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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? Click Here to Register! ×

Calculating the True Cost of Solar Electricity

Researchers continue to seek ways to accurately predict the levelized cost of energy.

Ucilia Wang, Contributing Editor
February 13, 2011  |  109 Comments

It goes without saying that solar investors want a good cost and performance analysis before deciding whether to pump money into a project. What many may not realize is the numbers they get often are superficial and too basic, said researchers from Argonne National Laboratory.

In a paper published in Energy & Environmental Science last month, the authors crunched numbers to create a cost analysis that showed in more detail a range of scenarios for power production and costs throughout the expected lifetime of a solar power plant. The analysis also tells the likelihood that each scenario will take place.  

“People are taking these guesses and not capturing the uncertainties associated with them,” said Seth Darling, an Argonne researcher and lead author of the paper, which looks at levelized cost of energy calculations for utility-scale projects. “They take their best guesses based on existing data and make projections about what those numbers will be.”

Levelized cost of energy (LCOE), expressed in cents per kilowatt hour (kWh), takes into account not only the capital cost of building a project, but also all the operating and maintenance expenses over time (such as the length of a power purchase agreement). It doesn’t include the profit a plant owner wants to make.

Banks or other project financiers typically hire consulting firms to generate LCOE analyses to help them make investment decisions. Some large developers also have internal teams doing the same. The LCOE numbers aren’t just valuable for developers and bankers, they also are useful for policy makers, particularly given the solar energy industry’s reliance on government incentives.

Energy Secretary Steve Chu recently launched the SunShot initiative to put money into projects that will help drive down the LCOE to $0.06 per kilowatt hour by the end of the decade, a rate that will be cost competitive with power from fossil fuel sources without a need for government subsidies.

The paper, “Assumptions and Levelized Cost of Energy for Photovoltaics,” pointed to Spain as an example of how simplistic LCOE calculations can contribute the collapse of a booming market. The country became the largest photovoltaic installation market in 2008 when developers anticipated a sharp decline in government-set solar electric pricing and a national cap of 500 megawatts for 2009. 

“For the PV industry, LCOE analysis failed most spectacularly in Spain in 2008, when too many projects were developed using best case assumptions regarding panel failure rates and other performance factors. A more thorough analysis of the uncertainties associated with these assumptions could have prevented substantial losses,” according to the paper, which was co-authored by a researcher from Northwestern University and an analyst from Gartner.

What Darling and his fellow researchers have found is that analysts typically plug in just one number for each data field, the result of which leads to a simplistic view of a power plant’s power output. A LCOE analysis takes into account factors such as the amount of sunlight, sunlight-to-electricity conversion rate of the solar panels, anticipated degradation rate of the photovoltaic materials, and the cost of borrowing money.

Every firm may have its own model and software for doing LCOE calculations. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory offers what it calls the Solar Advisor Model for doing such analysis. The model does allow a deeper analysis by letting you vary one number for each data field to get a range of results, Darling said. But there are better ways to project cost and performance, he added.

“You have to give a range when you give LCOE estimates. When you talk to people in the industry, they will say, ‘This is the number,’ especially finance guys. We want to say: don’t do that,” said Alfonso Velosa, a Gartner analyst and co-author of the paper.

In the paper, the researchers used a well-known method called Monte Carlo to show what a more detailed LCOE analysis will look at for each of the three hypothetical projects in different locations. Instead of, say, putting in the average value for the solar resource at one location into the model, the researchers first come up with a range of possible numbers for a given location by culling decades of data. Then, Monte Carlo calculations randomly select numbers from different sets of numbers. By doing these Monte Carlo calculations many times over, they came up with not just a range of LCOE numbers but also information showing the probability of achieving certain results. Each analysis also could shed light on which factors lead to more uncertainties in the outcome.

The work requires more assumptions and calculations, which paint a more complicated picture of a project’s potential cost and performance.

“It makes things less certain, but it was always less certain, you just didn't know how uncertain it was before,” Darling said. “I hope it gives people more input and helps them think about ways to reduce the uncertainties.”

Using a good mathematical model isn’t the only key to producing a more comprehensive analysis. Good data also are important. Unfortunately, there isn’t a whole lot of operational data from commercial solar power plants because the market has only begun to take off in the United States. Operational data tend to be proprietary anyway. Data on weather, solar irradiance, solar panel efficiencies are more readily available, but the quality of data can be inconsistent, depending on who is collecting and providing them.

Larger developers and owners such as SunPower, SunEdison, First Solar, Sempra and Florida Power & Light can carry out more sophisticated analyses by drawing data from the large-scale projects they have installed. Some universities and national labs, such as NREL and Sandia, are collecting data from their own field trials. Chevron announced a test bed of photovoltaic technologies in California last year. ProLogis, which leases industrial spaces worldwide, including rooftops for solar power projects, also launched a test site in Colorado last year.

Argonne also is planning a test site at the Illinois Tollway's  headquarters outside of Chicago, Darling said. The idea is to collect data about how solar panels operate in the Midwest and make that data available. The site will test panels using crystalline (mono- and multicrystalline), amorphous-silicon, cadmium-telluride and copper-indium-gallium-selenide. Weather stations will be set up to collect data on temperatures, humidity, solar irradiance and others. The installation will use microinverters, said Darling. Selections for the solar panels and microinverters haven’t been finalized.

The entire paper is available for download at this link.

109 Comments

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Gerry Wootton
Gerry Wootton
January 4, 2012
Wow ... what a cat fight!
In retrospect, back of the envelope reasoning obviously has it's drawbacks and, apparently, you can arrive at different conclusions depending on the size of the envelope.
The x $/W arguments are representative: there is no x. For a relatively accurate LCOE model, the capital cost has to be divided into per module costs including installation, per area costs (everything from land purchase to zoning), area fill factors (taking into account 0,1,2 axis of tracking, service access lanes, etc), per kW costs (equipment sheds, inverters, transformers, data collection, etc), infrastructure costs (roads, fences, plumbing, etc), amortization rates, compliance (engineering studies, permitting, etc), etc, etc. x depends on the nature of the installation and is quite sensitive to factors like module size, module aperture efficiency, number of modules per tracker / rack, location (e.g. rooftop vs ground mount) and project scale. x depends on the nature of the project and how much of the cost is included in that x; it is pointless to argue about any specific value being the right one without context.
On the payback side, the SP depends on location and type of project (for example, transmission is 32% of cost hence central plants deserve less remuneration, distribution is ~8% hence presence/absence of a microgrid makes a difference) and net revenue depends on things like connect charges, production taxes (yes in some jurisdictions producers pay tax on power produced), real estate taxes, maintenance costs, tax credits, and so on. One factor that has a substantial effect on LCOE is the timeline of the project, particularly time from shovel in the ground to full operation and carrying time for capital debt. As Ontario discovered, rural ground mount 10 kW tracker systems had a much better LCOE than expected with a 1 week shovel to operation timeline and beneficial farm credit arrangements (they made a FIT adjustment :().
ANONYMOUS
November 27, 2011
Really, these are the arguments that continue to make this sort of study important. Without proper methodology and clear statements of the applicability of an analysis, sweeping policies will continue to be made. There is no doubt that we need solar PV -- we just need to figure out how best to distribute and improve it.

Prices and solar resource are quite variable geographically, making Solar PV more economic in some places. A single LCOE for solar PV per country is not wise. Even worse when all technologies are lumped together with one capacity factor. It's not like shipping one or two grades of coal to wherever your plant is. However, we still need to address why the 'installed' cost is still so high compared to what manufacturer's are aiming for at $1/W. Inverter improvements and better manufacturing quality is a step as we improve the operating life of these systems. On that note, we need to recognize the true life of the systems beyond financing term.

A Review of Solar Photovoltaic Levelized Cost of Electricity, Renewable and Sustainable Energy Reviews, 15, pp.4470-4482 (2011), http://www.appropedia.org/Review_of_Solar_Levelized_Cost
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 23, 2011
Last time, for the umpteenth time, check out my link to the recent contracts forwarded by SCE to the PUC for contract approval. All of them are below the MPR. I'm done with this inane conversation.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 23, 2011
Tam,
This dialogue isn't fruitful because you are blatantly dishonest. You haven't presented anything but assertions here other than one link that more or less disproves everything you've claimed.

Put up or shut up Tam. I, and others, have cited government and academic research on price data. You've just SAID that things were otherwise. Until you bring something to the table other than bold claims, I will assume you are a damned liar. I imagine most of the other readers here have made similar assumptions.
ANONYMOUS
February 23, 2011
What "hard evidence" Tam?

In my book you're out of credibility.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 23, 2011
Glenn, clearly this dialogue isn't fruitful - you're simply ignoring hard evidence that I present, misreading my statements, and merely trying to "win the argument." Step back from your ego a little and reconsider what I've written here. Or don't. Simply wait a few years and let's see who's more accurate.
ANONYMOUS
February 23, 2011
DOE says solar-produced electricity is $.30-$.60 per kWh and NOTHING in this article or the numerous comments provided any evidence that it was less. Solar is way too expensive.

