NHA Report Says Hydrogen Vehicles Will Drive Change

I'm always suspicious of reports produced by those who have a vested interest in the findings of the report, this one seems to support my suspicions.
I also once thought H2 was the ideal fuel until I did the numbers.
For example the report states "a fuel cell is at least twice as efficient as an internal combustion engine"
Not necessarily true, it depends on how you measure efficiency and the above does not consider the other system losses RE (renewable energy) source to tank and HFC output to wheels.
For example; "The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine is the most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today" " At maximum economy the engine exceeds 50% thermal efficiency". (http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/)
The maximum efficiency for a hydrogen fuel cell at 25ºC is 83%, this decreases with temperature, and is 79% at 100ºC. Maximum real world efficiencies are probably about 60%. The electricity now has to drive the wheels with about 20% conversion losses so H2 tank to wheel losses are about 80% x 60% ~ 48%. Now add H2 generation efficiencies (<90%), compression &storage (<90%) and transport losses (20%+) and the well (solar cell etc.) to wheel efficiency is probably closer to about 30%, not hugely better than a modern diesel car and probably worse than a hybrid, the only + is that H2 is probably easier to make from renewable energy sources.
Now consider a BEV, battery to wheel 80% (as per HFCV) and well (solar cell) to battery ~90% over all efficiency 72%, more than twice that the of a HFCV. Why convert electricity to H2 then H2 back to electricity.
The other important point is; where is all the RE coming from. HFCV will require more than twice as much RE (clean) resources as batteries and will take about twice as long to build, let alone the resources and I think almost every one no agrees that 'time is of the essence'.

Actually, it is true that a fuel cell is 2-3 times more efficient than a gasoline engine. But instead of hypothesizing on parts of a vehicle, let's look at the whole thing, well to wheels. And let's use some real ones (like this NHA report did) from a manufacturer that's actually making these different alternative vehicles (this is from the SAE World Congress two weeks ago):

"Justin Ward said that Toyota sees market opportunity for small EVs, but that according to Toyota's latest calculations, the fuel cell hybrid vehicle has the advantage in well-to-wheel efficiency even now.

With natural gas as the feedstock for hydrogen and power generation, Toyota currently calculates 40% WTW efficiency for a fuel cell vehicle; 33% for an EV; 34% for a hybrid (Prius); and 19% for an internal combustion engine.

We feel that there is a place for EVs in the future, but what is that place? It's pretty challenging for a full-range larger vehicle. We do see a market for the smaller, shorter range EVs. The key is to make sure your grid is clean. We don't talk much about it these days, but we are still working very, very strongly on fuel cell technology. —Justin Ward

This view of the future vehicle technology mix—with EV applications likely targeting shorter-range, smaller vehicles and fuel cell vehicle technology applied to larger, long-range vehicles—was reinforced in a subsequent session moderated by GM (Larry Nitz, Executive Director, GM Powertrain) and including engineering executives from Ford (Sharif Marakby, Chief Engineer, Global Hybrid Core Engineering), Daimler (Neil Armstrong, Director, Hybrid Systems & Components), Honda (Kenji Nakano, Senior Chief Engineer, Honda R&D) and Bosch (Joseph Slenzak, Hybrid-EV Business Development), as well as Ward from Toyota."

They are making a case for government handouts. Toyota didn't feel compelled to write books to try to sway people to support their hybrid idea. They built the thing and marketed it. If I could walk onto a lot and buy a fuel cell car for a competitive price and find fuel for it, I might be tempted to get one. What are the odds of that happening in the next decade or two?

