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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? Click Here to Register! ×

Wind, Water and Sun Beat Biofuels, Nuclear and Coal for Energy Generation, Study Says

Wind power is the most promising alternative source of energy, according to Mark Jacobson.

Louis Bergeron, Stanford News Writer
December 17, 2008  |  115 Comments

The best ways to improve energy security, mitigate global warming and reduce the number of deaths caused by air pollution are blowing in the wind and rippling in the water, not growing on prairies or glowing inside nuclear power plants, says Mark Z. Jacobson, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford.

And "clean coal," which involves capturing carbon emissions and sequestering them in the earth, is not clean at all, he asserts.

Jacobson has conducted the first quantitative, scientific evaluation of the proposed, major, energy-related solutions by assessing not only their potential for delivering energy for electricity and vehicles, but also their impacts on global warming, human health, energy security, water supply, space requirements, wildlife, water pollution, reliability and sustainability. His findings indicate that the options that are getting the most attention are between 25 to 1,000 times more polluting than the best available options. The paper with his findings will be published in the next issue of Energy and Environmental Science and is available online here. Jacobson is also director of the Atmosphere/Energy Program at Stanford.

"The energy alternatives that are good are not the ones that people have been talking about the most. And some options that have been proposed are just downright awful," Jacobson said. "Ethanol-based biofuels will actually cause more harm to human health, wildlife, water supply and land use than current fossil fuels." He added that ethanol may also emit more global-warming pollutants than fossil fuels, according to the latest scientific studies.

The raw energy sources that Jacobson found to be the most promising are, in order, wind, concentrated solar (the use of mirrors to heat a fluid), geothermal, tidal, solar photovoltaics (rooftop solar panels), wave and hydroelectric. He recommends against nuclear, coal with carbon capture and sequestration, corn ethanol and cellulosic ethanol, which is made of prairie grass. In fact, he found cellulosic ethanol was worse than corn ethanol because it results in more air pollution, requires more land to produce and causes more damage to wildlife.

To place the various alternatives on an equal footing, Jacobson first made his comparisons among the energy sources by calculating the impacts as if each alternative alone were used to power all the vehicles in the United States, assuming only "new-technology" vehicles were being used. Such vehicles include battery electric vehicles (BEVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs), and "flex-fuel" vehicles that could run on a high blend of ethanol called E85.

Wind was by far the most promising, Jacobson said, owing to a better-than 99 percent reduction in carbon and air pollution emissions; the consumption of less than 3 square kilometers of land for the turbine footprints to run the entire U.S. vehicle fleet (given the fleet is composed of battery-electric vehicles); the saving of about 15,000 lives per year from premature air-pollution-related deaths from vehicle exhaust in the United States; and virtually no water consumption. By contrast, corn and cellulosic ethanol will continue to cause more than 15,000 air pollution-related deaths in the country per year, Jacobson asserted.

Because the wind turbines would require a modest amount of spacing between them to allow room for the blades to spin, wind farms would occupy about 0.5 percent of all U.S. land, but this amount is more than 30 times less than that required for growing corn or grasses for ethanol. Land between turbines on wind farms would be simultaneously available as farmland or pasture or could be left as open space.

Indeed, a battery-powered U.S. vehicle fleet could be charged by 73,000 to 144,000 5-megawatt wind turbines, fewer than the 300,000 airplanes the U.S. produced during World War II and far easier to build. Additional turbines could provide electricity for other energy needs.

"There is a lot of talk among politicians that we need a massive jobs program to pull the economy out of the current recession," Jacobson said. "Well, putting people to work building wind turbines, solar plants, geothermal plants, electric vehicles and transmission lines would not only create jobs but would also reduce costs due to health care, crop damage and climate damage from current vehicle and electric power pollution, as well as provide the world with a truly unlimited supply of clean power."

Jacobson said that while some people are under the impression that wind and wave power are too variable to provide steady amounts of electricity, his research group has already shown in previous research that by properly coordinating the energy output from wind farms in different locations, the potential problem with variability can be overcome and a steady supply of baseline power delivered to users.

Jacobson's research is particularly timely in light of the growing push to develop biofuels, which he calculated to be the worst of the available alternatives. In their effort to obtain a federal bailout, the Big Three Detroit automakers are increasingly touting their efforts and programs in the biofuels realm, and federal research dollars have been supporting a growing number of biofuel-research efforts.

"That is exactly the wrong place to be spending our money. Biofuels are the most damaging choice we could make in our efforts to move away from using fossil fuels," Jacobson said. "We should be spending to promote energy technologies that cause significant reductions in carbon emissions and air-pollution mortality, not technologies that have either marginal benefits or no benefits at all."

"Obviously, wind alone isn't the solution," Jacobson said. "It's got to be a package deal, with energy also being produced by other sources such as solar, tidal, wave and geothermal power."

During the recent presidential campaign, nuclear power and clean coal were often touted as energy solutions that should be pursued, but nuclear power and coal with carbon capture and sequestration were Jacobson's lowest-ranked choices after biofuels. "Coal with carbon sequestration emits 60- to 110-times more carbon and air pollution than wind energy, and nuclear emits about 25-times more carbon and air pollution than wind energy," Jacobson said. Although carbon-capture equipment reduces 85-90 percent of the carbon exhaust from a coal-fired power plant, it has no impact on the carbon resulting from the mining or transport of the coal or on the exhaust of other air pollutants. In fact, because carbon capture requires a roughly 25-percent increase in energy from the coal plant, about 25 percent more coal is needed, increasing mountaintop removal and increasing non-carbon air pollution from power plants, he said.

Nuclear power poses other risks. Jacobson said it is likely that if the United States were to move more heavily into nuclear power, then other nations would demand to be able to use that option.

"Once you have a nuclear energy facility, it's straightforward to start refining uranium in that facility, which is what Iran is doing and Venezuela is planning to do," Jacobson said. "The potential for terrorists to obtain a nuclear weapon or for states to develop nuclear weapons that could be used in limited regional wars will certainly increase with an increase in the number of nuclear energy facilities worldwide." Jacobson calculated that if one small nuclear bomb exploded, the carbon emissions from the burning of a large city would be modest, but the death rate for one such event would be twice as large as the current vehicle air pollution death rate summed over 30 years.

Finally, both coal and nuclear energy plants take much longer to plan, permit and construct than do most of the other new energy sources that Jacobson's study recommends. The result would be even more emissions from existing nuclear and coal power sources as people continue to use comparatively "dirty" electricity while waiting for the new energy sources to come online, Jacobson said.

Jacobson received no funding from any interest group, company or government agency.

Energy and vehicle options, from best to worst, according to Jacobson's calculations:

Best to worst electric power sources:

1. Wind power 2. concentrated solar power (CSP) 3. geothermal power 4. tidal power 5. solar photovoltaics (PV) 6. wave power 7. hydroelectric power 8. a tie between nuclear power and coal with carbon capture and sequestration (CCS).

Best to worst vehicle options:

1. Wind-BEVs (battery electric vehicles) 2. wind-HFCVs (hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) 3.CSP-BEVs 4. geothermal-BEVs 5. tidal-BEVs 6. solar PV-BEVs 7. Wave-BEVs 8.hydroelectric-BEVs 9. a tie between nuclear-BEVs and coal-CCS-BEVs 11. corn-E85 12.cellulosic-E85.

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles were examined only when powered by wind energy, but they could be combined with other electric power sources. Although HFCVs require about three times more energy than do BEVs (BEVs are very efficient), HFCVs are still very clean and more efficient than pure gasoline, and wind-HFCVs still resulted in the second-highest overall ranking. HFCVs have an advantage in that they can be refueled faster than can BEVs (although BEV charging is getting faster). Thus, HFCVs may be useful for long trips (more than 250 miles) while BEVs more useful for trips less than 250 miles. An ideal combination may be a BEV-HFCV hybrid.

Louis Bergeron is a science writer for Stanford University News Service covering earth sciences, biology, chemistry and environmental science. He has written on research findings as varied as the importance of circadian rhythm to learning retention in Siberian hamsters, energy transfer in near-collisions at the molecular scale, and tagging and tracking studies of bluefin tuna, white sharks and leatherback turtles. Before joining the News Service he worked as a freelance science writer and editor, contributing to print and online publications such as New Scientist, ScienceNOW, Exploratorium Magazine, PC World, SWARA (the magazine of the East African Wild Life Society) and Stanford Medicine. He earned a bachelor's degree in geology from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and a master's degree in earth sciences from the University of California-Santa Cruz.

115 Comments

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Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 6, 2009
Howard, what I believe. No science here.
1. WAR! UGH! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR? ABSOLUTLELY NOTHIN'!
2. When will they ever learn?

When God created the heavens and the earth, he color coded everything. Coal and oil are black---the color of evil, despair, hopelessness, grief, defeat and death. When you burn coal or oil---one of the products produced is sulpher dioxide---brimstone, the brimstone of hell, home of the ultimate evil.
Plants are green---the color of abundence, prosperity, hope, and protection. Flowers, the universal symbols of peace, love, caring, joy and beauty are plants. Plants live in light.

I don't think God did that by accident. I think it is a warning.

God has warned us. It is up to us whether we heed the warnings or not.

Like I said, no science here.
Howard Johnson
Howard Johnson
January 5, 2009
Fred,

Don't forget, the Military-Industrial Complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex

The Complex goes hand in hand with the Oil men of Texas.

I think it is a lost cause. From 1950 until today, the method, hmm, no the creation of war and the reason for continuing it simply amazes me.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 3, 2009
---"Are you honestly suggesting that the United States would simply walk away from those two countries -- stop spending money on them -- if somehow America suddenly reduced its oil consumption enough to no longer require imports "---

The White House has been run BY oil men FOR oil men for the last 8 years. The entire point of the military occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan has been trying to install puppet governments that will jump on strings leading to Washington and oil lobbyists, NOT to bring democracy to these countries. THAT is why there is continued fighting and terrorism and a resurgence of the Taliban. The whole point of the occupation is a continued cheap oil supply to maintain corporate oil profits, not peace or freedom for the Iraqi people OR the Afghan people. Afghanistan is important for two reasons, religion and geography, the same as it has been since the time of Alexander the Great----it is the gateway to the middle east. It is the land bridge between Asia and the middle east. The two areas of the world with the largest increases in demand for oil are China, and India. To get oil to China and India you either have to pass through the Gulf of Hormuz and the US Navy, or go through Afghanistan. Control of oil supply has been the entire focus of US policy for the last 8 years.

---"Are you honestly suggesting that the United States would simply walk away from those two countries -- stop spending money on them -- if somehow America suddenly reduced its oil consumption enough to no longer require imports (except perhaps from friendly countries, like Canada)?"---
Yes.
If we have no need of oil because we supply our energy needs with biofuels we'd have no need to even be in th middle east, let alone fighting wars that have claim 4,000+ American lives.
If we just make the biofuels, we can implement them very quickly---all we need to change is the fuels, very little else.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2008/06/bill_moyers_michael_winship_it.html
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
January 3, 2009
"I have seen estimates that the war in Iraq/Afghanistan will have a final bill of between $3.5-4 Trillion dollars. There is NO question now that the first gulf war and the present gulf war has as a basic goal acquireing and protecting cheap oil assetts." -- Fred Linn

No question? How much oil is the United States importing from Afghanistan? Are you honestly suggesting that the United States would simply walk away from those two countries -- stop spending money on them -- if somehow America suddenly reduced its oil consumption enough to no longer require imports (except perhaps from friendly countries, like Canada)?
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
January 3, 2009
"Wrong. The ethanol produced to run the Indy race cars is produced in St. Joseph, Missouri." -- Fred Linn

From Ethanol Producer Magazine (Nov. 2006):

www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2475

"Renova Energy will be the sole provider of fuel to the [2007] series ... . Renova Energy is the parent company for Wyoming Ethanol LLC, a 12 MMgy plant in Torrington, Wyo.."

LifeLine Foods, your St. Joseph, MO supplier, became the offiial supplier for the 2008 season.

From Ethanol Producer Magazine (Dec. 2008):

www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=5083

"IndyCar Series and APEX-Brasil, a Brazilian trade association, have formed a partnership. Beginning with the 2009 season, APEX-Brasil will be the official ethanol supplier for the IndyCar Series. The multi-year deal, announced Nov. 18, named APEX-Brasil an official partner of the Indy Racing League and the Indianapolis 500.

"UNICA, the Brazilian Sugarcane Industry Association, will cooperate with APEX-Brasil to identify those interested in supplying ethanol to the series. Initially, UNICA said it will look for a U.S.-based ethanol company to partner with in supplying the IndyCar Series with corn-based ethanol.

"However, in a Nov. 21 letter to Terry Angstadt, IRL president of the commercial division, the Renewable Fuels Association urged him to reconsider the decision to make Brazil the official ethanol supplier for the IndyCar Series. In the letter, RFA President Bob Dinneen said that at a minimum, American homegrown ethanol should be used to fuel the Indianapolis 500.

"The decision to bypass the more than 180 ethanol biorefineries across our country in favor of a tanker ship from Sao Paulo to be the official supplier of fuel for the IRL is an affront to America's farmers ... "

That sounds like the RFA was pretty worried that imported Brazilian ethanol would be used. But perhaps APEX-Brasil has since decided to contract with a U.S. supplier rather than import the ethanol.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 3, 2009
--------"Nobody disputes that one can design car engines that can run on 100% ethanol, or 100% biodiesel, for that matter. The issue being debated, however, is the cost-effectiveness of government policies that mandate and subsidize biofuels, not how wonderful ethanol is in running a race car."-------

I have seen estimates that the war in Iraq/Afghanistan will have a final bill of between $3.5-4 Trillion dollars. There is NO question now that the first gulf war and the present gulf war has as a basic goal acquireing and protecting cheap oil assetts.

We can buy a hell of a lot of, economic benefit, environmental benefit, homeland security, international prestige, and get our troops out of harm's way if we would invest even a tiny fraction of what is being spent to maintain the status quo of petroleum use to switch to biofuels. Mandating that all vehicles sold in the US be flex fuel or biofuel capable would involve far less expense than mandating airbag use.
Brazil went from bankruptcy, riots, and communist revolution in the 80's to energy independence and the 10th largest and one of the most stable economies in the world today by switching to biofuels. We should do the same.
We can grow sugar cane here too. We can also grow sugar beets here. Almost anywhere. We have FAR more resources for producing biofuels than Brazil.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 3, 2009
-------"By the way, in case you missed it, the Indy Racing League decided last November to switch ethanol sources. Previously supplied by Wyoming Ethanol LLC, in 2007 the cars will be running on Brazilian ethanol."------

Wrong. The ethanol produced to run the Indy race cars is produced in St. Joseph, Missouri.

----"But what relevance Indy cars have to the every-day needs of commuting citizens remains obscure to me. "------

OK, everywhere I look on these forums I find people moaning that "Detroit" killed the electric car, or "Detroit" killed small economy cars to build large SUVs/trucks. Detroit(or any other car maker) is in business to sell vehicles. They cann't make a profit if the vehicles they produce do not sell. Car makers build the vehicles that they can sell at a profit. Car makers build large SUVs/trucks with big engines because that is what people want to buy. No vehicle manuacturer in Detroit or anywhere else stays in business by building vehicles they cann't sell.
We need to end our dependence on petroleum for a great number of reasons. Environmental, political, economic, and security to name a few.
Preaching at people does not work. Most people still want what they want---large vehcles with power and luxury. Biofuels can deliver everything that people want in vehicles and do it without any loss of what people want or performance and at little or no added expense.
Biofuels are the only logical alternative to petroleum.