Solar isn't affordable and therefore it isn't a solution. If average electricity prices approach $.30 kWh then maybe it will make sense. Until then invest in R&D to hopefully make solar affordable or at least reasonable.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 23, 2011
Tam, my last post was incorrect, because the unique "peak" allocation for Edison doesn't include weekends, so instead of 1/3rd of the year, that would only be viable for ~1/4th of the year. So now your target is ~$400/MWh difference in pricing.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 23, 2011
Tam,

First, you really need to be careful about the misplaced insults. Someone who has actually read this thread will note that I predicted a much closer price range blind - as I am quite accustomed to U.S. average ranges - than the complete bullshit that you bandied about.
The same can be said of remaining on topic for the thread.

As far as the "no it doesn't mean that all bids are $0.26/kWh"... it indeed doesn't. But it also means that they expect bids to exceed $260/MWh (for the love of God why are you incapable of using industry standard pricing units?), and no sane contractor will bid significantly less than $260/MWh if they are aware that the cutoff is $260/MWh.
The challenge that I gave to you was to show EVIDENCE of some of these magical low-cost solar projects. You then shoot back that you've SAID that there were low cost solar projects... I acknowledge that you said what you said. I asked for some form of proof, and you SHOWED me $260/MWh.

As for the "peak" periods. The U.S. typically has a "peak" that equals what your link calls "mid-peak". Note that Edison reclassified that for the summer only, so from June-Sept you have a new super-peak classification that differs from the rest of the U.S. But any storage system that is only called on to work for 1/3 of the year has 3X the net incremental cost adder for delivered energy. So now your battery packs don't need a $100/MWh price difference between the uniquely classified "mid-peak" and this new (super)"peak", they now need a $300/MWh price difference to justify their costs... and they don't have that.

I would still like to see evidence of a PV solar facility that was built with incorporated grid-level storage in the continental United States. (I'll acknowledge that this may be marginally economically viable in Hawaii.)

You claimed this is a booming business, surely you can find one instance to prove that claim.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 22, 2011
Hi:

LOL... "Find some evidence. Quick - your gig is almost up."

Gee, and here I was mislead into thinking the sun had at least a few billion years left to burn.. God, who can you trust these days for correct info...
But there is, "Knowing" with Nicolas Cage, so maybe our gig is almost up...

This thread is like a one act Broadway comedy, wonderfully acted out indeed...

.....Bill
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 22, 2011
If over-priced solar is used to replace some of the natural gas peakers, on days without sun those peakers will end up costing more. Maybe 300 days of the year we'll have some solar-peaking energy, but the natural gas peakers will have to charge MORE on the other 65 days. Any savings from solar will disappear.

Unfortunately, the main thrust of this article and the comments is being driven by factless solar PROMOTERS and not verifiable data. Solar advocates continue to lose all credibility by simply making unsubstantiated claims. Find some evidence. Quick - your gig is almost up.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 22, 2011
Glenn, two points: 1) you're off-base again, in a classic example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing; 2) you're changing the subject.

Taking 2) first, I hope you got to the end of the presentation, slides 41 and 42, showing the Time of Delivery tables for Edison, at up to 3.13 times the base price for peak delivered power. That was my point in forwarding the presentation.

On 1), no, it is not the case that the $26 c/kWh will automatically become the price for PV under this program. Far from it (unfortunately for me and other developers). As I've also mentioned many times in this and other threads, actual bids are far lower than this price level and a number of contracts for 5-20 MW solar projects were recently forwarded to the CPUC by SCE for contract approval and ALL of these are for pricing below the Market Price Referent, which means they're equivalent to about 15 c/kWh (with Time of Delivery included) - a far cry from the 26 c/kWh for the program link I sent you above (there are a bunch of different programs for renewables in CA, so it can get quite confusing). The link I sent you is for primarily roof-mounted solar projects 1-2 MW in scale, so pricing will be a bit higher under this program than the 5-20 MW ground-mounted solar projects I just mentioned. But prices for solar have come down so far in the last year or two that the 26 c/kWh price cap is already way out of date. It's a reverse auction process, so developers like me have to bid into it to win a contract. It's not a feed-in tariff, where pricing is automatic.

As I also mentioned above, the far lower price of $2.70/watt for larger solar projects is in fact feasible in the next couple of years because we're already seeing 1 MW projects at $4/watt and much closer to $3/watt for larger projects (20 MW and above).
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 22, 2011
Glenn: You have to lower you expectations when arguing with a cheerleader.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 22, 2011
Tam, the link that you provided shows the following numbers that are relevant to this discussion:

LCOE for solar projected to be $260/MWh (or at least that is the point where they will reject bids, which means the same thing).

This entire discussion occurred because I disputed the (complete bullshit) claim that LCOE for solar could be as low as ~$6.9/MWh (that was taken from the referenced article).

You defend the numbers as somehow realistic, and when pressed you give me a link to a powerpoint where their price cutoff is $260/MWh!

Why did you spend so much time arguing with my (absolutely true) commentary only to give a link that proves my commentary to be correct?

I'm not sure you are following the thread of this conversation very well.
;)
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 22, 2011
Glenn, a final point: if you'd like to understand US electricity markets better, read about the history of PURPA, the federal law passed in 1978. This law opened up what were then entirely closed markets and required that utilities offer contracts to third parties for renewables and cogeneration. The other key feature of PURPA was that contracts must be at "avoided cost," which was the cost to ratepayers if the utilities had bought similar power from other sources. A number of recent FERC decisions have reaffirmed state authority to set avoided cost rates for renewables that reflect the renewable energy requirements imposed by the state (renewable portfolio standards or RPS laws).
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 22, 2011
The original misleading article AND all the comments from solar industry promoters haven't change the reality that solar is not competitive and it is not a solution to our energy needs. Hopefully, current R+D will make it more affordable and reliable.

Until then, keep looking for solutions.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 22, 2011
PS. The reason renewables contracts almost always are long-term is because there are no fuel costs for renewables. Thus almost the entire cost is required upon construction (other than O&M). This is a stark difference from, say, natural gas plants where capital costs are a small fraction of the 20 year levelized cost. Fuel costs are the lion's share.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 22, 2011
Glenn, as I've mentioned many times now peak power in CA is worth up to 3 times base power. This is not artificial - it reflects market realities in a very peaky demand area. The 25% time of delivery boost to contracts is an average annual figure, based on the year-round production profile of solar and good peak wind resources like those in my neighborhood.

Here's the link to a recent solar PV program:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpuc.ca.gov%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2F6872F3D2-556E-42B1-ADD2-E2630F65EDD5%2F0%2FSCEPresentationforSolarPVProgramWorkshopfinalv2.ppt&rct=j&q=sce%20solar%20pv%20program&ei=PNpjTfeGMoG8sQOFnKzSCA&usg=AFQjCNEAAA25Nml_QQHhrarF_BTn4yI3LA&sig2=a6OerfiD2Feg4EAn12ktJA&cad=rja

Solar is cost-effective now BECAUSE it is a peak power resource. And as costs continue to come down for solar it will before very long (3-5 years) compete with baseload power also.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 21, 2011
Hi Glenn:

No particular reason... I had not caught the connection in print, sorry.... I think it is nice to put a "face" and background to posters... In many cases it helps to "frame" their responses...

That's all...

.....Bill
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 21, 2011
Tam,

We seem to be talking past one another. I granted your point before you made it, but I don't find anything compelling there.

That's like saying that an EV is a good choice if someone else buys it for you, but refuses to buy any other car for you... Sure, it won't hurt your wallet if $12,500 is purchased by angry taxpayers and you don't actually care if you are hurting the environment more by driving the stupid thing than you would if you purchased a Prius... But that does not defend the chosen route.

In this case, you have a clear case where the electric companies are losing money by paying an absurdly high premium for an artificial "peak" to justify the obscene purchase of storage that has a net effect of REDUCING solar energy provided to the grid, hence REDUCING the abatement of GHG's...

Everyone loses: the hapless fools in the power company who are simply increasing the dead cost of their purchased electricity, the customers of said power company that are forced to purchase higher priced electricity, the taxpayers that have to pay subsidies for dumb systems that are neither needed nor wanted, and the environment, which now has to contend with increased net emissions.

The entire thing is absurd.

As for the 25% boost, please use a real world example so we can all see what you're talking about. I can believe that electricity at 12:00 pm is 25% more valuable than electricity at 10:00 am, but that won't justify batteries unless most of the cost is shunted onto taxpayers (all to decrease total solar energy generation).

You keep trying to include "other renewables" into this discussion... but they don't belong here. Wind power is often generated at night during the dead nadir of energy demand, and often must be curtailed to keep overproduction from damaging the grid. That is not a similar story to solar, which is what I was challenging you on.

The difference between "peak" and "off-peak" solar would never justify storage without extreme subsidies.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 21, 2011
Glenn, you're missing the point. The renewable energy market is not a day ahead market because developers need long-term contracts to justify the up-front expense of projects. Renewables are generally bid into renewable energy solicitations that offer long-term contracts to winning bids. 20 years is increasingly becoming standard. Time of Delivery payments are also becoming increasingly standard, particularly in peaky power demand markets, because all kWh are not created equal - peak kWh are far more valuable. Thus renewable energy contracts generally provide a boost for peak power. 25% is not a "small boost," it's huge and can make or break a project. And it also can justify storage with solar or other renewables through time-shifting the sale of power. So, again, storage makes economic sense when the levelized cost of storage equipment is lower than the average price available for peak power.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 21, 2011
@ William,

Yes, Dr F David Doty is my father. I work for the family business. I have tried to be quite open about that.

