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There has been a buzz in the air lately. It's the sound of U.S.-based Citizenre, a new multi-level marketing machine targeting solar power. Their plan? Build "the world's largest" solar cell and module manufacturing plant with the stated intention to install 100,000 residential systems annually. Their pitch? You can have solar electric power for the same price that you currently pay for electricity. Sign up now and they will do the installation in September as long as your state offers net metering.
The information and views expressed in this article are those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on its Web site and other publications.
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381 Reader Comments
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2 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
We have celebrities representing us and famous musicians writing songs about our business model!
I think that alot of people will feel very ashamed of them selves for jumping to conclusions on matters they are uneducated on. |
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3 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Whenever you shake up a business model as thoroughly as Citizenre has, you end up rattling a few cages. If I were a solar installer, of course I would be concerned. I would probably have written an article just like this to help spread FUD (fear-uncertainty-doubt) -- it's an old technique.
Consider the source. Does Mr. Wolfe have anything to lose? C'mon, this site hosts a veritable "who's who" of established solar players; groSolar among them. P.S. To critique our inverter technology is to be ignorant of DR. Rob Wills' work, he is world-renowned in this area. The rest of his opinion, is well...opinion. |
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4 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
You see we are not having any problem bringing in Leaders into our company. Infact this is only a taste of whats to come. You will see more and more key industry players joining us in the coming weeks!
When you find out who is behind us you will really be excited. I know I was! |
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5 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
On the topic of UL certification:
We do not foresee an issue with receiving UL listing, based on the fact that our Vice-President - Manufacturing has achieved UL listing in the past for Photovoltaics and our Chief Technology Officer has past UL with power electronics several times before. What's more, our CTO (Dr. Robert Wills)sits on both rule making panels for UL and IEEE in regards to photovoltaics and distributed generation |
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6 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
We protect people from the investment risk. Why SPEND tens of thousands of dollars on a system that in 5- 10 years will cost a fraction of the price you pay now? You SPEND $30,000 and something better comes out ten years later that is more efficient and a fraction of the cost, you can't just discard your $30,000 "investment" because that would be a waste of your money.
We are attracting several highly respected names from all around the solar industry who are moving accross country just to get involved. Go to the Corporate website and look and see who our CTO is. You will be very pleased with our selection! . |
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7 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
You look over the past 30 years the solar industry has been around and the number of installations have been on average 1,000 per year in the residential market.
Then you look at the number of committed customers we have brought in over the past 5 months and you can see why things can get a little tense. We are a disruptive service that blocks homeowners from the RISK of investing even $20,000 into pv technology. We tell everyone who comes aboard that this is thier CHOICE and we are not forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. We also tell you not to quit your day job that we are in our pilot phase until further notice. Unfortunately a PhD will not do anything for you in sales it's just plain and simple. It's not for everybody. You don't learn how to deal with people in a classrom. It's a drag that people have to get attention by blasting a company that has dismissed them. |
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8 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Mr. Catino, perhaps you should identify yourself as a CitizenRe "Independent ECOpreneur", as you are listed on their website, your IDS #3000002854. My own disclosure is complete.
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9 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
I would offer to Rhonda and all the others who have signed up for CitizenRE's program that there are many qualified solar dealers who stand ready to provide and install working PV systems TODAY. Systems can be financed with a home equity loan or a new home mortgage, or purchased outright as a replacement for a different discretionary purchase. In many areas this may result in reduced overall monthly costs, as well as an increase to your home's value. This is the win-win-win available today from your local solar dealer. You OWN the system. You get the SAVINGS. You help BEAT Global Warming. And it's real, right now. Information on dealer selection is available on many state energy websites, and on this site www.renewableenergyaccess.com.
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10 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Thanks are due to Jeff Wolfe for publishing his thorough and exhaustive analysis of Citizenre:'s presence and effect in the PV marketplace these past few months. I have independently come to many of the same conclusions listed above, and have seen Citizenre:'s fraudulent claims do damage to the fledgling solar industry. Citizenre:'s snake oil business model will certainly come apart in months to come, but their effect on the overall image of the PV industry will be very negative and potentially lasting.
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11 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
This news really breaks my heart. I've not been so excited about something in quite a while. Although I have not given up hope that they will make good on the integrity they claim to have, I am realistic and recognize that something is not right. I will painfully have to share this news with those I've encouraged to "sign-up". In the meantime, I will not encourage anyone to sign anything. Should we make it as far as the deposit stage I will encourage them to use a credit card as a safety net. If they don't deliver timely they can at least dispute the charge.If credit cards are not an option then it's a "no go" as far as I'm concerned.
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12 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Citizenre has not been honest with its associates about production constraints and schedules. Last night on the Sunday night conference call, the story about the plant changed. Instead of it taking six months from a March ground breaking to have installations start in September, now the story is an April groundbreaking, nine months to build the plant, and the first installations in January or February 2008. Given the number of customers already signed up, anyone who signs up today could expect no earlier than a June 2008 installation assuming the financing even exists.
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13 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
I find it interesting that Dr. Wills took the time to exchange emails with an industry email list but never took the time to send a single email or participate in a conference call with any of the 5600+ ecopreneurs. He has a lot of explaining to do to a lot of people in the industry because his credibility is what convinced many individuals, including myself, to work with Citizenre. If investors have not invested $650 million as claimed, the company is guilty of material misrepresentations and is little more than a highly unethical attempt to get independent sellers to invest their time and money to prove that a market exists so they can hopefully close their financing. I also find it interesting that the company chooses to be so incredibly secretive and so hostile to ecopreneurs who ask difficult questions instead of complying with the desired cult-like group think, take details on faith.
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14 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
I was the author of the discussion document that was leaked by someone else to www.linkitt.com and http://solarkismet.wordpress.com . As the only PhD in Citizenre's sales network whose dissertation involved photovoltaics, I became increasingly concerned about the absolute lack of verification of claims being made by the company, particularly after the promised January press releases revealing the investors and plant details never materialized. I drafted a 63 page PowerPoint presentation outlining a wide variety of concerns and problems that need to be addressed. Citizenre's management refused to answer any of these questions and was extremely hostile to individuals raising uncomfortable questions. Since there was no concern for the damage that all of the red flags could do to either the solar industry or to the 5,600+ "ecopreneurs", I chose to resign from my pending appointment as the Regional Sales Director for the Mid Atlantic Region. One other RSD also chose to resign last week.
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15 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
HHHHMMMMMMMMMM let's see? $20,000 to $40,000. DOLLARS
or NO upfront cost & a 25 year rate freeze... Yes that's a tough one... The ONLY critics are industry insiders with a lot to loose...I question THEIR HONESTY. Maybe the industry should adopt a similar business model. THAT WOULD BE A WIN WIN WIN... |
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16 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Jeffery Wolfe is correct, I have been reading the threads that Citizenre sales reps post on operations and questions that they pose to Rob Styler. I looked into joining believing that whatever avenue we take to bring solar to this country must be a good thing. I now believe that this is merely a pyramid marketing tool that is very sophisticated in its approach, but short on substance. If something is too good to be true it usually is not. I applaud Mr Wolfe for his investigation and I hope that the true professionals at groSolar and the other installers out there do not have to answer questions about the Citizenre marketing technuqe.
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17 of 381 |
February 12, 2007
Citizen could restore a ton of public faith if they address the issues raised here. I hope they do- and I hope they have the secret that allows them to deliver. If they can't I'll move on to evaluating systems available with conventional financing.
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18 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
William, I am serious and I am an adult! Are my questions to tuff? Do I get on your nerves? Is this thread not an open one? Please do not offer your condolence to a man whose very act is childish!
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19 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Note to "Jeff Wolf." Stop trolling on this commentary thread, and let the adults present have a serious discussion. Your contributions are sophomoric, emotional, and utterly devoid of logic.
My condolences to Richard George for having to tolerate your antics. |
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20 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Academically, I have a mixed finance, strategy, manufacturing engineering, and computer science background with a BS, MBA, and Ph.D. My Ph.D. dissertation developed a text data mining methodology for mining research literatures (journal articles, patents, conference papers, technical reports, funding abstracts, dissertations, etc.) for competitive intelligence and research evaluation applications. The primary dataset for my dissertation was a data warehouse with data on 116,000+ photovoltaics research outputs or >90% of everything ever published on photovoltaics. I have done similar research evaluation projects mining the wind turbine, biogas, nanotube, smart material, energy storage, climate change/global warming, quantum computing, and rapid prototyping literatures to find and evaluate technologies for potential investments.
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21 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
My professional background includes over ten years of work doing technical and financial due diligence on emerging technologies and emerging technology companies in venture capital investing, consulting, commercializing, and advisory roles, most recently working on a large project for NASA. Prior to the NASA project, I spent three years as the CTO of WorldTech, a Washington DC firm that specialized in identifying and commercializing emerging defense, homeland security, nanotech, manufacturing, and energy technologies. Before WorldTech, I was a manager at KPMG Consulting. I have additional experience doing forensic accounting and analysis on derivatives deals gone bad, penny stock frauds, and investment fraud to improve internal controls and methods for detecting fraud.
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22 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
I understand the questions and we welcome the opportunity to prove our model.
When people see our press release and institutional financing that is backing us, many doubts will be gone. Many of you obviously care deeply about the solar industry. The proof of our model will be clearly laid out over the next months, but the final test will be when our panels are on rooftops and consumers are producing their own clean solar power. Thanks Rob |
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23 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Feb. 1987 and cell phones come in a case, cost over a thousand dollars and 45 cents a minute, satelite dishes are 8-14' in diameter and cost thousands to install, security systems cost between 2-5000.00 to protect your home, so only the rich have them. What do all three fo these industries have in common? MASS MARKET, which is what Citizenre has formed their business model after. Did cell phone retailers imagine that their would be over 150 million cell phones in use in the United States and would fit in the palm of a small childs hand and the bill would be less than 50.00 a month? Did the installing satelite dealer imagine that their 12 foot dish now be only 24' and be free, and how about the alarm industry who went from 2 thousand and up alarm systems to free in the matter of overnight, what happened to these dealers of these industries?
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24 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
It looks like we cleared thing up in here. Cheers to everyone here with good intentions, good luck to the ones who speak with hostility. I wish you well!
Jeff Wolf and the rest of the positivity crew, thank you for all of your support. It's good to see people who want to see change as much as I do. |
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25 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
How do you know what their capital is? From what I have heard from a close friend of yours, you invested all your time and energy hoping to get a job with Citizenre once you did not see it in your future you took your toys went home and now have a personal vendetta! Richard, why don't you apply for someone like GE or BP?
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26 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
From what I can tell, Citizenre has plans to license patents from NREL and implement this different process. This might be a good long-term decision but I guarantee it will cause short-term headaches, including quality problems until one gets the processes tuned right. My gut sense here is that this is only at the plans stage given their lack of capital at this time. David Gregg probably has done little more that do some basic research into what it would cost to license the process and implement it. The devil is in the details, especially when one is dealing with technologies coming out of government labs and universities. These technologies often have great potential and promise but require significant investments of capital, expertise, and time (usually years and several million dollars) before they are commercially implemented on production scales. In addition, there is no guarantee that lab stage R&D will ever scale to meet commercial production requirements.
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27 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Now that I step back and look at this, one more question Mr. Wolfe: if you already had the answers prior to this post, why the HELL didn't you also post these answers yourself!?
Merriam-Webster's Definition: one who lacks courage or shows shameful fear or timidity. |
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28 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
#3 needs sufficient investments in engineers and field testing plus a minimum of two years before it would be prudent to even start a new manufacturing plant. Nanosolar started in 2001 and their first plant will come online at peak capacity in late 2008 or more likely 2009.
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29 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Except for #6, #1 to #5 are potentially viable business models with their own inherent capital requirements, staffing requirements, and risks. No professional investor is going to fund all five simultaneously - there are just too many risks. There is a reason why there are seed funding, series A, series B, and later stage funding stages that occur before you get hundreds of millions in a large funding round. You have to eliminate one or two risks, achieve some milestones, build IP, and strengthen your team during each of the seed and early stage rounds. #1 is best left to a major player who already operates multiple PV plants making the same system design - even for Nanosolar their 400 MWp plant will have many unintended delays and challenges because they are using a new technology.
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30 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
I am increasingly of the opinion that Citizenre CEO David Gregg and his team fell into the classic newbie business plan trap - create a massively detailed book business plan that has many innovative elements but requires funding levels way in excess of what would be realistic for a new team to obtain or successfully implement. When you look at the Citizenre business plan, there are six different businesses embedded in the plan:
1) 500 MW photovoltaics plant (largest scale ever) 2) Commercializing a NREL research stage process to make solar silicon from lower quality feed stocks 3) Develop a new inverter and PV system design 4) Implement a radical, capital intensive home solar rental program 5) Implement a nation-wide solar installer / distribution business with a franchising model 6) Implement a MLM solar distribution sales network |
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31 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
I believe since your questions were anwered, maybe not to your liking nonetheless answered, maybe you can answer the one posed by Dr. Wills "Is it better to try for a quantum leap that results in PV power costing less than retail electricity? Or should we sit back doing business as usual, letting the government tell us they are supporting solar while they spend many times the annual SAI budget every week in Iraq." Please be detailed in your answer.
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32 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Maybe your conclusions are wrong, obviously no one will really know until Citizenre fails. At this point, they are just getting started!
Is there any positive advise you have here that might make this work in your eyes Mr. Wolfe or are you completely against the Intentions of this new company? |
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33 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
The information just posted by Rob Styler was received by me days prior to finalizing my article. (It was posted to a list serve I belong to, at the direction of Rob Wills.) My article took account of these answers, in context with all other information received from other sources and found on the internet. None of my assertions or conclusions change based on the above information from Mr. Styler / Mr. Wills.
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34 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
I apologize for the multiple posts, but Mr. Wolfe asked a lot of questions. I hope these answers from from CTO, Dr. Rob Wills will help with your understanding of our business model.
Thanks, Rob Styler President, Powur of Citizenre (the marketing arm of Citizenre) For your information, if you would like to understand more about our business plan, we would recommend beginning with the following documents: "Solar Energy: from Perennial Promise to Competitive Alternative" (Greenpeace/KPMG) "Financing Large-Scale Increases in PV Production Capacity through Innovative Risk Management Structures and Contracts" (REPP), and "What the Solar Power Industry Can Learn from Google and Salesforce.com" (The Topline Strategy Group). All are available on the web via Google search. |
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35 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Please give us a chance to move ahead and to succeed. There is a huge amount of effort that has gone into forming Citizenre.
It's easy to attack a new idea, and to be fearful of the consequences of change. There are many in the industry who support us wholeheartedly and look forward to a time when PV has cost parity with other forms of electric generation. There will be plenty or work for all of us. Solar Energy is abundant. Dr. Robert Wills, P.E. CTO, Citizenre |
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36 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Conclusion
Ok, that's a good start. Nothing hard to answer here, nothing that takes research on the part of the company. Just real hard questions that will tell us if there is anything behind the smoke. Thanks for your time in answering this Rob. And thank you for asking. Now I would like to ask you a question: Is it better to try for a quantum leap that results in PV power costing less than retail electricity? Or should we sit back doing business as usual, letting the government tell us they are supporting solar while they spend many times the annual SAI budget every week in Iraq. |
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37 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
In that sense, all of us - big companies and small, old and new - face the same challenge. We must all do the best we can to anticipate the future's competitive challenges, and either adapt and survive, or fail in the attempt.
If Citizenre does not move ahead with its business plan, others will follow. The solar industry is about to change in very positive ways. There will not be a shortage of jobs - quite the contrary - there are opportunities in this business model for all of us, and many new people. We need people to handle logistics and distribution. We need a network of good installers ranging from large contracting firms in city areas to "one-person" shops in more remote areas. Our first PV plant alone will employ 1600 people. |
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38 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
We share the conviction that widespread solar implementation is an urgent part of the solution. It is not our intention to put the rest of the solar industry out of business-far from it. However, it IS our mission to change the trajectory of the solar and distributed generation industry. We plan to bring solar into the mainstream in a way that has never been possible before.
We understand that we are committing ourselves to a strategy that has some very big risks. Is it our intention to "play Russian roulette with the entire industry"? Of course not. Do we understand that competing against this strategy is going to be very difficult for the bulk of the existing industry? That it will inflict upon them the need to dramatically change their own business models in order to survive? Yes, we understand that. Yet we also know that the future landscape of the solar industry can't be predicted with any certainty. |
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39 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
But more importantly, if CitizenRe succeeds in stealing all the customers for the next 6 months, then fails, we'll have the double hit that many dealers will go under (no sales is bad for business) and then CitizenRe will not deliver (from what I see, highly probable). So here we are with one firm playing Russian Roulette with the entire industry, and perhaps the future of the US.
A: We understand very well that there is a great deal at stake here, and that Citizenre's actions will have significant ripple effects for the industry and for the country. |
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40 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Another way of putting this is that your grandmother could tell her friends about the possibility of solar electricity, and qualify leads. It's the franchised installer who makes the final decision as to the viability of the site and system size.
A Threat to the Solar Industry? Q: And the most fundamental question is, is CitizenRe out to put all other solar businesses out of business, since who will "buy" a system when they can just pay the electric bill at whatever level they are at? ($0.07 anyone?) Yes, we'll all be able to install for CitizenRe. Not the profitable business we've all been trying to build. Especially if we're only going to get paid for 1/2 day per job! |
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41 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
There is no cash contribution required from a sales rep - just time and a willingness to learn about solar electricity. We actively discourage sales reps from spending their own money for advertising (although a few are). We have several cooperative marketing agreements with non-profits and other companies to drive customers to us. These qualified leads are given to our associates to respond to - without charge. We have refrained from bringing this channel online and from starting our PR program at this point specifically because we know now that our sales team needs another level of training. We want to make certain that the first interaction customers have with the PV industry is a good one. As a last point, unlike MLM organizations, we ask for no money from our sales associates, and do not sell advertising or training materials.
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42 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
How is CitizenRe going to avoid the problems inherent in this sales method? I saw that in a few states, sales people are prohibited from buying more than about $495 of "sales aids" in the first 6 months of their employment. How much does the average sales person outside of these limiting states purchase in "sales aids" in the first six months? Is this a major revenue stream for CitizenRe at this point?
A: We prefer to call this "Direct Sales". We do not emphasize the multi-level aspect (the purpose for signing up is to sell solar, not to enlist downstream sales reps), and are taking steps to make sure that the sales royalty stream is fair. |
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43 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
For the customer, there will be on-going reality-checks with regards to delivery time and business plans. For example, we are integrating a new tool on our web site to predict actual site review and delivery times. Part of the training will be to help the customer understand the issues that may arise - even the risk that customers may not receive a system if all of our requirements are not met.
Q: The site also indicates that the sales strategy is pure MLM (multi-level marketing - think Amway). Yes, this marketing method can work, but it can also have a life of it's own and create major problems for customers in terms of fulfillment. |
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44 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
One point to note, nonetheless, is the different roles our sales and installation people have. Even when trained to the new standards, the independent sales associates are not expected to do a shading analysis or deal with building permits. Citizenre's model anticipates that different types of customer interactions require different skills. The sales associates are adept at building customer relationships and explaining the product at a basic level. The nuts and bolts of the installations, however, will be left to the installers who have completed NABCEP training and certification, as a minimum.
