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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Why Electric Vehicles Will Reduce Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Tam Hunt, Renewable Energy Consultant
January 11, 2011  |  160 Comments

A recent article by John Peterson argued that electric vehicles will take us backward in our efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and that today's hybrid cars are more effective in reducing GHGs. Peterson's commentary rests on recent research by Carnegie Mellon University regarding life-cycle emissions of various vehicle types.

I believe Peterson's highly negative view of electric vehicles is unwarranted and inaccurate due to a number of reasons that I describe below.

I have some familiarity with these issues in that I represent the Green Power Institute (a non-profit policy outfit based in the Bay Area) at the California Public Utilities Commission in the electric vehicle proceeding R. 09-08-009. This proceeding is considering numerous issues related to utility rate design for electric vehicles and state policies for integrating potentially large numbers of electric vehicles into the grid in coming years. Our comments in this proceeding can be found here.

I also was the lead author of the Community Environmental Council’s 2007 report, A New Energy Direction: A Blueprint for Santa Barbara County, which examined in detail how Santa Barbara County could wean itself from fossil fuels and save substantial money at the same time. I wrote the report not only as a detailed blueprint for one county, but also as a template for other counties and regions contemplating similar goals. I wrote in that report that alternatives to driving, driving smaller vehicles, and relying on hybrid vehicles were the best short-term options for reducing fossil fuel use. However, in the longer term, electrification of our transportation infrastructure was the most promising path:

"To wean our region off fossil fuels, we will need additional options beyond driving smaller cars and hybrid vehicles, or using biofuels such as ethanol and biodiesel. The next generation of vehicles will provide a sea change in how we transport ourselves and goods by allowing electricity to become the primary transportation energy instead of petroleum.

The idea is to “electrify” the transportation sector by actively transitioning to vehicles that run on electricity. This is advantageous even if we remain with today’s sources of electricity, because vehicles that use electricity as a fuel are two to three times more efficient than those that run on petroleum. However, the end goal is to change our electricity mix to all, or almost all, renewable electricity.

We realize that converting our primary supply of transportation fuel from oil to electricity may seem to be a radical program, but it is a tremendously promising path. If we follow this path nationally, we could reduce or [even] eliminate our dependence on foreign oil in just two or three decades and dramatically cut back on our greenhouse gas emissions."

I stick by these conclusions for the following reasons.

Peterson relies on a 2008 report by Carnegie Mellon University researchers Constantine Samaras and Kyle Meisterling. It is a little ironic that the slide that Peterson shows in his article, with similar data to Figure 1 below, is entitled “Electrified transportation has large GHG benefits with low-carbon electricity,” and yet Peterson states immediately after showing this slide: “the graph suggests that there is no meaningful air quality advantage to plug-in vehicles.”

The report does indeed conclude that electric vehicles yield modest improvements over hybrid vehicles with the current U.S. national electricity average emissions. However, Samaras and Meisterling recognize that the future may yield significant improvements in average emissions – as the title of the slide Peterson uses states.

Figure 1 below shows that under the posited “low carbon scenario” of 200 g/CO2 in the electricity sector, electric vehicles would produce about half the emissions of hybrid cars. “PHEV 90” represents a plug-in electric vehicle that can run 90 miles on batteries alone, which, while not possible today, will very likely become possible in a few years as battery technology improves. CV refers to conventional vehicles and HEV to hybrid vehicles. Samaras and Keisterling state (p. 3173): “Under the low-carbon scenario, large life cycle GHG reductions (51–63% and 30–47%, compared to CVs and HEVs, respectively) are possible with PHEVs.”

Figure 1. Vehicle GHG emissions for conventional vehicles (CV), hybrid vehicles (HEV) and plug-in electric vehicles (Source: Samaras and Meisterling 2008).

The Shift To Renewables and Natural Gas

The key to this debate, then, is how electricity sector GHG intensity will change over time. Are emissions going up or down? The Energy Information Administration stated in a very encouraging report from early 2010:

"The fuel mix and associated carbon intensity of most sectors have tended to be very stable over time.  However, in 2009, the carbon intensity of the electric power sector decreased by nearly 4.3 percent, primarily due to fuel switching as the price of coal rose 6.8 percent from 2008 to 2009 while the comparable price of natural gas fell 48 percent on a per Btu basis.  The carbon content of natural gas is about 45 percent lower than the carbon content of coal and modern natural gas generation plants that can compete to supply base load electricity often use significantly less energy input to produce a kilowatt-hour of electricity than a typical coal-fired generation plant.  For both of these reasons, increased use of natural gas in place of coal caused the sector’s carbon intensity to decrease."

The accompanying chart tells us even more (note that the electric power sector emissions started dipping in 2006):

Figure 2: Carbon intensity of primary energy supply by sector (Source: EIA).

The takeaway point here is that the United States is at the start of a long-term shift away from coal toward renewable energy and natural gas, with nuclear power probably slowly diminishing also. I’ve written recently about the very encouraging decade-long growth trend of wind and solar power in the U.S. Wind and solar power have grown 30-40% annually in recent years and solar grew 100% in 2010 – despite a still-weak economy (wind power growth dropped substantially, unfortunately).

Perhaps as importantly, we have seen a significant drop in natural gas prices in the last couple of years driven in part by increased supplies from oil shale. I personally don’t support the use of more natural gas as a sustainable long-term solution, particularly not from oil shale, for various environmental and economic concerns. But I do recognize, as the EIA wrote in the passage quoted above, that there has been a significant shift away from coal and toward natural gas for many power plants that can switch fuel swhen economically advantageous to do so. And this trend also looks to continue for some years.

As a result of these and other similar trends, the U.S. economy has seen a massive 41% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions intensity in recent years (Figure 3). GHG “intensity” refers to the amount of emissions per dollar of GDP and is a measure of the efficiency of an economy. Electricity sector emissions haven’t seen as large a reduction, as the previous figure showed, but we can reasonably expect to see much larger reductions over the longer term if the trend witnessed in the last few years continues.

Figure 3. US GHG intensity 1990-2008 (Source: EIA).


Regional Versus National Averages

An even more important mistake in Peterson’s critique is his reliance on average national emissions from the electricity sector. In fairness, the Samaras and Meisterling report makes this assumption also, but it is a very poor assumption when considering the real world policy implications of the issues they analyze. It is very clear, based on adoption rates for hybrid cars and other high-efficiency vehicles in recent decades, that electric vehicle adoption will be far higher in states that have far lower electricity sector emissions than other parts of the country.

A student of mine, Christian Del Maestro, completed an excellent paper in 2009, still unpublished, that examined the regional impacts of electric vehicle adoption. His conclusions regarding the national average are congruent with those from the Carnegie Mellon study, but he also looked at state-level emissions. He found that all but a few states yield significant GHG benefits when compared to HEVs and CVs. And some of the most populous states, like California and New York, will result in electric vehicle emissions less than half of those for the 2009 Prius because of the relatively clean electricity mix in these states.

Figure 4. Carbon emissions by state for a Chevy Volt, 2009 Prius and 2009 Cobalt (Source: Christian Del Maestro).  

Clearly we can’t ignore geographic adoption patterns when considering the real world results of electric vehicle adoption and related energy policy considerations.

Energy Independence and Peak Oil

More generally, GHG reductions are not the only benefit of electric vehicles. The most significant immediate benefit for owners is that they’re so dang cheap to run. A “fill up” for an electric car will cost about $1.50 – a massive benefit compared to $30-50 for a gas fill up in a typical car. This is the economic rationale for paying higher up-front costs for electric vehicles.

And those who own electric cars almost always highlight the pleasures of driving an electric car versus a regular car. Electric cars are quiet and fun to drive.

From a policy perspective, another benefit is far more important: the ability of electric vehicles to wean us from reliance on petroleum as the primary transportation fuel. As I noted in A New Energy Direction, electrification of the transportation sector is the most promising long-term option we have for getting away from petroleum. Whether we worry about petroleum dependence because of national security concerns or peak oil, or other reasons, it is clear that electric vehicles present a far larger benefit in this aspect than CVs or HEVs because the latter types of vehicles run, of course, on petroleum. I’ve written many times at this website about the threat of peak oil and I will be presenting a comprehensive update in the coming weeks.

We need to get very serious about reducing our reliance on petroleum and other fossil fuels. Electric vehicles should be – and very likely will be – a major part of any successful effort to do so.

Tam Hunt is president of Community Renewable Solutions LLC, a company focused on community-scale wind and solar energy; he is also a Lecturer on climate change law and policy and renewable energy law and policy at UC Santa Barbara’s Bren School of Environmental Science & Management.

160 Comments

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Andrew W
Andrew W
January 24, 2011
Thanks Glenn. I'll visit your website again.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 24, 2011
Tam -
The biggest advantage for CA in terms of grid integration for deeper wind penetration is the enormous amount of hydro that is available between Washington, Oregon, and Northern CA. That's your biggest advantage.

As for the grid integration study (I'll read it, but I only have a few minutes of experiment-babysitting at a time before something requires my attention), I might believe it if they don't consider time lag... but that is the majority of the cost. It doesn't technically cost very much to roll out the wire along a pre-designated track between posts... it takes YEARS of court battles and paperwork to get access to be allowed to roll out the wire. The legal work costs, but the delay costs fortunes. Often the land is bought and left idle for more than 6 years before work begins.
A single 200 mile high-voltage line run has cost more than a billion dollars in the past, and taken over a decade... That cost is not the aggregate of blue-collar labor + cost of delivered insulated wire.

But CA doesn't need to upgrade its grid substantially to accommodate 20% wind energy - it just needs Oregon and Washington to uprate their dams.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 24, 2011
Glenn, the report I referred you to summarizes about 15 studies from around the country, all of which tell a similar story: grid integration costs for wind even at penetrations upwards of 15% amounts to about 10% of the cost of power. The Powerpoint I referred you to summarizes these studies in one page. It won't take long to check it out.

As for TX and grid integration more generally, it's not just the average cost of integration that matters - it's also the time it takes to build out necessary infrastructure. Integration studies generally separate integration resource needs and analysis from transmission planning. As you know, transmission planning can take many years and TX was, from what I understand, taken a bit by surprise at how fast wind power grew from almost nothing to about 10 GW in just a few years. So, yes, transmission issues can be tricky, especially on an isolated grid like ERCOT. CA and most other states in the US have far more interconnected grids, which makes this less of a problem. CA is part of WECC, which comprises much of the western US, making integration easier in some ways but harder in others.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 24, 2011
@ Tam,

I'm familiar with time-of-day pricing incentives. In some markets there is indeed a $100/MWh price difference between nighttime energy and peak daytime energy. That, however, is very rarely the case in markets that have high wind penetration... and it is never the case in a region that has greater than 5% deeper wind penetration than hydro penetration.

This is because there is no affordable grid storage mechanism other than uprated hydro, and without grid storage the wind energy must be "covered" by spare fossil capacity. It is precisely the sharp reduction in spare capacity which causes peak prices to spike, so the presence of deep penetrations of wind power eliminate this... and the price of peak power drops quickly. Of course, the price of off-peak power also drops, but curtailment keeps prices from going too deeply negative.

In Minnesota, which has the second highest penetration of wind power (and when we did our first data mining had the highest level - which is why it was chosen for data mining), the average peak energy price was only ~$30/MWh greater than the average off-peak energy price. No grid stability will work in that environment, ESPECIALLY as there's no affordable means of hydropower expansion.

As for the grid integration study, I don't have time to read it right now... but if it says what you claim then the study is garbage, which will not be the first time that is the case. If grid integration was that simple then Texas would have been able to solve it's problems quickly and T. Boone Pickens wouldn't have lost his shirt on the panhandle projects. The real world says your study is full of shit, and grid integration is a nightmare.

Sorry, but you either need to read the fine print or find a better study.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 24, 2011
@ Andrew,

I can't say that I'm familiar with Myriant, to be honest... but I can say without looking at any more than the press release that Myriant will have very limited impact. They're biofuels, we're industrial CO2 recycling...

The issue with biomass is one of scalability. It's pretty easy to find a region that has a little excess biomass that is profitably harvested and sold. This is especially true of woody pulp and waste biomass. However, in 2001 the major draw for corn-derived ethanol was that corn was selling for $1/b. By 2006, the price of corn had increased 8fold, and making ethanol from corn was a sure loser (even with endless subsidies more than half of the ethanol producers went under).

The same will be true of any other biomass project that could be considered. If said process is actually cost effective, it cannot scale without quickly seeing demand for the feedstock exceed accessible supply, and quickly becoming non-cost effective.

We're using CO2. There's no shortage of CO2 emissions until we exceed the current global demand for fuel itself, and there's very little competing demand (EOR and beverage demand combined doesn't comprise even 1% of emissions).
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 24, 2011
@Tam_Hunt:

You continue to engage me because you are a promoter. All I am asking is to provide a single solar or wind project that has provided a good ROI to investors. I am aware of several that did not meet the projected returns and even with subsidies they are marginal deals.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 24, 2011
The CA Report does not suggest wind is "affordable" or that wind farms are good investments. In Texas we have had to pay utilities to take our power because it is mostly way "off-peak."

Wind and solar only make sense for developers that take fees upfront. You have NOT provided a single project that shows a favorable ROI for investors. With so many subsidized projects completed, certainly you can find one good project to brag about?
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 24, 2011
Andrew, I don't know why I continue to engage with you b/c you're clearly not amenable to facts. Here's one more effort: the LBNL report shows that wind power is competitive in all power markets on a wholesale real-time basis. This is in fact an unfair comparison, even though wind power is still competitive in this comparison, because renewable energy contracts are almost always long-term contracts and not sold into spot markets.

For a better comparison, see this 2009 CA Energy Commission report examining the costs of various technologies with both subsidies and without subsidies, showing that wind power is competitive even without subsidies.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2F2009publications%2FCEC-200-2009-017%2FCEC-200-2009-017-SD.PDF&rct=j&q=levelized%20cost%20central%20station%20energy%20commission&ei=gLs9TebuN4-4sAP12bmXAw&usg=AFQjCNHoiIB_IE4YrT6KGfW5VE1MYcEaAg&sig2=ZmV2SqhipKltLXAfqeNu4g&cad=rja
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 24, 2011
Andrew, I don't know why I continue to engage with you b/c you're clearly not amenable to facts. Here's one more effort: the LBNL report shows that wind power is competitive in all power markets on a wholesale real-time basis. This is in fact an unfair comparison, even though wind power is still competitive in this comparison, because renewable energy contracts are almost always long-term contracts and not sold into spot markets.