Why do you ask?

@ Tam,
I am giving you credit. I don't give you the ability to simply state something I know to be untrue without defending it. You've changed to a statement that some electric companies in Southern California offer PPA's that give a small boost to profits for solar companies. That's what I said as well. That doesn't argue effectively for the merit of the practice, that just shows an option that is enabled in a market that doesn't require anything special to compete in.

That's like discussing solar-thermal with companies in Spain, where it isn't uncommon for them to get contracts for ~$440/MWh. OF COURSE they can afford hundreds of tons of molten-salt thermal storage and still make good... But if we want an openly competitive market, where everyone has access to affordable energy... that's not going to work.
The same goes for grid-level storage (rather than spinning reserve) for solar power. The idea simply doesn't work in an open market. But worse, if there's no excess energy issues during the hours that the renewable energy source is producing (as is the case with solar), then storing that energy for re-release simply results in less fossil power abatement. It's bad economically AND bad for the environment.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 20, 2011
Hi Glenn:

Out of curiosity, is David Doty Phd of Doty Scientific your dad??
Or is the name, location, and Glenn Doty shown as employee just coincidence..??..

.....Bill
ANONYMOUS
February 19, 2011
I can't understand why Tam_Hunter thinks people are simply going to "take his word for it" when everyone doubts the numerous claims of renewable energy. I don't understand why these renewable gangs haven't contributed to a reputable study that makes economic sense of solar claims. Oh, maybe they can't.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 18, 2011
rrogers, keep in mind that Hawaii's larger FIT tier rules have yet to be released. This is why the new FIT has been lackluster in bringing new projects online. More generally, Hawaii is a great lab for testing high penetration of renewables on small grids.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 18, 2011
Glenn, I work in CA on wind and solar as a consultant and a developer. I know whereof I speak. Edison and other CA utilities have a number of programs (as do many other utilities around the country) that offer long-term contracts (not spot markets) for renewables like solar and wind. These contracts offer a base price (generally Market Price Referent, a proxy for natural gas power, but increasingly auction-based) PLUS Time of Delivery adjustments that generally amount to a 25% annual boost for solar or good peak wind resources because they pay up to 3 times the base price for peak power.

Give me some credit buddy.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 18, 2011
@rrogers -

The information provided concerning Hawaii is interesting. However, Hawaii is an extremely isolated case (literally and figuratively). I must admit that I do not consider Hawaii in any cost/benefit analysis of renewable energy.

However, you have a serious misunderstanding concerning WindFuels in your reply to comment #79.

An RFTS plant (or WindFuels plant) would operate continuously. Capacity factor would be very close to 100%.
We do not intend to PRODUCE wind energy. We intend to purchase/consume off-peak electricity for electrolysis, storing enough excess hydrogen that the chemical processes can run uninterrupted throughout the day.

The actual capacity factors and curtailment rates for any individual wind farms would be irrelevant (though your numbers are not remotely valid for the wind corridor). We would only target grids that are oversaturated for WindFuels plants. As such, there would be some amount of excess energy that is curtailed nightly (for instance, in the Texas Panhandle the wind farms have capacity factors of 35-45%, but must curtail 25-30% of their energy).

The WindFuels plant would simply purchase a contracted amount of energy nightly, and operate at capacity throughout the day off of additional hydrogen that was produced and stored during the night.

The ROI of 18.4% assumed the electrolyzer stack would have a capacity of 3.5 times the plant capacity, and sufficient storage would be available for 18 hours of hydrogen, and the plant would operate continuously.

Thank you for your interest, and please review our materials more fully.
www.WindFuels.com

I'd be happy to provide additional information at your request.
Bob Rogers
Bob Rogers
February 18, 2011
Comment 73 "as thermal energy storage is marginally affordable BEFORE conversion to electricity".

That misses the bigger issue, the one with all central solar power plants. Hawaii's most populous island, Oahu, is an example of concerns for intermittent power supplies. Customers of Hawaiian Electric Company (HECO) are limited to a maximum individual system capacity of 100 kW. The aggregate capacity of net-metered systems is limited to 1% of HECO's peak demand. Of this 1% limit, 40% is reserved for systems 10 kW or smaller.

A large cloud can instantly shut down production and just as rapidly start it up. Oahu has an estimated 1.2 gigawatts (GW) of peak load. Their rules allow 7.2 MW of commercial solar power systems on the island. At 40 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh), a common revenue target after incentives, the maximum number of commercial solar power systems on Oahu would generate $4.3 million per year, an amount unattractive to most large companies.

http://stlouisrenewableenergy.blogspot.com/2010/07/clash-of-titans-renewable-energy.html

Comment 79 "plant in question would see a ROI of ~18.4%".

If wind capacity factor is 25% and unused portion is even 10% of that, the capacity factor on a windfuel plant would be 2.5%. A look at your operations flow chart suggests you'd be lucky to startup such a complex plant in 30 minutes (2.5% of day). Plus there will be stiff competition for essentially free electricity (superconductor wires, grid or car batteries, etc.). You might want to base your fuel production system on a dedicated source of power.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 18, 2011
Tam -

No, it does not "make sense", because you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You are mistaking residential energy prices for the wholesale power industry.

In modern ISO systems power is not broken into "peak" and "off-peak", it is sold by the 5-30 minute blocks. The power companies sell to end consumers with "peak" or "off-peak" tags.

Typically the "peak" period is for weekdays between ~7am and ~11pm. That's not a constant, but the variance between ISO's is usually pretty small. However, the PRICE of energy is based on real-time trading on a minute-by-minute basis. It's not uncommon to have one hour cost twice as much as the hour before it did, but its FAR FAR FAR FAR more common to see very gradual price changes within the typical "peak" load. So Edison may designate 12pm-6pm as "peak" to their end consumers (this is a very atypical, short peak), but if you were to sell energy on the local ISO at 11:00, it wouldn't cost X while selling it at 12:00 would suddenly cost 3X. In all likelihood, if the ISO price at 12:00 pm was ~$200/MWh, then the price at 11:00 was at least ~$180/MWh, and the price at 9:00am was at least ~$150/MWh... IF the price at 4:00am (falling within the more typical "off-peak" period) is indeed ~$30-$40/MWh, that would serve to balance the "off-peak" power at an average of ~1/3rd the "peak" price... So Edison could then show that the averages of this time period are X and this other time period are 3X, and justify its pricing priorities to its end-use customers...

But hooking up a battery to a PV farm won't give you a ~$130/MWh pricing advantage for the few hours prior to and after Edison's arbitrary peak... The ISO system just doesn't work that way.

You may claim that PPA's work that way, but that just shows exactly how far away from honestly competitive you really are in the isolated world of Southern California. There's no macro justification here, you're just increasing costs while reducing solar energy.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 17, 2011
Ugh. Glenn, as I've discussed with you in other threads, if battery storage costs less than power can be sold at peak pricing it will make sense to add it. Period.

So if we take Edison as an example, peak power sells for about 3 times the base price. Peak period is from 12 to 6 for four months each summer (and some shoulder pricing is also higher than base). So during summer months, solar can be producing as much as 10 hours a day off-peak.

Does this make sense to you now?
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 17, 2011
Tam -

Storage does NOT work today in conjunction with renewable energy. That is patently false.

Solar is sometimes implemented with renewable energy, but 100% of the time even with subsidies the systems with storage are less profitable than their parallels that have no storage.

There is just no market justification for it, at all. Solar doesn't produce energy "off-peak" other than weekends. The idea of having energy storage that cycles once/week is so economically insane that there aren't words in the English language to describe it.

There are some attempts to use pumped hydropower to stabilize wind energy, but in the wind corridor this is not even remotely economically defensible, as the difference between peak and off-peak energy prices are as low as ~$20/MWh, which is roughly 2-3 times the incremental cost of energy storage in pumped hydropower. (And of course there's the issue with much of the wind corridor being um... FLAT, so pumped hydro is simply not an option and they'd have to consider underground pumped hydro, at twice the price.)

The deeper the penetration of wind energy is in any given grid, the more that grid's pricing will start to look like that of the wind corridor... so there will likely never be an economic justification for using pumped hydrostorage to balance high wind penetration.

Uprated dams work to some extent, but there's only so much you can modulate the flow of a river before you start messing with the river ecosystem, so that avenue is affordable but limited.

The problem here is the infatuation with keeping the energy "on the grid".

Just focusing on grid stability will get you further. There's greater economic payback for transferring grid energy into transportation energy or even using grid energy for other heretofore unknown variable demand load consumption.

I've given you the link before, but:

www.WindFuels.com

Pay special attention to the economics tab: Stabilizing the renewable grid.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 17, 2011
Andrew -

Our technology isn't going to produce a single Wh of electricity. We will purchase carbon neutral electricity and store that energy in liquid fuels (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc...) through a multi-step conversion of CO2. (grid-to-transportation energy storage, rather than grid-to-grid).

This is fairly well detailed.

The economics are broken down into the following variables: cost of clean CO2, cost of clean energy, capital cost for WindFuels chemical plant production; market price for oil, market price for liquid O2, local market for waste heat, local market for co-produced hydrogen.

Essentially we'll be building small refineries all across the wind corridor. We project the cost of each of these will be between ~$1.2-$1.5/W. The price of clean CO2 today is $75, but that is likely to decrease steadily. Currently off-peak wind energy is either curtailed or negatively priced nightly across the wind corridor, so we're confident we'll be able to negotiate a $10/MWh pricing for this currently valueless resource.

