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Expectations Remain Low for Copenhagen

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22 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 22
December 2, 2009
If energy companies, governments and banks believe that anthropogenic carbon dioxide causes global warming, why don't they send their purified CO2 to agricultural and biofuel industries?

Please send your compressed CO2 in barrels made of aluminum, steel or recyclable polymer to Detroit in the shape of aerodynamic minivans such as the Ford Galaxy.

If you include a good turbo-diesel engine with each of these CO2 barrels, we might forgive your massive debts.

Thank you,

JPChance
Comment
2 of 22
December 4, 2009
Has the time come to take discussion of geoengineering "out of the closet?" A true reading of the IPCC report includes major uncertainty as to the magnitude of climate change and the time frame of potential disasters. Study of geoengineering has been called for to create the needed knowledge base for deployment and governance rules to decide upon deployment by the Royal Society, the American Meteorological Society and the National Academy of Sciences under its congressionally mandated program America's Climate Choices (final reports in early 2010). In additional the House of Representative Science and Technology Committee held the first of a series of hearings on geoengineering in November at which prominent scientists called for study. Write to me for links to these reports/videos to read/hear of these calls for study Somarl@msn.com
The IPCC and the environmental community will not talk about geoengineering with the public out of fear that if a short term fix were available, the public would continue to "pollute."
This is not without validity. But think of the other side of the coin. If we know of a fix for disaster and do not move to discuss and implement it, are we not morally responsible for the death and destruction?
If this were a medical emergency and we knew of a vaccine, would we not be telling the public that a vaccine is coming?
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Comment
3 of 22
Anonymous
December 4, 2009
Bob, We all need to review what's been going on with Climategate and here in Massachusetts . If you ask the average person today if they believe in renewable energy the answer today is everything is a scam as it is in Massachusetts with former state rep Mark howland and his wind turbine business, the Massachusetts Technology Colaborative with boutique bank accounts changing its name for the third time in eight years and a governor who is tripping out handing cash out to Evergreen Solar .

Gov Patrick will soon be in a position to be the ruler of Climategate .Climategate is the place where people are taught backwards math to fool the public!
 The governor has a plan to get a certain amount of renewable energy by 2010 no matter how much it costs taxpayers . Every renewable plan the governor has had failed or the money is missing .
 
The latest is that Gov Patrick held back federal stimulus funds from cities and towns until he got a promise from your local politicians that they would vote for the Massachusetts Wind Energy Siting Reform  Act . The governor has kept local fire and police departments without adequate funding in order to get the votes from the legislature this week .The funds are being given out to cities and towns this week as the legislature is about to pass the proposed Wind Energy Siting Reform Act .
 
The Wind Energy Siting Reform Act will strip local control over the siting of industrial wind power plants and associated roads and transmission lines. Under this Act, the state Energy Facilities Siting Board will have the power to forever alter the character and prosperity of our communities. The health of our environment and economy depend upon local control, and we  oppose any effort by the state to override our community rights.  
The beneficiaries of the Massachusetts Wind Energy Siting Reform Act  are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, includi
Comment
4 of 22
December 4, 2009
I think that it's time we step back and re-evaluate the whole issue of man-made global warming. Recent revelations of fabricated and manipulated data demand that we act on actual science as opposed to the wishes of the world-wide socialist movement.

It is important to reduce pollution and it is important to do so by reducing unlimited emissions from fossil fuels. However, to do it by damaging the economies of developed nations in favor of undeveloped nations is wrong, especially when done under the guise of a scam.

