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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? Click Here to Register! ×

The Rise of Concentrating Solar Thermal Power

Ucilia Wang, Contributing Editor
June 06, 2011  |  58 Comments

With big government help, a solar thermal power (CSP) technology boom seems to be coming in the United States. Regulators have issued permits for about a dozen power plant projects and construction is underway for a few. But the three main challenges for building a project – permits, finance and technology -- remain big concerns for technology and project developers.

You can say those three hurdles will always remain and not just for CSP, which uses reflectors to concentrate and beam sunlight toward a receiver for producing steam, which then goes to powering turbine-generators for producing electricity. But the three issues have evolved in a marketplace that also has changed in the last few years. Photovoltaic panels have become far cheaper than expected, prompting solar thermal power companies such as Solar Trust of America and SolarReserve to start developing PV projects.

Concentrating photovoltaic (CPV) technology is attracting buyers, and that’s going to spark competition between CPV and CSP for optimal project sites. Both technologies work best in super sunny locals without much clouds – they both use reflectors to concentrate sunlight, and those optics don’t do well with diffused light.

CSP technology developers know competition will only grow more fierce. To win customers, they are improving efficiencies of their equipment to turn sunlight into electricity and adding storage to make a CSP project operate more like a fossil-fuel power plant. The U.S. Department of Energy, in addition to funding power plant projects, also has directed its researchers to explore similar technology issues.

“Our research includes the development of new heat-storage materials that are stable at high temperatures and methods that maximize the thermal energy storage capacity at low costs,” said Cliff Ho, a scientist at the Sandia National Laboratory.

The CSP market so far has a bright future. About 17.54 GW of power projects are under development worldwide, and the United States leads with about 8.67 GW, according to GTM Research. Spain ranks second with 4.46 GW, followed by China with 2.5 GW. 

About 1.17 gigawatts of CSP power plants already are online. Spain is home to 582 megawatts of them, followed by the United States with 507 megawatts. Iran, interesting, takes the third place with 62 megawatts, GTM said.

Front Runners

Major CSP players share similar profiles: they are staffed with experts in power plant engineering, sometimes specifically in CSP plant designs. They also are able to raise the capital to finance research and development and power plant construction. Some of them already have built projects in Spain, where feed-in tariffs provide a sure-source of incomes and an incentive to use energy storage to boost production. These project developers include Solar Millennium, BrightSource Energy, Abengoa Solar, Penglai Electric, Renovalia and NextEra Energy. Solar Millennium, by the way, is part owner of Solar Trust of America, which focuses on U.S. projects.

Although the United States has no feed-in tariffs, which are government-set wholesale electricity pricing designed to guarantee good returns, certain state policies have attracted a cadre of developers. They have flocked mostly to the southwestern region, which offers a combination of sunny climate, state mandates for renewable energy use, and public land that is available for energy development leases.

California, a state that recently passed a law that requires utilities to get 33 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2020, has been a magnet. So have Arizona, Nevada and Colorado. The California Energy Commission alone approved nine CPS projects totaling more than 4.1 gigawatts within a four-month period last year. The federal Bureau of Land Management, which also signed off on many of these California projects, approved additional projects in Nevada. One of Abengoa’s key projects, 280-megawatts Solana, will be built on private land in Arizona.

Winning permits only clears one major obstacle for these developers. Raising money is another. Without feed-in tariffs, these CSP projects must compete more on cost in order to win power sales contracts from utilities. As a result, the projects are all more than 100 megawatts in order to reach an economy of scale that keeps the construction and operating costs down. Solar Trust of America is working on the 1,000-megawatt Blythe Solar Project in California, but that project is divided into four power plants of 250 megawatts each.

The need for scale also leads to a high price tag for the overall cost of each project. Many developers applied to a federal loan guarantee program that sprung from the stimulus package in 2009. Nailing that loan guarantees was critical for all these companies who wanted to build their first CSP power plant in the United States. They also had to be able to raise equity for the project because the loan guarantee, which paves the way for the recipients to get loans from the Treasury-run Federal Financing Bank, will at most cover 80 percent of a project’s cost.

The U.S. Department of Energy, which oversees the loan program, has been fond of CSP. It has offer a total of roughly $5.89 billion to four projects; that’s more money and more projects than what the DOE has offered to developers of photovoltaic or concentrating photovoltaic power plants. Solar Trust is set to get about $2.11 billion to build half of Blythe; SolarReserve is finalizing the paperwork for $737 million for the 100-megawatt Crescent Dunes  Solar Energy Project ; BrightSource closed $1.6 billion for the 392-megawatt Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System; and Abengoa closed about $1.45 billion for Solana.

SolarReserve is waiting for word about its loan guarantee application for another, 150-megawatt project called Rice Solar Energy Project in California, said Tom Georgis, senior vice president of development at SolarReserve.

The loan guarantee program is set to end this Sept. 30. Solar companies would like to see it get more funding. But it’s unclear how likely that will happen, considering that lawmakers and the White House are sparring over what to cut in next year’s budget. Solar industry lobbyists also hope to save a program run by the Treasury Department that covers 30 percent of the cost of a project. CEO of Solar Trust, Uwe T. Schmidt, said his company is mindful that federal funding won’t always been plentiful, and he hinted at the company’s efforts to find other sources of funding.

“We are looking for innovative ways to complement the traditional debt and equity structure,” Schmidt said. “You will see examples of what we mean.”

Key Technologies

Power plant designs that use parabolic trough reflectors and power-tower receivers are the most popular. Solar Millennium and Abengoa Solar are primarily devotees of parabolic trough technology while BrightSource concentrates on the power-tower design. The parabolic trough design features rows of connected reflectors that focus the sunlight onto tubes that run along the length of the reflectors. These tubes contain synthetic oil that flows to a heat exchanger to heat water and produce high-pressure steam. The steam then powers a turbine, which in turn runs a generator to produce electricity.

Parabolic trough power plant developers such as Solar Trust and Abengoa like to call this type of technology “proven” because a series of parabolic trough power plants totaling 354 megawatts materialized in California between 1984 and 1990. But today’s parabolic trough designs are quite different than those from two decades ago. NextEra owns 310 megawatts of this cluster of CSP plants in California. The company also is developing a 250-megawatt, Genesis Solar project in California, for which it has received the construction permit from the California Energy Commission. The largest CSP power plant proposal is the 1,000-megawatt Blythe project by Solar Trust.

Another CSP technology uses a central tower instead of tubes as the receiver. A field of reflectors beams the light to the top of the tower, where a tank of water or molten salt sits. The heated fluid then goes through the similar steps for steam generation and electricity production. BrightSource and SolarReserve both are betting on the success of this technology; BrightSource uses water while SolarReserve uses molten salt. The salt, which keeps heat trapped for hours, can be used for electricity generation after the sun goes down.

Stirling engines make up the third common CSP technology and, unlike parabolic trough and power tower setups, each Stirling engine embodies both the thermal and electric generation mechanisms and uses gas rather than fluid to transfer the sun’s heat. Main components of a Stirling engine include a giant round dish of reflectors that concentrate the sunlight to heat up hydrogen gas or helium inside an engine. The heat gas expands and creates a lot of pressure that is then used to run the piston that then drives the generator to produce electricity. Stirling engine companies include Infinia and Stirling Engine Systems (SES).

