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Sandia and Stirling Set Solar-to-grid Conversion Efficiency Record

February 19, 2008   |   20 Comments

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"The demonstrated high efficiency means more energy is generated for the given investment, lowering the cost of the energy delivered."

-- Bruce Osborn, President and CEO, Stirling Energy Systems
20 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 20
February 19, 2008
<span style="font-size: 10pt"><font face="Arial">Hi: Well, that is definitely a good question. I would like to know the cost of this system and the projected cost with some economies to scale in place&hellip;</font></span>
Comment
2 of 20
February 19, 2008
I'll skeptical. Efficiency is not the driving factor when the &quot;fuel&quot; is free. The only factor efficiency drives is how big a plot of land you need.&nbsp; $131,000 in PV panels would match this system in power. What does this system cost?
Comment
3 of 20
February 19, 2008
It's about time we heard something about SES. After all the hype a while ago, I stopped seeing news about them. I was afraid that it had turned out to be a scam or hoax.
Comment
4 of 20
February 20, 2008
Continued 'competition' for innovative ways to solve energy production needs in the post-petroleum environment is healthy.&nbsp; Solar power is just one area.&nbsp; I continue to be encouraged by&nbsp;growing dialog supporting greater R&amp;D of geothermal resources worldwide.&nbsp; It's a natural, non-polluting source of energy with international potential.&nbsp; It's also a natural for horizontal integration by leading oil companies, with their huge investment in drilling and pipeline technology that's directly applicable to&nbsp;geothermal development.&nbsp; Futures planners at BP, Shell, etc. should definitely be turning a gaze toward expanded geothermal R&amp;D in potentially productive areas of the world.
Comment
5 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>Cost per kWhr is an important measure. To achieve a sustainable future this probably will need to increase. This provides economic drivers for the rapid changes that are needed to move from fossil hydrocarbon sources. </p><p>The link between coal oil and ecomomic growth is because these were the energy production technologies of the last few hundred years.&nbsp; Replacing this obsolete technology will provide the energy supply required to maintain an effective modern economy.</p><p>Energy costs as a proportion of GDP are presently 2% to 5%, but have been falling consistently for 50 years.&nbsp; A doubling of delivered (not the at power station or well head) energy costs could be easily accomodated.&nbsp; It won't decrease but increase employment and GDP. The changes are just another sectoral shift in the development of the economy. Newer technology and efficiency improvements driven by higher energy costs will then allow energy intensity to continue its downward trend. </p>
Comment
6 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>What's the cost? Along with others, that's my main question.</p><p>On energy storage, I think people are looking too far - the current systems follow demand, surely if variable cost electricity (to the consumer) is available then there will be a huge amount of consumption that will be willing to follow supply.&nbsp; Obvious examples are big energy users like HVAC, washing machines even some food preparation activities.&nbsp; As long as there is (electronic) access to the current price systems can be set to run when price is low.&nbsp; The capacity of good demand control, with minimal hardware (switches) far outstrips the inefficiences and expense of electrical storage. </p><p>One advantage of solar is that it produces in the daytime when activity is highest.<br /> </p>
Comment
7 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>In the comparison between photovoltaic panels and active systems such as SES, a couple of theings to consider are the amount of maintenance and the availability of the land to be used simultaneously for something else.&nbsp; An SES system will need constant maintenance, with its many moving parts and finicky requirements. The constant use of service vehicles would&nbsp;have a large impact on the land, rendering it nearly useless for anything besides power generation.&nbsp; Photovoltaic panels, on the other hand, can be mostly left alone.&nbsp; The land would still be available for wild animals and plants, or for grazing or even for growing crops.&nbsp; If I were to bet, I'd put my money on photovoltaics.&nbsp;</p>
Comment
8 of 20
February 20, 2008
Transferring electricity to the opposite side of the world is probably not going to be a reasonable solution. Combinations of solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, etc together with pumped hydro, compressed air storage and more means there will always be power available, just that it will be more expensive at some times than at others. Heat storage at a home is one way to manage load balancing, by being able to heat the storage tank when power is cheap (sunny, windy, rainy) and use the heat when power is more expensive. This is already in use in some areas to take advantage of off-peak rates. Large numbers of grid connected car batteries may also play a role.
Comment
9 of 20
February 20, 2008
An advantage I see of the dish systems is that they allow local, low-scale (25KW units) production. Of course this probably increases maintainance costs but this could help with aging grids, local capacity increases, bringing more flexibility and probably could be more resilient to grid disasters.
Comment
10 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>We still have to solve cost-effectively the energy storage problem for nights and bad wheather.</p><p>For the night, I came up with this idea (I don't know if someone else had this idea yet) that the world could build tropical ring grids around the world so that countries in the sun would distribute energy to countries in the dark in a rotating fashion.</p><p>We also need to consume less energy at night through better insulation and other measures to use more energy during the day (the oposite of what electrical companies try to do today because they can't reduce energy production at night very easilly). </p>
Comment
11 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>Unfortunatly SES does not disclose the cost of a dish system. About a year ago, I had made an estimate of $75000 per 25KW dish or $3 per KW. I don't remember how I came to this number though so don't quote me.</p><p>This cost is still way too high for mass replacement of other poluting technologies.</p><p>The real key is not efficiency, it is the cost per KW. This probably means that this is not the most efficient system that wins but of course it's probably one of the most efficient systems.</p>
Comment
12 of 20
February 20, 2008
<p>A &quot;stirling&quot; effort Sandia the news keeps getting better, another good use for hydrogen!</p><p>Mike H. HYDROGENHEADS</p>
Comment
13 of 20
February 21, 2008
<p>To John Groweg....&nbsp; Another interesting heat storage medium is one of the eutetic salts.&nbsp; Glaubers salt which is sodium sulphate decahydrate comes to mind.&nbsp; The decahydrate is the key.&nbsp; At around 30 degrees, it turn liquid and absorbs 'latent heat' just as melting ice does.&nbsp; Of course it gives out this large amount of heat when it &quot;freezes&quot; also around 30 degrees.</p><p>I'd like to see how this system would perform at the south pole in the middle of summer.&nbsp; The coldness of the cold side is critical to the efficiency of a heat engine, the altitude of the south pole gets it above much of the atmosphere and since it is a focusing system, the mirrors are at 90 degrees to the suns rays anyway.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
14 of 20
February 21, 2008
<span><font face="Arial" size="3">We have a high efficiency Stirling (over 90% theoretical efficiency) that coupled with cost effective dishes (and a high solar thermal location) can generate provides carbon-free power at a projected $.05/kWh. </font><a href="mailto:Jriam1945@aol.com" target="_blank"><font face="Arial" size="3">Jriam1945@aol.com</font></a><font size="3"><font face="Arial">. We are looking for serious stakeholders in Solar Thermal and Geothermal. Jay </font></font></span>
Comment
15 of 20
February 21, 2008
<p>Whats most exciting about the SES &quot;Sun Catcher's&quot; is target cost per kilowatt hour is less then the MPR(market price reference) for a gas fired power plant.</p><p>Remember SES is twice as efficient as PV and three times as efficient as CIGS and that means 1/2 to 1/3 the equipment, the cost and the land needed as compared to PV or CIGS. Add to that land prep is minimal as compared to PV, trough or power tower.</p><p>Demetri</p>
Comment
16 of 20
February 21, 2008
<p>I can answer the question about cost of the SES system. I'm the first shareholder in SES in 1996. As I remember costs are contingent on mass production. SES is working diligently on lining up its supply chain and is very close to mass production. Targets are 10's of thousands units per year or 2500 MW per year. They need these rates of production&nbsp;to meet demand for current and new power supply&nbsp;agreements they are bidding on. They expect to meet these rates by 2010/12. At these production rates target installed SES dish is less then $25k each or under $1 per installed kilowatt. That beats any solar device I know of.</p><p>As to maintenance for the SES system, yes its a cost but a small one. Dishes are designed to be self cleaning and will require a wash about once a year. Engine maintenance is needed only every 100,000 on-sun hours. This has been proven by a Sandia sponsored reliability program.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Demetri</p>
Comment
17 of 20
February 21, 2008
Another question to look at is the embodied energy-how much energy do you get of the technology for each unit you put in. I've seen PV range from 10:1 to 2:1. Even if PV is 2 out for 1 in, that means it should be sustainable. Perhaps the Stirling system is better. I'd love to see the calcs.