Al Gore has already cancelled a speech at Copenhagen - the rest of the conference needs to be cancelled until the truth is known.
Comment
5 of 22
December 4, 2009
I am saddened at the comments on this thread. Forget climate change and think common sense! We have to make changes in energy generation, distribution, and conservation. Do we want to be eternally dependent on fossil fuels? The bad thing about non-renewable energy is that it RUNS OUT! I think the timing of this "global warming is a hoax and we will show the proof" media attn was and is being ignited by the coal and oil industry. Do you think that it is a coincidence when real change was planning to take effect? Come on folks! What is wrong with clean energy? It can create jobs and make our world a cleaner and more efficient place. We cannot replace fossil fuels 100% with clean energy resources, but we can at least try for 20% right? I can't believe that the positive shift of actual energy independence is being halted by naysayers and "we have to get to the bottom of Climategate" talk. Climategate has been created by those that have the power and money generated from fossil fuels, my friends. Let's say climate change is not happening, do we still go on using fossil fuels until all resources have run out, continuing wars, playing friends with the Saudis so we get our oil fix, continue building coal plants, etc? We are smarter than this people! Change is hard to do but innovation is what recharges the economy not doing the same thing in different ways, getting the same result!
Comment
6 of 22
December 4, 2009
We actually agree, geologic2, except for your conspiracy theory about the coal and oil industry. My point is that the plan of the UN, IPCC, and Copenhagen is a one-world government with a massive transfer of wealth and destruction of the industrialized world, using the fear tactic of climate change as a vehicle.

We need to get past the conspiracies of how the files were hacked and who might be behind it, and deal with the science - which has obviously been fabricated.
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Comment
7 of 22
Anonymous
December 4, 2009
GEOENGINEERING, the frankNstein of the renewable's movement, is becoming more of a specter; and less a solution, as the voices of engineering solutions to climate change become more strident and vocal and blend with those screaming for GREEN JOBS.

..then there is CLIMATEGATE!

The ugly truth is now pouring out of emails and other hidden corners and hubris is flying everywhere; whether Gore's leaving 2,000 prepaid--at $1,208 each people gasping in Copenhagen; or the turmoil at PSU's climate science center; or the Guardian's revelation that the 'HOCKEY STICK' is a fiction; or Charlie Crist's near about face on Climate change or financial analysts connecting proponents with their interest in carbon trading schemes, or.....

Your marketing engine is unfortunately tied to the Global warming hysteria driven by these 'exaggerations' and fabricated warnings by unethical scientists; it's not business as usual because an increasingly skeptical polity is starting to challenge and halt major alt. energy investments.
Comment
8 of 22
December 4, 2009
I have to say that if people truly think that the oil and coal industries are not involved in debunking these climate change scientists, then naivety is alive and well. I am not buying that this is a coincidental move, and who is to say that the scientists that are debunking climate change are right either in their "predictions"? I think there is solid evidence of global warming (outside of Al Gore's Inconv Truth), but more info of course is needed, as earth patterns continue to shift and change. However, do we sit back and continue with the same energy policy? Energy independence and conservation should be a goal of every nation, and it seems that as we get closer to this goal more people come out with complaints and arguments on why we shouldn't target this goal. How long do we wait? Change in energy policy will not happen overnight, we have been fighting this battle for decades! Do we miss our chance now, and if we get a Repub in office, forget it! As far as the marketing engine being tied to global warming, well you are right in this regard. Unfortunately, so many people (in the need for energy policy change) jumped on this bandwagon, but again, I don't see why we cannot continue to target a goal of 20% for renewables despite the science. It just makes sense! Energy conservation saves money! As far as green jobs go, I know of several people laid off (from the construction industry) that have started "green" companies and are doing ok, not great, but they are employed. It doesn't matter, because renewable energy enthusiasts and innovators will not give up because they believe that renewable energy is a solid solution.
Comment
9 of 22
December 4, 2009
"I think there is solid evidence of global warming"

There is global warming - it is cyclical due to the activity of the sun. There is global cooling also.

Here is where we disagree. Global warming is NOT due to the activity of man. We know the data which is used to make that claim has been compromised and manipulated. How is it "solid" any more?

Also, the warming is based on estimates of temperatures from hundreds and thousands of years ago - but there is no factual data to base those estimates on! The measurements were not taken - they were extrapolated from ice core samples which are no more accurate than tree rings.

As for green jobs - Spain lost 2.2 jobs for every green job created - it's not worth it!