At $10/MWh, $75/t-CO2, $1.5/W capital costs, 53% efficiency of conversion, 7.5% discount rate for the capital, and a market price of $85/bbl and $120/tonne-O2, no local market for low-grade heat, no local market for co-produced hydrogen, no fuel production subsidies, and no carbon offsets (ultimate worst-case scenario over the next two decades).
Then the plant in question would see a ROI of ~18.4%.

When the ROI is that high even in worst-cases without support... You just need to bring the technology to deployment and let the market do its job.

Our plan requires Round A investment to allow us to complete a pilot plant, and Round B investment to build a small commercial-scale plant. Then we will need Round C (probably an IPO, but this will depend on the will of the first two investors) to make ourselves deployment ready.

Licensing of the DORC, CRLI, cryogenic separations, and other innovations will add rapid near-term growth and profit.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 17, 2011
Glenn, storage with solar works today b/c not all solar power is produced on peak. As with any technology, the idea with storage is to store off-peak production and sell it on-peak. So it makes sense today because as I've mentioned many times on-peak power is worth multiples of baseload power. And this is why storage is already being planned for a number of large solar projects in the SW today.

As for your assertion that solar will "never" make sense in parts of the country other than the SW, you continue to ignore the cost curves of solar. It's come down in price by a factor of ten in the last couple of decades and will continue to come down dramatically. 2011 global production capacity is about 16 GW and global demand is projected to be about 8 GW. It was only a few years ago that global production surpassed 1 GW annually. This is exponential growth writ large. The current supply/demand imbalance is a recipe for dramatic price reductions, bringing module wholesale prices down closer and closer to $1/watt and all-in costs approaching $3/watt for bigger systems.

Just wait. And let's talk again in a couple of years.
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 17, 2011
"Soon, America will be seeking a verifiable and affordable solution and be we'll willing to pay for it - if we find it, because it will be the product (affordable electricity) that will fund it." - Andrew_W

Not too long ago, we were promised "electricity too cheap to meter". Where did that go? And, we have not yet even begun to address the mine tailings, waste in perpetuity, materials proliferation, diminished water quality, and decommissioning of the first generation of the nuclear industry.
ANONYMOUS
February 17, 2011
@glenn-doty-175949, you're not Jeremy Rifkin, are you? :)
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 17, 2011
@Glenn: I'm glad some website are beginning to pay attention to your innovation. I think you need to provide a Plan that utilizes your technology. There are so many so-called green-tech solutions, but none bother to provide a full detailed Plan that will demonstrate how they can be a solution.

We need numbers for total cost of implementation and what the prices will be. I am convinced that any solution must be able to make the case for implementation. Wind and solar can't do that without massive (unavailable) subsidies.

If your technology can solve our electricity needs at baseload prices ($.08-$.12 kWh) then you need to share what that would cost to implement. Groups proposing wind and solar as a "solution" consistently ignore the trillions of dollars required and the reality that neither is reliable or dispatchable.

Keep at it. Soon, America will be seeking a verifiable and affordable solution and be we'll willing to pay for it - if we find it, because it will be the product (affordable electricity) that will fund it.
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 17, 2011
"Wind and solar are NOT solutions. [ad infinitum]" - Andrew_W

@Andrew_W, it seems that you have an addiction to "NOT".

There are many people who live comfortably and sustainably using only solar, wind, micro-hydro and/or geothermal. They have found their solutions and are pointing the way for those who still seek.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 17, 2011
@ RateCrimes,

The solution is WindFuels. Other, more open renewable energy sites have started to talk about it, but this represents the best path forward that has ever been outlined:
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/guest-post-kicking-oil-addiction-permanently-with-windfuels/

@Tam,
I have stated that at $4/W, solar PV makes sense in the Southwest. That is partly due to the much higher energy pricing for peak energy, and partly due to the desperate water issues which make most thermal-sourced power impractical (including nuclear).

In most areas of the country there will never be a practical economic incentive to adopt heavy penetration of solar PV. In this, Andrew is correct and we simply must think bigger.

However, I did want to specifically challenge you on the idea of "energy storage" coming to the rescue. Energy storage options have NOT dropped in price, at all. In fact, the most affordable option is pumped hydrostorage, which has more than doubled in cost over the last 5 years alone.

Current pumped hydrostorage technology adds an incremental cost of ~$40-$70/MWh of delivered energy. Underground Pumped hydro is next, while CAES adds well over $150/MWh. The idea that you would take peak-produced solar energy and store it for delivery during off-peak hours and magically make this a market-competitive idea is shear lunacy.

I can see using pumped hydro (and certainly uprated hydro) where possible to stabilize some of the intermittency of wind (though this will never be economically supportable without tremendous subsidies), but storing solar for nighttime delivery is simply insane.

The only solar that could possibly lend itself to this is solar thermal, as thermal energy storage is marginally affordable BEFORE conversion to electricity... but such an option will only extend useful power delivery into the 8:00-9:00 "second peak". No-one is dumb enough to store energy to sell at night.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 16, 2011
@RateCrimes: The SOLUTION is "scalable, clean, affordable electricity." We haven't found it yet.

When ignorant green-cheerleaders suggest wind and solar are "solutions," they encourage people to stop looking. Wind and solar are NOT solutions. They are unreliable, over-priced and under-performing. Instead of wasting money on them, we should be seeking real, affordable solution(s).
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 16, 2011
"The SOLUTION we are looking for is AFFORDABLE BASELOAD POWER, so that we can replace coal-generated power. Solar cannot." - Andrew_W

@Andrew_W: More comical 'cannots'?!

What is needed are clean, economical, immediate, proximate, distributed, scalable, unobtrusive, durable, safe, unassailable, equitable, and ubiquitous solutions (note the plural).

What solutions would you recommend?
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
Glenn, I agree that solar is 2 to 3 times more expensive on a c/kWh basis with today's pricing. But costs for solar are dropping a lot faster than costs for wind. And, as I mentioned, before, solar is a fairly reliable peak power resource so it's apples to oranges to compare wind and solar in this manner. The apples to apples comparison is to add a time of delivery component, which would capture the peak power benefits of solar and bring this differential down quite a bit further. Last, when we add storage to solar it becomes a highly reliable peak resource and is even more valuable.

But at least we agree on wind for the nonce and I suspect you'll come around to my position on solar as the hard data continues to come in.
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
The anonymous commenter of comment #41 writes:
"Maximizing benefits from a diffuse resource is the issue. It is insane to talk cost when affordable shale oil gives a Prius the footprint of a Hummer, shale gas is likely to produce the footprint of the Deepwater Horizon well, and nuclear alters environments forever."

I am sure the line "it is insane to talk costs" goes over real well when lining up venture capital or project financing. Economics matters. Even if we wanted to transition immediately away from fossil fuels we would need some way to benchmark cost effectiveness for different renewable technologies.
Steven
Thomas Reis
Thomas Reis
February 16, 2011
Please notice: Fossile Fuels are globally highly subsidysed with tax incentives etc. In Europe streets are free the tax payer pays them no toll collection etc. Also fossile fertilisers are paid by government. Then the gas and coal power plants gets free co2 certificates(you get 12 EUr per ton on ths stock! see co2 study on www.microsolar.at ). In europe you get tax incentive when you use the car to go to work. Going by train is expensive etc...Nuclear Power Plants get big grants and free tax for nuclear. we know figures in europe for euroatom the grants in the last 50 years have been about 50 billion eur from the euroatom members. This money was official for developing new nuclear power plant technologies. Nuclear waste is still radioactive and no solution for storage. Food in europe is also very cheap and produced in europe. the ancient rome empire imported most food from north africa. Until the second World War North Afrika was the mayor source for sugar etc. for europe! So Agriculture is the major subsidiesed of the EU...and this are the example of european grants. Grants are everywhere! http://www.epia.org/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin/EPIA_docs/publications/epia/EPIA_Unlocking_the_Sunbelt_Potential_of_Photovoltaics_v2.pdf http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-29/fossil-fuel-subsidies-are-12-times-support-for-renewables-study-shows.html http://www.bnef.com/DownloadDt3/download/UserFiles/File/WhitePapers/BNEF_2011_01_19_GCC_solar.pdf
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 16, 2011
Tam,
I'm not aware of any solar PV project achieving 30% capacity factor. I have also not seen any projects with this cost reported - aside from unsubstantiated commentary on chat boards such as this. I will acknowledge that I wasn't assuming tracking, but tracking adds ~$0.50/W - $0.75/W, and $4/W is a very low estimate compared to recorded large-scale (er... ~10-20MW, so large for PV) PV projects that were built in 2010.

But even if I were to use your best-case assumptions, we'll assume continued dramatic price drops for a few years: $3.5/W, 30% capacity factor, 25-year longevity, 1%/year degradation, 7.5% discount rate, $15/MWh O&M...
The LCOE would be ~$148/MWh, or ~3.5 times the cost of best-case wind with TODAY's demonstrated real world pricing.

I'm just discussing the data that I can READ. I see wind projects going up all over the place for under $1.6/W, I see wind projects that have better than 40% capacity factors, and I see reports that less than 2% of wind turbines that were put up in the mid-80's are decommissioned, many of those were simply replaced by newer (bigger) models even though they were still producing at spec.

