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Solar Needs Brain Power

July 20, 2007   |   23 Comments

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"The single biggest factor to bring down solar cost per watt is moving to larger substrates, on tools whose development was paid for by the folks who make television sets."

-- Charlie Gay, Applied Materials Inc., corporate vice president and general manager of the solar business group
23 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 23
July 20, 2007
<p>If industry could produce&nbsp;a 500w panel for $500 to $1000, I think you'd have a demand curve that would go potentially strait up.&nbsp; I realize it may be a couple of more years before the industry could get to this point if they wanted to get to this point.&nbsp;&nbsp;However as&nbsp;I read about efficiency, increased cost, watts per panel, etc., who is really asking the consumer, what would you be willing to pay and what would you expect.&nbsp; </p><p>Here's a suggested next&nbsp;x-prize challenge.&nbsp; An organization needs to produce a 500 watt&nbsp;solar panel for $500 within a profitable business model.&nbsp; I'll buy 20.&nbsp; If we took this consumer approach and funded a trust for the prize of everyone waiting to buy, we could easily raise a 10 million dollar prize.&nbsp; Anyone in?</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
2 of 23
July 20, 2007
<p>I'm probably the only one in the country or maybe the world that thinks solar should not come down more in price. I think the best answer is for fossil fuels and nuclear to stop getting subsidies. Then peope will see how good the cost of solar and wind are.</p><p>I also feel if we have lots of cheap solar people will not be efficient. Even clean renewable power can be wasted. Let's just get people to see how valuable clean energy is that uses not water and makes no pollution. It's here now and with efficiency it works better than any othr source of energy.</p><p>Let's work on education and not on waiting for cheaper power. We have the answers so let's use them and fight to stop waste and subsidies. We don't want cheap power we want clean energy that&nbsp;is sustainable.</p><p>Jiminy solar Stack&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
Comment
3 of 23
July 20, 2007
<p>&quot;But the cost to the end consumer has risen over the last 5 years dispite increased production&quot;</p><p>&nbsp;That is true however there is no free market in PV industry - demand outstrips supply by big margin hence there is no competition that is why the prices are so high. When the supply catch up with the demant the prices will fall. The technology havent stopped improving and wont stop soon - now the problems are economical.</p>
Comment
4 of 23
July 20, 2007
<span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana">Hi All:</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana">Ya, Ya... But the cost to the end consumer has risen over the last 5 years dispite increased production... In order for the market forces to &quot;play out&quot; you can not have elements in there holding prices up. There is too much HUGE money in there against renewables. Too much money to be made from oil, in the Trillions. They are not going to give those profits up... Look at the automobile and the ICE. Do you really think that all the brilliant scientists and engineers out there that have made technology progress over the past 60 years in this world,&nbsp;just happen to be stupid and have completely failed at every turn when trying to improve the energy performance of the automobile..??.. I don't think so... It is not that the complete solution is sitting on a shelf somewhere, it is that people with the power and resources and most importantly the visibility, can see the &quot;fuses&quot; that must not be lit that would lead to a renewable energy &quot;bang&quot;. You don't kill the person, you prevent them from being born in the first place... Such has been RE over the past half century....</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana">&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana">.....Bill&nbsp;</span> <p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
5 of 23
July 20, 2007