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February 13, 2007
A: The first roll-out of the marketing plan is a pilot. We have learned much from this.
All current and new sales people will undergo a much higher level of training. Many present sales people will drop out because of this. We are just as committed to ensuring the survival of the solar industry as you. We understand the necessity for each of our associates to have a high level of core knowledge and will institute this requirement this month. |
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46 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
The half-day install is for small systems (2kW and the like). Larger systems will take longer. At the size most customers will require - 4 and 5 KWp, we expect that the installation time will be a full day. We allow for this in our business models.
Sales Training Q: The CitizenRe site indicates that the sales people need to go through training before selling, as do the installers. All well and good, however, the sales people that we've spoken with do not, basically, know a thing about PV. Shading analysis? Building permits? Bill analysis? Nothing. Just sign up now and we'll get you solar in September. How is CitizenRe going to correct this? |
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47 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Installation
Q: I hear that the installs take half a day. Amazing. Even with AC modules (so no inverter hook up per se), one still has to rack and install modules. I could believe a day in some areas (1 story, low slope roofs, simple electrical entrance). But this means that the systems must be sized to avoid main taps, cannot be on tile roofs, and have to be within 20 minutes of the shop. It takes time to simply get the ladders unstrapped from the truck and leaned against the house. Telling people half a day is, in my opinion, completely unachievable, except for a very small (two panel?) system that has UF wire connecting it to a breaker. (UF wire for 20 years outside?) A: We know how much work goes in to a conventional PV installation. There are ways, however, to cut the installation time dramatically using clever design, standardized components and lifting equipment. |
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48 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
A: As stated above, we have not broken ground on the manufacturing plant; what's more, we will not even be able to break ground immediately after the location is announced. We will have, however, a fast-track permitting process and hope to begin shipments at a rate just over 8 MW per month roughly 9 months after ground-breaking. That means delivering nearly 25 MW to the industry in Year-1 alone. The scaling up of the plant to 500MWp capacity over Year-2 will give us another 250 MW in addition to the existing 100MW. With the announcement now expected by mid-March, that places the first installations in December 2007. Translated to systems, this gives us an estimated maximum of 5000 installs Year-1, 70,000 installs Year-2.
The numbers may not "match up", as you put it, because there are other parts to the equation that either have not yet been described, or may never be, because they represent proprietary solutions that reduce our costs well beyond the industry's current experience. |
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49 of 381 |
February 13, 2007
Manufacturing Plant
Q: Where is the PV manufacturing plant and where is the inverter manufacturing plant? Ground must be broken by now. How about some photos of construction? A 500MW plant (with only 100MW built out in the first year) is not a small place. It's also not cheap. My best guess is about $200MM for phase one. Of course, we have another numbers problem here. If the plant is only built out to 100MW, and you sell 100,000 systems at 2kW each (would you sell smaller, on average?) then that requires 200MW of capacity. It just seems like Citizenre's statements throw out big numbers, but the big numbers do not match each other. That means that the numbers are just being made up, that there is no plan. Please indicate what the real installation goals and manufacturing capacities will be for year one and two. |
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February 13, 2007
Q: I assume product is at UL for testing (both PV modules and inverters). If not, CitizenRe cannot make the dates they are promising to their customers of September installs, since not only does the equipment need to pass UL, but it also needs to the be manufactured in volume. Please provide proof that equipment is at UL for testing, and an estimate of certification date (I realize that's hard with UL, but everyone has a schedule).
A: UL's own estimate for passing the full set of 1547.1 tests is 3 calendar months. The module plant start-up will be approximately 12 months, so we will have enough time for field testing. |
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February 13, 2007
AC Modules
Q: We've never had a good, inexpensive, reliable AC module (I.E. micro inverter). Why now? What's new and different and makes this unit good? How many hours of field testing has it gone through? Tough environment on the back of a module. How many hours has it been on the roof? A: Please check the definition of "AC Module" in the NEC. (I helped to write it). I agree that putting an inverter on the back of a module is a bad idea - we don't plan to do that. We are still in the development stage for this part of the system, but do have prototypes running. We have one of the most experienced inverter design groups in the country - we can make this work. Nevertheless, the prototype may have unanticipated problems in manufacturing, in getting into commercial scale production, particularly at the volumes we anticipate needing. Thus, we have created a contingency plan for the bulk-purchase of inverters if we see production delays. |
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February 13, 2007
A: Yes we are a member of SEIA - and ASES, SEPA, IREC, and ACORE. Yes, we are working to get legislation passed that helps the solar industry - once again, a large customer base will be the most powerful tool that the industry has ever had for policy change. We will devote a considerable part of our profits to supporting SEIA and the other organizations in their legislative efforts.
We are indeed following the work of many who came before us - going back to Bill Yerkes and Arco Solar, the foundation build by JPL, Sandia and SERI (now NREL) and the contributions of all the manufacturers and installers who have brought us to where we are now. Most of our senior management has been in the solar business for more than 20 years. |
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February 13, 2007
A: We understand the solar-grade silicon market thoroughly. We also understand that secure long-term contracts cost $60 to $90/kg now, and that the spot market price is near $200. We have made arrangements for supply stability at the SG-Si level as well as for the other raw materials that are necessary in the production of PV modules. And although the cost savings are not tremendous - based on our bulk purchase, they are lower than what the average plant in the industry now pays. This is simply economy-of-scale.
SEIA and Legislation Q: Is Citizenre a member of SEIA? Are you contributing money toward the hiring of very expensive lobbyists? Are you working to get legislation passed that helps the solar industry? Or are you riding on the work and money of others? |
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February 13, 2007
Financial Model & Solar-Silicon Cost
Q: I've seen various people's attempts to figure out Citizenre's financial model. No one has made it work. Even if we get the proposed federal tax credit, the numbers do not work at any reasonable cost for equipment, sales and G&A. The only way it works is if Citizenre is somehow able to lose on each sale! Not a great business model, but could help to get solar out there faster. PV costs money. Without long term silicon contracts (and those cost additional huge money) then Citizenre will be paying well over $60/kg of silicon. This puts a floor price on your modules. You're not buying glass and aluminum any cheaper than anyone else. So your product cannot be that much cheaper. Yes, you can cut out the middleman and slash the installation budget (perhaps), but you cannot get to half price out of the box, or even in a few years. Where are you getting silicon? Do you have signed and sealed non-cancellable long term contracts for 200 to 500 MW? |
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February 13, 2007
Beyond the necessity for reasonable net-metering laws or a blanket national net-metering law, we will help advocate for 1) meaningful renewable portfolio standards; 2) carbon and other green-house gas taxes; 3) the push for a distributed portfolio standard to capture the economic and national security benefits that the distributed nature of PV provides; and 4) the continuation of renewable energy subsidy programs that place more emphasis on production.
Financing Q: Where's the money? No one invests $650MM without some PR, an announcement, etc. And no one receives $650MM without an announcement, PR, etc. This is the most stealth money I've ever not heard of. Understand that $650MM is a very significant percentage of all the money invested in solar to-date. Who are the investors? A: The investors are large, well-known financial institutions. We will announce their identity and the location of our first manufacturing plant shortly. |
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February 13, 2007
Part 6
State Incentives Q: And Citizenre has said that incentives just get in the way. That's a good thing, because no state incentive program can put up with this run rate. Outside of CA no one has anything even close, and at this rate Citizenre would deplete the CSI in a couple of years. Ok if it gets the solar out there, but not if it then falls on it's face. A: The main incentive that we need is a consistent net-metering law. We will work with the States and new Democratic congress to move towards a National net-metering law. One of the things provided by our large dedicated customer-base is a significant lobbying base. We expect that we be able to change state and federal policy using this power. |
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February 13, 2007
Part 6
The approach that you should be taking is one that relies on sensible governmental support and more weight towards supply-chain stability, standardization, and operational efficiencies. You may also be overlooking the fact that we have the ability to carry manufacturer's equity in these financial structures. The power of Citizenre's innovative business and financial model has already convinced major investment players of the tremendous opportunity ahead. The first round of investment will be announced shortly along with the plant location; subsequent rounds will underwrite each year's residential installations. |
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February 13, 2007
Continuing to ramp-up and bring additional phases online will increase our capacity over the subsequent 15 months. Ultimately, we will have the ability to deliver to about 100,000 homes each year.
Once we prove the feasibility of the first plant, we will duplicate the design and bring more capacity online. You and others have asked: how is this financed? We have commitments to finance construction of the plant. But as you correctly stated, construction financing does not finance the "Synthetic Power Producer" structure that supports the installation of systems on residential homes. Your estimation of $2 billion per annum is a little high, which is to be expected if you base your numbers on the way that the PV industry does business now. |
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February 13, 2007
Part 4
A: From this question, it appears that you are blurring the lines between the production facility's ultimate nameplate capacity and the actual output of the facility during the scale-up of production capabilities. Roughly nine months after we break ground, Citizenre plans to produce 100MW of PV. There are incentives built in to our construction contracts to motivate an earlier start date - as early as month-6 - and conversely, there are penalties for taking longer. It will take approximate 15 more months to bring the plant online fully. Under this phased approach, we expect that it will take 2 years to fully complete our first facility. Nevertheless, the capacity we expect 9 months after ground breaking will at minimum produce enough PV for 20,000 systems per year. The target of 20,000 systems/year is based on our assessment of the market which assumes an average system size of 4.5 kWp. |
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February 13, 2007
Part 3
What makes us different is that we are not owned by a multi-national oil or electric company, and so have a different reason for being in business - we want to see solar succeed. Now the answers to your questions: Sales Targets Q: Goal of 100,000 sales in first year. Let's call it an average $20,000 per sale. That's $2 Billion of cost incurred. Various interviews have indicated that Citizenre has / is getting / will get (which is it?) $650MM of investment. How does that buy $2BB of installs, year one? So after year one, we get to year two. Year two has another $2BB of equipment installed. More capital required. Debt markets? Sure, just need to convince them. They will loan against a program like this in maybe 5 years. Right now, you might get 3 - 5 year loans for part of it, but not all of it, and not for the terms needed. I'm actually in the capital markets, although nowhere near this level, and this stuff does not fall from the trees. |
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February 13, 2007
Part 2
The initial marketing program, as stated on the web site, is a pilot. It is showing us what can be done, and in some cases, what not to do. Viral marketing is very powerful, but can suffer from exaggerated claims as the message passes from one person to another. We are moving quickly to correct misconceptions. We believe that, rather than being a threat to the solar industry, Citizenre will greatly accelerate its growth. The ideas behind the business plan come in part from work done by NREL, REPP, and the many NGOs and Environmental Organizations who have sought to commercialize PV effectively. If we do not succeed in our full plan, others will follow our path. At some point, someone will succeed with this plan. |
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February 13, 2007
Here are our answers to the concerns of Mr. Wolfe: Part 1
Response to Re-Markets List on Topica.com Rob Wills et al, Feb 11, 2007 Dear Jeff Wolfe, and fellow Solar Industry members: Greetings from Citizenre. We hear your concerns about our business plan. We are responding to your questions and modifying our plans to address the issues that you raise. At this point, Citizenre is a startup company. We are still putting our management team together. We still have a lot to do. We have not broken ground yet on our PV plant, but plan to do so soon. Our goal is to revolutionize the PV industry with: - Successful end-user marketing - Financing of end-user systems - Vertically-integrated product line (i.e., integrated inverters) - Innovative installation methods - High volume PV manufacturing |
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February 13, 2007
Under the original article it states Citizenre CEO David Gregg will be interviewed in this Thursday's episode of Inside Renewable Energy.
I invite Mr. Gregg to skip regurgitating yet another fluffy public relations piece this time around and answer the hard questions put-forth here & elsewhere instead. I like others smell a rat on this one so how about it Mr. Gregg, how about making it a point to answer every question posed here clearly & concisely? We all know you are reading this, its time to step up to the plate with some real answers! |
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February 13, 2007
This seems to be an incredibly positive company,all of the people who are negative about Citizenre seem to be in the solar industry currently. They do pack a punch that 99% of of the solar industry can't block!
I guess this will be like when cell phones came out and the telephone companies felt so intimidated that they started bashing cell phones. What ever happened to, "cell phones cause brain tumors". I am just having a hard time seeing a scam here. I am serious about the Ed Begley ordeal by the way Geoff. I love his show on HGTV. I checked out his website and he is promoting them on HIS tv show website. I had no clue they have a relationship with greenpeace. Makes sense to me. Ivan |
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February 13, 2007
Thanks Especially to Jeffery Wolfe and Dr. Richard George for helping to shed light onto this problem.
I am a professional solar system designer/installer entering my fourth year in the industry. I make a modest living helping consumers understand solar electricity and deciding if it is right for them. From the first time I saw a CitizenRe SPAM posting on CraigsList, I knew there was something wrong with their offering. Now we are beginning to see why. Properly designed and installed solar systems can delivery significant and meaningful financial and environmental benefits to their owners over the long term. It takes diligence and hard work on the part of the conscientious solar professional to achieve this. The ease and simplicity of the CitizenRe offering is alluring, but I think the reality is leading to a grim disappointment for those who buy it. |
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February 13, 2007
The scam is that Citizenre is an attempt on the cheap for several relatively unknown individuals with little industry experience to test market a solar business model to see if they can get enough customers to convince investors to provide the capital. The scam is primarily against the 5600+ Citizenre "ecopreneurs" but it also harms a wide variety of industry players, particularly distributors and installers, and discourages real customers from buying PV. It is a case for law enforcement and regulators.
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February 13, 2007
Thank you Jeff Wolfe from Gro Solar for writing this opinion. I agree that this RE thing could be very bad for for the industry. When potential PV consumers start asking solar consultants about it during a presentation, then that is bad right now. CitizenRE should stop "selling" contracts and recruiting salespeople until all their promises are met. Let's see 5000 installs with no comsumer investments, let's see the largest pv plant on earth cranking out modules, then let's talk business. Otherwise this may be a case for the attorney general.
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February 13, 2007
I am an investor in RE and I have been following the CR developments and debate for quite a while. My first reaction was hey this is very cool but after taking a closer look and knowing a little bit about PV I have become more and more skeptical of their claims and their sales model. As noted above by quite a few people when it comes to answering real questions about technology or process there is just a lot of optimistic rhetoric and not much more. Lots of feel good cheering will not make for a multibillion dollar company no matter what. What I can't really figure out is where the scam is, because there sure is one here. If this is the unilateral wet dream of a couple of eager people with little back-up then we as an industry of alternative energy might be in big trouble by the fallout to come.
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February 13, 2007
Ivan - I can't exactly tell without listening to the tone of your voice if you are being sarcastic or serious. I think that the purported participation of the Sierra Club, NRDC and Greenpeace has done a lot to give credence and legitimacy to Citizen RE. I fully expect that they will be re-examining that relationship (if it is real at all) and distancing themselves in the near future. I think that this move will probably help the many people involved (or considering involvement) in this scheme reconsider.
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February 13, 2007
I just saw that they have Ed Begley Jr. representing them! It must be real if they have celebrities putting thier reputation on the line to promote them. Ed happens to be a HUGE influence on most environmental celebs. If he's in, I'm in!
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February 13, 2007
(Part 3)
I hope this is only a temporary disruption. I hope that the good hearted and well intentioned people that have been duped and exploited get the justice they deserve. I hope (and expect) that true, sustainable progress toward a renewable energy future continues on, accelerated by actual innovations, hard work and policy changes. Thank you Jeff Wolfe (and others) for addressing this important issue. |
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February 13, 2007
(Part 2)
There is a big difference between a "disruptive technology" and a simple "disruption". I fully expect that a Federal Trade Commission or FBI investigation will shut down this temporary disruption, allowing us to continue the important work of deploying solar based on viable technology and sound business models. It is indeed very easy to "give away" solar, and the speed at which this "viral marketing" has spread is alarming. Would it have spread as quickly based on realistic costs and constraints? I don't think so. Some ask "where is the harm in hope"? I think a great harm is done if we distract and confuse solar consumers that are ready to deploy solar. It is impossible for a legit business to compete with "vapor-solar". The doubt engendered by the claims of Citizen RE have and will have an impact on the industry. Continued... |
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February 13, 2007
As an active and experienced solar installer, I would like to add my contribution to this discussion. Ihave been approached by a variety of Citizen RE ecopreneures, as well as by others interested in my opinion on whether or not they should get involved in this venture. After researching the subject I have concluded that it is indeed "too good to be true", and I have decided not to become involved (and recommend that others be cautious as well).
I am saddened that many fine and good-hearted people are being exploited for the economic gain of a few. I am also very concerned that, as this house of cards inevitably falls, it will damage the important progress the "real" solar industry is making and must make as we seek to address global warming and energy issues. Continued.... |
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February 13, 2007
One piece of the CR plan we don't know much about is the franchisee situation. Has anyone out there seen the franchise circular, been solicited by CR to be a franchisee or signed up? It would be interesting to know the terms and conditions.
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February 13, 2007
I was a bit confused by the postings by "Jeff Wolf" untill I realized the different spelling than (Jeff Wolfe) the author of the original article.
This is a very contentious issue and obviously it is bringing out some very heated and defensive (and quite possibly misleading)comments from readers. Please keep that in mind as you read through the growing comment list. |
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February 13, 2007
My bad! You are Jeff Wolf and the author of the article we are commenting on is Jeff Wolfe. Interesting similarity...
Todd |
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February 13, 2007
What makes you credible Todd?
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February 13, 2007
What is so rude about asking questions?
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February 13, 2007
Who are you to call me bogus? This is my real name!
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February 13, 2007
"Jeff Wolf"... why are you posting your rude and disrespectful comments using a bogus name? This does not lend a great deal of credibility to what you have to say.
Todd |
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February 13, 2007
Seems to me you've probably invested more time than you should have.The only return you are getting here is an honest one. Probably doesn't suit your type.
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February 13, 2007
Thanks for catching my error "Jeff Wolf".
The correction is pasted below: Here are the numbers. As mentioned above, a typical wasteful good amerikun home needs a 7 kW system. We are looking at around $28,000.00 for the "citizen BS" 7 kW system. This yields 12,600 kWh in yearly energy savings. Now, lets take that $28K and invest it in $1.00 compact fluorescent light bulbs. 28,000 CF lamps, saving (23 watt versus 100 watt) 77 watts each, nets 2156 kWh in daily savings or 776,160 kWh in yearly savings. What would you rather "citizen BS" invest (your often publicly subsidized) $28,000.00 in... 12,600 kWh of yearly net energy gain or 776,160 kWh of yearly net energy gain?? Todd |
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February 13, 2007
Really? What have you lost?
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February 13, 2007
"Todd are you an Investor with millions? Have you ever invested other than your two cents?"
With your model the more you invest, the more you lose. Todd |
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February 13, 2007
By the way I just signed up two installers in the northwest this morning.
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February 13, 2007
Todd are you getting your numbers out af a comic book?
