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A Buoyant Future for Floating Wind Turbines?

An update on floating offshore wind power platforms. Reducing costs remains a key challenge.

Andrew Williams, Contributor
May 03, 2011  |  53 Comments

In recent years there have been two significant trends in the wind industry: developers seeking higher quality wind resources and turbines growing in size. In response to these developments, the idea of 'floating' offshore wind turbines is becoming increasingly popular. Because they float, these turbines can provide developers with better access to offshore wind resources, unconstrained by water depth. Done right, they include a support structure able to accommodate today's large, and tomorrow's even larger turbines.

Technology

Instead of relying on physical foundations like bottom-fixed turbines, floating platforms are attached to the seabed by mooring lines.  This means that they can be viably deployed in much deeper water – good news for countries with deepwater coastlines like Norway, Portugal and Greece.

There are three main types of floating wind platforms.  One type, known as ‘ballast stabilized,’ uses spar buoy platforms with catenary mooring drag-enabled anchors.  A second, called ‘Tension Leg Platforms’ or ‘Mooring Line Stabilized Platforms,’ is attached to the seabed with suction pile anchors.  The third type is the ‘Buoyancy Stabilized’ platform, which employs a ‘barge’ type device with catenary mooring lines.

Advantages

A key advantage of using floating wind platforms is that they allow developers access to previously inaccessible waters where there is stronger yet less turbulent winds – helping to reduce the overall cost of wind energy.

Another benefit is that floating platforms can generally be commissioned and assembled at the quayside, without the need for heavy-lift jackup or dynamic positioning (DP) vessels, further reducing the cost and risk of deployment activities.

“Eliminating offshore lifting operations also provides for decreased weather window restrictions on installation,” says Craig Andrus, Senior VP – Europe at Principle Power.

The fact that foundations are not necessary with floating technology also means that piling activities and sea life disturbance can be minimized - greatly reducing negative environmental impacts.  Moreover, reduced geotechnical requirements mean that core sampling is only needed to test the seabed ahead of appropriate anchor selection, as opposed to the necessity of core sampling at every pile site.

Current Initiatives

In order to test the viability of floating wind turbines and support structures a number of pilot initiatives are currently underway at various locations around the world. 

Hywind

Developed by Norwegian energy company Statoil ASA, Hywind is the world’s first full-scale floating wind turbine.  Located around ten kilometers off the southwest coast of Norway, the structure itself is a steel cylinder, similar to a spar buoy, filled with a ballast of water and rocks, which extends 100 meters beneath the sea’s surface.  Attached to the seabed by a three-point mooring spread, it can be employed at ocean depths of 120 to 700 meters.

The turbine itself comes from Siemens, but the ‘floater’ was built by engineering specialists Technip – which also undertook all the offshore installation work.  A submarine power line, laid by Nexans Norway, reaches the mainland near Skudeneshavn at the southern end of Karmøy, where local grid operator Haugaland Kraft operates a receiving station.

Although the Hywind turbine has been generating electricity to the Norwegian grid since late September 2009, its main objective is to test the impact of wind and waves on the structure over a two-year period.  The results have so far been promising and indicate the long-term viability of this type of floating turbine technology.

“There is no reason to believe it shouldn’t eventually be cost competitive with ‘bottom-fixed’ approaches,” says Hywind Project Manager, Sjur Bratland.

Following the initial test period, Statoil intends to start work on commercialising the concept – with the ultimate goal of reducing costs so that floating wind power can compete in the global energy market.  According to Bratland, the company has already identified a few potential sites outside Norway.

“We are looking for feasibility in Scotland and [the] U.S. in the time frame of 2015-2017,” he says.

Blue H

Dutch company Blue H Technologies has devised a ‘Submerged Deepwater Platform’ (SDP).  Essentially a modified form of a Tension Leg Platform, SDP’s are made of a buoyant hollow body that is ‘semi-submerged’ in water by chains or tethers, which are in turn connected to a counterweight on the sea bed – thus creating the necessary uplifting force to keeps the chains constantly tensioned.

In 2008, the company installed a 75% scale prototype SDP with a small wind turbine in 113-metre deep water some 11 nautical miles off the coast of Southern Italy, near the site of the future offshore Tricase project.  After 6 months at sea, the unit was decommissioned early in 2009.

In 2008, Blue H started engineering a second proof of concept, a tension-legged platform for a 2-MW floating wind turbine.  The concept is slated for completion next year, when the company intends to install it in its Tricase wind farm.  This will be followed by the deployment of a larger pre-production floating turbine in 2014, combining Blue H’s platform with a 3rd party offshore turbine.

In the UK, Blue H also led a consortium of companies involved in Project Deepwater, a two-year project that ran from 2009-2010 and looked at the feasibility and costs of generating electricity using offshore wind turbines mounted on a floating, tension legged platform in water depths of 70 to 300 meters.

In addition, the company is currently undertaking extensive research work with partners Timolor Leroux & Lotz in what it calls Project DIWET (Deepwater Innovative Wind Energy Technology).  The project, located off the coast of Brittany, France, consists of a floating platform concept that is anchored using rigid taut lines.

WindFloat

In the U.S., technology company Principle Power has devised WindFloat, an integrated system, consisting of a semi-submersible floating platform capable of supporting commercial offshore horizontal axis wind turbines.  The system utilizes drag embedment anchors and a conventional catenary mooring and is designed to accommodate any multi-megawatt offshore turbine.

Principle Power, alongside partners EDP, InovCapital, Vestas and others, has recently signed an agreement for the deployment of the first full-scale WindFloat, with a Vestas V80 – 2.0 MW turbine, off the coast of Portugal later this year.

Testing at the grid-connected site in Aguçadoura will focus specifically on performance validation of the WindFloat and turbine integration, as well as commissioning, decommissioning and O&M studies.

“From a project perspective, Portugal has a rich maritime culture, a history of embracing marine renewables and unfortunately, or fortunately, a dearth of commercially viable shallow water sites for offshore wind deployment,” says Andrus.

