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We May Have to Choose Between Big and Small Renewable Energy

John Farrell
June 21, 2011  |  75 Comments

A recent Colorado news story captures the tension between two visions of renewable energy, with a quote that illustrates the conventional wisdom:

“It’s not an either or choice, that we only put solar on rooftops or on people’s homes or do utility scale, large projects,” said Pete Maysmith, executive director of the Colorado Conservation Voters.

“As we move forward toward energy independence, reducing our dependence on foreign oil, on dirty, polluting sources of energy like coal, we need to move forward on all fronts with renewable [energy], and that includes rooftop solar and community solar gardens, local power. It also includes utility-scale solar that is properly sited, and that’s really important.” [emphasis added]

On the contrary, we may have to choose.

Part of the choice has to do with the superiority of distributed generation.  Most states have sufficient renewable resources to be self-sufficient, the relative costs of local generation aren’t much higher (especially when factoring in local economic benefits), distributed generation of wind and solar can use an abundance of spare capacity on existing distribution grid infrastructure, often at a much lower cost than high-voltage transmission, and can scale up more quickly than centralized generation that relies on new transmission infrastructure. 

But the choice also comes from the reality that financial resources are limited, the system of regulations and incentives are skewed toward big, centralized solutions, and choosing one strategy (long-distance transmission of centralized generation) necessarily reduces the money available and future prospects for expanded distributed generation. 

The Federal Big Energy Gravy Train

This dynamic is playing out at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), where the federal government is routinely providing utilities with bonuses to their return on equity for large-scale, high-voltage transmission projects.  Since 2007, FERC has had 45 requests for bonus incentives for transmission development – authorized under the 2005 Energy Policy Act – and has provided all or most of the requested incentives in more than 80 percent of the cases.  With the bonuses, the average return on equity for utilities for their new transmission investments is nearly 13 percent. 

This high rate of return is a full 2.5 percentage points higher than the median utility return on equity, a value considered just and reasonable by state public service commissions in ordinary times.  However, these rewards came during a time when unemployment doubled, the stock market tumbled, and most corporations were lucky to have any profit.

The ratepayer impact of these bonuses is significant.  In a November 2010 criticism of FERC transmission awards, Commissioner John Norris noted that the 2 percent bonus FERC provided to the PATH high-voltage project on the Eastern seaboard would “cost [Maryland] ratepayers in PJM at least $18 million per year.”  The bonus payments were also given in concert with other incentives that reduced risk, including rate recovery during construction and guarantee of payment if the facilities were abandoned for reasons outside utility control. 

While FERC asserts that it uses the bonuses to help incentivize the development of new transmission to improve reliability and reduce congestion, it doesn't do its homework. Rather, FERC (1) refuses to study more economical alternatives, (2) doesn’t require the incentives to be necessary for the transmission development, and (3) doesn't even require that the proposed utility expenditures are prudent.  Some great quotes from the horse's mouth:

FERC: “There is no requirement in section 219 or Order No. 679 that an applicant must demonstrate that its project is the best of all possible projects, or that it has explored every conceivable alternative before deciding to proceed with a particular project."  

Docket No. EL08-77-000

FERC: “we note that [American Electric Power] is under no obligation under either FPA section 205 or FPA section 219 to establish that the incentives requested are necessary.” 

Docket No. EL06-50-001

FERC also routinely hands out a 0.5% bonus incentive to every utility for participation in its respective regional transmission organization (RTO).  This reward is given to every utility that asks for it, despite a Government Accountability Office report suggesting that the consumer benefits of such membership are unproven; and in one case, despite the fact that the requesting utility was already required by state law to participate in the RTO.

The most likely outcome of FERC’s lavish program for transmission development is a significant increase in utility shareholder profits at the expense of ratepayers, with only marginal improvements in the amount of available transmission capacity for new centralized renewable energy projects.  The program may actually decrease utility interest in expanding transmission capacity, because offering them a higher ROE increases the total cost of new infrastructure, decreasing the demand for it and reducing investment. 

We Have To Choose

When talking clean energy policy, it may sound inclusive to suggest that “we can do both” big, centralized and small-scale, decentralized renewable energy development.  But money for clean energy is zero-sum.  The millions of dollars FERC is expending to boost utility shareholder profits for new transmission development cannot be deployed as new distributed generation.  Instead, the focus on centralized generation infrastructure creates a path dependency that can limit opportunities for distributed generation development.

That's a bad deal, especially when there are signs that smaller generation gets bigger numbers of renewable energy projects online, faster.  If we care about the urgency of climate change, and desire the biggest bang for the renewable energy buck, we may have to choose a path.

This post originally appeared on Energy Self-Reliant States, a resource of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance's New Rules Project.  You can read more about these issues in the forthcoming report: Democratizing the Electricity System, coming June 22.

The information and views expressed in this blog post are solely those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on this Web site and other publications. This blog was posted directly by the author and was not reviewed for accuracy, spelling or grammar.

75 Comments

Register To Comment
ANONYMOUS
July 2, 2011
I don't quite understand Kirsten's point in comment #74. Denmark's renewable market would seem to be a strong example in favor of a robust grid. Much of Denmark's wind generation is exported to Scandinavia allowing it to handle spikes in production due to wind variability. If Denmark had to rely only on local distribution it would be forced to curtail a significant percentage of its wind generation. The only significant new wind generation that has come online in Denmark in at least the last 6+ years has been at off-shore sites. I think it would be hard to consider large offshore wind farms as consistent with the model Farrell advocates....
Steven
ANONYMOUS
July 2, 2011
Regarding the comments of the author of post 75:
This author seems to draw a distinction between those that advocate positions as representatives of non-profit organizations and those that represent corporations or governments. I think it is a mistake to assume that non-profit organizations possess special virtues and that corporations are inherently intent on plundering everything they can lay their hands on. I am far more concerned about whether or not a particular analyst properly weighs all factors or suppresses consideration of those that do not support their case. Farrell consistently neglects complications from intermittency in his various posts concerning local generation vs. non-local generation (i.e., those that depend more strongly on a robust grid) models. It is one thing to have personal preferences that one advocates for and quite another to skew one's analysis in an attempt to confuse the unwary--such tactics might be suitable for a lawyer but that are inappropriate for one who bills himself as a "researcher". The government is acting to promote grid improvements because a host of studies all show that to achieve a high penetration of intermittent renewables in the market we need to average production fluctuations over broad geographic areas. Instead of addressing these many studies Farrell merely chooses to imply that that new grid infrastructure is resulting from government-corporate collusion. This argument finds resonance is a certain segment of the population, so I suppose the tactic is successful in meeting his goals, but a flawed strategy for expanding renewable generation is going to increase costs and retard efforts to combat climate change.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
July 1, 2011
hey anonymous

Look I'm anonymous too. Yay! Farrell seems like a decent guy. Wikipedia, if you trust that source, describes the organization he is the senior writer for as:
"The Institute for Local Self-Reliance or ILSR, is a nonprofit organization that advocates for local solutions for sustainable community development such as local purchasing."

Then digging deeper his intentions seem very thorough in the same direction. I guess he could be fooling people, having some type of agenda that would be a misleading way to gain financially with his practices. but I think that doesn't matter.