This has nothing at all to do with the car itself which is just an electric car using energy stored in a tank instead of a battery. This is about infrastructure costs and resources. Natural gas is not renewable. It is the lowest carbon source of fossil fuel available. It will be needed to replace coal fired power plants to produce base load to supplement renewable electricity until renewable no longer needs base load. When you look at the energy flow for renewable energy to make hydrogen you see why the whole hydrogen transport system is built on a house of cards:

http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/photo/hydrogen1.gif

Russ Finley, I certainly agree

Your diagram (courtesy 'Prof. Ulf Bossel - fuelcell expert', I believe) highlights the HFCV flaw, the boxes can be juggled a bit, i.e. make H2 at 'gas' station instead of transporting it, fuel cell efficiency might be pushed to 60% and I think electrolysis efficiency has improved a bit with the use of catalysts etc. but even with all this taken into account you still need twice as much RE electricity to start with compared to BEV implementation, as I said before; why convert electricity to H2 then H2 back to electricity, an argument which is even more applicable to HFC-trains which are being developed, why?.

On the supply side, twice as much RE electricity requires twice as much resources and time to build it and time is probably the one ingredient we are particularly short of.

I also believe that based on current developments batteries have got a lot more scope for improvement, particularly compared to HFCs, my guess is that in 10 years battery capacity will more than double and their cost will be significantly lower, I doubt if similar improvements will be achieved for fuelcells.

Every well-to-wheels report shows that fuel cells and battery electric vehicles are similar in their energy use and environmental benefits. The exact efficiency and GHG numbers change depending on how you make the fuel (electricity or hydrogen.) An important point is that, unlike today's fuels, there are many ways to make H2 and electricity. Some more efficient than others, some greener than others. The choice of pathways is crucial to sustainable fuel that every region of the world can produce for itself.

As important--if not more important--is building cars, trucks and SUVs that people want to buy, own and drive. Fuel is a non-issue if it forces people to choose between comfort, convenience, performance and reliability. No spreadsheet or modeling program contains a column or field for "human nature."

I believe we'll see battery electric and fuel cell electric vehicles come to market at about the same time. Once a few thousand of each type of technology are in the hands of real people who commute, run errands, take pleasure drives and use their cars for work, we'll know what people will and will not accept, and how the fuel will impact business and society.

Liz
For the record there is a production BEV on the market with 'real' car performance, the Tesla Roadster, albeit at a price, and others not far behind, check out BYD Auto. I haven't seen any sign of comercial / production HFCVs on the market yet, with the possible exception of busses, and I think these are still probably in the experimental phase.

Liz, you're right on target. So many of these efficiency arguments are moot if you can't create a vehicle people will buy (despite the fact that I disagree with a lot of the numbers). You need to be able to create a full-range car that will carry a family. Smaller cars have a role for some people and maybe BEVs will be good for that--we'll see. But for the majority of people, you need something in addition to the batteries alone--like batteries + hydrogen.

Nick, you ask "why convert electricity to H2 then H2 back to electricity?" And the answer is the same. Because it gives you flexibility and it allows you to build a car more people will buy. Technology is no good unless people can use it. Yeah, the Tesla's for sale. That's great and I hope it's successful. But I and many other people will need a car that carries more than two people and can carry more than one days-worth of groceries. You need more than batteries alone.

Hydrogen offers flexibility and products you can't match with other technologies. So we need to keep that door open and the development needs to continue for hydrogen and fuel cells. This shouldn't be a matter of batteries OR hydrogen. It's batteries AND hydrogen.

In an interview with the German car magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" on January 28, 2009 Daimler's CEO, Dieter Zetsche announced the start of small series production of fuel cell cars from the middle of 2009. Daimler is looking to reach annual production numbers of 100.000 vehicles in four to five years at a cost comparable, to Bluetec hybride cars, that only recently seemed a pipe dream according to Mr. Zetsche.

http://www.h2euro.org/newsletter-january-2009
America's approach to the transformational challenge of Peak Oil has resembled nothing so much as a Keystone Kops two-reeler. Not since Jimmy Carter has an administration demonstrated a commitment commensurate to the challenge, perhaps because President Carter was sent packing back to Georgia with his cardigans after an attempt to rouse Americans from their blissful dreams of a future where Exxon and Mobil would ensure that no one would have to line up for gasoline ever again.
Thirty years later, we are just one Category Four hurricane in the wrong place or a Strait of Hormuz terrorist attack away from waiting in long lines to buy fuel we can no longer afford for the SUVs we no longer love. Recent events in Nashville suggest that even imagined shortages will have the same results. We need a rational approach to energy transition, and nothing exemplifies the lack of a comprehensive energy policy as much as the magical-time-machine thinking involved in the promise of a "hydrogen future."