“WindFloat can be regarded as an economically viable competitor against conventional concepts at sites with water depths ranging from 40 to 50 m,” he adds.

For the near future, Principle Power is focused on deploying WindFloat systems in all ‘primary markets’ - namely Western Europe, the UK and the U.S. on a commercial basis.  

“The Portuguese prototype serves as validation of the technology, proof of commercial viability and a test bed for optimization of the integrated system,” says Andrus.

HiPRwind

HiPRwind is the world’s largest publicly-funded research project to develop deep-water offshore wind technology.  Led by the German Fraunhofer research institute, the five-year €20-million initiative combines the expertise of no less than nineteen companies, including Acciona Energy, ABB Schweiz, Bureau Veritas, Angewandten Forschung and Norges Teknisk.

A central objective of HiPRwind is to deliver a fully functional floating wind turbine installation at approximately one tenth of the scale of future commercial systems, deployed in real sea conditions. 

“The idea behind the project is to analyze current approaches for floating turbines, pick the best one, build a downscaled model and test it,” says project director Andreas Reuter, Professor of Wind Energy at Fraunhofer IWES.

“The turbine used is a modern pitch-regulated variable-speed turbine.  The main question will be the type of floating structure to be used - here we have a couple of options,” he adds.

Key focus areas will include reliability, remote maintenance and grid integration, with a particular emphasis on how floating wind technology can help to overcome the financial and technological limitations of current wind turbines and support structures.  In doing so, the project team will research improvements in rotor blade designs, structural health monitoring systems, reliable power electronics and control systems. 

Ultimately, the aim is to bridge the gap in technology development between small-scale tank testing and full-scale offshore deployment and reduce the risks and costs of commercialising deep-water wind technology.

Since the project has only just begun, Reuter explains that there are no results yet.  However, he is keen to stress that the cost structure of floating turbines is the key challenge. 

“The floating body is extremely expensive compared to a classic onshore foundation.  On the advantage side we have the higher winds offshore, no visual impact and complaining neighbours and the possibility to ship the turbines back into the harbour for maintenance,” he says.

Other Initiatives

A French consortium, led by wind power specialist Nass & Wind, has confirmed it will be installing a full-scale demonstration model of its WinFlo floating turbine off the coast of southern Brittany, near Lorient port.  The Winflo is an integrated floating wind turbine on a semi-submersible platform with an innovative anchoring system ‘suitable for all seabed types’ in excess of 50 meters.  Nass & Wind plan to manufacture a pre-series version of the machine and market it from 2015 onwards

Also in France, engineering company Technip and wind-power startup Nenuphar have recently announced plans to launch the Vertiwind project to test a pre-industrial prototype of a vertical-axis offshore floating wind turbine.  Land-based testing of a 0.5-scale prototype is currently underway at the ‘Carrieres’ site, in Boulonnais.  Once this phase is complete, testing will commence at sea.

In addition there are two other interesting projects being managed by Norwegian companies.  The WindSea concept is based on a semi-submersible platform with three turbines and mooring lines connected to a detachable turret.  Following the completion of a two-year design phase, there are plans to build a WindSea prototype in 2012.  Meanwhile, Sway is a wind power concept that is fixed using a Spar-type float and anchored to the seabed by a taut anchorage system - allowing it to face in different directions depending on the direction of the wind.  Last month, the company deployed the prototype off the coast of Norway, with transport to site and a full test program scheduled to start later this spring.

Looking Ahead

So, how long might it be before floating wind turbines are commercialized – and what challenges must be overcome before this happens?

According to Andrus, the commercialization of floating wind turbines will certainly come much sooner than previously anticipated only a few years ago.  This is because the challenges, disadvantages and hidden long-term costs of fixed structures are becoming more evident and better understood. 

“We believe that the sizing and design flexibility, turbine ‘agnostitcity,’ logistical ease of deployment and decreased risk of the WindFloat is an economically viable alternative and solution for offshore wind industry,” says Andrus.

“That being said, more demonstrations, like ours later this year, need to take place in an effort to prove bankability and track record to the wind industry as a whole,” he adds.

Reuter, however, predicts that full commercialization will take a little longer, perhaps up to a decade.

“[We] will be busy improving the systems for quite a while - including some tests with demonstrators. Going commercial is probably realistic for the years after 2020 - cost is the key issue,” he says.

