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New York's Solar Thermal Plans

The next sunshine state: plans to put New York ahead of the pack in solar thermal.

David Appleyard
July 28, 2010  |  21 Comments

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By unveiling a solar heating and cooling programme that could create 25,000 new green jobs, generate US$2.6 billion in revenue and see 2 GW of new solar thermal capacity installed in the state over the next decade, New York has revealed its ambition to become America’s national leader in solar heating and cooling.

Setting out its solar thermal roadmap, which was published at the NYSEIA conference in May 2010, the Solar Thermal Consortium (STC) plan focuses on improving uptake of solar thermal technologies through consumer education and incentives, installer training, promotions to attract manufacturers, investments in R&D, and permitting improvements.

Developed by more than 130 industrial, academic and governmental representatives, the Solar Thermal Roadmap creates a path to move New York State toward the equivalent of 1 million solar hot water collectors, or half a million residential systems, by 2020.

While these figures are still dwarfed by the German market, where around 200,000 solar hot water systems are installed annually for example, the measure is deeply significant in the US, where so far federal efforts have largely foundered and, as in many other nations, solar thermal is still the neglected poor cousin of other renewable energies like wind and solar PV.

With individual states left to devise and implement their own renewable energy programmes, the solar thermal plan for New York stands out.

The logic behind such a scheme is irrefutable, the New York Solar Energy Industries Association claims. ‘Sixty percent of the energy consumed in New York State buildings is to provide heat and hot water’, said its president, Ron Kamen, who noted that with the Roadmap: ‘New York is moving to become the national leader in the research, development, deployment and manufacture of solar thermal technologies.’

Focused on solar heat and hot water applications for buildings in New York State, the Roadmap is modeled on global best practices, as well as new ideas from the consortium. Its goal is to develop the New York State solar thermal industry so that the total installed statewide capacity grows from its current estimated level of 6 MWth to 2000 MWth by 2020, with 70% coming from residential and 30% from commercial installations.

The Roadmap’s proposed implementation would save an estimated 6 million US gal. (22.5 million litres) of oil, 9.5 million ft³ (270,000 m³) of natural gas and displace 320 GWh of electricity production annually by 2020, translating into consumer savings of more than $175 million per year, the STC claims.

Barriers To Implementation

While the total U.S. installed solar thermal capacity of some 7.6 GWth is close to the German installed capacity of 8 GWth, the majority of this capacity is derived from swimming pool heating rather than domestic hot water or space heating. On a per capita basis, the contrast is stark, with 100 Wth/person installed in Germany and 0.3 Wth/person installed per person in New York State, a factor of close to 1000. Indeed, the Roadmap acknowledges that the state lags the world in terms of solar thermal usage.

Nonetheless, despite the small base, since heating and cooling makes up around 30% of the total energy use in the U.S., and current total installed solar thermal capacity equates to approximately 0.06% of the entire U.S. energy consumption, there is an opportunity for solar thermal to make a significant impact.

Solar thermal has certainly seen growth in cold climates such as those encountered in the region. For example, in 2008 Canada installed 40 MWth of solar thermal capacity for both space and water heating. Even so, the report does recognise that levels of adoption and market growth are a result of many factors, including energy cost, governmental regulations, aggressive marketing and educational programmes, and incentives.

In New York State the authors contend that solar thermal systems can provide 50%–70% of the domestic hot water used in a typical residence and that the state has an opportunity to expand this sector of the economy and position itself for a strong export base. However, there are significant hurdles to overcome. For example, the technology and its benefits are not widely known by consumers. Furthermore, sufficient industry knowledge and certified installers to support successful installations are lacking, and there are gaps in the value chain from materials to end-user. In addition, potential barriers to development of the industry in the state include poor awareness and perception based on experiences from the 1970s and 1980s. At that time the systems were perceived to be unreliable and with short life expectancies. Poor system integration and installations were primarily to blame for these experiences, the STC says.

Public sector support is also required in order for large-scale solar thermal adoption levels to be achieved. A public education campaign will require the support of both industry stakeholders and public officials to be successful. Governmental support is required initially to make the systems cost effective and to attract manufacturing capability to the state. This requires an educational and lobbying effort on the part of the industrial partners targeted at state, federal and national officials.

