Renewable Energy Solar Energy Wind Energy Geothermal Energy Bioenergy Hydropower
 

Commercial Solar Hot Water Arrives in the Midwest

Do you like this opinion & commentary?

Email   Bookmark Bookmark   Print   Feed   Share
 

The information and views expressed in this article are those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on its Web site and other publications.

20 Reader Comments
No image available
Comment
1 of 20
Anonymous
August 5, 2011
"They have been implementing systems for many years; however, they are half way around the globe from us, and that renders their data unusable here."

How does being half way around the globe render European data unusable?
Comment
2 of 20
August 6, 2011
Good article on Solar WAter Heating. Incidentally it was in California and Florida the Solar Water Heaters started.

In the 1890s inventor Clarence Kemp introduced California to the Climax, the first commercial solar water heater. This simple solar water heater system combined collection and storage into one box. The Climax cost around $25.00 a year and would save owners around $9.00 in coal heating costs.

In the 1920s William Bailey introduced the first "thermosyphon" systems with a roof tank and collector below. These Day and Night systems were marketed for some time in both California and Florida but not elsewhere as any thermosyphon systems couldn't survive freezes. Also, the with the discovery of natural gas in California, which was cheap and highly marketed, the solar water heating industry in California took a chill.

From the 1930s to the 1970s, solar water heaters were being sold and shipped to the Caribbean. During World War II production stopped as copper was reserved for the military. Soon after though most Florida homes, especially new homes, had solar water heaters installed.
Off again
However, in the 1950s when electricity became so inexpensive, Florida utility companies gave away electric water heaters and now solar water heating took another chill in Florida.

Today You find Several new designs of Solar Water Heaters coming from China,Denmark,Germany etc.,

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Comment
3 of 20
August 6, 2011
Anonymous,
In response to your question, "How does being half way around the globe render European data unusable?"
There are many variables that potential customers, implementers, and investors look at when they consider involving themselves in new technologies. We have spent a lot of time speaking with engineering firms and architectural firms in our region. We consider them to be the 'gatekeepers' when it comes to what gets included in commercial building developments. Nearly every time we ask them what is holding them back from making the recommendation for solar hot water for their commercial development projects, the answer was the same: "Show us actual performance data from projects similar to those we specialize in." Their definition of 'similar to those we specialize in' means, similar buildings, similar climates, similar building codes, similar economic conditions, similar governmental regulations, similar rebate programs. All of those variables (and others), weigh into their evaluations of whether they can make the recommendation(s). The renewable energy environment in Europe, as compared to the United States, is vastly different, in nearly all those regards (codes, materials, Feed-In Tariffs, et al). So, for us to ask them to solely use the European data as basis, doesn't fulfill their needs. They want to see data from projects as close as possible to the situation and locale they are working on; and they are our (the industry's) customer, and it is our business to provide them with what they need, if we expect them to work with us. I should mention, I am already in contact with a number of manufacturers and engineering firms in Europe. I value their input, information and data; and am very thankful for that information. I also have to use it as an input, not a final solution, simply because it is not what the local engineers and architects require.
I hope that answers your question. If not, please let me know.
Comment
4 of 20
August 6, 2011
Dr. Nellore,
Your assessment is very accurate. The industry has had quite a roller coaster history. Through it all, we seem to always return to the technology. Why? I believe it is because it works, and works so well. I consider it far more efficient than PV and far less expensive to invest in and to maintain. And who can beat an energy source that arrives every morning and without a delivery charge? No emissions, dependable, scalable (as the Saint Paul project shows), and proven.
Thanks for your comments.
Comment
5 of 20
August 8, 2011
I installed solar for domestic hot water on my house in 2007. This was the best investment I ever made! It will pay for itself in two more years. Natural gas is my back-up, and my bill was $12 this month. I love that the sun comes up, the pump starts working, and I have almost free hot water all day every day. I wish the focus was on water and not electricity. I think people would be more inclined to move towards solar if they could see solar thermal's high ROI.
Comment
6 of 20
August 8, 2011
Nanfischer,
Thank you for the feedback; and I'm so happy your solar investment is working out so well for you!
I might want to talk with you in the future for other articles. We have such a shortage of data, it is always great when we can hear from those experienced implementers such as yourself. Spread the word; and Thanks again!
Comment
7 of 20
August 8, 2011
I do spread the word! I've been pushing solar for 30 years. :) I just sent you an email. Thanks, Richard!
Comment
8 of 20
August 8, 2011
The author says solar hot water heating "is far more efficient and cost effective than solar photovoltaics ... no argument there."

