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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? ×

Two Wrongs Don't Make It Right

Scott Sklar, President, The Stella Group, Ltd.
September 29, 2010  |  31 Comments

September is proving to be a month of political intrigue, international intrigue, and some downright fantasy regarding our energy future.

The Monday, September 27th Washington Post editorial entitled “Energy Roulette” lambasted Senators Bingaman (D-NM) and Brownback (R-KS) for introducing their “so called” renewable electricity standard. They did so, not because of Ken Bossong’s SUN DAY Campaign release a few days before, also bashing the Bill in which he said the proposed RES:

“would require sellers of electricity to retail customers to obtain 3% of their electricity from renewable energy resources or from energy efficiency improvements by the years 2012-2013. Yet, according to the most recent issue of the "Electric Power Monthly" issued by the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), non-hydro renewable energy sources (i.e., biomass, geothermal, solar, wind) provided nearly 4.1% of domestic U.S. electrical generation during the first half of 2010. Hydropower provided an additional 6.8% of net U.S. electrical generation for the same time period. .... Moreover, electrical generation from non-hydro renewable sources continues to grow rapidly. According to EIA data, electricity from biomass, geothermal, solar, and wind during the first six months of 2010 increased by 13% over the amount generated during the first half of 2009. Wind-generated electricity increased by 21.4%; electricity from solar thermal and photovoltaics rose by 16.4%; wood & other forms of biomass rose by 4.5%; and geothermal output increased by 0.8%.” 

No, The Washington Post was concerned that greenhouse gas should be the main rationale and technologies like nuclear (and others) would be left out of the incentive pool.

Now this great concern comes after the nuclear industry has received billions of dollars of subsidies and protections - far greater than all the other renewable and energy efficiency technologies combined.

Further, this great concern comes just one week after news reports (albeit not in The Washington Post) that a “A North African branch of Al-Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the kidnapping of seven foreign employees of Areva at its Arlit uranium mine site last week.  A burgeoning civil war in the north of the country over profits from the country’s uranium mines – most of which have gone to the government and the more affluent south – has resulted in a situation many feared and tried to prevent; an opportunity for Al Qaeda to organize and mobilize.” (SOURCE: Beyond Nuclear Bulletin September 23, 2010)

Now don’t get me wrong, the Senators Bingaman and Brownback in their joint press release stated, “A national RES also will increase our energy security, enhance the reliability of the electricity grid by creating more homegrown renewable energy and reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. “ And that is undeniably true.

But an RES, if it is to work must set goals beyond where the market is already incrementally going. And any RES must include direct-use renewables such as solar daylighting, solar thermal, ground-coupled (geothermal) heat pumps, CHP, and biomass thermal and geothermal as well as high-value energy efficiency. And this action needs to be bipartisan and accomplished soon.

Contrary to the views of The Washington Post, some experts have shown during the entire fuel cycle, nuclear energy produces carbon when uranium mining, generation and waste storage are fully taken into account - and that’s atop having to import uranium and protect the system from terrorism and human failure.

But the biggest wrong, is that the clean energy community and Members of Congress have strayed away from what the initial policy driver was for a Renewable Energy Portfolio Standard (RPS). The change was intentional because the word “Portfolio” matters. The initial concept was for new electric power generation to have mandated incremental goals for “newer” emerging commercial renewable technologies to insure the United States diversifies its electric generation base. A similar concept, the Renewable Fuels Standard was developed for transportation fuels.

Contrary to the Tea Party movement, the federal government has involved itself in making sure there is a “portfolio” of players or options in the marketplace. Antitrust laws and requirements for banks to have their reserves invested in a portfolio of investments are just two examples.

There is a solid national security rational for an RPS. First, to ensure that domestic technologies that have less than 10 percent market share can have entry into the market. And second, so that we don’t water down the definition to allow other technologies, such as nuclear, to fit the bill.  Bringing nuclear into the equation, even though it may have “so called” less carbon, only substitutes one subsidized option for another – subsidizing nuclear with federal taxpayer dollars means we will still have to import uranium and spend taxpayer dollars to defend supply line, generation plants and waste repositories.

So here we sit with a proposed Senate RES that has goals that we have already met; groups in the clean energy/environmental community buying into cosmetic rather than substantive policy and market improvements; and recent oil spills, natural gas pipeline explosions, and uranium kidnappings as our current collection of “energy choices.”

