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Climate Action and Senate Politics Do Not Mix

By Clint Wilder, Clean Edge
May 17, 2010   |   30 Comments

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30 Reader Comments
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Comment
1 of 30
Anonymous
May 17, 2010
The author writes: "As for the opposition canard that a carbon cap will harm the economy, scores of business leaders strongly disagree"

Not many of these businesses are major energy consumers; and some of the scientists most concerned about global warming, e.g., Jim Hansen, view the current plan as deeply flawed. The notion that a cap and trade scheme, especially one filled with as many loop holes as this one, is the most efficient way to modernize the energy industry is strange. The policy is virtually certain to significantly increase energy prices while failing to adequately address climate change concerns. The energy needs of the states and their access to various renewable energy options are not equal and a one-size-fits-all federal mandate seems inappropriate for such a complex situation. States with large wind resources can fairly easily add renewable capacity now. Those with access to less well developed sources such as solar thermal, enhanced geothermal, biomass, etc. should be sinking money into R&D on these technologies rather than paying for carbon offsets that will spur a bubble in the wind industry.
Steven
Comment
2 of 30
May 18, 2010
Al Gore; Carol Browner; and green peace follower who are hell bent on destroying this nation with a carbon tax and touting wind solar and battery power as the future of energy; all of which are controlled by China which cheap labor; material; and the control of three of the rare earth metals required for battery technology and wind turbines.



We must continue to develop or 30% to 40% of our current fossils fuels needs that we produce for at least 30-40 years for both security and economic reasons. ($6-$8-$10 a gallon for gas we have already seen what $100- $120-$150 a barrel of oil can do to the economy) Plain and simple we do not have a drop in replacement for oil.



What are you willing to give up; your car; cell phone; electricity; AC and Heating; big screen entertainment center; computer usage?



Both clean natural gas and coal will be a part of our future energy needs along with oil, the catch is replacement of the 60%-70% we now import with renewable energy sources such as trash/sewage; recycling; algae and hydropower.



We are at least 20 years away at best away from the economy you want to drop in now.



Corn farming in the United States has for decades been sending vast amounts of fertilizer runoff downriver into the Gulf, which has created a "dead zone," choking off sea life.

Our years-long practice of befouling the Gulf is a good alternative to having it befouled all at once by an oil spill. There are environmental costs, also, to such a focus on greenhouse gases: Ethanol's damage to water supplies, soil health and air quality are the fruit of government pushing the product as a climate-friendly fuel.


Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News 8/7/2009
While the debate about drilling off the coast of Florida continues in Washington and the state Legislature, several international companies are getting started on projects that could bring oil rigs within 60 miles of the Keys by year's end.
Comment
3 of 30
May 18, 2010
Dear John Monte,
I lived off-grid for seven years with a solar system and I did not give up anything. Perhaps you should stop whining and get with the facts.
Comment
4 of 30
May 18, 2010
Wilder, whose company benefits from his article, uses his own research as verification that what he says is gospel. Nonsense. If he thinks Congress can write a sensible bill that helps -- not hurts -- our economy, he is not paying attention:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, creations of Congress and now owned by U.S., have lost $19 Billion in the first quarter of this year. That's correct, they LOST $19 BILLION IN THE FIRST QUARTER, 2010. Or I guess Wilder is referring to MEDICARE (bankrupt in seven years), SOCIAL SECURITY (going in the red in about ten years) or another government-sponsored entity, the U.S. POST OFFICE (with a monopoly yet,lost $7 Billion in 2009). And of course, the new "Obamacare" bill is going to cost over $1,000,000,000,000. (Numbers used so folks can understand how much money a trillion dollars is.) And that's just the beginning. We will soon pay more on interest on the money we borrow, than we will pay for national defense.

Mr. Wilder, our best bet is that the feds will get out of the energy business altogether and stop writing regulations that make it extremely difficult to get clearance for nuclear plants, for example. The reason oil companies have not built a new refining plant in America in 30 years is because of all the red tape coming out of D.C. and the EPA.

