is a huge nesting area for ducks, geese, red wings, kingfishers, and every other kind of water fowl---which in term supports a large community of owls, hawks, eagles, osprey, and other predator species.

The outflow water to the creek is so clean that the dogs swim in it everyday. The dogs have never suffered any ill effects from swimming in the creek.

This mini-nature preserve is a 15 acre area that has the most diverse and concentrated biologic population you can find in the entire area. And it is nature's sewage treatment plant for man's sewage.

It is also a methane factory. All that sewage and biologic waste is broken down by bacteria into 'gumbo' and clean water. It is a natural methane factory. It produces so much methane, you can see it bubbling up to the surface of the water. Those bubbles are 'swamp gas'---methane. It goes into the atmosphere. Methane has about 17 X the heat capture and retention capacity that CO2 does in the atmosphere>(cont)
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September 13, 2011
(cont) If we capture the methane released by treating sewage and dead biomass(as is happening in the lagoon)----and then use that methane to power our vehicles, we are converting high GHG effect methane into much lower GHG effect CO2. The CO2 goes back into the atmosphere, and is converted back into plant life by photosynthesis.

Using methane is the only I know of that we have, which has the capacity to actually cool the atmosphere by converting high GHG effect gas(methane) into lower GHG effect gas(CO2). Nothing else can do that, not wind, solar, geothermal, ammonia, etc. etc.

The use of methane also keeps squarely in the middle of the natural Carbon Energy Exchange Cycle. The meaning of this is completely apparent when you approach and walk into the lagoon area. Life is teeming everywhere you look---it is nature's response to man's accidental concentration of the conditions and ingredients that she(nature) uses to create life. It is an explosion of the life supporting bounty that causes a self feeding and replicating system that man with his feeble linear thinking industrial models can never hope to duplicate.

Show me ANY man made system that can even begin to compare to the absolute awe producing spectacle that nature produces from raw sewage. There isn't anything that can begin to compare.

That is why I think methane(and other natural biofuels such as ethanol and biodiesel) are the way we need to go.

What is good for ducks, salamanders and owls---is also good for humans.
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September 13, 2011
BTW---my favorite resident of the lagoon is Barney. Barney is a Great Blue Heron, about 2 1/2 feet tall, and vivid blue and black color. Barney is usually in his favorite hunting spot near the path we take, and when we approach he takes flight with a few long slow strokes of his massive wings. It almost appears to be in slow motion, as if he were a swimmer, swimming on the air. He gains a little altitude, then simply sets his wings and glides, guiding by turning his body and adjusting his weight---exactly the way a hang glider would steer on his rigid wings. Barney will make a couple of large lazy circles, then swoops past to look us over, then glides to the other side of the lagoon to continue his hunt for breakfast. It is amazing how Barney can change from this tall, lanky, gangling seemingly clumsy and silly looking creature wading and poking in the shallow water(named after Barney Fife) into this smooth, streamlined, majestic flying wonder, long skinny neck set back into smooth tight S curve in the blink of an eye.

Barney has been gone since the equipment and digging has moved in. But I'm sure Barney will be back when the shovels and trucks are gone and the lagoon refills again.
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September 13, 2011
Steve----" CNG requires high maintenance compressors, "-----

As compared to supertankers required to move crude petroleum and finished products half way around the world---and are subject to leaks, collisions, and accidents of all kinds?

I've never heard of a natural gas compressor that struck a reef and sank because the captain was drunk and passed out, like Exxon Valdez.

-------" a multi-$Trillion distribution system, "-------

Mostly already in place, we already have a national natural gas pipeline grid. Most service stations already have natural gas hook ups to the local utilities. It would not take much to install compressors and fueling stations. Local utilities and contractors should be able to complete most jobs in a couple of weeks at most. Construction equipment in Europe uses mobile CNG filling that is moved on site during construction, and then moved elsewhere when the job is completed. It would be possible to begin fueling with natural gas the next morning---and when the permanent construction is complete---continue business with no interruption 24/7.

-----" serious environmental impact for extraction"----

Strip mining is the most serious cause of environmental damage there is. Both coal and petroleum come from strip mines. Natural gas does not, and it never will. You can't strip mine a gas, it would just blow away before you could get a shovel under it.
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September 13, 2011
Danica Patrick can drive my car any day.
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51 of 64
September 15, 2011
I find it interesting that the article primarily describes an energy issue seeking political solutions. Most all of the comments simply refer to technology without mentioning the immense forces at play to keep us knee deep dependent on fossil fuels,using politics to maintain that status quo.

Until we as a nation stop electing politicians who obviously are part of the problem and not part of the solution we will get the lousy results we vote for.