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February 13, 2007
part 2
The real point is when we are dealing with the survivability of our species, we need to mitigate our impact in the most expedient way possible and that means conservation and efficiency first, SDHW second, solar electric last. Getting the greatest energy return on resources invested is the only way to approach what we are facing here. Here are the numbers. As mentioned above, a typical wasteful good amerikun home needs a 7 kW system. We are looking at around $28,000.00 for the "citizen BS" 7 kW system. This yields 12,600 kWh in yearly energy savings. Now, lets take that $28K and invest it in $1.00 compact fluorescent light bulbs. 28,000 CF lamps, saving (23 watt versus 100 watt) 77 watts each, nets 2156 kWh in daily savings or 1,663,200 kWh in yearly savings. What would you rather "citizen BS" invest (your often publicly subsidized) $28,000.00 in... 12,600 kWh of yearly net energy gain or 776,160 kWh of yearly net energy gain?? Todd |
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February 13, 2007
Todd are you an Investor with millions? Have you ever invested other than your two cents?
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February 13, 2007
Thank you George for your fair statement.
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February 13, 2007
Here are some real world numbers:
A typical "good amerikun's" waste oriented home, consumes 35 kWh a day. A solar electric array will likely see a yearly average of 5 hours of sun of day. This means we need at least a 7 kW system to supply that much power. A typical 7 kW system, without publicly financed buy downs or other incentives would cost ~$60,000.00. It will produce (7 kW X 5 hours of sun a day X 30 days per month X 12 months per year) 12,600 kWh in yearly energy production. At 10¢ per kWh that is $1,260.00 per year in equivalent grid power costs. $60,000.00 ÷ $1,260.00 is a payback of 47.6 years. $4.00 per watt (or $28,000.00 for the 7 kW system mentioned above) is the price "citizen BS" claims to be able to install solar electric for. This is a short term, avoided utility cost payback of 22 years! Why would the investors (they claim to have onboard) invest in a 22 year return on their money? And some say this is not a scam? Todd |
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February 13, 2007
Jeffrey you talked to ONE rep in Wisonsin and came up with all that! WOW! By the way, its not the "Industry" we are worried about seems you guys already have it figured out. The Industry hasn't done a great job getting the message out about solar benefits or there would more than a total of 30,000 installation in 30 years! Seems to me Citizenre is getting better everyday remember this is a "start up" I believe they will succeed. They already have 6000+ customers almost 1/3 of what the "Industry" has done in 30. Whats wrong with making a buck doing it? I don't what country you live in but everyone I know has bills and families to take care of - are you saying that people currently in the "Industry" aren't making money?
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February 13, 2007
The key factor in the CR business model is whether or not they can get the cost of installed residential PV below that of utility power. (No I haven't run the numbers.) If their model enables this, then it may work. If they can't deliver radically lower cost, they will fail. This crossover point is what everyone in the PV industry is dreaming of. But what many haven't considered is that it may take a disruptive business model to deliver this low cost. In other words, when competitive PV power arrives, many of you might not like it. Think early 80's fragmented, white box, PC industry vs. Dell computer 10 years later.
Even if the model works on paper, they still have to execute it. The barriers to executing what we can see of the model appear to be huge, particularly in the timeline stated. If CR is legit, it is audaciously bold. Don't expect a smooth road. Don't see where the fraud is. Have a masters in business, PV installation & sales experience, signed up as a CR associate. |
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February 13, 2007
By the way Richard George nice 61 page article! Where'd that get you? have you made alot of friends with that? Do you feel good about yourself? Did you come up with this before or after the 200+ sales you got with CITIZENRE?
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February 13, 2007
If Citizenre is merely going to fizzle out, why bother? Why invest your time needed for the "real" PV people to come up with a better way to bring clean energy to the masses and make it viable for everyone to benefit?
Seriously folks, where is the scam here? Have they asked for any money upfront from ANYONE? If people do not want to be a part of this they don't have to be. Geeeez it really seems like alot time and energy to waste on a company going nowhere. I would think that some of you with Master and PHD degrees would be spending there time more wisely, or is wisdom something that isn't taught but learned. Watch out PV industry! Here comes Citizenre! I hope they kick ASS! |
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February 13, 2007
It is becoming clearer and clearer that CitizenRE is at best an ill-conceived plan with little chance of success. Talking to a rep from CitizenRE here in Wisconsin, it is clear that many of the associates have little interest or understanding in the Solar PV industry, much less economics of installation and service, and are simply looking to make a buck in a MLM scheme. A most unfortunate business proposition.
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February 13, 2007
Seems like the education is very important to the company. I did check out the site to join as a "Ecopreneur" and they don't want any money to join, unlike 99.99% MLM companies out there. I am trying to figure out where this "scam" is.
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February 13, 2007
In a few years when you are driving down the road seeing Solar on one in every four homes... would that not make you feel you have helped make a difference? I see that in the future and am very proud to have been a pioneer in bringing solar to all! I am no solar technician nor will ever will be more than likely but do know a good thing when I see it. We are going to make a difference... skeptics or no skeptics... watch us... just watch... maybe even think about joining on our mission.
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February 13, 2007
Sorry I missed your post earlier Ivan. If you saw what I saw... I saw great wisdom in the eyes of such a young fella' (25) the kind you don't usually see in someone that young... it was an inspiration... I love Allen like the younger Brother I never had... we are both learning a lot from each other and we have a long raod ahead of us. I literally spend 15+ hours 7-days a week working on this... most of it is training so I can pass the tests and keep representing... they had a lot of renegades come in early and have started making it mandatory for folks to train and test before representing. The renegades will also have to take the new tests or will not be able to sign any associates or customers up until they meet the requirements.
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February 13, 2007
Fair enough, I will watch and see what happens. It seems that if you have met these people, and can tell they mean what they say... I am interested to see what the outcome is. I have checked out thier website and it makes sense. I have been in the solar and wind industry for 22 years and have never seen an idea as incredible as this one. It would take the amount of funding they mention to pull this off....
Ivan |
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February 13, 2007
Yes, I have met the National Sales Director Sam Costudio and Allen Priest... we met and had an awesome dinner we communicate daily if you met these young men you would know by looking in their eyes they are honest hard working men. maybe someday you will be blessed with meeting them too! It was a milestone in my life!
There is definetly a problem with pollution and if we hit our goal of having solar on 25% of US homes by the year 2025 we will have done a tremendous thing for our environment and I am happy to ba a part of it. If you think we should not be doing this or trying to rock the boat... please just stand back and watch us... don't critique yet... just watch us. There was a set-back with start -up of building the plant because another state just came up with a great offer to look over... if this was a scam why would states be competing for us to build there? Be as skeptical as you want but please realize what we are trying to accomplish and do not slander in the process. |
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February 13, 2007
These young men have bought me back to life and given me a good reason to be here. I can't believe that folks say there is some kind of "scam" I have paid not one penny in 4+ months and have received mass training on Global warming and Peak Oil... I had never even heard of Peak Oil before joining this group! Who has been scammed... you mean down the road when we collect a $500 deposit and leave the folks with a solar array... yea... we ripped them off Man! Left a $40K systemon their house and got a whole $500 from the suckers. I am really puzzled why the Gov't has not let the real truth out on how bad things really are! Why do folks try to talk us down when we are trying to make a major difference in how easily renewable energy will be accepted. watch us and wish us luck... don't try to sink us before we even get the hull wet!
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February 13, 2007
Yes Frank, but have you even met any of these people?
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February 13, 2007
But I am not one of them. I am patient and know this is going to take time as all good things to come do... like hopefully slowing down Global Warming and trying to find more allies to get the job done. I ahve contacted every solar outfit in the Yellow Pages around here and ALL of them look at us as allies in the war on pollution and most are applying for Franchises saying its an awesome idea... about time someone made it simple to join the solution. I have felt worthless for the last 16-years just existing and now I feel like a giant with a major weapon against pollution.
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February 13, 2007
I had thought about getting a loan for solar but when I found the price... I knew that my disability payments would not allow me to join the renueable energy family. Then I heard about this young fella' and his friends and their mission to make solar easy for all homeowners that get decent sun to get. Their plan and ideas are awesome. This is definetly not a quick and easy task but I have seen mass progress and the leaders are the best that can be found. there are lotsa folks that feel everything must be disclosed immediatly or their life will not be the same. cont...
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February 13, 2007
Let me ask you a question Frank, have you ever physically met this Allen guy?
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February 13, 2007
Howdy,
I was introduced to Citizenre by Allen Priest back in mid-September 2006. My life has literally changed. I feel compelled to post here and hope I can clear the air a little and let you in on my experiences. I have been physically disabled since 1989. I am not in a wheelchair but my surgeries on my back went bad and I am stuck with constant syotic nerve pain. I logged worked at refinery shut-downs built homes and did a lot of mechanical work. |
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February 13, 2007
I totally have to agree with Allen on Madison's comment. Grow up and learn how to participate in a debate! There seems to be two sides to this story and of course one always says the other is wrong. But to go and try to insult someone like you have, is childish.
Ivan |
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February 13, 2007
Your comments really reflect the type of person you are Madison. I refuse to bring myself to level of integrity in which you display. I will make this my last post and wish all of you luck in your renewable energy ventures!
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February 13, 2007
Change is scary for some people Glenn. You say we are polluting this message board and we are simply setting the record straight. I find it quite interesting that this post comes the same day one of our former Independent reps get terminated. A former Rep who is going all over the web and posing as a Consultant for our Corporation and posting blasphemy regarding Citizenre. A rep that went out and spent a ton of money on advertising at his own will hoping to ride the tail of a Press Release that was pushed back. This story comes out just as easy as this one:http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=46770
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February 13, 2007
Comments about silicon: Solar Silicon is not an issue to Citizenre, as we have arranged for a technology license from NREL to manufacture our own low-cost (low-energy requirement) solar-grade silicon.
The primary concern of the PV industry is control of the feedstock. We have made arrangements to supply our own SG-Si, which makes our primary material MG-Si - material that is highly abundant and guaranteed by one of our industry partners. We are also aggressively pursuing additional means of SG-Si refinement, with an eye towards moving to carbon as the base material. Nevertheless, we are confident that what we have arranged for will supply us over the next 5 to 10 years of growth - meaning guaranteed SG-Si for all factories over the duration of their expected lifetimes (roughly 10 years) that are built in the next five to ten years. |
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February 13, 2007
Message to Tony and Allen -
Stop polluting the comment section of this article with your continuous and mindless drum-beating for Citizenre:. Face the reality that this fraudulent and deceptive internet scam has been exposed, and accept that your days of extracting "deposits" out of hopeful solar system purchasers are over. You are doing real and tangible damage to an industry whose ostensible mission is to make the world a better place through the mass implementation of renewable energy systems. Designing your business model to defraud well-meaning clean energy system buyers is somewhat akin to stealing from charities or the unsuspecting elderly. You fail utterly to respond to ANY of the very relevant points mentioned in Jeff Wolfe's article. I challenge you to abandon your tired Citizenre: talking points that we've all grown weary of seeing around the nets, like so much grafitti on bathroom walls, and respond as though you've worked a day in the solar industry. |
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February 13, 2007
John as a professional business man, what do you seek to gain with this because I will tell you with the utmost confidence that this will get you absolutely nowhere. If you are a CEO of another solar company I can definitely understand your nervousness because we impose a huge threat on your market, but why go and even TRY to slander someone. We have not gone out and said that what you are doing is wrong, or told people your company is a bad company! We simply have found a much better way to bring PV to the market.
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February 13, 2007
See what I mean? We are making people nervous so they slander us!
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February 13, 2007
Disclosure:
Allen Priest "Independent ECOpreneur IDS #IDS: 3000001932 Tony Cecala "Independent ECOpreneur IDS: #3000004316 Mr. Wills inverter work is well known in the solar energy industry. Many of my industry colleagues have had to remove and replace units that Mr. Wills designed, due to early failures. Replacement has largely been at the individual company's expense, since my understanding is that Mr. Wills' last company went bankrupt, apparently leaving warranty obligations unfunded. My company, fortunately, had few of these units installed. |
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February 14, 2007
In 1989 AT+T came out with a wireless alarm system. The average cost to install 3500.00
1992 The 'free' alarm system is introduced. The current owners at that time said no way you can give away a 2-4000 alarm system. 1994 the AT+T system is out of business , no more parts made for this system. Thousands of dealers out of business who failed to adapt. The 'free' alarm industry it had early problems but has adjusted out nice. Things change |
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February 14, 2007
Hello Jim;
I live in Yorkville Il. which is 50 miles SW of you. I have signed up my house and a lot of others in my area.If You or anyone is interested in this great "green" solution, please email me and I will calll you back and try to answer all your questions. I am not a salesperson -but an electrical engineer with 28 years experience. I will not hype up this product, but give you an honest assessment. There is no risk in signing up and the waiting line for this rental product is increasing! Robert Veach 630-553-8697 r.veach@comcast.net jointhesolution.com/yorkville |
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February 14, 2007
martin luther king had a dream it came true, lets hope for all of our sakes that this can come true as well!
please tell me wher I can get more info on affordable solar power system that can handle 1000-1200 kw per month i live in the midwest chicago area JIm |
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February 14, 2007
"Don't believe what you wish were true, and don't give them your time or money."
"THEY" haven't ASKED me or any one else I know for my money or time. A lot of people posting here have spent a lot of time ranting about CR and accusing it of fraud. Bizarre that people are so fearful and angry about this plan and model. Why don't you just sit back and see what happens? Are you afraid that it might succeed?? Strange indeed. |
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February 14, 2007
Just curious, I did a Google search for the address
they list, 501 Silverside Rd, Wilmington, DE and find dozens of hits for small businesses that quarter there (they are suite 69), architects, accountants, occupational therapists, as well as the "King Tut Shop". Nothing against small businesses. I have one myself, operating out of my home, but I do not claim to be a nationwide organization, building a world-class fab for PV cells. Seems likely that they're not what they pretend to be. |
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February 14, 2007
Delighted to see this exposed in such detail. Recognized their websites as a scam after about 10 minutes of inspection last fall.
I am so sorry that "ecopreneurs" and would-be customers have been taken in by this scam. You don't have to know anything about solar to recognize the bad signs: (1) talking about OPM on their many websites in hopes that you'll be confused in to thinking they have millions, too (2) the pyramid structure of their independent sellers (3) the classic internet tactics in these comments: "Jeff Wolf" arguing with the author, Jeff Wolfe; flooding the comments with pro-company rants, and a heart-warming they changed my life good-ol-boy story. Don't believe what you wish were true, and don't give them your time or money. |
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February 14, 2007
As a mechanical engineer, I've been involved advising clients on and off about aernative energy going all the way back to the mid 70's. Solar hot water, wind, small hydro electric, you name it. This industry attracts snake oil like a magnet. All with incredible business plans, great visions of cost efficiencies through mass-marketing, vertically integrated production, etc.
The bottom line is, this reeks of snake oil. And frankly, the more polished the presentation by the CEO's in the blog,etc, the more it reeks. I guess I've just seen too much to be mollified by the words. Plants actually rolling out product instead of Internet-era vaporware, and products and installations holding up after several years (unlike the solar hot water and wind fiascos of yester-years)speak volumes. Prove this old engineer wrong, CitizenRE. Just prove it. It's time to walk the walk. |
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February 14, 2007
As the famous entertainer said, "never give a sucker an even break." In some countries, efforts are made to protect the citizenry from fraudulent business practices. Why has the government in the U.S. not been contacted about this scheme, and asked to investigate and intervene?
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February 14, 2007
As a recent sign up for the "ecopreneur" program with Citizenre, the more questions I asked, the more it sounded like someone with a good idea they were trying to develop and then sell to investors, making a fortune for themselves and leaving 'ecopreneurs' and hopeful homeowners holding the bag.
Actually I have had no luck determining what the actual truth is in regard to their claims. One thing is for sure - there is no factory producing streamlined solar systems. As someone who is very concerned about the environment and excited about the idea of finding a way to make solar power affordable for most homeowners, I must say I am becoming less inclined to put my reputation on the line for Citizenre's pipe dream. |
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February 14, 2007
As I understand Citizenre's system, you sign up and get a PV system that will produce all of your energy needs. A big promies. I currently have a 5kw system, but I still have to pay overages at the end of the year to the utility company -- and I'm far from an electricity hog. A Citizenre rep told me they will only build a system if takes care of all your electric needs. That means a customer's past use becomes the benchmark. Use more electricity than you did last year and Citizenre has to come out and enlarge your system --costly to say the least -- or they have to cancel you as a customer, or you're paying two electric bills. Most solar customers I know don't have systems large enough to cover 100% of their energy needs or found it too cost to put in a 8 or 10kw system. Citizenre shouldn't make promises they won't be able to keep.
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February 14, 2007
If it sounds to good to be true. Then it to good to be true.
This is all taking place when their is a lot of expansion going on in the solar industry. A sharp drop in demand would cause companies to stop expansion projects. If this drages on long enoph state and federial incentives could laps. This would also cause a sharp drop in customers. Is this the dangling carrot that is snatched away at the last minut? Seeing is believing. When I see new system working on peoples homes is when i will start to believe. |
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February 14, 2007
Here is a breakdown on the price for a 2KW gridtie from me in the SF Bay Area:
Contract Price: $18K Rebate: $4K Tax Credit: $2K Net Price To Customer: $12K My Cost For Modules: $10K My Cost For Inverter: $1.7K My Cost For Other Equipment: $1.2K Remaining To Cover Labor and Overhead: $5.1k Labor: Complete Site Specific Documentation and Permit Package: 5 Hrs Obtain Building Permit and Inspections: 4 Hrs Order and Obtain Material: 3 Hrs Build Mechanically Flashed Mounting Rack: 16 Hrs Run Conduit and Install Inverter: 16 Hrs Mount Modules and Complete Installation: 8 Hrs Total 50 Hrs Office Rental Office Equipment Truck Tools Insurance Licenses Bookkeeping I run with about a 15% Gross Margin or $2.5K for the whole job. |
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February 14, 2007
Tom:
You said IF CitizenRe can do this, than Duke can. I do not think that CitizenRe can based on their lack of secured funding, lack of credible management, lack of a site plan, or secured product. If they where a real company, they could secure existing product. The should not make claims based on their dreams and represent them as fact. This is called FRAUD. |
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February 14, 2007
This is not a defense of CitizenRE. In North Carolina, a commercial entity with adequate federal and state tax liabilities can install solar PV at $10,000/kW with a 25-year levelized cost of electricity of about $0.057/kWh when all tax incentives are factored in. My residential electric bill from Duke Energy shows my cost is $0.085/kWh. In addition to my monthly payment under a CitizenRE contract, they can aggregate the electric energy produced by their systems and sell RECs for additional revenue. So with total revenues almost double the levelized costs, this could be a good deal for CitizenRE and customers alike.
Of course, if a startup like CitizenRE can do this, so can Duke Energy and at lower equipment costs. Would folks feel more comfortable with this business model if our investor-owned utilities adopted it? |
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February 14, 2007
HERE IS A REAL ANWSER:
" A PV grid-tied system is as easy as installing a kitchen range" -A prominent Colorado PV installer Would you pay anyone $14,000 for one day of work? A doctor maybe. A 2KW gridtie system should cost around $500 for two workers, one day. Most people are lucky to make $100 a day....... |
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February 14, 2007
There's no doubt the model of installing modules on people's homes and buildings, combined with financing that makes it a no-up-front cost deal, is a good model. And indeed there are reputable companies working on that in earnest. Citizenre is not one of them, unfortunately.