You have now spent a matter of more than a week or two tearing others arguments apart simply for the chance to argue a point. I think you are only here to stir up trouble. I also think that there are other people here that are probably sick of seeing your response, the condescending nature of your words, and the lack of respect for professionals that may have a bias opinion, but are also there to have one. Your research seems very flawed in one point: you. your an anonymous poster. Not so much the point, but isn't it? I think you should either put up or shut up. Display facts clearly of your arguments and end it there. Otherwise your just throwing out more inconclusive crap that you are also saying everyone else is doing. Find yourself a new hobby, or a new lobby (hey, i wrote a poem!), and stop with the charade. You have alienated people who are here to move forward, not against, a strong movement to relieve the people of the monsters you apparently are in bed with, MAJOR CORPORATE INTERESTS THAT HAVE NO CARE FOR THE COMMUNITIES THEY INFECT. Have a good day! can't wait to see how you pointlessly attack my words!
Kirsten Hasberg
Kirsten Hasberg
July 1, 2011
Thank you, John Farrell, for these clear words! It's important to debunk the myth of "let's do it all". I'm blogging on this topic too, you can read more on my blog on Energy Democracy http://energydemocracy.tumblr.com where I have commented on your blogpost - and where you can also find a post about the desastrous consequenses experienced in Denmark after centralized solutions where preferred over decentral ones by the government.
Greetings from the Folkecenter for Renewable Energy in Denmark,
Kirsten
ANONYMOUS
July 1, 2011
Windsolar writes: "You are seemingly out of touch with current industrial Small Wind&Solar RD&T.

The latest Advanced Compound systems produce at rates much in line with current large non-RE systems and in some cases out produce them at lower costs."

Probably this is what he tells his customers when he markets microwind systems to them but the microwind market has a terrible reputation with many very disappointed customers. The clear trend in wind markets is toward larger turbines; "windsolar" claims to be an engineer in the wind market so surely he understands the scaling arguments concerning turbine size and production output. Putting a micro wind system on your own roof compounds the blunder of going small for a technology where all the advantages are with larger scale--then you almost certainly have cited at a suboptimal (and likely poor) wind resource. Stephen Lacey's comment in this thread: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2010/11/who-will-be-the-steve-jobs-of-microwind
sums up the situation well: "People have been innovating in this sector for a long time, with very little success. Any small-wind expert will tell you that rooftop wind is a terrible idea: The wind resource just isn't good enough. It's been very tough to create anything beyond glorified art...."

Lacey is not an anonymous commenter so "windsolar" can't use spurious assaults on his motivations such as by insinuating that he is a lobbyist.

Microwind may be appropriate for a few off-grid uses but it is never going to compete with large grid-tied wind farms.

Steven
ANONYMOUS
July 1, 2011
Mary:
Regarding comment #70, the statistics on the amount of PV manufactured and where it is used are really quite good. While it is true that there is a lot more activity in the residential rooftop market than their was a decade ago, this fact, and the anecdotal reports you remark on, don't tell the true story of where the solar PV market is headed. The clear trend is that solar installations that are larger than residential installs consume a majority (and increasing) percentage of all the PV that is manufactured and nearly all of this is tied to the grid. On a percentage basis, off-grid uses and residential uses are declining and it is these percentages you should be looking at if you want to spot trends. "Underground and unreported" (to use you phrase) uses of PV are clearly a tiny percentage of the market because the percentage of production that goes to known uses is quite high.

Very few people are going to want the hassle of dealing with their own electricity generation so this job is going to be done by corporations dedicated to that one task. Customers will demand much higher reliability of a utility provider than they would insist on if they managed their own system. To achieve this reliability while using intermittent resources the utilities are inevitably going to conclude an enhanced grid is the most efficient strategy. Reflexive suspicion of corporations and the government will lead to some resistance but inevitably the need for reliable and affordable power is going to overcome these factors. A smarter and more robust grid is the way of the future.
Steven
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 30, 2011
Clearly, I am in need of an editor. All applications seriously considered.

We think of the NYT as promotion, and my aunt lives in NY.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 30, 2011
Steven, I understand a certain cohort can live within the construct of a world reported on by large, grandfathered media. A percentage of that cohort is looking beyond that world.

The event I spoke of was heavily attended at a trendy German restaurant on one of Portland's trendiest streets. Much of Oregon is sparsely populated, but Portland is not, and Portland is the elephant in the state legislature of Oregon.

Not only that, but many of us here thing of The New York Times as a PR organ for Portland interests. My son in Cambridge and my aunt in Oregon frequently send me gushing reports on Portland in the NYT.

Government statistics lag what is happening on the ground, and even when they are reported, frequently the reporting guidelines are changed making it difficult to compare them from one time period to another.

I do not believe anybody much knows what is going on right now. So much activity is underground and unreported in the usual outlets.

I am noting your wish to dismiss my observations, but they are resonating with some who are here, and you will be prepared if I am right in what I see.

I have been blindsided in my life when I did not see cues I should have paid better attention to. I would not wish that on anyone.

I believe we will be better prepared to adapt, as an agglomeration of humans, if we have a diversity of clues before changes, some of which are predictable and some of which are not.
ANONYMOUS
June 30, 2011
Mary:
Regarding your comments in post#68, there is huge price premium associated with having one's own electricity supply complete with backup. Sure, if you are in an earthquake and if your system isn't destroyed you may benefit from access to electricity for the brief time before the supply is restored. A few residential users may opt for such security. However, most electricity usage is for industrial or commercial purposes and it would be entirely unaffordable for these users to have to maintain their own energy infrastructure. Even among the residential class of energy consumers many live in apartments or would not have space or funds or the desire for their own generation infrastructure. Most electricity production is going to come from energy companies and the energy will be distributed over a grid. We could invest in a grid that is robust enough to include lots of intermittent renewable generation or we could continue to rely on fossil fuels. Society as a whole does not have the financial resources to maintain storage sufficient to ameliorate intermittency if we insist on relying purely on local resources. I point out that the percentage of solar PV that is used for off-grid purposes or which is augmented by some sort of storage is declining as the market increases. Similar remarks are also true for wind generation. Judging trends in the energy markets by anecdotal information from encounters at Solar events is unreliable particularly if the events are held in rural locales such as Oregon.

I note that Farrell in his many articles neglects complications from intermittency --he doesn't argue that storage is an affordable alternative and presumably that is because he understands how weak such an argument is.
Steven
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 30, 2011
Steven, Los Alamos is at risk, and so are other industrial marvels around the world.

In the west, we are at risk of earthquake events that would disturb large generation and confound your wonder for the grid.

Old ways of reporting are not paying attention to what is going on in the grass roots, but new ways are.

I sat across from a utility worker at a Solar Oregon event, and he seemed not to be having a problem with having to de-couple. You can't know many real people without understanding that this is coming.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
June 30, 2011
I have seen evidence of 20KW, direct drive, sculpted form fibreglass/epoxy blade, contacting revolving head, electric control and brake, all complete and guaranteed, sans tower, from China, FOB about 10K$. I wish I had a better wind sight and tower. There is equipment out there for a slight risk. In all, nothing ventured nothing gained. I find certain Chinese people very honorable of agreements. Fearful sceptics beware. There are reasons China leads in all size wind machine production.
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 30, 2011
Anonymous you need to do some technical research. Ref. Dr. J-L Menet for a start.

You wrote above, 'Small wind turbines are never going to produce electricity at affordable rates and no wise investor would put a penny into such an investment.' You are seemingly out of touch with current industrial Small Wind&Solar RD&T.

The latest Advanced Compound systems produce at rates much in line with current large non-RE systems and in some cases out produce them at lower costs.

