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Wall Street's Irrational, Dangerous Hatred of Solar Stocks

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29 Reader Comments
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Comment
1 of 29
Anonymous
June 23, 2011
Germany and China are producing and selling photovoltaic panels like there is no tomorrow. In Fact, China being the factory of the world hasn't been able to keep up with the demand.

The stock market as you know is made up of investors, who really only care about is a return of profit. Even if their lives depended upon clean energy, as it does in the long term, they wouldn't invest in it, because clean energy isn't going to be profitable when you realize solar energy is free, nobody can charge for the sunlight, just as the wind or wave energy. But if you control oil, a dirty energy, you can restrict the quantity and increase the demand, thus which has been going on for a long period of time.

Imagine a gravity machine that produces all the electrical energy for free, for the next millennium and then some. This SCARES the bankers, investors and Rothschilds of the world.

Clean energy means freedom, as nobody needs to buy dirty energy from them. Imagine every home selling back clean energy, then why would you need a dirty energy power station at all?

If in India, China or the U.S., each citizen was to share their surplus of clean energy, your talking about 2.8 billion times the amount of electrical energy generated here.

Then you would have an ascendency of clean sustainable energy. However, if you had a shortage of dirty energy, even if it was artificially driven, you could inflate the cost, insuring record history profits earned.

Even the farmers know this. No farmers wants to grow more food then what the market is willing to buy. Producing more food than what the market is wiling to by means less profit earned.

The solution is to reform the economy, so its NOT based upon the idea of protecting the wealthy, but rather to advance society as a whole.

It's why the wealthy created intellectual property restrictions, like patents, to keep their monopolies in power by holding back society.
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2 of 29
Anonymous
June 24, 2011
Any investor that follows the rationale in this article will be broke in short order. I think it was Buffet who said, Stocks are measuring instruments in the long term and voting instruments in the short term. Any industry that relies heavily on Government subsidies to survive will not win a trader's popularity contest. Clee makes a great point, if a company is making money and is undervalued then it probably is a good LONG TERM buy and big short position is like rocket fuel once the buying picks up.
The author makes a rookie investor's mistake in that he confuses the stock with the company. They are not the same thing.
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3 of 29
June 24, 2011
As the Chief engineer of a start-up wind-turbine manufacturer in the USA I lead the RD&T effort of our company. Over the past two years we determined:Wind-RE is fine, but Solar-RE is even finer! The RD&T in RE is going on at a furious rate.

We ourselves have never had a penny of government assistance, nor do we need it. We have ZERO debt and have funds in the bank. We are 100% self financed. The market for Renewable Energy is doing great. We intend to go into mass production on our own, here in the USA:Thank you.

Remember Wall Street is populated by the elite East Coast Business MBAs who gave us the failed banking system and wrecked our economy. DUH! Aided and pimped by the Wall Street media frauds. Does any one expect these scientific and technically ignorant scammers to understand the Renewable Energy Enterprise and true hard working innovators.

I think NOT!

(Yeah for Solar!)
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4 of 29
Anonymous
June 24, 2011
Wind Solar, you completely miss my point. You wouldn't sell much product without Governments subsidizing your customer's purchase. My comment is not about the merits of clean energy technology or even clean energy companies. My comment is about investing. The financial landscape is littered with the corpses of what looked like good companies with great ideas. I sincerely hope clean energy supplants dirty energy sooner rather than later but hope is not an effective investment strategy. If supporters of clean energy invest with their head instead of their heart they just might actually have some money to put solar panels on their roof or a wind turbine in their yard.
Comment
5 of 29
June 24, 2011
Anonymous, I may have missed the point, especially about investments, but it is erroneous to state, one needs 'Government subsidizing' customer's purchases. We have had folks drive in and try to buy prototypes!

We have done no advertising and keep quiet as we are deep in RD&T and IP-patent work.

Yet word & mouth brings people to our doors. A number of businesses have even offered to buy...yet unfinished systems. Gads!

We see absolutely no need for any type of government subsidy. That is a big-system-company mind set. Our Advanced Compound Systems(ACSs) are residential:"ON-THE-HOME:OFF-THE-GRID." ROI aimed at 5 to 10 years. MTBF design 10 years to 20(max).