The development of a trained workforce is also critical to achieve the goals of the Roadmap. It is vital that the quality of installations is high and that the systems function properly. An installation workforce needs to be developed and trained to ensure that this occurs. Courses are available which can provide this training, but few are currently located in the state.

System costs are another significant barrier to widespread adoption. While there is a segment of the market that identifies environmental issues as the primary driver for adoption, the Roadmap goals cannot be achieved by this segment alone and current system and permitting costs need to be addressed to grow the industry significantly.

The ability to fully realise the potential of solar thermal technologies is currently further limited by long-term technology development. Advanced technologies such as solar assisted cooling, integrated PV/solar thermal systems, and low temperature solar thermal electric generation are potential areas of opportunity. Thermal storage is also an area that, if effectively solved, would allow for additional advancement of the industry.

Costs of Solar Thermal in New York State

The rationale for developing a strong solar thermal industry in New York State comes from three areas: end-user energy cost savings, environmental impacts, and economic development through job creation systems and industry sales.

A model for direct hot water (DHW) systems was developed to determine the potential impact of the adoption of solar thermal technologies, and to investigate incentive and growth levels needed to reach the roadmap goal. Based on industry input, systems were modeled with initial installed costs of $8000 for residential systems and $18,000 for commercial systems. The costs were held fixed for three years and then reduced at an annual rate of 5% thereafter on the basis of increased competition and supply, as well as future technological improvements.

The price of energy in New York State is among the highest in the USA. In 2009, electricity averaged 17.8 US cents/KWh and a four person ‘model’ family would be expected to spend between $390 and $1100 (depending on the fuel source) to provide domestic hot water in 2010. Over the past 10 years energy prices in New York State have increased at a substantial rate averaging 9% and 11% annually for fuel oil and natural gas respectively. A conservative 8% annual escalation in fuel prices is assumed in the model, which by 2020 drives the cost for heating hot water to between $620 and $1700 per household, again depending on the fuel source.

In this analysis, assuming the 8% annual increase in energy prices, by 2020 the savings for a four person model family supplying 50% of their water heating needs from solar are projected to increase to between $310 and $850 annually. Fuel savings, from residential DHW applications alone, show the potential for a dramatic reduction in emissions too. In 2010 the model family with a solar thermal system could save approximately 100 US gallons of fuel oil, 125 therms of natural gas or 3100 KWh of electricity.

According to the model, combined residential and commercial sales start at $5 million in 2010 and rise to $629 million in 2020. Total revenues from 2010–2020 are projected to be $2.6 billion. Furthermore, the analysis is based only on the development of a state-wide domestic hot water market. The potential impact is obviously multiplied when other technologies such as solar space heating, ‘combi’ systems and solar assisted cooling are considered, as well as potential opportunities elsewhere in the US and overseas.

Solar Heating systemAbove: Solar heating systems are a common sight in Germany. Credit: ESTIF

Job creation associated with the solar thermal market development is modeled using current job levels in Europe as a basis. And in Europe, one job is created and sustained for every 1000 ft² (93 m²) of newly installed panel area, the Roadmap states. These jobs include manufacturing, installation and maintenance, and under the developed growth model, in total approximately 24,000 jobs will be created and sustained by 2020, significantly up from the current estimated level of some 36 solar thermal employees. Clearly, the impact of a vibrant solar thermal market is significant to the state.

Solar Thermal Roadmap Recommendations

Recommendations set out in the Roadmap aim to address market barriers in a logical, cost effective manner and are grouped into five main categories including organization; awareness and marketing; institutional issues; workforce development; and, research and development.

The key recommendations are to:

  • Create a state-wide educational campaign and electronic resource to inform consumers about solar thermal and its benefits;
  • Initiate a solar thermal financial incentive programme to encourage installations by shortening payback time;
  • Promote New York State as a location for manufacturers;
  • Invest in research and development to create a scientific base which systematically develops next generation technologies; and,
  • Clarify permitting procedures and union jurisdiction to simplify installations.

Funding for these solar thermal-focused efforts could come from the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI), Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS), the New York State Public Service Commission or similar programmes, the authors say.

