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Electric Cars Make Fuel-Free Power Grid Practical

Thomas Blakeslee, Clearlight Foundation
November 17, 2008  |  43 Comments

Internal combustion engines are inherently inefficient due to friction and pumping losses. After a century of evolution gasoline engines in cars are still typically only 21% efficient! Electric motors have no such limitations and are actually capable of 98% efficiency including electronic control losses! Why do we keep wasting our precious fuel on such an inefficient system? The answer is energy storage.

Gasoline, diesel and ethanol fuels are all amazingly compact ways deliver and store energy. Fuel has dominated our transportation sector because batteries are large, heavy and expensive compared to a simple gas tank. Classic lead-acid batteries, for example, need about 388 times as much volume to store energy as gasoline. Electric cars only need to carry about ¼ as much energy because of this efficiency advantage but that still means a lead-acid battery must be 388/4= 97 times larger than a gas tank. It's no wonder gasoline has dominated for a century. Gas tanks are cheap and gas used to be cheap, so why bother?

Lithium batteries have now evolved to a point where they are safe, quickly rechargeable and capable of outlasting a car. They still take up about ten times as much space as a gas tank, but the big remaining problem is cost. Mass production will eventually reduce cost significantly but for now the plug-in hybrid (PHEV) approach solves the problem nicely: Most cars are driven to work or on errands near home except for very occasional long road trips. By providing a gas engine and generator to extend range, a 20 or 40-mile battery capacity can efficiently handle almost all driving. The only time you buy gas is when you take a long trip.

PHEVs exist now only as Prius conversions. The 2008 bailout (energy) bill provides deductions of up to $10,000 that depend on the battery capacity. By late 2010 we will have a large selection of PHEV launches including the Chevy Volt. When the battery is exhausted, a PHEV acts just like a hybrid. The real payoff is during commutes and errands, when it is essentially a pure electric car. The Tesla roadster is the first lithium-powered pure electric car. It has 244-mile range and 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds. Fifty of these cars have been shipped to date and they have a large backlog in spite of the $109,000 price tag.

Tesla has done an excellent study of well-to-wheel efficiency comparing their pure electric to several other real high-efficiency cars. Their study shows that electric cars beat all other approaches even with our present inefficient, 50% coal-powered electrical grid! As bad as coal power is, the 4x efficiency advantage of electric motors makes electrics still cause less than half the CO2 emissions of any gasoline-powered car.

Assuming it is being powered by a modern combined-cycle natural gas power plant, the well-to-wheel efficiency of the Tesla electric is 3.56-times better than a Honda CNG running directly on compressed natural gas. It is also 3.25-times more efficient than a Honda FCX fuel cell car using hydrogen made from natural gas. It is more than twice as efficient as a Prius hybrid. Note that these ratios also apply to the amount of CO2 and other emissions released into the atmosphere. Less fuel means less pollution.

Since electric cars have zero emissions themselves all emissions come from the power plant where they are much more easily controlled. By using a mix of geothermal, wind and solar power the emissions of electric cars could ultimately be reduced right down to zero. The variability of wind and solar power normally limits their use to 20% or so of the total load. However, the large pool of storage batteries in electric cars plugged in for recharge could stabilize the grid amazingly.

The V2G (Vehicle to Grid) concept makes it possible for cars under charge to actually drive the grid when needed. V2G customers get a reduced rate because their charger actually supports the grid temporarily when there is a shortage of power. Charging only occurs when there is plenty of power available: at night or during a gust of wind that creates an excess of power. During a wind lull or when a cloud obscures the sun there may be a shortage, which can be filled in from the batteries. V2G systems are already being manufactured and are under system test in several locations.

Solar power is mostly produced around midday, yet peak usage is in the evening. Wind power builds in the afternoon and extends on into the evening well past the peak need. By defining the V2G charger logic properly, the grid will be stabilized automatically and variable renewable energy can be utilized to a much higher degree. The grid is designed to handle peak loads usually for air conditioning on hot afternoons. Since cars on charge can wait till power is available at night, no expansion of grid capacity will be needed to provide power for electric cars. An amazing bit of synergy, which makes me feel that this was meant to be: Quiet, clean, fuel-free cars — recharged by a fuel-free grid! A future I anticipate with delight.

Thomas R. Blakeslee is president of The Clearlight Foundation, a non-profit organization that invests in renewable energy and other socially useful companies and issues cash grants to individuals who are working effectively for change.

 

Related Links

  • Physics In an Automotive Engine
  • Electric motors are actually capable of 98% efficiency including electronic control losses.

43 Comments

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Russell Hines
Russell Hines
December 15, 2008
This medium is awesome!
I live on the mighty Mississippi River in the midwest.
There are millions of gallons of water passing us by unharnessed
each and every day.
There also 20 + lock and dam (est.) systems along the way that could be
captureing who knows how many megawatts of power along
already existing power grids waiting to be brought on line.