For a better comparison, see this 2009 CA Energy Commission report examining the costs of various technologies with both subsidies and without subsidies, showing that wind power is competitive even without subsidies.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2F2009publications%2FCEC-200-2009-017%2FCEC-200-2009-017-SD.PDF&rct=j&q=levelized%20cost%20central%20station%20energy%20commission&ei=gLs9TebuN4-4sAP12bmXAw&usg=AFQjCNHoiIB_IE4YrT6KGfW5VE1MYcEaAg&sig2=ZmV2SqhipKltLXAfqeNu4g&cad=rja
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 24, 2011
@Glenn: How does your innovation compare to Myriant?

http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/01/24/daily5-Quincy-biofuels-maker-Myriant-raises-60M.html
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 24, 2011
The Report never touts Wind as a viable investment Tam. It does state that without generous subsidies we wouldn't have ANY wind farms. That's hardly an endorsement of wind energy.

Until we have a storage breakthrough, wind will continue to be an expensive supplement. Solar is even more expensive.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 24, 2011
Glenn, not all power plants require battery storage (no renewable energy projects do in CA). The link works - you probably included the period. Here it is again:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/emp/reports/lbnl-3716e-ppt.pdf

The studies on page 55 all look at total integration costs - far more than switching charges. Each ISO or RTO's area is different, of course, but the common theme that springs from the many studies summarized by LBNL is that integration costs are a small fraction of the total power cost for renewables, even at high levels of penetration. This is generally the case b/c today's grid's include planning reserve margins of at least 15%, allowing the integration and balancing of not only renewables but other power sources, all of which need balancing.

I'm involved in the long-term procurement proceeding for a client of mine and we're collectively looking in detail at what the utilities need to procure in the next ten years to integrate 33% renewables by 2020. We've discovered already that utility models have some serious flaws that significantly over-estimate new natural gas generation requirements because of faulty assumptions.

As for battery storage, your cost analysis misses the point that battery storage allows not only balancing but also time-shifting such that PPA prices are maximized. So if power can be sold in Hawaii on peak at, say, 30 c/kWh instead of 15 off peak, there's still a substantial profit even if the batteries cost 10 c/kWh on a levelized basis.

Here's a recent study by KEMA for the CPUC looking in detail at the potential for battery storage in CA:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2010publications/CEC-500-2010-010/CEC-500-2010-010.PDF

KEMA concluded that battery storage of 1,200 MW would be required to accommodate 33% renewables by 2020 if batteries were used, instead of an equivalent 4,800 MW of gas generation. No cost comparison was included, however.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 23, 2011
Tam,
I've heard of Hawaii's battery projects, though I can't find cost data anywhere. I had looked that up when doing research into competing (or blatantly non-competitive) grid storage options. I don't know what they're paying for their 10 MW battery pack, but I do know that the batteries are nowhere near competitive. ALL power plants have spinning reserve battery packs, it is required. The actual amount of batteries needed for spinning reserve and power smoothing is reduced with a larger and more interconnected grid - which Hawaii simply does not and will not have. So they have to have a larger ratio of battery/power.

The rest is just smoke and hype by a battery company. 10 MW of battery packs cannot stabilize the grid for 21 MW of wind, power just doesn't work that way.

If you'd like to read our peer-reviewed study on storage costs, simply go to www.WindFuels.com, and look along the right-hand column for "To access publications and patents CLICK HERE"... Upon redirect you then can look for "Projections of levelized cost benefit of grid-scale energy storage options."

You'll see that cycling energy through batteries adds an average of ~$0.10/kWh to the final price, this is not a viable idea for most of America where the customer is paying ~$0.10/kWh.

As for the lbl report that you linked to, I can't follow the link... but I'm sure that if they came up with ~$10/MWh they are discussing switching charges as ISO's, not grid expansion and certainly not curtailment issues.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 23, 2011
Glenn, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree for now on the economics of solar projects and some aspects of wind power projects. However, to the broader point of integration of renewables at high penetration levels, this is of course a very live issue in many jurisdictions and numerous studies have been completed in recent years. LBNL puts out an annual report on the wind market and this presentation lists on p. 55 a number of the recent studies, finding that integration costs for high penetration of wind are expected to be quite low at just about 10% of the cost of energy (less than $10/MWh in all cases)

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/emp/reports/lbnl-3716e-ppt.pdf.

CAISO's recently completed study looking at 20% renewables in California (to be achieved about 2012) concluded that literally no new integration resources would be required by then because the grid is already flexible enough to integrate these resources.

And here's a link to a story about Hawaii's planned use of Xtreme Power's battery technologies, one of the many possible integration technologies, to integrate very high levels of wind penetration at now four wind power projects. High wind penetration is not a problem in most areas of the country yet but in Hawaii and in Texas it has become a problem and these areas are pioneering solutions that will eventually be adopted around the country and the world.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110105005462/en/Xtreme-Power-Selected-Fourth-Hawaii-Installation
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 23, 2011
@ I think wind power would fit the bill if there was something to do with the nightly excesses. Average costs are only $0.06/kWh before subsidies are included, but of course ~65% of that is produced off-peak. However, if the peak energy is sold at $0.15/kWh, and the off-peak but still unsaturated energy is sold at $0.08/kWh, then the 6-8 hours in the dead of the night when 35% of the power would normally be produced could still be curtailed and the wind farm would make money - it just wouldn't be a good investment in that case. However, with even a $0.02/kWh subsidy to essentially balance the amount of money you'll save on welfare checks by installing the wind farm, and an additional $0.01/kWh for the 35% of the energy you can't sell to the grid being diverted to WindFuels plants... the wind farm in the U.S corridor comfortably makes a good enough return for a long-term low risk investment.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 23, 2011
@glenn-doty-175949:

I mostly agree. Maybe wind and solar investments create some jobs (minimal benefit), but we shouldn't continue to suggest they are viable investments OR solutions.

Any so-called "breakthrough" must make market sense. It must be affordable and dispatchable. Wind and solar have yet to accomplish that. We need reliable electricity generation that is clean and affordable - that means $.08-$.12 per kWh.

Maybe we'll find it. The sooner the better.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 23, 2011
@ Andrew,

I'm sorry you lost out on your wind investments. I don't actually think that wind will get better as an investment vehicle until they can do something to provide grid stability for deeper penetration.

We do agree on solar... and likely agree on nuclear. Neither are competitive at any level without strong government subsidies.

I would, however, offer this reminder: If government subsidies are used to help promote renewable energy, that effectively works to shift consumption of energy from land despoilment, pollution, and health issues - to LABOR. Installing wind turbines, solar fields, and nuclear reactors is home grown work - and a damn lot of it. If those subsidies result in ~100 million additional man hours of labor in a year, that means that 50,000 welfare/unemployment cases are no longer payed out. Of course, the accommodation cost of global warming is likely to be an additional $20-$40/ton-CO2 as well. So some government subsidies are justified in that their moving outlays that would normally be payed elsewhere into renewable energy.

This doesn't work to make solar (or nuclear) actually competitive, but it does narrow the gap between current cost and what would be viable once the externalities were properly considered.

That said, we started with the idea that if our process wasn't market viable without subsidies then it would not truly make a significant impact on either fuel consumption or global warming. We still believe that to be true, and believe that we will be openly competitive with oil even in its deepest troughs in the years to come.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 23, 2011
@Glenn: Thanks for the detailed information.

Hopefully wind projects are becoming good investments. As an investor I've been in three wind deals - all losers. But they are improving. I wouldn't put a dime into a solar scheme. Not yet. Wind is difficult enough and solar is at least 3X expensive.

Cheerleading doesn't change that. Predictably, the Solar-industry has more cheerleaders than thinkers.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 22, 2011
Correction Tam, it was 2009 that saw 10 GW of wind added. 2010 will have less than 5 GW. Also, most contracts in the midwest are only 3-5 years, then are renegotiated. They used to be for 20 years, but after power companies started getting burned with negative pricing, and excess energy started being flushed through unnecessary nighttime usage (all the lights left on in every government building, for instance), some energy started being grounded or wasted through resistor banks, and there was STILL constantly growing negative energy, no power company will now sign a 20-year PPA contract with a wind farm.

That said, the wind projects going up are still quite profitable, even with the prospect of 20-30% curtailment. I don't know of any solar project that has justified its cost (or come close)... but we agree that an investor can make good money through wind (10-20% ROI) as long as the wind subsidies hold.

As for wind turbines breaking down, average O&M costs for the wind sector are near $10/MWh, and have been dropping steadily every year, with that drop accelerating in the past 5 years. 98% of all wind turbines put up in the 80's are still performing at the same production level they achieved in the 80's... I imagine that most wind farms should average over 50-year lifetimes, but the current finances only rate them for 25 years, so any investment has to consider a 25-35 year horizon.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 22, 2011
Andrew, look at the report I linked: there are hundreds of successful projects listed. Why on earth do you think 10 GW of new wind was added in 2010? So that investors could lose money? PPA contracts are typically for 20 years. So once capital costs are determined and there is good wind data at the site at issue the revenue projections are quite reliable. The only exceptions are when turbines break down more than expected, which has happened with some wind farms but it's pretty rare.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 22, 2011
Andrew, look at the report I linked: there are hundreds of successful projects listed. Why on earth do you think 10 GW of new wind was added in 2010? So that investors could lose money? PPA contracts are typically for 20 years. So once capital costs are determined and there is good wind data at the site at issue the revenue projections are quite reliable. The only exceptions are when turbines break down more than expected, which has happened with some wind farms but it's pretty rare.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 22, 2011
@ Andrew,
Right now we are in the early development stage, so our costs are based on projections from similar technology and detailed simulations...
We do have some economics projections on the website, but most of that is outlined in our business plan.

If you'd like an example, consider the following:
Post deployment, we expect enough curtailed wind power to be available that we should easily be able to negotiate a $10/MWh price for energy (currently excess nighttime energy carries a negative price, so this is pretty conservative ). Said $20 MW plant will consume ~175 GWh's/yr for a net cost of ~$1.75M.

Current delivered prices for beverage-grade CO2 is ~$75/ton (this will drop rapidly once carbon emissions are priced). At 58% net system efficiency (our near term target), the plant will require ~25.3 kilotons/yr of CO2, for a yearly cost of ~$1.8M.

We project that post-deployment we should be able to construct a 20 MW plant with a 60-80 MW hot alkaline electrolyzer stack for ~$32M... A 10% discount rate for a 30-year plant gives a yearly capital expense of ~$3.37M.

O&M for the plant should be between $200K - $500K, based on refinery O&M expenses.

All told, at 58% efficiency the plant would produce ~2.4 Mgal/yr of gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel; as well as ~2 kt/year of chemical feedstocks and industrial solvents; ~34 kilotons of medical grade liquid O2; up to 400 tons H2, and up to 74 GWhs of sellable waste heat (depending on siting). Assuming today's prices for these products, no local H2 market, no local market for waste heat, no fuel production credits, and no carbon offsets, that plant would see a revenue of ~$13M (ROI ~17%).

If oil was $135, plant siting was such that there was a local fertilizer plant that needed 200 tons-H2/year, and a local industrial building that would pay $10/MWh of waste heat, and a $0.75/gallon tax credit, and a $10/t-CO2 offset. Revenue would be ~$22.1M (ROI 46.5%).

If oil was $200/bbl then revenue could exceed $30M.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 21, 2011
@Tam: So you don't have any successful projects to direct us to? I figured.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 21, 2011
PS. Andrew, your link re investments in RE misses the point: it focuses on investments in on-site RE projects. This is a niche market that is a small fraction of the utility grid RE market. What I've been discussing refers only to the utility grid RE market. Net-metered on-site projects are a different ball of wax.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 21, 2011
Andrew, I've already gone over the economics of solar projects with you in some detail. They're typically 8-12% after-tax equity ROI - which believe me is very good for a very stable investment akin to a bond (which lasts 25 years). 20-25% is completely unrealistic in today's environment for comparable low-risk projects. You can't separate return from risk because they are inversely correlated.

As for wind, check out the detailed cost figures from LBNL's most recent report:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/ems/reports/lbnl-3716e.pdf

Now consider what Glenn already mentioned, which is pretty accurate for Midwestern wind projects at least (it varies by region, as the LBNL report shows), and do the math for a 30% tax credit (or cash grant) or 2.2 c/kWh production tax credit (you can choose either one of these three right now), and accelerated depreciation (usually over a 5 year schedule, but 100% in year one through 2011, known as "bonus depreciation"). And consider the fact that PPA prices are much higher than the 6 c/kWh Glenn mentioned in many states. For example, in CA, where I live, PPA prices are as high as 15 c/kWh when we factor in time of delivery boosters (up to a 30% boost for peak delivery depending on where the project is located).

Wind power after-tax equity ROI varies from 8% up to 20%, but industry expectations are usually 10-14%.

So, again, we don't need major technology breakthroughs to rapidly build out the renewable grid. We have the technologies here now. Will breakthroughs help? Of course. And I'm very excited about new turbine technologies and on-turbine LIDAR devices, which combined can boost net capacity factor by up to 5%. But these things are all icing on the cake. The cake is ready to eat already.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 21, 2011
@glenn-doty-175949: I have visited your website (several times) and i think you need to provide some data on the costs. I get the concept, but I haven't been able to see it's financial implementation.

I don't think it is the "breakthrough" I was referring to (clean, affordable electricity) but I see the value as a fuel. That raise the same ethanol questions about real cost and pollutants.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 21, 2011
@ChristofHeinrich: A "breakthrough" would be an electricity generating technology that was clean AND affordable.

Wind and Solar haven't accomplished that - yet. Who knows if they will. But, we are wasting time and money subsidizing mediocrity.

Several cheerleaders post their "assurances" that wind and solar are THE answer, but the numbers disagree.

I think we need DOE to offer a significant prize - $1 billion, for an ANSWER. Every day I get emails about "breakthroughs" and they are not. Even wind and solar developers claim breakthroughs.

I'm an investor. That's my approach to our energy challenge. I have NEVER seen "clean, affordable electricity generation" and that should be our primary goal. This Post is about EVs, yet they will run primarily on coal-generated electricity. That's stupid.

We have the knowledge and the experience to recognize a breakthrough when we see one. DOE should make that happen. At the very least we could discover there are no breakthroughs, but even that would be progress.

So, I am suggesting a big prize and a method to provide an informed analysis of ideas, technologies, etc.

Maybe there IS a breakthrough available, but we'll never know with the way we do business today. DOE spent $20 billion on "development deals" in 2010. Not a single one is a breakthrough technology.

We should continue to invest in R+D for promising cleantech ideas, but we must shift our focus to solutions. $1 billion will do that.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 21, 2011
@ Andrew,

We largely agree, though I think that wind farms are doing well enough with their current subsidies that they will continue to build-out at ~3-5 GW/year here in America. But if you want to find your breakthrough, check out our work:
www.WindFuels.com

With that, wind will have an unlimited growth potential, and there will finally be a competitor to fossil transportation fuel that is actually competitive and has no limit to scale-up.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 21, 2011
@Andrew_W: So, what, exactly, would qualify as a "breakthrough"? What does this look like, specifically? How do we get there, and how long does it take? Finally, assuming it takes a long time, why give up totally on what you apparently see as inadequate/interim solutions, an approach which forces us to pump fossil fuel waste into the atmosphere at an ever greater rate?
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 21, 2011
Technology Review reports:

Is Renewable Energy a "Good" Investment? The answer is still no. After all, many companies have pretty high standards for what is considered "good." In the world of corporate finance, it generally means a 20 to 25 percent annual return.