This is not always true. There are situations where it would be cheaper to heat water with PV, albeit there are no turnkey solutions available to do so.

Solar hot water systems in the United States are outrageously expensive. The typical quote is $5000.

This project is commendable. But the solar hot water industry is not transparent or competitive like the PV industry. The solar hot water industry should advertise their prices in thermal watts per dollar. And customers should be given efficiency data for different sun intensity and temperature delta. In short, there should be more standards and authorities and testing.

China has embraced solar hot water heating. The Chinese systems are very cheap and have a fast backback.

The Chinese and the Israelis have a major advantage over Americans. They live in apartment buildings with flat roofs, which favor simple free standing solar hot water systems and allow the costs to be shared by multiple households.
Comment
9 of 20
August 8, 2011
As Bman states, it's simply not cost effective for many people.

For example, my family spends about $10/mo on average on gas to heat water. If a typical solar hot water system costs $5,000, simple break-even point is 40+ years.

I'd be far better off spending that $5k on 1kW of grid-tied solar PV which will produce at least 1500 kWh / year. At a retail rate of $0.14 / kWh the simple break-even is about half that of the solar thermal system - and that's before any incentives.
Comment
10 of 20
August 9, 2011
It is good to see that solar water heating is coming back on a commercial scale again in the United States. As has been mentioned in the several comments, this is not a new technology. During the 1970's and 1980's there were a very large number of commercial solar water heating projects installed in the United States. As part of the effort, Department of Defense (DOD) facilities installed large systems for various uses such as food service, laundry facilities and dormitory applications. Over many years the performance data from these systems was collected and documented in the Department of Energy (DOE) literature. There were many other very large solar water heating projects installed in the mid-west in Minnesota for large housing projects. I was fortunate enough to be part of those project teams. All that information has been thoroughly documented in the DOE literature.
The problem with using the solar water heating in the United States, seems to be several folds. First the industry and the building professions seems to have lost track of all the developments that occurred in over thirty years in the field of commercial solar water heating. Most professionals are not aware of the information that exists. In the 1980's International Energy Agency (IEA) had several tasks for solar water heating systems. Enormous amount of information was documented and techniques were developed to design and evaluate solar water heating systems in a coordinated manner. In 1990's the DOE initiated a projects where a very large number of commercial solar water heating projects were re-evaluated and were reconditioned and data was collected. The lessons learned were documented in DOE literature. It is true that during the very early years, there were several demonstration programs where projects were not designed properly. However that may be true for many new technologies or applications. (Please see next note for continuation.)
Comment
11 of 20
August 9, 2011
(Continued from previous post)
Looking at 1990's and beyond, solar water heating has been a mature technology. There has never been a question about it working and performance. The technology is inherently very simple. Great advances were made in the solar thermal collector technology during the 1970's. The only question is the cost which brings me to the next issue below.
The cost of the solar water heating system in the United States is a big problem. A complete residential solar water heating system leaves a factory overseas for under $800. When this system gets installed in the United States the cost is over $7,000. There is something wrong here. In the 1980's the cost of a compete solar water heating system normalized on the collector area was $45 to $55 per square foot. I designed a large water heating system last year and the cost was over $120 per square foot of collector area. True that inflation and general cost increases make the cost high to a certain degree. The low production volume may be a factor as well. Additionally the commercial solar water heating systems are difficult to standardize and modularize as is being attempted for the residential systems. Another reason may be the lack of familiarity on part of the installers for solar water heating systems. During the 1990's some of the excellent documents were published by the DOE for the design and installation of the large solar water heating systems. There documents are the end result of millions of dollars' worth of research in the technology. Many design and installation professionals are not aware of these resources.
(Continued in the next note).
Comment
12 of 20
August 9, 2011