Army Corps of Engineers please help us all!

What about those on the east and west coast with all that water
laping against the shoreline. WE ALL NEED THE ENERGY!
Jim Stack
Jim Stack
December 15, 2008
lots of good comments. A few more facts.
we have mega watts of electric off peak.
wind tends to come at off peak times and millions of electric vehicles could store and charge from it.
V2G EV's can supply energy during the peak hours.
smart grids can manage this energy flow.

batteries and storage will get better and less costly just like PCs, Cell phones and Solar panels. Lithium is already lower life cycle cost than other batteries.
The new lithium batteries are very safe and work in the cold as well as heat.
Altair nano lithium batteries may last over 500,000 miles according to aerovironments 3rd party testing.

a bicycle is the most efficient vehicle , an electric bicycle is the next best vehicle. I have an Rmartin lithium battery assist bicycle $799 and have gone over 50 miles with energy to spare.
david larson
david larson
November 30, 2008
Thank you, Geoffrey Gunning and Michael Patterson, for having some sense.

We have the technology, and the materials and people to build something like the Solar highway/grid (Solarroadways.com?), institute systems loke those in the article. We can design automobiles that will run on the EM from our road/electrical grid, (properly shielding to avoid pacemaker problems). We can ( and should) develop cars that will take us where we need to go with no further input from us than to tell the navigation computer where we want to go. Since all the other cars on the road would presumably be similar, all the cars would travel networkingwith the cars around them. No unexpected stops, acceleration, swerving, cutting people off.

Think of it as door-to-door solar rail service.

Lovely. I'd like to see it someday. Now, who's going to build it?

It would be easy to say the government. The government produces nothing except paper money, the value of which is based on the economic strength of the US, which is based on business and production.

If you use alternatives, any alternatives, in energy, every time you have a choice, you will bolster every alternative energy sector.

It will cost you more. Buying "made in USA" instead of "made in china" has cost me twice as much, but everything lasts longer, and I know who I'm feeding.

The in-fighting between alternative energy factions is ridiculous. We all need to support everything that gets us away from:

1] "Cruelty" oil, produced by terrorists. No nation is perfect, avoid the worst.
2] Oil in general, which, by it's nature, will become harder to obtain.
3] Coal and natural gas from drilling. Their nature is the same as that of oil, and although it hasn't hit us hard yet, if we rely on them, it will.

mogblog.org
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 22, 2008
The Smart Grid is not too far away. V2G will just be another feature of a communication and control system which will be able to integrate sources and loads on a real-time, local basis. I2G ( Inverter to Grid ) is possibly a more accurate description of a variety of systems which produce DC or unregulated AC and connect to the grid through a UL Listed Inverter.With a Smart Grid and a Smart House, small wind on the farm and Solar PV on rooftops will become much more useful to the utilities and to building owners. Distributed generation will become profitable as a generation resource and not just back-up power. Talk to your local utility about the Smart Grid / Smart House concept. They are probably already planning something.BTW: " Smart " used as a descriptor simply indicates the built-in ability of a device or system to monitor and/or control some internal variable via digital signal.
Geoffrey Gunning
Geoffrey Gunning
November 21, 2008
I still think that there's plenty of potential in ethanol as a fuel - providing it can be manufactured in a carbon-neutral manner (or nearly so). Whilst the current method of making it is wasteful, there is a massive amount of research going on to manufacture it from biomass, and some success is claimed. The government subsidies for ethanol could be laying a foundation for ethanol as a future fuel. If that's so, it's a shame they haven't made that clear - perhaps critics wouldn't be quite so aggressive if they knew there was a long term plan.

When adding up the costs of ethanol manufacture, I see little mention of the massive cost of both wars in Iraq and the lives lost. These need to be factored into "the real cost of oil."
Geoffrey Gunning
Geoffrey Gunning
November 21, 2008
On ethanol: Why do all calculations on the energy required to manufacture bio-ethanol, use fossil fuels? The whole purpose of making ethanol is as a substitute for fossil fuels. Therefore use ethanol powered tractors, trucks and process heat in the factory, etc. Seems elementary to me, yet critics continue to tell us how much fossil fuel is used in the process!

On fuel cell efficiency: The open circuit voltage of a H2/O2 fuel cell is just over 1 volt. The theoretical OCV is 1.23 v. Due to activation polarization, the theoretical voltage is never obtained. You could draw a tiny current from a fuel cell and say, wow - 90% efficiency! That's true, but economically out of the question. A $20,000 fuel cell system giving you 10 watts output would be extremely silly. The more current you draw, the lower the voltage, and the lower the efficiency. A graph of power (V X I) versus current density, peaks at an efficiency of around 50% and a voltage of about 0.7v per cell. So when running at maximum power, your efficiency is about 50% - twice as much as an I.C. engine.
Marston Schultz
Marston Schultz
November 21, 2008
The only reason to have V2G capability in your vehicle is for powering your household during power outages instead of using a stand alone generator or battery (UPS system) for back up.
Fred Linn
Fred Linn
November 20, 2008
from Joseph M.
---------"Ethanol, now there's a big, huge waste of our money and time. We simply don't have enough acres to plant enough feedstock to supply ethanol plants to wean us off oil."--------

We have MORE than enough acres----ethanol can be made from any kind of plant matter at all. It does not even have be be made from plants grown on land, plants grow in water too.