Flex Fuel vehicles are only an interim solution. Performance is hindered by the need to tune the engine to be able to use petroleum, not by the use of ethanol. With ethanol widely available and no need to limit engines to be able to use petroleum---there can be vast performance increases. Greater power from smaller engines. Small economy cars such as a VW beetle could get their power from engines not much larger than lawnmower engines.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
January 3, 2009
Fred, you are always banging on about what (in your opinion) people want. I'll concede that there are probably millions of people out there who would love one day to pilot an IndyCar. But what relevance Indy cars have to the every-day needs of commuting citizens remains obscure to me.

Besides costing upwards of half a million dollars per vehicle, an IndyCar seats only one person (the driver), provides no space for luggage, not even a roof to keep out the rain, and gets "slightly more than 3 mpg". (No wonder ethanol suppliers love these cars.)

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2475

By the way, in case you missed it, the Indy Racing League decided last November to switch ethanol sources. Previously supplied by Wyoming Ethanol LLC, in 2007 the cars will be running on Brazilian ethanol.

As for street vehicles that run only on ethanol, Brazil promoted sales of these in the 1980s. The policy ended in tears. Gasoline prices dropped at about the same time as sugar prices rose. Supplies of hydrous ethanol dried up, and owners stuck with these vehicles had to wait in long queues to tank up ... when they could find the stuff. Sales of dedicated-ethanol vehicles plummeted in 1990, never to recover again.

http://www.choicesmagazine.org/2006-2/tilling/2006-2-10-03.gif

When flex-fuel vehicles started to become available, at the start of this decade, they caught on quickly, and now account for the bulk of new car sales. But the difference is that a typical Brazilian FFV is a thrifty compact car; in the United States it is typically a big SUV. (That need not be the case, of course.) And Brazilian motorists have access to cheaper, sugarcane-derived ethanol.

Nobody disputes that one can design car engines that can run on 100% ethanol, or 100% biodiesel, for that matter. The issue being debated, however, is the cost-effectiveness of government policies that mandate and subsidize biofuels, not how wonderful ethanol is in running a race car.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 2, 2009
-----------"Fred,
You and I both know that the only reason that alcohol is used for race cars is that water can be used to put the fire out."--------------

Yes, ethanol is safer to handle and far less toxic than petroleum. Ethanol is now the circuit standard because of its low toxicity compared to methanol(another alcohol fuel----produced from coal). Methanol is almost identical to ethanol as a fuel, but is far more toxic especially to the nervous system. This is the reason methanol is ruled out. Ethanol is safe enough that it is the handwashing technique used in hospitals were workers wash hands often many times per hour to prevent infections.

------"Alcohol contains only 65% of the energy of gasoline."--------

That is true chemically. However, ethanol has an octane rating of about 115----meaning that it can be used in ultra high compression ratio engines. An engines compression ratio is what governs its thermal efficiency--how much of the potential energy in the fuel gets converted into actual work. With the ability to run compression ratios of up to 16 or 18 to one, ethanol can achieve twice the efficiency of gasoline powered engines. This means you can get more fuel>work and more power>size from an engine using ethanol than you can from an engine using gasoline---regardless of the chemical difference in the fuels. This is why almost all motor performance sports use ethanol now. It delivers about 40-45% vs. about 25% efficiency from gasoline. There is only one criteria in motor sports, winning. The key to winning is thermal efficiency. That is why all of the fastest race cars in the world use ethanol---it is a better fuel.

If the lower chemical specific heat of ethanol bothers you that much, then use biodiesel. Diesel engines are already high compression, and require no modifiation whatever to use biodiesel. Diesel engines are also in the range of 40-45% thermal efficiency.
David Onkels
David Onkels
January 1, 2009
Fred,
You and I both know that the only reason that alcohol is used for race cars is that water can be used to put the fire out.

Alcohol contains only 65% of the energy of gasoline.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
January 1, 2009
135,000 people didn't go to Indianapolis and pay $25 to $250 to see who can drive slow get the most miles per gallon. They went to see the fastest cars in the world compete. They went to see cars powered exclusively on ethanol.

The Consumer Reports article is correct for the most part but they left out several very pertinent facts.

Flex Fuel vehicles get lower mileage per gallon on E-85 than they do on gas.
This is true. Usually about 20%. However, E-85 is also cheaper than gasoline. It costs roughly the same per mile to use either one. This is because, in order to use gasoline, the compression ratio must be kept low. Most regular gas has an octane rating of 85-87. Ethanol has an octane rating of about 115. If there were no need to use gasoline, an internal combustion engine using ethanol can easily tolerate compression ratios of 16 to 18 to one, about x2 what you can get using gasoline. Ethanol engines are far more efficient and develop far more power per cubic inch than gasoline engines. With ethanol widely available, and no need to run engines on gasoline, mileage will be equal to or better than gasoline engines, and we can get far more power and performance from smaller engines. The Chevy Tahoe in question uses a large V8 engine(4.8 -5.3L; 293 to 323 bhp)----compare that to ethanol engines used in Indy racers---3L @ 1200-1600 bhp. Ethanol could easily power a Chevy Tahoe with an engine 1/2 the size of the V8s required with gasoline---and have PLENTY of power left over. They would also get better mileage than gas engines----they are inherrently more efficient. That is why they are used in race cars. It is also why diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines, they are already high compression engines and require no modification to operate efficiently on biofuels---they were originally designed by Rudolf Diesel for biofuels. Peanut oil.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
December 31, 2008
Fred said ..."My take on this is that you don't care what "people" want, You want to be the one to "tell" people what they can have and to hell with what they want."

Let's see here, the government takes my tax money, gives it to farmers, ethanol refiners, and oil company blenders to mix into my gas a crappy fuel I don't want. And even though I have already unwillingly subsidized it, I now have to buy it back regardless of what that blended alcohol costs, does to food prices, or the environment. This sure isn't what I want.

Here is what consumer reports (a magazine devoted to protecting the consumer) thinks about this fuel and they don't know the half of it:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2006/ethanol-10-06/overview/1006_ethanol_ov1_1.htm
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 31, 2008
William Norton,

I think that Russ Finley largely answers your concern that not only should drivers face the true cost of their driving, including externalities, but that viable transport alternatives need also to be available. (Many would include among the alternatives better bus service, more electric rails, metros and trams, and much more extensive bicycle paths.) As Russ puts it succinctly, "efficiency is the low-hanging fruit that can buy us time to electrify transport with renewable power sources."

As for creating an infrastructure for electric-powered cars, I agree that there needs to be some planning put into how best to upgrade the grid, for one. My impression is that the electric utilities are already studying the issue and preparing for new investments. For the moment, however, the weaknesses of the existing grid have not prevented a number of owners of hybrid vehicles from converting them to plug-in electric vehicles, charging them up at their homes.

By the way, in Europe, a number of airport parking lots have already installed plug-in points. Geneva, for example:

http://www.gva.ch/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-140/

These do not provide a recharge instantaneously, but they are appropriate for the many people who basically use their cars to commute and then leave them parked for 3 hours or more at a time.

The problem of the high cost of current electric vehicles is partly a legacy of the internal combustion engine. Electric cars that are big and bulky enough to survive a collision with a 5.3-litre SUV, and can drive long distances without a recharge, are going to be expensive -- at least until the price of batteries come down. But there is an important niche for electric vehicles in cities. If cities created special lanes for smaller, lighter vehicles -- be they powered by batteries, compressed air, or human energy -- I believe we would see a flourishing of much lower-cost clean transport options emerging ... supplied by the market.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 31, 2008
Gee, Russ. I guess we are both heartless souls who don't care about what people want. According to Fred Linn, people want everything their hearts desire (a Hummer in every garage?), NOW, and at no extra cost to them, so it is the responsibility of governments to give it to them. Our notion that citizens want their government representatives to promote the common good, and act responsibly, I guess is just old fashioned.

And I thought all you were saying, Russ, was that if people don't like consuming oil, they can cut their oil use dramatically and immediately ... on their own, without waiting for the government to intervene. But I guess that appealing to individual initiative is SO twentieth century.

My reading is that when somebody like Fred advocates mandating (and subsidizing) a particular technology, in this case biofuels, they are telling people not so much what they want, but what they are going to get, like it or not. But I'm somebody who can't see the forest for the cornstalks.

Fred is right, of course, that stopping to subsidize fossil energy should be the first order of the day. But what he seems not to have noticed is that most of the $300-$400 billion in subsidies that organizations like the International Energy Agency have tallied are market transfers to consumers (i.e., consumer subsidies), mainly provided by developing countries (like China and Indonesia) and oil-exporting countries (like Iran, Iraq and Venezuela) through artifically low administered prices. Reforming those subsidies would certainly reduce global oil and gas consumption worldwide, but it is also a painful process, requiring careful planning and flanking measures to protect the poor.

What is ironic is that some of those countries, like China and Indonesia, are trying to push biofuels into the market while at the same time subsidizing liquid fuel consumption. That means, effectively, that the governments are subsidizing both biofuel production AND consumption.
William Norton
William Norton
December 30, 2008
R. Steenblik-----------"The two most important rules about energy innovation are: (1) Price matters — when prices go up people change their habits. (2) You need a systemic approach. It makes no sense for Congress to pump $13.4 billion into bailing out Detroit — and demand that the auto companies use this cash to make more fuel-efficient cars — and then do nothing to shape consumer behavior with a gas tax so more Americans will want to buy those cars. As long as gas is cheap, people will go out and buy used SUVs and Hummers."

Exactly."----------

F. Linn-------"Hybrids that burn gas are just slowing the treadmill a little---it is still a treadmill...biofuels are the only technology that can provide what everyone wants(well, except for you two)."

For crying out loud, why isn't anybody talking about infrastructure building? I will admit I don't have empirical data, but everyone I talk to would love to have an electric car, but the same three objections keep coming up:
1) They're too expensive
2) Standard IC engine cars outperform them
3) Where the heck am I going to charge the blasted thing?

High gas taxes will certainly HELP provide incentive to switch to electrical, but it's only half of the equation, and the painful half at that (at least for the low-income people). The other half is jump-starting the infrastructure by offering incentives or mandates for stations to provide quick charges and getting the economies of scale going to bring the prices of PEVs down so people could actually AFFORD them.

I'm normally not in favor of socialist activism like this and would much prefer to have electric cars become the norm in the same gradual, market-driven way that the IC engine cars did, but we don't have the time, and half-measures like hybrids and biofuels are not the answer! We've got to get carbon neutral NOW!
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 30, 2008
Hybrids that burn gas are just slowing the treadmill a little---it is still a treadmill.

You all want to scream to high heaven about subsidies to biofuels and other RE sources---what about subsidies to fossil fuels? They are so pervasive that no one even knows how much they amount to. I've seen estimates of $300-400 Billion. Get rid of subsidies for fossil fuels and THEN worry about if we need subsidies for RE energy. My bet is that we won't. We block or tax any other import that poses a danger to public health, or the economy----oil should be no different. Place a large import tax on oil.

R. Steenblik-----------"The two most important rules about energy innovation are: (1) Price matters — when prices go up people change their habits. (2) You need a systemic approach. It makes no sense for Congress to pump $13.4 billion into bailing out Detroit — and demand that the auto companies use this cash to make more fuel-efficient cars — and then do nothing to shape consumer behavior with a gas tax so more Americans will want to buy those cars. As long as gas is cheap, people will go out and buy used SUVs and Hummers."

Exactly."----------

My take on this is that you don't care what "people" want, You want to be the one to "tell" people what they can have and to hell with what they want.
I think THAT is what sticks in the craw with you and Russ---the fact that you think you are better than everyone else and need to TELL everyone what they can have or not have.
-----" Just drive a high mileage car for God's sake that doubles America's pathetic 24 mpg average if you can't sleep at night worrying about oil imports. "------------

Not everyone wants that. I think you two will be sorely disappointed in the long run---biofuels are the only technology that can provide what everyone wants(well, except for you two).

Biofuels will win out in the end----they make sense and can provide what the mass market wants.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
December 30, 2008
My compliments Mr. Steenblik.

That was a very interesting thread. It is all about price. Liquid biofuels have shown in study after study to be one of the least efficient ways to reduce GHG and oil imports. Just drive a high mileage car for God's sake that doubles America's pathetic 24 mpg average if you can't sleep at night worrying about oil imports. The Prius is a five peson midsize hatchback. The Insight will soon join it in the market as an option as will many others. Efficiency is the low hanging fruit that can buy us time to electrify transport with renewable power sources. Coal is the real problem with GHG. We have to stop using it. Combine clean power with heavily electrified transport and we can achieve an exponential improvement.

Upon close inspection, government backing of liquid biofuels has turned out to be a dumb idea.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 30, 2008
Thomas L. Friedman, writing in the 27.12.08 edition of the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/opinion/28friedman.html?_r=1

"I believe the second biggest decision Barack Obama has to make — the first is deciding the size of the stimulus — is whether to increase the federal gasoline tax or impose an economy-wide carbon tax. Best I can tell, the Obama team has no intention of doing either at this time. I understand why. Raising taxes in a recession is a no-no. But I've wracked my brain trying to think of ways to retool America around clean-power technologies without a price signal — i.e., a tax — and there are no effective ones. (Toughening energy-effiency regulations alone won't do it.) Without a higher gas tax or carbon tax, Obama will lack the leverage to drive critical pieces of his foreign and domestic agendas. ...

The public is ready to be mobilized. Obama is coming in with enormous popularity. This is his best window of opportunity to impose a gas tax. And he could make it painless: offset the gas tax by lowering payroll taxes, or phase it in over two years at 10 cents a month. But if Obama, like Bush, wills the ends and not the means — wills a green economy without the price signals needed to change consumer behavior and drive innovation — he will fail.

The two most important rules about energy innovation are: (1) Price matters — when prices go up people change their habits. (2) You need a systemic approach. It makes no sense for Congress to pump $13.4 billion into bailing out Detroit — and demand that the auto companies use this cash to make more fuel-efficient cars — and then do nothing to shape consumer behavior with a gas tax so more Americans will want to buy those cars. As long as gas is cheap, people will go out and buy used SUVs and Hummers."

Exactly.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 29, 2008
--------""So, practically speaking, Fred, Nos. 1-10 are on schedule to start rolling out."-----------

In other words, they don't exist yet.

-----" No. 12 is way behind schedule,"--------

Germany supplied its entire energy needs during WW2 with bio and synthetic fuels produced from wood and coal using Fischer-Tropsch process after the defeat of Rommel's Afrika Corps in North Africa and the bombing of Ploesti by Allied forces. Over 60 years ago.

------"Also, as an aside, I'm trying to find out more about the new green collar jobs, and it seems hard to find anything that doesn't require that you already are an expert. Any advice about how to start? I don't want to be a "do nothing," as Fred puts it."-------------

You could be a farmer.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 29, 2008
Plants that biofuels are made from remove CO2 from the atmosphere.
William Norton
William Norton
December 29, 2008
"So, practically speaking, Fred, Nos. 1-10 are on schedule to start rolling out. No. 12 is way behind schedule, and No. 11 may help reduce a small amount of oil consumption, but only because of mandates, border protection and subsidies. Currently, wholesale gasoline prices are under $1.00 per gallon"

I concur, but would like to add that all-electric vehicles that kick the performance crap out of standard IC engine cars already exist. The problem is they cost $100,000. Affordable ones like the Chevy Volt are slated to come out in 2010, but what I fear is that without jump-starting the infrastructure, we may run out of time (from a climate change point of view). Are there any tangible studies out there on how much it would cost to set up a charging station infrastructure, for example? Whatever the cost, my guess is that the payoff is less than a decade. This is the kind of bold initiative we need.

