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Continental Grid Vision Needed

By Martin Rosenberg, EnergyBiz Magazine
December 11, 2007   |   24 Comments

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We are talking about equipment deployed before a man walked on the Moon, before cell phones and the Internet, when Frank Sinatra was in his prime.
24 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 24
December 11, 2007
There is a new "world wide web" emerging right before our eyes. It is a global energy network and, like the internet, it will change our culture, society and how we do business. More importantly, it will alter how we use, transform and exchange energy.

For more information, see http://www.terrawatts.com
Comment
2 of 24
December 11, 2007
Without the grid we would have nothing, as far as cheap centralized power production. However to keep up with the times we now need to focus on upgrading the grid for decentralized power production. The present grid is outdated and should be enlarged as well as replaced entirely. Underground would be nice, unsightly and very expensive.
Infrastructure and reliabilty is a utility/government issue that should be ongoing now.

Lastly will someone out there please expain why telephone and cable companies are allowed to charge 4 to 5 times as much for their land based systems compared to the power companies, who in my mind have a much greater liability and infrastructure? Perhaps we should require they pay for the new grid!

jb
www.nrgmanager.com
Comment
3 of 24
December 11, 2007
This is a great article about something that is often overlooked.
Comment
4 of 24
December 12, 2007
You'd do much better 'living locally' if you happened to have a nuclear power plant nearby.
Solar thermal and biomass and so on are great, but the inefficiencies of relying mainly on local power with renewables are too great - witness the truly daft idea of house-top urban windmills.
If you want to spend a lot of money for little result, they are fine, but on the whole you are better off sticking windmills high up someplace where it is windy.
For that you need a decent grid.
Comment
5 of 24
December 12, 2007
Tom Marsh and Eugene Lucas have the right idea. With power being generated on roof tops and by wind turbines all around the country, all connected to the Contintal Grid, on average, generation is much closer to the users. This at a stroke greatly reduces the 25 or so percent of our power which is at present lost in long distance transmission and reduces the need for increasing the size of our grid. It also provides an "internet effect" in which our power supply can not be knocked out by some natural or man made disaster. When the brown stuff really hits the wind pusher in some area, other areas can cut themselves off from the National Grid and get along reasonably well by themselves.
Comment
6 of 24
December 12, 2007
Paul, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, in many places in Europe there is extensive local power production, using things like burning refuse, geothermal and all sorts.
It really needs a better grid to reach the next stage, but not all renewable resources are intermittent as is the case for solar and wind, where it is really critical.
Comment
7 of 24
December 12, 2007
Both of the last two posts point out the very reasons why localized power generation is not really an option at this time.
Comment
8 of 24
December 12, 2007
Eugene:
What would you do when the sun wasn't shining?
You can either store energy or transfer it from someplace else, and it tends to be cheaper to put it down an electricity cable.
Batteries currently cost around $300KwH to store electricity!
Comment
9 of 24
December 12, 2007
If we could just design and build $3/watt solar panels, made with plentiful materials (not Indium and Gallium)there would be an energy revolution, where locally generated power might obviate the need for an expanded grid. Energy conservation could accomplish the same thing in the short term.
Comment
10 of 24
December 12, 2007
How smart is it to leverage world infrastructure over local infrastructure?? Smart energy (ie: sustainable) without a strong infrast. is like an Olympic Power Lifter with a week back!

We don't want to fight in wars. Mankind can do so much better than that. If we have the inherent "need seemingly" to fight; build more gyms with boxing arenas and increase the arena fighting. Let people fight amoungst themselves-man to man in competition,...not for energy. We'll always be able to come back from a bloody nose, but not from a bullet or toxic gas.

All the Best,
Comment
11 of 24
December 12, 2007
Marketing and brand recognition will always preceed sales and the fruition of said marketing effort.

Someone up above said that the public needs to be more aware of our "infrastructure" weaknesses, etc. How many people know anything about our ailing transmission in this country. They know McDonald's and Mobile/Exxon.

Please,...let's see who wins the election; and it will be based on strong standing on these sustainable topics and CO2 emissions. Once the elections are over and all the hugs and kisses are waning- it will be time for early 21st Century action.

We have PV, BiPV coming to many buildings, mandate leadership in California and new batteries that can run a car 200-300 miles without recharging in the near future being ready for mass production.