As for MLM being a solid model, well, Amway, Mary Kay et al do not sell high-tech products that require a lot of training to sell and especially deliver. It is decidedly NOT a good model for solar, certainly not at this stage of the game. |
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February 14, 2007
However, what is interesting is that by 2009, there is going to be abundant Poly (~90000 tons by my own estimate from Public announcements and annual reports) to meet at least 10GW of global demand. So hopefully, Poly price will drop below $30-$40/kg by then.
CitizenRe model is very appealing and conceptually possible. It will be late in delivering no doubt, but lets wait and see. In the past, I have exchanged emails with Richard George and David Gregg both and I am not biased either way since I do not have a vested interest in either party's views. I will give CR benefit of the doubt and wait for the public annoucement just like Rob says. Good luck. |
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February 14, 2007
Christina,
Such a simple calculation for Si cost going into PV does not give you the real answer. Polysilicon is indeed in great demand. About 35000 metric tons are produced today and 60% of that ends up for IC. Demand for Solar (accelerated in recent years due to German and Japanese feed-in laws) has exceeded the remaining available supply for PolySi to produce Solar cells. Producing wafers and then cells out of raw Si is a very energy and capital intensive process and thats where the real cost lies. Most Poly makers tell me that they are sold out of Si till 2007-2008. The rest are squeezing the cell makers who pass on the cost to the consumer (if they can afford long term contracts and down payments in the first place). And some have just gone belly up. |
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February 14, 2007
page 2.
Some other items from the CitizenRE Forward Rental Agreement (FRA), would be 1) encouraging 1-year or 5-year contracts instead of 25-year contracts. 2) over-valuing the system component replacement costs. (System component replacement costs are covered by the renter.) 3) good investing of the $500 deposit vs. the 1-year T-bill, and coming up with a lot of reasons to keep the deposit. If this works, and I hope it does, distributed energy will be easy. If it doesn't, I hope the industry isn't delayed another 30 years. |
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February 14, 2007
As an owner of a PV system, I read the initial announcement of CitizenRE with interest. I can easily prove that solar is a good investment over the life of the panels.
I figured that if CitizenRE could make the business case, I should be able to also. But I have been unable to find any PV supplier that can meet the price requirements to make each install "self-supporting" on power production alone. Even with the 30% tax credits and $3/watt rebates would the model work using current PV supplies. The cash-flow isn't good enough. If CitizenRE is able to produce panels below $2/watt then the model could work. |
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February 14, 2007
I personally feel that this model could work (not the MLM part). I don't know if this company will work but I think the model will.
I think we'll see that they're costs are higher than expected and revenues are lower than expected. Then someone else will come in and charge a higher per kwh fee and some monthly/yearly maintenance fee and it'll work. I like the idea. Only time will tell if this company will succeed. |
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February 14, 2007
I find it interesting that so many people are against the company. Previous startup reviews are mixed, Guttenburg was late, but was the first printer with movable letters. Tesla built the AC generator that surpassed DC generators. Tucker was late, but was very innovative and eventally was bankrupt by the very people that loved him. Nucor was highly successful and changed the steel industry.
The company is not very upfront with its day to day expectations, but given the hurdles, give them some breathing room. The technology is not so different, that it is impossible to do. A 6-inch silicone hotdog grower machine is less than 1 million new. How much used? Buy the ore and away you go. There is a ton of profit in controls. I recently saw a brandx 2000/4000w 110vac peak inverter for $150 from a national retail sales company. Not Trace, but ?? |
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February 14, 2007
Is it true there are only 30,000 residential solar power generating systems on homes in our country? That seems too low. Has such a miniscule demand created the industry threatening shortage of silicon that I hear so much about? Maybe this is all just a tempest in a teapot....it is all rather discouraging
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February 14, 2007
Most people cannot afford to invest in a solar system now, including myself. I don't need another loan payment. What seems too good to be true here from my point of view is that Citizenre has not asked me for a DIME. I've signed up and will see what happens. I hope it works. If it doesn't, I'm sure someone else will try this type of model again and get it to work. Those of you who manufacture and install residential systems are understandably concerned, but your accusations of this project being a huge scam sound self-serving and resentful. This company cannot get a dime of my money until they've produced something. I'm ok waiting to see what happens.
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February 14, 2007
well it all sounds real good here but what year september will they be installed.i no im looking into having pv or solar water installed but i sure dont plan on waiting a year or more to wait to have it installed and like most of us we would rather have it now then wait a year or more the idea will go over much better when you break ground then you can start promising that maybe in 2008 or 2009 in sept you can install
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February 14, 2007
Please judge us by our actions. If we wanted to create a "sleazy mlm model," we could have easily charged $495 to sell this revolutionary system. We didn't. It is free to sign up as a customer and it is free to sign up as an Ecopreneur. We are investing all of the money. Our Ecopreneurs are investing their time and talents, which are extremely valuable. We all know there are risks in business and the best intentions sometimes fail.
Many of you are much smarter that I am in the PV industry. My role with Citizenre is to build a culture of ethics and integrity and to drive sales. We will make mistakes, we will adjust, and we will move forward. Thanks Rob |
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February 14, 2007
There is now way to satisfy all of your concerns...no matter what we say or do. Look for our press releases. Those will answer many of your questions and concerns.
We all want the same thing. We just differ on the best path to get there. The solar industry is growing, but not close to its potential. In 30 years it is less than one half of one percent of the electricity production in the US. We have a new model. There is always resistance to change. The onus is on us to perform and prove our citics wrong. |
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February 14, 2007
Interesting notes above. I didn't have time to read them all but for my money it's definitely a "wait and see". Kinda reminds me of all that went on with a con man in Leavenworth, WA about 35 years ago. Lots of words, no substance. Fortunately I didn't invest in that. If this all comes to fruition, good for the company, if not, I won't have lost a dime.
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February 14, 2007
What is wrong with a company trying a DIFFERENT approach to a market that is miserably failing. I have 28 years professional engineeering experience ( please do not comment, solar kismet) and there were many times upper management held critical information from the engineering staff as well as the marketing staff about funding and timelines. Give this company a chance. Would all of you people have clubbed Bill Gates over the head when he was working out of his garage to perfect DOS? I am an associate of CitizeRe (as you probably guessed). Feel free to give me an email with questions about this company: r.veach@comcast.net
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February 14, 2007
Dr. George said the following above:
The scam is primarily against the 5600+ Citizenre "ecopreneurs" but it also harms a wide variety of industry players, particularly distributors and installers, and discourages real customers from buying PV. It is a case for law enforcement and regulators. Dr, where are the real customers and installers that you talk about. I look around my neihborhood and see no solar installations! The public has not embraced any solar (less than .5%). more below |
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February 14, 2007
The very fact that Rob Styler has to resort to fending off critisism from many top people in the idustry, here in this forum,tells me that the entire citizenre model is not a good one. Anyone with even a little insight could have predicted this firestorm and done a little preliminary work in bringing together the entire industry in a conserted effort. I have to also wholeheartedly agree with Todd Cory's critisism of placing high tech energy into essentially an energy sieve where it just goes to waste. PV in this case is simply a band aid for an arterial hemmorage. The patient is still going to die, they will just feel good that at least something is being done.
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February 14, 2007
The old saying is the ' proof is in the pudding' and that is what a lot of people will find out in the next 8-12 months. What will many of you say when the first Cititzenre system goes online? Will a lot of you here then say well they will never do a 100000 in one year? What if Citizenre doesn't go online, will this model be dead? Know this, whether its Citizenre or the next company, this model will be in effect with someone and there will be others who will jump on the bandwagon. Some of you have tried to slam that Citizenre is being sold through MLM. MLM is on e of the fastest and economincal ways to grow a business fast, especially in a absolute all user industry like solar. Amway was built by MLM, as well was Excel, Mary Kay, and quite a few of very successful companies. Most of the people who slam MLM'S usually got in too late with one or another company, or with a company that was not viable. If the naysayers are wrong, what will they be saying in 24 months?
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February 14, 2007
Energy Efficiency coupled with on-site generation is the solution. PV with a purpose, i.e., gridless PV/LED/Battery lighting, gasification (trash to cash), fuel cells, etc. and many other real solutions are so totally underfunded and unrecognized. Our energy policy is outdated, underfunded and only caters to oil. Each year, oil companies say there is only 50 years of oil left to dig-up. They have been saying this for many years now. The subsidies for oil and nuclear need to pass through to the real energy of our times. Soon, we will all drown literally due to climate change. The catastrophe for our kids is ever present in my mind.
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February 14, 2007
Christina, exactly. Just look at today's public PV companies; spwr, stp, ener, tsl, solf, jaso, eslr. The profits go into their pockets. The value to the consumer, zero, unless we own the stocks. Business sucks, our government sucks and we all suffer for this. Mandate PV now !!! Instead of weapons, protect the U.S. and divert our tax dollars into energy independence. CR, build-up the list and present the mandate petition to Mr. Bush.
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February 14, 2007
Cost of PV. Please check my math. Silicon on a PV panel is about 200 micrometers thick. 180 Watt Panel size: 16.09 Sq.Ft. Silicon Density: 2330Kg per Cubic Meter = 145.457lbs./Cu.Ft. Silicon cost: $80/Kg = $36.30/Cu.Ft. 200 micrometers = 0.00065618 Feet. Panel has 0.01056 Cu.Ft. of Silicon on it. Multiply by $36.30/Cu.Ft. = $0.38 worth of Silicon. That's 38 cents. The rest of the components are not expensive and neither is the energy cost, labor or capital recovery. Around here, we call it the "Silly Con"
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February 14, 2007
One more thing; school districts, public buildings and government buildings are a great start for PV installations, mandated by our government. That will stir the pot and create a mass awareness and environmental responsibility needed. How about that, Mr. Bush. This reality of environmental responsibility will go a long way. Show the world we do care rather than allowing big business to reap its ugly head in the PV industry. Get PV on the desert sands of Jordan to allow for fertile lands so the Palestinians can have hope. Allow for the third world to have PV for DC refrigerators to house vaccines, lighting and computers. The sun shines everywhere. Our country should lead in this campaign.
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February 14, 2007
I believe millions of people should sign up for PV. Then take the list and present it to Mr. Bush as a petition. Then, maybe CitizenRe will have a chance. Using Nano and Prism techologies, the silicon shortage will be a moot point.
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February 14, 2007
cont.
As with all such startups, you have to start somewhere, so rather than draw a conclusion prematurely as some have chosed to do, I will forever keep an open mind and wait and see. Time will tell, as it always does, and having seen so many industries evolve over the years, as was pointed out with cellular, sats, alarm industry, now wireless internet, so why not solar? One think I have learned over the years with regards to technology, never say never. Having come from the computer industry, I have seen it all, and it is not over yet. The latest technology I have been watching is similar, $19.95 per month wireless or commonly known as WIFI, another industry threatened by new technologies. It wasn't that long ago when WIFI was said to be restricted to airports, so anyone who says Citizenre can't succeed needs to learn an important lesson, never say never. lol Good luck to all, Mike LOW-COST-WIFI.com |
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February 14, 2007
Interesting,
Nice to see IAUS mentioned, sure has helped the stock rise, having been invested for two years, nothing in this industry happens over night. What I found interesting with this debate is that no one considered what going public would raise in potential capital? It is always nice to see a good debate on any alternative energy technology, either formed from fear of loss, fear of the unknown, the new kid on block syndrome, the claim of scam, or from the ignorant, and this one qualifies on all fronts. cont. |
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February 14, 2007
David Gregg has never worked in the industry before and does not even have a college degree. You are clearly an expert at MLM sales but have no technical background. Who on your team can solve materials problems or implement NREL's (research stage) silicon manufacturing process?
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February 14, 2007
Rob,
I do not dispute that it is technically feasible to lower pv costs through vertical integration and large scale production. Most of the studies mentioned either were led by BP Solar's Tim Bruton or attempted to validate the work of Tim and others doing similar research. What I am increasingly skeptical of is whether Citizenre could successfully implement these models on the promised schedule with the team you have. Citizenre does not list a single technical expert with pv manufacturing expertise on its web site. Dr. Wills is an inverter expert, not a pv cell manufacturing or materials expert. Daniel Two Eagles was formerly an inverter marketing executive at Beacon Power and has two English degrees. |
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February 14, 2007
Our industry needs well trained installers and high quality components. In most cases receiving cheap upfront costs is much more costly in the long run. Our industry goal is to provide a sustainable future for all generations to come.
Slow and steady wins the race. The United States solar business has been growing very steady and strong in recent years. Installers have become well educated and offer quality installations with proven technologies. If CitizenRe is able to accomplish high quality installations using quality components I applaud them. CitizenRe may be trying to do something that is not obtainable in this market. There is a company (Solar Liberty) offering training to installers by an ISP Certified Master Trainer. The company also offers the highest quality components using proven technology created by Albert Einstein. Visit www.powernaturally.org under news and notes to view the course information. In my opinion this is what the industry needs to succeed. |
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February 14, 2007
As one of the founders of the PV industry, I can tell everyone the CitizenRe model is wonderful. This should actually be a model set up by our government rather than a company. This "seamless transition" model should be mandated for utilities to operate. Simple as that. Also, does anyone consider how polluting manufacturing PV is? NIMBY will delay any manufacturing effort. This is why China PV is becoming a leader in manufacturing; no NIMBY there. Again, love the model; just in the wrong hands. Mr. Bush, read for once and realize the importance of what the people want. Finally, it's not right for PV people to fight over this. Remember, the sun and its power can heal our problems, but only on a very large mandated scale.
Sam... |
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February 14, 2007
What a pity ... Who ever is right or wrong, we will all loose.
Tim Gard |
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February 14, 2007
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I still come back to negativity breeds it and failure will manifest. I've been waiting 30 years...since I was 15. Younger than you Jeff/Martin! I used to teach and preach this stuff too. I see CR as a good movement even if it fails. The "industry" hasn't made solar affordable to the regular American in 30 years. It's time something happened to change that.
Martin, as a former teacher and mother, do not let "adults" discourage you from being your best. Remember, being your own cheerleader is the hardest job you will ever have. A lesson for all of us. |
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February 14, 2007
http://www.revisitors.com/links.html
Give that page a quick look. Search the page for "citizenre". Note the quality and nature of the other companies and sites using this linking service. Would a reputable company do this? |
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February 14, 2007
Here's to the future!
If it can work for satellite dishes, cell phones and alarm systems, it can happen again with solar panels. Change is inevitable, especially when there is a strong economic incentive... Reserve your system today. You can lock in your price per KWh for up to 25 years. It doesn't cost amything to do this. No one will visit you until there is financing, a plant, installers and solar panels. Where's the risk? http://www.jointhesolution.com/pittsburgh |
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February 14, 2007
And watch the Begley video linked on http://renu.citizenre.com/. Invoking Gandhi, Mother Theresa and all that emotional imagery and music? Red flags galore.
And a part that I think speaks volumes is when Ed's wife joins him and says: "Ed is always doing some crazy environmental idea, but this one even made sense to me." I'm sure Begley means well, but his wife's off-hand comment doesn't say much for Ed's credibility or discretion, does it? |
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February 14, 2007
Well, this is certainly entertaining. Mr. Styler, you are a smooth operator. Perhaps you learned that with Equinox? (Do a search for Styler and Equinox, if you're interested.) I don't know, maybe you are even sincere and not a scammer, in which case you suffer from some massive grandiosity complex.
Take a look inside the CR website. Yes, it is beautiful on the surface, but it's paper thin just below. Read the page on education and training, for instance. Or visit this page: http://www.powur.com/web/ and click the 'view our mission' button. Give you much confidence? |
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February 14, 2007
Now i found the wright solarcollector for MLM Systems.
The price is 18000$, so the structur can earn 95percent from the price, thats great.And so easy to install,a realy hightec machine. http://www.xenotechresearch.com/solvari1.htm |
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February 14, 2007
This company is maybe the right supplier for MLM PV Systems .
SALEM, UTAH- International Automated Systems, Inc. [IAUS.OB] [IAUS: OTCBB] announced today that it has successfully finished its first high-volume run of its new breakthrough solar panels. Nearly 1,000 Kilowatts of IAUS's solar panels were manufactured in a short 24-hour run. On a 24/7 operating schedule, an estimated 350 Megawatts of IAUS panels can be produced annually. In comparison, a traditional photovoltaic (PV) solar module manufacturing plant with a yearly capacity equal to IAUS would cost an estimated $840 Million to construct. Low-cost energy produced by IAUS's new patented and patent-pending solar technology can be used to generate electricity or produce clean fuels such as hydrogen and green methanol (gasoline replacements) at a competitive price. Many experts had predicted that no solar power technology would likely accomplish this milestone before the year 2025. |
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February 14, 2007
I am done here, thank you for your answer Mr. Wolfe.
I plan to do a report on solar in america for a school paper. I have been inspired to get involved. Yes, I am young inexperienced and currently have a d in english. I am not an employee or salesmen for citizenre. All my information is based on what my father tells me. He is in the construction business and has already signed up a few neighbors for the program. I think I did alright in an adult discussion....at least I got the answers I was looking for. Yeah, I may only be 17 but will be here when most of you are gone. My children will breathe clean air, use clean energy and not fight for oil. My father believes in Citizenre and so do I. For the record, my name is Martin. Where I go to highschool will not be revealed, I have already been to the prinipals office once this week. |
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February 14, 2007
(cont'd)
Don't mistake the massive critiques of Citizenre: from the existing PV industry as our "fear" of being unable to compete. The future we dread is one of selling to a generation of consumers widely and well versed on the perils of installing a solar electric system, due to the thousands of stories of deceived and defrauded hopeful system owners who involved themselves with a defunct and fraudulent organization once known as Citizenre:. The PV industry does not need an Enron to call its own. |
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February 14, 2007
I've closely watched this commentary thread following Jeff Wolfe's article, and was glad to see that Mr. Styler and Mr. Wills opted to respond to the charges here.
Unfortunately, and consistent with ALL communications we've seen thus far from Citizenre:, this response is massively inadequate, evasive, and disingenuous. On a very basic level, this business model is borne of the same "something for nothing" mentality seen in the internet boom of the late 1990's. Don't attempt to claim that you're trying to "revolutionize" the solar industry for the sake of growing renewable energy - you yourself admit that the consequence of your (likely) failure will be massive damage to the mainstream acceptance of solar energy. If you were so benevolent, you wouldn't take this risk with so little chance for success, and so great a cost for failure. |
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February 14, 2007
note to Rob Styler: the ecopreneur who called me the other day knew next to nothing about solar: installation options, costs, permits, sizing, shading...really, next to nothing. He admitted he hasn't made a dime yet, and why should he? What service is this guy really providing to me (complete waste of time on the phone), or to prospective solar buyers who learn no details and are asked to delay their commitment to solar energy well into next year? Let's talk when you are actually capable of delivering something useful. Until then keep your evangelists out of my region, please.