You do not seem to know what they are, cost of production, rate of utilization and public demand.(Read article in yesterdays USA TODAY)

Your agnotologicaL approach to the energy discussion is apparent. Put an engineer on your lobby staff and have them do some RD&T for you on the matter. Be more epistemologically inclined.

You must be too young (and for sure not an engineer)to know, never say never! Chuckle
ANONYMOUS
June 30, 2011
Phil writes in comment #62:
"The right size 2X4 liberally applied, so to speak, and the wise investor will choose to have more controll over the investments they make, like solar electric and heating, and in some cases, small wind...."

Small wind turbines are never going to produce electricity at affordable rates and no wise investor would put a penny into such an investment. Having Washington offer "incentives" (by which Phil would seem to mean subsidies) for a non-viable energy generation model would "mean failure". Fortunately, the US federal government recognizes the need for an enhanced grid to promote renewable generation, and the European governments recognize this as well. The notion that stability could be achieved using only local generation based on intermittent sources fails badly in any simulation. As appealing as the notion of generating ones own electricity might be, we cannot run an industrialized society using such a model.
Steven
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
June 29, 2011
I hear that! In WI, we have just had the 22nd annual Midwest Renewable Energy Fair, the largest and longest running fair of it's type. Hundreds of workshops and exibit booths. I again had a booth there talking myself hoarse and loving it.
Still, I feel we would benefit greatly from a secure FIT or SREC trading program with solar carve out and high enuff SACP to get people seeing solar as an income stream instead of an obligation.
Here, I am a member of an electric co-op for my E-power service. Their Mission statement says their purpose is to benefit the "members" of the co-op. They don't live up to it. They cry that the carbon costing is another tax, and the state bends. Most of the power base is coal, some nuke, some wind. We could easily become like NJ in terms of solar adoption but for the foot dragging conservative government. A low payment from them would start a large payment trade to solar users. Burn-tec use falls and solar use rises over time. Power is distributed- and that may be the petty fear of the monied set.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 29, 2011
Phil, I think people are going to do this, no matter what Washington does. One might as well have something that adds value where one is. While keeping money in a bank will present a risk Washington will decide to take it, or parts of it, it seems clear they won't care to come collect your solar panel off your roof.

People in Oregon are already setting up their own panels, converting cars to electric, charging up their vehicles at home, and commuting that way. They come to solar fairs to talk about it.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
June 29, 2011
I offer another way to look at it. The USA is different in that there allot of ex-urban wet dreamers with large yard space and investment capital that wall street has claimed as theirs. The right size 2X4 liberally applied, so to speak, and the wise investor will choose to have more controll over the investments they make, like solar electric and heating, and in some cases, small wind. It will require pressure on Washington to not stand in their way and even offer incentives. This may be the real solar revolution front. It will mean success or failure.
ANONYMOUS
June 29, 2011
Windsolar writes in comment #60: "RE Energy is right now going by pocket book choice distributed: ON-THE-HOUSE ; OFF THE GRID."

The amount of off-grid energy production in the US is totally negligible and the percentage of solar PV going to off-grid uses is dropping--not increasing. It is simply not viable for businesses or most city dwellers to survive off grid so the grid isn't going away. The only question is whether the grid is improved sufficiently that it can accommodate a significant percentage of intermittent renewables or whether we continue to rely on coal and natural gas. Most new generation capacity in the US is still coming from natural gas or wind power and neither of these is appropriate to residential rooftop usage.

Furthermore, the percentage of solar PV that is on residential houses is fairly small both in the US and in Europe and there are no signs that this is going to change in the near future. "Windsolar's" claims are without basis.
Steven
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 29, 2011
This time next year it will not matter if any of the observers of the policy ranks are even around. RE Energy is right now going by pocket book choice distributed: ON-THE-HOUSE ; OFF THE GRID.
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 29, 2011
Phil Manka,
Well put : "Distributed power could avoid the need for grid bailout" Yes, we fuzzy thinking leftists are helping out more than ourselves. I just want to save the world. One nega-watt at a time.We are up to 59 comments on this topic, and I hope the editors keys into the idea of DISTRIBUTED POWER.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
June 28, 2011
I sell my PV solar power in a net metering state. I do not get the full retail costs of the delivery, since the Ute has a per diem charge added to the KWH charge. Since the KWH charge does not include infrastructure costs, I feel it is barely fair to recieve only this amount, since I certainly have production costs too, and pay the Ute for supporting their infrastructure. I produse over twice the KWH's I use. Since the PV power is made mostly on peak daytime demand, it serves to keep a portion of peak grid stresses down. Distributed power could avoid the need for grid buildout, whether it be PV or thermal, it avoids the loads on the grid or other fuel supplies. If it ain't "burn-or=Nuke tec" it should be incentivised and used to fill the power peak demand.
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 28, 2011
Or....Probably better to sell to your neighbors directly instead.....Then they lose customers and fees.
ANONYMOUS
June 28, 2011
steve-poppitz-157135 writes in comment #55:
"if you make an extra Watt
and sell an extra Watt
you should get paid for said Watt"

I note that a Watt is a unit of power, but people buy and sell energy--which has units of joules or kWh.

He also writes:
"(you should) NOT have fees subtracted out and get the 'net'."

Naturally small producers deserve the wholesale price for any energy they sell; net metering gives them the retail price, which is much higher and constitutes a significant subsidy. It would be entirely unreasonable for such producers to also demand free grid access; the utilities spend lots of money maintaining the grid and they cannot be expected to give their services away for free. The companies he rants about having to pay no income tax actually DO pay taxes. If he would like to complain about a huge company that pays no taxes I recommend he complain about GE--which happens to wind a large wind turbine producer (among many other ventures).
Steven
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 28, 2011
if you make an extra Watt
and sell an extra Watt
you should get paid for said Watt
NOT have fees subtracted out and get the 'net'.

If we start leveling the energy playing field with this little concept.Then stop subsidizing huge megaCorporations (Exxon,Duke Energy,Xcel,etc.)that pay no income tax, we'll see renewable energy sky-rocket in growth.ie,Germany,China,Brazil,etc.
ANONYMOUS
June 28, 2011
steve-poppitz-157135 writes in comment #52:
"You are a net producer and yet you are penalized."
and
"This is why Germany has most of the PV solar in the world, and still growing fast"

Penalized is a strong term for someone receiving very favorable rates (net metering) and the large benefits of grid access. About 40% of a typical residential users charges are due to distribution costs so even at almost a $1 a day (which probably includes taxes) the author of comment #50 is still paying less for grid benefits than most customers. In the long term net metering will only work if the utilities are able to charge a fair amount for the connectivity service they provide.

As for the remark about Germany, their PV industry is doing well due to huge subsidies rather than because of US net metering policies. I will also note--as it directly relates to the theme of this blog post--that the Europeans, including Germany, have made a strong commitment to grid improvements because they see this is necessary for a high percentage of renewable generation.
Steven
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 28, 2011
Hi:

#50. That seems like a high connect fee. Here in PA on PPL utilities, the charge is the customer connection charge at about $ 8.75 per month which personally I think is fair. After all you are using them as a huge electrical "dampener". That has value in several different ways....

.....Bill
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 27, 2011
Dear Anonymous ( comment # 50),
This is the very thing wrong with our energy system. You are a net producer and yet you are penalized.Xcel & Duke Energy are NOT PENALIZED for producing additional power, neither should you be penalized. Tell you senators.Tell your neighbors. TELL EVERYONE.
This is why Germany has most of the PV solar in the world, and still growing fast. We need socialist answers. Don't confuse this with communism that doesn't work.This does.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 27, 2011
I don't know the answer to Anonymous 50's request, but I wanted to post a link just to show I am not out in Oregon making this up about DIY'ers.