53 Comments

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Minwoo Kim
Minwoo Kim
December 16, 2012
Obama's energy policy is right. Japan's FiT in July is among the highest in the world. Japan's FiT is shaking the renewable energy market. New solutions will be showed in Japan. This is it!
Floating Wind Turbine is one of the best solutions for USA and UK. U.K has more install places around its shores than any other in the world. USA has Atlantic Coast. As you know, they have to reduce vibration to install Floating Wind Turbines on the sea. Because, it makes many kinds of problems! Vibration’s caused by wind, waves and external forces. New Floating Body Stabilizer for Floating Wind Turbines has been created in South Korea. The Floating Body Stabilizers generate drag force immediately when Floating Wind Turbines are being rolled and pitched on the water. Recently, this Floating Body Stabilizers have been used to reduce vibration of Floating Solar Panels in South Korea. You can see New Floating Body Stabilizer videos in YouTube. http://youtu.be/O2oys_YHhCc, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA_xFp5ktbU&feature=youtu.be.
shamil ayntrazi
shamil ayntrazi
March 30, 2012
OFF SHORE WIND FARMS _ Cont'd
V. Deep Sea Cold Water for use as Air Conditioning medium (SWAC). Injecting compressed air into the top section of a deep water pipe develops a positive head at the cold water intake at 800m below MSL and forces the cold water up the pipe where it is de-aerated and pumped as cold water to Air Handling Units.
VI. A "Construction Unit" fixed and anchored to the sea bed provides a dry deck and enclosed space for all above equipment.
These systems were developed as a Coordinated Offshore Energy Extraction system (COEE), and are detailed at www.renewableenrgypumps.com
NOVELTIES
There are a number of novelties provided by the COEE system. To name a few:
1. The direct drive method of wave energy extraction using infinite line without limitation on the wave heights. The only restriction is the height of the CU dry deck above MSL.
2. The arrangement of the "Construction Units" in a V configuration to achieve wave power output leveling and to reduce the power ripple over the whole wave cycle to a to minimum.
3. Providing medium size 1.5 MW wind turbines with its generator installed at the base of the WT support at the dry deck of the offshore Construction Unit.
4. Using the CU to support tidal turbines with direct drive to operate respective water pumps and/or electric generators located at the dry deck, thus reducing support costs. Also removing the electric generator from underwater installation which is the present way of installation. .
5. Providing an offshore Construction Unit to allow all equipment to be installed at a dry deck in an enclosed space.
6. Installation of a water turbine to extract energy from the Lee side of the wave, thus enhancing wave energy extraction and improving power leveling over the whole wave cycle.
7. Deep Sea Cold Water extraction.
8. The roof area of the CU is used to install PV cells to extract Solar Energy.
shamil ayntrazi
shamil ayntrazi
March 30, 2012
BRIEF SUMMARY
In the spirit of collective knowledge, and the quest to find a way to extract renewable energy from the sea, the following information are provided, hoping it helps others to come up with a viable and economical wave energy extraction system.
Once it is planned to extract offshore energy, then it is wise to explore all available offshore renewable energies and devise a system for maximum utilization of the respective sea surface area.
This leads to installing a Coordinated Offshore Energy Extraction system as shown in Figure-8 to extract the following offshore renewable energy sources:
I. Wave Energy Extraction where Potential and Kinetic energies are extracted.
a. Potential Energy is extracted using Buoyant Floats to directly drive water pumps or electric generators.
b. Kinetic Energy is extracted using water turbines installed below lowest instantaneous sea level at the wave Lee Side to directly drive water pumps or electric generators to extract energy from the Lee side of the wave.
c. The small quantity of water at high head is collected and fed into a Hydro Turbo Generator.
d. The electric power generated by the generators is 3-phase AC using variable speed Isosync. Generators connected in parallel and fed to a step up transformer.
II. Tidal Energy is extracted by means of water turbines driving a water pump or electric generator.
III. Wind Energy using medium size wind turbines (1.5MW), and transferring the torque from the Nacelle at the top of the WT support to the electric generator installed at a dry deck.
IV. Solar Energy using the roof of the offshore "Construction Unit" to install PV cells where DC current is generated and fed to a common bus and inverted to AC voltage and fed to a step up transformer.
william payne
william payne
February 1, 2012
No response so far from

http://www.prosefights.org/fplwind/nextera.htm#hello1

So we're looking at natural gas and earthquakes

http://www.prosefights.org/nmgco/intervene/eia/eiagas.htm#sweeney

while we wait for a PROMISED response.
Bram Carrette
Bram Carrette
February 1, 2012
My idea is that for the moment offshore windpower will not be as interesting as onshore (even with floating devices) just because the price is to high compared with on land turbines. Also its a lot more expenscive to do maintenance and repairworks on them. And the enviroment is much more agressive, always risk of corrosion, even with the best materials, a turbine who is standing still at sea, and is not able to yaw its nacelle in the wind suffers alot more than a urbine on land. Also alot of counties can't handle the power all off the turbines produce, just because the net is to weak. Ok there is alot of space and wind at sea, but what with all off the energy if the net can't take it.
Colleen Plummer
Colleen Plummer
July 28, 2011
How many water tributaries do we have in the United States? Capture that economical energy and the shorebased wave energy and save the tax payers $$$. It's easy to spend $ when it's not yours and your the one benefiting.Produce energy locally and retain more energy instead of losing a great percentage during tranmission if you serious about solving the energy problem and JOBS.
william payne
william payne
May 13, 2011
Friday May 13, 2011 08:22

http://www.prosefights.org/pnmratehearing/pnmratehearing.htm#noon

Citizens' Alliance For Responsible Energy (CARE)

marita@responsiblenergy.org.

Hello Ms Noon,

Mr Jake Rudisill kindly volunteered information on Heat Rate.

From: "Jake Rudisill" j.rudisill@meridianenergyusa.com
To: bpayne37@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:37:20 PM
Subject: Heat Rate misconception

Mr. Payne,

The definition of heat rate is not the heat content of just the fossil fuel inputting the conversion system—it is the conversion efficiency of the system with whatever is the heat input.

Every plant's heat rate can thus be calculated.

...
william payne
william payne
May 10, 2011
From: "Jake Rudisill"
To: bpayne37@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:37:20 PM
Subject: Heat Rate misconception


Mr. Payne,



The definition of heat rate is not the heat content of just the fossil fuel inputting the conversion system—it is the conversion efficiency of the system with whatever is the heat input.



Every plant's heat rate can thus be calculated.



Geothermal energy has a very high heat rate because it utilizes a relatively low grade of heat source—at its best, 350F, 100 psi steam, and thus 1200 btu/lbm. In a modern gas-fired boiler, steam is at 1000F and 2500 psi, with a much higher heat content of around 1770 btu/lbm.



http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_supersteam.htm



http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/heat_rate.html



heat rate

A measurement used in the energy industry to calculate how efficiently a generator uses heat energy. It is expressed as the number of BTUs of heat required to produce a kilowatt-hour of energy. Operators of generating facilities can make reasonably accurate estimates of the amount of heat energy a given quantity of any type of fuel, so when this is compared to the actual energy produced by the generator, the resulting figure tells how efficiently the generator converts that fuel into electrical energy.



http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/power-plant-efficiency-d_960.html



Heat Rate (Energy Efficiency)

Overall thermal performance or energy efficiency for a power plant for a period can be defined as

?hr = H / E (1)

where

?hr = heat rate (Btu/kW, kJ/kW)

H = heat supplied to the power plant for a period (Btu, kJ)

E = energy output from the power plant in the period (kWh)
Lawrence Carroll
Lawrence Carroll
May 10, 2011
Clee and Billp37 have great points -- the same point I have made on other posts on REW (though not specifically about roofs I don't think): Without proper housing etc. infrastructure, all renewable energy (or even non-renewable energy for that matter) is in peril.

