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Are the Chinese Using Predatory Pricing to Knock America Out of Solar Manufacturing?

By Stephen Lacey, Climate Progress
September 12, 2011   |   18 Comments

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18 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 18
September 12, 2011
Hi:

The US has money, its just we prefer to dump it into the hands of the oil and gas companies.
SO as the Ostrich loves to stick its head in the sand, we enjoy putting our heads down oil and now Marcellus Shale gas holes.... while our ass points in the direction of Alberta Canada....

.....Bill
Comment
2 of 18
September 13, 2011
Steve,

Chinese modules are a subsidy to the american public. If the Chinese want to subsidize the installation of PV systems here in the US- why complain about it?

Because we don't have factory jobs that can compete with Asia is not a negative. Who want to work in a factory screwing in a bolt anyway?

If we want to compete with the Chinese we need easy money (which we don't have. It doesn't make sense to start a trade war are stick a tariff on their goods. That simply sticks it to the consumer.

Take the gifts from the Chinese and say thank you.

It makes some sense to require ARRA compliant for 1603 or tax credit issues. That will help some (lean & mean) American manufacturing companies survive.

If we can't beat them at their game (cheap mechanized menial labor) then we need to retool and specialize in what we have a competitive advantage. The last thing we need to do is keep them from selling their inexpensive modules over here.


Randy
SimpleEnergyWorks
Comment
3 of 18
September 13, 2011
The US government can do the same but also prefers - besides generously funding oil, gas and coal - to bail out banks that are "too big to fail" and fund unending wars as well as military bases all over the world. A simple matter of choice or a worrying sign of deep political alienation?
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Comment
4 of 18
Anonymous
September 13, 2011
It's not that simple. The Chinese loans are incentives for local manufacturing of semiconductors - including solar cells - not for renewable energy. So it's a matter of do we want to artificially support the high technology industry with a 5 year plan, like China does, or not?
Comment
5 of 18
September 13, 2011
The US does have the money to support this industry. The reasons we don't vary from obedience to the fossil fuel industry to our addiction to the war machine. We are also cheap, stupid and greedy. None of these reasons are good.

Here is a militant solution to the problem. 1) Let the unemployment benefits to the long term unemployed run out.
2) Give each of those long term unemployed a gun and the address of their congressman and Senator.

This political process is so corrupt that you have to shoot at these corrupt officials before they get the money out of their ears. (About 12 years ago a disgruntled employee in Riverside county shot up his city council. After that incident, I heard an assembly member state, maybe "its time we started listening to our constituency".)
Comment
6 of 18
September 13, 2011
Hi:

LOL to #5... the real force needs to be aimed at the puppeteers not their messengers. They will be protected with the likes of Blackwater entities, so it will take more than a simple gun and some momentary emotion. Action will have to be much smarter, but still well within means. If you want to really remake our world, you have to start where the power resides, not where it is shown.
I was just listening to Noam Chomsky on Link TV, his new book on 9/11, '9-11: Was there an Alternative?' The problems that we are into today go way back to the 20's and 30's. To think that these are going to be solved with a couple pieces of legislation or a new face or two is really ridiculous.
The reality for humans as time goes forward is many more revolutions will occur, global population will have to fall and we as a species will have to be remade. We are not cooperative enough as a species allowing our competitive and aggressiveness to undermine our own existence. Those with greater intelligence and opportunity choose, by the numbers, to favor the master/slave paradigm which naturally fits into the leader/follower tendencies of our societies. etc.. etc..

Such is reality...

.....Bill
Comment
7 of 18
September 13, 2011
One of the major factors not mentioned in the OP is China's currency manipulation. Devaluation of the RMB gives Chinese products a 40% price advantage.

With China's large workforce, it's conceivable that ALL US manufacturing could be shifted to China. This means lower product prices in the US. But it also means higher unemployment, and higher budget deficits because of the income tax loss.
Comment
8 of 18
September 13, 2011
hawkster: Here, here! My plan is somewhat less violent but hopefully would have a similar effect. DO NOT VOTE FOR ANY PARTY at the next election. I want to see an almost 0% turnout. Naturally all congress members, their families, friends (if they have any) and their dogs will vote, but the general population should completely abstain. How else can we get our feelings understood? If that doesn't work, then it's on to 'Plan B' = see Mr. Hawkster.
Comment
9 of 18
September 13, 2011
I tend to go with the opposite solution. We need as close to 100% turnout on voting days as possible. They can vote "none of the above"; I am quite okay with that. But they need to get out and vote.

The reason "the people" have lost control is because they don't care enough to vote. If they cared enough, the politicians would pay attention because they would have to.

And you have to do it at least twice, because 1 time is a fluke.