Know any one else with ZERO-debt & money in the bank doing this? Bet they are a small company like us. This would never be so with a large company:They'd need a government subsidy!
Chuckle. That all equals more government debt! Yep you and I footing their bills.

Do I expect this all to change? Nope.

Ever see the red-tape of a DOE/EERE ARPA type agreement package? Talk about wasting your time. Better to stay focused, work hard, innovate and produce!
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6 of 29
Anonymous
June 24, 2011
An interesting article. The dastardly, self-seeking criminals that infest Wall St. have no interest in supporting alternative energy or global warming. They are only interested in lining their own pockets during their short tenure on this earth, at the expense of the rest of the population. To them oil is still their ticket to riches.

There can be no peace in the USA until these people are removed and "dealt with." It's not going to happen because the mega-wealthy are all well connected and pay our politicians for services rendered. Like the Mafia, it's a self-perpetuating system.

The population needs to wake up. I wish we could see an almost 0% turnout at the next election. Perhaps then they will get the message. More likely, of course, there will be all the usual massive and expensive hype, lies, fake promises and a dumb electorate falling for it all over again. The politicians know all this of course and the winner will again be smirking all the way to the White House to oversee another 4 years of raping the country. RIP USA.
Comment
7 of 29
June 24, 2011
GREED! You can bank on it. If it doesn't have a high ROI then they go elsewhere. People who are in the stock market for the long haul would be more inclined to invest in products & companies they believe in and that includes us.
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8 of 29
Anonymous
June 24, 2011
I don't expect the NYSE to last much longer in its current form. At some stage the bailouts will stop, and then it will just be a bunch of buzzards sitting on a pot of oil with everyone fighting and haggling over the last drops. With the exception of my IRA, i am completely out of the stock market. It's quite clear that my retirement will bear little resemblance to that of my parents...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezN3hEohz9w
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9 of 29
kwh
June 24, 2011
LDK is one of the most highly leveraged companies in the Semiconductors industry and has a Debt to Total Capital ratio of 68.32%. Additionally, the percentage of debt used in its capital structure grew this year.
Comment
10 of 29
June 24, 2011
Anonymous, I could not agree with you more. Right on. I encourage all to just not vote in Federal elections. Voteing only encourages those politicos and they are owned by the big companies. I might add, so is our once independent Supreme Court.
Look at Uncle Monsanto-Thomas and his votes.

Let's form up and go to a Social Network systems:Wherein we can really "all" vote.

Well back to RE. In the end I do have faith that the people will vote with their pocket books and if we in RE do honest good work, present a not too greedy price point, and back up our products we will prevail. Anyway we are going to give it a hell of a go. I'd hate to think those thieves on Wall Street are right.
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11 of 29
kwh
June 24, 2011
Though the industry is experiencing positive sales growth as a whole, LDK has been unable to grow sales and is losing market share. This reverses the trend from the previous year when sales growth at LDK led the industry 120.50% to 21.89%, respectively.

Only 2010 was profitable.

Say what?
Comment
12 of 29
June 24, 2011
The entire article sounds great, but it could be believable if we thought the author could multiply, or maybe read his own article before posting it. I refer only to the few paragraphs copied below for easy reference.

2.7 Bbl x 1700 kWh/bl = 4.59x 10**12 kWh =4.59x10**6 GWh
How he got 49,500 GWh I don't know, off by a factor of 11/1000, or 0.011?????

1 square km of solar panels will 'see' 1000 million peak watts in a site like Saudi Arabia.
At 30% efficiency for 2500 hours/year (28% capacity factor) this produces 750 watt hours/sqm/peak watt/year, or 750 GWh/square kilometer/year. Then 30 sq km will produce 22,500 GWh. It may be fair to reduce this by a factor of 2 for cosine effects if the panels are laid flat in contact. However, it is still a very long ways from the 1.0 GWh the author Jabusch quotes.

He then proceeds to compare his ridiculous result with the land area of Saudi Arabia, which he quotes as 2.218 sq km, or about 0.8 square mile, 510 acres!!!!!!!!

