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If Renewable Costs Are Down, Why the Financial Uncertainty?

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28 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 28
July 1, 2011
What we need is a Paul McCready (RIP) / Burt Rutan type character to take control of the solar field. Someone who sees through all the crap and nonsense spouted and comes up with elegant and low cost solutions. The person would need to be backed by a clear-thinking billionaire of the same mind, like Richard Branson - another man who does not take 'NO' for an answer. Above all, alternative energy needs to taken away from the US Government, Wall St. and the big oil companies who only want to control it for their own gain. Where are you Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Warren Buffet, Waltons and the like? Still stashing your cash under your pillows? You can't take it with you for God's sake. Do something for the country and for the world.
Comment
2 of 28
July 1, 2011
Average investors need to have corporations to buy stock in at a reasonable cost. Since, electric utilities are the only option, there aren't any pure plays in alternative energy other than those making the equipment.
Comment
3 of 28
July 1, 2011
Last I checked, Bill Gates was/is heavily invested in oil.
Comment
4 of 28
July 1, 2011
Not just oil, but an interesting allied industry as well.

http://techrights.org/2010/04/26/monsanto-boosted-by-gates/
Comment
5 of 28
July 2, 2011
The article points out some interesting ironies.

I see this a lot in other departments of life, especially politics. For example, while many democrats might be disappointed in Obama's (or Clinton's, or Carter's) refusal to say, close down the "School of Assassians" (Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation), or to initiate a dramatic reversal of our drug policy - to name just two issues, they fear Republicans so much they go along with it.

The same is true with energy production and the environment. While there is plenty to be excited about, the reality is that in the USA, most folks, even those who are well-off, are going to continue to be fence-sitters until the "whiplash of necessity" finally forces them to move. . . and that might still take decades to change.

Thus, while Obama may have pushed through tax credits and DOE grants for alternative energy (thus leveling a little bit the playing field with coal, oil, nuclear etc.), it makes little difference to those who are still stuck in old, antiquated ways of thinking.
Comment
6 of 28
July 3, 2011
Geoffry, you point out a big problem. Our country and most of the citizens are now so broke that we have sit around and hope that a philanthropic billionaire will want to take up the challenge.
Comment
7 of 28
July 3, 2011
Perhaps Brown energy companies can be given a tax break when their employee retirement investments contribute exclusively to new green energy resources. The bigger the investment, the bigger the tax cut. Also this can apply to Health care retirement investments into clean energy, physical fitness and nutrition.
Comment
8 of 28
July 3, 2011
Philanthropic billionaire has a nice ring to it, but in practice, it's a contradiction in terms. If they were truly philanthropic, they would not invest in the -industrial axes of evil and take their gains from the hides of serfs.

Nope, ordinary Davids are going to have to fight The Nature Conservancy and the other wolves in sheepskins, as difficult as it is to fight that second golden rule.

David and the motley crews have got to get to it with baling wire and duct tape and invent stuff that can heat real people when they cannot pay the utility barons.

Then again, it's time to go around again with local currencies. Search for the Australian school where the kids designed booyas to be conterfeit-resistant.

Then find the on-line video of the WIR bank in Switzerland, now having a resurgence for honest small- and medium-sized business-to-business trade.

There are hopeful work-arounds to counter the poor effects from the axes of evil.
Comment
9 of 28
July 3, 2011
Sustainable energy needs to be balanced with Sustainable employment.
Comment
10 of 28
July 5, 2011
More robotics may allow the freedom to pursue more religion, arts, humanities and sciences. Especially criminal science/social services.
Comment
11 of 28
July 5, 2011
Why is there financial uncertainty in the solar market ?

1. Solar costs are still not low enough

2. Government subsidies are totally unpredictable. Therefore most if not all rational investors will simply invest in other areas that have more stable and predicable returns. Solar subsidies are uncertain and always time limited - fossil fuel subsidies are permanent parts of the tax code.

Solar related stocks have reflected this and they have been the worst performing sector in the market for the last 18 months...
Comment
12 of 28
July 5, 2011
Natural gas prices drive the renewable market,and new technology has opened the door for enormous supplies.
In addition many hydro projects around Canada have led to an abundance of power flowing into the US.
Much for research needs to be placed in offshore projects which avoid the protests regarding environmental impact.Solar and wind give opponents large targets which are exploited by the railroads and coal companies.
Comment
13 of 28
July 5, 2011
fireofenergy,

I agree, but I can't reconcile a scenario whereby we don't cut down the last tree.