---------

Most of the recent data on Wind Farms indicates they are underperforming. I haven't seen many profitable wind farms here or in Europe. Many are in trouble, despite incredible subsidies.


http://www.technologyreview.com/business/27000/

Wind may be performing better than Solar schemes, but it isn't dispatchable and therefore worth much less.

My point is we are investing a bunch of money in marginal projects and we should be seeking a breakthrough, first. During the last 20 years we have wasted $200 billion on wind/solar schemes and very little impact on our energy problem.

We need a breakthrough. Pretending wind and solar are "good investments" defeats that objective. (SEE: Germany and Spain)
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 21, 2011
@Andrew,

The typical cost for a large-scale wind project in the U.S. Great Plains works out to ~$1.80/W, after transmission/hook-up to the grid. Assume the following: 7.5% discount rate, 33% capacity factor, 35-year longevity, $10/MWh O&M. (These are averages seen throughout the Northern Midwest... 35-year longevity is extremely conservative based on performance of Windmills installed in the mid-80's, of which less than 4% are no longer operating).

Plug that into your calculator and you should end up with ~$60/MWh. Note that is the AVERAGE cost. Some wind farms have seen capacity factors exceed 45%, while some have had final installed costs for less than $1.50/W. Now, consider that many of these installations receive ~30% of their total cost back as a credit, and the government adds ~$20/MWh for wind-produced energy, and most regions offer private subsidies (green-tags) of between $10-$50/MWh... and you find a fairly profitable overall investment opportunity.

That is, until the nighttime market is saturated and you either have to curtail a large portion of your off-peak power or you have to pay to get others to take it...

I'll agree with you on solar, which still has total installed costs of >$5/W, and usual capacity factors are under 20%..., while longevity is 20-30 years but with significant degradation... but solar does have the advantage of aligning largely with peak load, so the base value of its produced power is higher. (It still has ~ a couple of breakthroughs to go before being market viable on a grand scale).
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 20, 2011
@Tam: Show us a "profitable" wind or solar project. Show us an example of the returns for the last 5 years for one of your profitable wind or solar deals. There must be a documented project you can provide a link to. Many a news article?

That would be helpful. Cheerleading your own business, isn't.
ANONYMOUS
January 20, 2011
AWEA says: On July 27, the American Wind Energy Association issued a press release urging a federal mandate for renewable electricity and lamenting the fact that new wind-energy installations had fallen dramatically during the second quarter compared to 2008 and 2009. The lobby group's CEO, Denise Bode, declared that the "U.S. wind industry is in distress."
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 20, 2011
Andrew, I'm not going to go into yet another pointless back and forth with you b/c you've shown you're immune to facts. But take my word for it, as a wind and solar power developer I can tell you that these projects can be quite profitable for developers and at the same time beneficial to ratepayers. Most projects in the US receive about a 30% tax credit (or 2.2 c/kWh production tax credit) or cash grant, which is a significant boost, and accelerated depreciation. And that's it. Some larger solar projects are getting loan guarantees, but keep in mind that this isn't a grant - it's just the government backing the loan in order to get a percentage point or two less in interest rates from private lenders.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 20, 2011
Sorry (again) Bob, there are many "wind farms" and "solar schemes" receiving "stimulus funds."

Here's a good one, $450 million:

http://climateerinvest.blogspot.com/2010/12/wind-powerful-democrats-help-chinese.html
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 20, 2011
Really, Bob? the few studies about the performance of Wind Farms claims they're don't perform very well.

Here's one: "Wind turbines 'less efficient than claimed'
Wind turbines are 25 per cent less effective than the renewable energy industry claims, according to research."

After two decades of hyping Wind and Solar schemes, the data is now coming in and it isn't good.

The only reason we saw investment this year was 100% financing by our brilliant government. You can do ANYTHING with 100% financing.

from Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/renewableenergy/8236254/Wind-turbines-less-efficient-than-claimed.html
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 20, 2011
The slowing investment in Wind Development(despite insane subsidies) is because they don't perform. Solar has the same problem. With each year that passes we see how BAD these investments are and would NEVER have happened without "free money."
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 20, 2011
Make that "wind power is NOW at a scale..." instead of "not at a scale"
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 20, 2011
Glenn, we'll see what the final numbers are soon for wind in 2010, but I do agree it's been a bad year compared to 2009.

As for the stimulus bill, however, Congress extended the section 1603 cash grant program by a year in December, but projects must only begin construction by the end of 2011 to qualify, and the federal PTC and ITC (both of which are available for wind) extend through 2012. So we have at least two more years of subsidies for wind.

The solar ITC extends until 2016.

As for Congress being taken over by Republicans, keep in mind that even though the GOP controls the house wind power subsidies are largely a bipartisan affair nowadays because many midwestern states have seen wind jobs and investments boom in recent years. Wind power is not at a scale that it has a lot of lobbying power so my money is on the PTC and ITC being extended at least through 2014.

As for storage options, keep in mind that storage can often pay for itself through time shifting sale of power to peak demand periods. Solar Reserve and other companies claim that storage solutions are already cost-effective because the increased capital cost is more than offset by the extra revenue from time shifting. And in CA, storage is a good thing b/c we actually have an evening peak.

Time will tell on these new storage technologies, however, and I try not to take companies' pronouncement as gospel until they are verified by independent third parties.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 20, 2011
Tam,

I hadn't had time to check any numbers from AWEA since this summer - I've been too busy setting up a catalysis lab. Now I'm babysitting several multi-cycle experiments and I can catch up on my reading (and obviously blogging).

The third quarter was a full GW less installed than had been predicted during the summer, bringing the first three quarters of 2010 to only ~2 GWs total installed, and now AWEA is projecting south of 5 GWs for the total year. Again, I'm still confident that several projects were delayed, so I'll be surprised if 2010 sees more than 4 GWs installed.

This is the last year that the stimulous money could apply to a finished project, so enthusiasm should dip dramatically for the next couple of years until the Democrats win back congress (hopefully).

I do believe that it will continue to grow and continue to penetrate - largely because of state RPS requirements. But there is no chance that we'll see 10 GW/year installed until WindFuels, or a competing product that I'm not aware of, is deployment ready. Wind NEEDS a grid stability solution in order to see market-driven growth again. That's all I was saying before.

As for your enthusiasm for CAES and batteries... not so much. Both are well over three times as expensive as could possibly be market justified even in the best cases. Pumped hydro is not really competitive anymore except in places that have existing systems and just need to be uprated. Uprating standard hydro can help balance the variability of wind to some degree, but neither hydro nor pumped hydro will help the midwest - there's no hills out there (there is some interesting work with underground pumped hydro in emptied natural gas reservoirs, but I think that longevity and maintenance issues will keep that from being viable).

Molten salt thermal storage is a very cost effective energy storage for CSP, but CSP itself isn't yet competitive, and solar matches peak needs well enough that storage isn't needed.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 20, 2011
Steven, I certainly agree with you that we're very unlikely to reach 50% wind and solar by 2020 - that was an extrapolation of the previous ten years' growth trend, which I agree is unlikely to continue for various reasons. However, I do think it's realistic to expect half of the previous ten years' growth rate to continue, which gets us there by 2030. Keep in mind that compressed air energy storage, pumped hydro storage, molten salt thermal storage and battery storage are all improving dramatically, so it's likely that a large number of new wind and solar projects will include storage. There are now two 10 MW battery storage projects planned to balance wind in Hawaii and this state is a great lab for other states b/c it's way ahead of other states in terms of wind penetration b/c the grids are so small on each island. It's showing us our future and how we can integrate large amounts of wind and solar into our grids.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 20, 2011
Glenn, Texas was a big part of the national wind capacity addition for a number of years and as you know it dropped to almost zero in 2010. This was a result of dramatically falling natural gas prices, thus no new PPAs AND a strained transmission grid. Yes, there are multiple factors at play in real world phenomena.

While TX was a large part of the national wind capacity additions in previous years, and its disappearance in 2010 was a very significant factor in 2010 being a slower year than 2009, the TX market is not the same as the national market. The national market is the national market and even at 6 GW in 2010 (or 7 if AWEA is right), that's still a good year, but not quite the door buster year that 2009 was. As for future years, my money is on wind continuing to expand at a healthy pace though probably at a slower pace than 2009 for sure. Note that we're still way ahead of DOE's 20% wind by 2030 schedule - very good news for the industry and for the nation.
ANONYMOUS
January 20, 2011
Tam writes in comment 110:
"As I mentioned above, wind and solar have grown 30-40% each year in the US for the last ten years, approximately doubling every two years or so. This is Moore's Law in renewable energy. I calculate in this piece that the US gets to about 50% wind and solar by 2020 under current growth rates (let alone other renewables). But let's assume it's half that rate - we get there by 2030. "

Wind growth in 2006 was below 30% and 2010 will negative growth. The term "Moore's law" isn't appropriate to the renewables field--no one wants to cram smaller and smaller wind mills onto the same plot of land and no one is predicting a halving of price every couple years.

It is extremely optimistic to think that the grid will be ready to handle 50% intermittent renewables in 10-20 years time. Moreover, no one is going to want to retire power plants before their rated lifetimes so the best one might reasonably hope for is 100% of new generation capacity. I very much doubt that gets you to 50% of electricity production in 20 years even if some base load renewable (e.g., enhanced geothermal) should become affordable.
Steven
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 20, 2011
@Christof,

Yes, if you have a dedicated solar system exclusively for your EV then you have technically not added additional fossil load to the grid.

However, if you plug your solar system into the grid, you could reduce fossil load by whatever energy you produce... your decision to charge your EV with that energy instead therefore has only the marginal benefit of the fossil load compared to tar-sands gasoline... Again, that is a benefit, just not a cost effective one.

As I said, your solar is clearly good for CO2 mitigation. Your car is using that solar energy - which if not for your car would be used somewhere else to mitigate fossil energy production... The solar is clearly good, while the EV is far less net positive impact.


@Tam,
The first 3 quarters of 2010 had ~3 GWs of new installations. There was scheduled to be another 4 GWs that were supposed to be completed in the fourth quarter, but I know of a least 3 large farms that were delayed, and I suspect several others were as well. I look forward to AWEA's year-end report... but I'll bet you America didn't make 6 GWs. That said, there's only another ~2.5 GWs (beyond those 4) under construction across all of America, and there's not much more scheduled to begin soon. This is, if not a crash, certainly a significant setback.

You state that Texas was "caught by surprise" from rapid build-out of wind power without supporting infrastructure - and that is one of the dominant reasons for the (not?) crash... yet somehow that is not a matter of excess energy and curtailment, so I am the only one saying this is the problem. Classic.

FYI, the DOE (which I have a general disagreement with about many projections, for what its worth), have for some time predicted a precipitous crash in the wind industry for just this reason. Until they find a cost-effective grid energy storage, this will be a serious problem.

I think you don't appreciate either the cost or the timescale involved with expanding the grid.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 19, 2011
It's simply incorrect to claim that if you take a gasoline car offline, eliminate its CO2 emissions and replace that gasoline car with an EV you plug into a solar system -- let's make it simple and say the system is an off-grid solar carport system dedicated exclusively to charging your EV, that you are somehow adding to the total fossil fuel output of the grid.

That EV is running 100-percent on solar-generated electricity and is completely independent of the electric grid. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the total CO2 output of the grid. At the same time it has replaced a gasoline car, which is therefore no longer emitting CO2.

In short, that solar-charged EV is a 100-percent, CO2 free vehicle [OK, there is the solar payback period, but after that]. And, the individual who has traded a gasoline-powered car for the 100-percent solar-charged EV is no longer producing CO2 emissions while driving. Plain and simple.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 19, 2011
Glenn, the wind industry is not "dying." It suffered a slower growth year in 2010 than in 2009, but it still grew by 7,000 MW. If that's dying I guess living must be really good!

And literally no one (other than you) has to my knowledge suggested that curtailment has been the problem. Your facts are way off.

See the latest issue of North American Windpower for the key reasons why 2010 was a slower (but still good) year than 2009. It's primarily the lack of PPAs because natural gas prices plummeted and demand plummeted with the recession, so states have slowed down in issuing RFPs for new wind projects.

Curtailment also occurs because of transmission bottlenecks and you probably are aware that Texas is currently building out its transmission infrastructure after being caught by surprise by the tremendously rapid installation of 10 GW of wind in just ten years. They are in fact the single biggest reason why 2010 was slower than 2009 nationwide: the TX market for new wind basically disappeared in 2010.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 19, 2011
Rogerkb,

The example of 8 hours/day is considered to be a forecast, not a reflection of present-day reality... However, throughout 2009 (the most recent year that we have fully analyzed), more than 10% of the time in the Minnesota Hub (which covers all electricity transactions between power companies and co-ops throughout the entire state of Minnesota, as well as some of North Dakota and Iowa) saw prices drop below $10/MWh, in which case well over 90% of the exchanged energy was either nuclear or wind sourced. In 2009, the state of Texas saw the curtailment of 17% of all wind energy generated. There are several nodes throughout TX, ND, SD, MN, IA, and IL that saw more than 12 hours of continuous negative pricing for multiple days throughout the spring and fall.

This is the reason that the wind industry is dying... it's literally choking itself to death on excess nighttime energy in any region that it is significantly penetrated that doesn't have a lot of hydropower (the entire midwest, for example)...

So we don't see an average of 8 hours/day of excess energy now, but in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, the Dakotas, and Texas; it's not hard to imagine that within 6-7 years (which is the time it will take for us to become deployment-ready after Round A investment) there will be quite a few regions where that much off-peak energy will be available... The problem is that those places - the Oklahoma and Texas panhandles, the Dakotas, Minnesota, etc... are specifically poor matches for EV's... and the places that EV's make sense (LA, Atlanta, Miami, etc)... have no excess renewable capacity.

So there it is.
Roger Brown
Roger Brown
January 19, 2011
Glenn,
I cannot deny that if the price differential between electric vehicles and ICE vehicles does not narrow then only rising fuel prices could force the adoption of electric vehicles. However, fuel prices are rising, and I remain skeptical that wind fuels will be able to create a price ceiling on hydrocarbon fuel any time soon, nor am I confident that whatever price the process can ultimately attain will be sufficiently low to trump electrification of transportation.

On your website you given a wind fuels plant cost example in which 150MW worth of electrolyzers will run for 8 hours a day during off peak times. I do not see how such a scheme can end up using wind energy only. If you use only excess wind energy for which there is no other demand your electrolyzer capacity factor will be significantly less than 33%. It appears to me that your proposed scheme of operation will increase the demand for fossil generated electricty, and it will not be able to deal with all of the excess wind energy because your electrolyzer bank will not be sized properly.