Meanwhile, if the USA actually eliminated the fossil fuel incentives (tax credits, subsidizes, grants, rebates, etc..) and put all of that into solar development we would not be having this "problem" with China.
Comment
10 of 18
September 13, 2011
Longatcher: "None of the above" will do equally well - thanks!

I glimpsed the Florida candidates on TV yesterday. Carefully groomed hair, very expensive suits, fixed grins, fake charisma, patting each other on the back. Completely and utterly nauseating.
Comment
11 of 18
September 14, 2011
If predatory pricing needs to be eliminated (as with the Chinese solar industry), it needs to be done world wide. Developed countries like the US sell many products to the 2ns and the 3rd world at predatory rates, e.g. many agricultural products. If the US believes that materialist capitalism is the way to go, they had better start playing by those rules and not now start talking about government regulation. Play the market with demand and supply.
Comment
12 of 18
September 14, 2011
Oh my god ... predatory capitalism in China!? The US capital market used to be a good place for companies to obtain capital and launch new ventures - but not any more. US corporate and institutional investors prefer to invest in equities, commodities and derivatives (really just a mechanism to add cost without value to available capital)as opposed to enterprise. Currently, the primary sources of capital are individuals and foreign investment, the latter being the largest source by a factor of 6 and largely driven by trade imbalances. The biggest difference seems to be that Chinese banks are willing to invest in productivity in spite of risk as opposed to supposedly safe but inestimable things like derivatives. Sadly, the US is no longer the best place to start up an enterprise or do an IPO.
Comment
13 of 18
September 14, 2011
Let us put forth a referendum to establish term limits on all of Congres. The longer they are in office, the more corrupt they become. Congress's compensation should be directly voted on by the people....another referendum. Another referendum to limit campaign contributions to the people rather than multi billion dollar corporations. I don't believe that there is a single Congressman that hasn't been bought off...and for that matter the Judiciary who has sided with them.
Comment
14 of 18
September 14, 2011
Hi:

SO, since they are all bought off, how do you plan to accomplish this?? ...And since the media is controlled by the same money spewing fourth all the misinformation to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE making your agenda look like a communist takeover... where exactly do you think you are going to get... ???... But don't be disheartened, if you begin to be at all successful, they will find you in the desert, in your car OD'd on alcohol and drugs....

.....Bill
Comment
15 of 18
September 14, 2011
Not to worry ! A bill before the Senate will add an import
duty to any Chinese or foreign purchased solar panels. This will level the playing field.
Warren
Comment
16 of 18
September 15, 2011
@Warren2 - be careful what you wish for.

The US appears to be on the verge of installing many GW of solar in a single year in quantities that dwarf current North American capacity - so this is just a plan to drive up the cost of solar and is essentially protectionism for the fossil fuel industry that already has the advantage of hundreds of billions of US$ extracted from the public purse. If you think that driving up the cost of imports without establishing a stable and robust domestic market will stimulate a massive build-out of domestic manufacturing, you would be wrong.

If one looks at the supply chain for North American module manufacturing, many of the components are imported. Tariffs will hurt domestic manufacturers.

Remember, 'if you think they're looking out for you, you ain't even #2'.
Comment
17 of 18
September 15, 2011
Solar tariff on Chinese panels.

Here is a good figure to start.

The Fed is providing a 30% tax credit or grant for solar projects built in America. If we applied a 30% tariff on Chinese panels, at least the government would get the money it paid for Chinese panels back.
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Comment
18 of 18
Anonymous
September 16, 2011
Hmm what is missing here is the fact that SunTech uses Australian tehcnology, not Chinese. Further, the founder was a PhD graduate at UNSW where he learnt the technology developed by his supervisor (the world leader in solar research Prof. Martin Green) and others and went back to China to fund the company using tens of millions of funds from the Chinese government. The founder does seem to have a bit of a gift for the gaff - the opening overhead of his plenary in Melbourne a few years back had the motto which caused a few people at that meeting to whince - "Suntech: Selling Australian technology to the world". I believe he remains an Australian citizen - despite his gaffs, he is one of our richest people. There are some small returns to UNSW and Prof. Green I believe. Whilst clearly US has some problems, it is the same for every other party globally but if we dont fund our own ventures and so on on idealogical grounds based on utopian free trade supposedly doing everything, then we only have ourselves to blame. Of course have protectionist polices to redress these and other issues such as salary discrepencies: there is no such thing as a free trade or global world if all these other issues are not equal as well (you'd need a single currency...). The Chinese aren't stupid - they know they are starting low and need to climb quickly and they know western greed will accommodate that. The reality is you can still operate a solar business but at much lower profit margins - but we want maximum dollars asap so we increasingly go to where its happening at the moment: China. The good thing is we are pulling close to a billion people out of poverty in doing so - the danger is if we dont regulate this we put ourselves into poverty as well.
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