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The German Perspective, Part 1: Difficulties in Climate Negotiations

By Stephen Lacey, Staff Writer
January 6, 2009   |   12 Comments

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"What we see from our modeling results is that mitigation of climate change, this is possible...The models show that this is technically feasible — and perhaps more important — also economically feasible."

-- Dr. Brigitte Knopf, Researcher, Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research
12 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 12
January 7, 2009
Apparently German Climate engineers have been successful!

Europe is having another cold winter; evidence of how they've reversed global warming by exceeding the KYOTO emissions goals.

As someone who lives in one of the colder regions of the U.S.- Northern New England(MAINE); I'm looking forward to learning how we can restore colder weather to our area, and once again reduce bio-mass growth rates; restore flu and other cold weather health hazards; and further deteriorate our roads and bridges with snow melt, reducing highway speeds and in turn the use of fossil fuels.

There are many other possible benefits of a colder climate; most often found in Stephen King's writings.
Comment
2 of 12
January 7, 2009
There is evidence that the world climate change has leveled out since 1999 and the world climate actually cooled in 2008. What does this mean? What it means is the climate models being used to predict future world climate change are inaccurate enough to make the conclusions drawn from them questionable. Many scientists are quietly expressing doubts that climate change is man caused. To even question the man made global warming theory can result in scientists losing funding for their projects, and being ostracized similar to what happens to the UFO crowd. Man made global warming has become politically correct and will go down as one of the greatest hoaxes in history. It is likely that within the next 20 years the politically correct crowd will be using global cooling to try to raise your taxes. Climate change is caused by fluctuations in solar radiation. This is undeniable. Climate has been warming since the ice ages, but not in a linear fashion. It is cyclical.
Climate will always be changing and we have to adapt to it to survive.
Comment
3 of 12
January 7, 2009
john harlan stated "Climate change is caused by fluctuations in solar radiation. " This has become a popular position among those ignorant of climate science, as it relieves the need to change energy habits. Of course this is a major driver of climate, and if it changes significantly then climate will change significantly. It might behoove these ludites to actually check the data on solar variability over the last hundred years or so, it has been directly measured. The variation in solar output is small, and cannot account for the last century of warming. A very nice article in Physics today refutes this hypothesis quite definitively. You will notice that the knee-jerk believers of this silly opinion never reference referreed journals or other reputable venues of climate science. Jim Hansen and others have identified a dozen or so major drives, solar output being one. It cannot account for measured changes alone, but all factors together do. Greenhouse gas is the dominant forcing function driving current change.

Another popular opinion amongst climate-change naysayers is that the whole thing is a "hoax", a "politically correct position". Sure, thousands of scientists have secretly agreed to lie and deceive about their science, toss out integrity, and risk their reputations for some hoax? Right. Such stupidity abounds in our country, witness the continuing denial of evolution. To assert that changing the energy balance of the earth by ~5 W/m2 by greenhouse gas addition can have no effect is nihilism at its best. Yes, there is a science of climate change, albeit with many, many questions. The basics of radiation transport, energy balances, and greenhouses gas contributions are clear, and denying these realities is indicate of serious mental defect.
Comment
4 of 12
January 7, 2009
Nice Slap at us skeptics Jay; there are thousands of us now, most with extensive climate change backgrounds--like mine in the air pollution regulation biz; but there is an abundance of evidence from Canadian, Russian, Swiss, and Japanese scientists on the impact of solar radiation on earth's climate and weather.

Your ignorance reveals your bias when you say the 'variation in solar output is small'...uh, it doesn't take much variation to produce a large change in our weather.

I suggest you stop reading selectively and start reading objectively. You might just learn why Maine had the worse winter in history last year, and why Canada was 'white' edge to edge at the start of winter for the first time in recorded history. ...and those polar bears really aren't endangered but lurking by the thousands around Hudson's bay town dumps where they are regarded as pests and tourist attractions.

Enjoy your kool-aid; even if is frozen; just don't go diss'ng our views without understanding the science behind them!
Comment
5 of 12
January 8, 2009
Hi weather observer,

Can you post some links or site some references for those of us who read a little more objectively.