The design tools for the design of solar water heating systems exist in several forms as have been documented by the IEA and the information from National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL). The control systems used for the large solar water heating systems in the early times were primitive by today's standards. If technologies worked then there is no reason why it should not work now in a predictable manner.
Organization such as Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA) have developed standardized procedures for testing and rating of solar collectors and small solar water heating systems. These standards were the further developments which were initiated by the National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) and ASHRAE. There are ISO standards for similar systems as well.
So in my opinion, the issues are, lack of awareness of the technology and the available information on part of the designers and the installers as number one issue. The second equally important issue is the cost of the systems. Commercial systems designed properly using the latest "bankable" weather data must perform. The bankable weather data is considered to be "highly reliable", is already used for the design of large PV installations.
In summary, the professionals need to know the technology and the availability of enormous resources for this technology. Solar water heating is a very simple technology to use. The professionals must make an attempt to slowly integrate the technology in their projects in a phased manner, starting as small systems that provide a fraction of the total requirements. The equipment suppliers need to see a larger volume for the collectors and other equipment. This should lower the cost to an acceptable level. The available incentives from various sources also help.
(Continue in the next post - Last!)
Comment
13 of 20
August 9, 2011
(I am sorry to have to split the post but had to get the point across.)
And yes the technical performance data from Europe and elsewhere is useful here in the United States.
For large systems the key is good understanding of the technology and the available information by the building professionals and not reinvent the wheel!......
Thanks
I hoipe this helps everyone!
Comment
14 of 20
August 9, 2011
drees,
In your case, it might not be a good option; that is why we always suggest having an assessment done by a certified Assessor before going ahead. Homes with a lot of tree cover also are not advantageous sites. Just like PV, wind, or geothermal, any given alternative is not for 100% of the world. As you will note from the article, this is a Commercial project, not a residential one. It does however, serve a great number of urban residences, and that is the beauty of the District Energy system. Commercial sites are picked by their hot water use; such as hospitals, health clubs, manufacturing, hotels, restaurants, offices using steam or boiler heating, apartments or multi-family buildings using boiler heat, car washes, and certain agricultural applications, just to name a few.
Ten dollars a month for heating is a bargain! Enjoy it.
Comment
15 of 20
August 9, 2011
SolarGuy,
If you can provide us with links to all the specific data you stated exists, we would be grateful. We have an ongoing data research project going at Northern States Solar, and in many calls to DOE and other agencies, no one can tell us where that data is. So, PLEASE, drop me an email (go to northernstatessolar.com and use the contact us form) with the links. It sounds like you know exactly where that data is, and it would save us a lot of time and effort. Thanks in advance.
Comment
16 of 20
August 9, 2011
SolarGuy,
I'm not sure how you arrived at $120/sqft for your system; it seems quite high to me.
Also, I think you meant to refer to SRCC, not SEIA as the organization that tests and rates solar equipment.
You are right that better systems exist for solar design. There are actually a number of excellent applications on the market today. A lot has changed in the industry since the 80's and 90's. A number of the government programs require the use of any of a great number of such tools.
Again, please provide me with the links to those data resources you mentioned. It sounds like you know right where I can find them, and that would be very helpful!
Comment
17 of 20
August 9, 2011
Richard, you are quite correct the cost of $120 per sq ft is crazy and yet that is what we got for a decently designed commercial system with good quality flat plate solar collectors. Soething is surely wrong here with the prices!
Also I am sorry for the mix up, SEIA should be SRCC. Florida Solar Energy Center also does the same testing as SRCC.
About literature links, I would start with SRCC, ASHRAE and DOE. I am sure that people at DOE who you may have spoken with are not familiar with this information. The old timers at DOE are gone. Try going to the DOE document wsebsite OSTI bridge and you will see most of the information.
I will send more links later.
Comment
18 of 20
August 12, 2011
Performance data can be misleading especially when it comes to systems that depend on the weather. Nobody can predict when it will be sunny, windy or cloudy. With solar, it's take what you can get and use it wisely. That is the only real way to get the best bang for your buck.