Stirling engines from SES seemed close to being deployed commercially by Tessera Solar until Tessera had a hard time raising the necessary financing and sold its two prized projects late last year and earlier this year. One of the buyers, K Road Power, said it will still use Stirling engines but only for a small portion of the Calico project; the rest will use solar panels. Tessera sold Calico as an 850-megawatt project because the project came with an electric grid interconnection agreement for 850 megawatts. But the California Energy Commission cut the size to 663.5 megawatts before issuing the permit, and the commission said the application from K Road to modify the permit in order to use solar panels does not request any change to the size of the project.

The second buyer, AES Solar, told the commission that it wasn't going to use Stirling engines at all for the 709-MW Imperial Valley Solar Project and will use some sort of PV technology instead. But the company then notified the commission last week that it still wanted to hold on to the permit for the solar thermal power plant, so it remains unclear what the company plans to do. AES declined to comment for the story.

Which Works Best

Developers of different technologies will tell you one type is better than the other. There are indeed advantages and room for improvements for all three, Ho said. Temperatures that these technologies can achieve when heating up the heat transfer fluid in the receiver, reflectivity of the reflectors, as well as the sunlight-to-electric conversion efficiencies are some of the metrics.

Parabolic trough plants generally heat the heat transfer fluid to about 390 degrees Celsius, which is lower than the temperatures from power tower plants and Stirling engines, Ho said. Power tower designs can achieve around 550 degrees Celsius and higher. Running a steam turbine at a higher temperature improves its efficiency. The thermal-to-electric efficiency of a parabolic plant is around 38 percent while the efficiency for a power tower plant is up to 42 percent, Ho said.

A power tower plant can end up operating for fewer hours each year than the trough plant, however, because power tower relies on a single receiver. The plant’s output will be compromised if that receiver isn’t working well. A trough plant has many loops of tubes, so one problematic loop won’t cause the whole plant to shut down, Ho said.

If you look at the sunlight-to-electricity efficiency, Stirling engine can do better than parabolic trough or power tower. The paraboloidal dish of the Stirling engine gives it the highest solar concentration ratio, Ho said. As a result, the sunlight-to-electric peak efficiency is about 31 percent for Stirling engine and 22-23 percent for the other two, Ho said. Stirling engines use far less water and needs it for washing the dishes. Parabolic trough and power tower designs, on the other hand, need far more water to condense the steam for re-use after it’s gone through the generator. The latter two can use dry cooling by running fans, but that adds costs and lowers the plant’s efficiency. Fights over water use have prompted BrightSource, Solar Trust and NextEra to incorporate dry cooling in designs for some of their projects.

Stirling engines are modular; each of them is a stand-alone power producer. That can be an advantage for deployment because these engines don’t require a centralized turbine-generator. But it also can be a disadvantage because it can’t achieve a certain economy of scale that is possible with parabolic trough and power tower designs, where one way to increase energy output may be to add more reflectors but not other pieces of equipment. A Stirling engine plant scales more like a PV power plant, Ho noted. Adding storage to Stirling engines will improve the technology’s appeal.

“Currently, without storage, dish-engine systems are similar to PV systems,” Ho said. “Storage will be a differentiating factor between dish-engines and PV modules that can increase the capacity factor of dish-engines and potentially reduce costs.”

Storage is a big selling point for CSP developers these days, particularly since they are having a harder time competing with PV technologies that have become much cheaper in the last two years. Storing thermal energy for use after the sun goes down means a CSP plant is more flexible in adjusting its power output to meet a utility’s demand. PV power plant output can drop significantly in the late afternoon and early evening, when electricity use can spike as people come home from work and turn on TVs and other appliances.

CSP power plants with storage already are running in Spain. Developers such as Solar Trust and SolarReserve have designed storage into their projects in the United States as well. Although including storage means adding costs, the greater ability to provide power on demand makes a CSP plant more valuable than one without storage or with PV, Georgis said.

“Las Vegas’ demand stays warm into the evening, when all the lights are turned on. We can operate like a conventional power plant. We can displace conventional generation,” he added.

Researchers are working on boosting the temperatures of the molten salt so that a smaller amount of it is necessary to produce the same amount of electricity, Ho said. Finding materials that will keep molten salt stable at high temperatures is another goal. Right now, molten salt can start to decompose and cause plugged pipes and valves when it reaches 600-650 degrees Celsius.

Improving the reflectivity of the reflectors is another research focus. Schmidt said the latest reflector design by Solar Millennium and its R&D partners have created larger and more efficient reflectors that come with fewer parts for easy assembly. At Sandia, meanwhile, researchers plan to test a metalized polymer film produced by 3M to see how it compares with glass reflectors, HO said. This project is set to start this summer.

"We want to look at the peak flux, total power, and beam size and shape to see if we can get a tight beam on the receiver with these metalized reflective films,” Ho said.

Image courtesy of GTM Research

58 Comments

Register To Comment
Christopher Williams
Christopher Williams
June 18, 2011
Sure, the curve flattens out with lower temperature and less energy, but you will have more of them. There is a conservation of energy, so either you have one high temperature object or many lower temperature objects. All of the energy is converted to heat and ends up radiating out.

Is your argument that there are many more objects radiating heat at a lower temperature and thus longer wavelengths, which are able to pass through the atmosphere unabsorbed?

Whether an object is at 373K or 310K, the amount of radiation above 1cm wavelength is negligible, which is what is needed to pass through the atmosphere unabsorbed. The shift in the Planck curve is also minimal.

So, if the total energy being radiated is the same, many low temperature objects or one higher temperature object, and all of it is being absorbed because there are no wavelengths being radiated that are above 1 cm, the effect is the same.

You have not explained or made reference to refute this.

On a side note, why does it matter whether there is indoor or outdoor EM radiation?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2011
Yes, you've missed that the whole radiation curve falls lower & lower as temperature goes down, and the portion below the flattening peak falls lower and lower. If you want to see the spectrum holes, etc. you can look at a variety of places...
www.iitap.iastate.edu/gccourse/forcing/images/image7.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

Note picture in the "Microwaves" section above, with the holes indicating where radiation isn't much absorbed. Our eyes and radio telescopes work because they exploit absorption 'holes'.

The net is that a hot PC in your house is not as hot as a common solar panel in the sun. And so its overall emissions will be far lower and biased toward frequencies below much of the IR absorption bands of any GHGs.

It also matters where the radiation is caught by GHGs in the atmosphere, so even if the PC just heated your room, it's not that same as if it were outside. Some places to look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation
www.geo.mtu.edu/~scarn/teaching/GE4250/emission_lecture.pdf
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/radiation.html

But your PC will be at 320K.
Christopher Williams
Christopher Williams
June 17, 2011
Dr. Alex:

I do believe that I understand the concept of radiance/absorption, but maybe I'm missing something because I do not believe my question was answered sufficiently. Basically, what you explain above is that the radiation spectra of a heated pv cell is in the longwave region that GHGs like; also, that cooler or even hotter objects may have emission spectra that apss through atmospheric windows. All of this is fine with me. However, GHGs DO absorb almost 100% of the longwave radiation frequencies, except for a few atmospheric windows. So, if electronic devices have radiation curves well into the longwave region due to their low temperature, it still contributes just as much to global warming as a heated pv panel. There will be a total equivalent amount of energy being emitted at frequencies that GHGs do absorb. I do not believe you explained above why GHGs will not be absorbing such radiation from electronic use when the frequencies are indeed a part of their absorption spectra. Or have I missed something?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 17, 2011
Good question on heating effects, PVWilly. The shape of the emissions curve flattens way down as the device's surface temp declines. The curve represents the energy radiated away (or absorbed) by the surface, so the area under the curve between any two colors (frequencies) is the energy emitted/absorbed in that band,

GHGs, especially water vapor, have various narrow bands their molecules tune into and vibrate when sensing those relatively narrow band of radiant energy. This is key, because, like two guitar strings tuned the same, plucking one will cause the other, when nearby to vibrate too. This is energy coupling, from one vibrating entity to another.

