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Amtrak, Solar Cost Comparisons & the 2-4x Myth

By Dave P. Buemi, Prescient Marketing
May 21, 2007   |   19 Comments

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I believe it is time for the solar industry to set a new standard for how to talk about PV costs in relation to the marketplace. The industry needs a consistent set of cost comparisons that clearly states the cost (whether retail, wholesale, or manufactured cost) and includes subsidies and externalities that are not currently accounted for or highlighted adequately.

The information and views expressed in this article are those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on its Web site and other publications.

19 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 19
May 21, 2007
The percent of utility electricity from renewables has actually gone down since 1980. According to the DOE Energy Information Administration, kWh from fossil fuels remains about the same (67.4%), nuclear electricity has almost doubled (from 9.7% to 18.1%), large hydro declined from 10.9% to 6.2% and renewables declined from 11.1% to 8.3%. One would think that utilities would offer an alternative to resource depleting, polluting electricity, but utility short-sightedness is nothing new. In 1960, Theodore Levitt wrote about it in his classic Harvard Business Review essay, "Marketing Myopia" http://www.carreirasolo.org/archives/arquivos/MarketingMyopia.pdf "Who says that the utilities have no competition? They may be natural monopolies now, but tomorrow they may be natural deaths. To avoid this prospect, they too will have to develop fuel cells, solar energy and other power sources. To survive, they themselves will have to plot the obsolescence of what now produces their livelihood."
Comment
2 of 19
May 21, 2007
Great article!
Comment
3 of 19
May 23, 2007
Mr. Buemi,

I'm with you philosophically, but your piece is less than convincing. Show me the numbers!! You talk about subsidies and externalities, but the only thing you quantify is a German study on the externalities of coal. At 5-7 Euro cents/kWh for externalities from coal, solar is still far more expensive to consumers when we consider that Germans receive 51 Euro cents/kWh as a subsidy for solar PV.

I think we have to acknowledge that solar PV is indeed quite expensive today (with or without subsidies) - and do our best to bring costs down.
Comment
4 of 19
May 23, 2007
Here's a link to a brandnew study on subsidies finding that coal receives more in Germany than wind does:
http://www.greenprices.com/eu/newsletter/GPBE_52_070516/Subsidies.asp

Deals with the exact same topic in Europe - may be useful for some of you.

www.envint.ca
Comment
5 of 19
May 23, 2007
While it is very difficult to quantify the subsidies for oil & coal it might be possible to give a ball park figure e.g. oil & coal depreciation for removed deposits no longer in "inventory" likely can be quantified doubtlessly there are MANY other examples.

If one assumed that the Iraq war was about oil, then every person in the country has had ~$1300 spent in their name over the last 4+ years.

If the dollar amounts could be put into a per person cost it would be MUCH easier to asses the costs.

IF there is to be a level playing field then renewables should be given similar subsidies, perhaps not equal due to the frequent intermitant nature of renewables.

Big money won't like this, but it is a sensible thing to do. Oil dependance is a BIG problem.
Comment
6 of 19
May 23, 2007
So for no one has acknowledged that it is unlikely Renewable Energy will ever be able to directly compete with fossil fuels. For one thing the infrastructure is close to fully depreciated while Renewables for the most part haven't even been installed. Solar & wind can compete in niche markets where one would have to pay to bring the utility to the area.

If one is going to supply the energy requirements 24/7/365 from Renewables one has to have a larger collection than is the normal usage & store the unused for peak & when no energy is being captured.

The teasury doesn't have the resources today. It will have even less when the baby-boomers Retire.

The time table to start the transformation to Renewables is closing fast. Even my solution of having Sellable spin-off benefits to subsidize the cost of the infrastructure is drying up!
Comment
7 of 19
May 23, 2007
The subsidy numbers are kind of meaningless as presented. The air travel industry provides 100x as many passenger miles as Amtrak, so its total subsidy should be bigger. On a per mile basis Amtrak's subsidy is much higher. Same with highways, which deliver almost 1000x as many passenger miles as Amtrak.

The list of energy subsidies is pretty fuzzy. How is the grant of access to oil underneath the ground any more of a subsidy than a "grant of access" to the wind that blows across the ground or the sun that falls on it? How is price regulation a subsidy?

If renewables are truly cheaper when factoring in subsidies and externals, then a conversion to 100% renewable would save money overall. I've found some instances where this works (e.g. plug-in hybrids due to artificially inflated oil prices), but the math doesn't work for energy as a whole. It's getting closer, though.
Comment
8 of 19
May 23, 2007
Great article. Great example with Amtrak. It is hard, if not impossible, to name a major infrastructure industry in the US that has not received heavy subsidies. Until recently, if accelerated growth of an industry was perceived to be in the best interest of the country, then we subsidized it. This is true of the Auto industry, banking, rail, Internet, housing, fossil fuels, timber, agriculture, mining, electric utilities etc. And none of them complained. It is silly to expect an immature technology to compete with mature technologies. The question is whether it is in the best interest of the country to accelerate growth of renewables. The answer is clearly an unequivocal yes.
Comment
9 of 19
May 23, 2007
As Mr. Buemi points out, current subsidies to the fossil fuel market may be significant, but the actual subsidy programs and dollars are hard to isolate. This fuzzy information doesn't give even the most committed Congressperson much to act on.