As for your desire to solve the sustainability crisis without any push back from people who want to maintain their familar way of life, I suggest that you talk to the Roman generals, or to the European aristocracy, or to native Americans, and ask them about their luck in fufilling similar desires.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 19, 2011
Rogerkb,

I will acknowledge that a community car port with smart-charging capability that was located in the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, or Texas would indeed have no fossil input. However, now in addition to asking people to pay a $15,000- $20,000 premium for their car (which will never be recouped by fuel savings), you're asking for them to pay the capital expense for a community smart-charge car-port and shift to a communal living lifestyle.

Aside from offering true carbon neutrality, the major advantage of WindFuels is that it doesn't ask anyone to "sacrifice" for "the planet". Experience teaches us that the more people are asked to sacrifice, the harder they will push back and the less overall will be accomplished. The WindFuels plant would be able to convert ~55% of that energy to liquid fuels, which could be distributed and sold through the current infrastructure to existing vehicles. All people would be required to do is purchase the same gasoline they're purchasing now... no pushback, real progress.

Back to the smartcharging carport:
I seriously doubt that even 500,000 EV's will be on American roads by 2020. Of those, likely none will be sold in the Dakotas or Minnesota, and very few will be sold in Iowa, Illinois, or Texas. With so few vehicles available, the economics of building a smartcharging carport becomes completely rediculous - perhaps adding as much as $0.50/kWh to the cost of energy used to charge the cars. I don't see any community taking this project on.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 19, 2011
Tam,

I have no more "convinced myself" of the net effect of marginal demand than I have "convinced myself" that 2+2=4. It's simple math, and it is true.

I'm sorry if your own vested interests will not allow you to understand that, but there it is.
Michael Wurzel
Michael Wurzel
January 19, 2011
I understand that the main point of this article is about whether electric vehicles actually produce lower amounts of carbon emissions than conventional or hybrid vehicles, and whether their costs are justified, but as I have followed this article and its hundred plus comments, I am surprised that no one has considered mentioning a major selling point of EVs from a biker or pedestrian point of view.

The fact is that electric vehicles have no point source emissions coming out of their tailpipe. As a daily bike commuter, I honestly wonder sometimes if I am destroying my lungs, giving myself cancer or just offsetting my general health and well-being by inhaling so much carbon emissions from the tailpipes of vehicles around me. As a small representative of the biker community, I think EVs are great for quality of air within cities, especially those who are actually on the roads and sidewalks, like bikers, motorcyclists, and pedestrians.
Roger Brown
Roger Brown
January 19, 2011
Glenn,

Your argument for wind fuels over electric vehicles appears to be based on the greater ease of 'smart' use of excess grid power, presumably at the cost of lower capacity factor on your capital equipment. However, electric vehicles could also potentially use smart charging, and, if V2G is implemented, they could render additional load leveling services which chemical wind fuel could not. Admittedly smart charging and V2G for electric vehicles would be easier with community ownership rather than private ownership. If a neighborhood car park existed, energy could flow to and from the grid from a centralized location. A user could pick up a vehicle in a charge state appropriate to whatever task needed to be done and would not have to be concerned about the charge state or the life expectancy of his or her personally owned battery. Admittedly, American consumers are not yet prepared to give up the convenience of a car in the garage, but any real solution to the problem of sustainability will require a radical change in social values. No pure engineering solution is going to allow the infinite growth/competitive wealth accumulation model to make human economic activity compatible with the physical limits of the biosphere.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 19, 2011
And as for subsidies for EVs being unwise, ponder this: the current $7,500 subsidy will obviously not last. Remember when hybrid cars got fat subsidies up to $4,000? They're gone now. The point of a fat subsidy is to kick start the market to achieve economies of scale. Hybrid cars have clearly reached this point. And EVs will too in a few years. Check out the Community Environmental Council report I linked to in my article. I explain in that report in some detail the short, medium and long-term strategy for weaning our region from fossil fuels. It's also a model for the nation as a whole if the nation as a whole gets really serious about transitioning away from fossil fuels. The key points are to promote alternatives to driving, smaller cars, and hybrid cars in the short term, but to transition to electrification of transportation and everything else in the long-term.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 19, 2011
Glenn, we are indeed going in circles. You made your initial point many posts ago - I rebutted it with a number of responses. You switched to a punch bowl metaphor and made your point again - I rebutted it again by expanding on your metaphor. You are now making your original point again.

My last response to you is this: it is simply inaccurate to look only at the marginal response to increased EV demand for GHG calculations, even if you were right that increased night-time capacity comes only from fossil fuels (which you're not). Check out the Samaras and Meisterling paper I cite in my article. Carnegie Mellon are tops in their field for lifecycle analysis. So even though I criticized their assumption to use average national electricity sector emissions, I did not suggest their methodology was otherwise flawed. Rather, I suggested that using a single national average emissions figure is misleading because the market uptake of EVs will certainly not be a smooth average around the nation. Rather, it will (as with hybrids) certainly be a lumpy uptake with the West Coast and NE taking the lead, which have much cleaner grids than the national average.

It's not about "spare capacity" for renewables - it's about what power EVs actually draw from the grid and this will be whatever power mix is on the grid. I don't know how else to say it.

You've convinced yourself that what you're saying is the gospel truth. Step back and think again and ponder why no one in the LCA biz does LCA like you suggest it should be done.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 19, 2011
Rogerkb - I responded to a similar question from Sandeen in comment #109.

It boils down to real time load variation and siting. If we place a plant near a wind farm that has to be curtailed nightly and we have the capacity to adjust our demand load in real time based on grid needs, we can essentially eliminate wind curtailment, help stabilize the power grid, and be assured we're using 100% renewable energy.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 19, 2011
Bob -
I don't make that assumption. It doesn't matter what the actual amount of renewable energy on the grid is, what matters is spare capacity.

Let's take the ultra-simple grid that I outlined in my last attempt to explain this concept to Tam: We start with 1 MW hydro, 2 MW nuclear, 200 kW wind, and 20 kW solar.

Now let's assume that over the next 10 years solar expands to 300 kW and wind expands to 11 MW, and no nuclear power is decommissioned on that grid : If there is still the same amount of demand (10.22 MW), then the grid carbon intensity will now hover ~5 t-CO2/hr, or ~493 kg-CO2/MWh.

If a more reasonable estimate of 100 EV's plug into that grid, drawing an additional 200 kW's of power (far less than the growth of wind and solar in this very optimistic scenario), then there's still no spare capacity in wind or solar power, so the power company still has to ramp up one of its fossil generators in order to meet this new demand... which means that the now 10.42 MW of demand will be met with 6.02 MWs of fossil generation, for a total of 5.21 t-CO2/hr. So the grid would then be 500 kg-CO2/MWh, but the impact of adding the 200 kWs of demand onto that grid would have changed the grid emissions by ~176 kg-CO2, which works out to 865 kg-CO2/MWh.

Whatever your prediction for grid energy is, the math can only change if you assume there will be a massive build-out of UNUSED renewable energy. Otherwise, people like Christof who have solar systems will be taking exactly as much renewable energy off the grid (energy that would elsewise have contributed to the grid), to charge their EV... which means that much fossil energy must then be generated to compensate.
Roger Brown
Roger Brown
January 19, 2011
Glen,

You argue that electric vehicles represent a huge new demand on electricity which cannot be met by a corresponding growth in renewable energy generation. However, your wind fuels proposal also represents a huge new demand on electricity, and given the inefficiencies in electrolysis, hydrocarbon fuel synthesis, and reconversion of chemical potential energy to mechanical motion it seems possible the the electricty demand per passenger mile for wind fuels may be even higher than for electric vehcicles. So why is it that renewable generation will be able to meet the new demand of your process but not that of electric vehicles?
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
Tam,

I've switched subjects because you are being deliberately obtuse. It's quite clear that you're intelligent enough to comprehend this, so that isn't the problem... but whatever the problem is, you aren't willing to engage the issue, and I have no wish to endlessly repeat an argument that you won't engage.

I am perfectly aware of the fungible nature of the grid. I am also aware of macro input/output issues, which you are refusing to consider. Every electron produced by renewable sources is already being distributed (minus ~20 TWh's/year of curtailed wind across the wind corridor... which is such a small fraction of U.S. demand is isn't worthy of mention on nationwide issues).

So if, during any given hour, a local grid is consuming 1 MWhs of hydro power; 2 MWhs of nuclear energy; 200 kWhs of wind energy; and 20 kWhs of solar energy... as well as 7 MWhs of fossil energy... that grid essentially has a carbon emission of ~6 t-CO2/hr, or ~600 kg/MWh.

However, if 1000 people plug in their shiny new EV's to draw an additional 2 MWhs of power for an hour, then there's no more hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar generation potential to draw upon... so the local power plant has to power up its inefficient peaking plant to handle the load, increasing the net carbon emissions by 1.73 t-CO2. Now the local grid is emitting a total of ~7.73 t-CO2/hour, or 644 kg-CO2/MWh. The EV owners may try to pat themselves on the back for only using 644 kg-CO2/MWh in this scenario... but the truth of the matter is that when they plugged in their cars, the additional power to handle that load had a carbon intensity of 865 kg-CO2/MWh, and had they spent their money more wisely and bought a Prius, there would be 865 kg-CO2/MWh less emissions... so the net effect of their purchase is an increase in atmospheric concentration of CO2 of 865 kg/MWh.

I'm sorry if you cannot comprehend this, but your refusal to engage this fact doesn't make it any less true.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
Glenn, you've switched the subject and apparently ignored my demonstration of why your thinking is wrong on the GHG issue.

To be entirely clear: the flaw in your reasoning is considering all renewables on the current grid to be "taken" and thus not available to charge EVs, which you consider marginal demand additions. But all renewables are "taken" by all current demand on the grid. Electrons aren't picky - they're entirely fungible. Thus, any EV or other electrical appliance on the grid shares equally in all renewable or other carbon-free electricity on the grid.

If we can reach agreement on this issue I'm happy to shift attention to the wisest subsidy issue.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
Tam,

My problem with the EV distraction is that it isn't doing much to help with either problem, which I care far too much about to simply back whatever today's hype might be without thinking it through.

The Nissan Leaf has 10 ft3 less passenger room AND 10 ft3 less cargo room than a Prius, and is range restricted... yet it costs $8500 more... yet it saves only ~300 gallons of gas/year (before substitution is considered and accounted for).

The U.S. government is mindlessly offering people a $7500 bribe to buy the Leaf, in the hopes of reducing gasoline consumption. The most that the government could HOPE to accomplish is ~3600 gallons of gasoline demand abatement over 12 years, for a net cost (assuming 0 discount rate) of ~$2.11/gallon.

Most people consider the ethanol production subsidy (wherein the government spends $1/gge) to be a poor investment, yet this is more than TWICE that amount, and results in considerably more damage to the environment... but it is cheered because so many renewables advocates are technophyles first and savvy investors last.

We have a limited amount of money that we as a country either can or will invest in renewable energy. That money should be devoted to the best possible return on our investment. Whether you rate that return in "CO2 abatement per dollar invested" or "gasoline demand offset per dollar invested", electric cars simply don't measure up, nor do they come anywhere close, to more logical investments.

You are welcome to buy the thing if you wish... but you're contributing ~865 kg-CO2/MWh to the greenhouse effect (as opposed to ~14 kg-CO2/gallon gasoline - which is slightly worse). That's just the way the world works, and that makes your investment one with a much poorer return than others that you could have considered.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
PS. I checked your link and I'm glad to see that we're on the same page re the twin crises - good for you for spreading the word. Now let's see if we can move toward some agreement on the policy and technology solutions...
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
Glenn, stating that you know a lot about renewables and policy issues doesn't help when you demonstrate by your statements that you're misunderstanding key issues. Let's look at your punch party metaphor in more detail.

When I come to your punch party, I will, like any polite guest, BYOB to help out. So I add my handle of rum to your punch bowl. (This is me buying solar panels for my house). Net result: a large improvement in GHG emissions if I charge my EV with my solar panels.

Other guests might not be as polite as I am and they bring only a fifth of rum. They add this to the bowl. (This is like ratepayers collectively paying for more wholesale renewable energy projects). Net result: a less pronounced but still significant improvement in GHG emissions when these guests/EV owners charge their EVs from the grid.

Even the scenario you highlight, the booze-constrained party, still results in everyone getting some booze because booze in a punch bowl, like electrons on a grid, are fungible and quickly mix evenly. So any guest who drinks from your diluted punch will still get some alcohol. And any EV that charges from any grid that has any renewables on it will still get some renewable energy-produced electrons - and the attendant GHG and energy independence benefits resulting thereform.

Thankfully, all the guests who actually come to your party contribute some booze and everyone gets pleasantly buzzed and has great conversation.

I'm sure your next post will focus on how the punch bowl metaphor fails to capture dispatch rules for electricity and differences in night and daytime mixes. So perhaps you have a more apt metaphor we can debate?
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
Tam,

It doesn't matter how much alcohol you have "to party with", if your goal is to increase everyone's alcohol consumption, the only way that you can deal with more demand is if you have spare alcohol that is UNUSED. Unless you have curtailed wind or bypassed hydro, locked down geothermal, or blanketed solar; marginal increases in demand will have to be satisfied by non-renewable energy. I don't care if the grid is 70% renewable in 10 years (it won't be), that statement is absolutely constant.

Please THINK about this before replying...

P.S. I'm quite confident I'm as or more familiar with renewable and nuclear energy growth and penetration than anyone in the room.

Perhaps you should check my link.
www.WindFuels.com
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
Glenn, thank the Lord that there is plenty of additional alcohol for us to party with. Read my post again and think about what I write with respect to current grids and how they are changing. And please check out my link about the dramatic growth in renewable energy in the US in the last ten years.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
My last comment was ended abruptly due to excess characters.

To make it more clear: assuming 14 kg-CO2/gallon, if a person chose to buy a Nissan Leaf rather than a Toyota Prius, then the total emissions over an assumed 15-year lifetime would be somewhere between ~8-15 tons less emitted CO2 (also, as discussed ad nausium, assuming 865 kg-CO2/MWh). The range here represents differences in driving habits and different assumptions for substitution ("Well, the EV can't take us all the way to your parents' house, so we'll have to take the SUV"). Regardless of these assumptions, there is no way that the EV driver could recoup the additional $8500 investment.

But had that person instead chosen to buy a Prius, and spend the remaining $8500 investing in wind farms in good wind regions, he/she should expect to recover a healthy return, and would directly eliminate a lifetime total of more than 150 - 200 t-CO2.

Of course, that same person could donate money to a school insulation project that might reduce 500 t-CO2 over its lifetime.