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February 14, 2007
Whoo,
its funny ,america stops globalwarming. With PV ! 100000set per year, great ! Maybe we europians slepp, or not. Distrubtion with a MLM system ? I know a old story, named windtree,maybe the managers change from wind to sun ? this story looks like a big joke ! |
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February 14, 2007
Wow! This is incredible. It's The Smooth Talkers vs. the Realists. A classic battle. I cast my lot with the Realists, and can be found tomorrow installing solar modules and spinning electric meters backward, not just dreaming of how great it would be if 25% of the...
cheers to Jeffery Wolfe for starting this much-needed discussion. |
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February 14, 2007
Jeff:
I could not agree more. One of the things that has become painfully obvious to us is that we need to dramatically increase our level of training. We would never expect our independent reps to achieve anywhere near your level of training and understanding in the solar industry, but we do need to raise the bar. All of the real technical and engineering details will be handled by our franchisees. We also need to increase the level of professionalism amongst all of our Ecopreneurs. Most do a wonderful job, but some get emotional and defensive. As long as we can keep the debate at a high level, we can all learn. We are implementing a much more challenging test in order for anyone to represent our solution. Current Associates will also have to pass within seven days or their ability to work with us will be terminated. We are very serious about our mission. Thanks, Rob |
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February 14, 2007
Rob,
I have disagreed with logic. What I read from many of the comments here from prople who appear to be associated with CitizenRE is rhetoric, slander, and sarcasm toward me, and others who are currently in the solar industry. So if you're going to ask for civility, how about from all on the posts, not just some. So far as whether or not your plan will be valid if you announce $650 million of financing, I'll render my judgment after I read the announcement and do some research. Not all financing announcements are equal. In response to Jeff Wolf's question above, about the quantum leap, I answered that already, at the end of my article. And of course, I'm for a quantum leap, so long as it is in the forward direction. As I've clearly set forth after considerable study, I do not believe that CitizenRE embodies this forward quantum leap. Jeff Wolfe (article author) |
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February 14, 2007
I find the debates about our business model interesting. Can we all agree that if a major bank would loan us $650 million dollars, then our business plan must have some merit?
I realize that is all just speculation until our press release happens, but can we at least all agree that when (and in some of your mind "if") that day happens that our model will validated. Of course we still have to deliver, but I hope we move past this initial phase of scepticism. Also, I am not clear what was "sleazy MLM tactics" about the response of Dr. Wills. You may disagree, but it is an honest and forthright answer. Can't we have an open debate without name calling... Disagree, fine. But disagree with logic, not rhetoric. Rob |
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February 14, 2007
My father talks about this Citizenre company every night to my mother when he gets home. Maybe I shouldn't be on his computer but the way he talks about this company makes me want to get involved rather than getting in trouble with my friends. So william, what conclusion have you come up with?
I am not going anywhere for a 17 year old I get the concept. I am for it! Now anwer the question you "educated" people! Is it better to try for a quantum leap that results in PV power costing less than retail electricity? Or should we sit back doing business as usual, letting the government tell us they are supporting solar while they spend many times the annual SAI budget every week in Iraq. |
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February 14, 2007
Jeez! Well, if you read all this and can't tell the difference between logic and sophistry, between rational arguments and emotional babble, then I guess you're just gonna have to get Citizenized and learn the hard way. You poor "ecoprenuer" guys can't recognize the same sleazy MLM tactics that have been around for years. Or, you can and are sleazy too. Hopefully your BS pyramid will crumble sooner rather than later and real solar people won't be further distracted by your noise.
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February 14, 2007
Actually William I am 17 and care very much about this movement. My future lies in the hands of the decisions made today! Maybe I do only have a sixth grade education however the only rat I smell here is Richard and the Wolfe. Your educational background still doesn't answer my questions and the questions posed to Mr. Wolfe.
When I turn 18 I do not want to die over oil, because the solar Industry had a chance at a solution and passed it up besause of the skeptics and naysayers. |
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February 14, 2007
CONCLUSION
I have seen in this blog, statements made by very educated people to things about Citizenre which they state are'criminal'? I believe that money would have to change hands in order for that to apply. But what I mainly see and read is a lot of nervous people already in the business and upset that a new player is going to change the game. Citizenre will become the next 'category killer' ie, like Walmart, Home Depot, Toyrus,etc is to retail, and i probably would fell the same way. Actually I did once 15 years ago when a new store opened that we all said couldn't last with those prices.For me it was Petsmart. I got out of the business and came into the alarm business. And into the solar business. Things change and you have to be adaptable. |
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February 14, 2007
PART FIVE
Will Citizenre have growing pains? Absolutely and lots of them. They will be 12-18 months constantly behind on installs and of course depending on the region of the country and the franchisse doing the installs. But know this, whether its Citizenre or another solar company this model is coming and its coming fast. Once installs begin the pace will pick up. When homeowners start seeing their neighbors with their panels the entire industry will explode and try to keep up. The investors are going to demand more production plants so as not to miss out to new competition which will surely come. |
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February 14, 2007
PART FIVE
MASS MARKET, through mass market, the density of alarms in residential is now over 35%. There are a lot of alarm co. owners who are now worth millions where before mass market they did ok but nothing as compared to today. I have read that there is no way that enough installers will be available to complete the backlog of installations. My guess is installers in the solar industry are hourly paid between 15-20.00 a hours and complete a job in two days. In the alarm industry it use to be all techs were paid by the hour and did one job a day. After mass market new trainees were recruited and trained, they were paid piece work and completed two installs a day what was said couldn't be done. Our average installer makes 60k a year as compared to the hourly tech who might make 40k and do 33% less installs. If you pay by the job, more jobs will be done. |
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February 14, 2007
PART FOUR
My guess that the cost to install an average size single story home with the type of system that Citizenre is proposing would be in the 2-4 dollar range maybe a high of 4-8 for this model to be attractive to the investor group. Alarm companies sell their monitoring contracts to banks for about 90% of the term value of the contract. The dealer has to financially guarantee the first twelve months fulfillment to the back or risk a chargeback for the entire fundable amount. How can a company give away for free what cost 2-5 thousand dollars before and only charge 30.00 a month for 36 months? |
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February 14, 2007
PART THREE
Fast forward now to 1992, the denisty of residential alarm systems is about 2% and cost between 2-5 thousand dollars to install. The installing dearler doesn't care if they get the monitoring as they made a ton of money off of the install. A new company in Texas called the Alert Center, enters the market with a marketing plan of the "free" alarm system. They have no expierence in the industry, all the existing companies cry 'foul' you can't cheapen the industry by giving away what we charge thousands of dollars for. Which sounds exactly what I am reading and hearing on the net. It seems that no one already in the industry wants 'Citizenre' to pull back the curtain on the 'wizard' exposing the costs. As I must admit that I do not know of what it cost to produce a non rental unit that lets say costs 40,000. . But my guess it costs with the labor around 15-18 thousand dollars to produce. |
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February 14, 2007
Part 3:
There is a massive paper trail here if you want to search NTIS, Pascal, EI Compendex, Inspec, International Science Database, and other premium (annual costs starting in the $3,000+ to $15,000 range per database) engineering and scientific research databases. I would suggest that every Citizenre associate, sales manager, and sales director needs to read these documents. The greenpeace document's chapter 4 pretty much defines the business plan how to do this, while the more recent studies validate the results of the earlier MUSIC-FM study. Dr. Richard George, Phd |
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February 14, 2007
Part 2
Greenpeace Study: http://archive.greenpeace.org/climate/renewables/reports/kpmg8.pdf 2002 conference paper presented by BP Solar confirming final MUSIC-FM 1997 report findings: http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/solar/bp_solar_global/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/o/OA6_1_h.pdf 2003 ECN paper on photovoltaics experience curves: http://www.iea.org/textbase/work/2003/extool-excetp6/II-sch.pdf 2005 paper presented by BP Solar at the SEMICON2005 conference http://www.epia.org/08Events/SEMICON2005/SE05_PRES1_06.pdf GA Tech roadmap study http://www.ece.gatech.edu/research/UCEP/papers/12iwpsd/Cost%20and%20Technology%20Roadmaps%20for%20Cost-Effective%20Silicon.pdf 2002 California Solar to Scale Study http://www.solarcatalyst.com/SolarToScale-0702.pdf These are a teaser. There are hundreds of relevant papers, most of which require a doctoral background in photovoltaics and related subjects to follow. |
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February 14, 2007
I came across this while through our internal forums. We have an open forum in the back office of office of our company where anyone can ask any questions they want. This was a response from Dr. Richard George (how quickly things change):
OK - it's time to kill off the "how is this possible" theme of comments once and for all. There is a massive paper trail in the photovoltaics research literature - I've got 116,000+ publications in my photovoltaics database. The basic blueprint for Citizenre was published in the 1995 MUSIC-FM (Multi Megawatt Upscaling of Silicon and Thin Film Solar Cell and Module Manufacturing) study that was funded by the European Union. There was another 1999 Greenpeace study and have been a variety of conference papers and reports published over the last decade. Here are some links to some of the more relevant papers and reportsL |
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February 14, 2007
PART TWO
The cell phone industry needs no current explanation. Remember when the mini dish came out? It was selling for 599.00, they sold thousands because this was such a great deal as compared to the thousands you had to pay for the giant dish. Then they dropped the price from 599 to 499, 399,299,199,99, and now they are free installation and instread of thousandsof new customers there are millions and millions of customers.The dealers from twenty years stated there was no way you can produce a dish 24" that will work and give it away free, how could that possibly work. |
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February 15, 2007
Bottom line is that the utility companies have had a business model that has worked over 100 years which is so simple: NO upfront costs to get your energy needs meant based on the operation of a CENTRALIZED power plant(s) burning inexpensive fuel (coal, natural gas and oil) and inexpensive transmission costs (mostly subsidized by the government).
It cost about 2 billion dollars to build a 1000 MW coal fired power pant in 2007 dollars. We will spend that same 2 billion on RE systems that provide on site power plants that we will own (and the customer CAN buy at some point if they want to) with NO fuel cost and NO transmission cost and we will beat the utilities at there own game each and every time. They will not be able to offer cheaper electricity until they to sell nothing but RE. We will peg our discounted electric price to their energy prices. OUR fuel and transmission is essentially free. Hard to compete with "free"! Stay tuned.......the battle has just begun. John D'Angelo Founder and CEO http://www.beutilityfree.com |
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February 15, 2007
There are some key differences in our business model from CR. One big difference is that we will install (subcontract) ANY RE system and not just limit installs to PV. After all a good wind location can be just as good as a good solar site.
Our basic plan is to start slow and target specific areas PV, wind and solar thermal) that have paybacks of 5-10 years FIRST and then as ENERGY prices (not just electricity) continue to rise (nationally at 2% per year) and as volume ramps up, new RE technologies come on line the economics will continue to improve. Yes we plan to have a sales force and am considering network marketing and we will not be asking for any upfront money either or purchase of any inventory. There will be some key differences as well. continued |
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February 15, 2007
BeUtilityFree, Inc has a similar business model. We are NOT a start up. We are in the early stages of raising capital (an IPO), not to build any secret PV super plants but to actually secure capital for purchase of equipment that goes on buildings. We have confidence that the IPO will go well and actually have our first on site company owned systems in 6-9 months after our initial IPO. We will use current of the shelf technology that have a track record PV, solar thermal and wind). Installers will be approved installers in the locations that we choose. We have studied the CR business model and find quite a few problems with it and we feel that our business model WILL succeed. Being in the RE business (solar thermal, wind and PV) for over 25 years the main thing that stops 98% of all people from going solar (RE) is FIRST time cost.
continued |
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February 15, 2007
I found this on GrassRootsModern.com. Does it sound just a little familiar ? LOL
http://forum.grassrootsmodern.com/discussion/81/affordable-solar-power/#Item_0 Frank Knight wrote this there, the same as here, almost word for word. I guess this is a CR standard mode of operation to quite skeptics. |
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February 15, 2007
Many years in commercial lending with one of the largest banks in America taught me a few lessons ---- all of which would make me run from this deal as fast as I could. It fails the sniff test right out of the chute.
A good deal doesn't need this much defense. These sorts of responses are warning signs --- red flags. They negate the need for any further research. By the way: how many of you actually have PV sytems on your roofs? Every day you delay is more CO2 in the atmosphere. What this industry needs is fewer enthusiasts and more people who will actually take the plunge and buy a system. Quit making excuses. Go solar today. |
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February 15, 2007
Jerry Robinson, your comparison to alarm systems is perfect. Installing $3000 systems for "free" with $30/month contracts is profitable. Installing $30,000 PV systems for free with a $300/month contract is equally profitable. Installing $30,000 systems with a $60/month contract, however, doesn't work. Yet that's essentially what Citizenre is promsing and that's why people are asking questions.
If I announced Prius clones for lease at $60/month I could sign up many "ecoprenuers" and customers. If I had no car design or manufacturing experience and hadn't even built a factory yet people would question whether I was for real or not. Rightly so. |
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February 15, 2007
Thanks Alfred for the reference to Nanosolar. They may be the key to how CitizenRe could deliver on its claims.
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February 15, 2007
There are some current solar business owners who will get involved in the mass market solar business. they will do very well, their techs will train new techs the market will take care of itself. Existing alarm owners prior to the mass market explosion said the same thing as far as installers in 1993, "no way it can be done, not enough installers available" we know where that went. Its all about capitalism.
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February 15, 2007
Continued -- Nanosolar
Our technology dramatically lowers the process cost and complexity involved in the production of thin-film solar cells and makes it possible to scale production very rapidly. The result sets the standard for the technology and products that make it possible to put A Solar Panel on Every Building(TM). |
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February 15, 2007
Thank you, Alfred, for the reference to Nanosolar.
After reading about it (home page text pasted in below) and finding out that -the founders of GOOGLE have invested in it -they've just secured a huge building site -that they have new proprietary technology, and -that they want to mass produce on a global scale,..put a solar panel on every building,.. I think this may be the key to CitizenRe. Big thumbs up!! Read below Nanosolar is on track to make solar electricity: cost-efficient for ubiquitous deployment mass-produced on a global scale available in many versatile forms. Nanosolar has developed proprietary technology that makes it possible to simply roll-print solar cells that require only 1/100th as thick an absorber as a silicon-wafer cell (yet deliver similar performance and durability). Watch the CNN video. continued |
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February 15, 2007
We are defintely the first to admit our shortcomings. We realize our sales force is not fully trained and make it very clear. We are working very hard to train our sales force before our announcement, and most of you will be pleased.
As stated from an earlier post: I have no problem bringing in proffessionals in the renewable energy space into Citizenre everyweek. Alot of them say "man this is going to upset alot of existing solar companies". It doesn't take a PhD or a MBA to know that! It seems the olnly people with anything negative to say are existing installers. |
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February 15, 2007
We are the first to admit that our sales force is not fully trained yet. That is one of the reasons we have decided to postpone our announcement. This seems as if it's turning into "ring around the rosie".
As stated in an earlier post: I have no problem bringing in proffessionals in the renewable energy space into Citizenre everyweek. Alot of them say "man this is going to upset alot of existing solar companies". It doesn't take a PhD or a MBA to know that! The fact is the only people in here who seem to be upset are existing installers. We have been expecting this to happen. As Rob Wills stated: there is plenty of work for all of us. |
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February 15, 2007
To those of us doing installs today. CR in going to need installers and they will no doubt be calling existing companies in specific geographies to see if we are interested in buying the $75,000 franchises rights. If we refuse, they will have to either turn down the customers in the entire region, or try to establish a fuctioning installation crew/company. Those of us doing installs today know the cahllenges of this task. Doesn't happen overnight, or even over several months. It takes years to develop a smooth, efficient running business of any kind, especially a construction business. Don't get me wrong CR, I like the model you present, I just don't think you are going to make good on your promises, giving our industry a black eye.
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February 15, 2007
Sorry, here is the link:
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/podcast?id=47452 Or, you can find the "Inside RE Podcast" box on the home page. |
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February 15, 2007
Dear Readers,
If you would like to continue following this story, please listen to the newest episode of Inside Renewable Energy that looks at the debate surrounding Citizenre. You do not need any special software to listen. Just go to the link and click "Listen to Podcast." It's as simple as that! Thank you very much, Stephen Lacey Podcast Editor stephen@renewableenergyaccess.com |
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February 15, 2007
After speaking with several different "ecoprenuers", it is clear they really do not know what they are talking about. I am glad upper management will be doing something about it. As for the actual installation, who is going to do it. CR talks of franchises, but who actually will be available. We in the PV industry are grabbing up every available body we can get a hold of just to keep up with our own expansion. Start- up "franchises" delivering quality product seem highly unlikely to me.
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February 15, 2007
Thanks Alfred,
I agree with you,the solutions are not going to be simple or easy. That is why CitizenRe represents such a danger. It encourages people to believe and behave as if there is a simple and easy answer. |
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February 15, 2007
I agree that current methods of installing industry standard solar PV modules on homes that were not designed for them is labor intensive and expensive. There are lots of opportunities for improving the cost of the balance of system components and labor. Building integrated solar products offer some benefits for new constructions. Reducing the size of the inverter by using low voltage air conditioners like SolCools new models is another way to reduce the cost of a solar PV system. Hopefully, other smart folks out there can find additional ways to reduce costs, and make money in the process. I am not saying it is simple or easy. Just think of the current cost problems as opportunities for innovative improvements.
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February 15, 2007
Joe,
Come on down off the internet and get up onto a roof or two with me and I think you will have a better understanding of what is involved in installing a quality PV system that preserves and enhances the value of the home. |
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February 15, 2007
Perhaps CitizenRE is just trying to build a large customer list so they can volume purchase cheap solar modules from the likes of NanoSolar (Google NanoSolar for more info.) The time frame for these two ventures looks similar. NanoSolar hopes to produce solar cells in 2007 that are five to ten times cheaper than current cells.
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February 15, 2007
PV grid tie Install, $500 for labor, two workers.
There are plenty of young electricians who would love to make $250 a day, day after day. As far as: Build Mechanically Flashed Mounting Rack: 16 Hrs Run Conduit and Install Inverter: 16 Hrs Seems like a lot of time to me. |
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February 15, 2007
I do not think people should sign up to sell something that does not exist yet. That is the issue, build your plant, have product, have an installation network, then and only then sign people up. That's the fair way to do it. We all want solar to go main stream, we want Citizenre to succeed, but don't put the cart before the horse. The effort is commendable, the the model exciting, but the execution is bassackwards and therefor suspect.
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February 15, 2007
I have no problem bringing in proffessionals in the renewable energy space into Citizenre everyweek. Alot of them say "man this is going to upset alot of existing solar companies". It doesn't take a PhD or a MBA to know that! I even brought aboard a fine gentleman today who read through THIS thread and then made his decision to sign up with us as an Ecopreneur.
We both agreed that this opportunity is a "no brainer". I think it's a great healthy debate, that is actually helping us out alot! Life would be boring without any sort of challenge. |
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February 15, 2007
Todd,
It's easy to misunderstand things when you don't have the truth. Rob's book was what ended up shutting Equinox down, so obviously he must have left a long time before that happened. Have you ever tried to write a book? I haven't and I can tell you it takes a long time. He was the lead witness against the company at the trial. He helped bring "a bunch of greedy babblers" to justice! |
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February 15, 2007
Wow Todd, that was classy.
Just a bit about us greedy people. Many of us are willing to represent this company and the potential good they can do knowing full well we will not get compensated for up to 2 years for what we are doing. Working for free because we believe in what this company represents is one of the greediest things I have ever heard of, I'm sure most would agree. I will say what I have said elsewhere. I would rather be on the side of the gullible hopefuls working for something that can greatly benefit our society and potentially be wrong, then be on the side of those working against such an opportunity for the sake of saving my current position in the marketplace. I do not think everyone against Citizenre is against it because they fear for their future, but I do think many of you who are so vocal definitely have your own interests in mind. Contrast that with those of us willing to take a chance for a better future and I'd rather be on our side. |
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February 15, 2007
Glenn asked "Why has the government in the U.S. not been contacted about this scheme". Google "Rob Styler" and Equinox. His old company was busted by the Feds and he made cash from it by writing a book. Google him with Lifewave too. Man, what a crooked crew these guys are! And what a pathetic bunch of gulible and greedy babblers they have fronting for them! Oh well, who needs logic when sophistry is so much easier!