Molecules that vibrate upon having the right frequencies of radiant energy present, effectively couple some of that energy into their own structures. And, their vibrations now can couple energy to other molecules around them that don't care about the radiant energy coming by.

This is how atmospheric warming occurs -- coupling energy GHGs like from radiant (IR...) energy into the rest of the molecular surroundings. If the GHGs weren't there, the coupling in those bands wouldn't occur and the radiant energy would pass (like radio) into space.

So something that's the right temperature to puts lots of energy into the IR bands GHGs like is going to add more to global warming than something else that's cooler, or perhaps even hotter -- all depends on the shape of the radiance curve.

CO2 only absorbs much radiant energy in two narrow IR bands, while water absorbs all the water absorbs all the way up from microwave oven frequencies to near visible, in many bands.

So, a trick, take radiant energy from a surface and covert it to frequencies not absorbed by GHGs and radiate that back up to space. This is now being done in labs with special Silicon & Silicon-Dioxide structures -- it would be great if solar cells were soon fabricated this way.

So bottom line. you have to compare the radiance curves.
Christopher Williams
Christopher Williams
June 17, 2011
Hello people,

I have read through this discussion and have found it generally quite informative. I was hoping I haven't missed the boat and could have something clarified for me by Dr. Alex with regard to the heat dissipation and spectral absorption debate. I realize that a heated pv panel will have a lower wavelength emitted than say my laptop right now, but don't greenhouse gases absorb all longwave radiation? In which case, aside from an area required and production quantity perspective, a 100% efficient panel is equivalent to a 10% efficient panel from a global warming perspective. As Bill mentioned, it all ends up as heat.
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 13, 2011
Hi:

I have no forest around me at any distance to be of concern. I have cedar siding on the house which was the original siding that was later covered in Vinyl. I am removing the Vinyl and replacing with the fiber board. Fire is all about "time" other than in blatant big forest fires or other massive exposures. The fiber board being non flammable can buy you time to possibly extinguish and prevent total loss from an outside source. Wood and vinyl go up like straw when flame hits them directly.

.....Bill
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 13, 2011
Dr Alex
Grade two 1961 we were using asbestos in art. Mix it with water and make a sculpture. Mine was a beaver. I was looking so forward to doing the same the next year and inquired to see if we could do asbestos art. It was explained to me that it was found to cause cancer. What a difference a year makes.
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 13, 2011
Bill
I know the ancient Greeks and I believe the Romans designed their cities for passive solar gain. They implemented laws so one structure could not obstruct others from the sun. We really missed the boat 30 years ago after Edward Mazria put out The Passive Solar Energy Book. Dr Wolfgang Fiest took it further with the passive house concept. It in part is also based on Canada's National Research Council R2000 house, with an air tight envelope and their invented air to air heat exchanger.(HRV)
The Alberta tar sands are the worlds second largest oil reserves after Saudi Arabia. To produce two barrels of oil they need to burn one in order to generate the steam needed to separate the oil from the sand. Literally one third of that stuff is going to go up in smoke.
Why didn't you go for wood siding? Store a bit of carbon for a while. The chances of the fire rating being of any use is a remote possibility. We had a large forest fire in 2003 that took out 230 houses. Stucco and concrete tile roofs didn't help save anything.
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 13, 2011
Hi:

There is no end to the "bad" stuff going on in this world from all perspectives. From the just approved pipe line for the Alberta Tar sands oil to run from there down through the middle of the USA to Louisiana, to the resistance encountered by people wanting to build different solar houses (rammed tire earth ships) as the man out in the west, on and on...
As far as solar goes, until it is a zoning requirement for houses to be aligned for solar rather than squared off to the housing development road which is random, the solar adoption percentage will not be what it needs to be. The savings in heating and cooling by just pointing the houses in the right direction with roof overhangs would be more than all the solar implemented to date.
Regarding siding, I chose Hardie fiber board for its fire rating. Never really liked having a house wrapped in oil (vinyl)...

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 13, 2011
Gary, my dad actually took me to the asbestos mine his company owned in Quebec -- Thetford Mines. That was before anyone knew or cared about it. The mine manager had a pet raccoon, which I held for a picture!
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 12, 2011
Dr AlexC Check out James Hardie Products. It is a cement and wood fiber product that I'm sure is used frequently where you live. The CO2 in manufacturing and transportation is the problem.
Now you have me going on asbestos. Canada with its undeserving green (see the oil sands) and peace loving (our new right wing nut government is now taking sides in the middle east) reputation is a knowing merchant of death. The federal government willingly promotes international asbestos sales. This is done to appease the Quebec vote and pacify the constant threat of separation. Quebec is where the mines are.
Most of these sales from Canuckistan (a reference to Canada from someone in Congress one time) go to India and Indonesia and the mineral is used as a fiber reinforcement for cement products.
India and 46 other Asian countries now have to prepare for a wave of asbestos related pulmonary diseases, particularly with the people who work with this deadly material.
The asbestos related diseases asbestosis, mesothelioma, asbestos lung cancer and pleura are thought to kill 107,000 people annually.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2011
Thanks Gary. Sounds like we're dumping stuff we can't legally sell down here! My dad worked for a large building materials manufacturer for decades and they made a cement-fiber roofing/siding product -- the fiber was asbestos. It's what we put on our home & chicken coop back east in the '50s. Now, it's hazardous waste.
;]
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 12, 2011
Hi:

Like all TV today, the people IN CHARGE are not the ones you see.
Heidi was heavily filtered to say the least. If you can get your hands on a documentary called, "Everythings Cool", you will get a little insight of what she went through for her TWC show...

.....Bill
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 12, 2011
Dr Alex

Cementitious imitation wood siding. AKA Hardie plank siding. Excuse my spelling.
A cement based fiber reinforced building product. It is way over used up here in the land of trees and more trees, not to mention we have a lot of trees up here.
The local collective lack of intelligence sees nothing wrong with all the CO2's produced in manufacturing this product then trucking it up here. Slap it on a house, paint it dark green to conduct the heat then crank up the air conditioning all summer.
Another one of my favourites is the genuine imitation architectural stone veneer. It is also a cement based product trucked up from California. Looks like crap. I sarcastically tell people the world is running out of rock so we are forced to make fake stuff.
Locally we manufacture a sliced face rock for veneered exteriors, Basalt, Okanagan Blue Gneiss and "Daycite". (the name I was given but cannot find anywhere) It is a metamorphic volcanic ash that looks like a sedimentary rock with its distinctive layers.
The leftovers from this manufacturing are crushed for a construction aggregate.
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 12, 2011
Gary - New Zealand did institute research programs to improve animal feed for the express purpose of reducing methane releases, and I hear it is producing very good results in reducing GHG emissions.
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 12, 2011
"In addition to her responsibilities as interim CEO and Director of Communications, Dr. Heidi Cullen serves as a research scientist and correspondent for Climate Central.
Before joining Climate Central, where she reports on climate and energy issues for programs like PBS NewsHour, Dr. Cullen served as The Weather Channel's first on-air climate expert and helped create Forecast Earth, a weekly television series focused on issues related to climate change and the environment."
I used to watch all the episodes and contributed on her weather channel blog, but her shows faded from great to infotainment, and her blog entries were seemingly written by a politically-correct 12 year old - bad math and direct falsification of quotes from other published journals and articles. Example: removing the words "In many cases" and printing "30% of the resource is lost in transmission" as the whole sentence. Had a husband, last time I checked.
As if TV isn't sad enough already, they re-hosted her show with another woman, this one knowing even less science, but having a larger cup size.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2011
Uh oh, Bill can Google! Should never believe what you read about folks from public sites, Bill -- they might actually not want all info displayed for some folks to grab onto. So now we all know you'll take Internet bait at face value.
;]

