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New York's Solar Thermal Plans

By David Appleyard
July 28, 2010   |   21 Comments
The next sunshine state: plans to put New York ahead of the pack in solar thermal.

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Thermal storage is also an area that, if effectively solved, would allow for additional advancement of the industry
21 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 21
July 28, 2010
Hi:

$8000 for a res install is ridiculous, as is the 50% SDHW fraction. A two 30 tube evac, 80 gal storage system can give a family of four 90+% of there DHW load and can be installed for $4000 to $6000 gross cost, depending on site specifics. This is a prime example of price inflation due to the way the incentives are paid. If they were paid based on installed system performance over time in a two or three tier fashion, most of the financial desire to over inflate would go away. Home built systems as well would qualify, as long as they kept producing energy. The states MONEY as well would stretch much, much farther per BTU produced....

.....Bill
Comment
2 of 21
July 30, 2010
Expanding upon William Fitch's comment --

It is even more rediculus that that!

A 30 tube evacuated collector can be purchased FOB Shanghai for about $400; they are sold to consumers in this country [USA] for about $1800.

The SSRC and subsidies allow this to continue.

In China such a system would be installed for about $1000. No wonder 100's of millions of Chinese have such systems, and in the U.S. they are rare.

Tim Ellison, Ph.D.
Comment
3 of 21
July 30, 2010
The most economical method for utilizing the sun's energy is to extract the heat from the air in the summer and store it in the ground for use in the winter. Such systems can provide hot water throughout the year and greatly improve the efficiency for air conditioning in the summer. A description of such a system (located on the NY/Ont. border) is described in a paper presented at the International Green Energy Conference: http://kanata-forum.ca/igec-5-tolmie.pdf
Comment
4 of 21
July 30, 2010
Hi:

Interesting ground assist. I do my home SAHP with three old 4'x 8' flat plate collectors. A full sunny day yields about 100,000 BTU's into the ground using about 600 watts total/day to circ the solar loop. That's a storage charge COP of about 50.
If I had the room in my yard, I would have done separate "fields" for heating and cooling. I would have used Winter cold air to freeze the ground in the AC field for Summer usage and then had the SA field running solar heat gain 365 days a year. This would allow a really superb COP for cooling and heating. Heating a single field, I start heating it around late August and quit in the beginning of April so as not to adversly effect the Summer cooling COP.
I will be interested to see your COP's for Winter when you have the data...

.....Bill
Comment
5 of 21
July 30, 2010
What is meant by "if effectively solved" in referring to thermal energy storage? What problems need to be addressed? There is a body of literature published by ASHRAE on both heated and cooled storage, including solar thermal systems. If there are problems that have not been solved, I believe that the members of ASHRAE Technical Committee 6.9 would like to know about them.
M. W. Wildin
Comment
6 of 21
July 30, 2010
The cost of installation does not seem unreasonable. The installer has to make money. What I have problem with is the proposed technology. Vaccum tube technology is not approprient for solar DHW applications because they are designed for higher water temepratures that can result in failures during summer vacations. This problem gets worst if flexible piping is used. Also flat plate collectors generate more hot water annually.

Making 90% of the DHW annually is economically inefficent. It results in over collection during the summer. To protect the system from overheating this collected energy must be exhuasted and therefore wasted. From an economic point of view collecting 50% is the best return on investment and has the lowest risk factors.

Another reason not to use the vaccum tube is cleaning up after they are broken. What a mess as they implode. Shards all over the place. Do not think they are shatter proof. It does not take much to break. I have a friend that makes a good living cleaning up the mess.

If the professionals do not provide the best advise the result will be people not trusting us and a lack of confidnese in the technology.

Give the correct advise "flat plate and 50% collection".
Comment
7 of 21
July 30, 2010
Hi SG:

To put it simply, your wrong. Over heating is not an issue if they are mounted at the correct angle. Doing so allows for an almost flat generation capacity over the year. If sized correctly for the given family load, blow off's are few and far between...
It all comes down to good system design from people that understand the real differences between flats and evacs...
Most don't...

.....Bill
Comment
8 of 21
July 30, 2010
WF

You must know somethign about physic I do not know. The solar radiation in the winter is 25% of the summer. Are y proposing a very high angle and significantly oversizing the collector area. That may work but the cost will never justify investment. If you put at 60 or 70 degrees to capture winter sunshine dont forget the wind loads. The collector does nothing on the ground in pieces. I have been in the industry for a long time and bad practices catchup to you.

One blow off can cause enough damage to offset all the savings from the installation. Families take long vacations during the summer. Flat plates peak out at 140 to 150 ºF and can act as a radiator at night. Evacs can produce 200 plus degree and do not act as radiators at night. These systems are not designed to handle steam. Some contractors try to get away with flexible piping that melts if to hot.

One bad installation that does not work as advertized will killl the industry for a large radius. Caution is required or we will be back in the early 1980's where the reputation of solar went to Zero. Everyone thought it did not work because of the mistakes. We know how to avoid the mistakes now so use good engineering practices and put them in correctly before you ruin my business.