Also, as an aside, I'm trying to find out more about the new green collar jobs, and it seems hard to find anything that doesn't require that you already are an expert. Any advice about how to start? I don't want to be a "do nothing," as Fred puts it.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 29, 2008
Thank you for the kind words, David. Nice to know that Fred Linn and I weren't the only people following this rather extended string.

You make a fair point about carbon taxes (which Fred Linn continues to ignore, and instead claims I advocate a "do nothing policy"). But the question is whether a carbon tax would be more subject to distortionary political pressure than any other policy we have. My view is that, if the carbon tax were universal, there would be more scrutiny of it than there is currently of the mishmash of biofuel and oil-tax policies we currently have. And, yes, they would be expensive to administer, but mainly for biofuels (as fossil fuels would presumably be taxed at source, and the carbon content of the fuels is pretty easy to measure).

One way or another, the administrative costs of any biofuels regime is going to be expensive. Starting in 2009, any biofuels sourced from a new plant will have to prove that, on a life-cycle basis, they achieve at least a 20% reduction in greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions compared with the life-cycle GHG emissions of gasoline or diesel. That means that the measurement of life-cycle GHG emissions will be measured in any case. The difference is with the approach under the renewable fuels standard (RFS), a supplier either qualifies or it doesn't -- i.e., near the 20% marke there is a knife-edge determination. With a carbon tax, they would pay proportionally to their GHG emissions.

I agree that it is virtually certain that a carbon tax would not be imposed in an EXACTLY revenue-neutral way, but I believe it is within the realm of possibility that Congress could get it approximately right. In any case, most people advocating a carbon tax make that condition a sine quo non.

If you have another idea, I'm all ears.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 28, 2008
Ronald Steenblik,
It was a pleasure to follow your posts on this thread after I left. I'm sure you're familiar with Greg Mankiew's stance on Pigovian taxes, which are imposed to deal with externalities resulting from certain economic activities:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/ (Actually, you have to scroll back a bit to find references to Club Pigou.)

Mankiw favors carbon taxes, of course. I think that the problem with those taxes lies in the high probability that tax calculations would be subject to enormous distortionary political pressure, and also that they would be expensive to administer. In addition, it is virtually certain that they would not be imposed in a revenue-neutral way.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 28, 2008
----"So, to sum up your position: you continue to support failed biofuel policies;"-------

About 40% of the vehicles on the road now can use biodiesel either 100% or any proportion mix with no modification whatever.

All gasoline powered engines can use up to 20% ethanol mix, there are about 8 million Flex Fuel vehicles on the road now, and this year about 1/2 of vehicles produced were flex fuel capable.

Biofuels are compatible with our current supply and distribution infrastructure and require no major changes.

Biofuels have been around over 100 years and are well known and have been used with with great success in the past and today. The fastest race cars in the world, Indy League Race Circuit run on 100% ethanol and have run on alcohol based fuels for over 30 years.

Biofuels are clean burning, in use now to reduce pollution, and are part of the natural carbon/energy cycle that has transfered the radient energy of the sun to all earth's organisms for billions of years.

Electricity is clean, but cann't make claim to any other advantage that biofuels have. Even if we do as you suggest and do nothing, petroleum will run out eventually---and we'll be back to riding horses(in which case we will have to use biofuels).

We can change laws and treaties---we cann't change physical properties.

You've been living in France too long. This isn't France. In America we don't whine, we make things work.

BTW---if American oil companies want to make windfall profits in the face of an oil import tariff, they'll have to uncap wells and resume producing oil here instead of shipping $$$ and jobs overseas. Exactly what is needed.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 28, 2008
Fred, this is my last post on this string. Redread my comments. I have spoken about numerous alternatives (including a carbon tax), as well as discussed other biofuels besides corn ethanol. But since corn ethanol is, BY FAR, the dominant biofuel being produced in the USA -- and will continue to be for many years -- it merits the most attention in any discussion of biofuel policy. Your continued references to other biofuels, none of which are being produced commercially, is smoke and mirrors.

We may need to replace oil now, but we can't wish its consumption away, and the economy can't ignore the costs of the various means to reduce it.

You continue to defend a tariff that makes ethanol more expensive in the USA (especially in the coastal cities) and advocate a tariff on imported petroleum. Such a tariff would not just make imported oil more expensive; it would make ALL petroleum products more expensive, but in a way that would grant windfall profits to domestic oil producers and (as long as trade barriers are maintained on ethanol) increase the domestic price of ethanol. But substantially increasing the oil tariff is also no answer, given that the United States has legally bound its low tariffs on petroleum and petroleum products at the WTO. It's not going to happen, so who's pedalling pipe dreams?

So, to sum up your position: you continue to support failed biofuel policies; expect the country to little more than wait (at least) a decade before cellulosic ethanol begins to contribute even 4% to total gasoline supply; don't care that current biodiesel production is expensive, leads to deforestation and drives up the costs of basic staples; would have us believe that large amounts of algal biodiesel are just around the corner, as is large-scale use of biogas for transport (even though its current use is even less than of electricity); and advocate an unrealistic change in trade policy that would provide a massive windfall profit to U.S. oil companies.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
------"I am getting tired chasing your arguments in circles, Fred. I thought for a moment we were having a cogent dialogue. Instead, you are just throwing out whatever lame excuses to defend your stance on biofuels come to mind."----------

----"You are just being nit-picking and argumentative, Fred. "-----

Perhaps you are chasing in circles because you have NO workable alternatives for petroleum---only pipedreams and vaporware electric vehicles that don't exist. And can not exist in anything more than token numbers for many years to come.

I don't see anything in any of your posts that comes even remotely close to any kind of workable solution. All you want to do is throw rocks. It seems to me that what you are in favor of doing is nothing. Do nothing to reduce dependence on foreign oil. Do nothing to pull the economy out of recession. Keep right on transfering wealth out of ownership by US citizens to wealthy foreign investors and governments. Do nothing to stop environmental degradation.
----"And a $50/per barrel import tariff on petroleum wouldn't?"------
Yes, a tariff is not a subsidy. It would make imported fuel more expensive. That would encourage conservation, it would mean less imported oil, good from economic, political and environmental standpoints.

My impression is that your whole premise revolves around, talk a lot and do nothing. Convince everyone that talking about hypothetical pipedreams and rejecting workable solutions out of hand is actually doing something useful.

Your tunnel vision focus on ethanol from corn as the ONLY biofuel ignores the wide picture of we need to replace oil now---not 50 years from now. You don't want more ethanol from corn? Fine---how do you suggest stimulating other feedstock sources.
What I advocate is the production of ethanol from many different sources, not just corn. And cellulose is a main alternative.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 27, 2008
"Ethanol is C2H5OH regardless of where it comes from. If it isn't, it is something else, not ethanol."

You are just being nit-picking and argumentative, Fred. You knew I was referring to the greater energy return on sugar-cane ethanol (compared with making it from corn starch), not differences in the energy of the final product.

"Since there is no workable alternative to carbon fuels(either fossil fuels, or biofuels)--a carbon tax will do nothing whatever in the transportation field except to make fuel more expensive." -- Fred Linn

And a $50/per barrel import tariff on petroleum wouldn't? (See your comment 60, and my reply at 67.) Yet your other solution (which in the past you said you did NOT favor), to subsidize production of biofuels, hides the true cost of driving from vehicle operators, and basically constitutes a subsidy from taxpayers to drivers -- hardly an incentive to conserve.

I am getting tired chasing your arguments in circles, Fred. I thought for a moment we were having a cogent dialogue. Instead, you are just throwing out whatever lame excuses to defend your stance on biofuels come to mind.

Good night.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 27, 2008
(... continued from comment 86 above)

Your next comment ("US farmers could compete quite well by switching to beets, cane or sorghum--but then you'd have no corn--and no DDG to support the livestock market.") is not only off base, but bizzare. What do you think Midwest farmers were producing before 1978, when the ethanol subsidies started? Corn, wheat and soybeans. Most livestock producers are happy to buy straight grains as feed; they don't need DDF. Your notion that farmers would switch to growing sorghum and sugar beets in order to compete with Brazilian ethanol also makes no sense. If it were more profitable than corn ethanol, they'd already be doing it. It's not, as various USDA studies have sown.

We are having a discussion here about energy policy. If you want to rant about bail-outs to other industries, fine. I don't have the time or interest to engage with you on a much broader discussion of expenditure priorities. But if your point is the simplistic one that, since other industries are getting undeserved subsidies, so should biofuels, don't expect me to agree. You seem to be saying, "We spend too much money on the military!! We should shift some of that spending to biofuels!!" Why not to improving the health system?

You are really grasping at straws, Fred, mentioning xanthun gum (which can be made from any starch, not only corn starch), the majority of which is sold as an ingredient for food (so much for the argument that dent corn is inedible: there are numerous corn products in our food) and cosmetics. The biofuel industry is in a tizzy, I know, because they have "discovered" that a corn product is being used to drill for oil. How much xanthun gum? Mmmmmm, around 6,000 tons in the Middle East, perhaps twice that amount that worldwide. In 2007, the United States alone produced 366,000,000 tons of corn, of which some 240 million tons was starch. Put another way, the oil industry's demand is about 1/20,000th of U.S. corn-starch output.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
--------""Eliminate the tariff on Brazillian ethanol, and you make US corn farmers have to compete with Brazilian sugar cane to produce ethanol." Well, yes, exactly. Ethanol that has a much higher energy yield and much lower GHG emissions on a life-cycle basis."--------

Ethanol is C2H5OH regardless of where it comes from. If it isn't, it is something else, not ethanol.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 27, 2008
Rant? Who's going of on a rant here, Fred Linn? You don't need to lecture me about subsidies: it's kind of a specialty area for me. But I wouldn't call subsidies to biofuels minor any more. Moreover, they are set to expand in line with increases in mandated volumes.

Yes, commodity payments, especially under the 2002 Farm Bill, helped depress prices for corn and soybeans. But by how much, Fred? Most analyses said that they kept corn prices somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50 cents to $1.00 below market-clearing prices. And so? Was I defending those subsidies? But allowing prices to rise to market-clearing prices is not the same as pushing huge amounts of grain and oilseeds into the fuel market which -- as we've seen -- can drive commodity prices way above production costs in the short term.

It is simply not true that "Without subsidies, farmers can't make a profit." (New Zealand farmers have been doing just fine without subsidies for a couple of decades now.) That comment suggests a rather superficial understanding of ag economics. What happens mainly (depending on the speed at which the subsidies are withdrawn) is that land values take a hit. That is why politicians are so afraid of reforming farm subsidies: they don't like the bad press of farms going up for auction. But when farms go up for auction normally only the ownership of the land changes, not how it is used.

"Eliminate the tariff on Brazillian ethanol, and you make US corn farmers have to compete with Brazilian sugar cane to produce ethanol." Well, yes, exactly. Ethanol that has a much higher energy yield and much lower GHG emissions on a life-cycle basis.

(Continued ...)
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
I still say that we need to implent biofuels ASAP for economic, political and environmental reasons.

As for electric vehicles, there are none that meet the needs and requirements of what we need our vehicles to do, now or in the forseeable future. And even if there were, there is no production, distribution or support facilities in existence to allow them to be deployed in anything except token numbers. Electric vehicles will be nothing but a pipe dream for many many years to come.

----"A technologically neutral one, like a carbon tax (which suggestion you seem to have ignorred), ........."-----------

Since there is no workable alternative to carbon fuels(either fossil fuels, or biofuels)----a carbon tax will do nothing whatever in the transportation field except to make fuel more expensive.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
Ron---you want to rant on and on about minor subsidies for farmers and ethanol production and the possibility of higher food prices. Well, we've had agricultural commodity subsidies for over 80 years----THAT is the reason you have low food prices. If you want low food prices, then you should support farm commodity subsidies. Without subsidies, farmers cann't make a profit, when farmers cann't make a profit they go out of business, when farmers go out of business there is no food for anyone, at any price. Not only no food, no agricultural products. Eliminate the tariff on Brazillian ethanol, and you make US corn farmers have to compete with Brazilian sugar cane to produce ethanol. Sugar cane is about 8X as productive as corn at producing ethanol than corn. US farmers could compete quite well by switching to beets, cane or sorghum----but then you'd have no corn---and no DDG to support the livestock market. Not only that, there are strict limits set by the USDA on sugar production to meet treaty requirements that the US buy cheap Latin American sugar.

If you want to rale about subsidies, how about subsidies to the banking industry? In the last 6 months, the federal government has thrown more money at banks than they ever have at farmers. How about the auto industry? How about massive military budgets between 1/2 an 1 TRILLION dollars per year to maintain a massive military presense in the ME to maintain oil company imports? This amounts to direct subsidies to the oil companies in my opinion. BTW---in order to drill for oil, you MUST have driller's mud. Driller's mud is made with Xantham gum, which is made from corn starch. MASSIVE amounts of driller's mud. If you say that we should drill for more oil here, and not make ethanol to avoid using corn, you would be wrong. You'll use corn either way. Besides, 98% of the corn grown in the US is dent corn, which is inedible for humans.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 27, 2008
Fred, ethanol is emblamatic. It -- especially the corn-based version -- is the biofuel that is attracting the most government support, including its latest manifestation, a proposed massive bail-out:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123008114168231965.html?mod=special_page_campaign2008_mostpop

You speak of time. There are currently four ways to ramp up biofuel use quickly over the next 5 years:

(1) Eliminate the import tariff on Brazilian ethanol so that more can come into the country.
(2) Bail out the corn-ethanol industry and encourage even more production, at the risk of driving up grain prices once again (especially if, as we almost had this past season, nature deals the farmers a bad hand). Forget reducing GHG emissions.
(3) Massively subsidize the production of fatty-acid methyl esters (conventional biodiesel), driving up the prices of vegetable oils and tallow -- beyond the hights we saw recently -- and provoking food riots in countries like Indonesia.
(4) Undertake a crash program to produce oil-bearing algae on a large scale, to hell with the cost.

There is no way that cellulosic ethanol will make more than a small dent in the nation's fuel supply over the next 5 years; the latest EIA projections forsee the industry not meeting the mandated targets. The same goes for Fischer-Tropsch diesel substitutes.

By contrast, we are already seeing big gains from conservation, including more-efficient vehicles:

http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/08/us_hybrid_sales_2008nov1.png

If biofuels were competing on their own (or with government support only for R&D) then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We'd be looking on with interest at what technologies would emerge in the contest to reduce drivers' fuel costs. But this is a discussion about policy. A technologically neutral one, like a carbon tax (which suggestion you seem to have ignorred), is likely to be more efficient than subsidizing biofuels.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
Ron---it seems to me like you are stuck on ethanol only as a biofuel. Ethanol is one biofuel, but not the only biofuel. I use it, but don't even consider it the best biofuel. E-85 is still 15% petroleum. Biodiesel can be used as 100% bio, or any % up to, and requires no modifications at all.