Here is a link from the mighty NYT that backs me up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/garden/10texas.html?_r=4

When it hits the mainstream, you know it's gotten too big to totally ignore.
ANONYMOUS
June 27, 2011
I live in a "net-metering" state. My PV array consistantly produces more than double the amount of electrical energy we use. Yet, I have an electrical Ute bill each month because they charge me nearly a dollar a day just to connect to the grid.
........As a net producer, I could defer this charge and then recieve the wholesale cost of the energy I produce, about half of the retail charge.
.........Or I can install more PV panels and inverter hardware to increase the production level, thus receiving higher payment for all my production after covering the connection charges.
.........Which is the best way to go?
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 27, 2011
Somebody did not want farmers to be able to make their own fuel, so he funded Prohibition and all that bloodshed.

A garage-sale find provided the history, bought by the heirs of Dr. Bronner, the soap genius, that a hemp farm existed under where the Pentagon now is, for rope and other needed products.

Canadian farmers can safely grow hemp for the oil used in Dr. Bronner's soaps and for the nutritious, high Omega-3 oil seeds you can get in a health-food store.

U.S. farmers, in the land of the used-to-be free, cannot grow this plant that has accompanied humans for ages.

Close to everything now made from pumped oil and its left-overs can be made from the hemp plant, as Lord Rees-Mogg famously pointed out.

Meanwhile, the U.S. taxpayer funds the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and we have worse bloodshed than we had during alcohol Prohibition.

Corruption cannot continue to compound indefinitely. Some of it finally got wrung out after the other depression, and it will implode again.

The idiocracy in D.C. and its horrid influence on the states is a wonder indeed. It takes wit, work, and luck not to be seriously harmed by it.

U.S. ordinary people are treated as witless by government. Nonetheless, when they have to, U.S. people use pop cans, duct tape, wire, and whatever to get around junk law. Jury-rigging goes on underground until there is so much of it, it becomes de facto legal.

Official pilot projects are subsidized for connected people.

Unconnected off-gridders fund themselves.

Some places are still having traffic jams and lines at the coffee shop, even during a serious downturn. While close to 2,000 may show up for the job fair for 200 jobs (free coffee while you wait in line at a New Seasons job fair in Portland), it is not as bad as the earlier depression--progress has sort of happened.

Corruption and dysfunction are still frustrating to fund and tolerate.
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 27, 2011
or

imagine where it will be in a few years
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 27, 2011
Hi:

JC people, what a ridiculous argument...
You do both with grid tie and backup. You use the power company as an electrical flywheel. As for batteries being expensive, loose the contents of your 20 ft3 freezer and a refrigerator/freezer to a 3 day power loss. That will run you an easy $750, enough for 3 Trojan 370AH L16's...
By being a low gen producer on the grid, you can power your whole house and one or two electric vehicles.
The greatest scam on the American people was the ICE for autos. Imagine a personal transportation device, NOTE personal not public, that you have to take somewhere to energize it, and wait it gets better, you cannot make the energy source yourself. You can not energize it at HOME!! You must subscribe to the monopoly making the energy supply!! In, "Total Recall", Cohegan being the single air supplier on Mars had nothing that the oil companies don't have here on earth. Autos started out as electric vehicles which could be charged at home, and you can produce the energy yourself if desired. Imagine where battery tech would be today if the auto industry had not sold out to ICE tech...
Oh well, such is history....

.....Bill
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 27, 2011
Marine deep cycle battery....$100
20 Watt solar panel with controller..$200
1000 Watt inverter.... $120

Peace of mind during power outages ...Priceless
Bob Rogers
Bob Rogers
June 26, 2011
Incentives for ethanol come from the economy so it helps to get some perspective on what supports those incentives today. A dollar invested to drill for oil in Saudi Arabia or Iraq now will generate about $20 to $30 in value per month. The same dollar invested in the US produces much less, perhaps $2 of value per month, a reflection that the "easy" reserves are gone. A dollar invested in wind or solar now produces between a quarter cent and 2 cents of value per month. Investments in the production of ethanol today produce less than a half cent per month. Obviously, no matter what breakthrough is made in lowering ethanol costs, life will change drastically when the easy reserves of oil, coal, and natural gas are used up. NASCAR may become a symbol of the past, but so will 80% of the economy as we know it today. So many people believe we simply replace one fuel with another. However, the good times today come from burning the 200 million year investment of fossil fuels in 200 years.
ANONYMOUS
June 26, 2011
Thomas writes in comment #43:
"And why stockpile food and water. That's kind of like storage isn't it? "

This is, of course, an important distinction. Storing minimal supplies of food and water costs nearly nothing. Energy storage--especially electricity generated by variable sources renewables--is expensive so it is far more efficient to rely on a robust grid. Thomas seems particularly impervious to economic arguments; perhaps he is burdened with spare cash and can squander resources. This is a luxury society in general does not have; resources are scarce and we need to manage them efficiently. An electricity grid is far more efficient than relying on local storage of energy.
Steven
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 26, 2011
'In the event that my location is hit by a tornado I have a Faraday flashlight (it doesn't get any more RE than that) and a stockpile of food and water in case I lose essential services.'

Once again, you are contridicting yourself. Hopefully that flashlight is big enough to keep you warm. (My small battery and inverter can power my furnace, lights and tv for emergency info.). And why stockpile food and water. That's kind of like storage isn't it? Can't you just depend on your local supermarket for supplies during loss of essential services?

'That way, when people google me they find what they are looking for--my peer reviewed articles and associated links--rather than banter about blogs.'

If your banter is anything like your articles, I can see why you want to remain anonymous.....
ANONYMOUS
June 26, 2011
Thomas writes in comment #39:
"Steven, I guess it's going to take one of the many tornados, floods, snow storms, and overall blackouts that have been happening so often over the past decade to hit your area for you to catch on...."

In the event that my location is hit by a tornado I have a Faraday flashlight (it doesn't get any more RE than that) and a stockpile of food and water in case I lose essential services. The incremental protection that local energy storage would afford me is very slight. In contrast, climate change is a much greater and more likely peril than a tornado and because we have finite resources we need to mitigate this threat as efficiently and effectively as possible, which involves using a robust grid to improve the market penetration of renewables. Utopian plans made in the absence of economic considerations are a very poor way of addressing problems.

Regarding the perceived clarity of various statements, if I tried to explain physics to a cat, the cat's lack of comprehension would say more about the limitations of the cat than it would about the limitations of the explanation.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
June 26, 2011
Regarding comments by "mdnghtchnsw" in comment #40:

You seem rather hung up by anonymous comments and the remote possibility that a lobbyist might dare to convey a thought on an obscure blog. IF lobbyists confined their activities to honest commentary intending to convince others by force of ideas--instead of financial pressure--they would be a useful part of the discussion. You yourself are practically anonymous because you list only your name in your profile and if I google "Scott Timmons" I find lots of hits and no obvious leads to who you might be. Perhaps you are a lobbyist (not that that would concern me). I am not an RE insider and prefer than my recreational interests remain clearly separate from my professional activities; thus, I like anonymous posts. That way, when people google me they find what they are looking for--my peer reviewed articles and associated links--rather than banter about blogs.