I'm not trying to trash solar here, but I don't want us to lie about it either. Wind is market-ready. It's a competitive product.

Solar just isn't at that level yet. It's getting there, but it IS NOT there yet.

(EVs, of course, will likely never be there).

*shrug*
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 16, 2011
Davidcarl got it right:

"Solar is cheaper than a California standard for peak power and it is expensive for general use."

Solar = Peak Power. 4-5X baseload power.

The SOLUTION we are looking for is AFFORDABLE BASELOAD POWER, so that we can replace coal-generated power. Solar cannot.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
Glenn, you should compare best case to best case, which means solar would be about $3.5/watt (or even the $2.7/watt that the Argonne paper used for a 20 MW project) and 30% capacity factor, which is achievable with single axis tracking in areas with very good sun. This is comparable to your very low cost projection for wind and very high capacity factor.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 16, 2011
Tam,

Note that I stated the "best case" cost for wind power, and was comparing that to $4/W for solar.

Best case wind power: $1.5/W, 42% capacity factor, 40-year longevity, 7.5% discount rate, $6/MWh O&M costs.
LCOE ~$38/MWh.

I granted you the $4/W solar, which seems likely for large-scale installations, so we'll review the following parameters: $4/W, 19% capacity factor, 25-year longevity with 1%/year degradation, 7.5% discount rate, $15/MWh O&M costs.
LCOE ~$242/MWh.

Note that I said large-scale solar power is still quite justified for peaking load in the sunny Southwest (where 19-23% capacity factors might be found).

But if I'm looking at cost/benefit/$ spent... we're abating a lot more CO2/$ spent on wind power than we are abating with $/on solar...

(Note that solar still has nearly an order-of-magnitude better value in terms of abatement/$ than EV's... but that was a different thread).
;)
alok misra
alok misra
February 16, 2011
It is game changer Technlogy.The cost of energy will shock all!

Please wait till new CPV cells arrive.This will another shock!!
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
PS. And as costs for solar continue to come down it won't be that long before solar power, with storage, can compete cost-effectively with baseload power sources.
alok misra
alok misra
February 16, 2011
current is CPV and CCSP combined 4KW +11 KW thermalcost 24,000USD
What is the cost of Energy?
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
Andrew, I just realized that perhaps you don't know what these terms mean and that perhaps you may in fact (in some strange way) be sincere in your critiques. Here's a quick primer:

Peak power is an extremely important part of most power grids, particularly in places like CA that have a very "peaky" system b/c of heat spikes in the summertime or very cold places like New Mexico's recent cold spell that sucked up a lot of power for heating.

Because peak power is so important, but not used all the time (by definition), it's far more expensive than baseload power. This is why CA provides up to 3 times the base price for peak power. And it is also why CA regulators approve construction of natural gas peak power plants that cost ratepayers 60-80 c/kWh (according to the report I mentioned above).

Every power source has its niche. For example, wind power is purely "as available." It is generally not a peak power resource at all because it's not very reliable and b/c most windy areas don't coincide with system peak demand (except coastal areas like my neck of the woods where wind production peaks during demand peaks).

Solar power, however, is a fairly reliable peak resource because production peaks as demand peaks on hot sunny days. Thus the appropriate comparison for solar is other peak power resources - such as the very expensive simple cycle natural gas turbines.

In sum, solar power is a cost-effective and affordable peak power resource today, which is capable of replacing a significant portion of the existing natural gas peak power plant fleet over time - or at least allowing them to run far less often.
David Carl
David Carl
February 16, 2011
Tam and Andrew need to get over yourselvs. You are both correct. Solar is cheaper than a California standard for peak power and it is expensive for general use. You are arguing different points. I would argue that solar wil never be used for peak power, so it is foolish to compare it as such. If the sun is shining and solar power is being generated, no utility is going to say we can not use that because it is for peak power. It will therefore become part of the base load. Base load power is much cheaper than the 20 cent per kwhr standard California is using. My utility deliver power to my house at 9 cents a kwhr. Their production costs are less than that.
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
A 5kW non tracking 15% PV system @ $6/watt in Abu Dhabi produces electricity @ $0.30/kW-h. (8% money, 20 year life, 2,059 kW/m2/year of sunlight). Emirati homes and businesses pay 1.3 cents per kilowatt-hour and expatriates pay 4 cents. The $0.30 is probably a technology investment, not a power plant investment.

Fresh water is free to households in Abu Dhabi but is expensive to make. A 5kW CPV system 25% efficient costing $3.70/watt produces electricity @ $0.18/kW-h but using 75% of the rejected thermal energy to desalinate water lowers the electricity cost to $-0.01. That probably means investors are buying a position today in the future. Some pension fund loans them the money and investors gain the position. For investors, waiting for solar prices to drop, loses their position.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 16, 2011
According to Tam_Hunter, everyone's numbers are "way off," yet again he provides no evidence.

Go Team!
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 16, 2011
Solar schemes only make sense for 'peaking power' and they are NOT an alternative - they are an expensive supplement. They will not solve our electricity needs.

Our attention and resources should be focused on finding real, sustainable solutions, not heavily subsidized disappointments.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
PS. I fully support both wind and solar - I work in both areas. But my point here is to show that solar is in fact cost-effective today, as is wind. They are both highly viable technologies that are growing exponentially today and will continue to grow exponentially b/c they can now compete favorably with status quo technologies. The only major wrinkle to this argument is the fact that natural gas prices are so low right now. Will they stay so low or rise back to more normal levels as the economy continues to recover? We'll see.
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
$30,000 solar pv roof system installed in 2003 produces more electricity than I need. My previous electric bills were about $1100 a year which would mean about 27 years to pay back. However electric costs have increased each year so the pay back time is less. No government subsidies. I rent out rooms and am able to write off the cost as an expense (I guess this is a tax subsidy but no one seems to have a problem with this tax subsidy). I charge for utilities costs from renters. I am very happy with solar. I now get an annual check for the excess energy solar produces. Good deal in my book. No banks were involved.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 16, 2011
Glenn, your numbers are still way off. Check out the NREL LCOE calcuator I linked to above and do the calculations yourself. A wind farm at $1,300/kW (30% less than total cost due to tax credit or cash grant) and 30% net capacity factor, with 8% discount rate, costs 6.0 c/kWh. If we raise that to 40% net capacity factor, it drops to 4.5 c/kWh.

Again, these are highly simplified figures because they don't take into account many relevant factors, but they give a decent ballpark.

So we're looking at 12-13 c/kWh for today's best solar pricing for MW-scale projects, after federal tax credit or cash grant, compared to wind at 4.5-6 c/kWh. This is a factor of two - a big difference from your suggested factor of six.

And, highly importantly, solar is a peak power resource, which in CA is worth up to 3 times the base price, so solar is arguably more cost-effective than wind power today.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 16, 2011
@Microsolar: the solar plant in Abu Dhabi is 100 MW and will cost $600 million. That's $6 kWh. It is over-priced and it will under-perform.

Solar is NOT a solution or an alternative. It is an expensive supplement.
Thomas Reis
Thomas Reis
February 16, 2011
My Callculation which is supported from big american consulting company assumes other prices: 50 years power from PV for a BOS for less than 2 Dollar per Watt which is reality in germany since 2008! I callculate 900 kWh per kWp because of degradation and german weather. But with no dept costs etc. the price will be for the power less than 5 Cent per kWh. If you assume in 2020 prices for less than 1,5 Dollar for BOS of a cSi System and less than 0,8 Dollar per Watt BOS for thinfilm best case systems and a maintainity less than 0,5% per year etc. The electricity from solar will become a unbeatable cheap source for electricity worldwide. For the sunny belt of the world it will be in 2-3 years the cheapest source. See also the study of bloomberg, that in arabian countries it makes more sense to build this year PV and sell more oil!
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
A 5kW non tracking 15% PV system @ $2.70/watt produces electricity @ $0.20/kW-h. (8% money, 20 year life, 1,364 kW/m2/year of sunlight). When assuming 2,050 kW/m2/year for SW, cost is $0.13/kW-h. Both are in the ballpark for peaking costs of electricity.

However, a 5kW CPV system 25% efficient costing $3.70/watt produces @ $0.32/kW-h (assuming DNI 1,186 kW/m2/year). SW DNI of 2,512 kW/m2/year produces @ $0.15/kW-h. Using 75% of rejected thermal energy lowers those costs to $0.08 and $-0.03 respectively. That probably means that centralized PV plants will be like computers with insufficient memory; just fine until you need that memory!
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
Glenn, our firm has been seeing supplier costs come in under $4/W installed in the last year. Obviously most companies cannot release pricing information due to confidentiality, but based on the cost reductions seen year after year, $2.70/W in 2012 is certainly believable. Especially when considering that prices were inflated for a while due to european FITs.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 16, 2011
Ucilia,

I would not have had a problem had the authors chosen to reduce costs from the $7.50/W, as I had explained. My problem is the impossible nature of the target that they chose. 2010 saw several MW-scale systems built for ~$5-$10/W, but the only one that had a price tag of $2.70/W was the first thin-film PV field, and that was HEAVILY subsidized in construction through other funding.

My point was that while the methodology is well presented and very interesting, the prices that the authors chose to use are highly unlikely.

I haven't seen any presented evidence in this thread that makes me change my stance on that, though I would now be comfortable with a $4/W price projection (not $2.70/W).