Addressing public awareness, the roadmap recommends that a solar thermal website should be created to provide a central resource in the state. And, in order to track consumer awareness and satisfaction, it is recommended that a consumer survey be conducted each year focused on installers, consumers, and the general public. Data from the surveys will be used to determine market conditions — for instance the number of installs, system costs and such like — as well as an indication of consumer satisfaction, and the effectiveness of the marketing campaign.

Furthermore, growth in sales can also lead to job increases beyond installation jobs through increased manufacturing capability within the state, the report’s authors argue. For example, they say, interactions with European manufacturers during the course of developing the Roadmap have indicated their desire to locate manufacturing capabilities within the US.

In order to take advantage of these growth opportunities, it is recommended that within three months a committee led by economic development organizations be formed to develop a statewide marketing plan, for the expansion and attraction of manufacturing capabilities into the state. The marketing plan should address state and US market potential, state incentives, the existing workforce capability and industrial base, as well as R&D capabilities.

Current tax incentive programmes (30% federal, 25% state) for solar thermal systems provide a payback period for the average system of about 11–15 years for modelled residential systems. Payback for commercial systems can be significantly shorter due to accelerated depreciation. It is recommended that an incentive programme be combined with the current tax rebate programme to reduce the payback term further. It is additionally recommended that all available incentives be tied to an installer certification scheme to encourage high installation standards.

A fixed rebate model would pay a fixed amount based on system size and capability, as well on the primary heating source. Such an incentive programme could include residential as well as commercial, industrial, institutional, and agricultural consumers, though they may be structured differently. The incentive programme should be designed to sunset as system costs decline and energy prices escalate, the authors say, adding that such a model is attractive as it decreases the upfront out of pocket expenses, which may be a barrier to adoption.

Incentives could also be tied to utility companies. For example, the Long Island Power Authority (LIPA) Solar Rebate Program is designed to offset electric usage through the adoption of renewable energy sources. This is particularly attractive to those consumers which use electricity to provide heat and hot water. LIPA reports that since 2000 it has paid out approximately $59 million in incentives resulting in more that 2400 installations (mostly PV) on Long Island and the creation of over 50 companies to conduct those installations. PV system costs have dropped to 35% through this programme and a combination of state and federal incentive schemes, and such programmes could be expanded or developed to include gas and oil customers, the Roadmap document says.

Addressing a number of key institutional issues, the Roadmap also recommends that a permit system is developed so that a single permit can be applied for and granted for an installation. Such a permiting process would simplify installation procedures and reduce costs, while still ensuring that the installation complies with relevant zoning and building requirements.

It is also recommended that certain levels of renewable energy be mandated directly into the building code. Generating a significant proportion of a building’s energy from clean sources is clearly possible given current technologies and it is proposed that all new buildings over 10,000 ft² (929 m²) in area must generate 10%–20% of their energy from onsite renewables.

To encourage minimum installation quality standards state financial incentives could eventually be offered for systems that are installed by professionals who have passed – as a minimum – an entry-level solar hot water certification exam. The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) does currently offer a solar thermal certification test, though any requirement to sit this exam would most likely exclude the majority of the exisiting installers and restrict the initial growth of the industry, the authors argue. Currently there is no ‘entry-level’ exam, though NABCEP is reportedly developing one. Thus, in order to prevent a bottleneck in installation certification it is proposed that New York develop a staged programme of certification.

To properly train and qualify New York installers and inspectors, the preparation of a multi-faceted education scheme is another sensible goal, the authors say. Although there are many educational offerings already, a more robust and comprehensive educational programme and some governmental support for it are recommended.

In addition, despite the significant advances in solar thermal, further R&D is also needed to continue to reduce system costs, improve quality and performance, and develop new technologies.

While New York State has a substantial R&D base, there are few research groups within the state that directly focus on solar thermal. To facilitate the development of a R&D base within the state, the creation of a Solar Thermal Center of Excellence (COE) is recommended in the Roadmap.

The centre would encompass a collection of researchers with varied technical skills and interests aligned with solar thermal needs. Participants would be spread over a number of institutions and this would allow for the leveraging of existing expertise. In this way the state would nurture a developing specific research base. The authors argue that the cluster should be developed and funded based on existing models in the state for academic/industrial partnerships.