Regarding the rest of your post, you frame the discussion as the grid vs. RE but the real conflict is between local generation with storage and non-local generation with grid transportation. The relative merits of these two options merit--at least in my opinion--consideration. Unfortunately, Farrell consistently ignores such factors and it would seem that he does so because the conclusions that would be drawn from such consideration would lead one to doubt his other arguments. I point out that Farrell is a paid advocate for a specific position; the distinction between that and a lobbyist seems pretty slight to me, and yet curiously no one seems especially concerned about that. I focus on ideas so I'm not concerned about Farrell's motivations--just his arguments--but several other posters here seem to have a very inconsistent concern about who is and who isn't a paid advocate. I wonder why that is....
Steven
scott timmons
scott timmons
June 26, 2011
It's pretty funny to me the amount of effort that goes into arguing a point. The reality is that we are moving into the future. With RE being on the rise and the eventual, maybe even distant, collapse of our current energy dependence on coal and oil, you have to see the point in pushing for RE. technology doesn't advance standing still. We didn't come this far to stop where we are. but, in defense to anonymous steven, who should just put his info out there with his opinion, he does have a point. The grid is stronger, in average, than RE. But tomorrow it wont be. And that is tomorrow. It's time for you guys to stop trying to out do each other in argument and collaborate.
STEVEN, if you want to continue your conversation, why don't you come back into it with yourself to back it up. otherwise, I as well as a few others will consider you to be involved with what is popularly becoming apparent. Lobbyists and large companies are out here trying to take away credibility and replace it with doubt. Be a man, which I hope you are, and come out with it. It's free to sign up and you spend enough time here anyway.
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 25, 2011
Steven, I guess it's going to take one of the many tornados, floods, snow storms, and overall blackouts that have been happening so often over the past decade to hit your area for you to catch on....

As far as comparing clarifying and revising, if you were clear and correct in the first place there would be no reason to revise.....

cudos Mary and Steve P.
ANONYMOUS
June 25, 2011
continuation of comment #37:
"Thomas also writes: "...personal storage systems to reduce dependence on
the grid is not that expensive."

I point out that we already have something much cheaper and more efficient than personal storage--it is called the grid. Line loses are only a few percent whereas battery losses are a significant multiple of that. Even if personal storage systems were affordable--and they are not--we would still need a mechanism to ensure a stable energy supply for large energy users such as factories, retail locations, etc. So we need a grid and once one pays for it there is little reason not to have personal residences also enjoy the benefits of it. Perhaps a few Luddites or isolationists will so crave independence that they will be willing to pay extra to live off grid; I suppose they will also grow their own food, spin their own cloth, make their own pencils, etc. However, most of the rest of us recognize that the interdependence associated with civilization has led to greater efficiency and higher standards of living and will recognize that the energy grid offers key advantages.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
June 25, 2011
Thomas writes in comment #30:
"Well Steven, if that is your real name, you obviously had to clarify your statements.
"Lots of states have sufficient wind resources to generate more energy than they consume over the course of a year," ..seems like a prediction to me."

Clearly Thomas is a bit confused so to be kind I have attempted to clarify a few elementary points for him. He should not confuse this with revising points. I'm not sure why anyone would quibble with the statement that lots of western states have harvestable wind resources that exceed their current energy usage; this isn't a prediction on my part--EIA estimates are quite clear on this issue. Farrell has written an entire report:
http://www.newrules.org/energy/publications/energy-selfreliant-states-second-and-expanded-edition
in which he discusses such estimates. When I mentioned this banal fact in my first post it was merely to point out that I was not disputing this obvious (to everyone but Thomas) point. I dispute Farrell's notion that the mere existence of vast quantities of intermittent local resources makes reliance on local generation feasible. A robust grid allows one to access energy from a wide variety of geographically dispersed resources. When generation is averaged over a wide area many of the problems of intermittency are mitigated (i.e., the wind is almost always blowing somewhere). A great many studies have suggested that a robust grid is critical to achieving high market penetration of intermittent resources for just this reason. When arguing the case for local generation instead of making improvements to the grid Farrell neglects the costs of dealing with intermittency. Presumably the reason he does this is because a robust grid is much more efficient than developing expensive storage.

CONTINUED
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 25, 2011
Amen, Steve Poppitz.

We need to look at used stuff with new eyes. I have been fascinated with Curitiba, Brazil, for some time and recently searched what is going on there again.

I readily admit that the link I am inserting here is pretty rosy and leaves out some current challenges from success, but Curitiba is still a shrine much visited in the how-to-make-cities better contest.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/06/jaime.lerner/

One of the continuing challenges is river pollution, which is addressed better in some other places. Still, there is much to learn from Curitiba.
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 25, 2011
The last home I designed, we spec'd a system with $20,000 in a solar system, and $7000. in batteries. These guys searched, and searched. did all of the work themselves. costs came in at $11,000 for solar and $650. for recycled marine batteries.
so...
I love your first attempt at 'the numbers', but full boat retail isn't even that high.

NOW, someone with better expertise than I should compare solar to coal on the cheap end, and nukes on the rediculously high end.
bet we'd continue never building nukes again, and quickly figure out that distributed solar is cost comparitive to coal already,and certainly in the near future, as the price of extracting coal is going up and PV panels are going down. Not to mention the environmental destruction that coal mining does, and the air pollution, and the climate changing,etc.etc.
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
continuation of comment #31:
"Windsolar then writes: "If one enclouded the costs to all of us of the government support of big-energy, the costs per watt would well be over $20/watt system. "

I like prices for energy not power; the latter leads to all manner of meaningless comparisons due to the distinction between peak power and dispatchable power and similar complexities. Dollars per joule (or kWh) with clear numerical values would be a good start. I dispute the notion that pricing in the present electricity market is significantly distorted by lobby efforts, corruption, massive government subsidies and the like.

Steven
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
In windsolar's comment #26 He writes:
"Grid power-resistance(meaning electrical) losses are never spoken of, yet they are major. "

Actually these are mentioned all the time, but they are only a few percent. Losses from most energy storage systems (e.g., pumped hydro, batteries, hydrogen storage, etc.) are much higher than the line losses associated with the grid as windsolar is perhaps already aware. If he thinks he has a counterexample this would be an excellent time to mention it....

Windsolar goes on to write: "However Anonymous is dead wrong in saying that energy storage is too expensive..."

The only extant large scale store is pumped hydro, which isn't an option in many locations. The fact that there isn't anything else on the market is because of the price. If windsolar disputes this, perhaps he will offer specific counterexamples and detailed cost data. Often the term affordable is used in ways most of the population would find inappropriate--especially when things are funded with other people's money. Detailed examples of extant technology or references to the peer-reviewed literature or even EIA or DOE reports would be nice choices for evidence to present. Nebulous claims that his company will one day apply for a patent on some now secret technology must be taken with a grain of salt. Certainly the government's plans for expanding the grid cannot be put on hold based on such dubious assertions.

CONTINUED...
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 24, 2011
Well Steven, if that is your real name, you obviously had to clarify your statements.
"Lots of states have sufficient wind resources to generate more energy than they consume over the course of a year," ..seems like a prediction to me.

"...averaging out regional intermittency via a robust grid" ...how you gonna do this without fossil fuels?

"How does mentioning this in any way refute my claim that the type storage that would be required in order to rely on locally generated intermittent renewables is expensive?...personal storage systems to reduce dependence on
the grid is not that expensive.

"Every winter I note about 16 hours of darkness"...still leaves you with 8 hrs of daylight..enough to charge some batteries for night time use.