Again, I - unlike Andrew - am not against solar. I defend some of its subsidies, because any labor that is generated merely offsets unemployment/welfare payouts, and could therefore be considered budget neutral; while there are undeniable accommodation costs for global warming and increased SO2 and NOX emissions from fossil plants that are offset by more solar power production.

Even still, I do feel that the solar subsidies are excessive, and the technology is not "deployment ready" in any part of the world other than the sunny Southwest; but I am not opposed to solar. I look forward to getting solar panels on my house the very year they become cost justifiable - which I believe to be ~a decade off.

The WindFuels system that I'm working on requires inexpensive carbon-neutral electricity. We don't care where it comes from so long as it is carbon-neutral and cheap... so we're completely agnostic about which carbon-neutral energy source will be required.

But that doesn't mean I should accept clearly false or exaggerated price estimates for current or near-term technology.

Even at $4/W, solar power is still ~6 times as expensive as best-case wind. Keeping the numbers honest means more money gets directed towards solutions that have the biggest impact/$.
Edward Lovelace
Edward Lovelace
February 16, 2011
The SunShot analysis is a sham. If you read the cost breakdown targets from the DOE for the SunShot it assumes a 27% capacity factor for solar PV which you only get in the desert southwest.

Don't get me wrong; I think it is an excellent program. I just want more truth in advertising. Otherwise someone will eventually expose it and it will hurt future programs.
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
Quotes from suppliers for utility-scale solar have definitely come down from 2009, so I'm not sure why reports from that year are still being referenced for today's costs.

I'd like to know how residual value of solar plants gets taken into account, considering the technology should last much longer than the length of most PPAs, with very low maintenance costs. Does anyone know much about that area?
ANONYMOUS
February 16, 2011
mark:

By your assumptions, $30K @ 1%, 25 years, the annual payment on that money would be $1360. With electricity at $.09/kWh, you would need to generate 15,000 kWh per year or 1260 per month to make your 1% return. For a 4% return, you would have to generate 1780 kWh/mo. If PV is 15% efficient, you would have to have 2,160 kW/m2/year of sunlight. PA receives about 1250 kW/m2/yr. You must be incorporating subsidies or some green math in your example.
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
February 16, 2011
As a system owner of over 9 KW potential and an installer, I often hear the catchphrase "what is the payback time". I just recently discovered a new way to argue this. Let us say you have $30,000 to invest into a CD paying the current 1.5%. There is no arguing this is awful but true. Now, let us say the industrious and intelligent individual can purchase PV panels by the pallet, a top of the line inverter and install his system with professional help and offset 1 MWH per month for $25,000, but let's use $30,000.
My system has three years of data to reflect actual generation year round. Our power cost is $90/MWh plus $240 per year connection fee. So our return on our investment is paying back $1,200 per year in electric cost with excess generation offsetting some of the connection fee. Our return on investment is 4%, or nearly three times the return of a CD. Yes, it is not as liquid, but the system will last well beyond my life expectancy, and with electric costs expected to go up, this becomes even better "payback".
www.earthbilly.com
Ucilia Wang
Ucilia Wang
February 16, 2011
Glenn Doty: The Tracking the Sun III report from Berkeley Lab looked at systems from 100W to 2.3MWand arrived at an average $7.5/watt for 2009. The Argonne research paper looked at a 20MW system and projected $2.70/watt based on 2012 estimates.
Josh Mitten
Josh Mitten
February 15, 2011
I run a fairly large Design/Install company in south central PA. Our pricing is currently mid $4/watt for 10kW systems. We are at $4/ watt for 300kW systems. Accurate install costs are necessary to make assumptions. The reality is, people need to wake up and realize coal and nuc are hugely subsidized, it just isn't to the end user like solar. It takes 12-15 Billion to build a Nuc facility (according to my brother who is a Nuc Engineer for Duke) Now, those monies are given "mostly" in bonds, but at 1% interest. If the solar industry could tap 15 Billion dollars for R&D at 1% interest, Solar would have grid parity in 2 years tops. I love Edison's quote, he saw what we needed 140 years ago when it didn't even exist......
"We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Natures inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." -Thomas Edison
ANONYMOUS
February 15, 2011
Earlier analysis had multiplier error:

A 5kW gas engine generator 20% efficient costing $500 produces electricity @ $0.49/kW-h. Using the waste heat reduces that to $0.12, (assumes 8% money, 5 year life, gasoline @ $3/gal, 2000 hours).

Utility sized plants produce electricity @ $0.05/kW-h (assuming 50% efficiency, $1500/kW cost, fuel at $4/MMBtu, 30 year life, 7500 hr/yr., no maintenance).

A 5kW non tracking 15% PV system @ $4/watt produces @ $0.30/kW-h. (8% money, 20 year life, 1,364 kW/m2/year of sunlight). When assuming 2,050 kW/m2/year for SW, cost is $0.20/kW-h. Cutting PV capital costs 50% cuts electricity costs 50%.

A 5kW CPV system 25% efficient costing $4/watt produces @ $0.43/kW-h (assuming DNI 1,186 kW/m2/year). SW DNI of 2,512 kW/m2/year produces @ $0.20/kW-h. Using 75% of rejected thermal energy lowers that cost to $0.14 and $0.01 respectively.

But a fixation on costs tends to embed existing biases. A gas system makes electricity when we want it but makes noise, smells, depletes resources that belong to our kids, degrades the user's health and the environment, and requires a robust military. Solar is available some days, much less in winter, is clean, noiseless, does not deplete valuable resources, does not have to degrade health and the environment, and is locally harvested.

Central PV systems use 15-25% of the acquired resource. Losing 75-85% of a resource is more the issue than cost. Building grid access for solar, spoiling fragile ecosystems, and line losses all eco the mahantra of fossil fuel exploitation. Re-engineering system means looking ahead, not backward. Aiming to fit within the accounting system for past excesses merely justifies those approaches and continued excess.

Maximizing benefits from a diffuse resource is the issue. It is insane to talk cost when affordable shale oil gives a Prius the footprint of a Hummer, shale gas is likely to produce the footprint of the Deepwater Horizon well, and nuclear alters environments forever.
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 15, 2011
"We should be spending on a sustainable solution. [sic]" - Andrew_W

Solar IS MORE THAN affordable today in appropriate locations at both local and regional scales. Many of solar's benefits, both immediate and long-term, are discounted in conventional value analyses, while many of the costs and risks of alternatives to solar are dismissed.

Rather than spending your time, and wasting others' time, by criticizing the obvious shortcomings of solar, why don't you instead propose some solutions (after you define "we" and "sustainable")?
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
Andrew W, I now KNOW that you are being paid to criticize solar. It's the only explanation for your ongoing intransigence to basic facts. I just demonstrated that solar power is indeed cost-effective b/c being "cost-effective" requires a comparison to the most comparable status quo power resource. In other words, apples to apples, peak power resource to peak power resource. I also demonstrated that even without subsidies, solar is competitive in CA as a peak power resource. Does that compute?
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@Tam_Hunter: Thank-you for confirming that solar MAY be competitive with "peak power," but it is not affordable. The unprecedented subsidies for solar schemes only make it comparable to the highest cost power - peaking.

"Clean, affordable and reliable electricity" for America would be $.10 kWh or less. Solar isn't and it certainly isn't "cost-effective," even with subsidies approaching 50% of project cost.

I understand your role as a promoter. That's fine. But, let the buyer beware.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
Andrew W, this is the last time I'll be responding to you in this thread. I've mentioned in other threads that at least insofar as CA is concerned, the peak power costs that solar is competing against are on the order of 60-80 c/kWh (simple cycle natural gas turbines), according to the Energy Commission's 2009 LCOE report on central station power technologies (see page 4):

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009publications/CEC-200-2009-017/CEC-200-2009-017-SD.PDF

Costs have come down a lot for natural gas since this report was published, but it is still quite clear that today's solar costs, as a peaking resource, compete very favorably with the fossil fuel alternative. So solar is, unsubsidized, already competitive with simple cycle natural gas turbines.

Note also that even conventional combined cycle (baseload and load-following) was projected to cost about 13 c/kWh on a levelized basis in the 2009 report. This is quite close to the costs I showed for a single axis tracking array, with the 30% subsidy and a 23% net capacity factor. If we only used the best solar resources, however, the capacity factor rises to as high as 30% and this drops the levelized cost to just 12 c/kWh.

And as I've also mentioned in other threads at this forum, the fact that SCE's 250 MW portfolio of third party solar PV projects, submitted a week ago for CPUC approval, contains about 20 projects from 5 to 20 MW that all have contracted for 20 year pricing below the Market Price Referent (equivalent to the cost of power from a combined cycle natural gas plant), further demonstrates that solar PV is cost-effective here and now.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@RateCrimes:

I didn't "argue against Solar," I've simply pointed out that it won't solve our energy problems. It could make up 4-5% of our total use, but that would be at a cost of 3-4 times current electricity rates.

Solar is not a solution. It is, at best, an expensive supplement. Spending billions on development deals is dumb. We should be spending on a sustainable solution.
William Fitch
William Fitch
February 15, 2011
Hi:

I finally got around to reading this thread..
Wonderfully entertaining I must admit.. watching everyone argue over money as though it was an integral and inherent part of the energy and application.. the reading really added some joviality to my serious day...