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February 16, 2007
I've installed solar thermal (ST) and PV on my roof in Illinois - ST for hedging against gas volatility, and palatable payback; PV for fun, knowledge & bragging rights. Projecting my municipality's electric rates ($0.08/KWH), payback for my PV is ~25 years, or essentially the system life. (this assumes selling REC's for 25 yrs @ $75/MWH; I have only a 3yr deal) (This 3.1 kW system was self-installed for $4/W, after incentives & RECs. System makes ~3MWH/yr, I use ~5MWH/yr)
The Citizenre model might fly if manufacturing/leasing/installing high efficiency appliances (A/C, fridges, etc. with greater EROI, and negligible installation effort) - but I doubt it for complex and highly site specific PV. Not to mention difficulties navigating local village/city/county processes & ordinances - many never having dealt with PV on their grids. How to fit a guarunteed10MWH/yr system on Joe Avg. American's roof... Who pays to move the system when it's time to re-roof? If the PV causes leaks? |
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February 16, 2007
I was excited when I first heard of Citizenre and put a lot of effort into finding them and talking to their founder in order to write a story for my Off-Grid web site.
But they have a rather brusque and efficient telephone answering service (She admitted she worked from home)and they never got back to me. We left two messages and two emails but there was never any reply. I was still working out whether I believed in them or not when they put a free classified ad on my site - http://www.off- grid.net/classifieds/showcat.php?cat=3&page=1 I notcied that the advertiser was from the Bronx in New York, but in that case why did they have a 415 area phone number? I giess this is the MLM effect that Mr Wolfe talks about. So now I no longer have any faith in Citizenre - however I notice that the personnel they have announced joined the ocmpany are creible people - so perhaps they have been misled about the company? Nick Rosen www.off-grid.net |
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February 16, 2007
The point I see none of you making is what about the industry that stands to lose so much on this if it works? What are they saying? The railroads for example. There coal haulage is the most profitable commodity they haul. The manufacturers like GE? And last but not least, the power geration companys themselves? Are they just standing by and saying "let's see"? If this is a threat to them I hardly think there taking this sitting down?
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February 16, 2007
Bottom line is that the utility companies have had a business model that has worked over 100 years which is so simple: NO upfront costs to get your energy needs meant based on the operation of a CENTRALIZED power plant(s) burning inexpensive fuel (coal, natural gas and oil) and inexpensive transmission costs (mostly subsidized by the government).
It cost about 2 billion dollars to build a 1000 MW coal fired power pant in 2007 dollars. We will spend that same 2 billion on RE systems that provide on site power plants that we will own (and the customer CAN buy at some point if they want to) with NO fuel cost and NO transmission cost and we will beat the utilities at there own game each and every time. They will not be able to offer cheaper electricity until they to sell nothing but RE. We will peg our discounted electric price to their energy prices. OUR fuel and transmission is essentially free. Hard to compete with "free"! John D'Angelo Founder and CEO http://www.beutilityfree.com |
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February 16, 2007
Bottom line is that the utility companies have had a business model that has worked over 100 years which is so simple: NO upfront costs to get your energy needs meant based on the operation of a CENTRALIZED power plant(s) burning inexpensive fuel (coal, natural gas and oil) and inexpensive transmission costs (mostly subsidized by the government).
It cost about 2 billion dollars to build a 1000 MW coal fired power pant in 2007 dollars. We will spend that same 2 billion on RE systems that provide on site power plants that we will own (and the customer CAN buy at some point if they want to) with NO fuel cost and NO transmission cost and we will beat the utilities at there own game each and every time. They will not be able to offer cheaper electricity until they to sell nothing but RE. We will peg our discounted electric price to their energy prices. OUR fuel and transmission is essentially free. Hard to compete with "free"! Stay tuned.......the battle has just begun. John D'Angelo Founder and CEO http://www.beutilityfree.com |
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February 17, 2007
All my years of engineering inverters (yes I actually build them) leads me the the thought I leave you with. If it seems to good to be true, it usually is.
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February 18, 2007
if something sounds too good to be true.....
I have forgotten the name of the origionator....but Frost or H. David Throrau ? said : EVERYTIME HE MENTIONS HIS HONESTY.....WE START RECOUNTING OUR SILVERWARE ! NO CONNECTION WHATEVER implied to anyone living or expired....but I do get a distant "way distant and far removed" impression from TIME'S MAN OF THE YEAR 1934 and what he is reputed to have said about the "untruth"? prm jr. PS: Who is guarding the Cookie Jar....Chamberlain had a wonderful paper....IT WAS SIGNED ! IT WAS DELIVERED ! |
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February 18, 2007
check out this blog about Citizenre. Some useful info, PLUS a powerpoint slide of the exact test Sales associates have to take. definitely worth a look.
http://logiq.wordpress.com/ |
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February 19, 2007
Brad, Just what should we expect threatened industries to do? Go to Congress? Government is always the problem, never the solution. Let's see what develops. Nanosolar may have just the thing for this.
Here's something to ponder: Our government's war in Irag will cost $2 trillion. We have 100 million homes in America, roughly, all receiving insolation. We could have been out of the Mideast and with a roaring domestic economy by now if our "leaders" had responded correctly in 1973 to the Arabs, instead of reacting like they did in 2002 to 9/11, bailing out TWO industries--the airlines and oil importers--that should have been allowed to fail. Don't forget to include the cost of a half dozen carrier task forces and a couple of Army divisions in the figures. Jim Camasto: Leaks? Put your panels on the ground like I did. Sam: You're right on--run for office... |
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February 20, 2007
Frank, Are you not aware of the Bush/Cheney Administration links to Halliburton and other oil/construction giants? Your eyes may be wide open, but they aren't reading the papers...
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February 20, 2007
Oh well... they deleted my links! If you go to any of the powur sites my extension is /flagnomore if you want to contact me my phone and email are there... I am not doing this for personal gain just offering more info.
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February 20, 2007
If CitizenRE would like to put their money where their mouth is...
Here is an offer for 70w and 80w solar panels for $2/watt (EU) (~$2.60 USD). http://www.solarplaza.com/content/tf_offer_detail.php?Offer_id=234 According to my calculations the economics work and there is enough panels for about 72 (5KW AC) systems. I would do it myself but I don't have a business that can handle $300,000 in tax credits. |
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February 20, 2007
I thought this was a site to promote renewable energy! Mr. Wolfe... why are you using this Forum to try and put our Baby down before it is even walking? I thought this would be a good place for folks to help us nurture the baby seeing the good we want to do with a Grass Roots Movement to make solar available to the masses in a way never done before... sorry if you were offended... guess I was in the wrong place! I hope to find more Forums to promote Solar... not run a good idea down before getting its first Ray of Sunshine! C'mon... give us a chance!
I am an independent ecopreneur with Citiizenre so my opinion might be biased, but I don't claim to be "single most recognized and trusted source for Renewable Energy News and Information on the Internet" But I am a concerned Citizen doing the best I can with what I have... believe in us! We are many "Forces of One" combining to do something beautiful! Watch us. |
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February 20, 2007
Sign the petition to have the SEC investigate CitizenRe at:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/208387720?z00m=99858<l=1171991391#body |
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February 20, 2007
Don't worry Mr. Wolfe... I will be copying this in multiple forums for you so your word can get out! No need to thank me!
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February 20, 2007
You look a little concerned in this email Mr. Wolfe and obviously someone in your herd believes in us or it would not have reached my Inbox!
Peace Bro' and good luck! Frank |
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February 20, 2007
Get the word out. Visit blog sites and post. On the blogs, direct people
to RE Access. Any new info you come across, get to Jim Callihan, Oliver Strube or Stephen Lacey at RE Access. CitizenRE is not giving up, they are not done spending their time, and they are not going away without a fight. And without a fight, they win, because Americans love to "give people the benefit of the doubt". Unfortunately, in this case that benefit to them puts you out of business while you wait for your customers to finally wake up and come back. Ask Bob-O. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Chief Executive Officer gro Brilliant Energy Solutions Is this a person with an unbiased opinion? It is important to understand the motivations of people when you read their words. I don't know Jeff and I am sure he is very sincere about his concerns, but we all see through a filter or our perception, and this seems to be a filter of self-interest. |
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February 20, 2007
Wow! I was just forwarded this in my emailm from a dear friend:
Jeff Wolfe has been very vocal about his concern with Citizenre. He is well respected in the industry and has done much to promote solar. He has stated that his position is not because of any threat Citizenre could pose to his business. I found this email that was forwarded to me very telling about his motivation. It is hard for people to accept or understand a new solution when they feel threatened. Here is an email from Jeff Wolfe to one of his collegues: While you may be done with CitizenRE, they are not done with you. Ignore them at your peril. Seriously. cont... |
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February 20, 2007
oh... btw I should say that I now consider myself an Environmental Activist... I do not understand why the Gov't is not letting the facts on Peak Oil and many other subjects be common knowledge for folks so we can all be aware of the problems and realize wa HAVE TO do something anyone with even half a mind after seeing what's really goin' on would want to do their part... our country needs to be well educated on our energy problems... it is obvious that if we all do not do something as far as helping the environment... this world is gonna start over again. By making it easy for folks to get Solar... they are doing a big part for our environment... especially where coal provides their power. C'mon folks lets work together to save this poor planet! Stop throwin' dirt and wish us luck! We have a big job in front of us! Powur of Citizenre Proud and Tall!
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February 20, 2007
btw... this is original... not copied from somewhere else.
I have known from the start that this was an awesome idea! I had no idea what an education I was in for... a lot of it from Richard George and his "Understanding the Key Driving Forces" training he put up in the Back Office for us... I thought I knew there was a problem... but I wasn't even close! My eyes are wide open and am learning more each day. I really feel like someone again... the new folks coming in are looking to me for learning... this makes me extremely happy knowing I have something to share. cont... cont... |
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February 20, 2007
the more I want to get the word out. No I am not a lifetime environmentalist I am just a busted up ol' Hickerbilly that sees a chance to make a big difference in our environment by makin' it easy for folks to upgrade to Solar... Citizenre is educating me and I am happy to learn. I spend 15+ hours a day 7-days a week working on bringing Solar to the US knowing my grandkids will breathe easier.
My life has changed for the better... I am more aware! Thanks Citizenre for the education. |
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February 20, 2007
EnviroCurrent,
Where you say: Frank Knight wrote this there, the same as here, almost word for word. I guess this is a CR standard mode of operation to quite skeptics. Yes... that is the same statement... it is my true feelings and I have simply copied to many forums with folks trying to tell us how this will not work... am I supposed to change my views overnight? I don't think so... I have learned more about Peak Oil and Global Warming through Citizenre's training online in the last 5-months than I have in the last 30-years... we know there is a big problem and we have a good solution... the more I learn... cont.... |
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February 21, 2007
Up until mid-Sept 2006... I watched the news nightly and never heard anything close to what's goin' on with our planet. Peak Oil was a phrase I had not heard of until finding Citizenre. Global Warming was pretty familiar and very evident!
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February 21, 2007
Howdy Bob,
I admit I am kind of a hermit... I have watched maybe 4-hours of TV since Sept.... part of it was the Inconvenient Truth... I was not as shocked as I would have been if not for the training I have been doing... I have a hard time learning from books... the material I am studying, I read like 20x's each and learn a little more each time... once I learn it it stays. We get a weekly paper up here and it hardly ever has Bush in it! Just local news. I would be happy to read-up on what you are talking about if you would be kind enough to guide me.... it would give me a little break trying to defend what I believe in and the training that goes with it. Thanks, Frank |
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February 22, 2007
CitizenRE's plan is ambitious and their production timeframe may be unrealistic. As far as I'm concerned, even if they are 2 or 3 years delayed starting production and during that delay all existing PV manufacturers and installers end up bankrupt, CitizenRE is still accomplishing a great thing in the long run.
It makes perfect sense to me to market now to show investors how much interest there is. They aren't taking deposits now, so where's the scam? |
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February 22, 2007
The MLM criticism has no merit. CitizenRE is not taking any money from customers or sales reps at this time.
The investors are not the public, so no innocent people are getting sucked in that way. There is no fraud for the FTC to investigate. The bashers are akin to the Luddites during the Industrial Revolution. CitizenRE is more efficient. Get on board or you will be out of a job soon. |
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February 22, 2007
!!!!!!!!!!!!!WHERE'S THE BEEF!!!!!!!!!!!!
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February 22, 2007
Citizenre does appear to be more of a pyramid scheme than anything else. Really, you can't sell a product that does not yet exist, and I feel that established solar energy companies are justified in their concerns about solar power getting a bad reputation.
By the way, as a teacher of science, I believe advances in technology will solve the problems facing cheap supplies of energy today. However, I also think it's unethical to sell a product that science has not yet invented. After reading all of the above comments I would like to voice another opinion. I do not believe that Frank Knight and Jeff Wolf (not Jeff WolfE) are real people. I believe they are pseudonyms created by person or persons unknown who have a vested interest in Citizen. Hey, it's just my opinion, but their dialog and style are transparent. And what an amazing coincidence that there is a Jeff Wolf out there so diametrically opposed to the real Jeff Wolfe. |
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February 22, 2007
In regards to the detailed suggestion that we just wait until the plant is finished, that does not make sense to us or our investors. This plant will be able to produce a large amount of panels. If we waited till the plant was complete, at the number of sales we stared with over the first months, we would have a large amount of panels sitting on the shelf waiting for customers.
This would represent significant capital investment that would be collecting dust. Our model is to have a waiting list of customers so we can off-take production immediately. Our model has been known for a long time. Rob Wills met with some of the leaders of BP Solar last year and asked them why they did not act on the model, since they wrote some of it. Their reply, "We know we can produce it at the right price to make the model work if we build a plant that big...we just don't believe there is a market to handle the production." We are proving the market. Thanks, Rob |
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February 22, 2007
If you order a TV or a fridge, you pay the deposit before it is brought to your home. It would be highly unethical to take a deposit before we have the product. But once the panels are produced and they are waiting to be installed, I am sure you will agree that it is fair business practice to require the deposit so that we can be assured that the customer is serious before we invest more time and money. The franchisee has to schedule a day to go out and install the system for the customer. If they "change their mind"--that is a hard cost to our bottom line.
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February 22, 2007
We require the deposit after the design engineer has visited the home and the customer has signed off on the design. At this point, the panels will be waiting and ready to install at the franchisee's office.
The customer can go down to the office and see their panels. They can see the office. They see our branded trucks. Our business model will not be in question by this point. All of the doubts stem from the fact that we have to keep certain information confidential during this phase. Once that information is released, the doubt will disappear. |
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February 22, 2007
David - I couldn't quite tell from your post if you understood that the $500 deposit is not due until the customer signs off on the design after the design engineer visits. It is not due now when signing up, nor is it due when the design engineer makes the first visit.
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February 22, 2007
Howdy David,
I will run your idea about the deposit up to the folks that can make that kind of decision... looks good to me! One thing you may not be aware of is that our customers that signed up before 1-1-2007 do not pay a deposit... it was a special incentive for folks signing up. Hopefully this post will not be deleted like I see a few of mine already have been... sorry if I upset someone! Frank |
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February 22, 2007
Just a comment to Mark Frye who wants people to sign a petition to the SEC...Citizenre isn't a public company, it's private. If you want an investigation, shouldn't your petition be directed to the FTC? I think you have the wrong government entity in mind.
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February 22, 2007
2.) In lieu of that...A $500 deposit if they pay when the design engineer comes by, OR a $1000 deposit if they wait until the trucks show up. That way they have the option of having a leap of faith with your company and saving money or playing conservative by waiting.
3.) Or, with that $1000 option when the trucks arrive, also tie it into the customer committing to a 25 year contract whereas the $500 deposit person has the option of the 1 yr/5yr/25 yr. These ideas are simple and will show everyone in the world that it can not be a scam in any way shape or form because really no one has anything to lose. Not even $500 unless the customer chooses to. I will be an eager customer and sales rep if you change your deposit strategy. And with no one losing anything, how can this idea not increase sales exponentially? I look forward to your response. |
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February 22, 2007
To Allen Priest:
I think your $500 deposit idea needs tweaking. Currently you have almost 8000 homes signed up for your solar revolution. 8000 X $500 deposit = $400,000. A mere drop in the bucket if you have $650 million in financing. And of course 8000 homes are not going to back out of your solar revolution so your liability is low. Why doesn't your company employ one of these steps which I believe will not only greatly increase the amount of contracts signed, but also put customers and sales reps minds at ease? 1.) Require the $500 deposit when the equipment trucks show up. Why does it matter when you get the deposit when your loss liability is so low? (Continued next post) |
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February 22, 2007
Ok Frank as you say
"All in good time... Rome was not built in a day and neither will Citizenre. You will see.... patience is a virtue!" Time is running out..... You've shown that by putting off building Rome failed...... Will citizenre????? There is little virtue left in the world.... There is no virtue in scamming people..... |
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February 22, 2007
cont...
Fourth a year from now or when ever your ready go out and install the 8000 systems all over the country. Fifth test the whole program for aleast a year (something you should have done 5 years ago with your equipment on 50 homes or so). From manurfacturing to install to maintance/monitering/billing you will greatly benefit from a trial. See if numbers do indeed work. If they do you'll have no trouble attracting even more investors. Sixth assuming everything in the trial went well. Come back to the point your at now. Sell, sell, sell, millions of systems we all hope!!!!! Make billions of dollars yea!!!! If this doesn't fit your business model or you think it won't work money wise than do it because its the right thing to do (your making the average joe think you have and can do things you don't and can't... yet). Remember (Rob)that guy with the most money in his pocket at the end does not win. Good Luck Doug Nichols |
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February 22, 2007
cont..
I now know after much blog reading (postings written by Rob and Dr. Willis) that you have almost no components of the vast array of products and people that you need to make this happen. Is it too late? No just stop selling today. Have your reps contact the people that have signed up and give them an honest review of what they can expect from citizenre (tell them they are part of a piolet program). Second build your plant and panels. Build your inverters. Build the box thats going to do all that remote monitering. In other words build all these things your selling in such mass quantites (at least Amway, Pampered Chef actually have something to sell) Third while you are doing that hire / train / employ the 300 plus people you will need to install (in areasonable amount of time) the almost 8000 systems you have already promised to customers. cont... |
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February 22, 2007
Frank and Rob
As someone who builds enviromently friendly homes I would love to be able to put your solar panels on every home I build as part of the package. I would like to offer some sincer advice and as Frank puts it keep your baby healthy. Perhaps you could employ some of these points into your plan. First and **very importantly** STOP selling systems today take you website off-line and contact all your "people" and have them cease sales. Why? Because you have no products to sell. No one to install your said products. No infastructure to support installed systems (remote monitering, billing, etc...) You have no panels, inverters, racks... heck you don't even have a factory to produce these things. So what? Well on my first reading of your web-site many months ago. Terms like "our engineers", "our system" made me think you must have at least some of these things in place. cont... |
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February 22, 2007
All in good time... Rome was not built in a day and neither will Citizenre. You will see.... patience is a virtue!