Yes, we need to move to renewables, but we don't need a one-world socialist government to do it. We need to delay any action on a world-wide treaty until we get the socialist US president out of office - otherwise he'll give away the US.
Comment
10 of 22
December 4, 2009
Sure, Paul,
We must support the status quo of profiteering fossil fuel economies until the profit powered corporations and thus government gets its due in payoffs.

Even if the global warming is unprovable to some ostriches, the economies of energy from current sunshine make the old ways seem not only foolish, but awfully stupid to continue. Since we now have the very proven technology to implement current sunshine for energy, it is only the inertia of profit centers in unmoving disregard that resist it. The lack of moral disipline to accept new and workable ways is weakness at best, outright destruction of life as we think we know it at worse. Capitolism is not a moral discipline, but a political way of treating wealth, and not a per capita fair one. It cannot ensure the well being of the planet or the people on it when the resources that it absorbed are begining to dwindle.

If we are unwilling to see the big picture of our life support systems we will perish with the micro mind we embrace.
Comment
11 of 22
December 4, 2009
Phil - how's that Kool-Aide?

What is foolish is to spend 10-20 times as much for something than what it is currently sold for, that being solar generated electricity vs. nuclear/coal/gas generated electricity.

Global warming is provable, but it is caused by changes in the sun's activity, Mr. Ostrich. The narrow-minded fools that blame it on mans activity and disregard the facts are the ostriches.

Capitalism IS fair - those that work and create and innovate reap the rewards, not those that are too lazy to earn a living.

The "micro mind" you espouse has another name: communism - if that's what you want, feel free to move to a communist country.
Comment
12 of 22
December 4, 2009
I never mentioned electricity. But on that subject, cheap power is the real bug in your druthers, isn't it? You believe it should always be so, because it was. Expecting a different outcome from adjusting the same destructive inputs is one step from a real meltdown in my humble opinion.

My point is that even if global warming is caused by someones hot air, certain renewable technologies are now economically viable, even tho one may need to change their methods of exercizing testosterone levels.

Solar water heating works well and profitably right now. Heating consumes over half the energy in this country. There are no capitol masses in it to push the money machine to the politicians. If you believe that the only answer to rampant capitolism is communism you may yet expand your horizons.

Too bad I hit a nerve. Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable. That is what truth sometimes does. No one can take away your ability to change your mind.
The prison of ones thots, especially when imposed on others, is a fearful master indeed.

Questions; If you accept global warming is provable, why is it not acceptable that it could be caused by mans activities? Have you seen the earth satelite pics of the thinness of the earths atmosphere? Can we afford to take chances with our future for the profits of a few at the cost of the generation yet unborn? Are you personally threatened by change? Do you like your flavor of kool-aid?
Comment
13 of 22
December 5, 2009
This problem is a simple economic one.
Non-renewable/renewable and the inter-generational cost factor of energy.
Ricardo and others identified this omission from early economic analysis during the 1920s and the argument continues.
The most relevant example of significance would be the metal-backed currency-flow problems during industrialization over a hundred years ago. No matter how a nation's GNP fared that nation only possessed so much gold-so a built-in controlled crisis was manipulated by certain central banks until post WW I when greenbacks without redemption were ascendant.
We now have a similar energy backed currency paradigm and non-renewables stand in the way of the non-renewable economies dominant position.
Further failures to price-in the costs of toxins contributes to the health of humans also factors in the deficiencies of an unregulated market-place.
The meta or holistic apparatus to defeat predatory capital is available now as never before-let us hope that the free market that powers the world can be un-bridled again, soon.
Renewable toxic informed economies would free civilization to new heights.
Comment
14 of 22
December 7, 2009
(from Phil) "Questions; If you accept global warming is provable, why is it not acceptable that it could be caused by mans activities?"

It is not acceptable when the choices are limited.

In all the (manipulated) data used to substantiate global warming claims, there is no consideration given to the single largest source of heat on the planet (the sun). 'They' show charts and graphs of temperatures, CO2 and other gasses from the last 2000 years (which are estimates, because no mearsurements were taken over 100 years ago).