Now, please stop this "climate change-nee global warming" nonsense that carbon dioxide is increasing global temperatures. The report alarmists always cite, the 2007 report by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has already been exposed as false by Phil Jones, the research director of the IPCC, who resigned and has since stated to the media, "There has been no significant global warming in the past 15 years." That statement debunks the 2007 UN report.

kathyjane, does you car run well on solar? I can tell you that our tanks in Iraq require gas, as do all the jet planes that transport us all over the world and provide our national security.
Comment
5 of 30
May 19, 2010
It's the people that oppose this hideous legislation, so get over it!
Comment
6 of 30
May 19, 2010
After reading your article as to the status of the current climate bill and the Lindsey Graham child like behavior, I have now come to the conclusion that all of us in the Clean Energy business, environmentalist of any sort and all of us who believe in true energy independence most now start a new campaign to remove politicians from office. These politicians that do not agree with the premise that we are out of time and every day that passes we lose precious time to hold off the monstrous climate change that's going to take place; These politicians that can't see that the clean energy manufacturing race with China has officially started and we are still putting on our shoes. These politicians that don't realize that the oil wars are only 5 years away; These politicians that don't understand that the most important vote that they will make is to create an economic environment were we are the technology leaders in the clean energy business of the future; these politicians "must all go home". They can no longer stay in Washington and waste up critical time. This is why we must launch together the "Clean it up or Go Home" campaign. Within 90 days you politicians must agree and sign a bill that cleans up our air, prices the real cost of pollution and gets us back in the Clean energy economic race with China in a "BIG" way or we all agree to send you home this November.
Comment
7 of 30
May 19, 2010
The solution is simple, forget taxing carbon and incentivize efficiency instead, Then Build Baby Build.

I think we should give up on carbon capture, we do not currently have an economically viable technology to capture carbon, that is all there is to it.

In the mean time we are doing absolutely noting to lower greenhouse emissions, get this country off of foreign oil and creating a new industrial revolution by adapting to today's REALITY TECH SOLUTIONS for American jobs and national security.

The government needs to CUT, LONG TERM, federal, state and local taxes 100% on ALL AE; energy, power purchases and sales, equipment, retrofits and infrastructure.

The government needs to drastically reduce regulations on AE infrastructure and utility manipulation of AE energy purchase, sales and distribution.

The government needs to cut taxes 100% for the purchase and sale of ALL low
mileage vehicles; HEV, EVs the lower the mileage the lower the taxes. Fleet purchases should get an immediate tax depreciation.

The government needs to stop "investing" our money in corporate welfare and selected "targeted" tax cuts to the well connected few.

Build Baby Build, using today's Reality Tech Solutions like: microturbines, coal gassification, farm waste, sewage waste, natural gas and many many others...we should already be on a sustainable clean ALL American Energy path! Give our businesses the green $$$ incentive to take us to the future, stop waiting for the CO2 debate to play out, we can capture CO2 when we get the tech to do so.
Comment
8 of 30
May 19, 2010
Mr. Wilder; I can tell from your article that you are an individual who believes that Cap and Trade may be a good way to reduce carbon output and that government intervention can provide a solution. I disagree and will try in 2000 characters to explain my position.

1. The government is almost never the solution and is usually part of the problem.
2. Most of the public no longer view politician as honorable people, and;
3. Cap and Trade is not a product - you can't eat it, the public can't save it, you can't drive it or plant it in the ground and watch it grow.

#1 We built the entire Interstate highway system in our country with a bill that was 1/10th the size of the latest energy bills; both Dem and Rep. And speaking of these bills, neither one is worth the paper they are written on. Both contain so many carve outs for special interest groups it's sicking. Is it any wonder the American people no longer trust their government?

#2 It's pretty easy to name at least 5 politicians who were bought off during the health care debate and yes the American people were paying attention. And you want our government to solve our energy crisis, and;

#3 The American people are sick of 2000-3000 page bills and the paybacks to special interest groups, corporations, individuals and foreign governments.