Funding for the Solar Thermal COE would initially come from the state. The funds would be used for administrative purposes and to support initial research efforts.

Research would be awarded through a competitive proposal process, with matching funds required from industrial sources. Over time, however, the funding for the centre would predominantly come from industrial sources. The development would also help to attract new industrial capability to the state as it would allow for strong academic/industrial collaboration supporting the local development of new technologies, the Roadmap says.

The creation of a solar thermal system certification testing centre is also recommended by the analysis, which points out that New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) currently has an effort underway to develop small wind (less than 100 kW) and PV certification testing centres. A similar operation could be developed for solar thermal. Currently there is a bottleneck in the system certification process as the number of systems being submitted is greater than the available capacity. It is expected that within three years the certification centre would be fully self-sufficient with revenues from testing funding its operations.

While 42 million solar thermal systems have been installed worldwide, the US has been slow to adopt this technology. However, sentiment is changing. As the nation’s focus on renewable energy continues to grow, the expectation is that the adoption of solar thermal technology will, too.

Consequently, leading international solar thermal companies are looking to establish production facilities in the US and the Roadmap’s authors believe that an organized effort to promote the industry could position the state as the solar thermal leader. They note that most states will be aggressive in trying to attract new business, especially given the recent business climate, and New York State aims to win first mover advantage to secure its share of a new industry that will create manufacturing, jobs and investment.

The STC is led by the collaborative efforts of Clarkson University’s Center for Advanced Materials Process (CAMP), the NYSTAR Center for Advanced Technology (CAT); the New York Solar Energy Industry Association (NYSEIA); The Solar Energy Consortium (TSEC) and Droege & Company, an international management consultancy firm.

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Thermal storage is also an area that, if effectively solved, would allow for additional advancement of the industry

21 Comments

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g r
g r
August 13, 2010
I put speculation and hearsay to rest, and decided reality is the best answer.

I ordered a half-container of evactube collectors from China (200tubes+manifolds landed boston <$6k)late '08, installed half on my brothers roof, the other mine. I wanted to buy american mfgd, was not an option then for evactubes. (Corning, please re-enter the mkt!)

I got all required permits, built my own pump stations, bought 4ea gorgeous Vaughn solar storage tanks in NJ for peanuts from a liquidator who had no idea what they were.Learned enough thermodynamics and plumbing best practice to properly and safely size and assemble the systems, built in simple heat dumps, failure mechanisms and vacation bypasses, and now provide 99% of DHW for my household, approx 80% for brother's. Fully passed town inspections with high praise for quality of work and attention to mechanical, electrical and structural codes.

i even included flat panel radiators (blems i bought at high discount) as heat dumps for space heating.

someone said price has got to be higher for installers ... what? the goal is affordable non-fossil sustainable energy for the home, and make it as simple to install as possible, not primarily to feed installers. sweating copper is not hard. Flex stainless works fantastic as well. i blended several technologies into system to test, then set about separating myth from reality. too much myth going around. anyone with a brain and ambition can DIY, and in many cases better than "professionals".

total cost for these 125,000btu ea systems self-installed can easily be <5k if done intelligently. my eyes roll when i see the evactube vs flat panel debates. you can build an excellent system either way, just need to use your brain and design correctly.

we only run the boiler to heat DHW approx 5-6 times/yr when lots of company visits or for extended low sun periods.

presently installing 3kW of Andalay PV panels - great time to take responsibility, get some balls and DIY.
William Fitch
William Fitch
August 7, 2010
Hi BK:

Q#1
"Imported vs. made in America(read NY) from a value long term should be a part of this program..."
Q#2
"Consumers will vote on the evacuated tube vs. flat plate and..."

I don't believe there are any evac mfg's in the USA, so consumers will not be making the decision, it will be politics as usual making it, if your Q#1 is implemented..... Once again engineering gets trashed for political goals and gains... God, will not it ever end....

.....Bill
Bob Kingery
Bob Kingery
August 7, 2010
As a 25 year solar installer I believe many are missing the real point here which is NY has developed a real roadmap that can succeed.

Thoughtful and accounting for all major challenges.