Humans could have a right to food, shelter, clothing, water & energy without sales tax and corporate profits. Where do you draw the line?

Without food and water, or the money to buy it, we're extinct in 4 days thus eliminating the consumers that drive profits.

I drive by homes with no basements and garage doors open to see piles of unsubsidized, hoarded crap and think about the hours worked, poor family relationships, money wasted, natural resources wasted, wars fought and 3rd world countries exploited.

I attended the local 4th of July parade predominately made up of politicians, thousands of dollars spent for military/police fly-bys and military heros riding in non-hybrid, diesel guzzling vessels of policy projection. Somehow clapping in front of my daughter felt like endorsement of the status quo and not supportive of personal liberty.

I thought to myself, in a city that promotes itself as green, for $1,000 why aren't there any solar contractor floats? Rainbow garbage disposal was the only 'green' float I saw. (Flowers, grass, picnic tables, food, sunshine and trash receptacles.)

The count of solar deals closed this year to date over last year may be down 10-15%. We're losing to ignorance and complacency from the commercials on the evening news & CNN telling us corporations are on top of it from an industry association called Clean Coal to promote coal mining, Exxon tar sands oil extraction being no worse than other oil extraction methods, jobs from cheap natural gas from fracking that is polluting our well water so we have to buy & transport bottled water, and drugs that give you hardons & cause diarrhea.

- Optimistically resolved to promote personal independence with solar energy. www.betterthanretirement.com Consumer education. www.freesolarwebinar.org And local solar contractor business development. www.pvsolarsalestraining.com
Comment
14 of 28
July 5, 2011
Meanwhile, according to a Systems-Thinking thread on Linked In, Las Vegas is worried about its business down.

Las Vegas could appeal to a whole different market by making itself a showcase of new-thinking, interactive renewable things.

In Portland, a friend who got a permit to trim a big oak branch threatening her house, told her neighbor (with the tree) as a courtesy.

The neighbor went into a hissy fit, called a city commissioner, and made cutting the branch an impossible hassle, so my friend gave up.

There are some places where cutting a tree is a major, non-happening kind of thing.

Then, there is Wangari Maathai, of Kenya, who got tortured for planing trees, until they gave her some major international prize, I think it was the Nobel.

There is always pushback.

I'm looking for some odd allies of that in the near future. Las Vegas has to have palm trees, for example. I do not think we are coming upon no-trees any time soon.
Comment
15 of 28
July 5, 2011
Uncertainty for RE rises when costs fall because legitimizing RE use exposes the myth that our current lifestyles are sustainable.

A dollar invested to drill for oil in Saudi Arabia or Iraq generates about $20 to $30 in value per month. The same dollar invested to access US oil produces perhaps $2 of value per month, since "easy" reserves are gone. A dollar invested in wind or solar now produces between a quarter cent and 2 cents of value per month. Obviously, every economy around the world is a reflection of these values.

The hundred million plus years invested in fossil fuels highly leverages everything we do today. Our lifestyles are based on $2 to $30 returns on a dollar but our ideas erroneously equate that to lifestyles that may soon have to rely on a quarter cent to 2 cent return. Even a 2 cent return would triple most of what we do with RE today but that still collapses a lifestyle that now quickly melts snow off of roofs in winter and chills people indoors in Miami during the summer.