Learn you business before spouting your mouth. I spend to much time correcting the mistakes of incompetant individuals.
Comment
9 of 21
July 30, 2010
Hi SG:

I have no doubt that you have been in industry for a long time, it obviously though, has not been the solar industry...

EOL..


.....Bill
Comment
10 of 21
July 30, 2010
greetings,
how's about a program called ( RENT TO OWN ) solar hot water heating , using 44 & 66 gallon Integrated solar collectors. 24 tube & 30 tube systems. that make hot water and i sell for 2250. a system and installed for 3350.00 or 500.down 166 mth. for 36 months. a system to make them more affordable for all. check us out at www.renaissancedevelopers.com
we're trying to make them affordable for all.. and show that they work even here in NEW YORK STATE.
Comment
11 of 21
July 30, 2010
srcc, makes some of the costs of the units esp from other countries more costly,, even when the systems are exactly like those that are already certified.. costs 3,000 every year to get a certification.. so you have to sell a lot of systems to make the money to get them certified.. and problem is people here in nys don't think they work.. their wrong, some of these systems work so well that they replace an existing hot water tank totally,, for example our own home has a 44 gallon solar collector, and a 15 gallon tank for a back up.. ( which doesn't run. ) cause the solar make more energy for us than used. daily. but also i tweak all my systems and get a higher efficiency system. by 15 degrees higher per tube. . which makes my systems work even cloudy days..
Comment
12 of 21
dpk
July 30, 2010
Regarding el cheapo chinese systems: these are in fact sold for $300+ in China, where for many years the solar thermal market was the world's largest without even having any subsidies. However, teh combination of needing to sell product into a low-income market, combined with no subsidies, led to a massive emphasis on reducing first costs.
One of the biggest factors: the Sydney Tube evacuated tube, now widespread in both cheapo and export-quality systems.
This was invented by folks from the University of Sydney (hence the name).
Three years ago I was advising a solar start-up interested in importing these cheap systems. I called, and the University of Sydney team advised using extreme caution: in China, the mean time to failure of most such systems is...3-5 years!
Caveat emptor.
No image available
Comment
13 of 21
Anonymous
July 31, 2010
One solar thermal company has a mostly developed CSP system where they offer ownership in their plant at "No Cost" - where tax benefits cover the (entire) cost - for more:         tnns.org/solar
Comment
14 of 21
July 31, 2010
Hi:

The evac tube "product" is a product that is continuing to develop the necessary changes to be successful in the USA market from an engineering and business perspective. I import them... have been for about 5 years.. I started my solar business with them. I had NO ties to flats, evacs or PV and made the evac choice based on my testing engineering experience. They are an incredible product WHEN the system is designed for them. All to often, designers simply pop them into a flat plate designed system and think all is as it should be, ignoring, due to ignorance or lack of information the differences in the products... The Chinese are very responsive to engineering change suggestions, when given the valid data to base those changes on, and are very innovative themselves...
Evacs will overtake the market in freezing climates eventually, but it will be a slow progression as everything moves along...

.....Bill
Comment
15 of 21
July 31, 2010
What's perhaps most disappointing is the I'm-right-your're-wrong, chest-puffing, argumentative attitude of some posters. I often come here seeking information or clarification; in this case, I have a fair amount of knowledge about solar thermal already (from training as a salesman and as an instructor), and have found a crux in the evacuated tube v. flat plate debate. Hence my visit to this article and its comments. But there's no clarification to be found here; only the usual "I know it all and the rest of you are stupid or worse."
Well, there are plenty of other places to do research.
Comment
16 of 21
July 31, 2010
Hi #15:

I think it is a little bit out of place to expect a discussion about NY's chosen thermal plans to include a detailed analysis of advanced concepts regarding flate plate VS evacuated tube technology. I mentioned the evacs in regards to the posted figure about their $8000 and 50% SDHW numbers. My own install experience knows that 90+% using a 60 tube evac array and an 80 gallon storage can be had for 6K or lower depending on the site specifics. I did not say this to create a debate about two different thermal technologies, though that usually seems to be the result, unfortunately. Additionally, I think the limit of 2000 characters is a bit small, to expect answers to what gets into some rather complex engineering concepts....

.....Bill
Comment
17 of 21
August 5, 2010
Hi All,
What did the authors mean by "gaps in the value chain from materials to end user"? Were they referring to lower developed material costs not getting passed on to the end consumer?

As solar thermal consumer as well as an installer, I can't help but want my solar fraction to be high - if I'm going pay for an installation, I'd like it to be as close to 100 percent - even if the efficiency of the purchase drops as a result - to me - it's about the energy independance and the fossil fuel savings.

As an installer, I see thermal stgorage as a constant hindrance - often with not enough space for tanks to do combi systems. I have been enthusiasticaly watching the development of the latent heat storage systems - has any New York installers put in these tanks? Seems like you get more "punch" for the storage size but the costs are prohibitive...