Thanks,

Paul
Comment
6 of 12
January 8, 2009
Next, let's take a look CO2 from an Atmospheric Physicist's view - straightforward physics that we hope most of you will be able to follow:

What we commonly call "light" is actually electromagnetic radiation, physically no different from radio waves, except of different frequencies and wavelengths. The part we can see is called the visible spectrum. Beyond what we can see in the higher frequencies ( and shorter wavelengths, since they are reciprocal functions ) lies the ultraviolet spectrum. UV light is very penetrating, which is why one could get sunburned on an overcast day. Beyond even that are X-rays, which can penetrate much deeper. On the opposite end of the visible spectrum lies infra-red... which you can't see, but you can easily feel, as anyone who has warmed his hands near a hot stove can testify. It is the infrared portion we commonly refer to as "heat" radiation. And beyond that are the radio and television wavelengths we all know and love.

The sun is very "bright", and its frequency spectrum is generally too short to produce much infrared coming down through the atmosphere. Radiation from the sun penetrates the atmosphere, strikes the earth, and some of it is absorbed and some is reflected. The different bandwidths (colors) of reflected light depend on the material struck, so something green-colored is reflecting the green portion of the visible spectrum and absorbing the rest. This heats up the earth, and that's the first part of the story.

All heated bodies emit radiation in the infrared range. This is called "black body" radiation, because a perfectly black body reflects no visible light but still emits radiation in a specified band of wavelengths. Infrared radiation is of a much longer wavelength, and can be much easier absorbed by certain components in the atmosphere, causing them to also "heat up". The warm air around us is being kept warm partially from black body radiation coming from the earth itself.
Comment
7 of 12
January 8, 2009
Has global warming stopped?
David Whitehouse
Published 19 December 2007
'The fact is that the global temperature of 2007 is statistically the same as 2006 and every year since 2001'. Plus read Mark Lynas's response

Global warming stopped? Surely not. What heresy is this? Haven't we been told that the science of global warming is settled beyond doubt and that all that's left to the so-called sceptics is the odd errant glacier that refuses to melt?
Aren't we told that if we don't act now rising temperatures will render most of the surface of the Earth uninhabitable within our lifetimes? But as we digest these apocalyptic comments, read the recent IPCC's Synthesis report that says climate change could become irreversible. Witness the drama at Bali as news emerges that something is not quite right in the global warming camp.
With only few days remaining in 2007, the indications are the global temperature for this year is the same as that for 2006 – there has been no warming over the 12 months.
But is this just a blip in the ever upward trend you may ask? No."

David Whitehosue was BBC Science Correspondent 1988–1998, Science Editor BBC News Online 1998–2006 and the 2004 European Internet Journalist of the Year. He has a doctorate in astrophysics and is the author of The Sun: A Biography (John Wiley, 2005).] His website is www.davidwhitehouse.com
Comment
8 of 12
January 8, 2009
"Let's take a short glance at the equation at the left, because you're never going to see anything like it again in this editorial. To most of you, it is gobbly-gook, but to a physicist, it is part of a mathematical proof accompanying a particular study done on the sun's role in Global Warming. What the authors are explaining is they have found that the total solar irradiance (TSI) has been measured by orbiting satellites since 1978 and it varies on an 11-year cycle by about 0.07%. So, from solar min to solar max, the TSI reaching the earth's surface increases at a rate comparable to the radiative heating due to a 1% per year increase in greenhouse gases, and will probably add, during the next five to six years in the advancing phase of Solar Cycle 24, almost 0.2 °K to the globally-averaged temperature, thus doubling the amount of transient global warming expected from greenhouse warming alone. Whew...."