As to icebergs & matches -- the match has far higher power density, higher than the sun's, in fact, so the radiation from the two is not only very different in amount (referenced to absolute zero), the radiation frequencies from the match will excite GHG molecules in teh air. Radiation from icebergs doesn't, otherwise, the arctic would have balmy air, with all that ice you rightly assign more heat to.

Again, read up on thermal-radiation spectra, Bill. Einstein did find the proper way to model it. Here's a start...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 12, 2011
Hi Gary:

I think DrA is slightly high on his professed accolades ..LOL..
It is amazing how arrogant someone can be to an audience they know nothing about.
As for radiative heat, I believe we covered that in high school Physics as well as Freshman year college Physics in my Alonso-Finn text book, published by Addison Wesley. You might reference it to help yourself out, though it is pretty basic...
As for your red hot small vs big and cooler example, the correct standard physics example is, 'which has more heat an ice berg or a lit match?' Ice berg of course..
For someone who spent most of their career bouncing from computer company to computer company in IT, you certainly seem to profess a lot of knowledge out of your field. You must be a regular Albert Einstein...LOL...

.....Bill

PS: Gary, I don't know on Heidi, I just meant I have conversed with her on line a few times and she seems pretty nice...
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 12, 2011
Gary, what on earth is "cementicious imitation wood siding"? And why do we make it down here for you guys up there.? We love BC, by the way.

ROI, like most accounting, doesn't account for reality. But, for HCs, you can estimate that burning 1 US gallon consumes what was 170,000lbs of vegetable matter that decayed & was processed by sedimentation for about 700,000 years. That's 35kWHrs of thermal energy consumed in, say, an hour, from a 700,000-year investment millions of years ago. ROI?

As the old farm saying goes: "There's no substitute for human stupidity".
;]
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 12, 2011
Dr AlexC
31 years ago I built my first passive solar home that consumed 35% less energy than a typical house of the day. I was told by many it would not work and I was wasting my time not to mention it cost too much to go solar. It actually cost less as I sourced all my building materials locally. This house was partially protected by an earth berm and required no air conditioning. Our hot summer days get up to 42 C or 107 F.
When I'm constructing homes on south sloping mountains and suggest solar I still receive scorn.
I have concluded that due to human stupidity we are doomed to extinction but trudge on in spite of these idiots. I'm still building homes for the insecure who display their wealth with Brazilian hardwood floors, Chinese quartzite driveways, African mahogany wood trim throughout, $150,000 geothermal heat systems, granite counter tops and cementicious imitation wood siding trucked up from California to the interior of British Columbia. Apparently our pine forests, that are being devastated by beetle kill due to global warming, do not produce a suitable siding for these flakes because it needs maintenance. Heaven forbid one would have to employ someone every ten years to stain their home.
I still have this delusional perception that I'm going to set an example buy building the Okanagan Valleys first passive home and help to change the world. This is in an area where suggesting upgrading insulation only receives inquiries about ROI.
Has anyone ever calculated the ROI on all the hydrocarbons we are consuming? Is it forever or does it go on longer than that?

Bill do you know Heidi and is she single?

What ever happened to tgearing?
Would adding beano to animal feed do anything to prevent the methane belching from animals we eat. Global affluence is accelerating that problem.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
Gary, indeed one of the solutions to CO2 emissions identified over 40 years ago by of all folks, nuclear physicists, was tree planting. See, they not only cared about clean power generation, many also cared about climate change even before blogs, Wikipedia, 'renewables', 'green', yadda, yadda.

The recommendation then was to plant 1 trillion new trees each year -- 200 per capita. And, to stop burning coal/oil/gas wastefully.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
When Bill gets "bored" he shouts: "NO DIFFERENCE FROM THE DIRECT GENERATION ASPECT OF HEAT!!!" and we're supposed to list.

Indeed all energy conversions end up as heat, or stored molecular or electrical, or gravitational, or... energy.

The problem, Bill, is the temperature of the heat emitter. Unless you understand radiative physics, you'll miss the basic fact that something warm to the touch, but so large it emits as much heat as something almost red hot, is doing a very different thing the its surroundings, GHGs, etc. You can indeed go back to the same basic school I and others did, and just look up thermal emission spectra, color temperature, etc. Lots of info.

So, if the solar panel gets too hot to touch, but the juice it generates just makes your iPad warm when charging, the effect on global warming is very different -- all IR is not the same, especially when seen by GHG molecules just looking for certain thermal 'colors' in unnatural IR we produce.

Study up, Bill.
;]
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 11, 2011
Hi Gary:

Well, yes, of course all a no brainer..
I just get tired of the level of understanding expressed on a site (RE) that should have the basics out of the way a very long time ago. So much self promotion, misunderstanding and misinformation... Its like a piece of steak that has been endlessly chewed... no flavor...
I just had TWC on and they are talking about 2011 extreme weather. Heidi was speaking about the "new norm". (Heidi is nice BTW). But, no duh. We are reducing every form of storage on this planet while the planetary energy exposure remains constant. The temp extremes will swing more in both directions, not even counting greenhouse effects. Weather will change proportionality to the new energy levels in the atmosphere and oceans. The planet is going to become far less friendly to life as developed in this last million years.... All this should be obvious to everyone who has had even modest exposure to basic science and logical thinking. As for mans strongest instinct being survival, only true for imminent threats. For the long term, we suck....

.....Bill
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 11, 2011
Bill don't get bored and leave us yet.
Obviously what you are talking about is the second law of thermodynamics but please note. When we increase efficiencies and obtain more work with less initial input, which would presently mean burning less fossil fuels, we are on our way to resolving the CO2 issue. This would translate into imposing less harm on the surface of our planet and its biodiversity.
Efficiency is one of the most important factors in the climate change CO2 issue. A passive house uses 1/10 the energy of a standard North American dwelling. Translate that into 1/10 the coal generation, 1/10 the nuclear reactors, 1/10 the oil consumption and maybe 1/10 the problem we are having now.
Buying 1/10 the number of solar panels and storing the electrons in 1/10 the volume to propel a car that weighs 1/10 that of steel (preferably a resin impregnated hemp body circa 1941 Henry Ford) would allow use to save a considerable amount of personal income. We could invest this new found wealth into cleaning up this mess we have created.