<p>This is an excellent read on the state of the industry.&nbsp;</p><p>The US auto industry, chemical industry and&nbsp;semiconductor/optics industry has all the equipment sitting idle due to slowdowns in their respective industries. If everyone of these players understood that their&nbsp;equipment and services are in need and tooled up for the renewables, they will find buyers waiting in line for the&nbsp;raw materials. And as these processes become more streamlined prices will drop and the&nbsp;end consumer will become more&nbsp;acceptable to purchasing. And if these industries would understand the value of recycling as a resource for some of those materials they may find that a sustainable economy is on the horizon, how quickly it will appear is up to them.</p><p>JB;&nbsp;<a href="http://www.nrgmanger.com/" target="_blank">www.nrgmanger.com</a>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
6 of 23
July 21, 2007
<p>There must be a simple calcuation that shows where the breakeven point per solar generated K-watt lies realative to current meter based electricity.</p><p>&nbsp;If we all knew where that point is, we could all calcuation how many fold solar systems have to drop in price for them to be economically justifiable.</p><p>&nbsp;I'd appreciate any posts on &quot;breakeven logic.&quot;</p><p>&nbsp;Thanks,</p><p>j</p>
Comment
7 of 23
July 21, 2007
<p>Solar is at top of the energy density tree. It's the least condensing of power per square meter to harness beside the fact the sunlight&nbsp; is avialable at its peak intensity only few hours per day. Therefore the mojor road block to make it &quot;cheap&quot; is the cost of material. The title of the blog says it all: It needs ---- BRAIN ---&nbsp; Otherwise . . .</p><p>Phi&nbsp; (www.neo-aerodynamic.com)&nbsp;</p>
Comment
8 of 23
July 21, 2007
<p>Maybe the cost of production in China and the Phillipines is such that low wages are the key to a competitive edge rather than any technical advantage.&nbsp;Does anyone in China or the Phillipines check whether the employees aren't slaves or that industrial waste isn't dumped into the nearest river?&nbsp; Some of the manufacturers want market share and western environmental social concerns are not mentioned.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
9 of 23
July 22, 2007
I don't think anybody understands the scope of the problem and the solutions! If we can achieve $1/Watt solar power, all bets are off.&nbsp; We will need hundreds of square miles of whatever form the solution takes!&nbsp; I see companies talking about 25-50 megawatts per year. In California we use 50,000 megawatts on a hot summer day, so somebody (the government?) better start thinking big - very big!
Comment
10 of 23
July 22, 2007
<p>Hi Jeff.</p><p>It's depend on your cost per kwh. in my case it is $0.12&nbsp; (12 cent).</p><p>This mean that if a solar pannel is producing 1watt (usually they cite the rarely peak) you will save $0,00012 per peak hour.</p><p>After this is point is to have hours of&nbsp; good estimate number of 'GOOD sunlight' per day then per year.&nbsp; In my case I take generously 4 hours per day of good sunghlight. Then 1 watt solar cell will save me (4 * 365 * 0.00012)= $0.1752 per year.<br /> </p><p>This also mean that it will you a 17.5% return if 1W solar pannel cost $1.00 installed (it should include assessory minus government incentives?). </p><p>Then it's up to one's perspective to decide if it's good to do so.</p><p>Good luck and have fund.</p><p>Phi (neo-aerodynamic.com)</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
11 of 23
July 23, 2007
<p>HI Jeff and Eugen.</p><p>I hope I may not cause you misunderstanding .</p><p>My firgure is 17.5% IF it is $1.00/W</p><p>from then it would be&nbsp; </p><p>(%17.5/2) =%8.75&nbsp; if it is $2.00 /watt and </p><p>%17.5/3 =%5.84 if&nbsp;&nbsp; it is&nbsp; $3.00 /watt . . so on&nbsp;</p><p>Also take into your considering the REAL and the CLAIMED cost /watt.</p><p>Hope this helps.&nbsp;</p>
Comment
12 of 23
July 23, 2007
<p><span><font color="#1f509c">Thanks - to Phi Tran</font></span></p><p><span><font color="#1f509c">I live in New Orleans but plan to relocate to a country house in Wisconsin that runs on only electric heat at this time.&nbsp; I plan on spending the rest of my life on this 60 acres that is surronded by wetlands on 3 sides - so wiill probably never have natural gas as an option.&nbsp; So perhaps I could make your 17.5 percent payback calulation work - but i think that electric is only about 6 cent a kwatt as opposed to doulbe that in the NE, so maybe not.&nbsp; </font></span></p><p><span>If the math works then this industry is more in need of good salesman that more technology, because most people can not figure it out.</span></p><p><span>&nbsp;Thanks,</span></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><span>j</span></p><p><span></span></p>
Comment
13 of 23
July 24, 2007