Solar data is collected and averaged over weeks, months or years at different locations. I think we all know there are times when it rains 5 days a week or is beautiful 5 days a week. So an installed system may work up to design spec one year but lag the next. Sure it is a tool to help the customer believe that he/she is going to get a certain amount of output from their system, or a designer to put some type of numbers to their design to reinforce their decisions, but it is not set in stone. So it seems it really doesn't matter where the data comes from.
When modules are tested in a lab, artificial sunlight is created to determine input/output in order for SRCC to put their tag on them. Sure there are some real time tests also, but in the end it all comes down to mother nature and the user to get the best payback.
Comment
19 of 20
August 12, 2011
Thomas,
That would be one assumption. However, the data collection that Northern States Solar is working on includes solar irradiation recording at the collectors, real-time, as a data point, as well as ambient temperatures at the collectors, in the balance-of-system room, and ground water. So, as you can see, we are not using the type of monitoring model you are referring to. We find those previous models to be lacking, due in great part because they do employ 'averages' and 'assumptions'. We have been working with a couple of data-logger manufacturers and software developers for that purpose; and, are happy to report the costs have been less than we originally expected them to be. With the off-the-shelf knowledge and devices we already have, such data collection is not difficult. Similar to what you said, we don't believe laboratory tests adequate for actual performance data collection. Then again, those are 'rating tests', not 'performance monitoring', which are two completely different functions. The rating people do a very good job. However, we want actual data. We are not depending on 'averaged' data, as you mentioned. You can see we are improving on the status quo.
Your conclusion that 'so it seems it really doesn't matter where the data comes from', isn't one I would agree with. It does matter for our goals, providing the engineers, architects, property developers, and facilities managers (for starters) with the data they have told us they need in order to be comfortable with making the recommendation for commercial solar hot water. For you see, they are the decision makers, not us. They design and make the recommendations. For the most part, they are very interested; and, they work on the types of projects that could benefit the most from solar hot water. So, if they're asking, we're answering! We are about getting them ACTUAL performance data.
Comment
20 of 20
August 13, 2011
Richard I agree that real time data at a particular spot is the best way to determine total gain at that spot. Here is a site where you can monitor a comparison between flatties and evacs.
www.solarishot.com
He has several data loggers monitoring several parts of the system as well as graphs with data compiled over time. All is great, but it still does not have any control over the weather. Thus the data gathered here, just as anywhere, cannot be set in stone.
If someone needs to know exactly how much energy they are saving, I usually tell them to look at their fuel bill and see the difference there rather than investing in all kinds of monitoring equipment. Just another added cost. (And possibly a beginning to some type of gov. involvement/monitoring in the future of SHW)
But if someone just has to know the exact numbers, all is fine and dandy.
I know there are people who would want to look at a gage or digital read out to determine if they have hot water rather than looking out the window and seeing that the sun is out.
Also if a SHW is designed for a certain use and controls are installed in order for the system to operate just so, obviously monitoring verifies that the design is working, though it is still not necessary, a few temp/pressure gages and knowing the pumps on should be sufficient to know your process is working.
Add Your Comment

Registered users, please make sure to Sign-In. We and others want to know your ideas and opinions. If you are not yet Registered -- it's quick and easy. Just click below.
Thanks!

Register Now   Sign-In

Richard Carter

View Richard Carter's Profile
About: Richard Carter had been a business owner in Information Technologies for over 20 years, before creating Northern States Solar Services LLC, which is a research,... more »

Advertise With Us

PLANSEE SE Trojan Battery Company EnPower Systems Inc. Texas Combined Heat & Power Initiative Free Hot Water Total Energy USA Grundfos Direct Sensors
World's #1 Renewable Energy Network
PennWell
Renewable Energy World Magazine International Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo North America Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Europe Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Asia Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo India Renewable Energy World Conference & Expo Africa
RenewableEnergyWorld.com Solar Power Gen Conference & Expo Hydro Review Magazine Hydro Review World Magazine
HydroVision International HydroVision Brazil HydroVision India HydroVision Russia
Twitter Facebook Linked In RSS Feeds e-Newsletters