Methane---can be produced as biofuel, is exactly the same methane that is in natural gas so can be mixed in any % at all with no change in performance. And since methane is about 17 times more heat absorbing than CO2----using methane gas we've captured at anything over 3% concentration will actually reduce greenhouse gas warming effect, even if the remaining 97% is fossil fuel natural gas.

I've been using ethanol for 11 years, and have put over 124,000 miles on my vehicle and it is still going strong.

J-5 and J-7 aviation fuel are basically diesel and kerosene.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 27, 2008
------"I agree that we need to be preparing for the eventuality of oil prices rising again, Fred, "---------

This is my point, and the reason that I support biofuels---TIME.

We need to break our dependency on foreign oil for many reasons. First, and probably the most pressing reason, economic. Oil prices and the wealth drain of importing oil is a major reason for our current economic crisis---and will continue to cause economic woes in the future. We are facing an economic yo-yo between recession(low demand, low oil prices)---and economic recovery being squashed by rising oil prices. There will be no economic recovery as long as we have foreign oil tied around our necks like an anchor while we are trying to swim out of the deep water of economic recovery. Watch the news---every day the economic numbers are getting worse.
Political--most areas that have large oil deposits are politically hostile to us or at the very least have unrest and fighting going on that makes our dependence on oil precariously unreliable.
Environmental. We need to use renewable and sustainable resources for many environmental reasons. Whether or not you "believe" in global warming---biofuels address that issue as well as the economic and political problems as well.
Time. Biofuels can be implemented seamlessly and cheaply into the current way we do things. There is no need for more research or trying to invent something that does not exist.
-----" As for electric-only vehicles, there are new ideas emerging for increasing their range. One is to establish battery-exchange stations. The cars would be designed so that their batteries could be pulled out and a new, fresh one, inserted in less than the time it takes to fill up a car's fuel tank."-------

Nice idea. But they don't exist. Neither do the batteries or the recharging stations.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 27, 2008
I agree that we need to be preparing for the eventuality of oil prices rising again, Fred, but we still need to pay attention to cost-effectiveness. That is what this discussion is about.

As for the range of electric vehicles, clearly electric trams and trains are limited by their infrastructure.

Hybrids, and plug-in hybrids, because they have a back-up motor, are not.

As for electric-only vehicles, there are new ideas emerging for increasing their range. One is to establish battery-exchange stations. The cars would be designed so that their batteries could be pulled out and a new, fresh one, inserted in less than the time it takes to fill up a car's fuel tank.

See, for example, these links:

http://www.freshcreation.com/entry/electric_car_battery_exchange_station/

http://greenfuturecars.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/green-future-cars-battery-exchange-stations/

Admittedly, these will work mainly for passenger cars. Airplanes may ultimately have to switch to biofuels; but let them do that on their own. There is no reason on earth to subsidize their fuel or to mandate them to make the switch.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 26, 2008
Ron----you are right, there are electric vehicles available. However, they are still limited in their range. As they stand presently, they are suitable for local delivery vehicles as you mention---where they do not stray far from their base of operations, and do not need to be in continuous use, giving them time to recharge. I've lived in Europe and I've ridden on busses and trams powered by overhead powerlines. That system works well, but it is very limited in that they can only follow the route dictated by the overhead power lines. As it stands, electric vehicles do not have driving range, load capacity, or power to provide what consumers have come to want and expect with internal combustion engines.

Yup---oil prices are down right now. However, OPEC voted last week to cut production 2 million gallons per day in an effort to get prices back up. One reason that petroleum prices have plummetted is that due to the price spike, combined with the sudden onset of recession---people have done exactly what you are saying---at least as much as they can. I think it is inevitable that prices will go back up again, and I think when they do, they will go up just as rapidly as they came down. I think we need to be preparing for that eventuality.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 26, 2008
So, practically speaking, Fred, Nos. 1-10 are on schedule to start rolling out. No. 12 is way behind schedule, and No. 11 may help reduce a small amount of oil consumption, but only because of mandates, border protection and subsidies. Currently, wholesale gasoline prices are under $1.00 per gallon:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_spt_s1_d.htm

The latest national average rack (i.e., wholesale, before tax) prices for ethanol is $1.63 per gallon. On an energy basis (what counts for your hypothetical flex-fuel hybrid), it costs over $2.30 per gallon -- i.e., more than TWICE the price of gasoline.

Such price volatility would normally be a strong discouragement to buyers, and if there were no government mandates, almost nobody would be buying ethanol at the moment. But policies have assured, will assure, that no matter what, the corn ethanol industry will continue to exist and even expand.

If consumers faced a carbon tax on petroleum, however (see above), my guess is that they would choose one of the No. 1-10 options over ethanol, as well as cut down fuel use through a wide range of behavioral changes:
switch to driving a smaller vehicle; combine trips; drive more prudently; check their tire pressure more often; car pool; walk, ride a bike or take public transit more often; move closer to where they work, or take a job closer to where they live; telecommute; etc., etc., etc.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 26, 2008
Fred, now you're going over the top. Your single-minded pursuit of the notion that biofuels are the ONLY answer does you no credit.

Nos.1 through 10 on your list refer to any electric (as already DO exist, including urban delivery vehicles; we have loads of them in Europe), or partially-electric (as in plug-in hybrid). The substitution among them is the same as you explain for #11 and #12 -- i.e., the vehicle does not change, only the external source of the energy.

Several plug-in hybrids will start to roll out with the 2010 model year:

http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html

By the way, Robert Rapier, over at R-squared blog, has a good summary of the latest status of ethanol. I won't include the links, but you can find them on his blog:

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2008/12/top-10-energy-stories-of-2008.html

"The story this year was supposed to be '2nd generation ethanol production begins', but alas the over-promise, under-deliver meme that I have been critical of continues. Range Fuels had initially intended to start producing in 2008, but that was delayed to 2009 and now production isn't forecast to begin until 2010. [RS: And then it will begin at only 10 million gallons a year.] Meanwhile, other 2nd-generation ethanol companies continue to promise the world, including Coskata who claims they can make ethanol for 'under US $1.00 a gallon anywhere in the world.' (I took a good look at those claims here.) Finally, according to this source (another here), of the six cellulosic ethanol projects selected to receive $385 million in federal funding in February 2007, almost two years later only one plant is actually under construction (Range Fuels)."
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 25, 2008
_______"1. Wind-BEVs (battery electric vehicles) 2. wind-HFCVs (hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) 3.CSP-BEVs 4. geothermal-BEVs 5. tidal-BEVs 6. solar PV-BEVs 7. Wave-BEVs 8.hydroelectric-BEVs 9. a tie between nuclear-BEVs and coal-CCS-BEVs 11. corn-E85 12.cellulosic-E85. "---------

Something I notice about this list.

1. Wind_BEVs ---- there is no such thing.
2. wind-HFVCs ---- there is no such thing
3. CSP-BEVs ---- there is no such thing
4. geothermal-BEVs----there is no such thing
5. tidal-BEVs ----- there is no such thing
6. solar PV-BEVs ----- there is no such thing
7. Wave-BEVs ----- there is no such thing
8. hydroelectric BEVs-- there is no such thing
9&10nuclear/coal BEVs --there is no such thing
11. corn ethanol --- that would be a hybrid car with a flex fuel charging motor
12. cellulosic ethanol---since there is no chemical difference whatever between corn ethanol or cellulosic ethanol, that would also be a hybrid vehicle with a flex fuel charging motor.

Now, let's eliminate the choices for which there are no suitable working models that are in use and on the roads now and fill all the requirements that we need our vehicles to perform.
That leaves only #11 corn ethanol, and #12 cellulosic ethanol hybrid vehicles.
There is a choice that is not even considered.
With biofuels, there are no batteries required. Internal Combustion Engines run just fine on biofuels already. They were originally designed to run on biofuels in the first place---petroleum didn't come along until later. There was no need for petroleum to run engines before engines were invented. The very first diesel engine designed by Rudolf Diesel in 1893 ran on peanut oil. The Model T, Henry Ford's design that started the motor revolution 100 years ago this year(1908) ran on ethanol.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 25, 2008
Then I guess we'd better some laws giving govrnment subsidies to earwax.

Thank you Ron. Joy, happiness and peace to you for the holidays and the new year.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 25, 2008
"Biofuel can do ANYTHING that petroleum can do with minimal changes to our present system. Name any other technology that can do that."

Earwax. But earwax is expensive.

Happy holidays, Fred.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 24, 2008
Everyone seems to completely miss the point entirely.

Carbon is not the enemy---carbon is nature's basic unit of exchange in the energy cycle. It is WHERE the carbon comes from that makes the difference.

Biofuel can do ANYTHING that petroleum can do with minimal changes to our present system. Name any other technology that can do that.
david larson
david larson
December 23, 2008
I don't even know where to start. Of course, the article is limited in scope, that is a given. Most research works are. The best work in a given field will be intensely focused on a subject that is minutely defined.

We used to call it 'knowing everything about almost nothing.'

It's not 'nothing' because its not important, it's the microscopic focus. Not only can't you see the forest for the trees, you can't see the trees for the woody fiber cellular structure.

If you take a broader view, perhaps that of a project supervisor trying to get something complex done, you know a little about all the disciplines of those working under you, but not much. Seeing the forest.

We used to call it 'knowing almost nothing about everything.'

There are two paths that lie before us, and unless we form teams and do something other than fight among ourselves [bravo, Russ Bradford!] we will either continue to do what has been done [argue and use fossil fuel] or find ourselves with a 'mandate' like the Pickens Plan.

I find it hard to say anything bad about Pickens, at least he has a plan, and he is working for it. HOWEVER.

Wind and Natural gas? Natural gas is 80% or so methane, the same gas that comes out of landfills and sewage treatment plants and the back end of cows, and it is a powerful greenhouse gas itself.

In addition, natural gas, and methane, [and hydrogen] are difficult to compress into liquid form, so you are dealing with a low-density fuel, with only the travel distance of present battery technology.

I have severe reservations about allowing the average motorist to fumble with a CNG [compressed natural gas] fueling system, which means the return to full-service fuel pumps. Is that our new plan for ending unemployment?

Pickens has nothing to do with the current article, but just so you know what's getting implemented behind your back as you argue....

Russ, I will be looking up YOUR plan immediately

mogblog.org
William Norton
William Norton
December 23, 2008
I have a problem with both David Onkels and Fred Linn.

David,

Ordinarily I would have no problem with waiting until a technology is economically viable and letting the market take care of it. It worked for the automobile. The first Model T was $800--outrageously expensive for the average person (Tesla Roadster, anyone?). Eventually, the cost came down and the rest is history. The problem this time around is that because of the acute climate problem, we simply don't have the time. It seems a huge opportunity was missed here with the auto bailout. Why not make the bailout just a little bit more and require that 50% or more of auto production be electric? I realize there are risks involved with this as well, but since we're loaning the money anyway, can't we jump-start (no pun intended) the process? It seems to me that next to self-preservation, the most appropriate role of government is infrastructure building. Even if it takes thirty years to get the investment back, it's a trifle compared to the alternative.

Fred,

I would be careful about demonizing the Arab world. Right now, the UAE is working on Masdar City, a carbon neutral community of an estimated 50,000. This is a good thing, and quite remarkable that it is planned in a region that stands a lot to gain from keeping the status oil quo. Anyway, I bring this up because rejecting that region of the world out of hand could potentially throw the baby out with the bathwater (Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) is heavily involved with this good project).
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 23, 2008
"If progress depended on people with your attitude, we'd still be living in caves."

No, it wouldn't, but if economic progress and growth depended on people like you, it would be like living in the Soviet Union.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 23, 2008
(Continued)

However, while substaintially increasing the import tariff is unlikely, and a bad idea in any case, applying a tax on the carbon content of fuels would make sense -- and, at least in theory, IS feasible. (The difficulty lies in creating a system for accurately measuring the life-cycle emissions of biofuels in a way that would not invite a WTO challenge.)

According to the EIA (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html), the emission factors for gasoline, diesel and jet fuel are (in pounds of CO2 per gallon) are, respectively, 19.564, 22.384, and 21.095. Multiplying these numbers by 1.2 to get an approximate estimate of life-cycle emissions*, and translating them into metric units, yields the following per-gallon carbon taxes at two of the typical rates of carbon tax one hears proposed:**

Carbon tax (per tonne of CO2-eq)
-------------------------------------------
$50/tCO2-eq | $100/tCO2-eq

Gasoline ....... 0.53 ............... $1.06
Diesel ........... 0.61 .............. $1.22
Jet fuel ......... 0.57 .............. $1.15

Such taxes would favour ALL low-carbon means of providing transport. But it would also, most likely, crimp any expansion of corn ethanol (especially if the subsidies and mandates were revoked). In the process, it would: (a) generate revenues that could offset taxes elsewhere; (b) dampen petroleum demand; (c) be technologically neutral.

No, Fred, if you are looking for a way to reduce petroleum demand and promote low-carbon alternatives in a technologically neutral way, an import tariff on crude oil and oil products won't do it. A carbon tax would, however.

----------
* If a carbon tax were applied throughout the economy, upstream emissions associated with producing and processing petroleum would be taxed at source.

**$50 corresponds, approximately, to the highest price of tCO2-eq so far on the European Carbon Exchange.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 23, 2008
(Continuing ...)

In any case, the U.S. has bound its import tariff (that is to say, committed to raising it no further), at $0.525 per barrel (or 1.25 cents per gallon).

http://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff_current.asp

When a country has bound its tariff at the WTO, it commits to not raising the tariff without compensating exporters who are adversely affected. That would be a very, very expensive step.

It would also provide a windfall to domestic oil producers (and you say you don't like subsidizing the oil companies, Fred?), increasing the price they receive in the domestic market. Ethanol producers would benefit, but not as much as producers of petroleum.

On that note, David Onkels is right: an import tariff is just another way of providing protection from foreign competition, and supporting the income of domestic producers of like products. It is an equivalence well recognized in the trade and economics literature.

(To be continued ...)
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 23, 2008
Fred rightly pointed out, in response to my comment that "some ethanol producers use coal as a feedstock" that methanol and isopropyl alcohol are produced from coal, not ethyl alcohol. What I had meant to say was that some ethanol producers use coal as a source of energy for process heat.

Otherwise, Fred continues to gloss over the problems of biofuels. I assume he is joking about increasing the number of Mexican restaurants in order to obtain more oil for biodiesel. But growing more soybeans or canola so that they can be squeezed for their oil to produce biodiesel is a no-end street -- unless he cares nothing about the effects of such production on food prices, natural ecosystems, and carbon emissions, caused by diverting oil production for food elsewhere (Latin America and south-east Asia, at the moment), and cares nothing about costs.

Currently, even the cheapest oil, crude palm oil, is selling for just under $500 per tonne (having peaked at over $1200 per tonne a few weeks ago).

http://www.fao.org/es/esc/prices/CIWPQueryServlet

That is around $71 dollars per barrel, or twice the price of crude oil. Soybean oil, at $800 per tonne, costs 60% more even than that, or $113/barrel. For virtually every month over the last four decades, the wholesale price of vegetable oils has exceeded the price of crude oil. Turning it into biodiesel is a value-SUBTRACTING activity. Put it another way: as long as the price of virgin vegetable oils stays significantly above the price of petroleum, it is better for the economy to sell the vegetable oil for its highest use, and then use the profits from that to buy other things (like petroleum, or electricity from the grid, or whatever).