The building industry still doesn't get it -- owners want buildings where the roofs, plumbing, and other basic structure holds up over time. Why wouldn't we? When builders, architects and others in the trade get it, it will be because they understand the golden rule -- do unto others as you would have them do unto you! If YOU don't like it when a "small" plumbing or roofing problem causes thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars of damage and immense delays and suffering, then do the best you can to make things that last and that are non-toxic and energy-conserving.

This isn't a judgement against anyone, but an attempt to remind those in the trade of the basic reason for having a "home" in the first place!
william payne
william payne
May 9, 2011
New Mexico encourages solar generation of electricity ... for business reasons.

'In addition, the parties to the stipulation agreed not to oppose PNM's planned rider to recover renewable energy costs — most of which are related to PNM's plans to add 22 megawatts of solar energy to its system ... '

ABQ J prevents direct link to its articles.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=groups+protest+pnm+case&cp=23&qe=Z3JvdXBzIHByb3Rlc3QgcG5tIGNhc2U&qesig=TU1ctIRGt-8P_xH-KxXEgA&pkc=AFgZ2tleHRs7oSg_EgI2rZZ_yDtLg3AoVfRsEBtQ3XR3myIa_r1X9MmoRHngaIVcEtm829PjfZS7QXaob0_32IAfr37wvNB_3Q&pf=p&sclient=psy&rlz=1R2ADRA_enUS416&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=groups+protest+pnm+case&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=ff7c59a60f6387a5
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 9, 2011
Christopher, you wrote, "In response to several posts, roofs are favoured places for solar energy only because the collectors are currently too expensive.

What? Total non sequitur. Here's another: garages are favored places for automobiles only because the automobiles are currently too expensive.

But this does make sense: mouths are favored places for feet because many people speak then think.
Christopher Lee
Christopher Lee
May 9, 2011
@Clee: my point was, and always has been, thet RE will not really take off until the investment cost becomes low enough that sub-optimal locations become economically feasible. People don't want shady doorstep salespeople messing around with their roof, but there might be more consumer interest in something that can be fastened to a wall or used as a garden decoration. We need something that can be bought with the groceries, and not necessarily highly efficient in the engineering sense. After all, our medium-sized garden collects a good megawatt on a sunny afternoon and we don't need quite that much power.
Christopher Lee
Christopher Lee
May 9, 2011
In response to several posts, roofs are favoured places for solar energy only because the collectors are currently too expensive.
Derek Boyle
Derek Boyle
May 9, 2011
Floating Power Plant's: Poseidon Wind and Wave technology floating platform
http://www.floatingpowerplant.com/
"commercial platform could generate up to 50GWh/year"

http://www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2011/04/floating-power-to-build-wind-wave.html
"A new Oregon company will announce Thursday plans to commercialize and manufacture floating power plant technology that generates electricity from waves and wind.

Floating Power Inc. is a joint venture between Lake Oswego-based boutique merchant bank BridgeWorks Capital and Floating Power Plant Inc., a Danish company that spent the last 12 years developing and testing the power-generating platform called "Poseidon.""
william payne
william payne
May 8, 2011
Roofs in New Mexico last about 8 years.

Then they have to be replaced.

Photovoltaic panels and ballast would then have to be removed.

Weight of solar panels and associated ballast may cause premature roof failure?

Expensive.

Knowledeable in solar thermal [water heating] advised against roof mounts. We assume same applies to photovoltaic.

See roof photovoltaic proposal

http://home.comcast.net/~bpayne37/solar/loslunassolar/loslunassolar.htm
Mehul Suthar
Mehul Suthar
May 8, 2011
Definitely, the deepwater technology has been quite successful like in India ONGC has already a seawater installed wind turbines.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 8, 2011
Richard, you wrote, ''If turbines can be built in port and not offshore that becomes a big saving in installation costs.

Simple moorings are cheaper to install than fixed turbine bases.''

Because of the need for buoyant structure, there is a lot more steel in floating turbines. Simply stated, they are way more expensive. I am doubtful that cheaper installation costs will make up the difference.

You also wrote, ''If current jack-ups and installation vessels get booked up with current fixed turbine projects then floating turbines could have their place immediately.''

To me, the more obvious solution is to build purpose-built installation vessels and exploit shallow-water sites first. If a region is serious about offshore wind power, then why start at a disadvantage.

To me, the idea of borrowing jack-ups or other specialized equipment from the oil patch is a recipe for ruining the economics of offshore wind. If a sufficient commitment is made to offshore wind, developing the needed installation infrastructure will quickly follow.
william payne
william payne
May 7, 2011
I have about two weeks to register.

Knowledge of Betz' law may cause me not to register.
william payne
william payne
May 7, 2011
New Mexico wind power event

Annual Windmill Technology Certification Workshop

New Mexico State University
Windmill Technology Certification Workshop
June 2, 3 and 4 2011. Thursday - Saturday.
Las Cruces, New Mexico
575-646-1130

Come see us at the 2011 Annual Windmill Technology Certification Workshop, June 2, 3 and 4 2011, on the campus of New Mexico State University in Las Cruces, NM.

The cost is $200.00 Per Person

Contact Dr. Carlos Rosencrans at 575-646-1130, or e-mail crosencr@nmsu.edu, for complete workshop registration information.

Classes will be taught by associates of New Mexico State University and The Aermotor Windmill Co. of San Angelo, Texas. Students will be schooled in assembly, repair and installation of Aermotor Windmills along with in-depth instruction on proper procedures and safety of the water well and pumping cylinders.

Instructors Dr. Carlos Rosencrans and Craig Runyan will be joined by our own Bob Bracher and Brad Mitchell for this intensive 3-day workshop. Browse through the photos below from a prior workshop. New Mexico State University's teaching facilities are first-rate and the instructors are the best in the business.

http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/

Dr Rosencrans phoned. He emphsized that class is not about wind turbine generation of electricity.

http://www.prosefights.org/coal/coal.htm
richard Annett
richard Annett
May 7, 2011
They missed us....Far Offshore Renewables.