------"And the sad fact about ethanol is that it still takes oil or fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest, transport, etc, etc. the feedstock for the ethanol plant."------

Then use biofuels. It's already being done.

------".Folks, this is just not that smart of an idea. "---------

Biofuels provide far and away the most benefits, least costly and easiest transition of all the systems available. Biofuels are the smartest idea out there.
Russ Finley
Russ Finley
November 20, 2008
Nice post, Thomas

Solar John,

As long as your biofuel is made from waste products, no problem, even better to heat with solar.

Russell,

Read "The Hype About Hydrogen" by Romm
Thomas Blakeslee
Thomas Blakeslee
November 19, 2008
Warren: I always like to keep an open mind but I think you may be a hydrogen shill. Do you have any links about your 70% efficient hydrogen fuel cell and your 90% efficient electrolysis? All I could find on Honda fuel cells is a spec on their CHP system where the fuel cell is only 35% efficient. Possibly the one you heard about was using pure oxygen.
Lithium salts are dirt cheap so there hasn't been much exploration but I just heard about a geothermal power plant that will extract lithium from the hot water that happened to contain lots of lithium salts.
J Mot
J Mot
November 19, 2008
Hydrogen will never be the answer, for the simple fact that it takes energy to make the hydrogen. Please don't forget this simple fact. Now, when you calculate the conversion costs, and inefficiencies,,,,,,,,,,, you might as well just stay with an electric car. Plus, add in the storage problems for hydrogen, and the massive infrastructure needed for hydrogen, well it just doesn't make sense. ( I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the oil companies have been pushing for hydrogen, all along, just for the fact that it still takes energy to make the hydrogen, and the plain simple truth, that it will never pan out.

Ethanol, now there's a big, huge waste of our money and time. We simply don't have enough acres to plant enough feedstock to supply ethanol plants to wean us off oil. And the sad fact about ethanol is that it still takes oil or fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest, transport, etc, etc. the feedstock for the ethanol plant. Folks, this is just not that smart of an idea. If our goal is to reduce carbon emissions, and it should be, then we are MUCH better off investing those same dollars in clean energy sources such as wind turbines, or thin film solar, or geothermal. It' so simple.
Have we forgotten how much gas it takes to produce just one gallon of ethanol !

Ladies and Gentlemen, our future is clean energy sources. Wind turbine installation will very likely increase substantially under the next administration. Thin film solar will likely come of age, with metal roofing manufacturers coupling with thin film solar manufacturers, to supply 'solar roofs for every home/business'. Yes, that is the future. So is geothermal, I ask each of you to to examine Razor Technologies, new technology in regards to geothermal. Clearly, this aspect is on the verge of exponential growth.
Next, look for information on Eestore. Their supercapacitor technology will make the all electric car commonplace, electrical storage very CHEAP.
Warren Reynolds
Warren Reynolds
November 19, 2008
Mr. Blakeslee:
Do not be a electric car "shill".
The Tesla paper on well-to-wheel efficiency is slanted toward the electric car. There are errors in their calculations. For example on page 5, they show a diagram with the conversion efficiencies of the battery electric auto compared to the fuel cell auto. For the fuel cell auto, the water electrolysis is now 90% efficient not 70%. With the 10,000 psi electrolyzer, there is no need for a hydrogen compressor. Therefore, the 90% compressing efficient is not required. Thirdly, the fuel cell efficiency is not 40% but is now around 70% and improving. There is no need for an inverter for the electric motor. A DC motor is used.