Thanks...

.....Bill
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 15, 2011
"We need to find "clean, affordable electricity." Solar isn't." - Andrew_W

Your false assertion is based on the false premise of an 'all or nothing' choice. Solar is affordable today as a percentage of total generated power. Exactly what that percentage is depends on numerous factors; one of the most important being available regional and local solar resources.

To argue against solar when it provides only a modicum of the total energy generated is comical.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@Tam_Hunter: At least you've confirmed that with enough subsidies solar MAY be bale to provide some "peaking power" at $.20 kWh. It would be great to see a project accomplishing that. It does demonstrate that solar is NOT "affordable electricity." Maybe it will be in 20 years.

The billions going to wind and solar "development deals" would be more effective looking for a real breakthrough. We need to find "clean, affordable electricity." Solar isn't.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@Tam-Hunter: I and other readers would be remarkably naive to take your assertions - as a promoter, than the many published (documented) costs associated with Solar schemes.

If you want to make your case, I would suggested you provide real evidence. You're beginning to sound like a preacher.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
I goofed in that last post: forgot to zero out the calculator's fossil fuel cost components. Here are the right numbers:

At $4,000/kW, 25 year life, 8% discount rate, and 18% net capacity factor, LCOE: 25.6 c/kWh

At $2,700/kW (after tax credit or cash grant): 17.7 c/kWh

At $3,200/kW with single axis tracking and 23% net capacity factor: 13.8 c/kWh

As I mentioned, these costs are too low for this size system, but give it a couple of years and they'll be accurate. And they're already available for projects in the 1 MW and up size range.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
#27, your numbers are way off. 5 kW of PV at $4/watt (too low for this size system but I'm just using your numbers), 25 year life (standard lifetime though they can last much longer) and an 18% net capacity factor results in levelized cost of 33.5 c/kWh. When we add the federal 30% tax credit or cash grant, this is reduced to 25.6 c/kWh. And when we add tracking for an additional 75 c/kWh but an increase of 25% to the net capacity factor, we get 24.2 c/kWh. And when we add in accelerated depreciation (a tax benefit that almost all power projects get), we get under 20 c/kWh, which is a very competitive peak power resource.

Here's NREL's really simple LCOE calculator:

http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/tech_lcoe.html
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
Andrew W, I've provided, in this thread, the hard evidence from my own experience working with solar companies and customers in building an actual 1 MW solar project. The only thing further I could do is post the contract itself, which I am not at liberty to do (and isn't even possible given this forum's limitations). So, in short, you've reached the end of your rope in terms of your naysaying. It's clear that nothing I could provide you would satisfy your demands and thus it's clear that your concerns are not sincere. What are your motivations??

It doesn't matter what I or you think at this point because the facts on the ground are speaking very loudly for themselves: solar power has doubled about every two years in the US for the last decade. By 2020, we'll start seeing some very serious numbers piling up for solar PV and other renewables. We are in the exponential elbow of growth in this exciting area.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 15, 2011
Glenn, yes, the LBNL Tracking the Sun report is a great resource but it does lag the market a bit of course. 2010 saw a dramatic drop in pricing and 2011, by most accounts, promises to see equally dramatic cuts in pricing because global PV production capacity now exceeds demand by about a factor of two. Solar module costs are now, for larger projects, approaching $1/watt wholesale, so the real work in reducing pricing is shifting from modules to balance of system and labor.

As for larger PV projects, there are many projects proposed in the 100s of MW range - one a few miles north of me in the Carrizo Plain region is planned at 550 MW. Whether it gets permitted is another question entirely. Another one in the same region, by SunPower, is planned at 250 MW.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
Focusing on COST allows us to find a solution that can pay for itself. A real, sustainable solution is paid for by the electricity it produces and its reliability. Wind and solar have not met that challenge.
Jim Lindsey
Jim Lindsey
February 15, 2011
Cost is certainly not the only factor involved when discussing solar energy. Most people buy things due to how it will feel owning them.
How good would it feel not to be dependant on a power company to provide a necessity for your family? Almost everyone assumes power will always be supplied with a flip of a switch, while we live in a very unstable world.

We've always had that hot shower just waiting for us. Do we know for sure that some group won't destroy our source of power? People on the grid are under the control of their power suppliers at whatever rate they demand.

I'll take the independance of solar if it never pays for itself. "NEVER" is when your current power system pays for itself, as you quietly "stay under their thumb."

The top man at our power supplier "earns" $ 3,750,000 per year. I'll let others pay his salary as I slowly have wires and meters removed from my home.
Jim Lindsey-- www.solarplexusco.com
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 15, 2011
@ edgar-gunther.

That Blythe plant was the first thin-film PV plant built in America, and it was accomplished with extremely high targetted subsidies for a first-built technology. Funds were made available from multiple agencies and from both public and private fund sources. The true cost of that plant is perfectly unknowable. All we know is how much First Solar sold it for.
Your post that you linked to is quite a resource, however, for what the average and expected cost of large solar projects might cost. Note that the rest of the projects all have a price range that is above $5/W, as is expected.
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
Anumakonda Jagadeesh
February 15, 2011
Excellent analysis. Often solar energy generation is compared to coal based energy. In many cases coal is subsidised which does not represent the true cost of generation of power.

Another crucial factor is present efficiency of solar cells widely used which shoots up the generation cost.

Until efficient solar cells from tandem, organic polymer, gallium arsenide, gallium phosphate are available in the market at an affordable price(When mass produced) solar PV will not be popular especially in developing countries.

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore (AP), India
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
Evergreen Solar, one of the industries big hopes for reduced costs, continues to implode.

From: http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/02/14/daily2-Evergreen-unhappy-with-debt-exchange-outcome.html

"Evergreen Solar Inc. said today that it is "disappointed" by the results of its debt exchange offers, which the company had called crucial to lowering its expenses.

The Marlborough-based solar technologies company said it received commitments from bondholders to exchange $45.4 million of existing 4 percent senior convertible notes due 2013 for 4 percent notes due 2020. That represents just 22 percent of the $200 million in notes the company had been seeking to exchange for $100 million in notes.

Evergreen also said it would not be able to exchange any of its existing 13 percent notes due 2015 for 7.5 percent notes due 2017 because the minimum commitments had not been met. Just last week, Evergreen extended the deadline for the exchange offers from last Wednesday to last Friday. "
Edgar Gunther
Edgar Gunther
February 15, 2011
First Solar 21 MWac Blythe Solar Plant had an installed project cost of $60.3M or $2.87 per AC Watt and was sold to NRG Energy. Installed cost extrapolated from a Treasury Grant Award. I posted about it and others here http://bit.ly/hILgQA
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@Phil: I appreciate your comment and your solar installation.

Many of us are simply pointing out that the world needs a SOLUTION. We need to figure out how to produce "clean, affordable electricity." That's the challenge.

So far, solar hasn't met that demand, in fact it isn't even close. Wind has made progress but without storage and dispatchability - it's not a solution.

When REW acts as a cheerleader and claims solar schemes are a solution, that is dishonest. There is much work to be done.

Ultimately, the solution will be financed by the production of affordable electricity, not free government money.
Frank Heller
Frank Heller
February 15, 2011
I've been calculated external costs and benefits into small hydro and finding a 'wealth' of data to use....recreational benefits, enhanced value of waterfront as it relates to property tax revenue, improved fisheries, etc.

On the other side, my competition, the wind industry is now getting assessed costs associated with destroyed views that lower property values and drive away tourists; or access roads and transmission lines which destroy sub alpine habitat forever-----roads to erect large wind turbines can't exceed a ten percent grade and require extensive switchbacks which will not only scar a mountain; but make it accessible to off-road vehicles, snowmobiles and mtn. bikes.

In the final analysis, the value of small hydro has greatly increased; while the value of 'big wind' is being lowered appreciably.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
February 15, 2011
My 6KW PV system should produce near 10,000 KWH each year, in Wisconsin, which equates to $22K in 20 years at todays defered electricity costs. This is well below my costs for the hardware and my own installation, and the warranted life of the PV. This also does not include SREC sales. SREC trading could propell solar energy to common accepted neccessity without government expenditures. How is this not sensible?

It seems the big deterant for many pencil pushers is the financial cost of money in keeping a fat profit for the portfolio managers and bankers. I financed my system with frugal life savings. This is not encouraged today at all., but is what built this nation for the banksters to loot and pillage today.

I also appreciate comment #1 above. The profit warriors will deny the real costs of "burn tech" and "nuc tech" without reguard for the future of earth as long as their minions can "levelize" the costs of wars and conflict to control. . They believe in profits over physics, and must be revealed as cultural dinosaurs.

Thomas Jefferson warned against the establishment of an uncontrolled banking establishment 240 years ago, as the parasite that will destroy the life of a Democracy. He was the architect of our national constitution. Is their any real reason this is proven untrue today?

Any species that does not enhance their life support on earth for the generation will perish. 3.5 billion years of evolution, boys. Didja learn?
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 15, 2011
@Tam_Hunter: OF COURSE we don't take your word for it. The DOE and other reputable organizations have studied the cost of solar schemes and they have presented that data. You are a promoter, your assertions - like many at REW should be held accountable.

If you have some real, actual data on projects - post it. As others have pointed out solar costs have dropped slightly, but they haven't made solar affordable or feasible.