Good arguements going on above - but a couple of additional notes;
If turbines can be built in port and not offshore that becomes a big saving in installation costs.

Simple moorings are cheaper to install than fixed turbine bases.

If current jack-ups and installation vessels get booked up with current fixed turbine projects then floating turbines could have their place immediately.
ferrand stobart
ferrand stobart
May 7, 2011
I have never yet understood that whereas in [say] car engines, devices based on a circle [pistons] having an area for energy income but a volume for cost, have a reatively small maximum economic diameter.

What is being done to develop "arrays" of small rotors instead of the single large diameter variety ? Would not this approach be more cost effective ?

Linked In profile http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/ferrand-stobart/11/b31/b88

see Bockris and contrawind files on my Linked In Box file
Christopher Lee
Christopher Lee
May 7, 2011
This story has been running for a while, so I'll try to make a general comment.

There has been discussion of the physical space occupied by RE facilities, and by implication of the requirement for a high density of energy with respect to space and/or time. Many solutions involve efficient turbines, the design of which was established in the 1800's by some very clever people. All this is going rather against Nature.

Consequently, current RE installations have to be in particularly favourable locations, and wind turbines have to be tall. As with wind turbines, marine installations capture only a small proportion of the available cross section of fluid flow. There is too much emphasis on locally-concentrated power.

This raises the question of whether we should be thinking of more spread-out solutions adapted to a dilute energy source.

Instead of marine turbines a few metres in diameter, you could imagine a sort of curtain (like a fishing net) attached to cables forming a loop that could be several kilometres in circumference. Variable slats or turbine-blade-shaped openings in the curtain would create tension in the cables. OK, as I'm not an engineer it's easy to invent crazy schemes. However, I'm fed up with the current lack of engineering imagination. France doesn't just have wind farms - they're more like forests (Beauce region)... and output is approaching 2 percent of nation energy requirements. Great.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 7, 2011
Alex, your numbers are completely wrong. If you are curious about the energy payback of wind turbines, there's plenty of reliable data. Try: Energy Balance of Wind Turbines http://www.wind-works.org/articles/EnergyBalanceofWindTurbines.html Payback is 4.5 to 8.4 months depending on the size and wind strength.

You wrote, ''Wind, being a 2nd-order solar-energy-derived source, is a very inefficient power source, apart from just its variability.''

This is wrong. The variability of wind is far less of a grid trauma than one fossil or nuke plant tripping off unexpectedly. Similarly, demand variability is the greater headache for grid operators.

You wrote, ''since windmills in the sea are already problematic for navigation, storms, whales, noise, tourism, power loss, maintenance, etc., why would anyone consider 'floating' platforms of them even farther out?''

How so, Alex? Are the numerous oil and gas platforms less of a hazard? What about navigation aids? Have you heard of shipping lanes?

The fact is, for a given amount of power, wind turbines require the least amount of land compared to dirty fuel sources or other common renewable sources. In general the area around a wind turbine retains its former uses (agriculture, prairie, forest, ocean).
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
May 7, 2011
Aircraft will need combustible fuel for many years into the future. 'RE' is a blanket term that suggests lack of thought or willingness to think. Indeed there are 3 legs to a stable energy future: a) efficiency -- we waste >50% of generation now; b) local solar PV/water-heating on existing structures (DG) -- there's more human structure on earth now (>2% of land) than needed to generate all peak demand, even with current 20% eff. cells; and c) safe nuclear power -- Thorium in molten salt is great, with thousands of years worth of Th all over the earth (India's western beaches are ~4% Thorium).

There's no need for massed wind and its serious negative environmental effects. No need for wave either. The rest are miniscule in potential -- China would need to build 100 Three Gorges dams just to meet current power needs. So, some RE's are wise, some scams.

Nuclear, however, is the highest power-density source we can obtain, and done right, as we were told to do in 1962, it's safer than any other energy-production method, both for people and the environment. The Thorium breeding cycle in salt achieves all the goals we could possibly want, in terms of millennia of availability, safety and reliability. This is why China , India and others are copying what we did in the 1960s at ORNL, but dropped the ball on in the Cold War (bombs were more important than safe energy)
http://tinyurl.com/25mgqkd
http://tinyurl.com/yb2qgex

Fission energy is given to us (stored in heavy nuclei) by supernovae billions of years before earth itself. <15 grams of Thorium bred to Uranium inside a reactor produces all the energy an American can use in a decade -- line up 5 pennies and think about that level of power density. Then consider we've 3200 tons of Thorium Nitrate saved away in a pit in Nevada -- a decade of all US electric generation.

Nothing new about it. Fermi, Teller, Wigner, etc. all knew this was our safe energy future 60 years ago.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
May 6, 2011
As for f...745's "proofs", quite right about tonnage of CO2 per investment in coal, steel, etc. But he/she fails to multiply it out for wind vs anything else. Since wind's power density is <1/2MW/acre, 'spending 600 tons of steel & 70 truckloads of concrete to get one 3MW windmill up, is so much greater than a simple 20% eff. solar array on an equal roof area of buildings, that it must be a joke. And, PV is heading toward 40%, as ,military & space folks already have. The wind joke only gets more laughable.

The NREL 3MW machine proudly being erected can in no way match the power output, or reliability, or reduced CO2 from an equivalent solar array anywhere. And f....745" can figure that out, just as can anyone else.

Love those subsidized wastes!

Folks who've been concerned with global warming for decades, aren't impressed by newbies with 'green' scams, depending on taxpayer $.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
May 6, 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI is a good example of a nonsequitur, certainly for wind power, as the criticism in the text indicates. And, there's no escaping the reality that wind power density is far less than solar or nuclear, measured volumetrically or per square meter of consumed space.

Interestingly, China's great western wind farms are already seeing a negative impact of climate change lowering the pressure difference across the entire region. So, what cost to assign to having to tear down & move the gear to a new site? And then we have the arising realities of unforeseen costs, such as the risk just reported in AAAS Science oto our midwestern farmers whose billions of crop $ are beginning to be threatened by insects not eaten by bats killed by newly sprouting windmills. Who will pay for that? Part of a new tax caused by wind power? The accurate engineering & environmental picture of wind power is of a typical 'green' scam.