<p><span>EUGENE,</span></p><p>&nbsp;We have hundreds of square miles of naked rooftops. Meaning that there are no solar panels on them.</p><p>&nbsp;And yes, the 100x growth of solar is posible. It just takes big investers. However, if the industry was a 100x larger there would be a slow down because of over production. If panels last 30 to 40 years, and people don't change them in this period, then if everyone has panels, who is going to buy them?</p><p>&nbsp;What is needed is a known amount of time before they are replace by newer and beter panels.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
14 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p><span>Hi Chuck Conover</span></p><p>Could&nbsp; you share with us YOUR REAL, ACTUALL&nbsp; COST/WATT on the field and on the paper supplied by the manufacture? </p><p>Please include all assessory and installation .</p><p>Those numbers are 'hard to find'</p><p>Thanks</p><p>Phi.&nbsp;</p>
Comment
15 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p>I am a technology attorney in Houston.&nbsp; I just completed a master's degree, my thesis compared&nbsp;EU and US policies on solar and distributed generation.&nbsp; I would like to build the solar industry with Brain Power from Houston.&nbsp; </p><p>Houston has a tremendous chemical industry as well as several huge semiconductor companies, like Texas Instruments (who I worked for) and HP.&nbsp; Applied Materials has offices close by in Austin.&nbsp; </p><p>We have amazing Nanotech research facilities at Rice University's Center for Nanotechnology, where the late Dr. Rick Smalley was awarded a nobel prize for his work witih fullerenes and carbon nanotubes.&nbsp; UH also has nanotech facilities. In addition, UH is home to physicis professors who did some of the original demonstrations of concentrated solar thermal plants 30 years ago.&nbsp; This is solid, proven technology.</p><p>Houston currently has NO solar industry - but&nbsp;it is time to change that.&nbsp; Houston has phenomenal financial resources, and with a little coordiantaion could be the center for new solar manufacturing.&nbsp;</p><p>If anyone wants to work with me to inititate the solar industry in Houston, please let me know.</p><p>&nbsp;Tyra Rankin</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
16 of 23
July 25, 2007
Getting the cost side down sometimes is an achievement better put on trying to stimulate the demand side of the equation. I have always advocated that someone should take from their IRA or ROTH-IRA funds to build a solar panel or wind generator in their backyard. The govenment could make this a legitimate withdrawal of funds. However a $20,000 limitation may be needed. Or make a corporation and it buys back the electricity at the going rate. All of this being from the backyard. Pay yourself first. I would think this structure would be better suited to a ROTH-IRA than a traditional IRA. Excess electricity equals retirement money. If you have rental or commerical property this also would be a way to accumulate wealth by having in affect a ROTH-IRA or retirement plan for a rental property.
Comment
17 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p>Solar works now.&nbsp; My PV system will cost me .14 KWh, if it lasts 25 years.&nbsp; Cost today for grid power here (AZ) is .085 KWh.&nbsp; So, today I'm paying a premium, but grid power will double within 5 years, I'm pretty sure, so I've still made a wise investment - although monetary investment was not my primary reason to install it.&nbsp; </p><p>Remove the incentives and subsidies from coal and oil and grid power will triple in cost.</p><p>Add some brain power and production capacity to solar and my replacement parts and new installation costs will dive in cost.</p><p>Add some of those oil/coal incentives and subsidies to solar and other renewable systems and, again, PV systems will dive in cost.</p><p>I had to laugh.&nbsp; The title of this story made me think of Microsoft producing solar products.&nbsp; Just what I need.&nbsp;&nbsp; My solar PV system producing triple the power, but crashing every 4 hours!&nbsp; LOL!</p><p>My solar PV system can be seen at <a href="http://www.zapsys.com/solarpanels.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.zapsys.com/solarpanels.jpg</a></p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