If the science were to be accurate and truthful, graphs of the sun's activity would be included and compared. However, there is no data and no one has bothered to make up any, so the analysis is incomplete.

Phil seems to have a problem with capitalism, the single largest positive source of personal freedom and resistance to aggression in history. Were the communists able to stop the nazis? No, it was the capitalists. Where the muslims able to stop the fanatics in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.? No, it was the capitalists. Is capitalism perfect? No, but there is nothing better.

As in the global warming/climate change debate, you have to look at the big picture for an accurate assessment.
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Comment
15 of 22
Anonymous
December 7, 2009
Al Gore should lose his Oscar as a result of Climategate, two Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences members say. Roger L. Simon and Lionel Chetwynd, two right-wing (who knew?) Academy members, want Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" Oscar rescinded after allegations that British scientists with the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit falsified data to support claims of global warming. Gore's anti-global warming flick won Best Documentary at the 79th Academy Awards .
Comment
16 of 22
December 9, 2009
While I have been in favor of a replacement for coal since the 1970's,
I do not expect much from Copenhagen. The cap and trade Entrepreneurs
seem to be well on their way to making money on carbon at the very moment that Climategate has brought the whole basis of the AGW movement into question. I am also concerned with the advertising product and religious dogma that it seems to have become.

Today Reuters had a story stating that our present unemployment had actually pushed our CO2 levels half way to a goal set by . . .I failed to discover who, but the obvious answer to going all the way would be to
put a total of 50 million people in the US on unemployment.

While I have supported renewables for a long time, this unemployment problem is far more important in the short run, and needs to be addressed before the cap and traders make their first millions.
Comment
17 of 22
December 14, 2009
Paul T--------"Phil seems to have a problem with capitalism, the single largest positive source of personal freedom and resistance to aggression in history."------

That is highly debatable. The only reason we have any buffalo left in the US today is because they were imported from Canada.. Everywhere you look in US history, you will find examples greed, human oppression and bondage, natural resources plundered and stolen in the name of capitalism. Slavery. Oppression, theft and genocide of the Native Americans. Economic, ethnic and religious oppression of workers from the Industrial Revolution until the 1960s.

-------"Were the communists able to stop the nazis?"--------

Yes, at St. Petersburg(then Leningrad)---Moscow, and Volgagrad(then Stalingrad) The surrender of Generalfeldmarschal Paulus on 30 Jan 1943 with the German 6th Army of nearly 100,000 men and all of their equipment marked what is generally considered the turning point of the war. Losses at Stalingrad cut the strength of the Luftwaffe by 1/2.

--------"No, it was the capitalists"--------

Wrong. It was support from wealthy industrial capitalists that brought the fascists(Nazi party) into power in the first place. They feared the rising popularity and influence of the communists because of their abuses of power and economic turmoil of 1920s Germany. Adolf Hitler offered them an iron fist to fight the rising political power of labor unions and communist sentiment among workers. This was the reason for the invasion of Russia, it was a political not a military decision.

--------"Where the muslims able to stop the fanatics in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.? No, it was the capitalists"---------

I would question whether fanatics have been stopped anywhere. It would appear to me that the fanatics are a tool. The only people who have benefited seem to be capitalists.

----"Is capitalism perfect? No,"---

That's true.
Comment
18 of 22
December 14, 2009
fred, you red...
You pick and choose the points you want to, but you don't answer any complete questions or points.
Did the commies rebuild Europe after WW2? Nope, it was the capitalist US.
The fanatics were stopped in Kuwait - it is not a part of Iraq - thanks to the capitalists of the US, Canada, Australia and European nations.
Capitalism is not perfect and you agree. But can you offer an alternative? Apparently not... like so many 'protestors' - you can whine, complain and protest but you offer no alternatives or solutions. All you produce is noise and CO2...
Comment
19 of 22
December 14, 2009
--------"fred, you red..."--------

He's a poet and didn't know it.(LOL)

-----"Did the commies rebuild Europe after WW2? Nope, it was the capitalist US."---------

The Marshall Plan was a product of political expediency, not of any great charitable outpouring on the part of Capitalists----they were major opponents of the plan.