PLANT TREES!!!
Constantine Kritsonis
Constantine Kritsonis
June 11, 2011
Check out Shec Energy's CSP sterling engine MOU with Cleanergy. Waterless!
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 11, 2011
Hi #28:

The simple trick is to tap the energy source as much as possible. Non fuel based storage is the key. A fuel should be used only as a transition until tech is available to have the electrical storage needed. AS far as Thorium, well, there is always someone out there wanting to tap some of Washington's nuclear money. There will never be a shortage of people lining up....
Regarding the whole 'heat' issue, aka DrA etc..
You guys need some clarity... IT ALL WINDS UP AS HEAT!!!
The whole discussion from just an efficiency issue regarding heat is BOGUS!! The only aspect that matters is the CO2 displaced or energy locked up in Chemistry. Take two solar PV panels. One is 10% eff. The other 100% eff. DrA would have you believe oh how bad the 10% panel is because of IR heat!! Oh My, My.. Lets look at those two panels. The 10% unit produces 10 units of elect and 90 units of IR localized heat. The 100% unit produces 100 units of elect and zero units of localized IR heat. But don't stop there. Now we transport the 10 units of elect to do work. How do those 10 units of elect wind up?? AS HEAT no matter what you do with them UNLESS you lock the energy up in chemistry, Permanently! What happens to the 100 units of elect?? Winds up as HEAT!!
NO DIFFERENCE FROM THE DIRECT GENERATION ASPECT OF HEAT!!!
What matters is the CO2 production for the life cycle for each sceniero regarding displacement of conventional fuel...
End Of Lesson...
Really DrA, you need to go back to school...

.....Bill
PS: I am getting bored again here... the basics over an over...
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
You're on target Fire... If solar PV simply reflected back the frequencies they don't use, they'd be perfect. A few years back I asked cell makers we hold stock in if they'd considered coatings that would do that. Too costly to make something durable was the answer. So, we just await improvements in the conversion bandwidth.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
Nice to hear Fire... You can go here for a summary of what China is already copying from us: http://tinyurl.com/25mgqkd

And you can just go here to get a variety of papers etc. on the reasons why Th is the nuclear future (we were supposed to have started deploying decades ago}...
www.thoriumenergyalliance.com
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
Mining for rare earths in the US first needs to have Congress clear up the Thorium issue, because it often occurs in the same minerals and is very mildly radioactive -- half life = age of the universe. There is legislation in process to deal with this. Pray Congress can do at least one sensible thing this year.

Lithium is another matter, but fortunately Bolivia, not China may control its best supplies.

However, the best storage may well be the ultra-capacitor, via nano-tech materials. It will be light, non-polluting and charge/discharge quickly.

But, there's catch with rapid charging -- take a charged-up device and connect it to an uncharged one. The energy ending up in the receiving device is 1/2 the energy originally in the charged device. This is because the rapid current increase when charging starts, radiates away energy as electromagnetic waves -- radio. So, charging must be done gradually, minimizing loss.

Combustibles haven't this issue because their energy isn't being pumped into the gas tank, their molecules are, and the other part needed, Oxygen, is waiting around outside. Only when fuel enters the engine with O2 and gets ignited does the chemical energy stored in the combining molecules appear.

This is like nuclear power, which comes from fusion of heavy elements by large, dying stars billions of years before our solar system was made. So, Thorium, Uranium... are nuclear batteries, charged up by supernovae before time! And, their great value is in having hundreds of thousands of times more energy per lb than any combustible source. Talk about manna from heaven.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
So on to DG (rooftop solar) with local storage...

Plenty of roofs/parking lots. No need for wind, again because it's lower in power density and has inevitable transmission losses, plus variability, bird/bat deaths, noise, ~700tons of fossil-fuel product needed per MW of installed gear....

Solar PV/water-heating on existing surfaces eliminates both space & transmission waste and is the present Calif Sierra Club choice, along with efficiency improvements thrown in -- we now waste >50% of generation in Calif. US wastes more.

The Thorium Molten-Salt Reactor, based on the operational MSRs at Oak Ridge in the '60s is indeed the safest, lowest footprint, non-emitting, base-load source we could want -- >60MW/acre, including mining/waste: http://tinyurl.com/25mgqkd
http://tinyurl.com/yb2qgex

Plus, we have over 1000 years of Th in just one little mine up in Idaho. We were supposed to have got rid of our current reactors (LWRs) by 2000, but you know how industry & Congress work...
http://energyfromthorium.com/pdf/CivilianNuclearPower.pdf

Big deal, so what's 49 years wasted?
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 11, 2011
Good questions Gary. First, any combustion immediately raises what's the heat for?

If it's to make us warm, cook food, chemicals, etc., then ok, burn the cleanest fuel as cleanly as possible -- natural gas or hydrogen.

If we want motion (vehicle/generator) from the heat, we're into thermodynamic inefficiency, and all the Carnot, Atkinson, Stirling, Brayton... Cycles, where we're lucky to get 40% out of the fuel's energy, very lucky to get higher, via fancy turbines, etc., and most likely to get ~30%, via internal combustion.

The latter is why PV is the way to go to get electricity -- we can expect better than 40% soon, higher in several years, at <$1/Watt.

Hydrogen for heating or motion is a problem. It does give us 15kWHrs/lb, but that lb is huge. So we have to compress it to several thousand psi, just to get it to fit into, say, a Cadillac. This costs 3-5kWHr/lb right off the bat. So now, H2 is only a bit better than gasoline, per lb. And, we had to expend a lot of energy to get the H2 from water, which is a very tightly bound molecule. Adding all the energy expenditures up, and the insurance costs for trucking around highly compressed explosive materials and we see the Hydrogen Highway was as imaginary as the Terminator's wedding vows.
;]
So, for transport, petrol (6kWHr/lb) is going to be important for a long time still, possibly always for aircraft. Consider that when you fill you car with gas/diesel, you're holding a conduit carrying about 10MW of power. If that were electricity, the magnetic field would ruin any electronic devices or credit cards for some distance from your hand. Even with an EV's 90% eff. that cable would have to be delivering about 4MW, or 1000 amps at 4000 volts to your car, to get it charged in the same time as a gas fillup.

This is the current (pun) problem with EVs. We'll solve it with better storage, but the charging rate will always be high, and care will be required to shield the process.
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 11, 2011
Thank you all for the most informative and educational discussion I have been able to enjoy within the RE news community
My commitment to solar PV is fully intact though 100% efficiency may be years away. Carbon nano tubes may help make this a reality just as these same structures will increase battery efficiency in regards to lithium sulfur storage.
District generation resolves so many issues, sabotage, transmission losses, wasted roof space and ruining our beautiful deserts. It allows communities and individuals to invest in their own and the planets well being.
Solar PV efficiencies can be increased easily by removing the excess heat for domestic, commercial and industrial hot water. This also increases electrical output.
Any thoughts on using wind energy in areas of consistent high volumes to produce hydrogen. It is my neighbors preferred solution whereas I suggest PV and storage. I think the hydrogen route requires to much infrastructure and is problematic for other reasons.
DrAlexC ? tgearing MIT guy ? william-fetch ?
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 10, 2011
Interesting re SHEC, but 32% conversion is still poor, wasting 68%, just like a combustion engine.

Given that PV from folks like SunPower is now creeping over 20% and can be installed on structures, immediately next to loads, the use of X 'farms' (X = wind, solar...) makes no long-term sense. Of course, if some investors can make $, who cares, right?
;]
Long term, solar PV has a clear path to what military/space cells now do (>40%) and various alternatives in R&D that can go far higher. So there's really no reason to bother with any thermal conversion systems based on solar input.