Hence, it's better to spend your money investing in renewable energy and efficiency projects, then investing in a car that uses one type of fossil energy rather than another.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
Tam,

You do not seem to understand the effects of marginal changes in supply and demand, since you claim that an EV will draw "whatever grid mix of power is available". No.
The EV, being NEW demand, must be satisfied by spare/excess capacity. If your wind farms are currently not being curtailed, then that means that the energy being generated by those wind farms are currently 100% utilized... which means that if you marginally increase demand, that new demand must be satisfied by something other than the wind energy - which we agree in California is 100% utilized.

To illustrate this, I'd like you to remember some lessons from college (this goes back a ways for me):
Lets say a party is going on and there is ~30% alcohol/punch ratio in the punch bowl. There's no more alcohol to add to the punch bowl, but there's tons of punch and ginger ale... But right now everyone is pretty happy. Now let's imagine a couple of freeloaders crash the party without bringing any additional alcohol. The party host adds more punch and ginger ale to the bowl, but can add no additional alcohol because there is no more additional alcohol to add. Hence, in an analysis of the party's alcohol intake, the marginal increase in beverage consumption was fully compensated by punch and ginger ale - even though everyone was filling their cups from the same punch bowl. More marginal demand always filled by spare capacity. Period.

As for peak oil... I'm working to solve that. If our team doesn't succeed (highly unlikely, our process works and is truly cost effective), then peak oil will be solved with tar sands, oil shale, and coal-to-liquids... which I fear because of the damage to the environment that would entail.
However, even if one credited 100% of fuel consumption as having been derived from tar sands (~14 kg CO2/gallon), for most people the purchase of an EV will only reduce their total lifetime emissions by ~8-15 tons. Had they instead invested in wind farms, it'd be >150 tons
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
Last, as I write in the article above, GHG benefits are not the only benefit from EVS and, in my mind, probably aren't the primary benefit. I worry more about peak oil than climate change, so I view EVs as promising from an energy independence perspective regardless of any GHG benefits. I do still worry about climate change, to be sure, and I refer to these two threats as the pending "twin crises." But the peak oil discussion all too often gets lost in the debate b/c, it is my feeling, most people just can't handle more than one major pending global crisis at a time.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 18, 2011
Glenn,

The US grid is changing and will very likely change dramatically in the next ten years. Here's the latest list of state RPS policies:

http://www.dsireusa.org/documents/summarymaps/RPS_map.pptx

As I mentioned above, wind and solar have grown 30-40% each year in the US for the last ten years, approximately doubling every two years or so. This is Moore's Law in renewable energy. I calculate in this piece that the US gets to about 50% wind and solar by 2020 under current growth rates (let alone other renewables). But let's assume it's half that rate - we get there by 2030.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/01/exotics-and-the-march-of-technology

More generally, your arguments about marginal capacity additions are misguided. Your analysis assumes incorrectly that EVs will suck fossil fuel power. As many have already noted in comments, an increasing number of homeowners and businesses are installing solar panels specifically to charge EVs. And what is a tiny minority now may become widespread in coming decades. As well as renewable energy public charging stations (something I'm personally working on at a very early stage).

More importantly, if EVs are charged primarily at night, as they probably will be due to utility rate design incentives (something I'm also working on), they will be sucking power from the typical grid mix. In California and some other states, renewables are dispatched preferentially and curtailment has not been a problem in CA. So whatever grid mix of power is available during the evening will be the power mix used to charge a car. And this is about half carbon free in CA (with the other half coming primarily from natural gas and a bit of coal, which is being phased out).

The bottomline is that as wind and other night-time renewables grow in capacity, and also day-time renewables like solar (which will increasingly include storage for power shifting), EVs will increasingly be charged with renewable energy.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
@ Sandeen,
The difference is primarily one of targetting. Right now only ~2% of grid energy is produced by wind. Of that, only ~20% of wind is produced in states that have problems with excess capacity at night, and in those states only ~15-20% of the total wind energy is curtailed or problematic.

If you talk about a generic subsidy or incentive for electric cars, then the average nationwide effect will be less than 0.1% of your energy will actually be derived from curtailed off-peak energy. That's why I discounted it entirely for electric cars. However, if we put a 20 MW WindFuels plant in MN or IA, then 100% of the plant's power usage could easily come from excess wind energy due to the real-time adjustment capability of the electrolyzers... The presence of that plant would then stabilize the grid for another 60-80 MW of wind in that region - which is currently saturated.

That's the difference.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
@Bob,
Actually, Bob, I am certain that tomorrow's grid will be very similar to today - if you consider tomorrow to be 1/19/2011. I certainly hope you would likewise feel that to be true.

So it boils down to what you define as "tomorrow". Changing the grid will take time, a lot of time. The average nuclear power plant takes ~ a decade to build, the average super-wind farm takes 3 years to build, but is only 1/5 the power of the average nuclear power plant. Building a rooftop solar system can be done in a few days, but ~3,000,000 such systems would have to be built in order to generate the energy produced by one baseload coal plant. (As well as enough batteries to provide power for over 15,000,000 Priuses).

Changing the system takes TIME, and fantasizing that this is not the case doesn't make you any more dedicated to the environment than I... it just makes you a dreamer with unrealistic expectations.

As I mentioned, nuclear plants are being decommissioned far faster than they are being built, and that will continue to be the case for at least 2 decades. Within the next decade you'll see natural gas prices re-normalize as global trade helps to stabilize prices. There's no rush to replace 60+ -year duration power plants with new natural gas plants just because the price dropped for a year or so, though some areas are extending their capacity factor of their peaking plants while dialing back their baseload coal - the infrastructure isn't changing to accomodate the price-of-the-moment.

The tomorrow you envision is a very long way away. Making a decision concerning the car you buy today based on the future that is at least 30-50 years off... that's just not helpful.
Eric Sandeen
Eric Sandeen
January 18, 2011
@glen-doty - without detracting from the notion of making hydrocarbon fuels from wind at night, why is EV charging at night not just as GHG-free and capacity-soaking as your plan?

To be honest the most compelling argument I heard on this thread is the one by John Petersen that in a capital-constrained world, we need to make the best use of every dollar spent on reducing fossil fuel use. If EVs remain at such a premium it'll be hard to advocate for them over HEVs or PHEVs, but time will tell.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 18, 2011
@Christof - I don't see how removing the whole thing from the grid will change the numbers. The issue is whether your solar panels will provide power to the grid - reducing the amount of fossil generation needed - or whether those solar panels are used to power your car. Whether you're on or off the grid shouldn't impact that equation.

@Sandeen - Thanks for the interest. As for efficiency, that is probably the greatest error with the renewable advocacy at large is the obsession with higher efficiency. What matters is not efficiency, but price. For fossil generation, we need better efficiency because every ounce of fossil fuel burned has a price - both in terms of direct cost to the person consuming it and indirect cost in the damage caused by its pollution. But with renewables what should matter is market viability. Let me give you an example: if you personally had a choice between having a solar system installed on your rooftop that was 35% efficient but cost $7/W, or a system that was 5% efficient but cost $1/W, which would you choose(assuming equal longevity, capacity factor, maintenance, etc..)? Most people would choose the $1/W system, as would I.
The wind industry is suffering because they have periods of excess energy production that costs them tremendously - due to a lack of real time correction ability... this means that if you could use truly variable energy, you could help the wind industry and receive nearly free energy (sometimes getting PAID to take that energy). The cost of transporting liquid hydrocarbons is 2 orders of magnitude less than transporting hydrogen gas and nearly 3 orders of magnitude less than the amortized cost of transporting electrical energy. At 55+% electricity-to-fuels efficiency, we'll be extremely profitable and produce endless carbon neutral clean fuels. That's all that's needed.

I am not stating that Christof is doing nothing with solar (renewable electricity GOOD). I'm saying that his EV has very limited impact.
ian smith
ian smith
January 18, 2011
Whilst the debate has largely moved on from comparing marginal emissions to a whole life costing methodology, it has barely started to address behaviour change. With projections of marginal cost of 3.6c/mile (Leaf) versus 10.4 (Cobalt) when are we going to see the bounceback effect included in assessments? With this cost difference, these cars will not be driven the same amount.
Eric Sandeen
Eric Sandeen
January 17, 2011
@glen-doty (#98) - What you are doing sounds interesting, in terms of being able to re-use existing infrastructure. But I have to wonder about efficiency.

What Christof is planning to do is get an EV. From everything I have read, EVs are hands-down more efficient than an ICE per unit of energy. If you plan to make hydrocarbon fuels out of wind energy, what is the efficiency of that conversion process from turbine to wheels? I can certainly see the advantage in terms of the existing ICE infrastructure, but I don't think that negates the value of EVs.

That EV effiency, combined with the fact that electricity can be renewably produced, seems to make EVs a win for new around-town car purchases. The only thing that gives me pause is the battery component lifecycle.

Telling Christof that adding X kWh/month of clean energy to the grid, swearing off gasoline for 1 vehicle, and replacing that gasoline demand with new X kWh/month demand from an EV does nothing to reduce GHG seems like a pretty tortured argument to me.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 17, 2011
First, a general observation: If you measure by number of comments (this article is far and away No. 1 on REW in terms of comments right now), it's clear that EVs are a hot button issue on REW, and perhaps they, along with the EV + Renewable energy link, ought to get more attention.

Second, Glenn, curious about how you see the equation if we take the whole thing and put it off grid: We pour the solar electricity generated into a home battery storage system and and that storage system powers all of our home electric use, including our future EV.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 17, 2011
@ChristofHeinrich,

The belittling commentary did not come out until my reply to Bob. I apologize for that. In truth, I don't actually feel that EV's are dumb, anymore than luxury cars are dumb. If people make an informed choice in which case they knowingly purchase something that is not - of its own merit - competitive with other technology but they choose to pay a premium for it out of preference for style, statement, or whatever... that's fine.

I DO feel that subsidizing EV's is horribly stupid, short-sighted, and without justification... period.

Concerning your solar charging station, of COURSE it is doing a good thing, it is producing carbon neutral electricity! That's clearly a benefit, though it's just as clearly a very costly benefit. My point was this: you have a ~5.6 kW solar system. I don't know how much you payed for it, I'm sure the net energy price will be quite high, but that solar-sourced electricity could be sold to the local grid and reduce the amount of fossil-sourced electricity that is produced.

I think we can agree on this.

By buying an EV, every kWh that you use to power your car can no longer be sold back to the local grid, which means that the local power companies must then kick in their fossil generators to produce those extra kWhs. So the energy that you use to power your EV will result in an equal amount of energy being produced from fossil-sourced generation.

That's just math, and it's unavoidable unless there's spare nuclear or renewable energy capacity.

Period.

So if you're comparing the amount of net CO2 release between an EV and a ICE, you have to only figure in the carbon intensity of the fossil-sourced electricity, as the electricity required to satisfy new demand will always result in a marginal increase in power production that can only be provided from spare capacity - and almost all spare capacity in the world is fossil-sourced.

It's not circular, it's just logic.
BUCK SHAW
BUCK SHAW
January 17, 2011
You both make good sound points. But in my world it was the PC not the MAC (with all its great features) that won. Let the Market decide. Hands down it will be price and not CO2 that will decide what Car wins....
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 17, 2011
I apologize for the ad hominem. However, I will say that your posts are very inflammatory -- calling EVs "dumb" isn't exactly high-end argumentation, and it seems to me that it's designed to accomplish exactly the same thing as ad hominem -- raise the blood-pressure of people on the other side of an issue.

I resent such commentary as I have myself invested 1,000s of hours of my own time, unpaid, into building a web site -- SolarChargedDriving.Com -- devoted to something you flippantly dismiss as "dumb".

As for your last paragraph, I reject the argument that you're making. It's simply wrong. We will be taking an ICE completely off line, while plugging it directly into solar -- and we will be avoiding night-charging as much as possible (at least 80 percent of the time) precisely because of critiques such as yours. Hence no more CO2, NO, SO2, etc., no more oil traveling thousands of miles, being refined using coal-generated electricity to power a car. Just electrons flowing directly from our system into our car.

We will not be increasing coal load as a result. Our system will cover our EV use and our home electric use. In fact, we've already generated 2,700 kWh more than we've used and we've banked them for future use for our EV (while running our neighbors' appliances in the meantime).

It is simply untrue that our tailpipe will have the same effect as someone who does not have solar. By your logic, all solar-charged EV stations, all home-solar systems being used to charge an EV are bogus, not "worthy", and do absolutely nothing to change things. Furthermore, by extension, solar itself is bogus, apparently because it sometimes directly fires electric gadgets and sometimes generates offset electricity.
--Christof Demont-Heinrich
Editor & Founder
SolarChargedDriving.Com
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 17, 2011
@ChristofHeirich,
First, there are many cases in which doing nothing is preferred to doing something wrong. Taking careful stock of where you are and what an action will accomplish before doing it is a matter of wisdom... something you should learn.

As for "do nothingness", for the past four years I've worked 40-60 hours/week with a team to develop a novel process which uses load variable off-peak energy (zero carbon energy is available in the midwest between 2 and 6 hours/night, but it is not available on a regular pattern, and loads can fluctuate wildly) to recycle carbon dioxide into hydrocarbon chains. That means that we WON'T run out, and the fuels can actually be carbon neutral, and will work seemlessly with our current infrastructure, and will stabilize the grid for further growth of wind energy.

So I've actually WORKED over 10,000 hours towards a REAL solution, rather than just cheerleading whatever happens to be the hype-of-the-moment, like using coal to power uber-expensive compact cars.

If you'd like to look into an actual market-based solution, rather than this decades' "hydrogen economy", go to www.WindFuels.com.

Regardless, try to respond to criticism of a bad idea with something other than ad hominum.

As for the Northwest, are you telling me that the electric companies are actually letting the river water bypass the turbines? If not (and indeed this is not the case), then my criticism of EV's is perfectly valid for the Northwest.

As for you plugging your EV into your home solar system, that STILL results in an increase in coal generated power equal to your demand, as that solar energy could have been sold to offset coal power production, but instead is being consumed by your car... hence even in your situation the reduction in petroleum consumption is directly countered by an increase in coal power. Your tailpipe is more convoluted, but your EV has the same effect on CO2 concentrations as every other EV driver's does.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 16, 2011
@glenn-doty: Your numbers on EVs and the grid are just plain wrong for the American Northwest, where most of the grid is powered by hydro -- http://www.getenergyactive.org/fuel/state.htm -- and for other states as well.

And then there's your apparent do-nothingism. What are your proposed solutions to the end of fossil fuels, coming very soon (especially oil's end). I see nothing productive being put forward by you, and other naysayers in this comment thread.

Some of us are actually taking positive action -- us for instance. We'll be plugging an EV into our home solar system, and we'll be living out our practice in direct defiance of the do-nothingism, naysaying and outright negativity that several folks in this comment thread are oozing all over the place.

And, no, we won't be alone -- http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2151
Billy Ivy
Billy Ivy
January 16, 2011
Utilizing anaerobic digester (biogas) technology we can reduce natural and man-made GHG while generating transmission and/or distributive power for these electric cars.