Will Fitch - I was curious - you say you can get 90 percent sf w/ 80 gallons - what about a couple of cloudy days in a row with constant usage - don't you experience this solar scenario more than 10 percent of the time? I would thing that you'd use up the 80 gallons in the first day, and the following day(s) require backup energy...regardless, I'm still in your camp - I, also, would install (2) 30 tube collectors but with a 120 gallon tank (however, I installed (2) 4'x 8' fp's in drainback to an 80 gallon preheat to my 40 gallon indirect off the boiler) If you have 90 percent sf - how did you control overheating in summer? Was tilt angle all it took? I'd think you'd boil an 80 gallon tank....Has anyone done evacuatyed tubes in drainback? I'm about to do a commercial DHW this way....

Also, All: Anyone got NABCEP certification? I would love for NY to have just one solar thermal installer license like Connecticut has and for a uniform permitting process...
Comment
18 of 21
August 5, 2010
Hi AA:

Basically tilt angle. I never mount evacs less than 60 unless the sun access is not there. I do drainback with evacs using my proprietary DPDB system which is a pressurized drainback with no exchangers. I run up as high as 235 DegF which is not a problem as long as you are pressurized. But, anything over 212 there are other "issues" and safety concerns you have to watch out for.
Solar fraction is always dependent on the exact location and loads. The 90 figure is here in central PA with a family of four that are somewhat energy aware. Obviously, if you are where it is very cloudy and cold and have people who don't care at all about hot water usage, I.E. waste, you will not achieve that. You don't have to be a miser, but you can not be at the other end either... You can run 60 tubes against 120 gal. Again, it would depend on the exact location and load conditions. But, you won't do it with flats, at least on a year round average. They drop off to much when cold and cloudy. The extra 40 to 60 degs evacs give you under no load, is just enough to increase SF even in the cloudy times so you yearly average doesn't suffer much. Mounting angle is VERY important for proper system tuning. Most installers though don't push that to much though, because they don't want to loose a sale to the "wife" over elevated collectors... Sorry, don't mean to be sexist, its just experience by the numbers. Females care more about the homes "looks" on average, and are less tolerant of those things...
If you are curious about some of my installs, you can look at my site:
www.WeAreSolar.com
I am also NABCEP certified, though I am not a fan of certs., but the GP thinks they are a big deal and they get tied to money one way or another...

.....Bill
Comment
19 of 21
August 7, 2010
As a 25 year solar installer I believe many are missing the real point here which is NY has developed a real roadmap that can succeed.

Thoughtful and accounting for all major challenges.

Consumers will vote on the evacuated tube vs. flat plate and flat on roof vs. tipped up with their purchase decisions. Paybacks over 10 years are tough sells to most consumers.

Imported vs. made in America(read NY) from a value long term should be a part of this program for sure. Look at Ontario. I believe they get the prize for best program to take them from nothing to darling.

The focus on job creation is a major part of the value in these state programs. It is a win-win-win for the politicians, industry and consumers and that plane has a chance to fly.
Comment
20 of 21
August 7, 2010
Hi BK:

Q#1
"Imported vs. made in America(read NY) from a value long term should be a part of this program..."
Q#2
"Consumers will vote on the evacuated tube vs. flat plate and..."

I don't believe there are any evac mfg's in the USA, so consumers will not be making the decision, it will be politics as usual making it, if your Q#1 is implemented..... Once again engineering gets trashed for political goals and gains... God, will not it ever end....

.....Bill
Comment
21 of 21
August 13, 2010
I put speculation and hearsay to rest, and decided reality is the best answer.

I ordered a half-container of evactube collectors from China (200tubes+manifolds landed boston <$6k)late '08, installed half on my brothers roof, the other mine. I wanted to buy american mfgd, was not an option then for evactubes. (Corning, please re-enter the mkt!)

I got all required permits, built my own pump stations, bought 4ea gorgeous Vaughn solar storage tanks in NJ for peanuts from a liquidator who had no idea what they were.Learned enough thermodynamics and plumbing best practice to properly and safely size and assemble the systems, built in simple heat dumps, failure mechanisms and vacation bypasses, and now provide 99% of DHW for my household, approx 80% for brother's. Fully passed town inspections with high praise for quality of work and attention to mechanical, electrical and structural codes.

i even included flat panel radiators (blems i bought at high discount) as heat dumps for space heating.

someone said price has got to be higher for installers ... what? the goal is affordable non-fossil sustainable energy for the home, and make it as simple to install as possible, not primarily to feed installers. sweating copper is not hard. Flex stainless works fantastic as well. i blended several technologies into system to test, then set about separating myth from reality. too much myth going around. anyone with a brain and ambition can DIY, and in many cases better than "professionals".

total cost for these 125,000btu ea systems self-installed can easily be <5k if done intelligently. my eyes roll when i see the evactube vs flat panel debates. you can build an excellent system either way, just need to use your brain and design correctly.

we only run the boiler to heat DHW approx 5-6 times/yr when lots of company visits or for extended low sun periods.

presently installing 3kW of Andalay PV panels - great time to take responsibility, get some balls and DIY.
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David Appleyard

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About: David Appleyard is Chief Editor of Renewable Energy World. He also currently holds the position of Chief Editor for sister publication Hydro Review Worldwide.... more »

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