For the Li battery electric auto, it is not renewable by that I mean there is a limited supply of Li ore in the world. Once it is consumed it is gone ! Oh yes, it can be recycled but with diminishing returns. However, there is plenty of water for electrolysis to hydrogen. The by-product of hydrogen fuel cell auto is - surprise - more water ! Thus, fuel cell energy source - hydrogen - is truly renewable.
Nick Cook
Nick Cook
November 19, 2008
"Generating electricity using steam turbines is approximately 35% efficient" true, but using the best available CCGT technology it can be as high as 60% and DCFC's (see my previous post) can achieve even higher efficiencies almost direct from coal. The point about electric cars is that their energy efficiency is very much higher than ICEs and the sooner we change to using them the sooner they will make a difference, especially when the new renewable energy sources come online. The big plus with EVs is that we will need far less renewable electrical energy than renewable biofuel energy if we stick with the ICE, probably by a factor of 4 or more!
Taking a typical average gasoline powered car doing 33mpg (UK) (~11.7Km/l) then the energy used is approximately 830 Wh per km, a typical electric vehicle uses about 150 Wh per km, about 5 1/2 times less. Admittedly if we take the best diesel fuel cars available now the ratio will be smaller, but in terms of where we are now and what we could achieve by going to electric vehicles the comparison just given shows what is achievable.
For more information on this and many more RE topics I can recommend a read of (Prof.) David J.C. MacKay's book. >
"Sustainable Energy – without the hot air".
UIT Cambridge, 2008. ISBN 978-0-9544529-3-3.
Available FREE online from www.withouthotair.com.
http://www.withouthotair.com/download.html
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 19, 2008
Off-peak, thermal plants operate on a baseload serving, hot standby basis consuming large amounts of coal or natural gas to maintain boiler temperatures while not making energy sales.. They are fully staffed and only see a small drop in production costs while on standby. They will gladly sell all the power they can produce at normal rates, if only they could find someone who wanted it. Initially, utility profits will rise as off-peak loads are added. Regional capacity shortages may cause prices to go up which will stimulate wind and solar and conservation. Sounds like a good thing
Hitoshi Maruyama
Hitoshi Maruyama
November 19, 2008
Dear friends:
Please get out your CAR-culture minds. To be ENERGY INDEPENDENT can be achieved using both renewable energy and mass transportations run by renewables.
There are many report circulated in Japan one of Shinkansen high speed trains use only 1/12 of energy to a car.
Let's assume a car has a 200 hp engine. A train has 1000 passenger capacity requires 25,000 hp.
When their energy are compared a person. the train needs 25 hp for a passenger as 200 hp or
40 hp for five passengers.
This train is about 1/4 or 5/8 of energy of a car.
If all cities in the US build better public transportation networks which are run by renewable fuels, probably 1/2 of the US oil consumption can be replaced.
The US should created high speed train net works throughout the US, it will secure trip less than 1,000 miles. They are also electrified. Air planes will provide travel for longer than 1,000.
Then, oil will be conserved a huge amount that should be reserved for food production, long distant travel, and trucks to haul our essential goods.
Scott Cronk
Scott Cronk
November 19, 2008
The Critical Role of Infrastructure: Infrastructure plays a vital, integral, and often over-looked role in our systems of transportation and the forces that shape them. In 2003, when CARB scaled back its ZEV requirements, there were less than 8,000 EV charging stations installed across the United States. A pitifully-low number when compared to the 200,000 gas stations in America . EV's were promised to be charge-at-work, charge-at-home, never-go-to-the-gas-station-again vehicles. For the few thousand EV drivers, however, finding a charge station that worked, and that fit their particular EV, became a frequent concern. It wasn't until 2000 that an industry standard for recharge connections was set by CARB, through industry input.

In the end, the demise of the battery EV was blamed on battery technology. Batteries were reported to be expensive, heavy, and offered poor driving range. Yet, in 2001 and 2002 when General Motors, Honda and other automakers asked consumers to turn in their electric vehicles, many EV-owners (or leasers) tried to find ways to hang on to their EV's – vehicles they had grown to enjoy as an integral pat of their daily lives. Those EV drivers had charging stations at their home, at the office, and knew where to find other recharge points in the vicinity of routine travels. Lack of range, while still a reality, was not cause for these EV drivers to give up their cars.