Consumers will vote on the evacuated tube vs. flat plate and flat on roof vs. tipped up with their purchase decisions. Paybacks over 10 years are tough sells to most consumers.

Imported vs. made in America(read NY) from a value long term should be a part of this program for sure. Look at Ontario. I believe they get the prize for best program to take them from nothing to darling.

The focus on job creation is a major part of the value in these state programs. It is a win-win-win for the politicians, industry and consumers and that plane has a chance to fly.
William Fitch
William Fitch
August 5, 2010
Hi AA:

Basically tilt angle. I never mount evacs less than 60 unless the sun access is not there. I do drainback with evacs using my proprietary DPDB system which is a pressurized drainback with no exchangers. I run up as high as 235 DegF which is not a problem as long as you are pressurized. But, anything over 212 there are other "issues" and safety concerns you have to watch out for.
Solar fraction is always dependent on the exact location and loads. The 90 figure is here in central PA with a family of four that are somewhat energy aware. Obviously, if you are where it is very cloudy and cold and have people who don't care at all about hot water usage, I.E. waste, you will not achieve that. You don't have to be a miser, but you can not be at the other end either... You can run 60 tubes against 120 gal. Again, it would depend on the exact location and load conditions. But, you won't do it with flats, at least on a year round average. They drop off to much when cold and cloudy. The extra 40 to 60 degs evacs give you under no load, is just enough to increase SF even in the cloudy times so you yearly average doesn't suffer much. Mounting angle is VERY important for proper system tuning. Most installers though don't push that to much though, because they don't want to loose a sale to the "wife" over elevated collectors... Sorry, don't mean to be sexist, its just experience by the numbers. Females care more about the homes "looks" on average, and are less tolerant of those things...
If you are curious about some of my installs, you can look at my site:
www.WeAreSolar.com
I am also NABCEP certified, though I am not a fan of certs., but the GP thinks they are a big deal and they get tied to money one way or another...

.....Bill
Aaron Becker
Aaron Becker
August 5, 2010
Hi All,
What did the authors mean by "gaps in the value chain from materials to end user"? Were they referring to lower developed material costs not getting passed on to the end consumer?

As solar thermal consumer as well as an installer, I can't help but want my solar fraction to be high - if I'm going pay for an installation, I'd like it to be as close to 100 percent - even if the efficiency of the purchase drops as a result - to me - it's about the energy independance and the fossil fuel savings.

As an installer, I see thermal stgorage as a constant hindrance - often with not enough space for tanks to do combi systems. I have been enthusiasticaly watching the development of the latent heat storage systems - has any New York installers put in these tanks? Seems like you get more "punch" for the storage size but the costs are prohibitive...

Will Fitch - I was curious - you say you can get 90 percent sf w/ 80 gallons - what about a couple of cloudy days in a row with constant usage - don't you experience this solar scenario more than 10 percent of the time? I would thing that you'd use up the 80 gallons in the first day, and the following day(s) require backup energy...regardless, I'm still in your camp - I, also, would install (2) 30 tube collectors but with a 120 gallon tank (however, I installed (2) 4'x 8' fp's in drainback to an 80 gallon preheat to my 40 gallon indirect off the boiler) If you have 90 percent sf - how did you control overheating in summer? Was tilt angle all it took? I'd think you'd boil an 80 gallon tank....Has anyone done evacuatyed tubes in drainback? I'm about to do a commercial DHW this way....

Also, All: Anyone got NABCEP certification? I would love for NY to have just one solar thermal installer license like Connecticut has and for a uniform permitting process...
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 31, 2010
Hi #15:

I think it is a little bit out of place to expect a discussion about NY's chosen thermal plans to include a detailed analysis of advanced concepts regarding flate plate VS evacuated tube technology. I mentioned the evacs in regards to the posted figure about their $8000 and 50% SDHW numbers. My own install experience knows that 90+% using a 60 tube evac array and an 80 gallon storage can be had for 6K or lower depending on the site specifics. I did not say this to create a debate about two different thermal technologies, though that usually seems to be the result, unfortunately. Additionally, I think the limit of 2000 characters is a bit small, to expect answers to what gets into some rather complex engineering concepts....