Happy Fall 2010.

 

31 Comments

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Stephan White
Stephan White
February 24, 2013
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Fred Linn
Fred Linn
October 10, 2010
I've never heard of anyone building bombs out of wind turbines or solar panels.
Anne van der Bom
Anne van der Bom
October 5, 2010
Anyone thinking nuclear is cheap should first read this: http://www.thestar.com/business/article/665644

The many people saying that nuclear is cheaper than renewables tend to forget one thing: time. The price of is PV dropping like that of computer hardware. The investors in nuclear power have to pay billions upfront for a piece of kit that will take years to build (not exactly known how many, the nuclear industry tends to let schedules slip). The big uncertainty between now and then is the price of renewables, and most notably PV. No other generating technology has so much potential for immense cost reductions. So effectively, they can not know whether their investment will be competitive at the time when it is ready.

Forget about NOW, it's about the FUTURE. Investors tend to get very nervous about these risks. With the kind of money at stake and long planning horizon, no one is gonna jump in without government guarantees (which are a form of subsidy).
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
October 5, 2010
Let's not forget the cost of running a distributed solar water heating and storage system is far cheaper than any purchased fuel source or electricity because the fuel is free. Just the operation of two 85 watt circultion pumps is required, and that could be done with a small PV/battery system. Granted, the hardware costs are more than other conventions now used by most, but if one is planning to heat living space and water, the main energy uses in a northern, freezing winter climate, for 10 or 20 years it is worth considering as part of infrastructure costs. Warm season heating of a pool, sauna, or hot tub is then a 'gimme'. But even if the collectors are covered in summer, the winter gain offsets the cost over time. With no fuel, no CO2, no burning stuff. Backup is needed for long off-sun times, and that can be provided by ones current heating system. Any electricity or fuel produced by other means that is used for heating is money wasted.
The DOE says over half of domestic energy use is used for heating in this country.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
October 5, 2010
---" I note that the article and all the prior comments were concerned with types of electricity generation."---

Natural gas is a source of electrical generation. It comprised 24% of our electricity production in 2009. About the same amount as hydro and nuclear combined.

----" Even in this context, his comment is not entirely true; for example, running a ground sourced heat pump with electricity generated by coal or hydro power would be cheaper than heating by burning methane."-------

I don't see mobs of people tearing out gas furnaces and water heaters to install heat pumps.

I ran a comparison of a heat pump vs. HE natural gas heating on a contractors comparison software for you. The heat pump is $4800 compared to $2800 for the NG furnace.

Your cost for a gas furnace would be $ 1360 per year.

Your cost for an electric heat pump would be: $ 1474 per year.

These costs are based on the following assumptions:

The heated area of your house is: 2000 square feet.
Your house's insulation is: Typical.
The winter heating load hours for your location is 2000 hours.
The efficiency (AFUE) of the gas furnace is 97.5%.
The gas furnace does not have a standing pilot light.
You pay 160 cents per Therm for natural gas.
Your monthly customer charge for natural gas is $7.00.
The efficiency (HSPF) of the electric heat pump is 9.
You pay 14 cents per kilowatt hour for electric power.
Your monthly customer charge for electric service is $35.

Even with the heat pump--you would pay $114 more for electricity than gas. That isn't counting the $2,000 more that you paid for the furnace.

That is for an air source heat pump---ground source would be even more expensive, you have to have pipes installed, and the area and suitable terrain---flat unused area with permeable loose soil, free of rocks, packed clay, trees, driveways, watersheds, septic drainage fields, underground cables, pipes, etc.
ANONYMOUS
October 5, 2010
In comment #23 Fred writes: "You have poor reading comprehension skills Steven. Electricity is a consumer available energy source, not coal or nuclear, unless you have a coal fired boiler and have trucks deliver coal to your basement, or you have built a nuclear power plant in your basement. On average, electric heat costs almost three times as much as natural gas. It varies---but electric is always much more expensive than natural gas."