Just because you make a living promoting solar schemes that doesn't change the reality of the economics. Solar is not a solution - even with subsidies up to 50% of their costs.
ANONYMOUS
February 15, 2011
I build power plants of all types and understand the costs of each type of plant. I also understand that most people want to be able to operate thier air conditioners after the sun has gone down and bake thier thanksgiving turkey when it is cloudy.In order to understand the true cost of solar power you must add the cost of the plant, the government contribution (again our money) and the cost of a backup gas turbine to rgenerate power when there is no sun. I will happily continue to build solar plants and back up plants but I think the average rate payer has on idea what it will do to thier power cost.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 15, 2011
Steven,
Thanks for the link.
Tam,
You are correct, I haven't kept up-to-date on solar.

I hadn't checked the DOE for over 4 months for new pricing data, but the last I had seen was "Tracking the Sun III" - which I have reviewed in depth and the author of the EES report cited. It had average numbers, not best case, and for 2009 the average was still $7.50.

It doesn't make sense that the deviation from the mean would be that large. Unless the plant is rated in annual peak output rather than rated as an ideal output.

I tend to think in terms of wind generation: first you have your nameplate capacity, then you have your capacity factor.

But solar thermal doesn't have the same rating/identification system. I've toured Solar Nevada One, and they rate that plant as a 64 MW solar facility - even though it has a 75 MW power plant with a peak output of 75 MW. But they give the plant a rating based on the AVERAGE ANNUAL PEAK, rather than what we would think of a "peak power", so as to get a better capacity factor.

I did not think this practice was standard with PV, but if it is that could explain a 40% deviation from the mean based on the latitude and local weather of the installation.

If that is the case... Again, I don't know.

Nonetheless, I've heard many reports of 25% cost reductions for 2010, but that would only get us to an average of $5.6/W, according to "Tracking the Sun III" (still a great resource).

Steven's link helps reinforce this, as it shows a "mid-sized" PV project (~7MW) to be over $6/W. It goes on to show that a "large" project (150 MW) would cost less, but I don't believe any PV project of that scale has ever been considered.

Can either of you guys (or any other solar advocate) explain the cost deviation between Tam's anecdote and all the government cost data for me?

I actually support solar in some cases. In the Southwest, at $6/W solar could compete with peak power (if you include subsidies). But I want the numbers to make sense.
Brian Neveil
Brian Neveil
February 15, 2011
Plain and simple, 1,000 lbs of solar on a roof puts out power for 25+ years, how long does a 1,000 lbs of coal/oil last in a generation plant? 30 seconds to be exact. Solar is here to run with the big boys of energy, please accept it.
David Curtis
David Curtis
February 15, 2011
The total solar energy absorbed by Earth's atmosphere, oceans and land masses is approximately 3,850,000 exajoules (EJ) per year. In 2002, this was more energy in one hour than the world used in one year.

The amount of solar energy reaching the surface of the planet is so vast that in one year it is about twice as much as will ever be obtained from all of the Earth's non-renewable resources of coal, oil, natural gas, and mined uranium combined.
Keep up the good work Solar Bros. Sock it to the oil and coal folk.
ANONYMOUS
February 15, 2011
"Solar markets grew in 2010 because of free government money, not because they're a good deal - financially or environmentally." - Anonymous

Dreams of a nuclear renaissance fester because the Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnities Act continues to shift the risks for supposedly private businesses into the public sector. Are the costs of such schemes included in LCOE analyses?
Rate Crimes
Rate Crimes
February 15, 2011
"Levelized" cost analysis is a tool for the expression of bias; regardless of where those biases lie. It is more a measure of desire than reality. If an LCOE analysis was performed by analysts from the year 7011, they might include the millennia of costs for managing – or even merely avoiding – radioactive waste from this century's nuclear power generation, or the damages to ecosystems from the combustion of fossil fuels, or the value of lost opportunities: costs we dismiss for our own convenience.
ANONYMOUS
February 15, 2011
Tam writes in comment #8: "We've gone back and forth in other threads and I've found you and a growing cohort of commenters (paid by someone perhaps?) impervious to evidence."

It is a bit paranoid to assume there are cohorts of paid commenters on sites such as these. Certainly if someone is paying for some of the comments I have seen they are not getting their money's worth.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
February 15, 2011
This Nov. 2010 EIA report:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/beck_plantcosts/pdf/updatedplantcosts.pdf

claims overnight capital costs for solar PV of $4.755/W for large installations (~150 MW) and $6.050/W for small installations (~7 MW) (see Table 1, pg.7 and section 24 for methodology). Tam's anecdotal numbers are lower than these but perhaps also slightly more recent.

Perhaps someone else can point to other published estimates....
Steven
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 14, 2011
Andrew W, I'm not sure what evidence would convince you. We've gone back and forth in other threads and I've found you and a growing cohort of commenters (paid by someone perhaps?) impervious to evidence. The figures I just gave are the gospel truth. If you have other contacts in the medium-scale solar market, feel free to inquire. It's common knowledge now that solar projects in the 1 MW and up range are around $4/watt total and falling (depending on whether tracking is included or not, which adds about 75 c/watt, but pays for itself due to about 25% increase in output).
ANONYMOUS
February 14, 2011
@Andrew_W:
How is what Tam provided not evidence? You don't seem to be able to handle legitimate debate. Every time someone presents evidence that refutes your point, you dodge it by calling them a "cheerleader."

It's pretty silly to see you make the same retort over and over, not matter what anyone says to you. Any time someone can comes back to you with evidence, you simply avoid it with name calling.

I'd love to know who you're getting paid by to troll comment boards and repeat the same lines in every post.
ANONYMOUS
February 14, 2011
Solar markets grew in 2010 because of free government money, not because they're a good deal - financially or environmentally.
Andrew W
Andrew W
February 14, 2011
@ Tam_Hunter:

Your exaggerated numbers might be plausible if you had some evidence. Your endorsement or your "belief" are not evidence.

The study is inaccurate and just another reason to doubt solar-promoters and cheerleaders.

Find some evidence. Please.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
February 14, 2011
Glenn, you're clearly out of touch with the solar market. I manage solar RFPs and the best pricing we've received so far was $4.50/watt AC (SPG Solar), and this is before subsidies. This was for a 1 MW ground-mounted single axis tracker system that is just about completed this week at a site near Bakersfield, CA. Costs are below $4/watt for a fixed-tilt system and as projects get bigger (in the 100s of MWs), total costs are about $3.50/watt. And dropping because global PV production capacity has far outstripped demand even in this booming solar market (solar installations grew 50% globally in 2010).

So $2.70/watt total cost is actually not unrealistic at all when we consider the likely cost curves in the next few years.
ANONYMOUS
February 14, 2011
Glenn's analysis is correct. This (magical) "study" is based on false numbers.

The Solar industry can't survive with just cheerleaders and promoters - we need real, verifiable facts. This study fails in that regard.

Solar is NOT competitive and it is certainly not affordable.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
February 14, 2011
The paper details a valid methodology of determining LCOE. One that is similar to current systems other than they use statistical modeling to more precisely determine the probabilities of various ranges rather than just state ranges and mean LCOE projected cost.

Overall, the paper is quite interesting, and I would strongly advise solar enthusiasts to read the paper so as to get a better understanding of LCOE considerations.

However: the paper assumes a $2.70/W installed cost for a PV system that has 1-axis tracking. That assumption further assumes that the government will pay 30% of this cost, so this is a BEFORE subsidy assumption, rather than an after-subsidy assumption.

According to the sources used in the paper, average pre-subsidy costs for commercial PV systems were $7.50/W in 2009, unchanged from 2008 and only 30% lower than what was seen in 1998.

I openly challenge any solar enthusiast, including any contributor to Renewable Energy World, to find a single instance in which the PRE-SUBSIDY cost of solar is below $6/W.

While the methodology outlined in the paper is interesting, the basic cost assumptions used are so far from realistic that it makes the results and position taken by the paper laughable.

The fact that this paper made it through the "peer review" of EES tells you everything you need to know about the integrity of the journal.

Having dealt with the editors of the supposedly "objective" journal of EES, I imagine that the authors first submitted a truly honest paper, and were required to alter their base estimated cost in order to get published...

Any investor considering a specific build project would have to type in his/her own real-world costs and find real data...

Nonetheless, the paper is well written and quite instructive.
Joseph Fournier
Joseph Fournier
February 14, 2011
Lets not forget the socioeconomic benefits associated with offsetting coal based electricity given the well known yet ignored external costs ($10 to $100 / MWh) to the tax payer caused by poor air quality and the resulting health care expenditures.

If these regionally specific external costs to health care could be converted into an offet market mechanism, there would be an undeniable business case for subsidising solar & wind electricity.

Likewise, there should be a place in the power market for solar & wind electricity producers to sell SO2 & NOx offset points in this particular cap and trade market.

Responsible and intelligent economic analysis should include the full life cycle & socioeconomic picture otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. While I have no doubt that wind and solar will obtain grid parity with coal in the near future, the truth of the matter is that they already would be if the coal power industry actually paid for the damage inflicted resulting from their "cheap" dirty power.

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Ucilia Wang

Ucilia Wang

Ucilia Wang is a California-based freelance journalist who writes about renewable energy. She previously was the associate editor at Greentech Media and a staff writer covering the semiconductor industry at Red Herring. In addition to Renewable...
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