By the way, common molten salts (chlorides, fluorides, etc.) work well beyond 900C. In fact fluorides, (Fluorine being the most electro-negative ion) are more stable than any other salts, for temperature and radiation, which is why they've long been used for molten-salt reactor research.
Constantine Kritsonis
Constantine Kritsonis
June 10, 2011
Canada's SHEC ENERGY reports patenting an number of inventions in utility scale concentrated solar thermal power and storage that when scaled up, represent a major reduction in costs per KW hour and would be disruptive to the CSP industry. SHEC reports a rapid manufacturing process that is at least eight times faster than the fastest parabolic mirror forming methodology.
SHEC's main breakthrough is a solar beam receiver that can process heat over 825 degrees C and is likely the only such technology in the world, having an emissivity loss of only about 2%. (parabolic trough technology is about 45% loss)

SHEC has a proprietary liquid that can store heat at 850 degrees C (conventional medium molten salt is only at 560 degrees or lower) with implications for baseload power and increased turbine efficiencies.

SHEC ENERGY has an MOU with Sweden's Cleanergy to build waterless (no steam turbine needed)solar sterling engines. Swedens' Cleanergy has an order for several thousand solar sterling engines that can be made with SHEC's receiver. Efficiency conversion rate is about 32% or about double that of typical PV tech.
SHEC ENERGY was selected to participate in the Obama administrations solar trade mission to India and has solar farm

MOU's in the region dependent on completing the integrated pilot plant. There is an MOU with a South African jurisdiction to build a 50 MW solar farm. This requires funding to complete an environmental assessment.

Germany ( after a due diligence visit to SHEC's lab)has offered a $40,000,000.00 grant to build a parts factory there , but this requires matching funds. There are a number of applications for these technologies including utility and village scale power both, efficient energy storage, hot water, air conditioning, industrial heat for smelters and any remote power needs where there is no grid connection. SHEC ENERGY is a private company engaged in a funding round at this time.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
(continued...)
As to making steam -- it's the least efficient way of getting electricity or mechanical motion from thermal, undirected energy. A steam locomotive was at best under 7% efficient in turning coal to driving power. A car 30%. A coal/gas power plant, with multi-stage turbines gets 40+%, at great expense. The basic thermodynamic reality is that thermal conversion efficiency of each stage (e.g., turbine) equals 1 minus the absolute temperature of the working fluid when exhausted from the engine, divided by the temperature of that same fluid when ignited or entered into the engine. 1 - Tcold / Thot -- Mr. MIT should get this as the ideal Carnot Cycle. Real cycles, like the Atkinson & Brayton exist, but only approach ideal.

So, we either want to have our engine exhaust at absolute zero (put your hand in your car's exhaust pipe after driving a bit -- not frozen?), and/or we want infinite temperature when the working fluid combusts/enters the engine's sealed working chamber. marginal. If car engines were ideal,we'd get 60mpg at 60mph, because a gallon of gas has ~35kWHrs of energy and a car on;y needs about 35kW to move at 60mph. We don't get 60mpg because about 2/3 the gasoline's energy just goes out the exhaust pipe, along with 2/3 the $ you put in the tank.

So, concentrating solar thermal has to get the working fluid damned hot to get any efficiency above a combustion engine's. This affects reliability, cost, etc. It's also why molten salts are better thermal energy carriers than water, because Thot can be 900C, for example. Then drive Brayton Cycle, multi-stage turbines and maybe get 40% efficiency, just like a coal plant.

So what? The acreage consumed, the maintenance, water evap., the transmission loss, the 60% of solar energy converted to waste heat -- all those go to increased global warming. There's a beneficial offset only if the plant displaces enough CO2 emissions from combustion plants. Otherwise, DG PV is far superior.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
Ha, ha, Sahara indeed. All you have to do is try to sit down on any SW desert here in the US, naked.

Now: "water vapor in the atmosphere will stop some of the reflected light energy from leaving the planet"-- that's what GHGs do, however, "reflected" means not changed in frequency. So the visible sunlight we see is coming to us largely unabsorbed because most GHGs just absorb in the IR range, like water. That's why microwave ovens work -- heating water with even lower than IR frequencies.

The visible light that's reflect back as the same colors isn't absorbed on the way out, just as it wasn't on the way in. Thus, white surfaces. Now back to evolution,-- eyes see the sunlight that's not absorbed. Sensible, eh? Also, the energy coupled from light to electrons, etc. increases with frequency (going from low IR to high UV), so it also makes sense that photosynthesis in pants would use not only what comes in unabsorbed, but of higher than IR frequency (energy per photon). Science is such a bear!

Now these inefficient solar converters (any kind) are ok if they cover an equally inefficient surface, like a roof -- no problemo again. Sunlight gives us 86,000,000,000,000,000 Watts, and we generate >16,000,000,000,000 now. So, yes, even if we did that inefficiently, 16/86000 doesn't sound like much of an effect. However, the heat balance has been shifted net warming by about 1/2 Watt per sq meter today. That's a .03% change in relation to the 1366 Watts per sq meter coming in. So, why assume that 17/86000 is meaningless, when a similar unbalance is having great climate effect already? No need for super computer models to have the old noggin' apply some common sense. Put solar generation in place of already hot, IR-generating surfaces.
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 9, 2011
Over-simplification - guilty as charged. Since there is no valid climate model currently running on any super computer on earth, we all over-simplify. So what is the percentage increase/decrease in global albedo from these CSP PV plants?could it be a shift of as much as 0.000000001 percent? Oh, how terrible! It will displace coal-burning power plants, and the earth will be better off for it.

Good point on the white roofs - so true. And urban heat islands can be mitigated by having green roofs as well. Instead of reflecting the light, green roofs convert the energy into plant matter, reducing heat and providing sustinance at the same time.
Both would improve the situation.

And since CO2 is only 17% of warming, the water vapor in the atmosphere will stop some of the reflected light energy from leaving the planet. Surface level reflectivity is not as effective as it would be without clouds: some energy (oblique incident angles - reflected into clouds) into those energy traps.

New Zealand scientists discovered that burping and farting farm animals contributed more to climate change than all of the cars and power plants - within the surface area of their country.

So what is a possible solution to extra heat from CSP? It isn't hard to imagine combined heat and power with plants near cities, and GE is doing wonders with waste-heat reuse, so enough of that extra heat can be used to zero out the balance. We don't have 100% of all the solutions in place, but a journey of 1,000 miles begins with 1 step (Sidhartha).

PS - DrA, Feel free to stick the obliquily referenced part of your anatomy into the sand of a Sahara dune at noon, and you will find out that the temperature there is even hotter than the black car you suggest. Even with high albedo, you know the temp is so high, PV wil be negligible in making it hotter.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
The way LBL, CEC, even MIT folks turn it around is to calculate that just increasing building roof reflectivity (albedo) 40% worldwide has the same reduction in global warming as if none of the 800 million combustion vehicles on earth were driven for the next decade.


Now, even non-GHG-emitting technology that adds heat to the air/water adds to global warming. Solar ce3lls, etc. add heat via 1-eff. And they reduce warming by offsets to CO2 producers of electricity -- all true. The crossover time is what's important. For 10% solar PV, displacing coal fired power, it's several months. Here in Calif, it's longer because we use gas & hydro. When CO2 is back down where we need it (don't wait up), the offset is gone, and we still have 1-eff adding unnatural IR to heat remaining GHGs.

CO2 is only responsible for about 17% of warming. Water vapor is the largest contributor, because it has many more IR bands it likes to absorb. N2O is very bad, as are CH4, HFCs, and NF3 -- a real baddy, used for making flat-screen displays, and unregulated.