Capping carbon does not reduce carbon. Trading credits just shifts pollution from one location to another. If you want to reduce carbon just STOP burning the darn stuff. You don't have to go very far or read very much to determine that CO2 is only part of the problem.

My first suggestion [and I have many] is this; start looking for someone with some leadership qualities. Second; set a goal to shut down 600 coal burning power plants. If we can't do that as a country then I really questions how serious we are about solving our environmental and energy problems. My 2000 characters are gone.
Comment
9 of 30
May 20, 2010
johnmonte------" Plain and simple we do not have a drop in replacement for oil."------

Plain and simple---we don't need a drop in replacement for oil.

The Fiat Siena Tetrafuel is in manufacture, on sale and in use now in Brazil and Argentina. It can drive on gasoline, a mixture of gasoline and ethanol, hydrous ethanol, or methane. It can drive on some gasoline or no gasoline at all.
http://www.goodcleantech.com/2007/08/new_fiat_siena_ttrafuel_runs_o.php

Mandate that all new vehicles sold in the US have the same capability---and we have no need for oil.
Comment
10 of 30
May 20, 2010
Steven---" The energy needs of the states and their access to various renewable energy options are not equal and a one-size-fits-all federal mandate seems inappropriate for such a complex situation"----

Oil is not evenly distributed either. That is why three wars the US is currently and recently involved in have oil as a major underlying factor.

Everyplace has access to biofuels. Methane can be made from anything biologic at all, including sewage. We can run our vehicles on methane just fine---we've been doing it over 90 years. Methane can be made anywhere from anything. Even sewage. Whereever there are people, there is sewage.

Methane(natural gas) is both a fossil fuel and a biofuel. Natural gas and biomethane can be mixed in any proportion with no loss of performance. It is exactly the same stuff---CH4. Methane is the cheapest form of consumer available energy we have.

The bulk of methane is used to heat buildings and water. Solar thermal energy is easy and cheap to capture and install. It is easy to manufacture and easy to maintain. Solar thermal works best as an auxiliary system---furnaces and water heaters work just the same as they always have-they just use a lot less energy.

Use solar thermal to displace methane used to heat buildings and water. Then use the methane displaced to power our vehicles and replace coal.

Nobody gives up anything. We do the same thing using less because we use free solar energy---and use methane we gain in situations where solar energy will not work.

It ain't rocket science.
Comment
11 of 30
May 20, 2010
Seems to me the underlying thesis of "Cap & Tax" is completely wrong – namely climate change. The actual problem is the inefficient and unwise use of energy. By smarter use of energy, greenhouse gases emitted by man are reduced as a natural byproduct of the primary effort.

Coal plants and conventional nuclear plants are terribly inefficient, and in the case of the later, very expensive to build as well. The wasteful use of nuclear and fossil resources places future generations at risk by prematurely using up the fuels. Extremely expensive renewable energy is not a solution either as it needlessly diverts capital that can be better spent on more productive activities.

Can technology achieve much more efficient use of energy? Yes, without question, as has been repeatedly demonstrated by market forces spurring innovation. So accelerate the replacement of older inefficient equipment, machines and plants with the new. How do we do this? Increase the cost for inefficiently supplying energy, with the increased costs directly diverted to help defray the costs of the new. This can be achieved using existing market mechanisms and does not require the grossly inefficient federal government's "fat-fingered" manipulation of markets to aid and abet siphoning off money for re-election of corrupt politicians.

Bottom line: dump the proposed energy legislation, which is nothing more than a feeding trough for subsidizing industries that can not compete. Instead, concentrate heavily on energy conservation and practical technologies to more rapidly replace the current fleet of inefficient power plants, machines and vehicles.
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Comment
12 of 30
Anonymous
May 20, 2010
Regarding some of Fred's comments in comment #12:
"That is why three wars the US is currently and recently involved in have oil as a major underlying factor."
How much oil is an Afghanistan? (Ans.: nearly none) These wars were NOT motivated by an energy grap--they were motivated by security issues. Rogue states and terrorist cartels cannot be allowed free play. It is just paranoia to believe that oil--which is easily purchased in an open market--was a major factor.