Take a good look at the lineup of corporate whores/moron's and opportunists we had lined up in what was called a debate these past two weeks.

As a supporter of renewable energy and knowing full well that without the support of the government in allowing proper decisions to be made nothing positive will happen,do you really see any sign what so ever that this lineup of court jesters will get us where we need to go.

Obama is just a corporatist Republican posing as a Democrat but at the very least he makes an attempt to support renewable's if in the form of rhetoric only.

If you really support renewables then recognize conservatism or Republican or Tea Party for what it is.Essentially members of a mindless cult. A cult complete with an entire catechism of dogma and a list of sins and violations of the prime directive that get you sent to a political gullog. A cult complete with its own holy person; Saint Ronald Reagan.

Yes Democrats are mostly losers too but if you vote Republican and expect to see favorable results on the renewable energy scene then your as stupid as the people who make up the primary membership of this mindless cult.The low information voters addicted to Fox Channel,believers in fairy tales and myths thousands of years old,science deniers and those who still think NASCAR is actually a real race. All have membership cards in the CULT OF CONSERVATISM and daily burn incense to Saint Ronny.

And Saint Ronnies biggest miracle?
He had the solar panels on the White House ascend to Solar Heaven.
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September 15, 2011
@Gumby

The problem is not generically the SUV's or trucks. A significant percentage of these vehicles are work vehicles and their tow capacities and size is necessary to run our businesses which support our economy. People have to think more specifically - "fuel and engines".

Petroleum is a finite resource while biofuels are sustainable.

We operate full-sized, AWD SUV's for our work vehicles and we enjoy a typical 52MPPG (Miles Per Petroleum Gallon) with lower emissions than the Prius, Volt, Focus, ..., which from our perspective are gas guzzlers. People have to stop buying these vehicles so the manufacturers will stop making them.

For more information about how to really Go Green - etcgreen.com
Article: U.S. Migration
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53 of 64
September 16, 2011
@etcgreen
Bio fuels are no more a 'silver bullet' solution to our fossil fuel addiction than an electric vehicle is.

Visited your web site and you obviously have a bias against EV's

That's fine

A Pepsi executive would obviously have a bias against Coke

But a bias does not a true fact make.

Your well to wheels efficiency or your energy in for energy return,or even your total environmental signature is no more or less severe than most other technologies.

For us as a nation and a planet to succeed we need all sources of energy over a broad range of uses.

Your claim to be more 'green' than a Volt or Leaf is specious at best.

My EV takes me anywhere I wish within its range (so far in excess of %99 of my driving needs just like the vast majority of drivers) yet all of my energy comes from solar right here on my property. I pay nothing for it.

To use your energy I must first put up with noisy,stinky,oily diesel's (great for what they do and are appropriate for) then I must drive somewhere to buy it after someone spent a great deal of energy to deliver it.

Making blanket statements about how bad EV's are does nothing to advance your own business model. The criticism instead reflects more on how little time you have spent really analyzing the pros and cons of each energy source and diminishes the value of your other arguments.Not a good recipe for business success. Better to advance based on your products own benefits and not in attempts to bring down a competitor with invalid criticism.

I like bio fuels just fine and promote them but having driven an EV for years any criticism of the them falls on deaf ears. That also applies to the over 300 leaf owners in Portland Oregon who now have discovered the many benefits of EV's. I'm sure the other 350 now on order in the same city will feel the same. My last search for bio diesel here found very few real reliable sources. So which product do you think is winning the game so far?
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September 16, 2011
Larryofgalaxie and Gumby-------we can do everything that both of you want, and MUCH more.

If you brought someone from the middle ages, or even the 19th Century to today---when they had a look at everything that we do routinely without even giving it a second thought---they would be dumb struck and describe it as magic.

There is nothing magic about magic. It is possible to do anything we want to do. Easy in fact.

The "magic" is how it is done. To do a magic trick, first you describe the result---what you want to happen. You start with the result----and then you work back from there. You work backwards to describe the steps in reverse you need to achieve the desired result.

Then, once you have described the steps needs to achieve the result, you reverse the order. Follow the steps. And the result is magic.

The "magic" is the process of achieving the result without apparently or seemingly doing what was necessary to get there. Look at ANY magic trick. The result is not the trick----people would just say, so what?, that was easy, nothing special about that. The magic is the illusion---the seeming ability to perform an action or a result with no effort----or in spite of efforts to prevent it or seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

So, there is no magic, only perceptions. The magician OFTEN uses the audience's known assumptions(which are wrong) or biases(looking only from one narrow viewpoint--both mental and physical) to fool them.

Magic isn't what you do---it is how people see it.