I note that the article and all the prior comments were concerned with types of electricity generation. If Fred's obscure comment was initially intended to be a discussion about home heating costs then he has posted to the wrong discussion. Even in this context, his comment is not entirely true; for example, running a ground sourced heat pump with electricity generated by coal or hydro power would be cheaper than heating by burning methane. I could go on, but lets try to focus on the topic of this thread.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
October 5, 2010
In comment #24 Fred writes; "Peak load supplemental power is most often provided by back up diesel generators"

One wonders where Fred conceives of these statistics. Diesel fuel is used to generate only a very very small percentage of electricity (peaking or otherwise). Of the total amount of electricity needed for peaking loads most comes from natural gas turbines or hydro power.
Steven
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
October 4, 2010
----" This is untrue, methane is one of the most expensive sources of electricity, which is why it is often reserved for peaking power needs"---

Peak load supplemental power is most often provided by back up diesel generators. Diesels can start up and be generating power in less than a minute. Coal or nuclear take several hours. Diesel generators can run on petroleum, natural gas or biofuels, any of them, or all of them.

So can catalytic fuel cells.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
October 4, 2010
-----" "It (methane) is already the cheapest form of consumer available energy."----

You have poor reading comprehension skills Steven. Electricity is a consumer available energy source, not coal or nuclear, unless you have a coal fired boiler and have trucks deliver coal to your basement, or you have built a nuclear power plant in your basement. On average, electric heat costs almost three times as much as natural gas. It varies---but electric is always much more expensive than natural gas.

Nobody heats their water or runs a furnace with electricity if natural gas is available.

-----" Additionally, methane is a fossil fuel so it contributes to climate change."--------

Methane is both a fossil fuel(natural gas) AND a biofuel(biomethane).

Climate change is caused by atmospheric warming caused by infrared radiation capture and conversion to heat. Methane use is the only means we have to reduce infrared capture in the atmosphere. Methane produces about 1/2 the CO2 compared the same energy return as coal. The same amount of energy from methane produces only 65% CO2 compared to petroleum.
Methane is produced naturally by the bacterial decomposition of cellulose. Methane has 17X the heat capture and conversion capacity that CO2 does. If we capture methane that would have otherwise escaped into the atmosphere, for example, treating sewage or tapping landfills, and burn the methane instead of coal or oil---we are exchanging high GHG effect methane to relatively low GHG effect CO2. A 6% mixture of biomethane will produce GHG neutral emissions in their effect on atmospheric warming. Anything greater than a 6% mixture of methane will cause atmospheric cooling. Nothing else can do that---not even an ultra high tech nuclear reactors.
ANONYMOUS
October 4, 2010
Fred writes in comment #21:
"It (methane) is already the cheapest form of consumer available energy."
This is untrue, methane is one of the most expensive sources of electricity, which is why it is often reserved for peaking power needs. States that depend on methane for most of their electricity have dramatically higher electricity costs than the national average.

Additionally, methane is a fossil fuel so it contributes to climate change.
Steven
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
October 4, 2010
Methane can produce power on demand and is usable directly in diesel or otto cycle ICE engines. It is clean, efficient and easy to make and store. It is well known, widely used, has an extensive infrastructure already in place and presents no problems of waste after use, unlike coal or nuclear. It is already the cheapest form of consumer available energy. It can even be used in catalytic fuel cells.

Coal, petroleum and nuclear are clear losers in comparison to methane.
ANONYMOUS
October 4, 2010
CONTINUATION of #20

4. "Variability issues with wind and solar power have proven solutions."
This is only partly true. One could perhaps generate 30-50% of our electricity needs from solar and wind without relying on storage (which is entirely unaffordable). Perhaps methods such as enhanced geothermal power and other technologies will one day allow even larger portions of electricity generation to come from renewables, but no such solutions now exist. At low percentages variability of wind and solar is a minor complication but at high generation percentages variability issues are a key concern with no affordable solution at present.
Steven
ANONYMOUS
October 4, 2010
Regarding some remarks by Aligatorhardt in comment 19:
1) " The costs of nuclear power continue to be heavily subsidized at all levels."
If by heavily, he means by less than 1 cent per kWh, then perhaps this is true, but this is much less than renewable energy generation on a per kWh basis.

2) "The cost of new nuclear plants is rising and already the investment alone for nuclear is more than solar for the same wattage."

Solar energy is still way more expensive than nuclear power and isn't capable of providing all of our needs (and won't be able to provide a significant portion of our needs for many years). Hopefully one day there will be an affordable solution that involves the option of 100% renewable generation but absent hugely expensive storage schemes wind and Solar cannot do the job. The real choice we have is not between solar and nuclear but between nuclear and coal. This is a choice with no nice options but where those that are truly concerned about climate change should have an obvious preference.