Fred advocates slapping a $50 per barrel import tarrif on imported crude (and presumably petroleum products). Nice round number, Fred. What calculus brought you to that?

(To be continued.)
Natasha Long
Natasha Long
December 23, 2008
"If ethanol becomes a major fuel source and economically stable viable crop, farmers themselves will switch crops to maximize ethanol yields---it will only make good economic sense."

Yay! Farmers growing fuel crops rather than food! Pushing up the price of food so that even less people can afford to eat.

"When you purchase biofuels, the money you spend supports American workers and business owners---not two bit despots, monarchs and terrorists."

Except, of course, when you buy palm oil biofuels from Indonesia and Malaysia because their workers can work for so much less than US workers and it's cheaper to import than grow your own. The fact that they've decimated an entire rainforest to do so...

However

Fred: "Perhaps you'd like to explain to us exactly how wind and solar energy reduces economic growth, employment and wealth creation. "

David: "Because they require the government to steal money from me to subsidize their existence in the market. Without that transfer from the productive sector to the politically-favored sector (wind and solar), they wouldn't exist. I don't even mind that. I just think that you shouldn't pretend that they actually compete."

And oil, coal, nuclear and gas don't get any subsidies?! Those costs haven't been borne by the taxpayer for the last 100 years or so - particularly the last 50 when governments have been so in the thrall of big fossil fuels? Take nuclear for example: tax subsidies when the plant is being built, tax subsidies during it's working life, and tax subsidies for the 200yr + of decommissioning - all costs to the consumer! And that's without what you pay for actually using the energy. Don't try the old "it's uneconomic without govt subsidies" tack, every energy generation method needs assistance in its infancy - fossils have been going over a century and still get them!
bob freeston
bob freeston
December 22, 2008
I don't see much above about geothermal. It has at least three sub types. I only see mention of volcanic geo. Ground source heat pumps have huge potential for heating, cooling and hot water loads. In most areas they are cheaper over time than oil or gas. Engineered (or enhanced) geothermal at 5,000 to 10,000 ft. in bed rock produces temps. above boiling to run steam generators and district residential heating with the remaining heat. The Germans are commercializing this at 3 to 10 megawatts. Air to air heat pumps are now available for cold climates. Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Hallowell are making equipment that can cover most or all of serious winter heat loads.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 22, 2008
------"The refiner gets his oil from Mexican restaurants. Believe me, it's not scalable. You solution is not realistic."--------

In this problem, the refiner needs:
A) more Mexican Restaurants
B) increased biodiesel oil production
C) either A or B

Your solution is incorrect. Please try again.

-------"I'm not going to parse words with you. Of course it's a tariff,..."-------

Then you are wrong.

------"If you're not going to deal straight up, you're not worth my time."-------

Then go annoy someone else with your constant whining, quibbling and nit picking. If progress depended on people with your attitude, we'd still be living in caves.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 22, 2008
Fred,
I'm not going to parse words with you. Of course it's a tariff, but it acts as an implicit subsidy for your favored economic activity. That's the purpose of tariffs. If you're not going to deal straight up, you're not worth my time.

The refiner gets his oil from Mexican restaurants. Believe me, it's not scalable. You solution is not realistic.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 22, 2008
------"That's not an implicit subsidy?"----------

No, it is a tariff.

------"The refiner's operation is not scalable, so he could never serve more than a tiny portion of the market."--------

Why not? If it is because there is not enough bodiesel fuel for him to expand his business---then what is needed is more biodiesel fuel production.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 22, 2008
Fred,
"Instead of subsidizing biofuels, how about if we place a tariff on imported oil? Say, $50 per barrel? If you don't the want the government to tax you, then you can use a biofuel."

That's not an implicit subsidy?

"Where did I ever mention the word subsidies?"

You just did.

The truth is that the technology cannot exist without subsidies or preferences, at the present time, and that most ethanol production, for instance, is only marginally energy positive.

I have a friend who buys biodiesel from a small refiner to fuel his Volkswagen Passat. He pays a small premium over the cost of diesel at the pump, and he's happy to do it, because he thinks that it is the responsible thing to do.

That's his choice. The refiner's operation is not scalable, so he could never serve more than a tiny portion of the market.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 22, 2008
---"(Note: some ethanol producers use coal as a feedstock)"-------

Methanol and Isopropyl alcohol are produced from coal.

-----"Most methane currently being captured from sewage gas is either being used for electricity generation, or for small-scale local uses."----

Then we need to produce more biomethane.

----"The economy will adjust in such a way that only oil imports will decline, not exports will decline, and imports of other goods will not change either? It is not I who is making the conjectures here."-----

Why should they? You are talking about products and markets totally unrelated to petroleum. Even markets that are related to petroleum, such as say, bulldozers and heavy equipment made by Catapillar or John Deere are diesel powered---they would require no modification to run on either biofuel or petroleum. If all cars produced are Flex Fuel, it won't matter if they are sold here and run on E-85, or sold overseas to run on petroleum, or any mix of the petroleum and ethanol.
Markets and products change everyday. So what? What difference does it make if lipstick is delivered by trucks that run on biodiesel instead of petroleum? To infer a negative response is conjecture.

----"And, by the way, Fred, you used to say you did not advocate subsidizing biofuel production. (I assumed you "merely" want to mandate its use.) I guess you didn't really mean it."---------

Instead of subsidizing biofuels, how about if we place a tariff on imported oil? Say, $50 per barrel? If you don't the want the government to tax you, then you can use a biofuel.

----"But that does not automatically lead to the conclusion that what the country needs is a subsidized crash program to produce biofuels."--------

Where did I ever mention the word subsidies? If I have, it is only in connection with the fossil fuel/nuclear industries. They maintain an army of lobbyists in Washington.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 22, 2008
"Not stripmining coal also maintains cover against erosion and sequesters carbon in the soil." -- Fred Linn

Agreed. But what does that have to do with biofuels? (Note: some ethanol producers use coal as a feedstock).

"Fertilizer is made from natural gas---methane. Biomethane is also methane, exactly the same. We have to treat sewage anyway. One way we produce methane is by capturing the methane produced when treating sewage." -- Fred Linn

Fine, but if it were economical to do so, we already would be. Most methane currently being captured from sewage gas is either being used for electricity generation, or for small-scale local uses.

"The rest is pure conjecture." -- Fred Linn

Conjecture? You advocate a massive, and expensive crash program to build hundreds of more biofuel plants -- enough to displace all petroleum use -- and you assume no effects on the imports and exports of other goods? The economy will adjust in such a way that only oil imports will decline, not exports will decline, and imports of other goods will not change either? It is not I who is making the conjectures here.

Your other comments (such as on Saudi Arabia) are general ones reflecting your concerns over oil imports. But that does not automatically lead to the conclusion that what the country needs is a subsidized crash program to produce biofuels. And, by the way, Fred, you used to say you did not advocate subsidizing biofuel production. (I assumed you "merely" want to mandate its use.) I guess you didn't really mean it.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 22, 2008
...........of any decrease in value, those assetts will be dumped in favor of other assetts preferably of a more stable or value rising nature.

Saudi Arabians and other oil producing countries have massive holdings in both real estate and treasury notes thanks to the long standing trade deficit in the oil business(which increases with each passing day).

When the Saudi's and other begin to liquidate their assetts and moving their wealth elsewhere, the value of the US $ and real estate will go from decline into a disasterous free fall. It will be exactly the same thing as a "run on the bank" when all the banks depositors try to withdraw their assetts at the same time. This is already happening. Owners of real estate in the US have seen their equity decline over $2 Trillion in the last 6 months alone. The T bill situation is even worse. The T bills are sold by auction. The amount bid determines the interest rate---therefore the ROI. The last auction did not even produce any bids equal to the amount of the bill. Meaning, if purchased, the government would pay back an amount less than the purchase price. A guarrantteed loss. Not many investors are willing to loan money on those terms. No T bill sales, no money to run the government.
As more and more investors from overseas begin to dump their investments in real estate, dollars and T bills in favor of other investments, look for the value of the dollar, real estate and T bills to decline----and when it happens, it will probably happen very quickly.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 22, 2008
------"Replacing oil by more-expensive biofuels would not mean wiping out 3/4 of the USA's foreign-trade deficit (even in gross terms, petroleum imports are only equivalent to 1/2 the current deficit),"--------

OPEC has just voted to cut oil production by 2 million barrels per day. The purpose---get the price of oil back up. My bet is that biofuels will be a bargain again and probably in the near future, say, just about long enough to squash any economic recovery brought about by low oil prices.

----------" especially as it would mean that exports of some crops (and livestock products) would likely decline, costs of other industries would increase, and so would imports of fertilizers. Those reduced exports and increased imports of other goods would offset some of the reductions in outlays on oil."--------

Fertilizer is made from natural gas---methane. Biomethane is also methane, exactly the same. We have to treat sewage anyway. One way we produce methane is by capturing the methane produced when treating sewage.

The rest is pure conjecture.

------"Fred also suggests turning clippings from road easements into biofuels. Currently, most of the cutting I witness leaves the vegetative matter on the ground. That is not "wasting" it. That is providing cover against erosion, and helping to sequester carbon in the soil."--------

Not stripmining coal also maintains cover against erosion and sequesters carbon in the soil.

Some analysts think that a trade deficit is a good thing. They reason that having dollars(assetts) in foreign hands is a good thing. They see it as foreign companies, governments, and individuals as "investing" in US dollars.
No. It means that US assetts(not only $, but also ownership of real estate, businesses, commodities and anything else of value) are no longer in American hands. Wealth is being transfered out of the country. At the first sign of .........
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 22, 2008
Fred Linn strays into balance-of-payment territory, but he does not consider costs, nor how diverting resources away from other, more productive sectors of the economy to the import-substitution sector affects the other side of the ledger.

If costs (and environmental damage) are irrelevant, and all that matters is import substitution, then the U.S. government should be subsidizing coffee production in Hawaii and Florida (to reduce our dependence on Colombia and Brazil), greenhouses to grow bananas in Wyoming (using steam heat from Old Faithful), and fertilizer production from coal.

Replacing oil by more-expensive biofuels would not mean wiping out 3/4 of the USA's foreign-trade deficit (even in gross terms, petroleum imports are only equivalent to 1/2 the current deficit), especially as it would mean that exports of some crops (and livestock products) would likely decline, costs of other industries would increase, and so would imports of fertilizers. Those reduced exports and increased imports of other goods would offset some of the reductions in outlays on oil.

Fred also suggests turning clippings from road easements into biofuels. Currently, most of the cutting I witness leaves the vegetative matter on the ground. That is not "wasting" it. That is providing cover against erosion, and helping to sequester carbon in the soil.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-------"You sir, are left to suggest a short-term substitute"--------

Biofuels can do anything that oil can.

Biofuels have been around for over 100 years, have been used widely with great success, do exactly what we need them to do, and are efficient and well proven. The fastest most advanced racing cars in the world run on biofuels.

Biofuels are clean, and safer in case of accidents and do no lasting harm to the environment in the case of spills.

Biofuels are readiily producable from a wide variety of cheap and readily available raw materials, made by workers right here in the US, and can be made locally in any area of the country. Replacement of oil by biofuels would mean wiping out about 3/4 of our foreign trade deficit. That means nothing but good news for our battered economy.

Biofuels are usable in all vehicles on the road now to some extent, and require minimal modifications to our vehicle production specifications to be usable by all vehicles. Biofuels are compatible with our current storage and distribution system and can be fully intergrated with minimal changes.

When you purchase biofuels, the money you spend supports American workers and business owners---not two bit despots, monarchs and terrorists.

Biofuels are already being used to reduce pollution and do not produce greenhouse gas effect in the atmosphere. With the use of the right biofuels, we can even reverse the effect of greenhouse gas warming.

---------""Either we get rid of oil, or it will destroy this country."

This is just hot air.

Hot Air. Very hot air."-----------

Is it? Look around, it is already happening. At the rate we are going, it may not be too long before the US economy is back to beads, blankets, and wumpum.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
Fred,
Every one of my posts contains at least one question, and you have failed to offer an answer to even one.

What is your problem?
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
Fred,
"Either we get rid of oil, or it will destroy this country."

You sir, are left to suggest a short-term substitute, and to rebut my argument, and to buttress your argument with examples.

I don't think you can do that.

"If you think these people are friends to us or the economy you are completely deluded."

They are not friends. They act in their own self interest. More often than you would grant, their interest aligns with ours. In fact, almost always.

"Oil is not king----Oil is the Great Satan. Most especially in its role in the economy."

Again, baloney. The use of oil to increase our economic well-being has led to huge increases in economic growth and enormous increases in wealth.

"Either we get rid of oil, or it will destroy this country."

This is just hot air.

Hot Air. Very hot air.

Petroleum will the primary source of energy for transportation for at least twenty years. The very long life of existing vehicles ensures that, regardless of what happens with fuel technology.

If energy technology changes faster than I think it will, then the market will drive changes in fuel use very quickly.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
------"We should buy oil from those producers who will selll it for the least.
Since the middle east producers have the lowest costs, they will always be important suppliers. To the extent that they accumulate dollars from the transaction, they will have to repatriate those dollars as investments in the US. When they do that, they become invested in the success of the US economy."---------

No. It is selling the equity of this country. Middle East oil interests have no interest in anything at all other than extorting as MUCH wealth as they possibly can from us---by any means possible. Just this week OPEC announced plans to cut production 2 million barrels per day in order to get prices back up.

If you think these people are friends to us or the economy you are completely deluded.

Oil is not king----Oil is the Great Satan. Most especially in its role in the economy.

Either we get rid of oil, or it will destroy this country.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
Speaking of foreign producers,
They might even, in a rational world, invest in research in renewable energy, since they are rational men, and they too, can see a post-petroleum future. Railing against them is not productive. Doing business with them now benefits us all, because we purchase energy, in whatever form, for the least cost. You can debate about externalities, but, in the short term, oil is king.

The fact is that they do make those investments.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
"Maybe we are not so far apart as you think. I view the military budget as a subsidy to the oil industry. I think we'd be far better off spending the money here to make biofuels than fighting a war over oil reserves in the Middle East."

I'm sorry, but I think that the military budget is a response to a constitutional mandate. The primary mandate, in fact.

It is my opinion that we are not fighting that war over oil reserves.

We should buy oil from those producers who will selll it for the least.
Since the middle east producers have the lowest costs, they will always be important suppliers. To the extent that they accumulate dollars from the transaction, they will have to repatriate those dollars as investments in the US. When they do that, they become invested in the success of the US economy. Do you see why, in a global economy, that is desirable?
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
------"Where we part ways is if you ask the government to steal from me to produce power or create fuel in ways that you think, for your own reasons, are desirable."--------

Maybe we are not so far apart as you think. I view the military budget as a subsidy to the oil industry. I think we'd be far better off spending the money here to make biofuels than fighting a war over oil reserves in the Middle East.

We can do anything with biofuels that can be done with oil, and in many ways biofuels are superior. For one thing, they won't run out.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
Fred,
"Exactly what I think of your statement." You didn't exactly answer my question, did you? You don't win by changing the subject.

"Perhaps you'd like to explain to us exactly how wind and solar energy reduces economic growth, employment and wealth creation. "

Because they require the government to steal money from me to subsidize their existence in the market. Without that transfer from the productive sector to the politically-favored sector (wind and solar), they wouldn't exist. I don't even mind that. I just think that you shouldn't pretend that they actually compete.