"Solar thermal energy is easy and cheap to capture and install."
Easy is an exaggeration, and certainly it is not equally easy everywhere so a one size fits all federal policy seems inappropriate. Most government policies tend to focus on the electricity market, which seems a flaw as the heating market is larger and potentially more amenable to early modification.
Steven
Comment
13 of 30
May 21, 2010
--------" How much oil is an Afghanistan? (Ans.: nearly none)"-------

The oil is in Turkmenistan in central asia. The pipeline to bring it out to the Bay of Bengal through Afgahnistan and Pakistan is under construction now.

This has been planned for a long time.

TESTIMONY

BY

JOHN J. MARESCA

VICE PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

UNOCAL CORPORATION

TO

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ASIA AND THE PACIFIC

FEBRUARY 12, 1998

WASHINGTON, D.C.


http://www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/linkscopy/Maresca2USG.html

------" Rogue states and terrorist cartels cannot be allowed free play."----

Convenient catch phrases. "stable government" in this case means easily manipulated to corporate and US interests. These wars are no more about the freedom of the Iraqi or Afghan people than the World Series.

------" "Solar thermal energy is easy and cheap to capture and install."
Easy is an exaggeration, and certainly it is not equally easy everywhere so a one size fits all federal policy seems inappropriate"-------

That is a mouthful of big words. The ancient Anasazi Indians of the US Southwest constructed their cliff dwellings in caves on south facing cliff. They did this because in the winter, the southern orientation of the sun would cause sunlight to heat their dwellings. In the summer, the northerly orientation of the sun caused them to be in the shadow, and the cliffs and dwellings were significantly cooler. There can be as much as a 40* difference between the cliff dwellings and the surrounding atmospheric temperatures. The great mass of stone in the cliffs surrounding the pueblos moderates the temperatures and acts as a thermal heat sink----radiating or absorbing heat toward a mean in both summer and winter. These dwellings were built around 1,000 years ago, using only natively available materials.
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Comment
14 of 30
Anonymous
May 21, 2010
Regarding Fred's remarks in comment #15:
If Fred thinks we would have spent 8 years in Afghanistan without the presence of Al Qaeda just so that we could ensure a trickle of oil from nearly Turkmenistan then he has a screw loose somewhere. If we want oil all we need to do is buy it.

As for solar thermal being easy and cheap, if Fred wants to live in a south facing cave in the US southwest then maybe it is easy. I live in the north, and when it is cold there is also frequently a heavy blanket of snow covering everything. I don't see solar thermal as a reliable source of heat for the areas that need it most.

Fred writes: "These wars are no more about the freedom of the Iraqi or Afghan people than the World Series."

I, of course, never said they were. They are about making sure that terrorists and despots do not threaten our cities with weapons of mass destruction and chaos. If, as a consequence, some other nations happen to develop into free societies, that is a concomitant benefit but the primary goal is OUR safety. One could quibble that they might not be the best means to achieve this goal, but it is just bizarre to dispute this obvious motivation.
Steven
Comment
15 of 30
May 21, 2010
--------"....They are about making sure that terrorists and despots do not threaten our cities with weapons of mass destruction and chaos."----

Terrorists and despots only have any power at all to threaten our safety because of our dependence on oil. Without the enormous profits generated by our lust for oil, they would not have any means to threaten our safety.

We would also have no reason whatever to even be in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else in the Middle East. WE created Saddam Hussein. WE created Mouamar Ghaddafi. WE created Osama bin Laden. The threat to our safety is entirely our own creation.

If we aren't there, they can't shoot at us.

Maybe I do have a screw loose. But I have a lot of friends with loose screws. Veterans who have fought in the wars. I am telling you, and the other veterans are telling you---the single greatest threat to the safety and security of the US is oil.