3) "Nuclear power is not truly renewable and not truly cheap and not a great savings in CO2 emissions when ore processing and transportation costs are considered. "

Nuclear power generation produces no CO2. Processing of the ore could easily be done with non-fossil fuels so it is strange to claim that merely because some ore processing now relies on fossil fuel generated energy that nuclear power should be considered as generating CO2. No one suggests that solar PV panels or wind turbines produced and transported with fossil fuel generated energy should be considered as generating CO2. I note as an aside that the electricity generated by a power plant is more than a order of magnitude more energy than is needed to process the fuel.

CONTINUED
Allen Gerhardt
Allen Gerhardt
October 3, 2010
I think nuclear power is a bad choice for the use of renewable energy funds. The costs are too high compared to true renewable energy. Solar energy is within 3 to 5 years of matching costs with fossil fuels and no concerns of security, fuels, danger to the public or waste disposal. The costs of nuclear power continue to be heavily subsidized at all levels. Many supporters of nuclear are still misleading the public by using old number sets for comparison, and ignoring the long term costs of waste storage. The issue of water use and extra cost of water cooling are not included in the cost comparison. Solar prices continue to improve while fuel prices for mining and transportation costs associated with nuclear continue to rise. The cost of new nuclear plants is rising and already the investment alone for nuclear is more than solar for the same wattage. The potential for disaster cannot be insured in the private sector. The increases in cancer rates cause increased health care costs, which are not paid for by the industry and not included in cost comparisons. The loss of life and productivity from cancer is hard to price, but is a negative not produced by other renewable systems. The use of nuclear provides a debatable short term value , but a long term disability. Nuclear power is not truly renewable and not truly cheap and not a great savings in CO2 emissions when ore processing and transportation costs are considered. Variability issues with wind and solar power have proven solutions. The huge costs and long lead times of nuclear do not meet the needs of utilities that need to add smaller amounts of increased capacity in a effective manner. The public approval of nuclear sites is difficult to obtain in areas with large populations where the power is needed. Terrorist concerns are unique to nuclear power and cannot be ignored.
Steve Fortuna
Steve Fortuna
October 3, 2010
I have no bias against or fear of nuclear energy, but there is one tiny fact that isn't being discussed:
The half-life of uranium-238 is 4.47 billion years. That of uranium-235 is 704 million years. Traditional nuclear reactors consume only 1-2% of the energy potential in the fuel rods. Has anyone modeled the storage and containment requirements for another 100 years of expanded nuke generation? Are these numbers in the high and escalating plant costs we see? Can you name ONE nuke plant that was constructed remotely near its original budget? What would be the "levelized" cost of uranium production if we had to account for the eternal storage and containment cost? What would they be if a containment failure polluted a major drinking water source? There is zero margin for error with a substance that is toxic to humans over prolonged periods. There is no "Yucca Mountain" anymore....no national containment/storage policy. How many millions of barrels of waste are we willing and able to store safely, in perpetuity, and where do we store them? Forgive me for not volunteering my backyard. How do nuclear advocates address this basic public safety issue?
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
October 2, 2010
You said, "...We cannot "kill coal" only to replace it with something that will itself have to be replaced in 30 years. That's terrible economics..."

Not if you replace the number "30" with the number "100." Garbage in = garbage out.

There are two other problems. One is that renewable energy is even more expensive, and two, it is unlikely that a grid consisting of only wind, hydro, and solar is technically feasible.

"...If we were to try to shift our entire demand load to nukes..."

That's not what I'm proposing. If you are not going to follow and read the links provided let's not waste our time:

The Nuclear Enhanced Renewable Grid (NERG)

http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2010/09/nuclear-enhanced-renewable-grid-nerg.html

Reframing Nuclear Power as an Ally of Renewable Energy

http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2010/02/reframing-nuclear-power-as-ally-of.html

I'm not sure you grasp the full magnitude of the global warming problem:

http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/img34.gif
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
October 2, 2010
Russ,

We cannot "kill coal" only to replace it with something that will itself have to be replaced in 30 years. That's terrible economics. Global warming will likely cost between 50 and 100 trillion dollars by 2100, but that works out to between 15 and 30 dollars/tonne CO2 that is emitted between now and then. If your solution requires that we spend hundreds of dollars per tonne abated, your solution doesn't make sense. This is where we are with nuclear. If we load out too quickly with new nukes, then the affordable uranium supply will be exhausted before the longevity of the plant has come to pass... making nuclear a disastrously expensive option.