I give up.
You can invest your own money, or convince others to invest theirs, any way you wish to produce fuel and power in any one of the ways you propose, most of which, in my estimation, are uneconomic.

There are huge pools of investment capital available for emerging technologies.

Where we part ways is if you ask the government to steal from me to produce power or create fuel in ways that you think, for your own reasons, are desirable.

As long as you pretend that RE is all good and conventional sources of electricity and fuel production are all bad, instead of acknowledging tradeoffs, your arguments will fail and you'll be just a cheerleader.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
----"There is not enough arable land to support all U.S. autos on biomass ethanol. "---------

None is required. Biodiesel can be produced from saltwater algae and is being produced now.

Ethanol can be produced from wood and any other type of cellulosic plant material including aquatic plants and crop waste.

All carbon released by burning a biofuel had first to be removed from the atmosphere by the plant from which the biofuel was produced. It is impossible to put more CO2 into the atmosphere than was removed from the atmosphere. No CO2 removed, no plant, no biofuel.

This is the carbon/energy cycle that is the basis of life on earth and has been going on for about 3.5 billion years. Plants take in CO2 and water and produce oxygen and hydrocarbons, animals breathe in oxygen and convert potential chemical energy in hydrocarbons to kenetic energy, and exhale CO2. You do exactly the same thing when you walk and breathe that a car driving down the road on ethanol does.
Warren Reynolds
Warren Reynolds
December 21, 2008
ALL
Prof. Jacobson is correct in his analysis.
As an ex-nuclear engineer (Ph.D.), I know nuclear's "dirty little secrets". Even the mini-nuclear reactors proposed are both too costly and dangerous. The fuel releases Kr-85 and Xe-133 into the atmosphere which the later transmutes into radioactive Iodine which travels to our thyroids. I can give many more examples. How about the Plutonium atmospheric dust at 100,000 ft throughout the entire globe due to an upper atmosphere rocket power plant accident. Each sqare foot (ground) is equal to human body burden when the Pu falls to the ground (altho it is not right now). The Rad Lab has this data.
One MWe wind towers require only about 5 acres not 100 acres and that could be on steep hillsides or hilltops. My company has contracts to build a 24/7 300 MWe wind-solar-hydrogen power plant in S. California.
There is not enough arable land to support all U.S. autos on biomass ethanol. Ethanol still burns to carbon dioxide and has a >10 yr. "half-life" in the atmosphere. The pH of the ocean is decreasing due to the dissolved carbon dioxide that kills coral. NO, ethanol is not the answer.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-----"In the rough comparisons of cost vs energy output per dollar on the ProfitableRenewableEnegy.com site, micro-nuclear looks attractive where conventional nuclear is horrible. As you can read in my book, I'm no fan of nuclear. It's too expensive and has too many problems, yet mico-nuclear seems to be far better."-----------

Most small application power plants use generators powered by diesel engines right now.
With biofuels, we simply fill the tanks up with biodiesel and keep right on using the same equipment we always have in exactly the same way we always have.
I don't think micronuclear can even be seriously compared on a cost basis with that. $ Millions vs. 0(or perhaps the cost of one or two fuel line filter replacement cartridges).
Don't forget--the reactor only produces heat---you will also need boilers and steam turbines before you can hook up the reactor to the generators.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-------"Bombs and Chernobyl aside, tell me where. The military budget is irrelevant. By rejecting this interesting technology out of hand with scare-rhetoric, you marginalize the rest of your arguments."-------

Exactly what I think of your statement. There's nothing wrong with being scared of something that is dangerous. It keeps you cautious.........and alive. Even my dogs know that.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-------"and owe their existence to government subsidies, tax preferences, or mandates on utilities to purchase the power."--------

These were built long before subsidies, tax preferences, mandates or even a government in Washington----or even a Washington DC at all.

-------"These investments drain capital away from more productive uses, reducing economic growth, employment, and wealth creation for us all."------

So do high fuel prices. The difference is, with wind and solar energy, we just keep right on doing what we have always done no matter what the price of oil, coal or uranium does.
Perhaps you'd like to explain to us exactly how wind and solar energy reduces economic growth, employment and wealth creation. Well, if you want to sell us oil, coal and uranium I guess it would interfer with wealth creation. Electricity is electricity though. Hairdryers, TVs and refrigerators however don't care where it comes from----if it is electricity, they'll eat it.

------"These investments also drain money away from research into potentially more productive ways of generating power and fuel."---------

No research needed. Wind, solar, geothermal, and biofuels have been around for thousands of years---are in use now and well proven. Even the Romans used water from volcanic hot springs to heat their baths, a form of geothermal energy.
If you want to continue to do research to find more productive ways of generating power and fuel, fine. I don't think you'll find anything cheaper than free though.

--------"As soon as governments enter the picture, existing inefficient technologies become enshrined and develop political constituencies that stifle innovation and redeployment of capital into more efficient uses. The production of ethanol in the US is a perfect example of this problem."------

No, the oil, coal and nuclear industries are the perfect example of this.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-------"You've ignored day/night considerations for wind and solar, and the lunar tide cycle for tide."------------------

For centuries the Dutch have derived power from water wheels from locks attached to the dyke system. At low tide, the locks are opened and filled with water by tidal action. At high tide, the gates are closed trapping the water in the lock. The water is released from the lock to turn a water wheel and released to the ocean by a raceway. At low tide, the gates are opened again and the locks are refilled.
The wind blows at night as well as in the day. The wind turns archimedean screw pumps on windmills that pump water into large holding tanks. The water is then released across water wheels that turn trip hammers in a factory that produces steel. This has been going on for 400 years.
Photosynthesis has two cycles energy capture, and energy conversion. Solar energy is captured by the plants and stored as ATP during the light cycle. The stored energy is converted to glucose using atmospheric CO2 and water during the dark cycle. We can then make biofuels from the plants, and use it whenever we want. Biofuels are pure solar energy converted to chemical form. YOU run on biofuels, and you are capable of performing work at night as well as daylight.

------"That's not the point, however. The problem is that wind generation facilities are very inefficient producers of electricity"-----------

That is not true. The fuel to drive the trip hammers in the steel factory is exactly the same today as it was when it was built 400 years ago. Free. Show me ANY coal fired or nuclear power plant that can run 400 years and never need a penny for fuel costs. Wind and solar power are ridiculously cheap when the projected lifetime of the equipment and fuel costs over the useful lifetime are included.
Russell Bradford
Russell Bradford
December 21, 2008
Okay, the last part of my response to the comments on my comment.

Wind and solar and tides are all variable forms of production, true, but that is a relatively easy problem to solve and is being solved today. Add a flow battery to any and or all of those and not only does wind generated electricty gain an immediate improvement (upwards of 30%), it also can be stored for hours, days or even weeks depending on the storage capacity of the system. I won't go into detail but this is being used today and flow batteries are not new technology. They are being used all over the world.

As I said before, we need to get started today and the PRE-Plan would allow each and every one of us to decide what and how much and how fast we want to solve the problems. Here's an interesting graph of what has been happening to energy, oil imports and gas. Go to mtlake.selfip.net:8080/EnergyPrices.html . As it shows, electricity is getting more expensive and tracks oil imports despite the fact that little electricity is generated by oil. Our economy is in the pits and will be for at least a decade and OPEC and the rest of the oil producing countries are prepared to bleed us for every dime they can. I like the PRE-Plan because it allows individuals to choose their own destiny and if they want flex fuel and bio-mass or they want all electric with electricty from solar, wind or ocean, fine, its their choice not some politician who's being funded by farm, oil, or the utilities.

As for costs. Once the coastal cities begin flooding more frequently, the cost of what is being proposed will be miniscule. With a democratic plan that allows people to invest their own dollars, the investor gets to determine what makes the most sense and provides the best return. Even without the PRE-Plan, the profitablity may be irrelevant. If you are in a sinking boat it would seem absurd to debate which means of plugging the leak is most profitable. We squandered the last 35 years and we are out of time.
Russell Bradford
Russell Bradford
December 21, 2008
As for transportation. As I point out in my book, flex fuels will be needed and if bio-fuels make sense, fine. So far there is a great deal of misinformation about bio-fuel on both sides and most of it comes from people that stand to gain or lose. The plan I designed (ProfitableRenewableEnergy.com) allows ordinary people to vote for the winners with their dollars rather than ask the government so subsidize one and not the other. As we can clearly see with the billions in Ethanol subsidies that didn't make sense, leaving it up to the government will end up favoring the well connected. Other bio-fuels likely make more sense. I saw a show on kudzu that looked interesting.

I realize that today there are no batteries currently up to the task of powering cars as we'd like (300 mile range, great acceleration, unlimied size and weight, etc), and until that happens we need to use flex fuel or alt fuel vehicles, but they still have emissions and still add to gloabal warming. There are technolgies that are promising and may hit the market soon, but we can't simply wait. We either need to compromise on the types of vehicles, the fuel, or just resign ourselves to living on a less hospitable planet. What I like about the PRE-Plan is that it allows me to invest and secure my energy for upwards of 30 years. I doubt it will go anywhere because I don't have the $59 million to spend on advertising that T Boone Pickens does. I believe the plan is sound, that it allows for flex-fuel to fill the gap between now and when all-electric makes financial sense and it allows those with the money to buy a Tessla and a Chevy Volt today and still make economic sense of it. The PRE-Plan is not a threat to anyone other than the electric utilities which stand to lose their monopoly and some of the immense profits they make off of ever single person in the country. The PRE-Plan is more like a co-op but instead of being non-profit, every investor can end up ahead.
Russell Bradford
Russell Bradford
December 21, 2008
I differ than a lot of people in that I don't care what solutions we choose, as long as we choose soon and choose one that addresses climate and energy independance. The problems the world face are not ten years from now, they are here today and must be dealt with today and even if we start right this second, it will take at least half a century no matter what and it will cost trillions.

I am no fan of nuclear as you'll read in my book, but micro-nuclear sounds like almost a different beast. The Hyperion system is different than the Toshiba system which boasts a fuel life of 30 years instead of 5 to 7 years. The waste is a problem, but far more managable than conventional nuclear and less dangerous than the waste from coal mining or oil and as someone pointed out, the risk of methane hydrate releases is terrifying and is quite real. A terrorist wishing to make a dirty bomb doesn't need to dig up a 50 ton factory sealed and secured micro-reactor, they can swipe it from any hospital or even your dentist's office, and the material is better suited for their needs. You don't need security details, just sensors. If you've ever done construction, you don't dig down 20 feet in a matter of minutes, it takes hours if not days.

The point here isn't that I am in favor of micro-nuclear or solar or wind or bio-mass, its that we need to start doing and stop the debate thats been going on for 35 years. Micro-nuclear, wind, solar etc all are releatively quick (a few years) to go from project inception to deployment even with the regulatory hurdles.

In the rough comparisons of cost vs energy output per dollar on the ProfitableRenewableEnegy.com site, micro-nuclear looks attractive where conventional nuclear is horrible. As you can read in my book, I'm no fan of nuclear. It's too expensive and has too many problems, yet mico-nuclear seems to be far better.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 21, 2008
"Every KwH generated by RE means 1 KwH less that must be generated by non RE sources."

That is so not true. You've ignored day/night considerations for wind and solar, and the lunar tide cycle for tide.

"All that I have proposed is to use resources that currently go to waste."
You've proposed a protocol that requires large carbon-producing inputs for the production of miniscule amounts of fuel.

"Denmark, Germany, Republic of Ireland, Spain, Portugal,Latvia, Estonia, who get between 20 and 40% of their power needs from wind now."

That, sir, is baloney.

That's not the point, however. The problem is that wind generation facilities are very inefficient producers of electricity, and owe their existence to government subsidies, tax preferences, or mandates on utilities to purchase the power. These investments drain capital away from more productive uses, reducing economic growth, employment, and wealth creation for us all.

These investments also drain money away from research into potentially more productive ways of generating power and fuel.

As soon as governments enter the picture, existing inefficient technologies become enshrined and develop political constituencies that stifle innovation and redeployment of capital into more efficient uses. The production of ethanol in the US is a perfect example of this problem.

" Thousands upon thousands of people however have died as a result of exposure to nuclear radiation."

Bombs and Chernobyl aside, tell me where. The military budget is irrelevant. By rejecting this interesting technology out of hand with scare-rhetoric, you marginalize the rest of your arguments.


By the way, the most interesting comment I've seen so far was by Ross Anderson:
"Point of use, Distributed electricity generation is what electrification of the third world is becoming."

Exactly. They have no existing infrastructure to stifle innovation.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
-----"For power generation, wind, solar, tidal, and biomass are completely unsuited to large scale usage. Investments in those facilities do not reduce the investments required of public utilities for consistent supply, and therefore reduce only minimally the production of carbon, since the power generation facilities required to produce reliable power will most like be coal in the short term and nuclear in the long term."----------

Every KwH generated by RE means 1 KwH less that must be generated by non RE sources.

-------"On a global scale, since China will complete a new coal-fired power generating facility every five-and-a-half days, they matter not at all."-----------

What China does in no way changes what it is our responsbility to do.

-------"Small scale nucear generation suits the enthusiasm for distributed generating facilities, but exaggerated fears of the difficulties of waste disposal and terrorist bogeymen make the perfect the enemy of the merely very good."-------------

No one has ever died from exposure to a solar panel or a windmill. Thousands upon thousands of people however have died as a result of exposure to nuclear radiation.
If terrorists are bogeymen, why do we have 140,000 military personell in Iraq and are getting ready to send 30,000 more to Afghanistan? The US military budget for 2009 is $900 Billion. That's a lot of people and money to chase bogeymen.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 21, 2008
David----

------"You can't be serious. How about the cost of collection and transportation, not only in terms of labor but of fossil fuel use?"------

Cripes David!!! What do you want? Pies to fall out of the sky and land in your lap? All that I have proposed is to use resources that currently go to waste. We have to mow medians anyway. Resources that can produce biofuels. Fischer-Tropsch process can produce long chain hydrocarbons suitable for diesel use. It doesn't even make any sense at all to use fossil fuels to produce biofuels. Most agricultural equipment of the type needed are already diesel and require no modification to use biofuels at all. Compare that to petroleum production. We go half a world away to the Middle East or the arctic, drill 2 1/2 to 5 miles down through solid rock, transport the raw material half way around the world through some of the harshest climates on earth, THEN refine it into fuel, THEN transport the fuel ALL the way back to get more raw material. THAT sounds like a pretty stupid plan to me!

------"For power generation, wind, solar, tidal, and biomass are completely unsuited to large scale usage. Investments in those facilities do not reduce the investments required of public utilities for consistent supply, "--------

I'm sure that will come as quite a surprise to the people in Denmark, Germany, Republic of Ireland, Spain, Portugal,Latvia, Estonia, who get between 20 and 40% of their power needs from wind now. I lived in Riga, Latvia and rode everyday on busses and trolleys powered by the wind. You'd better tell them wind is completely unsuited to large scale usage because they are building more wind generators as fast as they can put them together in spite of high costs due to production capacity lagging behind demand as much as 70%.
Robert Bostick
Robert Bostick
December 21, 2008
If you were to search the Internet for the term 'methane hydrate explosions' and then linked that term to one of the following: oil drilling, carbon sequestration, North Face permafrost, bore hole injection, mud volcanoes, pingos, and global warming...you may come to the realization that there is a critically urgent requirement for mankind to curtail CO2, and methane emissions.