So, as 2-degree MIT Guy should then figure out -- unnatural IR from any dark surface has lots of negative vibes to add to our warming problem.

So, if solar cells become able to use/reflect all light frequencies, just as they come down to us, then no problemo. And, we can all sit our fannies on a solar array without pain.
;]
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
Wow! Controversy! Degree counts!

William has the basic idea -- reflectivity of natural surfaces and/or plant life. Doubters go out in a sunny parking lot and see how long you can put a hand on a black car, vs a white one. I could suggest putting some other bare anatomical surface against a hot car, but...

Now try a green leaf -- not hot? Why? Well, the reflectivity of plants is high in the IR and modest in green, but plants, like us, sweat water, thus cooling all sunny day long. In fact, a mature broadleaf tree is a 60kW neighborhood cooling system. You can even imagine an evolutionary reason for all these great features of natural, living plants.

For solar PV, 1-efficiency is the problem. 20% efficiency sort of ok, 40%, as in military/space cells much better. And, future designs will get nearer 100%. Anything not turned into electricity becomes heat, reradiated as IR to all the GHGs. The visible light not e-converted/reflected becomes unnatural IR, thus increasing global warming. There's a reason or two why DoE wants us to paint roofs white.

To Gary & Mister MIT, common solar PV currently only converts certain frequency ranges, down into the red, to free electrons. IR is ignored electrically but re-radiated back to the air's GHGs. If you don't believe it, go touch the surface of a rooftop solar panel in the sun.

The Calif. Energy Comm., Lawrence Berkeley Labs, the international Heat Island Group... have all been explaining this kind of thing for decades. If we get 1kW/sq-meter incoming and about 1/2 is visible, unabsorbed by GHGs, then we inefficiently downconvert that 500W to IR and send it back up, what do you think happens? The MIT engineering folks know. Why not you?

This is why natural reality explains that inefficient conversion of solar radiance to IR by dark roofs, pavement, inefficient solar panels is equivalent to driving about twice as much per home.

(will continue...)
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 9, 2011
Hi:

#17 - #19, its not that simple. Desert white sand has a pretty good reflective index. A majority of the visible gets reflected back into space. If PV were present, 85% of the visible gets turned to IR long wave (heat) instantly.
Ignoring DrA at the moment, complex systems have complex explanations as to how different changes effect the outcome. It would be nice if all could be understood with sound bites, but that is not where the truth lies...

.....Bill
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 9, 2011
Gary - you are correct. Moving some of the incident energy away as electricity reduces warming. Whoever this phoney DrA is, he is lying his face off. I would bet my 2 degrees in EE from MIT on you over DrA.
Gary McCallum
Gary McCallum
June 9, 2011
Dr AlexC SAYS

Let's think through some realities...

1) Making 'steam' to run turbines is what conventional and LWR nuclear plants do. Unfortunately, the CSP steam systems talked about here are low efficiency, simply because of the realities of using water/steam -- turbines must be large, expensive and only when multiple stages are used can efficiencies begin to approach those of the simplest coal/gas plants. Unless molten salt or other high-temperature systems are used, CSP will be thermally wasteful, adding some to global warming.

How can a system that uses incoming solar radiation add to global warming as without the solar thermal plant this full spectrum light would land on the desert floor then heat the earths surface and atmosphere to be partially radiated out into space at night.
Global warming is caused buy consuming half a billion years of stored carbon and changing the atmosphere to a point where it retains more heat
My limited understanding of physics says turning IR into electricity into work which gives off heat would balance itself out. No addition to global warming
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 9, 2011
'We need remember that solar PV adds to global warming'
I pity the poor fools who would give a Phd to someone who violates logic to claim that a 10% reduction is a increase, since 90% is still commig through.
William Fitch
William Fitch
June 9, 2011
Hi:

I am getting ready to install about 7KW PV tracking. My target is 20K gross $ for the whole system. I should end up out of pocket about 12.5K after incentives. The amount of power generated will be about 1.5 times my res usage on a 12 month basis. The last component will be wind added to the mix to flatten generation during heating season (PA location). The final generation should be about 1.75 times current usage. This will provide enough elect to power one or two electric vehicles down the road.
I wrote an article about two years ago comparing white roofs VS PV, as to which is better to curb HIE (Heat Island Effect). My conclusion was white wins easily. However, I did not go back to all the emissions involved for either tech to origin. My article was referring specifically to HIE not total CO2 planetary build up. I think if you did this, PV would start to fair better. I am installing PV to generate elect to make me a net producer and dump one or two ICE's and the associated gas, min 1000 gallons per year. My point in mentioning all these things is that when you make statements on whether a particular tech is good or bad, you really have to look at the specific details on what the produced energy is going to displace from cradle to grave. Only then do you really get a true picture of the applications impact.

.....Bill
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
Yes, understand. The problem we face as humans is always looking for a quick fix. If we install something inefficient, we create waste for a long period. If we choose to spend a bit more, we help ourselves long term. It's short-term thinking that always burns us.

The ink guys are solving a problem they think is important -- making $ quickly by price competition with otherwise superior products. If we save 75% on $ now, but waste 90% of incoming power for years (rather than say 80% for more $), we become part of the problem, not the solution.

What works is leasing high-quality, efficient systems now, or getting property-based loans to own such systems. And must think of the issue of local control via the Community-Choice Aggregation concept, as here in Calif. Long term, we don't want lease holders selling their leases to traditional utilities, which then subverts the CCA concept we fought hard for.

We're in the typical transition period for technologies, where some folks are designing the best they can, measured on parameters relevant to reality, while others are simply doing a business model that aims for short-term profits on inferior designs that can undercut current pricing for the best technology.

Right now, it's likely best to just paint your roof white and plant shade trees. When commercial PV reaches military/space efficiencies of >40%, then do an install. The white-roofed home will have saved >300kWHrs/day of global warming from IR generation for the whole time one was angsting over what PV to install. That's more global-warming saving than you'd get from simply not driving a car anymore. A mature shade tree is even better -- a 60kW cooling system in the sun.

In the '80s, when some top scientists were advising on climate issues, one option given, to offset the continued coal/oil/gas combustion, was to plant 1 trillion trees worldwide each year. That's 200 trees/person/year. That might have helped a few decades ago.
Ralph Perez
Ralph Perez
June 9, 2011
Alex, Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing. This is a sample web site explaining more about the efficiency and the expected cost decrease.

http://www.innovalight.com/press_releases/doe.htm

I am discussing in relation to the idea that any transmission losses will be minimized because of the proximity (rooftop) of the consumer. Legislation or regulations that do not allow a consumer to participate in the benefits of this solar advancement should be changed.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 9, 2011
'Electric', fortunately, efficiency is indeed key and part of legislation now/proposed in some states, including Calif.

We need remember that solar PV adds to global warming in proportion to 1 - efficiency. So 1kW/sq meter incoming, hitting 10% ink panels wastes 900 watts per sq meter as direct IR radiation back to GHGs. Current, 20% cells waste less, and future still less. Thus, offsetting coal/gas generation is only part of the PV story -- IR reeduction will always be essential, even when coal/oil/gas are gone. So, if used on local surfaces that already convert visible light to IR, the DG benefit accrues directly. Dedicated arrays over natural lands don't provide such benefit and add losses in transmission. DG is one of the best choices today, and it will continue to improve faster than any other as cell efficiencies continue their increases.