The anaerobic digester also reduces need for landfills (increasing property values), generates renewable energy credits, and good ROI.

Biogas storage to create electricity at peak load is not a problem and generators can be power-band set up to capture premium peak energy rates. The rest of the time biogas can be piped straight to facilities to provide on-site electricity and heat.
(BMW is using similar but less effective LFG in SC to provide 25% of the plants energy needs for the next 20 years)

Anaerobic Digesters not wind and solar, should be priority of local, state, and federal governments as well as the Utility companies and Wall Street.

So bring on the Electric Car, and the CNG vehicles as well.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 16, 2011
Bob, I am overlooking nothing.
I was one of the leading voices expressing concern over grid instability and the spectre of excess nighttime energy in high wind regions threatening the wind industry... and I was right, the wind industry in America is dying a rapid death due to an inability to deal with that. Papers that I have written or co-written are widely referenced on this issue. I know of what I speak.

However, wind remains at just over 2% of the grid energy in America, and it's growth is rapidly diminishing. Solar isn't even a tenth of wind... If solar energy expanded 50%/year for the next decade (which it won't and is utterly laughable), it still wouldn't comprise 10% of the grid energy in America by 2020. Right now, nuclear energy comprises nearly 20% of the grid energy in America, and it looks like the rate of decomissioning old nukes will outpace the build rate of new nukes by at least 2-1 (I predict closer to 3-1) over the next decade.

The curtailment of wind is an issue that we are trying to innovate technology to utilize - www.WindFuels.com - but there was less than 20 GWhs of wind energy curtailed in 2010, while the grid at large saw the consumption of over 200 times that amount. Which means that if you are charging a new (dumb) electric vehicle then you are using less than 0.5% non-fossil energy. Congrats.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
January 14, 2011
Tam, the current carbon intensity of electricity in America is IRRELEVANT. You are discussing the introduction of new demand, which must be made up through spare capacity. There are only 5 states that have any spare renewable capacity at all, and those states show a VERY small percentage of their total electric usage as spare renewable capacity.

In other words, you don't have dams being bypassed - which could suddenly produce more power in a pinch if more power were demanded... Likewise, you don't have nuclear power plants which can ramp up their productions, nor solar panels which are covered on sunny days because they produce too much power, nor geothermal plants which are locked down to keep them from producing more power.

If you introduce NEW demand to the system, and your renewable capacity is 100% utilized, then all the new electricity must be satisfied by fossil energy. This is true regardless of how much renewable energy is brought onstream in the next two decades... no matter what the total renewable energy produced ends up being, nearly 100% of the energy required for NEW, OPTIONAL electricity demand will be satisfied by fossil energy. The only time that this will not be the case is if the demand is variable and the demand load is adjusted in real time to fit the needs of the local ISO in regions of high wind and nuclear power penetration.

So instead of fantasizing about a clean grid, you should analyze the electric car vs HEV using the current carbon intensity of fossil generated power in America: ~865 t-CO2/GWh.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 14, 2011
The "debt service" for 10 years is $3 million a year. O+M must be another $500,000/Yr. That leaves very little for a return on equity that you claim is 20% of the capital costs or $8 million. A 12% annual return is +$960,000. There isn't enough money to accomplish that. I guess you're not repaying their equity?



The solar development you envision may not even perform for 10 years. It's a great way to lose money.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 14, 2011
Andrew, against my better judgment I'm going to give you one last response b/c I genuinely would like you to take something positive from this exchange. ROI is based on equity investment. In the model I showed you, the equity investment is equal to about 20% of the total capital cost due to federal cash grant (or ITC) and 50% debt service. So equity after tax ROI is about 12% even though total income is "only" $4.2 million per year. Accelerated depreciation also plays a role. Got it?
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 14, 2011
@Tam_Hunt: As a developer of solar power you can actually make this statement:

"A stable 10% return on anything is incredibly good."

The 10% isn't a "return" and you should know that. The 10% ($4.2 million a year) are the gross revenues. You still have to pay for the $40 million investment and you have Operating and Maintenance costs. Plus, nobody really believes that these solar installations will last 20 years.

You speak the virtues of "solar power" yet you don't understand finance. You also suggest investors are flocking to solar deals to make an 8-12% ROI. Those investors must not be very bright or they think you are telling the truth.

Do you currently have any offerings on the street? I'd love to see what's in their. Maybe do some math.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 13, 2011
Bob, there are a lot of exciting developments in solar PV production technology but keep in mind that panel production costs are now a small portion of the overall cost. So whereas we can buy panels now (thin film or multicrystalline) for about $1.50/watt for large projects, total project cost is still around $4/watt. So even though production costs for thin film and multicrystalline are now well below a $1/watt, the sale price and the total project cost add a lot on top. Give it time, however, and I think we'll get to $2/watt total project cost (5-10 years).
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 13, 2011
Andrew, I give up. I've demonstrated repeatedly how the model works but if you're not amenable to reason there's no point. A stable 10% return on anything is incredibly good. If you are actually interested in learning more, check out the many high quality public reports published by Lawrence Berkeley Labs explaining the economics and other aspects of solar and wind projects: http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/ems/re-pubs.html
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 13, 2011
@RENovak-Arze-19631019: Well said. Tam is a solar advocate and his assertions need to be challenged. Solar is not yet affordable and it may never be. The quoted ROI numbers are incredibly misleading and by his own admission the revenues generated are only 10% of the capital cost.

Even with subsidies, solar deals aren't profitable. Maybe at $2/watt they will begin to make sense.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
January 13, 2011
Another way to look at this. Hybrid cars have little potential to improve. Electric cars will get better/cheaper batteries but most importantly, the source of electricity has tremendous potential for improvement creating a multiplier effect.
R E NOVAK-ARZE
R E NOVAK-ARZE
January 13, 2011
Tam, your arguements, as well as those of the John Peterson, are biased. Bakersfield is one of the sunniest locations in the country. Existing "dirty" power plants are in operation, and will be in operation until it is no longer financially viable to run them. Solar and wind are making headway, but they could both stop dead if subsidies are cut. Utility infrastructures are not yet ready to handle the fluctuations inherent in these power sources. The infrastructure is not yet in place to transport this power to the grid, and may be a ways out do to ecological sensitivities.
If you wish for this to be a source for trusted information, the warts must be exposed and discussed. Fifty years ago, nuclear power was going to save us all. We are just now getting a handle on what the long term effects and repercussions are. Solar and wind are going to need to be looked at with a critical eye in order to be able to provide a realistic path to a cleaner environment.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 13, 2011
Andrew, seriously one last time: look at my post 68. I explain the revenue model for solar projects. $40 million in capital costs results in about $4.2 million revenue each year, with payback of 7.2 years. After-tax return on equity is about 12%. I include O&M and debt service in my model.

If we convert to your $4 capital costs, it's about 42 cents revenue per year and still payback of 7.2 years.

Why on earth do you think investors are lining up to invest in solar? There's are many tens of gigawatts of solar in the interconnection queue in California and surrounding states because solar is a good deal for investors, returning between 8 and 12% after-tax return on investment. This is an extremely secure investment akin to bonds because once a facility is paid for the annual production doesn't vary that much and there aren't many moving parts to go bad.
ANONYMOUS
January 13, 2011
Fact: a bicycle or public transportation will produce less greenhouse gases than personal HEVs, EVs or fossil fuel vehicles. But I cannot bike 35 miles to work in Michigan winters, and the infrastructure does not yet exist for EVs. I have not found an HEV that fits my budget, my safety requirements, and my cargo capacity requriements.
Fact: the TOTAL carbon footprint of any mode of transportation is dependant upon the fuel, source of the fuel, manufacturing process, transportation to the market of the vehicle and the fuel, disposal of the product and/or components at the end of the life cycle, and economic realities. EVs have not been around long enough to provide disposal impact data.
Fact: What works in LA or NYC may not in Iron Mountain, MI or Colstrip, Montana. Folks away from urban hubs generally see very little reason to pay extra taxes to subsidize the clean up of urban air quality.
Fact: Any statistic, as indicated by the "interpretation" of ONE chart and vitriol of these articles and the responses to them, can be utilized to prove a biased opinion ~ either for or against.
Fact: The carbon footprint of EVs IS dependent upon the source of the fuel used to generate the electricity. Hordes of EVs in California may improve smog quality while causing severe acid rain issues in the midwest.
Personally, in Mid-Michigan, I look for what will work for me and my family now. I walk to the store when weather is decent, I turn off lights, I am looking at a cogen furnace and I recycle. I am not looking at HEVs or EVs due to economics and the belief that the technology is still evolving and that there will be some serious issues that will need to be worked out (especially on the disposal side)before it is viable and widespread.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 13, 2011
@Tam_hunt: In stead of answering a simple question you want to confuse the issue? You must be a Solar-Cheerleader.

For every $4 dollars that someone invests in Solar they are lucky to generate less than 10% in revenues or about $.40 annually.

You won't acknowledge it, but I will, that is only 10% of capital costs. How do you pay for maintenance costs and service the debt for just 10% ROI? Isn't this why wind and solar farms are failing?

Answer that.

It's easy to be a pimp for something, it's much harder to make sense of the transaction. Please make SENSE of solar investments with some honesty. They are NOT good investments and your continued cheerleading defers our pursuit of a real solution.

We NEED clean, affordable electricity and, so far, solar isn't.
ANONYMOUS
January 13, 2011
Tam writes in comment 74:
"Also, solar thermal is more readily dispatchable than solar (which, as battery costs come down will also be dispatchable) because of relatively cheap molten salt thermal storage."

"More readily dispatchable" than something that is intermittent is a very weak claim, so it is technically true. However, solar thermal uses a traditional steam turbine to generate electricity so it has a sluggish response rate--well below resources typically used for dispatchable power such as hydro or simple cycle natural gas. It would be fair to say that the storage capacity makes solar thermal dependable power--which is a significant virtue--and it is true that the storage will be used to shift production toward the demand peak, but typically production is going to be fairly constant as opposed to dispatchable power that cycles on and off rapidly.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
January 12, 2011
Recent increases in US natural gas production and large increases in natural gas reserves have come from gas shales, not oil shales.
Jim Stack
Jim Stack
January 12, 2011
A few facts-
Nuclear in the USA is run on 95% imported uranium, hasn't taken care of the waste. It uses valuable water .

The US GRID has excess energy off peak, you can't ramp down a COAL plant, Nuclear or even hydro. Most EVs will charge at night.

A Solar GRID tried system like I have helps the GRID during the day and again at night since I use the excess GRID energy instead of wasting it.

With V2G Vehicle to GRID EVs can help the GRID by storing and dispaching energy as needed.

EVs will come down in cost as fossil fuels run out and cost more. Lets work with this amazing new choice we have.
J Shaw
J Shaw
January 12, 2011
Purchasing a vehicle is about the least sensible decision people make. If $45K was the top end of what anyone would pay, a dozen brands would cease to exist. Clearly there are better ways to spend your money to reduce carbon emissions, but I reckon there is a pretty large appetite out there for Volts & Leafs. The Prius has demonstrated the size of that market.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
January 12, 2011
When the Prius first showed up, analysts said, "They're losing money on every car they make."

Peterson's claim "I view the $33,000 list price as a loss leader" sounds eerily familiar.

Time will tell. All new ideas meet resistance. There are a lot of $33K cars on the road. People are paying for stature when they pick a car, not pay back period.

http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2010/12/epas-outrageous-lie-yawn.html
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Steven, you're right that it's not entirely apples to apples to compare solar PV to simple cycle natural gas peaker plants. But it's close. The real proof in the pudding is that peak power can be sold to CA utilities for three times the base price, which is what makes solar profitable in CA. And this is not a subsidy: it's market driven, based on what it costs to provide peak power to customers regardless of the technology. Peak rates are provided from noon to six during summer and fall so it's not difficult to use the time of delivery charts to figure out the boost you can expect for solar or other renewable energy types when you're selling to CA utilities. For solar, it's usually a net 25-30% time of delivery boost on an year round basis, so if the base price is 15 c/kWh the seller can expect 19-20 c/kWh total.

Also, solar thermal is more readily dispatchable than solar (which, as battery costs come down will also be dispatchable) because of relatively cheap molten salt thermal storage. Some companies are planning solar thermal plants with many hours of storage that are more profitable than no storage b/c they can shift delivery of power to peak. This is good for developers and ratepayers b/c these plants become 99% reliable peak power plants. This is not just theoretical: Abengoa has built a number of 10-20 MW plants like this in Spain and has contracts to build similar plants here in the US.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, see comment 68 for a detailed discussion of income.
ANONYMOUS
January 12, 2011
Tam writes in comment #70:
"As I wrote in my previous article, solar power at 20-30 c/kWh is a great deal for ratepayers because the alternative (natural gas peaker plants) cost about 50 c/kWh under normal natural gas rates. "

It mght, in certain locations such as CA, be fair to compare solar to combined cycle natural gas plants (which EIA claims have a levelized cost of $79/MWh--the lowest of any technology they list) because combined cycle plants are used to provide extra power during high demand times and have relatively high fuel costs. However, true "peaker" natural gas plants are significantly more expensive than combined cycle natural gas because the rapid response times needed are typically achieved with the lower-efficiency simple cycle scheme. Solar may very well provide power at times of peak demand, but it certainly does NOT provide dispatchable power on a rapid time scale, which is why the peaker plants command loftly prices--solar is intermittent and may even increase the need for more rapid- response generation. Thus Tam's comparison of solar to "50 cent/kWh" peaker plants is a stretch.
Steven
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@ Tam_Hunter: Please tell me the income per $4 watt of capital costs. That is more important than your belief that DOE research is not current.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, one last time: the "official" reports don't capture the dramatic price reductions for solar that have occurred over the last two years b/c such analyses always the lag the real world. Look at the cost curve for solar over the last 20 years and extrapolate. $6/watt refers to smaller home-sized systems. Economies of scale apply.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
IER is also saying $.25-$0 for Solar power levelized costs:

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/05/12/levelized-cost-of-new-generating-technologies/#_ftn3_2395

And $4-$6/watt capital costs:

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2010/11/23/eia-releases-new-generating-plant-capital-cost-data/
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, let's make it concrete: a 10 MW DC ground-mounted solar PV system with a single-axis tracker.

This will cost about $40 million total. It will produce about 21,000 MWh per year at 24% net capacity factor (let's say it's near Bakersfield, CA).

At 20 c/kWh this returns revenue of $4.2 million per year. The project pays for itself in 7.1 years (simple payback), assuming that half the capital cost is borrowed at 8% interest.

Bottomline: about 12% after-tax return on equity for the owner of the solar system and a good deal for ratepayers at 20 c/kWh for fairly reliable peak power.

For a more complete analysis, we'd need to consider the societal costs of the 30% federal ITC or cash grant (which is included in my analysis) and accelerated depreciation. And transmission costs. But many of these factors apply to other power sources anyway.