Vote Vets.org
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Comment
16 of 30
Anonymous
May 22, 2010
In comment #17 Fred rants that all terrorism is related to oil. We have only been using oil for less than 2 centuries but terrorism is an age old evil. Fred's claim, as with many of his remarks, is written for inflammatory effect but bears little relationship to truth.
Steven
Comment
17 of 30
May 22, 2010
Steven---you brought it up. So, don't take my word for it, go to Vote Vet.com, and get the opinion and point of view of veterans who have been out there doing the fighting. And now they are back at home, out of uniform, spending their own money, time and effort still fighting terrorism---telling people the truth about oil.

These are my friends. I see them and talk with them everyday. We are brothers. Veterans of different wars---but still brothers. I trust them and I know they are right. I'm proud to give them my support. Perhaps I have a what you might call a warped and biased point of view. That is because I work for the Veterans Administration and care for those who have sacrificed so much.

Inflammatory effect? LOL. During the presidential campaign of 1948 during a whistle stop speech by Harry Truman----someone shouted out, "Give 'em Hell, Harry!" Truman replied, "I don't give 'em Hell, I just tell the truth on 'em, and they THINK it is Hell."
Comment
18 of 30
May 22, 2010
Steven------" If we want oil all we need to do is buy it."-------

BTW----the wars are not about buying oil. The wars are about who is selling it.

No matter who is selling it----if there is no need for oil, no one will buy it.

We have the technology to replace all of our energy needs with alternative options right now. We have spent $10 Trillion over 9 years in Iraq and Afghanistan alone. If instead, we had spent $10 Trillion to produce and implement biofuels(ethanol, biodiesel and methane)----you wouldn't even be able to GIVE away a barrel of oil today--even if you offered free Yogi Bear and Huckleberry Hound glasses with it.
Comment
19 of 30
May 23, 2010
This will be my last post on this article. It appears Fred and Steven have a good discussion going so my two cents are not needed.

My only closing comment is this - for about the next 5-10 years we will probably need every energy source we can find to meet our needs. After that, I see some form[s] of renewable energy as our future.

It will take all of us working together as a team to come up with the creative ideas we will need to be successful as a nation. If we can not once again become a nation of creative people who do things we might not like the outcome.

I once taught Team Works which is the process of working together to find the best solutions. One of the first things you learn is that there really are no dumb questions or ideas. Every idea, regardless of how silly it may sound or how offensive it might be to someone else may just trigger the creative juices of another team member. I encourage everyone to work together, build on each others ideas for the good of our country and our planet.

Thank you for listening and sharing.

Tom G.
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Comment
20 of 30
Anonymous
May 23, 2010
Fred,
The Sicarii (circa 70 CE) were an early terrorist group--1800 years before oil was of any great interest. In modern times the IRA and the Basque separatists are terrorist groups that are obviously not motivated at all by oil. You notions about oil and terrorism are extremely naive, and you are given to sweeping generalizations even in the face of obvious counter examples. Al Qaeda is not motived by issues involving control of oil--and we are in Afghanistan because they were. If tomorrow we were able to produce biofuels at <$1 a gallon we would still be mired in a struggle against violent extremists. Even something so inconsequential as a doodle from a Danish cartoonist suffices to incite certain factions to murder....
Steven
Comment
21 of 30
May 23, 2010
We aren't fighting the IRA or Basques. That is the point.

Without oil there is no need for us to even have a presence in the Middle East or Central Asia.

If we get out of the Islamic countries, we remove the basis of Al Qaeda's appeal---to get us out of Islamic countries.

Besides---we need to get rid of dependence on oil for many other reasons as well.

------" Even something so inconsequential as a doodle from a Danish cartoonist suffices to incite certain factions to murder...."------

That is not what I would call a good reason for us to go to war.

We have a lot of other reasons to end our dependence on oil as well.