To appreciate this policy void, we have to clearly understand where we are right now. Cheap and plentiful petroleum has defined almost every aspect of our modern economy: from automobile-dependent McMansion suburbs, to mega-box retailing of cheap Asian consumer goods, to petrochemical-based agriculture, we are addicted to the concept of a single energy source.
For the last century that single energy source has been petroleum-light, sweet, cheap crude oil. Hydrogen offers the hope of a single vehicle energy source, whi

which is a key element of its appeal. The reality is that we are faced with a transition to a multi-source energy future.

The real problem in transitioning to a new comprehensive energy system is a power source for individual transportation. Electricity generation has many options, including coal (cleaner-we hope), natural gas, hydropower, nuclear energy, and, increasingly, renewable sources such as wind and solar. In the case of transportation, the options for replacing gasoline and diesel fuel are severely limited. Electric vehicles have a limited range. Liquid fuels can be produced from coal although the investment cost is high and this approach generates significant carbon dioxide emissions.
Plant-derived liquid fuels such as ethanol and bio-diesel can be domestically produced and offer the benefit of being carbon neutral when consumed, yet what is less clear is the total cost and carbon balance when fossil fuels are used in farming, transportation, and processing these "clean" bio-fuels. In addition, the diversion of food crops such as corn and soy beans to fuel production impacts the world food supply and may lead to political unrest.

Gaseous fuels, mainly natural gas and hydrogen, are also candidates for transportation fuels. Natural gas and hydrogen may be stored in a vehicle as cryogenic liquids or as high pressure gasses. The complexity and energy cost of cryogenic liquids has made them unpopular in transportation applications, so high pressure storage has been the choice.
High pressure storage requires a heavy, expensive container and does not provide much driving range. Despite this, high pressure hydrogen fuelling stations are being built, and California has plans for a Hydrogen Highway that will run the length of the state.

Now that America is awakening to the prospect that our energy system is under fire and possibly nearing collapse, hydrogen is being promoted as the magic bullet. It's the clean, carbon-free answer to the question, "W

I love my old Holden car and it has been a faithful servant never letting me down, however I can't help thinking in this electronic age there must be a better and cleaner way to power our vehicles.
We will see a transition from combustion to EV's and the big question is How will we produce/store the electrons to power the motor/motors?
Batteries can do the job but have a limited range nothing is worse than being stuck in the middle of nowhere with a flat battery!
The answer to this problem is to produce electrons on demand using hydrogen as a feedstock and a fuel cell to power the electric motors.
I think all people who favour electronic vehicles as the answer to our pollution problems should be united.
Let us start producing vehicles that can be converted from battery to fuel cell
or a combination of both along with energy recovery devices and we will be heading in the right direction.
We are living in exciting times akin to when horse give way to combustion as our preferred mode of personal transport.
Hydrogen is a wonderful element and we will all rejoice in the day when it becomes our main stream energy carrier.
Our remaining crude oil will be the feedstock for old and new products in the plastic industry and will always be a valuable commodity but gone are the days when we burnt it in a combustion engine destroying our lungs and poisoning our precious planet.
Mike H. founder HYDROGENHEADS

Fallacy of energy efficiency argument against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by plug-in battery advocates

http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/fallacy-of-energy-efficiency-argument-against-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-plug-in-battery-advocates/

Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
"Hydrogen Car Revolution" blog