"Furthermore, the SEASONAL variation between summer and winter insolation makes solar intermittency a very poor match for my local energy usage profile."...perhaps you can learn to be more energy efficient.

"Alaska have the highest electricity costs of any place in the nation" ...mostly due to long, expensive, inefficient transmission lines.

"I suspect he is doomed to continued disappointment..." ...only in people with your mindset.
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
"Windsolar" in comment #26 writes: "In looking over all of Anonymous' comments. Looks like a lobbyist. Most others are honest enough to be some what identified."

In my profession (a research scientist) anonymous commentary is used all the time (and denoted peer review). It is supposed to, among other things, force one to focus on the ideas expressed rather than the personalities involved. "Windsolar" might want to try that sometime rather than assume that every person who dares to disagree with him is a member of a cabal of evildoers. Of course, if one knows that one's arguments are weak perhaps misdirection is a rational tactic....
Steven
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
Continuation of comment #27:

Thomas also writes: "A good part of Alaska has storage based back up for entire cities..." This is true, but my understanding is that this is fossil fuel based and that these portions of Alaska have the highest electricity costs of any place in the nation. How does mentioning this in any way refute my claim that the type storage that would be required in order to rely on locally generated intermittent renewables is expensive?


Thomas then asks: "When is the last time you saw no daylight during a 24 hr period...?"

Every winter I note about 16 hours of darkness where I live, which coincides with my greatest energy usage (for heat). The fact that there may have been some minimal light on noon the day before is of little import if I don't have expensive storage for this solar power. Furthermore, the SEASONAL variation between summer and winter insolation makes solar intermittency a very poor match for my local energy usage profile. Energy storage for a season is vastly more expensive than energy storage for a few hours and even if one only worries about the latter it is very very expensive.

Finally, Thomas writes: "If you are so against RE, what are you doing here in the first place? " His inference that I oppose RE is foolish and false. I am, however, opposed to slipshod reasoning and specious arguments wherever they occur. Thomas seems annoyed that anyone who does not share his dogmatic worldview would dare to express a contrary opinion in an open forum. I suspect he is doomed to continued disappointment....
Steven
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
Well, The remarks of Thomas in comment #25 are a small step forward in that at least he attempts (poorly) to address the subject rather than rant about how I have the temerity to comment anonymously (technically semi-anonymously because he can distinguish my anonymous comments from other anonymous comments by the presence of a first name signature).

The word "insure" is often, as in my comment above, used in the same sense as ensure--it does not alway infer the presence of a financial policy offering compensation in instances of trouble.

As for his remark: "And it is a wonder how you can predict which states will provide wind. Hopefully you don't live in the doldrums..." I note that the author of the article authored another article cited above directly claiming that most US states have sufficient wind resources to provide for all of their energy needs. This is a banal truth with provides no insight into whether on not a stable energy infrastructure could be maintained strictly from such supplies. Clearly Thomas is still a bit confused because I have made NO prediction on the timeliness with which such energy could be supplied--my specific point is that neglecting such complexities makes distributed generation in the absence of a robust grid seem far more reasonable that it really is.

Thomas also remarks "And what happens when your fossil fuel supplied grid runs out of fuel?" Here he seems to have completely lost track of the subject under discussion, which is whether local renewable generation or renewable generation distributed via the grid is more feasible. Fossil fuels were not part of the discussion....

Continued below...
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 24, 2011
Steve, Mary, et al, I/we in comment 15 laid out for Annomous that after two years+ RD&T see ON-THE-HOME : OFF-THE GRID compound RE systems coming. WE know this to be true as we are in Patent efforts on these matters. And we know we are not the only knives in the drawer.

The so called grid is as we speak threatened by wild fires to Tuscon, failed in Houston TX big time this past spring, had one hell of a failure a number of years ago when major parts of the east coast went off line, and now a nuclear facility is in the floods of the northern mid America. Grid power-resistance(meaning electrical) losses are never spoken of, yet they are major.

Anonymous is correct in saying RE is intermittent. Therefor energy storage is required to smooth it out. True.

However Anonymous is dead wrong in saying that energy storage is too expensive. That statement is not true. Evidently Anonymous is not fully up on RE integrated and compound RE systems of the distributed types. In my comments #15, all of those costs are with energy storage. The reason is:we do only RD&T on full up advanced compound RE systems. So yes we have a pretty good idea of "total" costs. If one enclouded the costs to all of us of the government support of big-energy, the costs per watt would well be over $20/watt system. Want to go toe to toe my friend Anonymous? There are more hidden support elements than most realize. Want me to start naming them? How about the lobby group expenditures as a start. Say over $100 million! Your company in there?

In looking over all of Anonymous' comments. Looks like a lobbyist. Most others are honest enough to be some what identified.
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 24, 2011
Anonymous Steven writes, 'Once you include costs for insuring reliability an enhanced grid is an obvious choice,'

If the grid is so reliable then how come it has to be insured?
And it is a wonder how you can predict which states will provide wind. Hopefully you don't live in the doldrums....And what happens when your fossil fuel supplied grid runs out of fuel? See you in the dark ages.....

As far a storage goes...do a little research. A good part of Alaska has storage based back up for entire cities and is one of the worst weather regions in the world where grid lines are subjected to failure. So not only is storage possible it is in operation and working well.

'Unfortunately, the arguments neglect the costs of addressing intermittency' Nonsense on your part. When is the last time you saw no daylight during a 24 hr period or a river that stopped flowing or the earth stop producing geothermal heat?

If you are so against RE, what are you doing here in the first place? You only verify my question of who is monitoring these sites and why.
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
Thomas writes in comment #23:
"Love how all these "Anonymous" writers go against the grain of supporting systems that benefit the user."

Clearly Thomas gets a bit annoyed when someone points out the flaws in his dogmatic nonsense and attacks the commenter when he cannot dispute the comment.
Steven
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 24, 2011
Love how all these "Anonymous" writers go against the grain of supporting systems that benefit the user. Makes you wonder who is monitoring these blogs.....
ANONYMOUS
June 24, 2011
The author, while citing his earlier claims, states: "Most states have sufficient renewable resources to be self-sufficient". Unfortunately, he arguments neglect the costs of addressing intermittency. Lots of states have sufficient wind resources to generate more energy than they consume over the course of a year, but this is very different from providing an affordable supply of energy to consistently meet demand. Intermittency can be addressed in two ways--by storage, which is a huge expense, and/or by averaging out regional intermittency via a robust grid. Farrell compares distributed generation costs without storage costs to the non-local model, which is stacking the deck. Once you include costs for insuring reliability an enhanced grid is an obvious choice, at least if one wants renewables to have more than a tiny market share.
Steven
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 23, 2011
If it does not change soon, we could say the feds are parasitic, but more or less irrelevant.

The question is which way trending is running on a wasting/irrelevance axis. I do not have the expertise to compose and chart a W/IR axis, but I would like to see it if someone knows of one already charted or how to do one if it does not yet exist.

Could a forensic-auditor kind of person figure something out that measures the consequences of using tax money taken from retail clerks and giving it to sycophants who present already-done research as if it were their own?

I am not discounting that some federally-funded research may product useful results, but it is not too cheeky to ask the percentage. Why should we not know these things?
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 23, 2011
Again I warn everyone the first word in FERC is Federal. And don't expect much help there. Our new energy economy (in the USA)is going to come from a) individuals b) companies c) state and local. The Fed's are just talk. Let's hope this changes, SOON.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 23, 2011
Advanced adopters move on from geese to the next artisan source of calories.