All the ideas are coming, and will play out in the next decade. A strong grid is nothing more or less than the "most needed" element in transmission of power;whether coal, nuc, geothermal, PV, sun[], tidal, etc.
Comment
12 of 24
December 12, 2007
Greg, here are a couple of power grid references for you:
http://www.iset.uni-kassel.de/abt/w3-w/folien/wind21/overview.html
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9539765
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/06/44516
http://www.desertec.org/
Dead handy for massive solar and wind plants, and also for distributed microgeneration.
Comment
13 of 24
December 12, 2007
The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission put out plans for National transmission corridors. FERC could promote national integration for the betterment of society, but instead, it seems they're just trying to help dirty old coal plants reach customers in high priced areas, and facilitate more coal power development.
The Eastern corridors, especially, are drawing much opposition for going through natural areas and civil war battle fields.
Sadly, it seems that whenever we approach a fork in the road, we chose the wrong path. (like when we had a choice between developing either solar or nuclear into a large scale technology)
Comment
14 of 24
December 12, 2007
solve the big grid problem is to use more wet RE from flowing river ,streams ,tides , even the city sewers . 4paz.org have several new working ideas in this field. That only need good backing to perfect them.
You all know what up -ski cable and the power you get from kites . drag lines. ideas are all on record with a.y.r.s London which are either being use or waiting to be used .Join and find out more. Catalyst many years. Some members off this org are way-ahead of the normal commercial company's . these new ideas could and will solve a lot of the problems Like the kite energy nape rotors which are ready for the world . Even a 3rd world generator that is made locally . sewing machine to make the simple drive kites.Which are better than any type of WT blade . Wind or water RE .
Comment
15 of 24
December 12, 2007
I'd like to know more about any E-Grid studies or develpoments, or this world wid web grid.Michael i'll check out your website.
Comment
16 of 24
December 12, 2007
Why not greatly reduce the need for transmission by relying on site-generated power?
Comment
17 of 24
December 12, 2007
What is really needed is a DC 'backbone' for the grid - it is the only way to transfer energy really lng distances and economically deal with variable resources like wind power by averaging across large distances as the wind is usually blowing somewhere.
It would also allow solar thermal from the South-West to be used elsewhere.
Here are the details of a costed plan for Europe:
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2007/11/supergrid-to-su.html#more
Comment
18 of 24
December 13, 2007
Contributors so disenchanted with our imperfect grid would do well to remember that one in four humans alive today live without the electricity we take for granted.
Lacking power for irrigation, refrigeration, illumina-tion and recreation, their lives in the year 2007 are governed by the rotation of the earth about its axis, and its revolutions about the sun.

Closer to home, our countrymen in the midwest may go without power for as long as two weeks in the aftermath of recent storms. There, power interruptions mean no fillups at the corner "gas-n-go", and no cash at the ubiquitous ATMs. Plan accordingly.
Comment
19 of 24
December 15, 2007
Perhaps we could gut some of the money going towards nuclear R&D.

<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/energyresearch.png">http://greyfalcon.net/energyresearch.png</a>
Comment
20 of 24
December 16, 2007
100 amp hour 12 volt = about 1kWh (amps x volt = watts), I would hope that on a massive scale (like entertainment), the cost would drop from $100 to $10. Yet it costs at least $1,000 for said installed kWh. This means that even if battery prices were as expensive as auto batteries, it would <font color="lime"> be way cheaper than most of us could imagine !</font> Remember the red type above...
Comment
21 of 24
December 16, 2007
FEAR <font color="red">Post Oil Crisis!!!</font>
Comment
22 of 24
December 16, 2007
EUGENE,
What's wrong with indium? I got some and they work fine and only use abou 1% of the material (as compared to silicon)! Sellium, part of the AWSOME CIGS concept is actually a vitamin in garlic!
Comment
23 of 24
December 16, 2007
Self suffiency should always be a prime goal not just for personal or communal reasons but for personal and national security reasons . It also restores the balance of perspective required to assess our own performance in terms of efficiency and enlighten us as to our roll in the scheme of things . But more importantly it is the only route to a true democracy . Do not give others power over you unless you are prepared to enforce accountability i. e. enforcement of existing laws that require an adequate number of politians etc to serve an adequate number of jail sentences .
Comment
24 of 24
December 16, 2007
Self suffiency should always be a prime goal not just for personal or communal reasons but for personal and national security reasons . It also restores the balance of perspective required to assess our own performance in terms of efficiency and enlighten us as to our roll in the scheme of things . But more importantly it is the only route to a true democracy . Do not give others power over you unless you are prepared to enforce accountability i. e. enforcement of existing laws that require an adequate number of politians etc to serve an adequate number of jail sentences .
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