But, by this time efforts by utilities, state regulators, and automakers to install recharge stations had fallen short of what was required to make EVs practical for the wider population. Without a convenient, reliable way to recharge battery EVs range truly is a problem.
Hybrid-electric cars on the other hand, offer the consumer a vehicle that is quietly asleep at stop lights, has ultra-low emissions, comes with a federal tax credit, and is a fuel economizer. These are attributes similar to a battery EV. But, hybrids use the good old gas station, even if infrequently.
Mark Goldes
Mark Goldes
November 19, 2008
The earth is immersed in an extremely dense sea of energy. In 1926, inventor Hans Coler, in Germany, tapped what he termed "Space Energy". His first generator delivered a few watts of electricity. During 1937, Coler demonstrated a second, 6,000 watt generator.
We are developing revolutionary new technology. Some of our generators may prove to be tapping the same, Space Energy resource. Ambient heat surrounds us at all times. It is another huge untapped energy reservoir. Those who doubt this is possible may find the two papers dealing with Maxwell at the following link of interest: http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Fu_X/0/1/0/all/0/1
Devices without moving parts are comparable to an inexhaustible electric battery. One Proof-of-Concept prototype was evaluated by Lee Felsenstein, EE. He concluded it to be analogous to the early work on the transistor, which eventually led to a Nobel Prize and the creation of Silicon Valley.
2,000 watts is the maximum amount of power that can be drawn from a 110 volt wall outlet to recharge the battery of a plug-in hybrid car. Generators we are developing are expected to generate this much power and demonstrate replacement of the plug needed by a plug-in hybrid car, within a year. This will be a harbinger of automobiles that need no conventional fuel. With normal progress, prototype new energy conversion systems are anticipated to replace an automobile engine within three years. It was recently estimated that selling power to the grid from future production hybrid electric cars (V2G) might earn the vehicles' oowner $4,000 each year. In the future, cars powered by new energy conversion systems are expected to earn much more, as these generators are anticipated to replace both batteries and car engines. Therefore, they are expected to produce far greater amounts of electricity.
Rick Kolb
Rick Kolb
November 19, 2008
Some of you are missing my point. I didn't base my argument on insufficient generation, I'm saying that even if we don't build new generation electricity is going to go up drastically. Cap and Trade applys to existing plants and from the proposals I've seen, a ton of carbon permits will cost the same whether you use them at midnight or four in the afternoon. The same goes for feed-in-tariffs. The wind producers will be paid the feed in tariff based on kwhs produced at the same price, night or day. Thus, you are driving up the price of kwhs produced, even if they are produced in the middle of the night. The only thing that would negate my premise is if somehow the government or the market changes the rules to price cap and trade permits and feed--in-tariffs at a lower price for off peak hours. I have not seen this suggested anywhere in the extensive literature, etc. that I have reviewed.
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 19, 2008
Sorry, Tesla's Roadster is a pure EV not a PHEV
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 19, 2008
Mr Heller
TATA's NANO will have little chance in a collision with an armour plated SUV either.
Only forklifts! Diesel-electric locomotives, buses, trolleys, subway cars, golf carts, construction equipment. Safe, reliable, clean, efficient
Other than the Tesla Roadster, most PHEVs will have fewer electrical connections to corrode than an ICEV
In northern Alaska you plug-in your vehicle almost everytime you turn off the engine. At home, at the supermarket, at the bar. The infrastructure is simple and cheap and not that inconvenient to install or use.
Frank J. Heller
Frank J. Heller
November 19, 2008
TATA's NANO is being considered for assembly in Maine with appropriate modifications including bio-methane fuels...it comes in three pieces, making regional assembly based on various needs and specifications an enticing reality.