The only thing that will really move RE development is high prices; really high prices! When we can no longer afford to melt snow off of roofs or overcool buildings, then we will take RE seriously. This decade will probably see $8 per gallon oil but the pain of paying that will probably be dwarfed by the pain of truly making our lifestyles more sustainable.
Comment
16 of 28
July 5, 2011
A lot of it is the unstable government position on RE.
Politically I am very pessimistic at least for national politics. If congress can't even agree on reducing subsidies for corporate jets and dirty energy (which is already showing very high profits), and refuses to charge for the true cost of energy (health, pollution, environmental damage etc.). Any bill that mentions capping carbon is DOA. For global warming the US "response" has been appalling. I don't see them doing anything substantial. If we are counting on the government, in ten years the US will be lucky to get a 4% market share, with the bulk going to China followed by Germany, and I sure another country will also pass us (Japan, Spain, Saudi Arabia?). Multiple state governments are doing a much better job (California is a good example).
Technologically, I am very optimistic. Within the last year solar record have been set in eight of eighteen categories (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/PVeff%28rev110408U%29.jpg) . If you took out Crystalline Silicon, then there would be record in eight of 14 categories, including most efficient solar cell (43.5% By Solar Junction) and most efficient single junction solar cell (27.6% by Alta Devices). I think other technologies on the horizon will push system efficiencies up like Sol Solution's Rainbow Concentrator.
Comment
17 of 28
July 5, 2011
First of all the utilities already have a functioning grid suitable for urban areas and suburbs.
Secondly, the discovery of new technology in natural gas brought competition to the Powder River Coal reserves.
Third, the railroads have little or no interest in helping the renewable innovations since they are totally dependent on coal,and have leases for gas pipelines(see Warren Buffett).
Lastly,renewables will work if you create demand with long term contracts with either large corporations or municipal governments.
Comment
18 of 28
July 5, 2011
We had a solar project for our county.
Environmentalists protested and will send it to court,delaying the construction after approval by local authorities.
Checks and balances work effectively in the Federal System and certainly work within state and local governments.
But, few if any state governments are willing to step forward,join their neighbors and begin a solar program similar to the Bonneville or TVA. If the benefits were shared and job creation shared,more solar and wind projects would be possible.
Comment
19 of 28
July 7, 2011
From: "Greg Nelson" To: bpayne37@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 5:34:21 PM
Subject: RE: heat rate for csp? geothermal heat rate

Don't know.

From: bpayne37@comcast.net [mailto:bpayne37@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 5:33 PM
To: Nelson, Greg
Cc: scholle1@gmail.com; gretchen@gis.nmt.edu; fmcurrie@cai-engr.com; CAI Info; Shirley A. Lancaster; shumard@epri.com; askepri@epri.com; clperry@epri.com; clibby@epri.com; zalan8587@q.com; ron chesser; homan@nmgco.com; steve casey; dru jones; sheila.shaffer@state.nm.us

Subject: Re: heat rate for csp? geothermal heat rate

Hello Greg,

Thanks for response.

You wrote, 'Heat rate is the amount of Btu's of fossil fuel burned to generate kWh's of electricity. Since CSPs don't typically burn any fossil fuel (unless they have supplemental firing), the term heat rate does not apply to CSPs.'

Then why does Geothermal have a Heat Rate of 29,050 BTU/kWh?

regards,

bill


http://www.prosefights.org/unmineable/unmineable.htm#scholle


Legal fight!

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/pnmrate.htm#motion3o
Comment
20 of 28
July 11, 2011
Monday July 11, 2011 07:31

bruce@afitplanet.com

http://www.prosefights.org/durango/durango.htm#afitplanet

Hello Mr Rayner,

Five technologies to watch prompts me to request your comments on Motion for Leave to Intervene in Case No. 11-00123-UT
http://www.prosefights.org/pnmrate/pnmrate.htm#motion3

Please ack if you receive this email.

Regards,

bill

distribution

junko.yoshida@ubm.com
george.leopold@ubm.com
nicholas.mokhoff@ubm.com
dylan.mcgrath@ubm.com
joe.desposito@penton.com
dlammers@austin.rr.com
jontitus@comcast.net

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
Comment
21 of 28
July 25, 2011
Let me introduce a little reality into the discussion. You say you don't want "greedy" profit-making companies to "control" energy. Without that profit motive, there are no jobs, no investment of any kind. If you complain about lowinterest rates on savings, then you can't complain about "greedy profit seekers," because you are one.
If I, or anyone else, put up money for a business, it is to get a return. State & Federal law, requires the company to consider my interests, before any other. They can't and won't invest in anything, without knowing what the profit is. Not just the profit for today, but next year and next decade. It's the same as you counting on what you will make during the same time period. Would you stay in a job, where you couldn't count on what you will make, from one year to the next?
People will buy "RE," when it's seen the same as the grid. Just as reliable, equally, or less expensive, and just as easy to get.
Comment
22 of 28
July 25, 2011
walter-daniels-40371: Sorry, I have to disagree. Bill/Melinda Gates and Warren Buffet have given $ billions to aid Africa. Where is the profit in that, to them? If you were really cynical, you might say he's hoping to help them live long enough to buy Microsoft products, but somehow I doubt that is the motive. Have you heard of philanthropy? On the basis of the old saying 'charity begins at home,' I see no reason why these home-grown multi-billionaires should not do something for their own country. Steve Jobs is another. I quote: 'Apple is now the world's second largest company and is boasting a positively mind boggling $76 billion in cash, one of the largest hoards in history.' Jobs, a man who may not have that long to live, is sitting on $76 billion, and there he is in the heart of Silicon Valley. Maybe he just hates America and feels no obligation to the people who got him to where he is now.
Comment
23 of 28
July 25, 2011
Geoffrey. The Gates gift of millions of dollars to Monsanto's Research Foundation is not a gift to Africa.