Limited load out will allow a reasonable deplinishment of the economically extractable ores over the lifetime of the plants... But that means that worldwide the total capacity has to remain between 400-500 GW. If we were to try to shift our entire demand load to nukes, and built 2000+ GW of new capacity over the next couple of decades, the cost of uranium would price nuclear power out of the market before the nukes built today were 1/3rd of the way through their useful life.

Nuclear power could be a modest augmentation to our efforts to lower carbon, but that's about all, and any nuclear policy has to prepare for a gradual drawdown of nuclear power over the next 30 years (plant decommissioning must exceed plant construction over the next 30 years).


Keller,
You clearly haven't done any research into the costs of various alternatives and are merely repeating false rhetoric. I'm sorry if you don't LIKE the facts as they are, but at $1.85/W installed a 33% capacity factor wind tower will have a LCOE of ~$45/MWh. Some wind farms, however, have capacity factors as high as 50%, and $1.85 is the average cost for wind installations... some wind farms are as low as $1.55/W.

Wind truly is competitive with coal in terms of cost of production. The problem is that it requires fossil backup.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
October 2, 2010
Glenn,

"The issue is not when will the world run out of uranium... the issue is when will the process of obtaining uranium be too costly to justify the gathering of more uranium.."

The MIT study says there is enough fuel for now, not forever. We don't need it forever. We need it to kill coal now while we build a renewable grid.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
October 2, 2010
Phil, concentrated solar also generates waste heat and as glenn points out, that heat is not significant on a global scale. Waste heat can also be captured and put to use in many cases (co-heat and power --CHP).

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2010/09/water-water-nowhere-implementing-solar-thermal-in-a-desert-environment
ANONYMOUS
October 2, 2010
As Glenn also points out in comment #11, Phil's complaints about heat produced during electricity generation are entirely without basis with regard to altering the planetary climate (waste heat dumped into local rivers can, of course, have adverse environmental effects, but such problems can be readily dealt with using available and affordable solutions). The sum of all man made heat sources is utterly inconsequential compared to the solar insolation we receive. Changes to CO2 levels ARE a major concern because this alters the amount of solar radiation that is absorbed. Thus, coal generation plants (which produce roughly the same amount of waste heat as nuclear power) and which compete with nuclear power in the market place are a significant environmental concern whereas nuclear power is comparatively safe. We don't have adequate renewable technologies in place to provide 100% of our electricity generation needs so a decision to shut nuclear power out of the market place is a de facto decision to increase our reliance on fossil fuels. Phil is quick to hurl insults, but slow to learn--his errors in regard to the planetary energy balance have been pointed out to him before. Perhaps one day he will realize that some of those that disagree with him merely lack the utopian blinders and scientific ignorance that color his perception.
Steven
Michael Keller
Michael Keller
October 1, 2010
Glenn-doty:
Wind is not cheap and in no way can compete with coal fired generation plants. The abysmal capacity factors and unreliable nature of the energy source make the machines very poor investments, absent Government handouts. As we have seen on a number of occasions, when subsidies evaporate so does wind turbine construction.

Renewable portfolio standards amount to nothing more than the funding of a bunch of welfare queens using taxpayer money.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
October 1, 2010
Phil,

The total energy produced by human activity doesn't equate to even a tenth of a percent of the nuclear reaction at the Earth's core. Our total energy production from thermal power sources (including oil) is not enough to melt more than a few cubic miles of ice, and even with current atmospheric concentrations well over 99% of that energy would be effortlessly radiated into space as it's produced at the planet's surface. So the direct heat produced by thermal energy plants MIGHT be responsible for a tenth of a mile of ice melt or so...
Increases in concentrations of atmospheric CO2, on the other hand, has likely increased the total ice melt of the planet by over 100 cubic miles/year (and rising quickly)...

I think it's logical to be far more concerned with increasing CO2 levels rather than being concerned with increasing the amount of heat we tiny humans produce at the surface of the Earth.
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
October 1, 2010
Russ, that report from MIT was blatant insanity. Peak uranium will hit in perfect coincidence with peak natural gas. The professors at MIT were only looking at the total resource within the crust.. not the economics. The economics are more important than the ultimate resource.

btw - I'm fine with nuclear power... I know quite a few people working at Westinghouse and one of my best friends is a plant manager. So I'm not addressing this on the basis of some kind of anti-nuclear rhetoric (such as the root article).