E.V.'s have promise...but other than fork lifts, America has little experience with them.

What happens when you crash one for example? or you lose the mass of the engine in front of you as protection?

Then there are salt water environments, i.e. winter and corroded electrical connections.

I'd like a commuter siting on a flat lot in the sun, recharging itself, from a roof top PV panel.

Islands, retirement communities, college campuses and other self-contained entities are perfect for 'seeding' EV's. ....getting people to convert over to them is quite another matter..I don't see Obama tooling around D.C. in one, and abandoning his fleet of black Armour plated SUV's.
Gregor Giebel
Gregor Giebel
November 19, 2008
Same thing has been calculated for Germany. The DGS (German Society of Solar energy - might be biased ;) has calculated together with E.On (the biggest German utility - probably not biased) that 40 million plug-in hybrids on German streets (currently there are 45 million cars in DE) would only require 10% more generation of electricity, but the fuel consumption of the German car fleet could be halved. So no scaremongering of lacking power generation here!

http://www.solarserver.de/news/news-7905.html
Jay Rosenberg
Jay Rosenberg
November 19, 2008
Indulge me to voice disagreement. I have the closest combustion engine equivalent of the electric motor, regarding efficiency, HP/Weight ratio and greenness. Fossil and BioFuels still contain a multiple the BTU's or energy that batteries have pound for pound, and volume. Batteries also have manufacturing/ disposal environmental problem. I am pro-EV (but at LESS cost than fueled cars. Guess who is laughing all the way to the international banks at $40K/ set of wheel!!) and Pro Plug-In. Modesty aside MFSD (my high efficiency Multi Fuel Superior Diesel) projects 150 MPG (on Diesel) powering an aerodynamic automobile, with creature comforts, along the lines of Tata Motors (India) produced Nano. Which BTW is a 5 passenger diesel selling for $2,500! We can substantiate the above claims, and are positioning for its commercialization. My company's plans are for a $5, 000 ($5K), five passenger Made in the USA Green MFSD Automobile. Mechanical/ fuel generated engine power is still extremely advantageous and applicable globally -US and abroad. ½ acre of so will produce sufficient renewable perennial biofuel to fuel such a family's high efficiency auto –which could also be used as high efficiency transportation and OFF-GRID electric power in the myriad of energy deprived zones. BioFuels can be made from waste biomass / oils, animal fats, seaweed, non-edible biomass (preferred)… on a table top. Just removing the exploring, drilling, extracting, shipping (via tankers, in front of pirates), refining, distributing, reselling, GEOPOLITICS… accrues enormous and immediate economic payback. 1.5 Billion people globally will never have a grid connection. There would be an annual multi-hundred billion savings if the US switched to high efficency fuelies/ combustion power, mine or others. I prefer mine. This is a perrenial economic booster. Detroits inefficiency is by years of design! CEO, Sannerprojects, Inc Sannerwind@gmail.com
Dennis Houghton
Dennis Houghton
November 19, 2008
Also look at a study by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. Search the internet for PNNL PHEV for an article titled "Impacts Assessment of Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles on Electric Utilities". You will find a conclusion that more than 100 million vehicles at four miles per KwHr could be charged, at night, for 66 miles per day of use without any new generating capacity needed. The Smart Grid will solve the "lazy American" problem while enabling the renewable resources we all seem to want.
Rick Kolb
Rick Kolb
November 19, 2008
I see a problem with this concept of recharging electric vehicles at night when the electric rates will supposedly be low. The problem I see is that electric rates will be increasing drastically, even during the so-called "off-peak" hours. With the onset of the carbon cap and trade system putting tremendous pressure on rates and then you add the "feed-in tariffs" of 40 cents or 50 cents per kwh (who knows what the limit will be) plus all the NIMBYS that don't want coal, nuclear, new hydro because it kills fish, wind towers because of noise/health concerns/asthetics, and don't want new transmission because of similar concerns. You see this cheap electricity suddenly "evaporate". Now, after all of this negativity, who knows maybe all other methods of fueling vehicles will go up even more. But please, disabuse yourself of this notion that recharging electric vehicles at night will be cheap in the future.
Thomas E. Hoff
Thomas E. Hoff
November 19, 2008
Take a look at www.cleanpower.com for a case study of how this could work laid out in a paper titled "Solar Sustained Vehicles (SSV): A Consumer's Solution to Protection in an Age of Oil Dependence, Economic Uncertainty, and Global Warming."
Bradley Schneider
Bradley Schneider
November 19, 2008
I agree with the premise of the article. As you look around there are dozens of ideas being worked on. There is no single solution for the replacement of the IC engine powered automobile. I think the PHV is a smart start. The big thing with an electric is ideally you want to be able to travel the same distance as a tank of gasoline, which is about 300 miles, give or take. This is something the public can easily understand, a full battery is equal to a tank of gas. When you can only go 40-50 miles on pure electric, and then have to explain to people that most Americans only have a commute of less than 30 miles, and it would be equal to... and... etc... etc.. People get all confused with this. So I think a smart short term answer is the PHV, like a plug in Prius, or Ford Escape, and kits exist for each, and the Volt is another good solution. These are all part of the transition to a predominantly all electric fleet of passenger vehicles. We still have to address trucks of all sizes.

I am not sold on the V2G concept. I think if it is limited to an individual household rather than trying to serve into the local distribution system, this can work. Now your car is your personal backup generator versus the unit you buy at Home Depot and struggle to start because it hasn't been routinely exercised.

What I would rather see developed is a recharging station in a home that is based on a capacitor system to rapidly recharge a vehicle, but it could be tied to a solar array or wind system to collect power while the vehicle is away, and the surplus when the vehicle is connected. It could also be tied into the home as a secondary storage and backup for the residence. I think it could be cheaper to develop and maintain than a battery system.

There are lots of solutions, we each need to invest in what works for our own personal situation. I am just waiting to purchase my Prius and convert it to a plug in.
Daniel bedard
Daniel bedard
November 19, 2008
As you point out the problem of electric car is storage, nothing good as gasoline tank, however there is the answer ethanol or methanol tank or vegetable oil (why not mixed with diesel) use in place of H2 in a reformer fuel cell. Some work is going on in that field but not enough because the answer is there. Nothing to change on the fuel station, and transport system. Just an electric car with the reformer fuel cell, if possible which could work on any liquid fuel available. Let see...
Dominic Jermano
Dominic Jermano
November 19, 2008
Winchester you are an old slug that has backfired...the change is coming, and the real answer is not combustion engines... The Automakers can't sell them now, because of their stonewalling or whatever it is that they can't move on from the past... Electric is undeniably the working future, given the world we find ourselves in. Alternative liquid fluids have an enrgy requirement that is needed to make them....that is more money....and is not an answer....the same with hydrogen...It takes energy to make and produce hydrogen.....yet once you drill a geothermal well one time....you have power forever.....and that power is ELECTRIC..... So Bring it ON......
dick winchester
dick winchester
November 19, 2008
Dear oh dear... Someone else who has caught the electric vehicle bug.

Of course given that somewhere around 40% of all energy consumed is related to transport then I would like to know where the additional electrical generation capacity is going to come from to fulfill this particular dream.

The cost of doing that would of course be huge and doesn't take into account the cost of completely restructuring the entire automotive supply chain.