Monsanto wants to control the world's seeds, and and the Gates Foundation contributed to that effort.

The Gates are also tied in to oil and pharmaceuticals.

Photo ops about giving people shots are for audiences at home.

Independent researchers have data showing that small farms serve populations better, without killing the soil and without feminizing male fish in the rivers where runoff goes.

Here is a link. When the results from peer-reviewed independent research did not go their way, the chemical companies withdrew and put their connections into gear with anonymous essays.

http://independentsciencenews.org/environment/science-media-failed-the-iaastd/

The harm from this is difficult to calculate. If you know how to look, the data is out there. The Obamas have an organic garden at the White House. They are interested in their own health.

Nonetheless, Obama appointed Monsanto's revolving-door people to positions of power in the agencies which are supposed to regulate food safety.

The broken U.S. illness-maintenance system pays for the externalities and collateral damage that is epidemic in the U.S.

Independent scientists are finding more evidence of harm. One of the genes spliced into staple seeds confounds pests by interfering with digestive processes. We now have increasing serious food allergies and digestive diseases.

Endocrine disruptors are increasingly banned in countries with better access to good data, and direct action is happening against GM seeds.

The billionaires are putting their attention to establishing empires offshore.

If it is real science, an author can be found and who can answer questions about process.

The ailment Steve Jobs has may be related to environmental toxins. Not supporting bad science is a good thing.
Comment
24 of 28
July 25, 2011
Police Departments dislike releasing crime statistics when the numbers of crimes are dropping.It means they are overstaffed.
Educators hate statistics which demonstrate students are learning more and graduating more frequently than before.The same rule of overstaffed schools applies.Universities have several studies which point to severe shortages of graduate level students.
I just read where Bonneville did not want wind power since it might cause a surplus of power.Bonneville sells its power to the grid which often needs power because shortages occur and the growth of electrical technology increases and will increase even more if electric vehicles and buses become popular.
Costco is employing solar panels and many other major retail outlets are doing the same. Better glass is being employed,appliances are far more efficient.Pollution is dropping in many parts of the world.
But, the wind and solar companies always need more capital,and fear the most the possible inroads being made by nuclear,hydro,and tidal powered alternatives.
Comment
25 of 28
July 25, 2011
http://www.prosefights.org/pease/pease.htm#davis

Hello Mr Davis,

...

Publication of altenergy schemes in msm technical arouse suspicion that some of these articles might ploys to attract investor money.

Some of the schemes might not work for the reason that they may violate the second law of thermodynamics? Or have a negative EROEI?

Public Service Company of New Mexico [PNM] foil asserted that Heat Rate is inapplicable to solar and wind generation of electricity.


...
Comment
26 of 28
July 26, 2011
Petroleum sources have proven unreliable except for Canada which is now investigating the long term harm done to their Alberta environment.
The supply problems cause spikes in prices,so it is a very risky proposition to think investment in oil does not carry dangers.
The new needy nations remain located in Africa,Asia,and South America.
The cost of petroleum has created such trade imbalances they must dilute their currency to pay off the debts. This problem causes hardships,but also offers an opportunity to those who can provide renewable resources like wind,tidal,or solar power.
Comment
27 of 28
July 26, 2011
We shall see if Tata of India can test and scale this up quickly.

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/2011/03/28/mit-chemist-daniel-nocera-announces-artificial-leaf-goal-to-make-every-home-a-power-station/

I don't understand why they don't combine the elements into a storable sugar, as actual leaves do, but whatever, if they can keep the gases separates until they decide to put them together, fine.

I just hope they get to scaling this, with all due haste.
Comment
28 of 28
August 4, 2011
Sundance calibrated solar cell results.

http://www.prosefights.org/pease/sundance.htm

'Believe nothing you hear or read and only half of what you see.'
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Meg Cichon

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About: As associate editor of RenewableEnergyWorld.com, I coordinate and edit feature stories, contributed articles, news stories, opinion pieces and blogs. I also res... more »

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