Concentrated, local solar PV, as from Skyline Solar, is fine for industrial purposes on large structures.
Ralph Perez
Ralph Perez
June 9, 2011
Good points Christina,

Las Vegas is slowly switching to LED's, but the local utility company wants to make sure all the producers of incandescent and fluorescent lights have depleted their stock. There is virtually no rooftop solar existing for any of the residents and small businesses. A look to either side of the 'big lights' should suffice as evidence.
Don't confuse anything Las Vegas does with efficiency, there is a world of wealthy gamblers out there that they know how to persuade to help pay the bills.

and Alex,
A local utility will not care if there is a lack of efficiency, as long as they maintain control. 'Concentrated' comes to mean 'controlled by a monopoly' as we watch America's desert lands get another look from the BLM for several solar farms. I would think there will be a tremendous push to hurry and get these built (at taxpayer expense/subsidy), before solar printing presses using solar ink hits the market with full force.

The rise of concentrated solar will hit quite a drop, once the ink comes to market, especially if it falls into step with 'plug and play' type rooftop installs. It's drop might be similar to the stock market during the great depression.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 8, 2011
As soon as we convert light to heat, we enter the thermodynamic realities of inefficiency. So, since >2% of earth's land is already covered by human structure, why bother covering more? Why bother putting it far away, losing power? DG on local structures is environmentally superior, efficiency superior and superior for reliability (including sabotage). Plus, adding PV/water heating to surfaces that otherwise would just get hot in the sun, automatically lessens global arming significantly.

Despite SETI going deaf, any aliens watching us must be having a real good laugh from some of our oddball, subsidized ideas, like desert solar thermal, windmills...
Christina Nelson
Christina Nelson
June 8, 2011
First of all, Vegas can just turn their wasteful lights off.

I like the Sterling engine and parabolic trough. It lends itself easily to distributed energy and uses very little water. The heat rejection side is very hot and this heat could be used for hot water, process or space heating. It could also be used to drive an Ormat style turbine for additional energy and still provide thermal heat on the heat rejection side.

Storage of thermal energy for nighttime power gerneration using the Ormat cycle is very easy.
Roger Bedell
Roger Bedell
June 8, 2011
I've been reading CSP Today, and a lot of the articles there seem to point to a crossover of PV vs CSP is occurring right now. In other words, PV is looking a lot more flexible and almost the same cost, with future cost reductions in PV more likely than in CSP. The only advantage of CSP seems to still have is storage, but batteries are coming on strong there as well, with some big cost reductions occurring due primarily to the EV industry's massive push to lower prices per kWh to make EVs cheaper to run than petroleum engines. Since PV just needs to charge once a day to compete with thermal storage, the EV batteries should work just fine since that is the cycle they are also designed to work with and last 10 years. Used EV batteries can also be recycled for PV since they still have lots of life left, just not enough for vehicles.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
June 8, 2011
Let's think through some realities...

1) Making "steam" to run turbines is what conventional and LWR nuclear plants do. Unfortunately, the CSP steam systems talked about here are low efficiency, simply because of the realities of using water/steam -- turbines must be large, expensive and only when multiple stages are used can efficiencies begin to approach those of the simplest coal/gas plants. Unless molten salt or other high-temperature systems are used, CSP will be thermally wasteful, adding some to global warming.

2) The plants' designs must handle rapid thermal excursions from cloud passages. This has been a problem in Spain, where one vaunted site must defocus its mirrors during partly-cloudy days -- the 'boiler' target cannot handle such rapid changes in heat stress.

3) Power density is low, land use high -- "CA Energy Commission Approves 650 MW of Solar Power in California Desert" on ~7000 acres! Really. That's 650/7000 = 90kW/acre, when the sun is out! Really? Standard 20% solar PV delivers 600kW/acre, with no fear of cloud transitions. Nuclear delivers >100 times more.

4) Maintenance is higher than other systems, because not only is mirror cleanliness/aiming more important, the thermal target is expensive, stressed and not positioned for maintenance ease. All the control gear for mirror positioning must be maintained, despite winds, blowing grit, etc. Passive solar PV requires far less maintenance, and tracking concentrated PV (e.g., Skyline Solar), not much more.

5) Like all massed, remote, so-called 'renewables' a permanent transmission loss tax is levied, which is about 10% in Calif. Also adding a bit to global warming.

Concentrated thermal solar is an idea that was never practical and will continue to slide rightfully into oblivion as solar PV, particularly local (DG) continues to improve. DG automatically gains back the transmission tax and eliminates wasteful land consumption.
chand datwani
chand datwani
June 8, 2011
jun08'2011

we want to generate steam for industrial chemical production application.

can someone guide us for understanding the costs for substantial volume of steam requirement, only available during sunlight hours would also be ok depending on economics of the same.

rgds

datwani chand
venlon enterprises ltd.,
26p belwadi industrial area,
hunsur rd,
mysore 570018.
karnataka
India
email:datwanichand@gmail.com
chand datwani
chand datwani
June 8, 2011
jun08'2011

we want to generate steam for industrial chemical production application.

can someone guide us for understanding the costs for substantial volume of steam requirement, only available during sunlight hours would also be ok depending on economics of the same.

rgds

datwani chand
venlon enterprises ltd.,
26p belwadi industrial area,
hunsur rd,
mysore 570018.
karnataka
India
Melvin Prueitt
Melvin Prueitt
June 7, 2011
Since the solar CSP industry is working so hard to reduce costs of CSP, the CSP solar companies should take a look at some of the new technologies, such as the newly patented "Suntrof." It is much less expensive than other solar troughs and can be installed much faster.
Melvin Prueitt
Sunenerjy@losalamos.com
Berg Karsten
Berg Karsten
June 7, 2011
Really usefull CSP-review what's going on around the world.

Here some more in the same sense:

http://exploraberg.cl/wordpress/energy/solar-power-industry-in-chile-why-not/

One problem for Atacama-Desert: The lack of "inhouse" inspiration to believe in this kind of technology.
Thomas Gearing
Thomas Gearing
June 7, 2011
Here is some enews from yesterday, you may have missed:
"Torresol Energy, a joint venture between Masdar – Abu Dhabi's leading future energy company and SENER – the leading Spanish engineering and construction firm, announced today the commissioning of its flagship 19.9MW Gemasolar Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) plant in Seville, Spain."
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
June 6, 2011
Yes. Concentrated Solar Thermal Power is gaining momentum.

Concentrated solar power systems use large mirrors and lenses to concentrate sunlight into a small beam to produce heat which can drive steam turbines.

Though solar power has huge potential, it is limited in use due to its high installation cost and its inability to produce energy at night or in the dark. Although costs have been decreasing due to the learning curve the inability to produce energy in the absence of sunlight is still the main problem. However these latest innovations are set to overcome the biggest obstacle in solar adoption.

Keahole Solar Power

Keahole Solar Power's new Holaniku Solar Farm on Hawaii's Big Island has set up thousands of micro-scale solar power concentrators to generate energy efficiently even in the dark. The plant can generate up to 2 MW of thermal energy which would be used to heat 8000 gallons of water to produce electricity. Even during the absence of sunlight, thermos like tanks are used to store heat and produce continuous energy.

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India

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Ucilia Wang

Ucilia Wang

Ucilia Wang is a California-based freelance journalist who writes about renewable energy. She previously was the associate editor at Greentech Media and a staff writer covering the semiconductor industry at Red Herring. In addition to Renewable...
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