The real answer of course is to develop alternative liquid fuels that can be used in the existing well understood and highly developed internal combustion engine... I would suggest that Methanol is the probable solution. Use the CO2 captured from coal fired power stations and other sources to produce it.
Michael Patterson
Michael Patterson
November 19, 2008
The internal combustion engine efficiency of 21% is due mainly to the Laws of Thermodynamics, not pumping and friction losses.
Generating electricity using steam turbines is approximately 35% efficient due to the Laws of Thermodynamics. This electricity is needed to charge the batteries.
For transportation, using electric batteries rather than hydrocarbon liquids is probably a tossup -- especially if America learns how to produce all of its hydrocarbon liquids rather than bankrupting our economy by importing crude oil.
Gregor Giebel
Gregor Giebel
November 19, 2008
A couple of side notes to the V2G concept.
There are a few quite good papers by Willet Kempton on his site www.udel.edu/V2G, which explain the nitty-gritty of the concept without undue recourse to technical detail.
Of course there is a button in your car indicating when you will need it again, and which charge you expect from it at that time.
Of course there is the possibility to not use the battery for services - but then you will have to actually pay (more) for your electricity.
Of course it does not run down the battery completely, but will leave it 70 or 80% full at any time - the large scale effects come from the large number of batteries connected to the grid.
Actually, here in Denmark one researcher mentioned that alone with the value of having the battery as ancillary services connected to the grid some 20 hours a day, and without having to have large transfers of energy in or out of the battery, it might be possible to finance at least the monthly rates for the battery, if not for the car itself. One business model could be analog to mobile phones, where you get the phone for 1 [currency unit], but you agree to buy certain services afterwards. All we need is some shrewd investor actually audacious enough to do it. Possibly the guys from Project Better Place are thinking along those lines...

I'm looking forward to a future with electric transport, where biomass is used for food, and the waste biomass from food production (read: straw or manure) is used in fairly localised CPH plants. REsult: everyone's happy (including Shell, one of the largest investors in wind power, or BP with their successful solar arm).
Dominic Jermano
Dominic Jermano
November 19, 2008
we need to make the investment in the Geo- Energy company. This will create stable communities....and only one house per buyer can take advantage of this incentive to promote this great alternative energy.

Why is it when we buy a new car its value does not increase? But buy a new house we instantly think the house value should increase. We are wrong on this assessment, and home prices should be treated as the value comparison made to cars. This makes it reasonable to say a house gets old and depreciates just like cars....it will stabilize prices in the housing market, and actually create homes for people to live in instead of articles used to get rich on in promoting fraudualent home price values..which ultimately gave the many bank failures we have seen recently.

Make our Alternative Energy our income, for everyone to help buy our homes.
Dominic Jermano
Dominic Jermano
November 19, 2008
Alos Tom I want to place this comment here because I know how we are so much pro Geothermal. It concerns how to get investments and how we should look at who owns what in the energy picture. I believe the people should benefit...not CEO's who hog the loins share of profits to squander and gamble in failed Stock Market Enterprises. We should be doing the exact opposite to what Enron did when it fleeced thousands of pepole by inflating electric rates to Californians. Enron went bankrupt like many of the banks that have been forced to go belly up as well.

People are also taking a 2nd look at this picture since Lehman Bros, and Wachovia failed while promoting alternative energy. One considers the failure was intentionally induced by the Oil Lobby while shifting focus from them to the Mortgage Housing Industry.

What we need is not government handouts but a strategy to base our financial system not on the US Government or the Banking albatross, but have the Energy Companies become the producers for our future.

People who invest in Geothermal Energy will also get a payback when the Geo Company gives investors the inflow of revenue when electric is sold to the public. It is the exact opposite of the Enron thieves, who actually began this bankrupt roller-coaster ride and have slid us into this recession.

I know if it was my Geo Company which I am actively trying to start I will have a provision that people who invest in the Development of Geo Thermal, our company will make good by paying on your homes mortgage in return....once electric is on line and flowing into the community.

This means people get more back than their initial investment. It would be set at established levels such as 150,000 mortgage at $350 per month for 15 years paid by the Geo Company.....after the investor made their investment.

We are in a serious fix to say the least. Which comes first? Buy the House, or create the job to buy the house. We can't buy houses without jobs, so obvious
Dominic Jermano
Dominic Jermano
November 19, 2008
I like the electric car concept, in fact instead of using fuel to push the car down the road, the use of ethanol can be used to power a generator to keep the batteries always charged. A much smaller motor would accomplish this task, and get you further on a gallon of ethanol, than if used for direct driving the hybrid engine....

This means the hybrid motor is used only for recharging and providing heat/ ac and lighting system energy.

Although I oppose the use of ethanol and hydrogen because it takes so much energy to use to make it....it seems that flywheels would be another good choice for recharging systems. With this idea I see the car while it is in motion has high tech gears that crank up the flywheel....before it is let loose to cycle more than double the energy it took to wind itself up. This would really be a new type of generator system on board a car, to give it more battery power.