And what other mistakes has he made?????????I didn't bother to look further!

copied from article.

"As I discussed in my previous post, "Saudi Arabia exports about 2.7 billion barrels of oil per year, each containing the equivalent of 1,700 Kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity for a total of 4.59 × 10**12 kWh [or 49,500 GWh] per year, or the equal of about one quarter or the world's annual electricity demand."

"Using a standard PV average of 30 square kilometers per gigawatt hour (GWh) year, this means the Saudis would need 1.377 million km2 of solar panels to achieve their goal solely with PV. This is well over half the country's total size of 2.218 km2!"
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13 of 29
Anonymous
June 24, 2011
*Sigh* Really lorin-vant-hull-16482?,
Is it really appropriate to pick-apart the technical details of this article like that? I think we all know the author's thesis is correct. (Granted he could have used some more technically inclined copy editors)
But we're talkin' cave man time here. Splitting hairs is for engineers, and well-endowed pedants, not writers that broach one of the most salient and taboo topics of our time.
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14 of 29
Anonymous
June 28, 2011
What I got from the article was that the author doesn't understand why Solar stocks are valued so poorly when 1) they are performing well, and 2) oil supply is shaky, which should indicate a positive long-term outlook. Accepting those to be true would make one think that these stocks should be performing better on the market. I believe his thesis was that there seems to be a bias against these stocks on Wall Street.
Comment
15 of 29
June 28, 2011
Saudi calcs are flawed. Assume oil exports are equivalent to 4.59 mega-GWh - not even a good equivalence as the efficiency of converting oil into energy is variable and generally poor. On average, Saudi gets ~6.1 kWh/m^2/day or 356 kWh/m^2/year. In order to harvest that effectively, you need trackers and trackers need a clear zone in order to prevent shadowing: at that latitude, reduce the aperture to ~50%. 1 square km might produce something like 30 GWh/y using good flat plate modules or 44 GWh/y with concentrators. 4.59 mega-GWh == <153,000 km^2 OR 7% of the land mass. Of course, such a project wouldn't happen overnight and efficiency of solar power will go up over time reducing the requirement. But, this represents a VALUE ADD for the Saudis as compared to oil: they wouldn't have to ship anything close to the energy equivalent of oil to earn the same revenue. Some have complained about distance to the customer - if one compares the required network to that deployed by Quebec Hydro, one can see that the required distance is very manageable.
Solar companies have peculiar and perhaps intimidating performance. They produce a product where input costs and manufacturing costs are plunging, selling prices are plunging yet revenues are increasing throughout the value stream. As one can expect, companies that are growing very rapidly are heavily leveraged - this is exacerbated by the reluctance of the market to invest in these companies leaving borrowing as the main way to fund growth.
One can also see from some of the comments that solar, being a new technology, has more than its share of Ludite detractors. Incentives are often called out - ignoring the fact that every part of the energy industry is incentivized, many areas much more than solar. Solar is sensitive to government policies, but then so is everything else. Germany is forcing nukes out of business,Ontario is canning coal, Obama is setting new fuel economy targets for vehicles to drive down demand for oil.
Comment
16 of 29
June 28, 2011
Solar, Wind and Geothermal Renewable Energy all produce Electricity. Oil is used predominantly as a transportation fuel and produces less than 1 percent of U.S. electricity. The scenario of Renewable Energy reducing dependence on foreign oil would be feasible if many of the United States' 250 million automobiles were electric. I tend to be skeptical when oil and solar are compared in the same article.

I am an Investor and not a Promoter and don't make decisions based on the present but look to the future and what has happened in the past. From my perspective I see falling prices due to innovation and looming over capacity from low cost producers such as China. Common sense and simple math will tell you that once RPS standards are met, the PV business will transition from installation to maintenance. In Spain roughly 90% closed their doors. Since business decisions involves an insight into the future and subject to Government policy changes, it will be interesting to see who takes the bath.
Comment
17 of 29
June 28, 2011
Hey USA ... it's not all about you, although given your energy use, maybe it is. Lots of other places with less coal and natural gas have to find other things to burn into electricity. Come to think of it, Hawaii and Alaska may not be so independent of oil either.
I think you can compare oil to solar as electricity is the transmission fluid of the future. Actually, in many ships and all US railways, it has been for a long time.
Of course, the solar industry has been 'oversupplied' for years and years, and yet it continues to grow. Generally, cheaper means more market demand - it is very difficult for players who are constantly competing prices down to create persistent oversupply. This is a bogey man that at one time or another has been used to crush significant US industries (take rare earths as an example)- as the author implies, this is dangerous thinking. If anything,Chinese and, more recently, Korean investors choose to differ and will probably end up eating your lunch.
Comment
18 of 29
June 28, 2011
MorganStanley is reported to have lost $24.1 million investing in Albuquerque Eclipse aviation.