-------"The fanatics were stopped in Kuwait - it is not a part of Iraq - thanks to the capitalists of the US, Canada, Australia and European nations."--------

The Iraq war was simply a continuation of the Kuwait war. Both wars were about oil. If it were not for the lucrative profits from the oil trade and weapons manufacturing and supply---no capitalist would have given a hoot about Kuwait, Iraq, or Afghanistan. The war in Afghanistan is about securing an overland pipeline route from central Asia to the Bay of Bengal, and securing control of the drug trade. The only interest capitalists have in freedom is their own. The only interest that capitalists have in prosperity is their own.

-------"Capitalism is not perfect and you agree."------

Capitalism and Communism are both simply labels attached to opposing economic models. Neither one is perfect. Nor should either one be considered to be.

-----" But can you offer an alternative?"---------

I never intended to----I am simply analyzing history in terms of facts, not propaganda. You can not analyze a problem without facts. My analysis of our war experience in Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan is that our dependence on petroleum, and its increasing cost not only in $$$ but also in other costs is causing economic ruin to the for the US. In the same week as the announcement that pipeline construction is starting, we send and additional 30,000 "troop surge" to Afghanistan---you do not need to send reinforcements to wars that have already been won.

(continued)
Comment
20 of 22
December 14, 2009
-------"Apparently not... like so many 'protestors' - you can whine, complain and protest but you offer no alternatives or solutions. All you produce is noise and CO2..."---------

My solution is very simple. Remove the dependency on oil and the geopolitical instability it causes. If we are not dependent on oil to supply our energy needs there is no need for the US to be in the Middle East or Central Asia. If we aren't there, fanatics can't shoot at us, or bomb us.

We can easily replace petroleum with natural gas and biofuels. It will cost us far less than trying to support the spending war spending into the indefinite future, to secure corporate profits for a small minority of individuals.

The fact that replacing oil dependence with natural gas and biofuels would at the same time, also pretty much take care of our environmental problems is just icing on the cake. I like icing.
Comment
21 of 22
December 14, 2009
Yeah, that is simple... in theory. It would take a totalitarian government to make it happen - and that won't happen in the US.

It also doesn't make the fanatics go away. If we don't fight them where they are, they will come here and attack us - that is their sworn mission. It is far better to fight on their territory with a trained military than to fight them here with ill-equipped civilians - even a simpleton would acknowledge that with a modicum of rational thought.

Got any realistic solutions?
Comment
22 of 22
December 14, 2009
--------"Got any realistic solutions?"------------

Fiat Siena Tetrafuel:

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/08/28/fiat-siena-tetrafuel-can-run-on-four-fuel-types/

In manufacture and on sale now, and selling at over 3X the projected market sales.

Honda Civic GX:

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

Being manufactured right now in Honda's Indiana plant.
---"Advanced Technology Partial-Zero-Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV)[3]"-----
Refillable from a home utility natural gas hook up with an accessory compressor called "Phill"

VW Passat TSI Ecofuel:

http://green.autoblog.com/2008/02/28/geneva-08-preview-volkswagen-passat-variant-tsi-ecofuel/

The Golf also comes in a bi-fuel CNG version. The new Jetta TDI clean diesel will be coming out in a bi-fuel CNG version soon.

------"It also doesn't make the fanatics go away. If we don't fight them where they are, they will come here and attack us - that is their sworn mission. It is far better to fight on their territory with a trained military than to fight them here with ill-equipped civilians - even a simpleton would acknowledge that with a modicum of rational thought."--------

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is exactly the same thing they told us about the Viet Cong in Viet Nam. If we don't defeat them here, they will be swarming into Kansas. Well, I got back, Viet Nam fell, and I never did see any Viet Cong swarming into Kansas.
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Robert Lahey

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About: Robert Lahey is the Senior Legislative Analyst at Ardour Capital Investments LLC. He holds a BBA from George Washington University, a JD from New York Law Schoo... more »

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