Then we still could go back to steam and refine that process. Batteries would heat water that is already hot and stored in a thermos tank. As the car moves down the road it is being recharged at the same time. The hot water or whatever solvent is used would remain hot enough to give the car its power down the road. Steam is the most powerful pressure in the world, and it is ashame the autro industry in the USA has failed to refine that great invention.
Nick Cook
Nick Cook
November 19, 2008
What a lot of sense, BEV (battery electric) or PHV (lug-in hybrid) is definitely the way to go, with efficient electric generation they have the potential to reduce our primary energy demand for transport, and hence emissions, by about two thirds, or possibly more, even if we carry on using fossil fuels for generation, (assuming we use the most efficient methods - see below). Conversely it means that we only have to provide one third, or less, of the amount of renewable electrical energy relative to the amount of fossil fuel energy currently used to power our transport.

Incidentally, making 'green fuels' from biomass makes the situation worse, production is probably not much better than 50% efficient field to tank compared to about 90% well to tank for fossil fuels, thus replacing our fossil fuel with bio-fuels will significantly increase our raw primary renewable energy input. So compared to the biofuels route electric vehicles require about a quarter to one fifth the raw energy input. Renewable electricity also generally does not have a significant impact on food production, even if land based, food can still be grown under wind turbines.

With regard to batteries there is still a long way to go, LiS technology has a theoretical capacity of about 2500Wh/Kg, fives times that of Li-Ion's theoretical capacity, by comparison current 'safe' lithium batteries are in the 100 to 200Wh/Kg

Re. Tennessee Cornstoves comment on efficiency. I think the point is that although a lot of base load electricity is currently generated by relatively poor efficiency coal fired power stations these will gradually be replaced by renewable sources and/or much more efficient power stations, possibly operating in CHP mode. For example the DCFC (direct carbon fuelcell) can convert carbon (coal, bio-char etc) directly into electricity at 80% efficiency, and in theory higher; (actually demonstrated and better than any HFC).
murray rose
murray rose
November 19, 2008
tennessee,wots your point?
Tennessee Cornstoves
Tennessee Cornstoves
November 19, 2008
Correctly states Grid power is 25% efficient and ICE is 21% efficient.
Electric vehicles factually run on 50% coal power at a maximum efficiency of 21-25% unless recharged by wind, solar, hydro, biomass, local renewable energy.
Anybody got a beef with that?
Thomas Blakeslee
Thomas Blakeslee
November 18, 2008
Jeff: Don't worry, the V2G controller is very smart with microprocessor control. If you don't want to share your battery you just pay more for the electricity. It will never completely discharge your battery and remember, you just seamlessly run on gasoline if the battery does get low. Its all just economics. You are letting the power company rent your very expensive battery when you aren't using it.
Jeff Kelly
Jeff Kelly
November 18, 2008
I'm hoping that my next car purchase will be a PHEV, depending on price and manufacturer. I am a bit skeptical about the idea of millions of cars plaugged into the grid being used as a buffer for the grid. To do this, it means that under certain circumstances, the car battery will discharge itself back into the grid when the grid tells it to. Consider that - you drive on your errand, using maybe half the battery charge. You pull into your driveway and plug in, and you fully intend that it will be fully charged a couple hours later when you have to go on your next errand.

Is the average consumer going to accept a grid that randomly DISCHARGES their car batteries at certain hours, regardless of their needs? I know I wouldn't. If I take the trouble to plug the car in four times a day, I want it fully charged sitting in my driveway when I am ready to leave the house again. You get a call, needed to visit somebody, jump in the car...and the battery is nearly dead because it's convenient to the utility. This theory needs to be considered a little more carefully.

The other thing we need to invent is a magnetic induction charger that sits on the driveway. The car parks over it, a light on the dash signals proper alignement, and the charging current is delivered to a receiving coil on the car by magnetic induction. No crods or plugging in needed. Perfect for lazy Americans. And much safer than a 240v plug in the rain.
Russell Hines
Russell Hines
November 18, 2008
I think with Hydrogen being the most abundant element in the Universe,
we as nation and hard working citizens such as myself, need to be more educated in this field. I wish we could get the schools more involved at
the high school level. With math and science as a curriculm their are
students that you would think would be very interested in this field.
I have searched the internet and have fould many people doing different
experiments, plans, add ons for your car. Some have put them to use on their cars with some success. My conclussion is that electrolysis seems to
be the most simple way to extract Hydrogen but the hardest to control for
application to your car.

In closing, I purchased one of these sets of plans for Water 2 Gas, but shortly after reading and figuring what it would cost, amazed me at how
technical it was and expensive.
I believe
Stuart Smith
Stuart Smith
November 17, 2008
Copy the President ASAP.
John Dalhaus
John Dalhaus
November 17, 2008
With V2G technology, and by using bio-fuels to heat our homes, I see no reason why we'll need to import oil in the future. I've already cut my fossil fuel use by almost 50%, and I still drive a gas-powered car. solarjohn.blogspot.com

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Thomas Blakeslee

Thomas Blakeslee

Thomas R Blakeslee’s books have been published in nine different languages. After serving for three years in the U.S. Navy, he earned a degree from CalTech in Pasadena, California in 1962. After working for IT&T in Antwerp, Belgium, he...
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