MS VP told me that large scale solar generation of electricity is a fraud. That statement, in part, cause us to investigate.

Tuesday June 28, 2011 10:47

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/pnmrate.htm#first1

info@firstsolar.com

Hello First Solar,

Solar arrays seen in person at the PNM Reeves and Los Lunas, NM sites prompts enquiry in our role as intervenor movants in New Mexico PRC Case No. 11-00123-UT .

1 What are panel length, width and thicknesses in inches?

2 What is the weight?

3 What is the part number?

4 What is the retail price?

5 What is the open circuit voltage as a function of insolation?

6 What is current and voltage as a function of resistive loads and insolation?

7 Assuming the formulas

Heat Rate (Energy Efficiency)

Overall thermal performance or energy efficiency for a power plant for a period can be defined as

fhr = H / E (1)

where

fhr = heat rate (Btu/kW, kJ/kW)

H = heat supplied to the power plant for a period (Btu, kJ)

E = energy output from the power plant in the period (kWh)

are correct, what is the energy efficiency of First Solar panels used in PNM arrays as a function of insolation?

If First Solar feels that the above equations do not apply, then please explain.

Please ack if you receive this email.

Thanks in advance.

bill
Comment
19 of 29
June 28, 2011
Airlines are not good investments when fuel prices are volatile. (I'm frustrated explaining the concept of a finite resource to people. Either you get it or you don't [and when it runs out, no-one gets it])

First Solar is the only module manufacturer i've seen without readily available, downloadable, module spec sheets on their website. i probably wouldn't invest in them first either.

Then again, I'm not a stock analyst.
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20 of 29
Anonymous
June 28, 2011
Sam, First Solar has a somewhat different proposition than most other solar companies: to paraphrase, they sell 'energy not watts'. I suppose that means they sell solar installations and not modules - kind of like how a roofer sells you a new roof, not shingles and flashing (you don't need to know the size of the shingles). I've never seen one of their contracts but, if they're selling energy not watts, they likely sign up to so many kWh per unit cost as opposed to cost per watt(peak) where your milage may vary and you have to collect the data and do the math to see what the business case is. This is a somewhat unique approach that even purveyors of traditional thermal and nuclear power plants shy away from.
Comment
21 of 29
June 28, 2011
It's interesting that investors shy away from propositions that take effort to understand while flocking to derivatives that no-one understands. There are investments that are complex and/or volatile where risk is magnified out of proportion and other investments that are so obscure that risk is imperceptible. Maybe after the third incarnation of asset-backed paper going down in flames, things will change.
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22 of 29
June 28, 2011
righton GeraldR,

Thanks for the clarification anonymous,
I only mentioned that about First Solar because an earlier comment (asking simple questions about module specifications) prompted me to look for a spec sheet on their website. And, i was surprised to see how much they market their company as an investment, rather than the products they make to the people that buy and use them.
Don't get me wrong, amorphous cell are clearly the future of pv technology. As a residential/small commercial installer, i'm simply less likely to invest in their company by buying their product.
Comment
23 of 29
June 29, 2011
Post '(you don't need to know the size of the shingles). ' may be profound for this reason?

fast neutron
Santa Fe, NM
January 12, 2009

From actual experience, wind farms produce 1.2 watts per square meter. Solar Thermal and Photovoltaic methods capture 5 to 6 watts per square meter. There is no economy of size in either technology. Dividing the watts you need by those values gives the land area in square meters needed to produce the juice. The numbers are astronomical

