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Researcher Focuses on Reducing Turbulence in Large Wind Farms

By James E. Kloeppel, University of Illinois
January 12, 2009   |   18 Comments

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"If wind is to be a major player in global electrical production, however, we have to think in terms of even larger scales- of say, thousands of turbines per wind farm"

-- Somnath Baidya Roy, Professor, Atmospheric sciences, University of Illinois
18 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 18
January 12, 2009
Who is saying turbulent winds, or changed wind flows and wakes from turbines is even a problem on the flora below? Are farmers complaining that crops are not growing as well below turbines? Are wild grasses being bent over too far? ;-) This local hydrometeorological research sounds like a solution looking for a problem.
Comment
2 of 18
January 12, 2009
Would placting a well designed tail structure to the back of the nacelle be able to reduce the turbulance?

adrianakau2aol.com
Comment
3 of 18
January 14, 2009
As an electrician I am interested in better ways to produce electrical power'

That said, I personally think that power can be produced on a smaller scale to accomplish the goal of reducing pollution,

This is something that I would pursue. if time and money weren't short.

I can think of ways to do it.for the individual home owner.that would be cost effective.

Thank you for spurring my interest ,
Comment
4 of 18
January 14, 2009
If this study is purely based on measurements, it is utter rubish.

To get a 3D-picture of turbulence in the atmosphere, one has to run an advanced mesoscale numerical model!

It doesn't only depend on dissipation of kinetic energy at the surface, but also advection of turbulence, mountain gravity waves and so on. The picture is far more complex than outlined above.

Furthermore, 100 large wind turbines spaced about 1 kilometer apart can produce more than 100 MW (!!!) of electricity!
Comment
5 of 18
January 14, 2009
I thought wind turbines were utilising atmospheric turbulence, a.k.a. wind, not causing it. Will next we read about studies stating that solar panels produce sunlight, and geothermal plants generate heat deep inside the earth?
Comment
6 of 18
January 14, 2009
I guess one can look at different energy producing methods in all kinds of novel ways.

One can propose the idea that coal plants provide an important function, by reducing the amount of carbon sequestered in the earth.

Internal combusion engines help get rid of those nasty naturally occuring oil seeps.

And wind turbines generate wind. OK, I'm convinced, sell me that bridge to Brooklyn.
Comment
7 of 18
January 14, 2009
Ah, numbers. So a 600 turbine plant can produce power for more than 140,000 homes, it says. Now, that would be on a windy summer night, assuming 2 MW peak output turbines, when the demand for each home was less than 850 watts (the fridge, and freezer running, with the AC, TV, and appliances off)? Mind you on the nice summer days when the air conditioners are humming and the home demands are about 2500 watts, and the winds turn calm, (Oh, Oh, our output is down below 10% again, like it was on >50% of the 100 summer days during peak hour in Ontario for two years in a row, even for widely separated wind farms) so we can supply less than 5,000 homes. Crank up the back up generators again. But wait, it promised right there in the "News" that we could "replace" those back up generators (coal or whatever). Sorry about that for the rest of you 135,000 customers. Check with us tomorrow evening, will you? You don't mind, do you?
Comment
8 of 18
January 14, 2009
As a farmer, I want the wind reduced at ground level. The turbines would do me a service. Any tree line or wind stop that doesn't shade the crop is a plus out in the fields where wind machines are commonly sited.
Is this just some theorist blowing smoke?
Comment
9 of 18
January 14, 2009
I am wondering about laminar flow and this author's hint that a certain
amount of living plant material might be acceptable for a wind farm.
Commercial Windfarm Horticulture anyone?

The power companies have, since their inception, fought vegetation from periodic tree trimming all the way to total soil sterilization. This is just another logical step in a long battle.

Eventually, someone may realize that a wind-biomass electrical power plant may have advantages over the quick build and sell wind farm.
Comment
10 of 18
January 14, 2009
Awea says that 7,500 of wind energy capacity was installed in 2008 but forgot to mention that in reality the average production will be around 1500 to 200Mw
and most of that during the night when it is not needed.
600 wind turbines will not supply to140,000 homes -in fact it will not supply power to any homes unless it is connected directly to it . But, as Mr Palmer has already pointed out, if these 140,000 homes were supplied directly by these 600 wind turbines most of these homes would be without power most of the time and all of them a lot of the time.
There are almost 100,000 wind turbines in service around the world yet not one coal fired station has been closed down because of wind power . Why?
the answer is quite simple - nowhere in the world does the wind blow all of the time and we prefer our lights to come on when it gets dark.
Lets face it we cannot control the wind therefore wind turbines simply are not even a part of the answer -our taxes are better spent on more reliable alternatives. see www.whitherindustrialwindpower.wordpress.com/
Comment
11 of 18
January 14, 2009
As a wind energy engineer and industry professional, I'm appalled that Renewable Energy World would publish such rubbish. There is no evidence to suggest that wind farms (regardless of their size) make any impact on the moisture content of local soils or disrupt the "natural kinetic energy cycle" of the earth. Simply put, the crop yield potential of a given area is NOT affected by the turbulence that is produced in the wake of an operating wind turbine.