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February 22, 2007
Hey I got an idea.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Either build the factory OR SHUT UP Either prove you can install in a day OR SHUT Come on prove your facts? OR SHUT UP Im still waiting to hear one of those famous people singing songs of praise about you and your business. Who are they again?? |
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February 22, 2007
Howdy Dan Casale,
I am sending your link to our forums. I was on a call with Citizenre's Dr. Robert Wills tonight and he told us that if someone could produce what we need for less money than they can, and can produce on a scale large enough to keep up with demand that Citizenre needs then he says they would buy it! I'll let you know the response comes back. Thanks for the tip! Are you a rep for them? |
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February 23, 2007
cont...
I realize you have made some things more clear on the blogs. No one I know would buy a appliance from a company that has never produced or installed a single unit. Now if you have plans to sell the most amazing appliance ever by all means sign people up to buy that product... but don't make people think you have a sound reliable product ready to deliver when you havn't even built or tested a prototype. Doug |
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February 23, 2007
Rob
You wrote: "The one thing I don't understand is your mention of me pocketing money." I didn't mean to imply that you personally are pocketing money. I don't know you... have not read your book and know nothing about your history except what you have posted yourself. I used your name because a: your answering posts, b: You seem (at least by what you say in your posts) to be concerened about the enviornment and c: you were involved in a company where the millions were there but not the accountability. I would ask you to help direct the entire citizenre team to act in a responsible way tward these 8000 + customers you have signed up and the hundreds more your signing up each day. This could mean you may not maximize your profits in the begining. But I say again your making the average Joe that reads your website think you have products you don't and can deliver services you can't (yet). cont... |
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February 23, 2007
Ron,
I understand you all have recently decided to move away from an AC module to some sort of mini array inverter. When do you think you will have the engineering done on this? Can we expect other changes in your plan? Do you still think you can get your costs down to where they need to be? When do you think you will be able to deliver your first system? MPF |
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February 23, 2007
We have taken several steps to make sure that our system cannot be abused. There is no cost to join, no monthly fees, and nothing to purchase. The challenge with most networking companies is that people have to buy the product and then hope to sell it. If they can't sell it, they are stuck with it..but the uplines still made their profit. This creates a model where people are pressured to buy more than they can afford.
With Citizenre, a rep never has to buy the panels. They are simply paid when they help a customer upgrade their home to solar. The system is then designed and installed by one of our certified, licensed and bonded franchisees. No security deposit changes hands until the customer signs off on the design and we have the panels ready to install. Simple. Thanks, Rob |
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February 23, 2007
No solar engineers will visit the customers house until the panels are produced. No deposits will be taken until the panels are ready to be installed.
Scott, network marketing is the best method for introducing a new model to the market. Do some research and read what Warren Buffet said after his company bought Pampered Chef. Things have come a long way since Amway (which happens to be a $6 billion a year company). |
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February 23, 2007
Sorry all, Thought my first post was deleted. Sorry for the repeat
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February 23, 2007
Are any of the originators of Citizenre former leaders of AmWay? This all sounds way too familiar for me.
In the long run, any business that relys on MLM is a legal scam and the only people to truly benifit are the top few who start it all. What is really scary is this one is done so well that even people like Ed Beggly Jr. are invloved. Why won't they answer Mr. Wolfe's Questions? Because they have no answers, there is nothing really there. If you get invited to a "party" at a friends house and a rep from Citizenre starts to draw circles on a large pad in a living room, RUN AWAY!!! |
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February 23, 2007
It is a real shame that a group of easily duped people are reviving the specter of AmWay and other failed MLMs into the solar industry! I am curious if any of the "executives" of Citizenre are former AmWay "leaders", they seem to keep popping up now and again with a new utopian "dream" of "financial freedom" for everyone. Alas, this time they are going to harm an industry that is just starting to make a real difference in the world.
In the long run, any MLM is a legal scam and the only people to truly benifit are the top 1% of the "up line", the ones who start it all. If you get invited to a "party" at a friends house and a rep from Citizenre starts to draw circles on a large pad in a living room, RUN AWAY!!! |
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February 23, 2007
Rob, you wrote that BP Solar said:
"We know we can produce it at the right price to make the model work if we build a plant that big...we just don't believe there is a market to handle the production." Maybe I'm not getting something. I don't see the downside of the consumer of locking in today's utility rates for 5 - 25 years. The only downside I see is if a more efficient technology comes along to produce solar cheaper. But as your company states, the customer just gets out of his contract and only loses the $500 deposit, right? Is the barrier that people don't want unsightly solar panels on their homes? Maybe I just haven't had a home long enough but do utility prices ever decrease year over year? Otherwise, I don't understand the market barrier. |
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February 23, 2007
David:
We will not take a deposit until we have the panels at the franchisee office and ready to install for that customer. Thanks, Rob |
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February 23, 2007
Ok, one more point of clarification I'd like answered if possible. As of today there are no solar panels.
So if I was a sales rep today, am I simply signing on homes to have a design engineer to come by and look at their house AFTER the panels are produced? Or is he coming by BEFORE the panels are produced? If the answer is BEFORE, do I tell the customers not to approve the design, and therefore not give a deposit, until after the panels are produced? I guess I'm asking are these 8000 homes signed on by citizenre being visited by design engineers today? Or will there be no design engineers employed in the operation until the panels are produced? |
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February 23, 2007
Doug, you are exactly the type of person we would like to work with. I would be happy to talk with you personally. I am not going to post my phone number here, but feel free to email me at rstyler@citizenre.com
Thanks, Rob |
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February 23, 2007
In my 20's I was involved with a company that used the environmental banner to promote a business that ended up being less than congruent. I left, wrote a book, and was the lead witness to shut that company down. I learned a lot from that experience and would never be part of something like that again.
The one thing I don't understand is your mention of me pocketing money. We make nothing until our model is proven and we are installing systems on rooftops. The onus is on us. We are absorbing all of the costs to set up the infrastracture. We are actually going to pay out millions in advanced commissions (with no money coming into the company) so we can support our sales team before the installations. This is simply an investment in our future on our part. It is important for us to have a back-log of customers once the plant is producing. |
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February 23, 2007
We fully realize that there is a huge population who is waiting to see if "we are real." Right now we are working with the earlier adopters and learning valuable lessons while we are still small. One of the things we learned is that we have to require stricter testing before people can represent our offer. We have not sign up fee, so the barrier to entry is low. This allowed some people to join our company who have not been responsible citizens of our community .
We are designing a more comprehensive test that will weed out the people who are not serious about our mission. This is an awkward time. There is a vacuum of information and many people are filling that vacuum with own fears. So many people are passionate about the environment and want to make sure that we are not using that passion to promote something that is not real. |
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February 23, 2007
Doug:
I appreciate your post. I have stated several times that we have not started to build our plant yet and we are in our pilot phase. Our installers will all be certified and bonded. By the time we are installing, the customer will be able to see our branded franchise office and trucks. It will be like Verizon or Dish Network coming to your home. Like any large investment, they do not give the entire amount in one lump sum. It would make no sense to pay the financing on $650 million before we have use for that capital. We are currently in negotions with two states who are offering significant incentive packages. The reason is does not make sense for use to divulge certain information right now is simple. During any negotiation, it is important to be discreet. |
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February 23, 2007
Thanks Rob and others for your response. You state:
"We require the deposit after the design engineer has visited the home and the customer has signed off on the design. At this point, the panels will be waiting and ready to install at the franchisee's office." So the customer "signs off" on the design then they pay the $500. And then the time between their deposit payment and the installation on their home is determined by the customer's schedule and the backlog of installations by the franchisee? |
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February 23, 2007
cont...
"If this doesn't fit your business model or you think it won't work money wise than do it because its the RIGHT thing to do (your making the average joe think you have and can do things you don't and can't... yet). Remember (Rob) that the guy with the most money in his pocket at the end does not win." Please reconsider your stratagy. Be totally honest-- not just with-in the law-- but really tell everyone what phase your in. If you do I think your counter will climb much faster. (you havn't even touched the huge grass roots community i.e. moveon.org (millions of) members etc... that are ready for this because your too "suspect" (mlm, no plant, etc...)) Doug Nichols |
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February 23, 2007
cont...
This is someones home. If every system you put up the first year fails (roofs leak or whatever?) and I sold that person (probably a friend or previous customer) the system they come back to me! My customers (I build eco-friendly homes) would have no problem waiting 2 to 4 years for your system (they would still sign up now to "prove that market"). But, I will not put my good name on the line for your unproven, untested product. I by no means want Citizenre to fail... or do I even think you will but I must repeat myself... cont... |
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February 23, 2007
Rob
You said "We are proving the market." Fine but don't you think you should give some indication to the people that your signing up that this is the phase your in. I'm really suspecting that you have a goal with that counter that tells how many people you have signed up before you go back to investors... what's the number 10,000, 30,000 more???? Have you even secured enough capital (signed the deal) to build the plant? Truth is always stronger. I could have and would have hundreds of people signed up if you would lay off the hype and give an honest assment of what phase your in. This is not cheap crap from Walmat or free email boxes on google. cont... |
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February 23, 2007
-------- My attitude to Citizenre:
I don't loose anything and I see similarities in the industry and hope that "End user like me will benefit" from the economy of scale. Thus I just wait and see. Thank you. Tom Newman |
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February 23, 2007
----- On installation:
I believe that installing PV panel and plug in the system in to the grid can someday be done by home owner. There is not much to it. With standard equipments and clear instruction, many people will be able to do it. There is not much to an installation, if the equipment is made intelligent enough to prevent errors. Look at how many people can install satellite dish on their own. Look at how many people actually order DSL and install themselves at home, no electrician needed. Intelligent systems allow normal people do that kind of installation. I believe that someday, installing PV to your house is just like installing a new washer or dryer, not more complicated. Electricians are worth more doing something else such as home automation system and not installing commodity. |
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February 23, 2007
------ On price:
The only reason why PV panel is expensive today is because of the economy of scale. With the massive demand as Citizenre plans, price must come down drastically. Many of us have dreamed of a large size Plasma of LCD flat panel TV two years ago ($15,000. for 40in). You can buy a 50in today for $1,500.-. I spent $1.700- for a Sony LCD that is now selling for $500.- only a year after ago. Who did predict that price fall? I believe that PV panels will fall into the same category. PV panel is even much less complicated to fab than LCD TV. |
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February 23, 2007
----- On similarities:
1. When Google came out and gave 1GB free email accounts while Yahoo! only gave 10MB, many people said Google would burst. Today I have almost 3GB and wish that I bought that Google share for $80.-. Of course Google is hated by many people whose business has been disrupted. See the scale of hatred websites dedicated to insult Google on the Internet. Result: "End users benefit" 2. Microsoft is also hated by notably the CEO of Sun Microsystems. End users see benefit in Microsoft software and the company strives. Sun CEO was "promoted" from the CEO position to president of a Division. Result: "End users benefit" 3. The electric car EV1 was killed because, electric car would kill a lot jobs (mechanics, transportation, gas station, etc.) according to the "Who killed the electric car" director. Citizenre would shake up the industry like Google did and therefore there is naturally resistant to change and "End-users have to wait to benefit" |
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February 25, 2007
"Folks experience huge delays, cost overruns, inferior quality/workmanship, etc "....
sounds great!!??? |
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February 25, 2007
I don't think Citizenre is any different from a developer who is "pre-selling" unbuilt real estate. I understand the author's concern but it seems there's very little risk to the consumer. So what if it takes longer to install and there's a huge backlog of orders to fill -- this happens everyday in real estate! Folks experience huge delays, cost overruns, inferior quality/workmanship, etc and yet where I live, a new neighborhood springs up every week. People actually give these companies more than $500 up front and there's no model home and there's no other development to reference.
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February 27, 2007
Sorry to disappoint you, Mark, but that is not the case. As I have stated several times, there is a second state who is offering us a significant incentive package and we are in the middle of those negotiations.
We also realized that our sales reps do not yet posses the level of training to professionally represent us in the marketplace. So we are developing a more comprehensive training and testing program. When these two areas are in place, then we will make our announcement. And, Mark, even you will be impressed. Thanks, Rob |
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February 27, 2007
Rob,
How is it going with being able to announce your backers? About this time last month you were saying the big announcement would come any day. A month has gone by. Still no news. Is it possible that you actually do not have any financial backing, will not be breaking ground on a plant and will not be delivering system by early 2008? |
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February 27, 2007
The reason a lot of people have an issue with MLM is because most companies require you to buy product every month in order to qualify for you check. So you have to spend money every month in order to qualify to earn money. We don't have that policy. You earn 5% of the monthly bill ofevery customer you support for the life of the contract. You don't even have to be a Citizenre customer. You don't have to buy anything or spend any money. Seems fair to me.
Thanks, Rob |
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February 27, 2007
As far as the concern about MLM, I know that a lot of people have strong emotions about MLM's. Some people have had a bad experience buying a franchise and they hate that model. They had to buy all of the materials from the franchise and they don't think it was fair. Other people have great experiences and love franchises.
MLM does have its challenges and we have done everything to mitigate those problems. With the Powur of Citizenre, there is no sign up fee, no website fee, no monthly fee, no autoship...people make money by helping people upgrade their home to solar. Period. |
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February 27, 2007
cont.
We understand that this is a revolutionary concept. The big power and oil companies have been saying for years that solar power has no market. They have a vested interest in making that claim. It is hard to see the truth when your paycheck depends on not seeing it. We are proving them wrong. We have to. The risks are too big if we don't. The only way that change is going to happen is if we create a better vision. For that vision to be sustainable, it needs to make economic sense for all parties involved. Electricity production is the number one source of pollution in the United States. We are not asking you to sacrifice anything. In fact, you can save a significant amount of money by upgrading your home to solar. When was the last time you could save money and do the right thing? Seems to me like we are pretty clear and upfront. |
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February 27, 2007
I pulled this right from our FAQ's on our website:
Q. I understand that your manufacturing plant is not completed yet, is that right? A. Correct. The first systems will be ready to install at the very beginning of 2008. Q. So why would I sign up now? A. First because you lock in your rate as soon as you sign up. With the way rates are increasing, this could save you a significant amount of money. Second, you reserve your position so you can get your system sooner once the plant is producing. Third, it also helps us show the market how many people will go green if we provide an offer that makes sense on every level, including economically. Q. What happens if I sign the contract and you never finish the manufacturing plant? A. The contract would be void and cancelled. We need to honor our end of the contract just like you will honor yours. |
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February 27, 2007
Doug: Thanks for clarifying that you don't think that I am pocketing money. The fact is that no one is "pocketing money." We are investing millions to create the infrastructure of this business model. If we did not fully intend to make this a reality, our actions would make no sense.
Let me restate that NO ONE gives us any security deposit or any money until we have a 600,000 SF manufucaturing facility with 1,600 worker and a nationwide network of franchisees ready to install the panels. By this point we will have invested hudreds of millions of dollars. Future customers sign a forward rental agreement. That means that they will be renting our system in the future. We make it abundantly clear that it will be a long time before they will have their panels. |
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February 27, 2007
cont.
So if you want to favorably compare Citizenre to Amway then I know for sure that this is just another barely legal pyramid scheme. And everyone should beware. Sorry if I sound irritated but I get angry when I feel that there is something shady going on, and people's passions and hopes are being preyed upon. So far the lack of details and deflective answers leads me to believe that this is very shady at best. That being said, I truly hope that I will stand corrected and you will prove me wrong. Solar energy is the answer to our current energy needs and it must be aggressively sold and marketed in order to make a real difference in the world, but not like this, not with an MLM scheme that really only benefits the few at the top. Enough said. I am done posting, thanks all for the opportunity to say my piece. |
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February 27, 2007
Rob, thanks for the response to my post on the 23rd.
Amway WAS a 6 billion dollar a year company, and if I recall correctly it was forced to make major changes to it's operations and marketing scheme by the Government a few years back due to questionable business practices, chiefly the MLM part, Now it is reorganized under a new name (Quixtar, I think) trying to hide the issues of the past. Even so, Amway may have made 6 billion dollars a year but 99.9% "distributors" did not see any of this money. In fact most lost money when you take into consideration the time involved and money spent on the cult-like rallies, marketing "tools" etc.! This is true with EVERY MLM company out there. In my opinion, MLM is a questionably legal marketing tool for mediocre, expensive or non-existent products or services that could not compete in the real world. |
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February 28, 2007
PS. Thanks for alerting me to that ad. The person wil be suspended today.
I get a google alert every morning that shows me all the ads that use our brand. Somehow I missed that one. Thanks for the heads up. Rob |
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February 28, 2007
I have already suspended many people who have placed ads like this, Mark. Usually once we contact them they are embarrassed that they did not know the rules and they fix their ads immediately. Much of this will be fixed after the new training is in place. We will clean this up. It will never be perfect.
Many people are not responsible citizens in the United States. That does not mean that the laws or the system is flawed. It just means that some people will always break rules. That is why we have prisons. With us, their punishment is that they will no longer be part of our system or participate in our success. I have stated several times that our mistake was in setting the bar too low as a barrier to entry. We are fixing that. Thanks, Rob |
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February 28, 2007
Rob,
A Google search for CitizenRE performed this morning produced the following citizenRe sponsored link heading: "Solar for Free" While you are putting the "training" in place, can't you do something about these fraudulent misrepresentations being made by your Sales Reps? |
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March 9, 2007
Rob,
Another purpose of prisons (to your point) is to house people who run shady businesses. Deceptive advertising is a crime. Fraud is a crime, and advertising a product for less than the cost of production is a crime. Engaging in futures contracts without disclosure of risks is a crime. We all hope CR is following the law; while the best evidence is that it is flaunting the law, and encouraging/rewarding those who flaunt the law on its behalf. You say you suspend bad advertisers, but do you remove their customers from your advertised number as well? ...Thought not. Ben |
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March 9, 2007
There does exist the domain site citizenresucks.com for sale on sedo.com... i strongly urge those in the industry to purchase this domain as it is not owned by the company and should remain in the hands of the public for advocacy reasons. Many reputable companies stand to lose much from citizenre and citizenresucks.com would be a powerful way to get out the truth about the comany... just check walmartsucks.com to see what i mean
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March 13, 2007
Ted Turner's company, DT Solar offers leases. Is Ted scamming us, too?
http://www.dtsolar.com/solar/delivery/financing.asp |
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March 16, 2007
1 trillion dollars go to the war on terror which arguably will in the long run only breed more terrorists then ever before. How many homes would that convert to solar?
"It has become appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity" -Albert Einstein |
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March 18, 2007
To Jim,
Leasing (ie as Ted Turner) is not a scam, Multi-level marketing without a product is a scam. There are already hundreds of financial services available for renewable energy. The challenges for RE are not the lack of creative financing, but the scarcity of uber-pure silicon, or some suitable substitute. If you want RE, then spend money with companies developing appropriate technology - if you get caught up in the "financing will fix it" rhetoric, you're likely to end up as Napoleonic land fill. Ben |
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March 19, 2007
After reading this entire post, I am confused. Shortage of silicon??? On Earth, silicon is the second most abundant element (after oxygen) in the crust, making up 25.7% of the crust by mass. Lack of technology??? The technology exists or there wouldn't be any of the hardware being discussed here. The motivation seems to to power, greed, and fear of the unknown. Where is the hard, reliable, and verifiable data? Where is the 3rd party, willing to present that data?? Anybody understand facts???