Solar-Cycle Warming at the Earth's Surface and an Observational Determination of Climate Sensitivity.
By Ka-Kit Tung and Charles D. Camp
Department of Applied Mathematics
University of Washington, Seattle Washington
Comment
9 of 12
January 8, 2009
and yet more:

"n short, the laws of physics don't seem to allow CO2 it's currently assumed place as a significant "greenhouse gas" based on present concentrations. The other "greenhouse gases" such as methane, nitrous oxide, tetrafluoromethane, hexafluoroethane, sulfur hexafluoride, trifluoromethane, 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane, and 1,1-difluoroethane exist only in extraordinarily smaller amounts and aren't even up for serious discussion by any segment of the scientific community. And, since the other components of the atmosphere (oxygen, nitrogen, and water vapor) aren't materially affected by human activity, the "greenhouse effect" is essentially a totally natural phenomenon, unaffected by human activity. We could repeat the spectral analysis and calculations for Oxygen, or O2 ( The percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere remains exactly the same at all heights up to about 85 km, and is about 20.9% by volume ) and Nitrogen (N2) which is the whopper at 78.1% - but we won't. We'll leave that as your homework problem now that you know how to do it. Just look up the atomic absorption spectra for both, and do the math. You'll discover that Oxygen and Nitrogen aren't even "greenhouse gases", so that leaves the principal greenhouse gas... you guessed it.... Water Vapor. Curiously enough, the UN IPCC reports don't even mention water vapor, since it is technically not a "gas" in the atmosphere. Dr. Roy W. Spencer has one of the best comments on this subject:

"Al Gore likes to say that mankind puts 70 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every day. What he probably doesn't know is that mother nature puts 24,000 times that amount of our main greenhouse gas -- water vapor -- into the atmosphere every day, and removes about the same amount every day. While this does not 'prove' that global warming is not manmade, it shows that weather systems have by far the greatest control over the Earth's greenhouse effect, which is dominated by water"
Comment
10 of 12
January 8, 2009
Water....clouds...solar radiation...nighttime cooling cycles...as simple as that.

End the hysteria and get back to science!
Comment
11 of 12
January 9, 2009
There was one actual scientific citation in "weather observer" posts:
Solar-Cycle Warming at the Earth's Surface and an Observational Determination of Climate Sensitivity.
By Ka-Kit Tung and Charles D. Camp

It says that solar cycles produce ~.19W/M**2 in the difference from TSI min to max. Then it goes down from Max to min. It's an 11 year cycle, so over 11 years it has, on average, no effect on the decadal trend lines that are observed for GW. Tung and Camp are suggesting ways to make the GW predictions more accurate by filtering out the solar cycle effect. They are in NO WAY suggesting that GW is caused by the 11 year solar cycle.

By the way, there is also a 24 hour solar cycle - that is MUCH stronger than the effects of GW. You can check it out yourself.

Is this the only scientific source that is suggested? Because it does not support claims against the GW models. It serves only to make them more accurate.
Comment
12 of 12
January 11, 2009
Beyond the carbon arguments are the depletion arguments and the economic and political arguments. Pollution must also be considered. For those of us who find violence and pollution unpleasant, moving to renewables makes sense, separate from the carbon argument. I am skeptical about carbon trading. I suspect it of being another way to make the already advantaged even more so. Micro-grids based on the best technologies for certain micro-climates make very good sense to me regardless of the carbon argument. In a greenhouse situation, you can not grow plants optimally (some of you have heard this before from me) without any animals because you will develop an oxygen surplus from plant respiration. If you add animals, they breathe the oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, so that can work. But you have to watch out about the ammonia (nitrogen source needed by plants) if you get too many animals without enough plants to absorb the ammonia properly. It's very complex. Natural systems tinker with it, some forests becoming pretty stable over time, with proper balances. Humans can badly screw up this stuff if they lack a proper humility and ability to observe correctly and patiently. Arguments are common now that monoculture agriculture leads to boom and bust and stratified cultures where wars are necessary to get rid of the worker people who die off in busts. Whereas, communities such as the Amish, who enrich their soils, rotate properly, keep plants and animals and sufficient diversity, can be stable over time. In contrast, huge civilizations may have turned their agricultural land, with too much tillage and erosion, into deserts. When oil was discovered under the deserts, people could still live there, but growing their own food still has not worked so well, though there are many now arguing that the desert can be re-greened. We will see what comes out of Masdar about that. Small power close to the people!
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