18 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p>Think BIG.&nbsp; We do need brain power to&nbsp;achieve the&nbsp;production size required to bring the costs down to be competitive.&nbsp; Here's the big picture.&nbsp; These numbers are approximate.&nbsp; Assumption, (100 % solar PV) at end game.&nbsp; I realize&nbsp;100% PV is&nbsp;not realistic, but this is simply an&nbsp;example&nbsp;to&nbsp;give&nbsp;you a &quot;feel&quot; for the scale of solution.&nbsp; There are a number of factors that can change&nbsp;the numbers&nbsp;dramatically.&nbsp; </p><p>Energy Needs:&nbsp; Current worldwide energy consumption, 400 quads.&nbsp; US energy consumption 100 quads.&nbsp; At an efficiency of about 12% we will need approximately 28 miles by 28 miles&nbsp;(30 million acres)of solar to cover our&nbsp;entire energy budget.&nbsp; To cover only the electrical demand, it is closer to 10 miles by 10 miles (10 million acres).&nbsp;&nbsp; </p><p>Land availability:&nbsp; In the US we have about 30 million acres of military bases, 120 million acres of urban and suburban sprawl, 140 million acres of highway right-of-way, and 10 million acres of fallow farmland.&nbsp; </p><p>Production required to meet the electrical demand in 15 years.&nbsp; 60 units producing 8' strips, at 2 feet per second.&nbsp; Triple this for the entire energy budget.</p><p>Assuming a life to 30 years per cell, and entirely solar, replacement production will be about 1 million acres/yr or 30 production units operating at 2 fps.</p><p>This is an attainable goal.&nbsp; It is attainable by us, in our lifetime.&nbsp; We should be encouraged by the progress, and set our goals higher.</p><p>john</p>
Comment
19 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p>Funny, no one has mentioned the way Citizenre will be making panels affordable to many by using economies of scale to produce them more cheaply, using a very inexpensive marketing method, with dedicated Ecopreneurs who are just as much interested in&nbsp;educating about renewables and climate change as getting customers (our website is called &quot;<strong>jointhesolution</strong>,&quot; not &quot;buysolar!)&nbsp;and then renting the result, so people don't have a big outlay. David Gregg is definitely Brain Power, but business brain power. This is really what is needed!</p><p>But Citizenre isn't the only company with a business plan that thinks of getting panels on roofs, of course.&nbsp;SunEdison says &quot;<strong>Bright Idea: Buy solar <em>electricity</em>, not panels. Simplifying Sola</strong>r&quot;&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>
Comment
20 of 23
July 25, 2007
<p>The thought of a dream society relying on renewable energy sources has to be <strong><em>sold</em></strong> to the society at large with all of their wants and 'needs' <em>now</em>.&nbsp; The industry technology may be secondary to a larger need for a change in thinking.&nbsp; I have faith in science and the old adage 'where there is a will there is a way.'</p><p>&nbsp;The thought of taking away subsudies on oil and other not so renewable sources of power, pollution factored in or not, would have to be offset with better mass transit where those that could not afford the $5.00 a gallon gas prices (like in Europe) could get to their jobs without going bankrupt.&nbsp; </p><p>To ween the 'first world countries' off their habit, could be very much like that of an addict going through withdrawl.&nbsp; How do we find the the various methods to get off the drug? Will it be a rehab clinic, a replacement drug, going 'cold turkey'?&nbsp; We have to find different ways&nbsp;that work for every&nbsp;user.</p>
Comment
21 of 23
July 26, 2007
Why worry about &quot;wasting&quot; clean energy, don't think the prices will ever come down that much. What we should do is worry about wasting what ever energy we use now because what's left of that multi-trillion dollar fossel market is not going to be left for us, unless in the form of rations and less freedom!
Comment
22 of 23
Tyra Rankin, count me in&nbsp;for the Mechanical Engineering. Consider solar benefits are readily achievable in cold climates.&nbsp; Houston has energy, oil, power, and financial. Further north achieves further benefit from local solar renewable to the obvious.&nbsp; Three year ROI is common in cold climates with small convience penalty.&nbsp; Foreseable Inovation within 3 yrs will make off-grid generation feasible in Houston.&nbsp; See groups.yahoo.com/group/cornstoves or msnusers.com/cornstoves
Comment
23 of 23
August 14, 2007
<p>Tyra, While I may not be able to help setting this up in Houston, am sure interested in starting this in India. Do let me know if we can collaborate on cost saving technology / since fabrication, assembly and putting together the system can be considerably cheaper in India and while PV panels would contribute to bulk of the cost, considerable savings in the non-PV area of the home solar system may be able to bring overall costs down.</p><p>My blogspot - pure-n-green.blogspot.com</p>
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