.....Bill
Benjamin Gorman
Benjamin Gorman
July 31, 2010
What's perhaps most disappointing is the I'm-right-your're-wrong, chest-puffing, argumentative attitude of some posters. I often come here seeking information or clarification; in this case, I have a fair amount of knowledge about solar thermal already (from training as a salesman and as an instructor), and have found a crux in the evacuated tube v. flat plate debate. Hence my visit to this article and its comments. But there's no clarification to be found here; only the usual "I know it all and the rest of you are stupid or worse."
Well, there are plenty of other places to do research.
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 31, 2010
Hi:

The evac tube "product" is a product that is continuing to develop the necessary changes to be successful in the USA market from an engineering and business perspective. I import them... have been for about 5 years.. I started my solar business with them. I had NO ties to flats, evacs or PV and made the evac choice based on my testing engineering experience. They are an incredible product WHEN the system is designed for them. All to often, designers simply pop them into a flat plate designed system and think all is as it should be, ignoring, due to ignorance or lack of information the differences in the products... The Chinese are very responsive to engineering change suggestions, when given the valid data to base those changes on, and are very innovative themselves...
Evacs will overtake the market in freezing climates eventually, but it will be a slow progression as everything moves along...

.....Bill
ANONYMOUS
July 31, 2010
One solar thermal company has a mostly developed CSP system where they offer ownership in their plant at "No Cost" - where tax benefits cover the (entire) cost - for more:         tnns.org/solar
David Kaufman
David Kaufman
July 30, 2010
Regarding el cheapo chinese systems: these are in fact sold for $300+ in China, where for many years the solar thermal market was the world's largest without even having any subsidies. However, teh combination of needing to sell product into a low-income market, combined with no subsidies, led to a massive emphasis on reducing first costs.
One of the biggest factors: the Sydney Tube evacuated tube, now widespread in both cheapo and export-quality systems.
This was invented by folks from the University of Sydney (hence the name).
Three years ago I was advising a solar start-up interested in importing these cheap systems. I called, and the University of Sydney team advised using extreme caution: in China, the mean time to failure of most such systems is...3-5 years!
Caveat emptor.
quintin bullis
quintin bullis
July 30, 2010
srcc, makes some of the costs of the units esp from other countries more costly,, even when the systems are exactly like those that are already certified.. costs 3,000 every year to get a certification.. so you have to sell a lot of systems to make the money to get them certified.. and problem is people here in nys don't think they work.. their wrong, some of these systems work so well that they replace an existing hot water tank totally,, for example our own home has a 44 gallon solar collector, and a 15 gallon tank for a back up.. ( which doesn't run. ) cause the solar make more energy for us than used. daily. but also i tweak all my systems and get a higher efficiency system. by 15 degrees higher per tube. . which makes my systems work even cloudy days..
quintin bullis
quintin bullis
July 30, 2010
greetings,
how's about a program called ( RENT TO OWN ) solar hot water heating , using 44 & 66 gallon Integrated solar collectors. 24 tube & 30 tube systems. that make hot water and i sell for 2250. a system and installed for 3350.00 or 500.down 166 mth. for 36 months. a system to make them more affordable for all. check us out at www.renaissancedevelopers.com
we're trying to make them affordable for all.. and show that they work even here in NEW YORK STATE.
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 30, 2010
Hi SG:

I have no doubt that you have been in industry for a long time, it obviously though, has not been the solar industry...

EOL..


.....Bill
Scott Greenbaum
Scott Greenbaum
July 30, 2010
WF

You must know somethign about physic I do not know. The solar radiation in the winter is 25% of the summer. Are y proposing a very high angle and significantly oversizing the collector area. That may work but the cost will never justify investment. If you put at 60 or 70 degrees to capture winter sunshine dont forget the wind loads. The collector does nothing on the ground in pieces. I have been in the industry for a long time and bad practices catchup to you.

One blow off can cause enough damage to offset all the savings from the installation. Families take long vacations during the summer. Flat plates peak out at 140 to 150 ºF and can act as a radiator at night. Evacs can produce 200 plus degree and do not act as radiators at night. These systems are not designed to handle steam. Some contractors try to get away with flexible piping that melts if to hot.