But peak Uranium is a real issue, and it will likely hit ~25-30 years from now at the same time the world will be facing peak natural gas. The quality of ores being mined today are less than 5% as rich as the ores that were mined in the 70's... and those ores have to be refined. The mining is done with petroleum energy - which will be extremely expensive within 10 years... but the ore processing is the truly energy intensive part, and that's done with natural gas.

If, in 25-30 years, we see another 90% degradation in the quality of ores, and a 10fold increase in the price of oil and natural gas, then processed uranium fuel will cost 100 times as much. In a modern reactor (built today) that would equate to a fuel cost of ~$500/MWh, or 50 cents/kWh. That will be a problem.

Note I'm not concerned with the near future when the U.S. and Russian governments stop selling off stockpiles into the market (currently only 65% of the worlds uranium demand is met by mining, the other 35% is provided by the U.S. and Russian reserves)... that's a minor issue, and doubling the cost of uranium won't impact the end electricity consumer very much.

The issue is not when will the world run out of uranium... the issue is when will the process of obtaining uranium be too costly to justify the gathering of more uranium.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
October 1, 2010
Nuclear energy production may have its safety issues which I will not disaggree with, but there is another side which hardly ever gets discussed. That is the massive amounts of plain old heat; degrees, BTU's, therms, desertification, ice melting, heat that is dumped, added into the earth atmosphere. At a time when the earth is warming by whatever reasons you may (or may not) accept, this is a foolish time to invest in easy energy that makes such massive amounts of heat. On that basis alone this whole idea of nuclear energy is a deal breaker for all but the most un-caring, greedy, profiteering, self centered, egotistic, and blind, neanderthals ever to be nurtured by our otherwise benovolent society. I am not name calling here, but merely identifying the probable characteristics of those who would adopt a certain untenable position.
ANONYMOUS
October 1, 2010
The real driving force for the civilian nuclear fleet was the nuclear navy and other military projects. They provided the prototype testing, and when the commercial fleet was built, the navy nukes provided the training ground for generations of nuclear plant operators. What we need to do, Scott, is to figure a way to power submarines with solar power!

Seriously, though, the military is finally getting serious about reducing their "in-theater" and on-base energy use, and that's driving DARPA and others to finally invest in solar and other renewable technologies. That should help to spur innovation. But yes, we need an RES free of nuclear power to help drive the renewable industry forward, and soon. It should be much more aggressive than the current proposition.
ed woolsey
ed woolsey
October 1, 2010
Thanks Scott...very good article, and as usual you are exactly right.
In Iowa we are seriously looking at Feed-In-Tariffs to incent developing RE technologies. The utility buy-back rate would be set by the IUB at the cost of production plus a reasonable profit...just like it does for the IOU's.
I believe without some sort of "carve out" for different RE technologies any proposed RES will only give us Big Wind owned by a very few Big Wind Owners and serviced by a very few service companies. Where is the market competition there?
Keep up the good work.
Ed
Iowa Wind Farmer

P.S. Fun to watch the fly-by-night perpetual motion nutjobs come out of the woodwork...AGAIN...deja vu all over again.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
October 1, 2010
Admittedly, nuclear is not renewable and if funding for it is going to be provided, they need to rename the bill.

Somehow we have got to get the old-guard greens to change their thinking about nuclear power. What they were told when they were young was a combination of BS and what is now outdated information.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks? Well, you can some, the former head of Greenpeace, the founder of the Whole Earth Catalog, and the inventor of the Gaia hypothesis (just to name a few) have all decided that we need nuclear.

According to a recent report from MIT:

"...The estimate of enough uranium to run 10 times as many reactors for 100 years was given by Charles W. Forsberg, the executive director of the study. While the price of uranium might be driven up by 50 percent, uranium represents only 2 to 4 percent of the price of electricity from a reactor, he said, so a 50 percent increase would mean only another 1 or 2 percent increase in the price of electricity..."

See "The Nuclear Enhanced Renewable Grid (NERG)"

http://biodiversivist.blogspot.com/2010/09/nuclear-enhanced-renewable-grid-nerg.html
Glenn Doty
Glenn Doty
September 30, 2010
Punishing people for their geography.

The idea that you would compel all states to comply with minimal portfolio investments in specific renewables essentially will state that you will randomly punish some states because they happen to exist where they do.