----" If tomorrow we were able to produce biofuels at <$1 a gallon we would still be mired in a struggle against violent extremists."------

I don't think so. I think we'd be removing a basic factor to makes violent extremists in the first place.
Comment
22 of 30
May 24, 2010
Agree Steve with your thesis. I also am a AGW skeptic and have found that my scientific background has helped a lot. As an economist, the cap and tax proposal will "necessarily cause electricity prices to skyrocket". This is a damaging solution to a problem that does not exist. Not only is a double dip recession possible but a full on depression may be on tap if this is passed.

As for the war comments, most are spoken out of ignorance. I also carried an M16A1, the M60, LAW and M203. We had no Eotech or Trijicon sights back then.

And I want to be off grid too, and have $22K for a SolarPower 8Kw system, as well as a SolaHart hotwater and a few SolaTube lights. I also have a rain catchment system. But solar is expensive and I'll need another $44k to complete my system. Electricity here is already at $0.50/Kwh and gas is $3.95 reg, $4.10 premium, $4.55 diesel.
Comment
23 of 30
May 24, 2010
Wesley I don't know where you live so this will probably not do you any good. Here are some companies who sell solar PV kits for reasonable prices [and there are many more] but I have never purchased from any of them.

http://dmsolar.com/
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html
http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/systems/grid-tie/
http://sunelec.com/

Have you considered getting together with several of your neighbors and buying a full container of solar panels? You might be surprised to learn that you need a lot less than $44k.

Tom G.
Comment
24 of 30
May 26, 2010
Thanks Tomgarven....I'm in the rainforest in Kona, Hawaii at the 1900ft elevation, I don't have a lot of neighbors up here. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. Wes
Comment
25 of 30
May 26, 2010
Wesley:

My son lives on Kauai near Hanapepe - small world. If you are lucky enough to be on the side of the island with trade winds you might want to look at this website.

http://www.windenergy.com/index_wind.htm

Have a great day
tomgarven@hotmail.com
Comment
26 of 30
May 27, 2010
This moved a long way from cap and trade, however don't worry about it the EPA will invoke mandates that will force (add emphasis)clean energy to become attractive in spite of climate change. I agree that we need some common sense in DC more so now than ever before, Americans don't need any more costly bills jammed down our throats.
Comment
27 of 30
May 27, 2010
Hi Mitch3:

You are right - near the end of this article we have got off subject. I usually try and keep on subject until almost everyone else is finished posting. Usually there are only about 2 or 3 individuals at that point in time posting.

If you read the first 20 comments you can easily tell what "the people" think about Cap & Trade/Tax. There are so many alternatives to Cap & Trade/Tax that could make a significant difference I believe we should be doing what a lot of people call 'picking the low hanging fruit' first.

What do you think?

Tom G.
Comment
28 of 30
May 27, 2010
Many of the replys speak to the real problem. Lot's of often poor, biased information and little agreement on solutions. Government has rarely if ever been a solution to much of anything! Politics and $ seems to trump real solutions.

As to Cap and trade. If you look under the sheets, it's all about Economic Equalization.

Tim C.
Comment
29 of 30
May 29, 2010
"How much oil is an Afghanistan? (Ans.: nearly none)"

I wonder why Chevron spent so much effort romancing the Taliban?
google "Chevron Taliban"
Comment
30 of 30
June 14, 2010
I have been a registered Democrat all my life until moving back to Oregon and am now an Independent. I voted for Gordon Smith because I'm convinced he's a moderate that works well with both major parties, including our Democratic senator.
The "tidal wave" of Obama hurt Smith's chances, no doubt. I join others in thanking Senator Smith. No one is perfect; but Smith at least wasn't a right-wing ultra-conservative. Americans wanting "change" have been duped to thinking all incumbents are bad. Way too simplistic...and a shame.
Nitric Oxide Supplements
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Clint Wilder

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About: Clint Wilder is contributing editor at Clean Edge, a research and strategy firm in the San Francisco Bay Area and Portland, Oregon, focused on the business of r... more »

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