It is fact that the permafrost is disappearing due to global warming which affects the poles more than any other geographic local on the planet. What this means is that the gigatons of methane hydrate under the permafrost, maybe 5-10 meters down, poses a risk to mankind as heat reaches into the permafrost and causes the dissociation of the methne hydrates. The arctic is the only place on earth where methane hydrate forms other than in oceans depths at great pressure and extremely low temperatures. In the Arctic methane hydrates form below the permafrost at atmospher, where there is adequate pressure.

In 1942 oil companies discovered that it was methane hydrate in its ice form that clogged its pipelines. They used salt water to flush out the hydrates. The oil companies also used a barrel of fresh water to retrieve a barrel of oil. That much water from the lakes, streams and ponds of the arctic and subarctic stayed in the ground along with the other chemicals mainly phosphoric acid which is a necessary building block for DNA and RNA formation.

These fluids mixed with undecomposed material and erosion of rock leeching other minerals below the permafrost creates a sludge or soup that emits methane. Methane molecules then makes the water its hydrate bride. Because each molecule of the ice latice can store heat at 400 F with out melting the ice that surrounds the molecule is an implosion or explosion waiting for the right temperature change.

Just take a look at the number of reports of "mysterious explosions" around oil rigs and carbon sequestration sites.
David Onkels
David Onkels
December 20, 2008
Missing here is any consideration of cost, consistency, and economies of scale, with the exception of the mention of modular nuclear and geothermal.

Fred Linn: "There are huge areas of highway medians, road right of ways, park areas and such that have to be mowed and maintained. We could use this waste plant material to produce biofuels. As it is, it is simply left to waste."

You can't be serious. How about the cost of collection and transportation, not only in terms of labor but of fossil fuel use?

For power generation, wind, solar, tidal, and biomass are completely unsuited to large scale usage. Investments in those facilities do not reduce the investments required of public utilities for consistent supply, and therefore reduce only minimally the production of carbon, since the power generation facilities required to produce reliable power will most like be coal in the short term and nuclear in the long term. On a global scale, since China will complete a new coal-fired power generating facility every five-and-a-half days, they matter not at all.

Small scale nucear generation suits the enthusiasm for distributed generating facilities, but exaggerated fears of the difficulties of waste disposal and terrorist bogeymen make the perfect the enemy of the merely very good.

I could go on...
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 20, 2008
Therese----I agree with you 100% about nuclear energy, especially the micro-reactors. TERRIBLE idea. It is just ASKING for trouble.

------"The only source of biofuels I see as useful is from waste recycling...."---

OK. How about crop wastes? Corn stover(cobs, stalks, leaves etc.) account for over 90% of the plant volume produced. Cellulosic ethanol can be produced from stover----and the remaining residue depending on the process used is either ash or compost. Both high grade natural fertilizers.
This is also true of almost any kind of agricultural crop from apples to zuccinnis.
There is waste biomass dredged out of canals and waterways in the form of fast growing aquatic plants that must be removed to keep the waterways open and navigable.
There are cull saplings that must be removed from managed timber stands so that the remaining trees grow tall and straight for lumber and do not compete for light and nutrients. Culls are removed at a rate of 2,000-3,000 per acre and each culled tree provides about 1 ton pulpable wood by USDA estimates. Current ethanol yields using Ficher-Tropsch process is about 70 gallons per ton. Currently, most culls are simply stacked up and burned to reduce the danger of fire or insect damage. Use of culls for pulping purposes is decreasing due to decreasing demand for paper products due to electronic data storage and increased use of recycling. This is a case of recycling to "save trees" that are going to be destroyed anyway----if we make ethanol from them, we put the energy stored in the cellulose to good use instead of just burning it off and wasting it in a brush pile.
There are huge areas of highway medians, road right of ways, park areas and such that have to be mowed and maintained. We could use this waste plant material to produce biofuels. As it is, it is simply left to waste.
Therese Shellabarger
Therese Shellabarger
December 20, 2008
Even micro-nuclear reactors produce nuclear waste, and it's 5 years not 30. Granted, it's a "softball-sized" waste, but nonetheless, I don't think we have solved how to store it after it's been used. You can read more about it at Hyperion Power Generation (Los Alamos, NM) website: http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/
Also, each reactor apparently has to have a security detail of some kind to prevent wannabe terrorists from digging them up. Can we say "dirty nuclear bomb"?

I'm all for alternatives, but I want something less dangerous which means solar, wind, geothermal (which is a really good source in earthquake country), tidal, etc. The only source of biofuels I see as useful is from waste recycling including vegetable oils, garbage, manure, etc. -- we need to do waste recycling anyway and stop dumping stuff in the ocean which is killing plankton and causing bacterial growth that is harming marine life.
Ross Anderson
Ross Anderson
December 20, 2008
Point of use, Distributed electricity generation is what electrification of the third world is becoming. Because of its model of efficiency and extremely low resource requirements. Gee, could that be a model for rolling out new alternative electricity products in the first world? It would really lower peoples hackles a lot if all this wonderful new energy technology was so small, so unobtrusive that nobody cared. Its time to go small...
Fernando Diaz
Fernando Diaz
December 20, 2008
I have seen so many "Satanic" comments on Biomass, I think people has to thing deeper and widely, we are in the Caribbean and we are putting together two biomass project 1) from banana trees, we will be using 1,000,000 banana trees cut every month after they been harvest and wasted away and 2) from sugar cane factory after they take out the sugar, we will give jobs to thousand people and re-establish long past local lost economies, so maybe is real "not every biomass is the same".
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
(from Russell's article)
-------"One of the things we all know to be true but haven't found a way to quantify are the hidden costs of gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. There are health costs, terrorism tied to our Middle East dealings over oil, military expenditures, and on and on. We all know that a gallon of gasoline should cost closer to $10/gallon, we just can't figure out how to get from the current $2 to the $10 figure, nor do any of us want that. What we want is for these sticky problems to go away and for us to be able to drive as far and fast as we wish and for it to cost little or nothing and cause no pollution and no hardship."----------

With biofuels we can do all of those things. Biofuels are low pollution. They contain no sulphur compounds, and produce lower NOX compounds which combine with moisture in the air to produce sulphuricand nitric acids---what makes acid rain acid. It is impossible to raise atmospheric CO2 levels with biofuels. Every carbon atom burned in a biofuel is only there because it was first removed from the atmosphere by the plant from which the biofuel was produced. It is impossible to have carbon in a biofuel that was not removed from the atmosphere previously, therefore you cann't raise CO2 levels with biofuels. We are already using biofuels to reduce pollution in problem areas.
Biofuels can be produced in almost any geographic area of the world from almost any type of plant material available. We are not tied to the geopolitical inequality of distribution that makes petroleum a terrorist tool. With no need for petroleum, we have no need to even maintain a presence in the Middle East, let alone fight wars to a hold on oil reserves.
The price of biofuels like all commodities will be dependent on availbility of raw materials and cost of processing. Plant material is widely available, and as processing capablity expands, cost will decrease. Biofuels will be cheap.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
Russell---why bother with changing the vehicles? We do not need to change the vehicles, the vehicles we have work just fine and do everything we need them to do. All we need to change is the fuels that they run on. Flex Fuel vehicles are in production now, and have been for years. They do everything that petroleum only vehicles do, and cost the same to produce. We could mandate that all new vehicles sold should be flex fuel capable with far less cost and disruption than we had mandating air bags. Diesel engines already are capable of running on biofuel with no modification at all.
Compare this to electric vehicles. Hybrids are expensive. Adding as much as 1/4 or more to vehicle production costs. Not to mention the fact that the environmental damage from relying on battery production is unknown but I think would be significant. Plug in trades petroleum pollution for coal pollution. Coal pollution is even worse than petroleum pollution. Not only from smokestacks. Coal mining is the most environmentally damaging thing we can do. Even if we COULD suddenly clean up all the smokestacks and capture the CO2(which we cann't)---coal still comes from mines. There is no such thing as "Clean Coal" and there never will be.
I'm sorry Russell, but I find a lot of assumptions in your reasoning that I don't go along with.
----"The above formulas won't work as well if we assume that automakers can boost the average gas mileage to 60 miles per gallon, yet that ignores the reality of our need to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil and to address climate change."--------
If we use biofuels, we address dependence on foreign oil and climate change. We also address the problem of increasing costs due to resource depletion(petroleum) by replacing it with a renewable resource which we can provide in whatever quantities we need.
Russell Bradford
Russell Bradford
December 19, 2008
Fred: Given a profitable means of individuals investing in renewable energy to offset their current electric bill, alt-energy vehicles make economic sense. See my post at http://preplan.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/the-auto-industry-can-be-saved/ for an explanation if you are interested.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
--------"Strange that agriculture and energy are being discussed in the same sentence!"-----------

Our energy policy has been the same as that used by the cavemen, hunter/gatherer. We hunt for fossil fuels, we dig them up, we burn them, then we hunt for more fossil fuels.
Agriculture is the single invention by mankind that allowed a stable food supply that made cities and civilization possible. Agriculture is the single innovation that allowed man the freedom from mere subsistence that makes all of civilization possible.
It is time to move from caveman to modern agriculture in our energy policy.
Ethanol can be made from any type of plant material at all, including wood---and we've been able to do it commercially for over 120 years. All of the vehicles on the road today can run just fine on a blend of up to 30% ethanol, and flex fuel vehicles that can run on up to 85% ethanol make up about 8 million of the vehicles on the road now, are in production now, and cost almost the same as conventional vehicles.
Diesel engines can run on biodiesel with no modification whatever. Biodiesel can be mixed with petroleum in any proportion with no loss in performance to meet any need in availability.
Both ethanol or biodiesel are liquids and complely compatible with our current storage and distribution systems with very little or no modification.
Biofuels can be made from a very wide choice of feedstock inputs suitable to almost any geographic area from tropical to sub arctic. And they are cheap to produce, in some cases the feedstock is free for the taking, as in the case of cellulosic ethanol.
Biofuels contain no sulphur, and are extremely low polluting.

The auto industry is shutting down plants right now because people cann't afford to buy the cars they are producing now. How do you expect them to sell expensive vehicles with exotic fuel needs with no current supply or distribution options?
Frank J. Heller
Frank J. Heller
December 19, 2008
I do wish people would begin to regionalize and even localize these kinds of studies since the results vary widely. This sounds like one of those NYTIMES magazine commentaries, and is largely irrelevant to where I live in Maine.

Bio-fuels are booming, primarily since the N.E. Forest biomass is growing 2-3% above current use. Global warming and CO2 emissions have been very good for growing things....there is a very positive benefit few want to admit.

Hydropower built the New England economy in the early 1800's, in fact the first patent for an electric generator was signed by Thomas Jefferson in 1821 for one built in Maine. Enormous latent potential to turn Maine into a net exporter and make many local communities into recruiters of energy intensive industry by providing cheap, abundant, reliable power.

Fuels are a problem; not only here but around the world.

The author doesn't really distinguish between fuels and electricity; and that's a shame since he failed to make assumptions about conversions to multifueled vehicles or electric powered ones.

We can convert both organic solid waste and liquid sewerage into bio-methane and upgrade it into pipeline-quality gas or compress it for use in NGVehicles....but we need vehicles that will run on natural bio-methane or hybrids using electricity.

Sun for electricity is not cost effective---3 hrs. of weak winter sun today, snow for the next three days; and wind is iffy and plagued by distribution costs. Big off shore wind farms are being 'marketed' but shy on cost details.

The commodity which is replacing fossil fuels are wood/fiber pellets. Indeed for $2,000 a farmer, landscaper, tree trimmer can by a pellet mill and convert 'green waste' into a fuel that can be burned for heat or used in a gasifier with a stirling engine to generate electricity.

We always enjoy the 'view' from S. California....keep writing.
Bonnie Yelverton
Bonnie Yelverton
December 19, 2008
As Jay Rosenberg says, you have to take "scale, location and logistics" into consideration when considering alternate fuels.
I expect that Mark Jakobsen did include them in connection with "not only their potential for delivering energy for electricity and vehicles, but also their impacts on global warming, human health, energy security, water supply, space requirements, wildlife, water pollution, reliability and sustainability."
Obviously, where there are great thermal resources, such as in Northern California, they would rank higher than some other resources. Wave energy isn't much use as a local resource in the midwest. Wind has to be supplemented with something else when the wind doesn't blow - but the newest 3 MW turbines allow much greater generation of energy per acre than small 50 kw models, of course!

As we can read here (and elsewhere) the logistics and output of solar power will vary from area to area. I assume that these have all been part of Jakobsen's equations. We don't need just one type of energy, but many, so that it can be sourced as locally as possible,

I, too, am much distressed at Obama's selection of energy and agriculture people enamored of ethanol. I think Vilsak's job as Agricultural Secretary must be to remove subsidies from factory farms and support organics more. Ethanol is the baby of factory farms and their lobbies. I don't think Vilsak is the person for the job. Strange that agriculture and energy are being discussed in the same sentence!
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
Incidentally---biofuels are the only technology mentioned that are not an "either/or" choice.
E-85 ethanol is still 15% petroleum. And ethanol can be delivered in any % desired by mixing pumps and is usable in flex fuel engines up to E-85.

Biodiesel is also completely compatible in any % mix from 2% to 100% with any diesel engine without major modification. The only problem is the use of a high biofuel mix initially can cause fuel line filter clogging due to sludge and varnishes left from petroleum. All you do is replace the fuel line filter---that is what they are for.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
John Pisciotta-------"As an alternative energy researcher I must correct the notion that all biofuels are the same. They are not. Consumption of food and fresh water to produce fuel is foolish. However, rapid growth of algal biomass which includes lipids and proteins can soak up carbon dioxide AND pollutants from nutrient-rich, otherwise unusable wastewaters.

Algal biofuels/biomass may therefore prove an effective solution to multiple problems including water pollution."---------------

Exactly.

People are stuck on the idea of ethanol made from corn. Corn is only one source of ethanol, and that is only as a by product of feed production.
Ethanol can be produced far more efficiently from the same facilities, using the same fermentation process by using other crops such as sugar cane, sugar beets, or sorghum. If ethanol becomes a major fuel source and economically stable viable crop, farmers themselves will switch crops to maximize ethanol yields---it will only make good economic sense. If ethanol is the main focus of production---why plant a crop that only produces 400 gal/acre when you can plant a crop that produces 3,200 gallons/acre?

Also, why all the one sided "biofuels increase pollution because of fossil fuels used in production" arguement. Wrong. Biofuels are not causing increased pollution---it is STILL the fossil fuels causing the pollution. Example---"fertilizer is made from natural gas which is a fossil fuel". Natural gas is methane. We can make methane from biologic sources also. We have to treat sewage anyway. We can make fertilizer from biomethane exactly the same way we make fertilizer from natural gas----it is what we chose to input that makes the difference. If we are making biofuels, we can use biofuels for cultivation, we do not need to use fossil fuels.
Jay Rosenberg
Jay Rosenberg
December 19, 2008
My company has developed critical energy components that greatly increase the efficiency of most Renewable Energy (RE) venues and would produce copious amounts of RE at $.05/kWh or efficiently use thermal energy from fossil and/or bio fuels. RET, our low cost, high efficiency thermal engine would bring quantum improvement to CSP, Solar Thermal/ CHP, Geothermal (GT), or "semi"-GT e.g., heat pumps net energy and its levelized costs. A variant is a multi-fuel (including biofuel) hi efficiency engine (MFSD) which can power 150 MPG, $5,000 made in US autos and save the US 1 Billion barrels/oil annually. The cost savings from transportation would enable every family to purchase in-situ RE home systems. Chemical fuels still contains 100x the power/weight as batteries. Globally, having locally grown and produced biofuel powering MFSD green generators, costing less than a Vespa, using micro-economics would create an enlightened, repowered world economy. It works for West. Civilization too: US biowaste coupled with MFSD could supply all the automotive power. The DOE computes biowaste as providing 50 Billion gallons/year just from corn stover. Alternatives to cellulosic conversion exist.