Let's also keep in mind how tightly our national economy is coupled to fuel prices. By removing oil & coal subsidies, fuel prices will go up tremendously and ripple through the rest of our economy in destructive ways. We could raise taxes to provide similar subsidies to renewables, but not without a great deal of public resistance.

These are difficult problems. It is imperative that we substantially reduce our reliance on fossil fuels - soon - but an abrupt redistribution of subsidies could be a reckless move. Renewables such as solar are rapidly gaining public acceptance, and prices (hopefully) will be coming down soon. With hard work, proactive public communication, and careful policy adjustments, we may not need to shock the system.
Comment
10 of 19
May 23, 2007
Excellent article. I read the same study by the German DLR and I think the 5 to 7 cent/kwhr estimated external cost is on the low end and an argument for numbers as much as 3 to 4 times these munbers could be made. Thus making Mr. Buemi's argument even atronger and more compelling. All we need is for the folks in Washington to START being "public servants" and STOP being "politicans".
Comment
11 of 19
May 23, 2007
Workable energy resource requirements, Independent of being Renewable:
1) Energy available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and 365 days a year.
2) At retail level directly compete with energy resources for today's activity - if not, sellable spin-off benefits to subsidize the cost.
3) Transportable
4) Technology available.
5) No more environmentally harmful than competing energy resources.
6) Supplies close enough to consumer that distribution capacity doesn't become an issue.
7) Politicians that back any solution be able to explain it to their constituents.
Categories the general public willingly pays a premium:
1) Comfort/Convenience______Other items they wish the
2) Recreation_____________ government or business to
3) Prestige_____4)Safety___ subsidize, like any requirement for living.
Comment
12 of 19
May 23, 2007
Our power bureaucracy is indeed short sighted, but if we want to accelerate change, we will need to demonstrate the numbers clearly. In a capitalistic system, emerging technologies have to prove themselves cost-effective in the eyes of the entrenched players. This article suggests that that fossil fuel subsidies are not calculable yet equal or exceed the 30% federal subsidy for solar. Let's see the figures on fossil fuel subsidies...then fight fire with fire.
Comment
13 of 19
Great article!
I wish the media would print these articles but I believe that BIG oil money has control over them so that we continue to believe the 2-4X MYTH as they get richer.
Comment
14 of 19
May 23, 2007
Thank you for a great article. It should be sent to every member of Congress, and every newspaper in the land. Some one should read it to W, slowly.
Comment
15 of 19
May 24, 2007
What is really needed is to ramp up the production of silicon, Si. When Si production is making enough for everyone to own panels at a cheap price then this article will be looked upon as the real value that it is worth. See the problem is not getting the government to make money it is getting the government to make Si. While we are at it we might want to produce Li too for the batteries that will power the homes of the future using Li-ion batteries.
Comment
16 of 19
May 25, 2007
Before begging authors to provide solid numbers on the old technology, everyone should check out the New Energy Congress, Top 100 Technologies. Hope has arrived!

Also, since you're using rail as an analogy, I'd like to encourage the retooling of the auto industry to improve the rail system. Doing so could help prevent closure of the American auto industry.
Comment
17 of 19
May 27, 2007
If the use of conventional utilitized electricity were to be compared to a coal fired steam locomotive, renewable energies industries would be the guy shoveling the coal.

By striving so hard to convince anyone within earshot that, the best way they have to keep up with the growing demand for energy and saving the enviroment is with renewable energies, you are realing selling the idea of needing more and more energy. Renewable or otherwise. Its a mind set. And why is this? To sell more and more product.

It could be viewed as a form of slavery on the part of energy producers overall. To willingly keep people ingnorant of the fact that they do not need electricity in order to live on Earth as a way of perpetuating profits.
Comment
18 of 19
May 29, 2007
I should add that my PV installation was subsidized. Fed and state tax breaks (which are pretty sorry), and a 40% grant from APS (Arizona) which was offered to those that moved fast. So, with that, my first point that PV is currently break even to the consumer is not valid.
Comment
19 of 19
May 29, 2007
I don't agree that PV is 2-4X coal, even with subsidies, TO THE CONSUMER. To the producer, possibly, but my own cost analysis estimates that my PV installation is probably break even at today's 8.5 cents/KWh. Essentially, I'll break even in 20 years, at which point I'll probably be replacing most of the expensive parts. Thus, it's a wash. That's at today's prices. My incentive, aside from being green, is that today's prices will be a dream in 5 years, just like $1/gal gasoline is a dream today.
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