Just for contrast, a 1400-acre mine between Idaho & Montana contains enough Thorium to fuel 1000 years of US energy needs, including vehicular. The only reason we have these goofy xyz 'farms' of wasteful, low power-density, subsidized fads is that we screwed up in 1962 and didn't follow the very good advice given JFK & Congress...
http://energyfromthorium.com/pdf/CivilianNuclearPower.pdf

The rest of the reason is that we just love scams, especially if we're the subsidized 'investor' and we know others just want to feel everything's ok without critical thought or having to get up off the couch.
;]
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/a-less-mighty-wind
www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21tttransmission.html?_r=1&hpw
william payne
william payne
May 6, 2011
Windmills are fine for remote sites, farmers, etc., but when the amount of coal required to make their steel is computed, along with their other resource-hungry demands, windmills make no sense for mass power generation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/prccrd/schott/schott.htm

Three sources of information:

1 What you hear - talking heads on TV.
2 What you read - MSM and books.
3 What you observe first hand.

Seeking Alpha post advised, 'never trust anything you hear or read ...and only half of what you see'.
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
May 6, 2011
Billp37 is right about solar electric rapidly increasing, but wrong about the installation/remediation dangers, especially in the case of DG solar (locally distributed on existing structures).

Just as for wind 'farms', cleanup at obsolescence has to be built into the original investment cost, just as nukes pay a decommissioning cost per kW capacity. Solar has the great advantage over wind of being able to glean well over 2MW/acre from the sun, when cell efficiencies continue their improvement. Wind, at peak, gives occasional bursts of 1/2MW per acre. And, wind's diurnal averages are pitiful...read David MacKay, etc., or watch Cal ISO's real-time reporting...
www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

With current, 20%-efficient solar panels, and DG, there's no need at all for windmills or desert solar, with all their environmental costs and permanent transmission-loss taxes the 'investors' don't care about.

All silicon solar-PV cells are easily removed when obsolete and recycled. There's no danger of contamination locally. If manufacturers are dumping wastes, then that needs to be fixed, as in all industries, including the industries wind depends on: coal, steel, concrete...(yes, ask Siemens how much coal it takes to make the steel for one of their 5MW machines).

In Calif., we still have windmills left over from the '70s that 'investors' abandoned and counties made no requirement to clean up. Our wind 'legacy' is no pretty. Similar for some of the absurd desert solar stuff from that era. The 'renewables' industry needs to grow up and clean up, just as mom used to say.
;]
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
May 6, 2011
jaja could you please send me the url or address to this showing or illustration?
iamfound74@gmail.com
Dr. A. Cannara
Dr. A. Cannara
May 6, 2011
Gotta love those feed-in tariff subsidies -- they draw all sorts of 1950's Popular Mechanics ideas and 'investors' out!

Wind, being a 2nd-order solar-energy-derived source, is a very inefficient power source, apart from just its variability (which European and American grid managers are already having problems with). And, since windmills in the sea are already problematic for navigation, storms, whales, noise, tourism, power loss, maintenance, etc., why would anyone consider "floating" platforms of them even farther out?

We'll await the inevitable 'freeing' of one in a major storm, or the first collision with shipping. And, though developers don't care, we all pay the price of permanent taxation via higher maintenance & transmission losses.

Windmills are fine for remote sites, farmers, etc., but when the amount of coal required to make their steel is computed, along with their other resource-hungry demands, windmills make no sense for mass power generation.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 6, 2011
More on the Principle Power in iniative.

Innovative Deepwater Platform Aims to Harness Offshore Wind and Wave Power http://blog.energy.gov/blog/2011/03/28/innovative-deepwater-platform-aims-harness-offshore-wind-and-wave-power

"Principle Power, Inc, of Seattle is using $1.4 million in funding from the Department of Energy's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy to develop an innovative technology with the potential to generate electricity from the powerful winds and strong waves off our coasts. The company's device, known as the WindWaveFloat, will combine their floating offshore wind turbine platform with wave energy convertors, so the system can simultaneously generate electricity from the wind and the waves. ..... "
Sean O'Callaghan
Sean O'Callaghan
May 6, 2011
Don't confuse researching a concept with achieving the endgoal.

The Poseidon has potential yes, but the only testing so far has been in very sheltered conditions and with very small turbines installed. Furthermore, a device which is self referencing, as it is, will be inherently non-stable. A factor which has a severe impact on turbine fatigue. It's a decent concept but it's far from "developed" just yet.

As for Principle Power, as of November last year at least, their Windfloat concept hadn't had a WEC device integrated to it yet - they're merely examining the concept. The TLP based nature of their platform is certainly a more stable platform for wind but the configuration is ambitious and will likewise require significant research yet.

Both companies are non-the-less to be applauded for taking the initiative.
Jason Busch
Jason Busch
May 6, 2011
In regard to combining offshore wind and marine hydro kinetic, both Principle Power and Floating Power Plant (a Danish company), have already done it. Floating Power Plant, which just announced that it will form a U.S. based subsidiary to develop its Poseidon technology in Oregon, has had a device deployed in Europe over the past couple of years with integrated wind and wave. That was a 37 meter device with 3 turbines. They're now looking to a 100 meter device. Principle Power, also located in Oregon, has been developing a wave component to its floating platform.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 6, 2011
rif, the 7 times rotor diameter spacing rule and your math is a nice way to formulate things if you are trying to advocate against wind. Are you?

Most land-based wind is either is open field or prairie where the former land use is unaltered. Or, its on ridge top in a line array and your area calculation is incorrect.

In offshore installations, the same situation applies, though typically the ecosystem is improved by the hard substrate offered by the wind turbine structures. Monopole and TLP systems have an inconsequential footprint, therefore the utility of the general area of the ocean is improved for everyone.
Lawrence Carroll
Lawrence Carroll
May 5, 2011
Another idea that I saw demonstrated on "Planet Green" awhile back (before Discovery Channeled pared it down to documentaries on the natural world and what-not) was the one of having a double-acting wind-turbine mounted horizontally in a vertically mounted tube, with the tube fixed to the piling on a pier.