And over time, as solar costs come down even further, this deal just gets better and better.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
At $4 watt it will only generate $.30 a YEAR in income. A natural gas power plant is about $1/watt and generates $.30 to $.50 a YEAR in income.

As a developer i'm sure you can do the math. Instead of trying to make your failed argument that solar is worth as much as "peaking ng plants," tell me how much income you get for your $4/watt in capital costs. I think the income is less than 10% of the capital costs. What do you tell your clients?
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, you don't apparently understand solar economics. I said it's $4/watt, not kWh. Watt is capital cost. kWh is electricity production. So $4/watt leads to about 20 c/kWh cost of solar electricity over the life of the project (referred to as the "levelized cost"). As I wrote in my previous article, solar power at 20-30 c/kWh is a great deal for ratepayers because the alternative (natural gas peaker plants) cost about 50 c/kWh under normal natural gas rates. Currently, they're a bit cheaper b/c natural gas is so cheap, but we can expect natural gas prices to return to more normal levels as the global economy recovers.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
You have stated that Solar (utility scale) can be built for $4/kWh. That $4 investment will yield only $.17/year at $.10/kWh. Even at peaking rates it would only yield $.30/year.

Spending $4 to get $.10-$.30 (without subsidies) is just a very bad investment.

If you look closer at Wind and Solar development schemes you will find the only one to make any money are the developers. Wind farms are beginning to fail and solar will, too. Unless and until solar is about $1/watt it is primarily a waste of resources. It's certainly not an alternative or a breakthrough.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, I just mentioned to you that solar costs are already today as low or lower than the DOE report you cite projects for 2016. I know this b/c I'm in the development business (1-20 MW solar). Yes, it's subsidized, but let's check back in on this conversation 5 years from now and see who's visions of the future are more accurate. Solar is here now and will steadily grow to become a major part of our energy mix - along with wind, geothermal, biomass and other renewables. Natural gas will stick around as a baseload and load-following balance for renewables and coal and nuclear will slowly phase out by 2030.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@Tam_Hunt: We are seeing the growth in Solar because we're throwing a lot of money at it - subsidies, grants, loan guarantees, etc. NOT because it is a viable alternative.

NG Peakers price (US average) at an amount less than double base load prices. Base-load is less than $.10 kWh and NG peak rates are $.15-$.18 kWh. Solar, based on the latest published data is that even in 2016 Solar prices will be $.25 to $.39 kWh - with subsidies.

Solar is not an affordable alternative, it is an expensive supplement. maybe it makes people feel good, but it isn't "clean, affordable electricity." By most accounts that is 20-30 years away. We need a breakthrough NOW. Suggesting Solar will solve our energy challenges discourages our need to find a real solution.

If you have any data that confirms your suggestion that solar can solve our energy problem please post it.

DOE posted: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/pdf/2016levelized_costs_aeo2010.pdf
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
PS. See my earlier comments in this thread about the 50% growth rate of solar in 2010 in the US. If solar has not arrived yet, how on earth could we be seeing these kinds of growth rates? RPS requirements are getting more and more ambitious as each state increases their goals - not less. And as solar power costs continue to come down, we'll probably see this trend exacerbated. Doubling every two years is what I call Moore's Law in renewable energy. So even though solar is still less than one percent of electricity in the US now, if it continues to double every two years (which requires only a 35% annual growth rate) over the next two decades we get to 1,000 times the 2010 installed solar capacity by 2030. That's real growth.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, there has been a sea change in the last couple of years in the cost of solar power. It's now commonly below $4/watt for larger installations in the US. The official agency reports don't reflect these changes yet b/c they take a year or two to complete their reports.

You're missing the point about solar power as a peak resource. It's not accurate to compare it to baseload power sources, which are much cheaper on a c/kWh basis. It's important to compare it comparable types of electricity: peak resources like natural gas peaker plants. Electricity has a time value. When it's produced on peak it's much more valuable b/c this electricity costs a lot more to produce. This is why in CA, renewable energy producers are paid up to 3 times (literally) the baseline price for power for power produced on peak.

Believe me, solar power has arrived and we're going to see if blow up in the next ten years around the world.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@Tam_Hunt:

Even the Int'l energy Agency suggests that Solar costs must be reduced by two-thirds to become competitive (from $.30 kWh to $.10 kWh).

I read your previous article and i understand the idea of 'true cost" for electricity. My point is we won't replace coal-generated electricity by making coal more expensive, but rather by making clean electricity more affordable. I don't see solar accomplishing (in the next 10-20 years) that without some real breakthroughs.

Our collective goal should be clean, affordable electricity. That would make sense of EVs and it would enable the energy marketplace to retire coal. We have a better chance of winning economically than we do politically - but, we need that elusive breakthrough.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Here's the link to my previous article:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/12/the-true-cost-of-renewable-energy
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 12, 2011
Andrew, see my previous article on what renewables actually cost today and what they will likely cost in the future. Solar power even at 25-39 c/kWh is actually cheaper than the alternative natural gas peaker power today. But it's not that expensive even today. I don't have access to DOE's spreadsheets, but if we take their capital costs and their O&M cost estimates, we get a cost of just 20 c/kWh, which includes a 12% profit for the developer (based on my own analysis using RETScreen). And solar power cost is likely to drop substantially further in the next few years, based on ramped up production and economies of scale.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
DOE 2016 Projected costs of electricity generation:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/pdf/2016levelized_costs_aeo2010.pdf
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@fireofenergy-150745: DOE claims (and many others concur) that Solar will still be $.25-$.39 per kWh in 2016 and that is NOT "affordable." It needs to be $.10 or less per kWh. THAT is the missing "breakthrough."
ANONYMOUS
January 12, 2011
nhr1 writes: "PS lost on the arguement that nukes are carbon free when carbon based fuels are used to extract/transport/process not to say decommission them."

This is a pretty weak argument. By the same token Solar PV and wind turbines would not be purely renewable because they are manufactured in part by electricity generated by coal. There is no requirement that any of these technologies use fossil fuels in their generation and all produce a net surplus of energy so these sort of strained accounting arguments are flawed and unproductive. The key factor is whether or not use of a technology will reduce carbon intensity.
Steven
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@Bob_Wallace:

Wind and solar schemes are not "affordable." Until they have a true cost of less than $.10 per kWh and they are fully dispatchable, they are still too expensive. That's the missing "breakthrough."
Neil Hollow
Neil Hollow
January 12, 2011
PS lost on the arguement that nukes are carbon free when carbon based fuels are used to extract/transport/process not to say decommission them.
Neil Hollow
Neil Hollow
January 12, 2011
PS lost on the arguement that nukes are carbon free when carbon based fuels are used to extract/transport/process not to say decommission them
Neil Hollow
Neil Hollow
January 12, 2011
Until recently I would have been in the anticamp, but Nissan have released enough data to suggest the figures do add up. As I posted to the previous article against electric cars the carbon savings add up against my car in the UK using grid electricity. For what it is worth the UK government has decided that to meet our legally binding carbon reductions essentially the whole UK economy has to be electrified, this includes all transport (not aircraft obviously) and heating. Hence a very large renewables program and a renewable heat incentive.

The main sources of emissions in the UK and I expect in most developed countries are not from electricity but transport, heating and large industrial users of energy. Thus from a carbon emission point of view electric cars make sense. From a peak oil point of view they also make sense, biofuels are ideal but for the land area and hydrogen is less efficient (losses in making/transport/use) and will vast amounts of electricity to make it. A report for the UK from the University of Warwick suggested 110 (1GWp) nuclear power stations or 110,000 1MWp wind turbines to provide all hydrogen for UK transport. To power all electric cars in UK

As for argument that the technology is not good enough for EV's at present. Yes it would be nice if it was better cheaper etc but you can argue that about any technology in history (the most obvious being computers). We have to make a start at changing and whilst I don't think there is a total techno fix for peak oil/climate change this does look manageable.

26208000 cars in uk x 10000 miles a year /100 range per charge 24kwh (leaf)

thus (26208000*10000/100)*24=62899200000 Kwh/year

divide by 1000 (Mwh/year)
again GWp/year
again gives 63Twh/year large but not unmanagable extra demand

putting it in kwh/per person/year (65 million uk population) gives 2.65 currently the figure is 40KWh (petrol/diesel) per person per year expressed as kwh.
Michael Keller
Michael Keller
January 12, 2011
At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think the whole premise of using greenhouse gas reductions as the basis for deploying electric vehicles is pretty weak. The impact globally is essentially inconsequential.

However, I do think that EV's (and the hybrids as well) can materially help in reducing our dependence on oil in general and, in particular, reducing imports of oil from unstable regions of the globe. Any reductions in greenhouse gas are more of a happy secondary benefit.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
@ChristofHeinrich: Nobody said "100% renewable." I said our focus should be on "clean, affordable electricity" and not EVs. Comparing those two things is actually silly.

We NEED a breakthrough. We NEED clean, affordable electricity and we haven't found it yet. You can produce EVs but that isn't going to lead to a breakthrough. EVs will follow the clean energy breakthrough that is still MIA.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 12, 2011
@rolf-westgard-67277 -- Wow, the negativity and the intransigence positively exude from you. It's clear you will oppose fundamental, and fundamentally necessary change, at every step -- and folks like me will be there every time, pushing, pushing forward.

I live in Colorado, have banked an extra 2,800 kWh (= more than 10,000 miles of driving) with my utility with a 5.59 kW system that's only been up 6 months and cost me, out of pocket $8,000, yes, that's right, $8,000.

I guess you reject solar offset for everything, whether it's a central, AC unit or a car. And, in part because of questionable arguments like yours, yes, I will be plugging in our EV as often as possible while our solar system is producing. Don't have space to write more about this here, but I write about it extensively here:
http://solarchargeddriving.com/editors-blog/on-sun-a-fossil-fuels/551-defining-solar-ev-miles-could-be-controversial.html

BTW, are you doing anything yourself on the renewable energy front, or are you too cynical to take any positive action?

@Andrew_W: EVs aren't going to wait. It makes no sense to think we're going to be able to change the electric grid before plug-ins become widespread. It makes much more sense to say, OK, what I can I do to ensure that EVs will be, as much as possible, be powered by a grid that consists more and more of renewable energy. We need to harness EVs as a positive force to grow renewables rather than say, 'Wait, you gotta go 100 percent renewable BEFORE the EVs'. Absolutely no one will listen, and RE advocates will miss a great opportunity to harness EV growth as a powerful reason grow RE.
Jeff Brothers
Jeff Brothers
January 12, 2011
Tam,
You clearly waded into the fray willingly and with the right motives and logic. Glad you're up to the task. In 10 years we'll look back at this moment and laugh at the arguments of the naysayers...but it won't happen overnight. It wasn't that long ago when we all looked at a fax machine and wondered what we would ever need that for. It became one of the primary tools I used in my business in short order. Now, it's the internet/smartphones/PCs. Things change fast.
People will adopt EVs en masse when the cost is right, and with talk of $5.00/gallon gas this summer (at least in California), it might be sooner than later.
For me, I cannot stand the fact that we import oil for our transportation needs, and hope we can convert as quickly as possible. I'd prefer to keep what oil we have left domestically for higher and better uses (fertilizer, plastics, etc).
Jeffebros
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 12, 2011
EVs won't make sense until we figure out how to produce clean, affordable electricity. Until we do that we're just wasting money grandstanding. The focus should be on electricity, not EVs. Make an abundance of clean <$.10 kWh electricity and EVs begin to make a lot of sense.
ANONYMOUS
January 12, 2011
Using the EPA's recommendations for the entire USA, the average CO2 emissions to generate a kilowatt of electricity for calculating, say the Chevy Volt's carbon footprint, 1.3 lb/kWh. So, to move one mile, the Volt will emit 0.494 lbs of CO2/mile. The Prius will emit 0.4 lbs of CO2/mile when powered by gasoline. So, the Volt has more CO2 emissions and is less energy efficient than the Prius.

The Electric Smart is a reasonable alternative for reducing CO2 emissions. It needs 0.2 kWh of electricity from the grid to travel one mile. Equipped with a gasoline engine and traveling in the city will yield ~40 mpg. The CO2/mile traveled under these (ideal) conditions will be ~0.5 lbs of CO2/mile for the gasoline version and ~0.26 lbs of CO2/ mile using the EPA's average emissions for electric power generated in the USA. Problem is one of cost, and will society be willing to afford to double the cost of a car to halve the CO2 emissions?

Geographical predisposition and proximity to RE access will certainly play a role in how this all plays out.
Matthew Homola
Matthew Homola
January 12, 2011
Another way of calculating it would be to take the amount of new wind power installed in a recent year (2009 was 9900 MW) use a reasonable amount for equivalent full load hours per year (25%) to calculate the number of new wind generated kWh/year coming on line, then multiply by the range of the Leaf per full charge (100 miles / 24 kWh) and divide by the number of miles driven per vehicle per year (15000). That gives me (9900000 kW)(2190 hr/yr)(100 miles/24 kWh)(1 yr/15000 miles) = 6 million emissions free vehicles could have been added to the roads in 2009. (Total US sales of cars and light trucks was 10.4 million)
In summary, if the contributions of wind and solar to US electric production are considered negligible, then so too is the contribution of electric vehicles to US electric consumption, even assuming all new vehicles were strictly EV's.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 12, 2011
Good points, Bob. It was DARPA, not Al Gore, that reared the internet.
But the EV is a big battery surrounded by a small car. Costs for both the car and battery involve raw materials and labor which are not experiencing cost declines. And we've wrung most of the gains from automation on the car assembly line. Check the current sticker prices compared to the past.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 12, 2011
Bravo, Heinrich, for that high buck rooftop solar system. I hope you live in Arizona. It should be interesting as it charges the EV at night.
John Petersen
John Petersen
January 12, 2011
Bob Wallace, I used the prices for the Cobalt, Prius and Leaf because they were the vehicles used in a study Tam sent me.

When it comes to the Leaf, I view the $33,000 list price as a loss leader because the car is priced at $45,000 everywhere else in the world. When considering the macro-economics, tax subsidies are irrelevant because they only exist for as long as somebody is willing to tax Peter to buy Paul a new toy. In my book that's plunder not policy.

I've heard all the justifications for subsidies but the fact is that no industrial revolution has ever sprang from a technology that did not first prove its economic merit in a free market. The subsidies followed proof of fundamental value and were designed to accelerate implementation. The only major exception to the rule was corn ethanol and we all understand how effective that's been both as a fuel and as an investment.
E Fried
E Fried
January 12, 2011
There is nothing to counter the argument that electrification alone does not deliver the minimum with regards to energy demand or GWP.
Smaller cars, car sharing and low biofuel blending are first steps which help to realize immediate savings.
For the long term strategy however it is to early to judge - Lithium-Air batteries may have very different LCA characteristics...
I do feel more comfortable not to rely only on electrification and work towards low carbon solutions in every respect. So head forward investigating ethanol usage in PHEVs and for REs, but there might be very different technical solutions generating energy at home available in a few years ruining the business models of the utilities.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 11, 2011
@Andrew_W -- Actually, I'm putting cars WITH the horse, renewable energy advocates can -- and should -- use EVs as a reason to grow renewable energy, and as a means to inspire individuals to tap renewable energy forms such as solar PV.