A penny invested in tampons at the outset did not net much, but eventually the early adopters made some money. I owe this story to Nora Ephron I think, who wrote that her mother heard about tampons and immediately asked, "Is that over-the-counter?"

There are two golden rules, and there are adherents for each one. I know where Bill Gates is invested, but he is not a hero to me.
Bob Rogers
Bob Rogers
June 23, 2011
A 7% energy growth means that energy use doubles in ten years ( 70/7% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY). Energy used in the doubling decade is greater than all energy used in all prior decades.

During the 1950s the US used more oil that decade than it had used in all prior decades. It repeated that in the 1960's. During the 1970's, the US reached peak oil, OPEC took the blame for rising oil prices and shortages, and the US consumption of oil fell remarkably. 40 plus nuclear plants were approved for construction during the oil crisis which means their viability was dependent on an oil embargo type event. That is how markets work.

Peak Oil for the world probably took place in 2006. Everyone is still waiting for the repercussion. It is somewhat obvious that what happens on one side of a bell shaped curve, happens on the other side. In one of the coming decades the world will use more oil in one decade than in all future decades (given a minus 7% growth rate). On this side of the bell curve, though, there are more people to share dwindling oil and oil burning machines that get underutilized when it is scarce. That means soon lucrative RE incentives will be long forgotten.

A typical central PV or CSP plant delivers 15% or less of the acquired sunlight as benefits. A distributed plant has the ability to deliver two or three times that. It is obvious which will win out as things get tight.

Incentives come from the economy so it helps to look at how they are derived. A dollar invested in an oil well in Saudi Arabia or Iraq now will generate about $20 to $30 in value per month. A dollar invested in wind or solar now produces between a quarter cent to 2 cents of value per month. Obviously, incentives come from a fossil fuel economy, not a RE one. That probably means incentives will always benefit a wrong direction. Environmentalists, public workers, and others will not kill geese that lay golden eggs.
ANONYMOUS
June 23, 2011
In February, FERC suspended the PATH line in order to reevaluate the need in light of the developments in Renewable energy use that have reduce grid demand for WVA coal.

The producers announced they were going to withdraw the application.

We just need to see that they have the information they need to evaluate what they do.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 23, 2011
Bill, I share your frustration, and I don't believe a governor has as much power to ruin things presently as in the recent past.

FERC and cronies have failed in Oregon with plans that they could have stuffed through in previous years.

Groups such as BARK are going door-to-door, providing hikes to help city people understand what could be lost by pipelines, and these sorts of groups got the former governor on board.

These guys think they can control things the way they want, and the system persists in allowing them delusions of grandeur, but there is a life cycle on delusions of grandeur.

The U.S. has canned naked emperors before, and it is entirely likely it will happen again. It looks bad before the walls fall down, but fall they do.
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 23, 2011
Steve, et al,

Here is how fast the world is changing on RE. We were a wind only start-up manufacturer two years ago. Now we are 100% Advanced Compound RE. Why? Because the costs of the solar elements tumbled down. So now we can offer twice the RE power on the same system at a nominal cost up. We have wind+solar+hydro RD&T going on.

The battery was at first Lithium(Li)types. Then China decided that their 97% market share was enough to control the market and they are! That drove us into an energy storage systems search. This was great as we found more economical ways to store energy:some worth Patenting.

The only perceived threat I see to RE development RD&T is the lowering of prices of traditional fuels (petro, coal, gas(fracking anyone?), U238, etc). I am waiting! Chuckle. Any ones utility bills gone down lately?

Your utility-electrical power bills will go down when you buy your own system and put it next to or on your home. ZERO GRID.

Let me add here:low KW Advanced Compound Systems go from apx 8 cubic feet to 1000ftcu (depends if they are Horizontal or Vertical axis types, towered or not and/or have compound solar PVs and power storage). The small apartment-balcony types are apx 30 lbs, 4ft high and 18inches in diameter if Savonius (omnidirectional)type(ACS). Prop types are apx 24 inch dia with over the rail mounts. Most for LED lighting & alarms. Portable too. Good for camping.

Early costs out-look appears to be $500(for low-watt types)on up to $10,000 for whole home KW systems. Mean-time-between-failures(MTBF) designed for are 10years minimal, 20 max(technology change out time). Lease-purchase-warranty appears to be sales model developing.

OVER RIDING ALL: one must have RE (sun, wind or moving water). We had to develop public use Re data loggers one could take home and thus determine:what RE energy levels you do have. The reason for this are:expectations are way too high for RE. This provides a reality check. Another Patent! Chuckle
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 23, 2011
Hi:

Don't kid yourselves... look at the Alberta sands line being pushed by the usual entities:
TreeHugger post:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/06/environmental-leaders-call-civil-disobedience-stop-keystone-xl-tar-sands-pipeline.php?campaign=top_news?campaign=TH_rotator

Here in PA, the new Governor is basically killing the whole solar program. When it runs out (late year) that's it. He is all Marcellus Shale money hungry...

To hell with water quality lets just get that great gas money while it lasts.....

.....Bill
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 23, 2011
WindSolar,
Just wait until the general public figures out how much subsidy there has been to the fossil fuel industries. When that starts to go away, I predict in a decade it will be hard to sell a house or a car that doesn't make 'energy sense'.

As for our utility companies: Watch Boulder,Colorado & Portland,OR & Marin Clean Energy & Cape Light Compact (Cape Cod) change the game. All of them are becoming their own utility, BECAUSE THEIR PRESENT UTILITY WON'T GO GREEN FAST ENOUGH.In America the green movement will come from the bottom up. We don't have a national energy plan...yet. In Germany & the Neth. the gov't represents the people desires, so they are going green fast. (bottom up AND top down) Did anyone notice that this week a European oil co. (Total) just bought 60% of an American PV manufacturing firm? Where do you think those panels will be installed?

WE NEED FEED-IN-TARIFFS PEOPLE ! it works
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 23, 2011
Phil and Steve, you both are right on. The vested powers do not support RE. I have been to Germany&Netherlands. Their RE programs are great. Interesting in that Germany is roughly 50+ degrees North latitude and the Netherlands has large natural gas reserves in their northern area too. Both have sustainable RE public policies and supportable academic RD&T institutions.

The intrenched interests in the US will fail as did the car industry, because their power systems are so very wasteful.

We simply can not afford coal plants that are 35%efficient(Is that ever an oxymoron?)AND power grids that consume 15% to 30%
of the power transmitted by them. It is outrageous that one would consider a wire grid many hundreds of miles long.

If the power were created on your home, the grid loss might get up to 3% and be as little as 1% No large grid failure modes either(like the current wild fires threatening the Tuscon grid)

Lost in all of this is the fact that ON-THE-HOME RE systems creates no waste. NO CO2 either. No pollution. No radioactive waste.

The limiting factor of the ON-THE-HOME RE is that it requires a power storage system. Here we are seeing great strides being made in batteries of all types, pneumatic, hydro, mechanical and chemical storage systems.

ON-THE-HOME systems can also be factored into the electrical powered vehicle, bike, mower, cart, garden tractor, ATVs, and hand tools of all makes and kinds. Imagine every home being a fueling station. I do think that is going to happen. I think however it will take some 4 to 5 years to get this all in place.

A few years from now I also feel an adjunct to the above will be that every parking spot will become an outlet. We will see a self-driven market decrease the petro needs we now have. I give this 10 years.