Regarding renewables as functioning as the grid, see the clip of a pilot program of a green combination power plant in Germany.

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/1/7/21139/94466
Comment
18 of 20
February 21, 2008
Another question to look at is the emboddied energy-how much energy do you get of the technology for each unit you put in. I've seen PV range from 10:1 to 2:1. Even if PV is 2 out for 1 in, that means it should be sustainable. Perhaps the sterling system is better. I'd love to see the calcs.

Regarding renewables as funtioning as the grid, see the clip of a pilot program of a green combination power plant in Germany.

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/1/7/21139/94466
Comment
19 of 20
February 23, 2008
SES doesn't publish price from starting, when i called the reception was rude. She told they supply only to government and BIG power plants.<p>InfiniaCorp looks like for rest of us.</p><p>Their stirling dish engine costs 20,000 a piece for 3.5 kw system</p><p>http://www.infiniacorp.com/main.php</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>They raised 50 million $ recently.&nbsp;</p><p>http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/11/clean-energy-startup-infinia-raises-50-million-to-crank-up-manufacturing</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Can anyone calculate the economies of 20 grand a peice for 3.5 kwh system?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>Ram </p>
Comment
20 of 20
March 2, 2008
I believe we should give Sandia and &nbsp;SES credit for achiving what no one else has. We must applaud those whose researsh exceed the previous marks.
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