The two English inventors that thought of this and then built and installed it (a small turbine which then powered their motorhome) are not only geniuses (in my humble opinion), I loved their insouciant attitude and joking approach.

Surely there are others who saw this?

One refinement to this invention that they mentioned was that a later prototype could intergrate a simple method of moving the tube up and down to accomadate low and high tides.

In addition, what was fascinating was that the "dynamic duo" of these laughing inventors researched the double-acting turbine blade -- the blade spins in the same direction whether the rising water pushes the air through the tube, or when it sucks air back down (as the wave recedes).

I would think that this idea could easily be tried. I wish I was more of a "hands-on" person myself. The most I've done is hook up my small battery-based solar systems, which is really no more complicated (in my mind) than putting together the old component systems in a stereo (power amp, preamp, speakers, turntable etc.).
william payne
william payne
May 5, 2011
"billp37, so you are comfortable indicting the entire PV industry based on the behavior of one plant in China."

Again, not me. This is only what I read on Internet.

My first-hand knowledge of solar generation of electricity

http://www.prosefights.org/scriptpollute/area/area.htm

experimentation is with about less than $300 of solar-related equipment to see whether

1 Fast Neutron's assertions were more-or-less correct
2 if CST home solar-electric proposal

http://home.comcast.net/~bpayne37/solar/loslunassolar/loslunassolar.htm

was reasonable.

My expertise is hopefully in microcontroller hardware/software.

Goggle 'embedded controller forth for the 8051 family'.
Richard .
Richard .
May 5, 2011
@Cliff_Goudey
"As for wind, if you allocate a 100 m x 100 m box for a single 3MW wind turbine, you get 300 W/sq. m. But in reality, all land but the tower footprint can be otherwise used (e.g., crops, forest, etc.)."

You are too optimistic, you cannot place such large wind turbines that close together. The rule is a spacing of 7 times rotor diameter. 3MW turbine is ca. 90 m rotor diameter, so (1000/(7*90))^2 = 2.5 turbines/km2, i.e. 2.5 * 3MW = 7.5 MW/km2 = 7.5 W/m2.

However you are absolutely right that the wind turbine foundation and access road only take up about 1% of the land area, the rest can be used for e.g. farming. It is false to claim that wind turbines take up the farm land it stand on, rather it is a dual use of farm land.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 5, 2011
billp37, so you are comfortable indicting the entire PV industry based on the behavior of one plant in China.

All the issues you cite can be managed through proper industrial processes and recycling. That can not be said for the competing fossil and nuclear alternatives. Their business model requires wholesale toxic emissions and unresolved disposal issues.
william payne
william payne
May 5, 2011
"From a land use perspective, wind and solar are far superior to conventional fossil fuel or nuclear power plants, with none of the environmental and health risks."

'Since 2002, photovoltaic production has doubled roughly every two years, increasing at a yearly average of 48%, making it the fastest growing energy technology. By 2008, PV installations worldwide had surpassed 15 GW and the end is not in sight. However, as Obi-Wan might paradoxically put it, "There is a Dark Side to sun power.

Eventually, existing installations will reach the end of their useful lifetimes, requiring replacement. One of the seeming contradictions of producing the means to generate clean renewable energy is that you must manufacture them using stuff that can be pretty deadly to the environment such as ammonia, arsine, cadmium sulfate and diborane. And when you discard these installations, effluvia such as arsenic are released during solar cell decomposition, and then there is all that chromium in screws and frames. So what do you do with the things?

...

It also quotes a March 2008 Washington Post report that at least one plant in China's Henan Province regularly dumps silicon tetrachloride, a toxic waste product of polysilicon manufacturing, on nearby farmland. The Post quoted Li Xiaoping, deputy director of the Shanghai Academy of Environmental Sciences: "Crops cannot grow on this, and it is not suitable for people to live nearby."'

April 2010 SEMICONDUCTOR International
william payne
william payne
May 5, 2011
Hello Cliff_Goudey,

Not my facts. This is what I read on Internet. I quote Fast Neutron and apparently Southwest Windpower.

We are investigating solar claims. Possible large-scale solar generation of electricity fraud.

One claim is that Heat Rate does not apply to solar and wind generation of electricity.

"Greg Nelson expressed lack of knowledge.

From: "Greg Nelson" To: bpayne37@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 5:34:21 PM
Subject: RE: heat rate for csp? geothermal heat rate

Don't know.

From: bpayne37@comcast.net [mailto:bpayne37@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 5:33 PM
To: Nelson, Greg
Cc: scholle1@gmail.com; gretchen@gis.nmt.edu; fmcurrie@cai-engr.com; CAI Info; Shirley A. Lancaster; shumard@epri.com; askepri@epri.com; clperry@epri.com; clibby@epri.com; zalan8587@q.com; ron chesser; homan@nmgco.com; steve casey; dru jones; sheila.shaffer@state.nm.us

Subject: Re: heat rate for csp? geothermal heat rate

Hello Greg,

Thanks for response.

You wrote, 'Heat rate is the amount of Btu's of fossil fuel burned to generate kWh's of electricity. Since CSPs don't typically burn any fossil fuel (unless they have supplemental firing), the term heat rate does not apply to CSPs.'

Then why does Geothermal have a Heat Rate of 29,050 BTU/kWh?

regards,

bill

http://www.prosefights.org/unmineable/unmineable.htm#scholle"
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 5, 2011
billp37, get your facts straight. Why would you make such an absurd statement?

Commercially available PV panels provide 16 W/sq. ft. (and climbing), that's 172 W/sq. m. or, if you prefer, 0.44 GW/sq. mi.

As for wind, if you allocate a 100 m x 100 m box for a single 3MW wind turbine, you get 300 W/sq. m. But in reality, all land but the tower footprint can be otherwise used (e.g., crops, forest, etc.).