The fact that this article made it to press is concerning to say the least (an editor actually approved this!?). Whatever confidence I once had in Renewable Energy World as a reputable industry news source is now completely gone.
Comment
12 of 18
January 14, 2009
Hey Tony Clark, if wind is so useless in your eyes, then how do you explain 7,500+ MW coming online in a year? And I'm so tired of people like you bringing up capacity factor like it's big secret. Coal plants operate at about 70% but just like wind they too are rated by their total MW size.
Comment
13 of 18
January 14, 2009
I fully agree with the above comment from "Disbeliever". It's inexcusable someone at RE-World actually read that article and decide to publish it as news. It's absolute rubbish.
Comment
14 of 18
January 14, 2009
Hey JB -where did I say 7,500+ Mw coming on line? I said 7,500Mw was installed.--big difference JB big difference.
Coal plants normally run as base power units at around 90% or more of their capacity however the output can be controlled at a lesser output if required .This is unlike wind power that produces only when the wind blows and only at certain speeds, 30% of it's capacity over one yr would be considered a real good wind turbine but even though a coal plant running at 70% would produce
more then two times the Mw per rated Mw it would be considered a poor generator.30% of 7500mw is2250mw 70% is 5050mw.
The coal plant power would be dispatchable and planned while the wind power will come and go with the wind and produce at it's best usually when it is not required . That's why large grids only plan for at max.10% of the rated capacity - it's not a big secret it's just reality.
Comment
15 of 18
January 14, 2009
Just to clear something up, turbulence is not the creation of wind, it is a change in wind speed and or direction. I do not know about specifics mentioned in this article, but as an environmental scientist with a degree in meteorology it certainly sounds feasible. There have been sound studies that point toward things like fallow fields and tree distribution within corn fields acting as a kicker for convectional storms. All unintended consequences need to be considered.
Comment
16 of 18
January 15, 2009
Human industrial progress is littered with 200 years of "unintended consequences". While it is intuitively logical that downwind turbulence will cause some "hydro-meteorlogical" effects, such as adiabatic condensation and vaporization; it is also logical that the effects will be trivial. However, if you attend a public hearing about wind farm siting you will find this issue on the list of NIMBYisms used by opponents. They claim effects up to 2 miles away, how do you PROVE them wrong? With valid scientific study.
Comment
17 of 18
January 21, 2009
It is hard to believe that we've "bought the wind farm" and overlooked vortex turbulence! How could they could ever possibly disrupt the flora in an area? But, take a moment and logically think this through. Here are literally scores of mega-watt, spinning "helicopter blades" on their sides!

I will put it in perspective for you. Take a 3'x3' house fan and turn it on High speed. Now, sit this blowing right next to your head, and try to go to sleep.

Don't stop there, with batteries, you take it with you, so it is always blowing toward your body 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months on end! Get the picture? Now tell me whether you, as a living being, would not be quickly disrupted and compromised by this activity?

We do not need to go through some million $ research procedure to see that this technology is disruptive, from beginning to end. Just because the swirling, chaotic vortexes being churned out cannot be seen, is like saying that your car doesn't pollute because you can't smell the exhaust gases while you drive!

It's all about the love of money, centralization and institutionalized control of the masses -to keep high-tension power line economy in action! You cannot get good fruit from a poison tree. Right? And where, once again, is the fruits of Man's greed showing up? In the destruction environment.

"Green" centralized mega-watt windpower generation? "Peace-time nuclear power?" and "peace-time rocketry?" They are all oxymorons.

The entire business of mega-watt, centralized energy-production has to be scrapped, to make way for empowering the individual to make their own energy from wind and solar.

Well, I won't just leave you in the lurch without giving to you a benign and decentralized wind-powered solution. Here is an invention which you can freely build and use. It is 3X more efficient, per size, than any spinning-bladed counterpart! http://darinselby.1hwy.com/whalestailworkings.html
Comment
18 of 18
February 10, 2009
Darin, the example in your rant is utterly misleading. Rather, the wind turbines are like you sitting in high wind, and using the fan _against_ the wind to get lower wind speed on your body. Besides, it would never be 24/7/365, as the wind doesn't blow that much.

As for your whale tail idea, if you want to build it really big, then you have to build the base extremely sturdy to be able to cope with the off-axis moments. Or am I missing something here? Do you have a power curve for an existing prototype?
The claim that it's 3x more efficient than a roughly 50% efficient spinning-bladed turbine is, frankly, hard to believe...

Best regards,
Gregor
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