In a recent University lecture I gave, many of the engineering students there were already looking at these matters.

This is a great time for RE. Its all about economics. RE is economical
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 23, 2011
Remember that when NASA invented PV solar panels (in the 60's) they cost $1600/watt. As recently as 5 years ago it was still about $5/watt. Well thanks to the big push by Germany & China we're talking $1.40-1.50/watt. At $1/watt, only dinosaurs will consider digging up and burning coal.BUT, we should be changing laws so that every watt you produce and send into the grid, you can earn as much as the watt that you consume from the grid: $1=$1. Did you notice that TOTAL PETROLEUM (European firm)just spent $1.38BIllion buying 60% of a solar PV (American) manufacturing firm? It's time to create solar jobs here in America. Not just running the houses of a few forward thinking rich people. We should plan on most houses, most retail, most cars, most public lighting all run off of the sun. The USA is about 4% of the worlds population using about 25% of the worlds fossil fuel. We have the oppurtunity to change the world. We do live in interesting times.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
June 23, 2011
It seems that looking close at ROI comparing to old conventions misses some points. There are so many non-hidden externalities that the Ute's have duped the public into paying. I say non-hidden because if one looks closer, they may find them in plain view. (This view is from the book "If You Meet the Budda On the Road, Kill Him"). Medical and environmental costs are subtle and deeply entrenched, and using the world as a free garbage can for profit wastes is screwing everyone who breathes, eats, and drinks. If the ROI is more accurately reflective, the move to solar heating and PV is immediately profitable on many levels, with increasing improvements ongoing into the future. The wealthier leveraged societies have merely made these costs even more obscure to further increase the benefit to themselves in their jaded vision.
Wall street investment companies fear "distributed RE" as a real threat to their profit stream as well as the need for military support of conventional conflict situations brought about by "energy lack" policy distortions.
The lack of consistant info from regulating and educational entities keeps the masses in doubt about the truth. Perhaps a third political party is needed.
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
Ronald Barrett, Pres. EWEI
June 23, 2011
Big government, big banks, big grids, big handouts to big corporations are as we all know, wasteful and have created our big national debt.

Because of the above, as Mary-Saunders expressed, the masses of us in the market are indeed, "UN-COUPLING." This is seen in the grass roots effort to put Renewable Energy (RE) systems, on one's own home and OFF-THE-GRID. It is happening.

New start up companies are right now accomplishing pre-production type Advanced Compound RE systems. These will be REs you will own: "ON-THE-HOME - OFF-THE-GRID."

These systems are economically feasible;much cheaper than we thought, US Intellectually Property (patent)protected by International Agreements (so the Chinese can not steal these products), and fully Similitude-scalable (can go from a few watts to apx 20KW).

In the end, the bottom line is you will 100% own these ON-YOUR-HOME RE systems. Not possible using large central power systems. Even worse using long haul(wasteful)grids.

Rather expensive 'now' compound systems of solar+wind cash out ROI at apx the 20-year point.

RE 'current new' Advanced Compound systems are seeing ROI 10-year point cash outs.

RD&T pre-manufacturing prototypes are in the works that indicated a 5-year ROI cash out (paid off) Advanced Compound systems are possible.

Without disclosing my RE company, which is now two years old, on its tenth-model ACS, I can tell you (maybe not done by us) someone soon, will be going into full production. Then the market place will decide which is the best way to go. Remember the giant IBM centralized computers? Then Apple desk top computers came into the market!

Welllll hereeeee comes the RE Apples!

And they will be "ON-YOUR-HOME, OFF-THE-GRID." And you will own it.

Next year this discussion will be a mote point.
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 22, 2011
Mary S,
I think the tipping point is getting here sooner than we may think. We should thank the Germans and Chinese for that. They are taking the energy issue more seriously and leading the world in PV production and installations.Now that the price is down, the rest of the world should hop on board, and get the price really low. And some utility co. are getting the message. Sure hope the future gets here soon.
Mary Saunders
Mary Saunders
June 22, 2011
It seems to me that distributed is just going to chug along under the radar and unreported on until it hits the tipping point.

I know people in Oregon who did not believe Oregon grass roots could stop FERC and its friends from putting LNG everywhere, even though one of Oregon's own consultants said a facility would be obsolete before it could be completed.

Nonetheless, some of the projects have been stopped. They keep trying, but push-back keeps happening.

In the meantime, at least some figures from major utilities are acknowledging in public that de-coupling is coming.

It seems like crazy cronies are always going to win, until they don't.
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 22, 2011
"A major variable is whether government decides that this is a National Security issue and influences that choice via tax / incentives."
Don, remember "we the people" are the government.....

Doug, how ignorant....if space didn't exist...neither would you...
Douglas Prince
Douglas Prince
June 22, 2011
The article's title is a little misleading. This isn't so much a debate on large vs small scale, as it is a rant against FERC handouts.
"Hey, there's a government agency handing out taxpayer money to large corporations!" Big deal, get in fucking line. When did that NOT happen?
Look, the fact is if we're talking strictly solar, then yes, it will have to be a combination of distributed small scale and concentrated utility scale generation. The hard facts can't deny it. Out here in the Southwest, we have plenty of space and plenty of rooftops for distributed small scale. But once you start talking metropolitan areas, like Chicago, small scale simply won't work. Besides limited roof space in comparison with population size (consider your average apartment building), you have these HUGE freakin' shadows from the buildings falling everywhere. In this sense, large utility scale operations on the fringe of the metro area would be the primary electrical feed.
Enough with the knee-jerk reactions. And title your articles better, you yahoo.
Steve Poppitz
Steve Poppitz
June 22, 2011
How could we really listen to a federal agency for guidance on energy? We don't even have a federal energy plan. Because of lack of leadership on this VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE, we are running way behind on the world stage of new clean energy. We could do it. But, as a society we haven't decided yet that energy is a top priority.In the foreseeable future I expect to see leadership at the state and local (and yes individual) level. When I voted for our president I expected a lot of change on this issue. How is that Exxon stock doing? How is our national energy / climate legislation going?
Chas Marischen
Chas Marischen
June 22, 2011
Cost will come down "when", a person can go to Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, Target or Menards and buy a 250 watt turn-key unit. When that "Economy-of-scale" kicks in prices will significantly drop.
If the auto industry was at the production level as solar, the "average" car would cost over $100,000.
Don Madden
Don Madden
June 22, 2011
In the real world it comes down to "who is going to pay."
If "big energy" is sees the financial value in Renewable Energy, they will invest. If not it will be up to "the market" to decide whether to go Renewable or not.

A major variable is whether government decides that this is a National Security issue and influences that choice via tax / incentives.

Don Madden
www.tarafinance.com
Thomas M
Thomas M
June 21, 2011
F*** ERC, we should all know by now listening to those who don't care about the planet or it's people, flora or fauna is just a road to ruin. I don't need some federal agency to tell me what is right or what to do in order to save a little money. Just think of all the money spent on developing the agency and what that money could do in the hands of the people who gave it to them in the first place. If you've been paying attention, agencies and incentive programs have come and gone. When are you going to wake up and realize all they are doing is raping the public on both ends. Big solar, little solar, who cares. Install a system that benefits you and your needs, not theirs.

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John Farrell

John Farrell

John Farrell directs the Energy Self-Reliant States and Communities program at ILSR and he focuses on energy policy developments that best expand the benefits of local ownership and dispersed generation of renewable energy. His latest paper,...
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