Wind is extremely cheap. It's variable, and it's a pain for grid managers... but it rings in cheaper than coal for many states. However, some states don't have useful wind resources... so that's not available.

Hydropower is next in line... it's fairly inexpensive if you amortize it out over the life of the dam, and often provides numerous other benefits... But if you don't have a good site for a dam, it's just not there for you.

Geothermal can also be quite inexpensive, if you happen to have shallow geothermal heat resources. But many states don't have that either.

Finally, you have to go with solar. Everyone has sunlight... but solar is EXTREMELY expensive even for the desert states... and if you're not in the desert the ROI for solar is down in the 1-3% range. Requiring people to essentially quintuple their electricity bills JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIVE IN A WINDY STATE... while you are requiring others to get similar electricity bills... That's not fair. Period.

If you believe that there's something just about passing a law that will require Louisiana to pay 5 times as much for energy as Minnesota does... I think that you haven't considered the issue very much.

The reason some states want to force nuclear into the option is that it is extremely low carbon (it's just stupid to pretend otherwise), and they can have this low cost energy at merely ~3 times the cost of coal based energy.

Of course, if this did actually occur, I have no idea what the states that build several GWs of nuclear energy will do in 30 years as the world begins to face peak uranium... because NUCLEAR IS NOT RENEWABLE... but that is another issue.
a b
a b
September 30, 2010
The future new plug in battery/hydrogen/fuelcell ICE vehicles can run on solar, wind, geo-thermal and even old fossil fuels and costly nuclear that have waste energy at night. My home GRID tied solar PV system runs my home, help my utility during Peak Hours and I will take on their excess energy at night so it won't be lost, by also charging my Plug-in vehicle. If I had V2G I could save the off peak excess and sell it back at a premium on Peak.
a b
a b
September 30, 2010
" Attempts by renewable interests to lock nuclear power out of the market place seem motivated more by greed than environmental concerns. Steven "

No dude, NPP's are no renewable and makes us depend on others to supply us with the energy we need, besides littering the landscape with radioactive mining tails, boxing spent fuel rods tighter and tighter in large cooling ponds that are dependent on well functioning water cooling pumps to avoid catastrophy, and spending mammoth amounts of money on military gear to protect it all, money better spent on not radioactive alternative resources.

Give me the not radioactive alternative, as I have been getting since 2006 from my utility Ecopower cvba, supplying me 100% RE electricity reliably day and night, sourced from :
52% of its electricity generating energy from combined heat and power biomass (using locally grown switchgrass + other agro wastes + local or imported wood pellets)
or from biofuels (locally grown oilseed crops, oil burned in ICE power generators, remaining organic wastes recycled as animal farm food or converted in an anaerobe digester into methane biogas for CHP combustion and into compost for farmland improvement)
38% from owned wind turbines
6% from owned solar PV panels installed on client account homes
2% from run-of-river hydro power
2% from a few small scale city waste anaerobe digester producing methane biogas powering gasturbines generators.
And in june 2010, Ecopower cvba received building permits to install 45 new wind turbines, to cover new accounts power demand, if I can believe the information provided in their 6 monthly bulletin review sent to my postal address.
ANONYMOUS
September 29, 2010
The author writes: "Bringing nuclear into the equation, even though it may have "so called" less carbon, only substitutes one subsidized option for another"

" 'so called' less carbon" is an unusual term for a generation scheme that produces *no* CO2. There are good reasons to be concerned about atmospheric CO2 concentrations and there is currently no adequate solution that relies entirely on renewables. The government should not be locking nuclear power out of the market place when this will result in more reliance on coal.

As for the author's remark that: "we will still have to import uranium and spend taxpayer dollars to defend supply line, generation plants and waste repositories," the largest uranium producers are Canada and Australia which are unlikely to need defending (and if they did they would merit the benefit of the full force of US power because they are among our best friends). Furthermore, fuel costs are a small fraction of the cost of energy from nuclear power.

Attempts by renewable interests to lock nuclear power out of the market place seem motivated more by greed than environmental concerns.
Steven

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Scott Sklar

Scott Sklar

Scott, founder and president of The Stella Group, Ltd., in Washington, DC, is the Chair of the Steering Committee of the Sustainable Energy Coalition and serves on the Boards of Directors of the Sustainable Buildings Industry Council, the...
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