We can do EVERYTHING that both of you want---and much more.

There is nothing in the hat.

Fred
flwetdog@hotmail.com
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September 16, 2011
I prefer to do the same things without the emissions. Anywhere.

We can do that. We can even generate our electricity in the basement, unvented. It is already being done now.
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September 16, 2011
all very interesting
BUT
these comments have run amuk, anyone remember the topic of the article?
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September 16, 2011
@ Gumby and larryofgalaxy

We are serious engineers - 5 of us have more than a decade of work experience with the DoD/DoE and several decades working for university research organizations.

As our articles state - we salute anyone who is willing to spend the $$ to own EV's. Emerging technologies need benefactors. If you live in CA, WA or OR, you and your EV are pretty Green.

That said, we have spent years researching biofuels and those who still have not embraced that biodiesel and synthetic diesel are our large scale replacement future fuels simply do not understand the variables and opportunities. An advanced diesel engine running B100 with quality additives will literally clean the air in most metro cities while running - with total life-cycle off-sets, B100 is CO2 neutral.

We will get there. A long list of the largest corporations in the world have massive investments in biodiesel sourced from 2nd generation feedstock.

etcgreen.com/biofuels
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September 16, 2011
etcgreen, That being said : I think the Holy Grail of green transpo. should be PHEV with biodiesel ICE as the ICE range extender.
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September 16, 2011
Steve-Poppitz has the a solution that would work now. PHEV & bioDiesel ICE.

I don't know why there hasn't been a hybrid minivan in the US market. (I had to settle for a hybrid SUV).
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September 20, 2011
There are a few problems with bio diesel that need to be worked out; one, though it "follows" the gel point of regular diesel down to about 18'f that's about as far as it will go. After that it gels and plugs off the fuel lines and filters. This problem needs fixing or the northern states from about the mid US have to resort to regular winter diesel 5 months of the year. The ultra clean diesel we now see at the pump host 2% biodiesel for lubrication, (it too "dry" for turbo-ed diesels to run on without. In all bio-diesels if mixed with regular diesel there are filtering problems. The petroleum diesel kills the bacteria in the bio fuel and plugs the filters; it gets worse in the winter or colder weather. One can't run 100% bio fuel below about 27'f unless the vehicle has an intank heater and doesn't ever shut of for any longer than a few hours or the fuel gels. The cost of un-pluging a fuel system is very expensive, more so if the injectors get plugged, they then need replacing. More people would use bio diesel if these problems were worked out simply because it has more power than regular diesel.
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September 20, 2011
Diesel engines can also run on ethanol with the addition of an ignition enhancer(lowers the ignition point). ED95(95% ethanol)

Scania has been running a fleet of over 1,000 buses for years in Sweden and UK----neither of which are exactly tropical countries.
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September 20, 2011
@mitch3

Actually, this is not correct and this mis-information is a top 10 challenge to the large scale U.S. Migration to biodiesel blends.

We have partnered with 2 leading fuel additives firms and our standard mix biodiesel will run at 0 degrees F with a stable shelf life of 9 months. We have special blends that go to -40 F with a stable shelf life of 18 months. Our partners have now - in production today - B50 biodiesel blends that go to -100 F for military aviation applications.

You are making reference to low tech biodiesel. If you have the contact information for this biodiesel producer, I will work with them and help them develop a far better product.

Also, biodiesel fuel does not have "more power" than petroleum diesel. While it is close to the same BTU/volume, it is a few % less - still far higher than gasoline and almost double that of ethanol.

For more information, please review.

etcgreen.com Article: U.S. Migration
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September 21, 2011
mitch13----diesels can run just fine on methane. Catepillar has been making natural gas powered diesels since 1954. They have 8 models that range from about 50 hp to 1750 hp.

There are no problems with gelling or vaporization no matter how cold it gets----methane is already a gas and does not change phase at anywhere near the coldest temperature ever recorded on earth.
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September 21, 2011
@etcgreen,
I admit I've been out of the fuel business for two years now and things may have changed concerning the gel point of biodiesel. Folks liked the smooth running bio diesel and the additional power it gave them but if they didn't get the stuff out of their system when cold weather hit they had a lot of problems. Have they solved the filtering issue yet? Because of these issues that plagued the industry a few years ago there are not many stations running bio diesel in my region; it got a bad rap. Everyone had to find a fuel filter larger than 10 microns or they ended up changing filters about every 2000 miles - not an economical situation, however diesel engines loved the high lubricating aspects and most diesel owners loved the lower price of B30 and B40 when the weather was warm. If these issues have been corrected there should be some national advertising done and get this fuel moving.
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Steve Leone

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About: Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California. more »

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