One bad installation that does not work as advertized will killl the industry for a large radius. Caution is required or we will be back in the early 1980's where the reputation of solar went to Zero. Everyone thought it did not work because of the mistakes. We know how to avoid the mistakes now so use good engineering practices and put them in correctly before you ruin my business.

Learn you business before spouting your mouth. I spend to much time correcting the mistakes of incompetant individuals.
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 30, 2010
Hi SG:

To put it simply, your wrong. Over heating is not an issue if they are mounted at the correct angle. Doing so allows for an almost flat generation capacity over the year. If sized correctly for the given family load, blow off's are few and far between...
It all comes down to good system design from people that understand the real differences between flats and evacs...
Most don't...

.....Bill
Scott Greenbaum
Scott Greenbaum
July 30, 2010
The cost of installation does not seem unreasonable. The installer has to make money. What I have problem with is the proposed technology. Vaccum tube technology is not approprient for solar DHW applications because they are designed for higher water temepratures that can result in failures during summer vacations. This problem gets worst if flexible piping is used. Also flat plate collectors generate more hot water annually.

Making 90% of the DHW annually is economically inefficent. It results in over collection during the summer. To protect the system from overheating this collected energy must be exhuasted and therefore wasted. From an economic point of view collecting 50% is the best return on investment and has the lowest risk factors.

Another reason not to use the vaccum tube is cleaning up after they are broken. What a mess as they implode. Shards all over the place. Do not think they are shatter proof. It does not take much to break. I have a friend that makes a good living cleaning up the mess.

If the professionals do not provide the best advise the result will be people not trusting us and a lack of confidnese in the technology.

Give the correct advise "flat plate and 50% collection".
Maurice Wildin
Maurice Wildin
July 30, 2010
What is meant by "if effectively solved" in referring to thermal energy storage? What problems need to be addressed? There is a body of literature published by ASHRAE on both heated and cooled storage, including solar thermal systems. If there are problems that have not been solved, I believe that the members of ASHRAE Technical Committee 6.9 would like to know about them.
M. W. Wildin
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 30, 2010
Hi:

Interesting ground assist. I do my home SAHP with three old 4'x 8' flat plate collectors. A full sunny day yields about 100,000 BTU's into the ground using about 600 watts total/day to circ the solar loop. That's a storage charge COP of about 50.
If I had the room in my yard, I would have done separate "fields" for heating and cooling. I would have used Winter cold air to freeze the ground in the AC field for Summer usage and then had the SA field running solar heat gain 365 days a year. This would allow a really superb COP for cooling and heating. Heating a single field, I start heating it around late August and quit in the beginning of April so as not to adversly effect the Summer cooling COP.
I will be interested to see your COP's for Winter when you have the data...

.....Bill
Ron Tolmie
Ron Tolmie
July 30, 2010
The most economical method for utilizing the sun's energy is to extract the heat from the air in the summer and store it in the ground for use in the winter. Such systems can provide hot water throughout the year and greatly improve the efficiency for air conditioning in the summer. A description of such a system (located on the NY/Ont. border) is described in a paper presented at the International Green Energy Conference: http://kanata-forum.ca/igec-5-tolmie.pdf
Tim Ellison
Tim Ellison
July 30, 2010
Expanding upon William Fitch's comment --

It is even more rediculus that that!

A 30 tube evacuated collector can be purchased FOB Shanghai for about $400; they are sold to consumers in this country [USA] for about $1800.

The SSRC and subsidies allow this to continue.

In China such a system would be installed for about $1000. No wonder 100's of millions of Chinese have such systems, and in the U.S. they are rare.

Tim Ellison, Ph.D.
William Fitch
William Fitch
July 28, 2010
Hi:

$8000 for a res install is ridiculous, as is the 50% SDHW fraction. A two 30 tube evac, 80 gal storage system can give a family of four 90+% of there DHW load and can be installed for $4000 to $6000 gross cost, depending on site specifics. This is a prime example of price inflation due to the way the incentives are paid. If they were paid based on installed system performance over time in a two or three tier fashion, most of the financial desire to over inflate would go away. Home built systems as well would qualify, as long as they kept producing energy. The states MONEY as well would stretch much, much farther per BTU produced....

.....Bill

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