It's so frustrating to see so many renewable energy and/or environmental advocates completely miss this opportunity.

A big reason we now have a 5.59 kW solar system on our home's roof is because we'll soon be getting an EV (and using it to replace a gas stinker), and we're not alone:
- http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2151
- http://solarchargeddriving.com/news.html

There's such an incredible opportunity to link renewable energy to transportation, and to grow renewable energy while cleaning up transportation and the environment. I just don't get why so many supposed renewable energy advocates are so closed-minded toward this opportunity. Fortunately, not all are, and we have visionary companies like Envision Solar, Merit Builders, and countless others who clearly see the radical potential of merging transportation and renewable energy.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 11, 2011
Steven, the high-end Prius is about $30,000, so if we use $26k as our base price for a Prius, the comparison to the Leaf starts getting a lot closer. And as EV prices come down I have little doubt that EVs will be comparable to HEV prices in the new few years (particularly as Chinese companies get in the game here in the U.S. as they have recently with wind and solar power equipment). And as the grids green further, the CO2 benefits increase... You know the arguments by now.
ANONYMOUS
January 11, 2011
Tam,
I believe the sticker price on a Leaf is $32,780 before government incentives. The low end Prius is ~22800. At these prices John's line of reasoning would reach the same conclusions. Also, based on your cost per mile estimates you would have to drive one more than 250,000 miles to make up for the price differential. Clearly, the justification for the vehicle will have to come from somewhere other than the immediate economic argument. In the near future, most drivers would probably be better off purchasing a Prius, but the EV vehicles might have a small niche now among fans of new technology. If will be interesting to see whether or not this situation changes based on further technological advances and other market forces. Some degree of investment in exploring new technologies is warranted; how much is an open question and neither your arguments nor John's have shed much light on these issues. Still, it was a fun discussion....
Steven
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 11, 2011
Steven, John's argument re CO2 abatement per dollar of investment does not apply to the Leaf, which is quite a bit cheaper than the Volt. And as you mention, and others have mentioned, the current premium paid for EVs will very likely diminish substantially over time. Last, when we consider the regional benefits of EVs and the change in the grid over time, as well as (very importantly) non-GHG benefits from EVs, it becomes pretty clear to me that we should fully support EVs and PHEVs.
ANONYMOUS
January 11, 2011
I am reminded of the many times that analysts claim that nuclear power isn't carbon neutral because electricity is used in the refining of the ore and the electricity is generated mostly by fossil fuels. The argument is flawed because there is no requirement that fossil fuel be used for electricity generation and any new nuclear power serves only to reduce the dominance of fossil fuels.

To some extent electrical vehicles will create new electricity demand above and beyond that which can be served by the extant coal plants and a larger percentage of such new demand will be met by renewables. Peterson's analysis does not consider this factor.

Perhaps the primary concern with Peterson's analysis is that his success metric is the amount of CO2 reduction accomplished in the short term. By this measure, he is correct--for a given investment the Prius will reduce more CO2 than a like investment in the Volt or Leaf brands. I'm suspicious of success metrics that don't have a long term horizon though. The CO2 we produce in the next few years isn't going to doom the planet provided we development tho technology needed for dramatic changes in still later times. If some level of investment in electric vehicles achieves that goal this will be funds well spent. I'm not especially optimistic that this will prove to be the case, but whether or not this is true would seem to be a more important question than a short term focus on immediate CO2 abatement.
Steven
Fred Kraybill
Fred Kraybill
January 11, 2011
ChristofHeinrich is right on! When the car was first invented the horse was considered superior and more mobile. But the car improved and we built a system of roads to accomadate the car and give it mobility. If tens of thousands died from heat waves this past decade (Russia 2010, Europe 2003) and if the primary cause of those heat waves was carbon dioxide, then most certainly we need to go all out for electric cars and clean renewable energy.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 11, 2011
Andrew, the point of the Carnegie Mellon and Del Maestro studies is to figure out the lifecycle emissions benefits of EVs with various electricity mixes. Even with 50% coal, there are significant emissions benefits because EVs are about 2.5 times more efficient at turning energy into locomotion. And as grids evolve to be more green, the benefits improve substantially. And for grids that are already quite green, like CA's, the benefits are dramatic even today.
Andrew W
Andrew W
January 11, 2011
50% of the power consumed by EVs comes from coal power plants. That means there is no gain for the environment.

Too many people are putting the "cars" before the horse - clean, affordable electricity.
ANONYMOUS
January 11, 2011
Christ of Heinrich, you make a good point. I suspect the other commentators are neo-classical economists. Conventional economics doesn't handle technological change particularly well for a number of reasons. Non-linearities associated with technological change are especially difficult to handle - the usual response is to assume that change is linear.

As for electric cars, I am not convinced that they are a viable option either. The amount of energy used in the production of cars themselves is significant, what about transmission and distribution losses associated with whatever kind of power we are talking about? I would suggest that better urban planning (reducing urban sprawl) and better public transportation are better long term paths to sustainability. EV might still have a niche but not as a replacement for conventional cars, in the short-to medium term they could also be a useful transition technology. This of course might entail behavioural changes difficult to stomach, and which don't seem to be on the table….

Thinking of things in terms of current costs without considering the wider implications for system-wide sustainability is a mistake. Surely the lesson from both considerations of energy security and environmental sustainability is that markets are not always good at allocating resources, especially in the face of binding long-term constraints.
Christof Demont-Heinrich
Christof Demont-Heinrich
January 11, 2011
@rolf-westgard-67277. So let me see if I have this right: Because EVs and renewables currently account for a "negligible" amount of American energy consumption and production they are not worthy of any significant investment?

By this logic, change would never happen because when it began, inevitably as "negligible" change, it would not be worth pursuing because it was too "negligible".

This is a self-fulfilling -- and faulty -- logic that seems to assume (presume?) that because status quo energy approaches currently dominate, that they must necessarily always dominate. Either this, or change must somehow leap out of nowhere and miraculously overtake the status quo in order to replace it.

Thankfully, a lot of us reject this status quo ideology. In fact, we live our lives directly in opposition to it. (I'll be plugging an EV directly into a brand new home solar system, thank you very much, and saving money by doing so, thank you very much!). And, because we do, and because we get together to ensure there are more and more of us who do, change does happen, and it will happen on the oil/transportation front too. It has to, because oil is very definitely a finite resource, while wind, sun, hydro, wave energy, etc. -- which very well could power the world if only global humanity set its mind to doing this -- are not.
John Bronson
John Bronson
January 10, 2011
I think it's a little premature to be comparing modern production EV prices with hybrid and ICE vehicles. Wait until EV production ramps up in a few years, then compare the prices.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
Rolf, if we're going to have a serious dialogue do me the courtesy of checking the links I provide for my data. Check the link I provided and see if you still disagree.
ANONYMOUS
January 10, 2011
Rolf,
I am looking at the Dec. 27 EIA release and can confirm that Tam is reading the table correctly. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1_a.html)
I note that 8 months of the 2010 data now have "R" legends indicating a revision, perhaps quite recent.
Steven
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
Tam, you need to change glasses. Perhaps you have figures from China. For one thing EIA's latest release was Dec 22. Next release is late Jan. Check tables 7.2a and 7.2b.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
EVs need a big reduction in battery cost and more capability. As JOhyn Peterson points out, that is unlikely. Battery production uses expensive raw materials and human labor - those costs go up. No Moore's Law for batteries.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
PS. Rolf, if you're referring to the latest Electric Power Monthly, you're way off base.

Here's the latest year to date (through September, the latest figures available) comparison for wind and solar power:

Wind Solar
2008 38,997 757
2009 53,291 761
2010 67,857 1,120

EIA supports, then, my estimated 50% growth rate of solar in 2010 quite well, showing 47% YTD growth in solar.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epmxlfile1_1_a.xls
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
Tam, that's really funny. You don't like EIA numbers so you are going to pray for a revision. EVs will have a trivial impact on our oil consumption for the foreseeable future.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
In the upper Midwest now, the effective range of a Nissan Leaf is the same level at which your ICE car would begin flashing a warning light, telling you to hit the nearest gas station.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
Rolf, good to see that the EIA figures you cited are current. However, my point remains because you're looking at production and I was talking about installed capacity and growth rates of installed capacity. Also, as you well know, EIA figures are often adjusted, sometimes dramatically, well after the fact. So even if the figures you use are allegedly for recent production, I won't be at all surprised if they revise these figures significantly in coming months.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
Sorry, Tam, but this is from EIA's latest monthly review. Through Sept 2010 wind had net electric generation of 65.6 billion kwh, a 29% growth over 2009. I use the latest figures in the energy classes I teach at the Univ of Minnesota.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
Rolf - EIA's figures lag. You didn't supply a link but I'd bet money the figures you're referring to are from actual production in 2009 or even older.

I did, however, use an incorrect figure in my solar growth rate. The 100% figure refers to growth in the rate of growth. So, based on existing data (which will surely be finalized in coming months) from SEIA and others, the growth rate of solar doubled in 2010 over 2009, rising from about 500 MW of new capacity to over 1 GW of new capacity in 2010. This looks like it will turn out to be about a 50% growth in installed capacity (from about 2,000 MW to 3,000 MW), but we'll see what the final figures are in coming months.

As for wind, the installed capacity of wind dropped by half in 2010 compared to 2009, based on AWEA data. So where 2009 saw a 35% growth rate, it looks like 2010 will show less than a 20% growth rate.
rolf westgard
rolf westgard
January 10, 2011
>>>>solar grew 100% in 2010 – despite a still-weak economy (wind power growth dropped substantially, unfortunately).<<<<<

Per table 1.3 in EIA's latest output total solar consumption is up 3% in 2010 over 2009. Wind actually continues its strong growth aided by massive subsidies. This article is nonsense.
In 2009 solar produced 808 million kwh versus 864 million kwh in 2008, both numbers a tiny fraction of 1% of our total production. Solar is still so small, EIA can barely measure it. And crank up those coal plants for the EVs. And the main reason EVs are affordable for many is the big payout in subsidies from the rest of us. Wait till you get stuck in traffic on a cold or hot day with heater or AC running. Keep
your AAA membership current.
EVs are a fringe product that will have little effect on oil consumption for a decade.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
John, I think you're still way off in your analysis for a number of reasons. First, I'll agree to your societal up-front costs for the three cars. But you're still using national CO2 figures for the associated emissions from these cars and ignoring the fact that our electricity emissions changes dramatically region to region and will change significantly over time. I highlighted these exact points in my article.

You also ignore the fact that capital costs are only a portion of the costs of vehicles - fuel costs and maintenance costs cannot be ignored. So whereas a Volt will set you back a lot more up-front than a Prius (which I love by the way, having driven a Prius for the last four years), you'll recoup that cost over time because you'll be paying a lot less in fuel costs (with the time period required for payback depending on how much it's driven and what gas prices rise to in coming years). See my previous comment on this article, showing that the Nissan Leaf costs half as much per mile to run as a Prius under today's electricity and gasoline prices in CA. Those savings stack up quickly. And note that the Leaf costs a lot less than the Volt up-front.

Last, as a global warming agnostic, you should be more convinced of the benefits of EVs as a key way to reduce petroleum reliance - far beyond the potential of HEVs if EV adoption ramps up quickly.
John Petersen
John Petersen
January 10, 2011
I view everything in life as a question of incremental costs and incremental benefits and believe the work you've done supports my thesis instead of disproving it. I know that's not the response you were hoping for but at least hear me out with an open mind and see whether you find my logic sound.

I think we can both agree that:

1. The base prices of three comparably sized vehicles are $16,000 for the Cobalt, $22,000 for the Prius and $40,000 for the Volt; and

2. The lifetime CO2e values for the 2010 models are 99,790 for the Cobalt, 40,521 for the Prius and 36,591 for the Volt.

In return for an incremental capital investment of $6,000 you can upgrade from a Cobalt to a Prius and reduce lifetime CO2e by 59,269 tons at a capital cost of $0.10 per ton.

In return for an incremental capital investment of $18,000 you can upgrade from a Prius to a Volt and reduce lifetime CO2e by an additional 3,930 tons at a capital cost of $4.58 per ton.

In a capital constrained world where only $18,000 (or any multiple you may choose) is available for CO2 abatement, using the capital to build three Prius' would result in societal CO2 abatements of 177,807 tons while using that capital to build one Volt would result in societal CO2 abatements of 63,199 tons.

The same analysis applies if you consider batteries as the constraint rather than capital. With a 16 kWh stack of batteries (or any multiple you may choose) you can build one Volt or a 10 Unit Prius fleet. The one Volt will reduce societal CO2e by 63,199 tons. The 10 unit Prius fleet will reduce societal CO2e by 592,600 tons.

If you're a global warming agnostic like me and your primary concern is imported oil, the calculations yield similar results for societal fuel savings.

I've always argued that we should encourage across-the-board upgrades to HEV technology now because that's where the biggest bang for the buck. When we get to a point where HEV technology is ubiquitous, we can take it up to the next level.
Tam Hunt
Tam Hunt
January 10, 2011
Steven, you're right: I goofed on that comparison. Here's a more accurate comparison that I put together last year for the Nissan Leaf, based on CA electricity rates:

Nissan Leaf:
$3.60 per "fill up"
100 miles per charge
3.6 cents per mile

My 2010 Prius:
43 mpg
7.5 cents per mile

Chevy Cobalt:
27 mpg
10.4 cents per mile

Hummer:
14 mpg
20.3 cents per mile
ANONYMOUS
January 10, 2011
Tam writes: "A "fill up" for an electric car will cost about $1.50 – a massive benefit compared to $30-50 for a gas fill up in a typical car. This is the economic rationale for paying higher up-front costs for electric vehicles."

The second statement may be true, but the first one is not a fair comparison. The travel range possible on a "fill up" of an electric vehicle is much lower than that from a full tank of gas. A valid metric would be the travel cost in cents per mile. An even more complete metric would be the total cost of ownership including both the purchase price, maintenance, and the cost for fuel over the lifetime of the vehicles (and renormalized for if the vehicle lifetimes differ significantly). One should also add on the cost of alternative travel arrangements when the EV vehicle's range does not suffice and the gas-powered vehicle's range is adequate. I don't know what vehicles "wins" then, but that would seem the most relevant question.
Steven

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Tam Hunt

Tam Hunt

Tam Hunt is managing member of Community Renewable Solutions LLC, a renewable consulting and project development company focused on community-scale wind and solar. He is also a lecturer at UC Santa Barbara’s Bren School of Environmental...
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