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/santa-fe-new-mexican/T0QVJ5UD3R25C8HRL
Comment
24 of 29
June 29, 2011
Billp - you're of by nearly orders of magnitude. Plate solar can easily produce 140 W per square meter at '1 sun' with high end modules at something like 170 W. When mounted on trackers, extra space is needed to minimize shading early and late in the day (typically, retrograde motion is used near the ends of the day to keep this spacing from getting overly large). But note, the '1 sun' (1 kW/m^2) that is used to rate module capacity is a somewhat arbitrary standard based on an estimate of mid latitude, mid-year, sea-level, average atmospheric condition. Actual irradiation is higher near the equator, in very dry climates, with low air pollution, time of year (and hemisphere) and/or at high altitude. The maximum potential (top of atmosphere) is 40% higher. Similarly, PTC is an arbitrary condition. Module efficiency also depends on ambient temperature and windspeed.
Your wind farm number is off although wind farms are harder to measure as they need large set-backs for sound abatement so one question is whether the buffer zone (possibly a corn field) is included in the land use calculation or not. Obviously, larger wind farms are more effective in that respect based on perimeter to area ratio. Still harder to calculate is the land use of off-shore wind farms. Based on some data, wind farms have approximately 10 times the energy density in kWh/Y/hectare that hydroelectric projects although that is a somewhat slanted view as many hydroelectric projects are multifunction - not solely dedicated to power generation.
A farmer in my area has several 9.6 kW arrays on trackers. The concrete bases occupy ~6 m^2; goats occupy the surrounding space. That would be 1600 kW per m^2 of land use.
Comment
25 of 29
June 29, 2011
GeraldR. Not me. I made no statements.

Maybe Fast Neutron is off.

Here's a link to my measurements made on 5 watt Harbor Freight solar panel.

http://www.prosefights.org/scriptpollute/area/area.htm

Purpose was to check Fast Neutron's statement about solar.

And to evaluate solar proposal I received.

http://home.comcast.net/~bpayne37/solar/loslunassolar/loslunassolar.htm
Comment
26 of 29
June 29, 2011
"Billp - you're of by nearly orders of magnitude."

Again, not me.

This is me.

Wednesday June 29, 2011 11:19

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/pnmrate.htm#shannauer


ashley.shannauer@state.nm.us

Hello Ms Shannauer,

Movant and lawyer Mr McCoy suggested

I think probably a motion with the hearing officer for discovery is necessary unless a schedule has already been set. Send an email to whoever is the HO and ask if there is discovery ongoing or if it will be scheduled. Otherwise they will probably try to dodge the questions as proprietary or something.

1 Is discovery ongoing in Case No. 11-00123-UT?

2 If discovery is not yet scheduled, is discovery planned?

3 If discovery is planned, then when will it be scheduled?

If discovery is ongoing, then we ask that we be provided all discovery documents either by mail or email.

We started discovery.

Tuesday June 28, 2011 10:47

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/pnmrate.htm#first1


and will copy those who are on email distribution.

I am guessing at your email address so please send an ack so that I will know you received this.

Previous email to do did not 'bounce' but you did not acknowledge receipt of it.

Thanks in advance.

bill
Comment
27 of 29
June 30, 2011
GreenGas.cc is 50 cents a liter and zero emissions. US DOE predicts 90% of vehicles sold in 2050 will still be internal combustion. Scientific American says peak 2014. What fuel are you going to use? Unless GreenNH3 gets some investment we are screwed.
Comment
28 of 29
June 30, 2011
MorganStandley/SmithBarney audio recorded Thursday June 30, 2011 discusses short selling mechanics, insider trading and FIRST SOLAR.

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/firstsolar/110630_001.mp3

Randall IS NOT the Morgan/Stanley VP who told me that large-scale solar generation of electricity is a fraud.

First Solar has not acknowledged receipt of email questions as yet
Comment
29 of 29
June 30, 2011
This link is about making money from energy investors.

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/firstsolar/110630_003.mp3

Not good, we think.
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Garvin Jabusch

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About: Before co-founding Green Alpha Advisors, Garvin was the Director of Forward Sustainable Investments, a business unit of Forward Management, LLC. There his dutie... more »

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