From a land use perspective, wind and solar are far superior to conventional fossil fuel or nuclear power plants, with none of the environmental and health risks.
william payne
william payne
May 5, 2011
Wednesday May 4, 2011 16:57

http://www.prosefights.org/unmineable/unmineable.ht#betz

New Small Wind Turbine Unveiled at CES.

Sorry, but you swallowed a bunch of sales department hype. There's nothing new in this larger version of the five year old SkyStream design that would justify it being the "first fully smart" small wind turbine. Other manufacturers have offered internet monitoring systems for years and so has Southwest Windpower. It produces 74% more energy because its ~ 74% larger, not because its 74% more efficient (which would violate the "Betz Law" efficiency limit). Wait until you can get a price, certified performance figures following AWEA standards, and the warranty terms – then you can judge how competitive this new model is against the many other good small turbines on the market.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fast neutron
Santa Fe, NM
January 12, 2009

From actual experience, wind farms produce 1.2 watts per square meter. Solar Thermal and Photovoltaic methods capture 5 to 6 watts per square meter. There is no economy of size in either technology. Dividing the watts you need by those values gives the land area in square meters needed to produce the juice. The numbers are astronomical

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/santa-fe-new-mexican/T0QVJ5UD3R25C8HRL
ferrand stobart
ferrand stobart
May 4, 2011
One of the Bockris ideas is a floating Hydrogen Wind Generated system, with local storage and offtake by tanker. Somewhere else I have read that if electrolisers are positioned on the sea bed you can get "ready compressed" Hydrogen.

Re shallow waters, I have an article advocating "tide ponds" along the East UK coast, acting as erosion preventers, and having tidal power, wind power, wave power and fish farming included in the project. Copies to anyone interested - published in 1994
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
May 4, 2011
I wish we could all sit down and talk and figure this bad boy out
Christopher Lee
Christopher Lee
May 4, 2011
At last! Not one but two comments proposing that several kinds of renewable energy could be combined in a single project.

The experts who contributed to the article ought at least to have mentioned current non-wind marine projects that use a floating platform. The apparant lack of imagination and breadth of vision is disquieting.
ferrand stobart
ferrand stobart
May 4, 2011
Back in 1975 Prof Bockris [still going in Australia] wrote an article on wind energy which included several ideas not I think mentioned in the article, see Bockris files on my linked In profile, or contact me direct
June Yasol
June Yasol
May 4, 2011
It's good to know there are lots of investors working on this- go ahead and godspeed to all of you! http://jayarec.juneyasol.com
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 4, 2011
Sean, I agree 100% regarding the synergies of wind turbine and wave energy converter co-siting. But let's not forget that the integration of wave energy capture can also occur in shallow water and it is there that wave energy become conveniently concentrated for economical exploitation by surge-type machines. We should talk.
Sean O'Callaghan
Sean O'Callaghan
May 4, 2011
@ Cliff - you're correct on all of the above counts of course, however shallow water locations aren't as prolific as you may believe and they are, as you mentioned, often controversial.

Floating offshore wind will face an uphill battle where fiscal sensibilities are concerned yes, however as reBen has suggested, and as I am presently researching myself, the integration of wave energy capture into a floating base could do an awful lot to address this issue. Couple that with serialisation and you're certainly heading towards feasibility at least.

Furthermore, the early stage at which any such devices stand presently will mean that by the time they are fully developed, we will be significantly farther along the road to full shallow water capacity.

As to the impact of the dynamics of a floating platform - whilst I agree that spar and slack moored platforms are unquestionably problematic, TLP's show good promise provided the surge response can be kept in check.

There is no straight answer to all of the issues they face yet, but they are most definitely deserving of R&D.
Cliff Goudey
Cliff Goudey
May 4, 2011
It will be hard for these floating systems to compete economically with fixed monopile installations. The only way they make sense at this time (while there are plenty of shallow-water locations available) is when the anti-wind aesthetic or user-conflict arguments are taken too seriously or when a location is too remote to support the installation infrastructure needed for monopile placement.

The dynamics of floating systems impacts the performance of the turbine and adds cost beyond that of the additional steel and the mooring system.
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
May 4, 2011
Yes. Floating Wind Turbines have great future.

Dominic Michaelis and his team developed ENERGY ISLAND which also utilises Wind,Solar,OTEC.
The basic island could be of hexagonal plan, so that it could readily be joined to other units to form cluster or linear plans as required. A hexagon made up of 6 equilateral triangles of 300 meter long sides would have a longest cross distance of 600 meters and a shortest cross distance of 520 meters. Its area would be 234 000 m(2), or 23,4 hectares. It's size would guarantee it's stability in heavy seas.
The Energy Island would act as a platform to maximise collection and conversion of the diverse renewable energy sources available.
These would include :-
WIND ENERGY Wind Energy varies from site to site, but is generally more plentiful at sea, without the interference of land features. In these conditions, to maximise wind energy collection, aerogenerators would be mounted on height adjustable hydraulic masts allowing collection at different heights where one mill would be in the lee of another. On a 600 meter wide platform, it is proposed to place 3 low level 70 meter diameter mills and 3 high level diameter mills, each capable of generating 3 MW (el). The total peak output is 18 MW peak.
SEA CURRENT ENERGY Sea current Energy is very site dependent, but it is assumed that a cowled turbine assembly 500 meters across perpendicular to a constant current flow can generate 2MW / 100 meters, or a total of 10 MW.
WAVE ENERGY Although in tropical waters, the average wave energy profile is far from the 50 kW / meter average of the North Sea, a figure of 15 kW / meter can be expected.
SOLAR ENERGY Many different solar collector systems can be considered over the 22 hectare platform, ranging from PV arrays to concentrating thermal systems.
Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: Anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
May 3, 2011
You're a genius reBen are you a developer, integrator or just a good innovative samaritan?
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
May 3, 2011
How about adding wave or tide action generates to the submerged (ballast) portion of the mast--- twofer!

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Andrew Williams is a freelance journalist based in Cardiff, Wales, UK. His work has been published in a wide range of publications including The Guardian, The Ecologist, Green Futures, 24 Housing, Professional Broking and Strategic Risk....
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