The paper misses critical factors such as: scale, location and logistics. .My company is engaged in enterprise to produce100% renewable electricity for our hemisphere, ramped in geometrically larger stages, in an an est 7 years, and cloned globally. Fortunately, we did not read prof Jacobsons paper, but we have sufficient technical data and models to dispute. Final point, energy is too important to leave to well intentioned academics, in formal settings. People may fault my immodesty but has any reviewer asked how would this paper's assertions be altered if, here if we want it, improved technology were applied to establish long distance high efficiency Grid transmission? Sannerwind@gmail.com
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
December 19, 2008
-------""That is exactly the wrong place to be spending our money. Biofuels are the most damaging choice we could make in our efforts to move away from using fossil fuels," Jacobson said. "We should be spending to promote energy technologies that cause significant reductions in carbon emissions and air-pollution mortality, not technologies that have either marginal benefits or no benefits at all."--------

Just plain wrong. Biofuels are required by law to reduce air pollution now in high pollution markets and have proven very effective for the last 20 years. This is only using ethanol at a 10% blend. Not only is ethanol far more effective at reducing air borne combustion pollutants, it is far less toxic than the MTBE it replaced. A study by Ford found that running E-85 in one of their flex fuel vehicles reduced pollutants by over 70%. Higher blends will only increase efficiency. Biodieesel does the same thing. You only need to watch two diesel busses accelerate from a stop to see this. The one that does not produce a huge cloud of black smoke is the biodiesel. You can smell the difference immediately too, although, if the biodiesel is recycled cooking oil, you may get a sudden urge for french fries.

-------"And some options that have been proposed are just downright awful," Jacobson said. "Ethanol-based biofuels will actually cause more harm to human health, wildlife, water supply and land use than current fossil fuels." He added that ethanol may also emit more global-warming pollutants than fossil fuels, according to the latest scientific studies."-----------

Also, not true. How is growing forests going to cause more harm to human health, wildlife, water supply, and land use than current? Forests provide oxygen, recreation, wildlife habitat, clean water, and a myriad of economically valuable products from lumber, drugs, paper, and countless others----ethanol for fuel would be just one more product.
Ron May
Ron May
December 19, 2008
In his thesis he manages to overlook geothermal which has significant potential in the western states. Geo is a 24/7 base load provider of power where the others are intermittent
Steven Mielke
Steven Mielke
December 19, 2008
If I conducted a study for how I should get to work this morning in a similarly airy manner I might find that a helicopter ride or a chauffeur driven limo would appear as apt choices. Once I throw in economic considerations walking or taking the bus are the only viable candidates, and the earlier study does not help with that decision. Economic viability is a critical factor in evaluating energy generation schemes and if you leave it out of your study these is little value to any of the conclusions.

Using weighting of rank order to grade choices is a very poor method--one that would merit rejection at most hard science journals. Such schemes do not discriminate between cases where one method is a thousand times better than its nearest competitor and where there is little difference between competitors. (For example, the 22% weighting given to ranks for CO2e emissions greatly magnifies the subtle differences between several energy generation methods.)

Additionally, the order of highly ranked methods is not invariant to the number of low ranked methods included in the study. For instance, if one starts with 10 candidates and ranks them with this method and then eliminates the bottom 5 and recomputes ranks the orders of the remaining five can change from that of the initial ranking. Many would consider this a fatal flaw....

One could spend hours enumerating the many flaws in this study. Even if I thought it was a perfect study, I would still be opposed to the practice of this site of allowing puff pieces written by University press offices.
El Rucio
El Rucio
December 19, 2008
Such analyses are useful and of course rely on assumptions and concerns that can be debated as to their validity. But it really is a glaring error to claim that up to 144,000 5-MW wind turbines would take up less than 3 km^2 of land. In fact, at 50 acres/MW, they would require 145,687 km^2. To consider only the actual tower and foundation is like planning an airport only according to the small patches of ground touched by the tires of a plane.

And the paper appears to work towards a carbon reduction goal rather than towards providing energy, so the author seems to have wrongly assumed a one-for-one substitution of wind for other sources that is not borne out by actual experience.
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 19, 2008
Hi JC:

I would say that the whole build-up thing is a function of how much rain you get. You must be from a dry climate. Here in central PA the idea of rain not coming along for awhile is a wished for dream..... most of the time we are drowning in water.... Sun here is the scarce resource, especially in early Winter which is why I promote evacs for thermal use. It is always amazing how people from dry climates underestimate the advantages of evacs over flat plates for thermal use. They are so use to that intense frequent sun the idea of being a BTU miser seems not worth the trouble.... and sims and gross collector outputs fall way short of the whole story...
Personally I have been sweeping the snow and ice off my units forever so no laziness here...

.....Bill
Russell Bradford
Russell Bradford
December 19, 2008
I'll admit that this article seems biased, but that doesn't make it wrong, although there are a few points to note.

I wrote a book Profitable Renewable Energy:It Can be Done that came to basically the same conclusions although the book isn't really about touting one technology over another, instead describes a means of funding renewable energy - but the conclusion was that renewable energy can quite easily be made profitable and it will be up to the consumer, individual and business, to invest in the most promising technologies. My web site (ProfitableRenewableEnergy.com) allows one to compare the sorts of return one might expect from various projects including those mentioned in this article. Wind comes out on top, solar second, etc, with an exception...a new form of nuclear.

After I published the book I discovered information on a new type of nuclear reactor, micro-nuclear reactors, which if they are for real sound pretty promising. They are small 6' x 20', self contained, burried for 30 years and require no fuel changes and have small amounts of relatively low level waste and aren't prone to melt-downs and the nuclear material would be undesirable to refine into a weapon. These reactors cost about $25 million for a 10mW plant and used in combination with wind and solar and other technologies as well as flow batteries to level the whole panoplay of variable energy sources communities of consumers could band together and use the PRE-Plan to fund all such projects together and free the investors from both fossil fuel and energy costs for the life of the projects, typically 30 years. The synergy of these technologies and the PRE-Plan, which all exist today, overcomes all of the objections, including cost. It can be done!
Ronald Corso
Ronald Corso
December 19, 2008
I don't know how the paper by Professor Jacobsen could possibly rank wind number 1 in his study. Wind is an unreliable source of energy varying dramatically from full to no output on the whims of wind currents that are totally unpredictable even sometimes within an hour. In addition, wind power equipment is notoriously unreliable and difficult to repair and maintain due to its location 100 to 200 feet elevated and is only viable economically with large subsidies. Hydropower on the other hand is dependable, easily maintained, very flexible in response to power demands, and has ancillary benefits unequalled by any other power source. If the Professor's paper does not discuss these important issues, it should do so to obtain a fair comparison
John Pisciotta
John Pisciotta
December 19, 2008
Lord Kelvin and Nicola Tesla did a similar analysis over 100 years ago and also advocated Wind power: http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko/delo/10797

As an alternative energy researcher I must correct the notion that all biofuels are the same. They are not. Consumption of food and fresh water to produce fuel is foolish. However, rapid growth of algal biomass which includes lipids and proteins can soak up carbon dioxide AND pollutants from nutrient-rich, otherwise unusable wastewaters.

Algal biofuels/biomass may therefore prove an effective solution to multiple problems including water pollution.
william cormeny
william cormeny
December 19, 2008
New sources like wind,solar,and tidal require a large increase in utility rates.Quite simply the costs of renewable machinery and the replacement or removal of existing power plants remains largely unknown.
In addition the costs of hooking in the these new sources to the [present grid require mandatory and extensive environmental licensing and approval by local and state governments.
The costs of modifying automobiles,gas and propane appliances have been left understated. Finally, these kinds of grids around the globe and the enormous strains associated with providing new raw materials needed have already shown the stresses on the mining and extractive industries.
Ronald STEENBLIK
Ronald STEENBLIK
December 19, 2008
I agree with Todd Spalding. I have met Mark Jacobson, and am impressed by his keen intellect and objectivity. He is doing important work.

Todd Spalding is also spot-on when he notes that, "Unfortunately energy options are selected in an arena where vested interests bypass facts and omit due diligence. Pray that a scientist on the energy throne improves the situation."

With regard to biofuels, however, I don't have high hopes that logic and unbiased analysis will prevail. The President-elect has stacked his cabinet with ethanol enthusiasts (Vilsak, Chu, Daschle, La Hood, Slazar). Some reports claim that some of these guys are pro cellulosic ethanol and against subsidizing corn ethanol, but I doubt very much that any of them will advocate revoking the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 mandate of 15 billion gallons of corn ethanol a year by 2015 (and for each year thereafter) -- 2.3 times what was produced in 2007.

According to the Center for Public Integrity:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/blog/entry/1093/

"Senator Ken Salazar, Democrat of Colorado and Obama's choice for Interior secretary, was one of the six senators who signed the letter supporting the ethanol industry's view that the EPA analysis [on the indirect effects of corn ethanol] be withheld. And former Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack, who has been designated as secretary of Agriculture, has been a consistent supporter of biofuels."

Even Steven Chu seems to be of the opinion that the United States has gobs of surplus arable land ... just sitting there, waiting to be used for biofuel production:

"First, we have a substantial amount of arable land we're not using to grow food, so why not use it to grow fuel ... ?"

www.bayareabasic.org/media/files/pdf/Innovators_Chu.pdf

Energy policy informed by science? Nice idea, but dream on.
Jonathan Cole
Jonathan Cole
December 19, 2008
I don't use any water to clean my photovoltaic panels. A soft-bristled wide broom loosens dirt which has attached itself via condensation (dew). The second sweep takes it of the panels. This is why it is important to mount these things in a way that gives easy access for maintenance.

The equilibrium idea is not accurate because sometimes rain does not come for a long time and these materials that stick to the nightly moisture accumulating on the panels, which are a combination of pollen, soot, microbes, fungae, acidic vapors, dust, nano particles from industry, and airborne seeds and other plant matter can get so thick as to obliterate light penetration. I have seen this with my own eyes.It creates a mini ecology on the surface of the glass. Solar hot water and PV panels are too expensive to give away any fraction of its output due to laziness or a lack of imagination.
David Riposo
David Riposo
December 18, 2008
If you're interested in this article, I'd encourage you to take a look at my thesis. I used sustainability metrics to evaluate the virtues of wind relative to other utility-scale energy generation technologies. My conclusion comports with Mr. Harding's contention (above) that we need a diverse portfolio to meet the energy challenges of the future. However, I'm not as keen on nuclear as a scalable solution due to the proliferation and waste disposal issues. Bottom line: We're staring down the barrel of the climate problem; we need to act decisively. Wind's a sustainable source of energy with a great upside, so let's go with it.

http://www.lib.umd.edu/drum/handle/1903/8598
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 18, 2008
Hi All:

Hollywood has pretty much captured all of mans idiocy even in the face of disaster. "The day after tomorrow", just to name one of dozens of possibilities reflects how small and petty man really is when it comes to his interactions with his fellow species members..... In that case it cost 1/2 the pop of the USA....
CL, help me out here but I do not understand the whole "wash thing" All my solar be it PV or thermal reaches and equilibrium when it comes to dirt buildup. The Wind and rain strikes a balance here... when are you from..??..

.....Bill
Todd Spalding
Todd Spalding
December 18, 2008
My my... aren't we all such wonderful armchair critics.

The good professor is merely ranking the alternatives using a specific set of criteria to help us prioritise resources better.

There's nothing wrong with this report. It's just another data point. We can use this information, other sources and a sprinkle of due diligence to select the best options.

Unfortunately energy options are selected in an arena where vested interests bypass facts and omit due diligence. Pray that a scientist on the energy throne improves the situation.

Economic return is an important criteria, but it's a sad world we live in when it becomes the only criteria.
Steven Mielke
Steven Mielke
December 17, 2008
It is worth noting that this is a "puff piece" from a Stanford news service writer about a Stanford professor's paper. It is also worth noting that cost was not considered as a factor in rating any of the energy generation methods studied. A study without an economic component is of very limited value....
Carolyn Luce
Carolyn Luce
December 17, 2008
My rooftop solar still needs water for washing the panels, possibly at close to the rate of 90,000 gals of water per year per MW.
richard harding
richard harding
December 17, 2008
This is an extremely biased report, as are many in the field of alternative energy. The answer is that we can't meet all of our energy needs with a handful of fledgling technologies, we need a broadly diversified portfolio of energy sources, including renewables (wind, ocean, geothermal, solar PV, solar thermal, hydropower, biofuels, nuclear, and even fossil fuels (coal-to-liquids, natural gas). None of these are without impact on the environment, we just need to choose wisely in order to minimize environmental impact. Ultimately, the energy source with the least environmental impact is probably nuclear. Our goal needs to be energy independence and security with the least possible environmental impact.
stop killin our wilderness
stop killin our wilderness
December 17, 2008
obviously this person lives in NORTHERN california, not southern california, or they would have a clue about how these technologies are vastly different here.

CSP uses nearly 90,000 gallons of water a year, just for rinsing mirrors (from a diesel truck), per megawatt - and that's for the inefficient air-cooled ones. water cooled use an additional 2,000,000 gallons of water/year per megawatt. 2 million gallons per year per megawatt!!! and the output declines as the temperature rises outside, right when we need the power most. idiotic. how can we justify these levels in SoCal, which is already on water rationing?

the land (10 acres/mw) is also permanently destroyed, and lengthy transmission means another 10% is lost.

to say "leave the rest as open space" around massive, inefficient wind turbines is also misleading. dynamiting, boring, trenching (so the turbines can pull power from the grid), concrete, roads, powerlines - all of these things add up to near-total devastation of the entire region when they are in SoCal deserts (which is usually where they are sited in SoCal). that means 45 - 70 acres per megawatt that is permanently decommissioned for all other uses. oh, and these turbines operate at roughly 16% of rated capacity, lower than rooftop solar, especially after transmission losses.

so, in terms of wasting HUGE amounts of water, killing habitats, destroying our carbon sinks (like the Mojave, which is a fantastic carbon sink, equal to temperate forest), massive roads and powerlines, and eminent domain, i beg to differ that these are reasonable solutions in SoCal. they are insane.

rooftop solar, at 18% and counting, destroys no land, requires no new roads or transmission, requires no water, forces no families from their homes, is MUCH less intermittent than Big Wind, and can be owned by PEOPLE instead of Big Energy is the only earth-and-human-friendly solution for SoCal. we are the land of sprawl and sun - let's make that a positive!
William Fitch
William Fitch
December 17, 2008
Hi All:

Yes, of course that is what we should do.... but then again this is the money bought USA in a money bought world, and we already know what has been approved and soon to show its head over the horizon.... and its not a beautiful sunrise....

.....Bill
Martin E. Herzfeld
Martin E. Herzfeld
December 17, 2008
"Comparing the world's energy resources ..." "Where should we invest in the long haul?" http://www.asrc.cestm.albany.edu/perez/

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