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March 20, 2007
Mr. Wolter, Your numbers are probably correct and the "hype" is certainly there. However please read here: http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=19410&hed= Silicon+Shortage%3A+End+In+Sight%3F . The "shortage" is a market based and I think greedy fabrication and does not really exist. Have you ever been turned away from a retail gasoline station because of the so called "shortage" of oil? I dare say not. They will sell you as much as you are willing to pay for at the fabricated price. I am not pro or con in regards to CitizenRe and I think some benefit will be realized even if its just getting more people involved.
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March 20, 2007
A few comments
Message 300: google this "prometheus institute silicon solar report 2006" and read the report. There is a shortage! How can a company with so much hype, bad press, over the top promises, mess of a gang of multilevel marketers, pronouncements such as "people were put on the earth to save it" (listen to the CitizenRe video)... ever get anyone to invest hundreds of millions of dollars.... actually I think billions will be needed. 100,000 solar systems 4 kW each $10,000 each (at an impossible $2.5/watt) equals about $1,000,000,000 |
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March 24, 2007
I understand that there is skepticism because we have yet to release our information, but to imply that we are "scam" is silly. And to in anyway question the integrity of Ed Begley Jr. is irresponsible. He is one of the most ethical men I have ever met. When all of the questions where flying around these blogs, he asked to see all of our confidential information. After signing an NDA, we showed him everything and he walked away more than impressed, as will others be after our press release.
Thanks, Rob |
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March 24, 2007
J McPeak:
We don't need venture capital. Our financing is coming from debt financing, which has much stricter standards. I am surprised you would use the example of Tesla Motors. I think they have a beautiful car, but you pay a huge amount of money to "join the Tesla Motor Club" and get your name on a waiting list for the car. I love the car and the concept, but if you question our model--which asks for no money from anyone--it seems strange that you would hold Tesla up as an example of doing it right. If you want to get on the waiting list, you pay $50,000. Copied from their website: Premium Buyer $50,000 reservation payment I would like the next available Tesla roadster slot. Current delivery estimate is June 2008. So you pay $50,000 and wait over a year. With us you pay nothing. |
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March 24, 2007
What does the overzealous entrepreneur do when venture won't fund? Go direct to consumer through MLM! When Ed Begley Jr's wife added her bit at the end of the video she might as well have said "Ed's been involved in some scams before, but this one is different! Extravagant claims, emotional appeals, little guy vs. the big interests, conspiracy theories... all dead giveaways. You too can be a millionaire! Think of the residuals!!! All free from the sun and feel good too!!! Calculations of residuals in a presentation should cause you to run. P.S. You cannot just screw a frame onto a roof and caulk it. Any mount not mechanically flashed will leak. It would be a day's work for one mechanic just to build the mounts.
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March 24, 2007
I'm a nobody with an above average interest in the environment and environmentalism. I offer my hard earned wisdom because I'm tired of seeing environmentalism get a black eye from false hopes and charlatans. All legitimate concerns start with engineering. Check out Tesla motors. They didn't try to sell anything. They BUILT THE CAR. I've was involved in solar thermal in the early 80's. I've been involved in MLM. I was a roofer for 10 years. I found the CR website and got excited for about an hour. This whole thing reeks. Why would not someone do the engineering and the financials and present a prototype and have venture fund it? What does it mean when venture won't fund it? It means the model is bad or the upfront work hasn't been done.
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March 26, 2007
For those of us who have been following this issue I say, another month, still nothing. It's getting to be a monthly cycle. We will make our announcement this month. We will make our announcement next month. No, not this month now, but next month. Bottom line, there are no financial backers, there will be no manufacturing plant.
Time to make another announcement, first installs will be postponed from early 2008 to...well....well to never. CitizenRe give up the ghost and let your people go free. |
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March 26, 2007
One other thing that occurs to me. There are a number of posts knocking Citizenre for signing up customers before they have a product. I pose two scenarios; Citizenre builds a plant, makes a warehouse of product, and then has to spend millions of dollars trying to advertise to a populations that is all ready inundated with advertising, - Or - Citezenre lines up customers via word of mouth while they are working towards product and then put the two together. I think having the customers lined up makes sense from a business stand point.
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March 26, 2007
It makes more sense to buy a system in the long run if you have the money or can get it. Citizenre says so to anyone clicking on 'reserve a system'. There are many people out there who won't make that commitment, or can't. If Citizenre can help this latter group they will help all of us via reduced emissions and more energy independence. If they can't pull it off then I don't see all the harm that others do. No one will have lost any money and many more people will be interested in solar through their efforts. I will continue installing systems for those who see the value in buying one, and I will continue signing up those who would like to go green on someone else's system.
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March 26, 2007
After reading this whole thread here is what I think, 'I' being a solar installer who is passionate about RE and who recently joined Citizenre.
Post 164 - Joel will or can not afford a system, he is risking nothing if he reserves a system. He reserved one. Post 189 - Tracy's glass is half full. I bet she has a good time in life. I'm impressed with Rob. Considering the number of people who read this vs. the number of people out there who don't and won't bother, Rob is spending some quality time to try and help some pretty set in their ways people to understand. cont. |
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March 26, 2007
And the justifications and explanations you present just make it look more like a "scam". You are offering only promises. And to my mind, obfuscations and excuses.
I'm ready to sign for a system on my house and rental units. I'm ready to engage my attorney and accountant and look at investing in a franchise. What I won't do is "pre-sell" non-existent units to my family, friends and associates and then suffer the loss of their trust and good will when I can't deliver. Please, prove me wrong. Embarrass me publicly when you roll back the curtain and show the world the big plan. I couldn't care less. What I care about is the clean green sustainable future we all deserve. |
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March 26, 2007
I once got involved with a concern selling franchises re: The Future of Energy! I went and saw the bigwigs give the presentation to 30,000 people. About 6 months later I called them. One of the principles answered! He kept me on the line and man he sounded desperate. What was the result of that fiasco? Many good people out ten's of thousands of dollars, former bigwigs on the run from investigations and lawsuits, and a whole crop of inventor / entrepreneurs soured. Not me thankfully, just many ten's of hours wasted. Except for the lesson learned, of whence comes this wisdom and desire to squelch a repeat.
If this is legit and you're a foot soldier out spreading the gospel one convert at a time, more power to you. But why? Why are you doing it this way? It doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right. |
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March 26, 2007
Their stated plan is to reinvest the profits down, building a more and more attainable product. I think they'll have the first functional, desirable and eventually affordable electric car. First comes product, then comes profit, then comes mass market. I use them as an example because it's the opposite of what you are doing.
I'm having a real hard time figuring the rub on your deal. You're not asking for any money, so what's the risk? I really does look good on the surface, but when I did more research, it unraveled. I won't re-state all the points made above and on other boards and blogs. The signs point to something illegitimate, and my intuition points that way too. Like I said I'm a nobody and if you are taking the time to respond to gnat bites, that's a flag. |
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March 26, 2007
I admit these are provocative statements. More to follow. If this seems harsh, so be it. The stakes are high. The bigger the claim the more scrutiny you should withstand. Getting strung along or being deceived and then crushed is a devastating experience, one that can sour a person or a product or a movement for a lifetime.
True, debt financing is stricter but that's not the point I'm making. Banks won't loan if the model is bad. As far as Mr. Begley's reputation, he is a big boy in the media and should expect scrutiny if he sticks his neck out. The statement about the video was the gut reaction I had and I wanted to covey that reaction in a visceral way. When I look at Tesla I see guys who built the product first and then sold it. |
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April 10, 2007
I have not seen this issue addressed by any of the comments, but it is a huge one. Even though Citizenre doesn't charge money upfront, they do seem to require a contractual commitment upfront w/o guaranteed product in place. As noted elsewhere, it is like buying a condo before it's built -- except in this case, the builder has never built a project before, and the renter is apparently required to make a commitment sight unseen.
Anyone from Citizenre care to respond? Also, why has the Citizenre web site had no press releases since 2/12/07? |
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April 10, 2007
I considered signing up for Renu in January, but didn't because of their Forward Rental Agreement, which appears to obligate the renter to obtain service (par. 7; signature page) after the site visit while releasing Citizenre from obligation to provide service at their discretion (par. 2.6). While the FRA is apparently contingent upon the results of the site visit (par. 2), the FRA is not entirely clear, e.g., what happens if the customer does not approve the engineering design for a suitable site (2.1.iii).
[continued] |
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April 10, 2007
And, even though demand is astronomical, costs have remained extremely high.
This leads me to strongly believe that those presently in control of manufacturing the components and materials such as silicon(?SP) are owned or in some other way made ineffective by the present energy cartel. If there is a scam here, those I suspect are those who have been at the top of the solar industry the longest time. I suspect they are either direct participants in this scam or are remaining quiet on the topic of the present energy cartel's effort to prevent this technology from being used on a meaningful scale. I welcome a new player to this field which has been idle for far too long. And, for their personal safety, I hope those at Citizenre have pull within the present energy cartel. Good luck Citizenre! |
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April 10, 2007
The monitary and power implications of any meaningful level of change from "conventional" power sources to solar power have implications of unimaginable magnitude.
The current energy cartel would spend billions of dollars to protect its income. That cartel would therefore, without any doubt, hire people with high powered credentials to discredit those with a plan to perpetuate alternative energy sources at meaningful levels. Battering Citizenre on a public forum is just what you would expect to see. In the grand scheme of things the present solar industry is meaningless. It appears most of the technology has been around for decades yet little or nothing has been done to perpetuate its use at reasonable levels. |
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April 11, 2007
Man, I wish I had high powered credentials (and salary). Any cartel lurkers want to hire me? I think it's a bit more mundane, a conspiracy of the ordinary. Conventional energy is cheap because (100 trillion equivalent?) dollars has been spent over the last century. My grandfather was a lineman and a good man, but he knoweth not what he do. Today we know better, but we have 100 years of inertia to be turned like the Titanic. The idea is not to "expose the grand conspiracy" like we can instantly fix the problem. The idea is for enough ordinary people to want it bad enough to force the change. Like rural people wanted, or rather were willing to accept the bargain in order to get electric water pumps. How do we get ordinary people to see the iceberg? We are offering the avoidance of a negative rather than the promise of a positive and that's a tough sell. Promising easy fixes and get rich quick schemes will only make the problem worse. The first rule is this - there is no easy answer.
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April 12, 2007
The present power structure is not working to create the necessary environment that will make possible large scale use of renewable energy sources because that would reduce and may well eventually eliminate one of its best holds on wealth, which is energy.
Therefore, in this effort of relieving the planet and its inhabitants from the high cost impact of fossil fuel consumption, it is necessary to become experts not only in energy engineering but also experts in government and economic forces. |
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April 12, 2007
But, when viewing the situation from the Macro Energy Supply Perspective where all costs are in focus and all contrived forces can be eliminated, it becomes obvious that renewable energy sources are already far more cost effective than fossil fuels.
As long as we continue to approach the problem of replacing fossil fuels at the Micro Energy Perspective, meaning what can I can do as a person or what you can do as a company director do to effect change, as long as we limit our thinking to this Micro perspective, change in energy sources will be very slow or imperceptable. Individuals and Corporations can only be effective or cost effective when an environment conducive for their effectiveness is first established by government |
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April 12, 2007
We can look at economics from a Micro Economics perspective or a Macro Economics perspective.
Likewise, we can also look at energy from a Micro Energy Supply Perspective or a Macro Energy Supply Perspective. All the conversation on this forum has been from a perspective of Micro Energy Supply Perspective, that is looking at the challenge or capacity for an individual or individual company to provide renewable energy at a competitive cost within the existing market place, within the existing environment. From this Micro Energy Supply Perspective it looks as though the cost effectiveness of fossil fuels is greater than the cost effectiveness of renewable energy sources. Unless there are changes in the present business environment, from a Micro Energy Supply Perspective, renewable energy source cost effectiveness will always appear to be just a little below the cost effectiveness of fossil fuels in most applications. |
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April 12, 2007
These organizations control the world wide money supply and therefore control the world wide economy at the Macro level.
And, because it will take a Macro approach to take the power from the hands of the present energy cartel, it appears the best chance we have to use renewable on a large scale rests with these organizations. I agree that there is no quick fix. But, unless the citizens of the world understand the reason we don't use renewable energy sources on a wide scale basis has nothing to do with feasibility or costs, unless people understand that the reason we use fossil fuels has more to do with ease of monopolization, we will wait forever for renewable energy sources to become the primary source of energy. That is unless the New World Order is benevolent and becomes stronger than nationalsim and the energy cartel which need each other for their survival. |
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April 12, 2007
No, the New World Order isn't conspiracy either.
The mechanisms have been in place and gaining strength and momentum and increasing their control of individual nations since before the end of World War II. This is so not primarily becasue there is a desire to have tremendous power in one groups hands but because nationalistic prejudices and fears and the impact of trade sanctions between countries are the cause of economic instability and world war. These organizations aren't stealing control from individual nations. Quite the contrary. The leaders of individual nations, including our presidents and congress are voluntarily increasing the role of these organizations. The Federal Reserve and central banks of other nations, WTO, IMF, World Bank and other similar organizations are very real and are growing in strength. You can give credit for the longest period of economic growth to the foundation of these organizations, not Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton. |
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April 12, 2007
At the Micro level it looks as though the cost effectiveness of fossil fuels is greater than that of renewable fuels and that is why we continue to use fossil fuels.
However, from a Micro Energy Perspective, renewable energy sources will always be just a little below the cost of fossil fuels. But, at the Macro level, it becomes obvious that renewable energy sources are already far less expensive than renewable energy sources. As long as we continue to approach the problem of replacing fossil fuels at the micro energy perspective, meaning what can I can do as a person or what you can do as a company director do to effect change, as long as we limit our thinking to this Micro perspective, we can not effectively cause change. This is why the New World Order is gaining momentum. It approaches change from a Macro level in all its workings. |
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April 12, 2007
The next argument is that a nations government can not increase taxes on fossil fuel based energy without harming that nations competativeness in the world market place in the short term.
But, unless the citizens of the world realize The PRIMARY REASON fossil fuels remain the source of energy is that those in power prefer this form of energy becasue it is easier to control the supply of fossil fuels than it is to control the supply of renewable energy sources, until people understand this, the change to renewable energy sources will be very slow or will NEVER occur. We can look at economics from a Micro Economics perspective or a Macro Economics perspective. Likewise, we can also look at energy from a Micro Energy Perspective or a Macro Energy Perspective. All the conversation on this forum has been from a perspective of Micro Energy Perspecive, that is looking at the capability for an individual or individual company to provide renewable energy at a competative cost. |
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April 12, 2007
A responsible government would give tax incentives to those using solar and to put additional taxes on fossil fuel consumers to pay the full cost of government and costs of future citizens of the world to clean up the disaster use of fossil fuels causes.
But, the government is controlled by POWER AND POWER IS ENERGY. |
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April 12, 2007
But, If you factored into the cost of fossil fuels the entire cost of the IRAQ war, the cost of human suffering, the cost of cleaning up the environment which may be incalculable and ultimate, you will find that solar energy is much cheaper than fossil fuels right now.
The potential for cost effective energy supply alternatives is not the problem. The problem is that ENERGY IS POWER. The problem is that the power rests with those who own the energy supply system we now have. The reason we have to wait generations until fossil fuels are replaced is that those who have the most power are least in favor of the change. We would still be riding horses if the decision wasn't made for the government to support the more expensive automobile by supporting a more expensive road system by taking money by force from people and spending it on roads. |
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April 12, 2007
It isn't about comspiracy.
It's about the drag placed on advance of the human species by those who like the present system because they profit most by leaving things the way they are. Are you suggesting that the owners of the oil reserves and other parts of the machinery that provide energy and thus have significant control over the assets of the world, are you suggesting that these people can't wait until their assets are devalued or useless so we can have clean air??????? If there had never been fossil fuels, the human race would have been using other forms of energy in as great or greater quantities using other forms of energy in abundance. You speak of costs of power as though we use fossil fuel because it is the least costly form of energy. |
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April 13, 2007
Thank you Gary Springer for voicing the truly big picture on the world's energy situation. I still cannot support Citizenre because of the many concerns about their business model expressed above, but at least
you have concisely expressed the major obstacle to alternative energy supplies that has been operating for years. I have often said that "when the power companies figure out a way to run a beam of sunlight through a meter, we will have all the solar power we can pay for. Teacher of Science |
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April 15, 2007
If this approch is so great,why is it not done in mature markets like Germany and Japan? This type of product is available in certain areas by reliable businesses and only works under certain parameters.Also wher is the equipment order for these people? There are no orders for any equipment to manufacture the cells according to Photon Magazine.
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April 17, 2007
You're getting the picture Charles.
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June 22, 2007
HEllo: I have been in the solar industry and alternative industry for 29 years. From what I have read; both sides of this argument have honest people on it. I applaud both sides for their interest in solar. However; it is just this type of intense excitment that always feeds this type of energy scam. I have almost been duped by this type of "fantastic deal" many times in the alternate energy industry. For the scam to be good it has to have honest people promoting it on the front end to work. All you sparkling young excited solar puppys make the dream seem real. I have been building photo systems for some time now. Addtionally we have pioneered energy service contracts which almost parralel the proposed lease agreements offered. However;From the numbers I am aware of this program would have to have an insane/angel billionare or a huge bank with no recourse with their stock holders to pull this off. Or some other energy saving devices involved. The finances and the logistics don't work in the real solar world that are claimed here. I wish they did. We do something similar for our customers but in our State we have some pretty good rebates and tax credit programs and its still a hard way to go. From what I see they don't have a means to utilize even these advantage to pull this off. Good luck I hope it works but at the moment I am placing my bets on the scam vote.I wish I did not have to say that. The only thing I could think would be that they are stacking "paper" with the intnet to borrow against this potential market they are pre-contracting- but the other signs point to scam. About a year ago you practically could not buy photocells because there was such a shortage of silicon. O..REally where do they plan to get all the Silly CON.
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June 25, 2007
I'd like to point out that CitizenRE is activily DISCOURAGING people from purchasing Solar power systems.
Here is a google ad: I think we can agree - this is not progress.
Benjamin Gatti |
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July 5, 2007
It is also highly probable that once State governments get involved, the company's claim to not be a Utility Provider will prove a false one. If you are METERING power, and charging a rate based on the meter, this makes you a utility provider in most states - it is not the PRODUCTION of the power which determines it, it is in fact the METERING which differentiates a business as a utilities provider. It does not matter what you call it, or how you attempt to legally describe yourself as something else. Given the company's instructions to resellers to not contact government officials or Utilities Commissioners, I think it is probable that they know that this is where their program will fall down should they actually attempt to launch.
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July 5, 2007
Last, there is the question of compensation. It is not nearly as good as it sounds. $100 when the audit is approved (that means, when they get around to it). $100 when the install occurs - if the install does not occur, you not only do not get the $100, you have to pay back the amount paid when the audit was approved. They suggest that 50% of houses will not qualify when it comes time to install (in one place - elsewhere they say, "any house with a southern exposure"). I think it may in fact be much higher than that. The other levels of compensation are not well defined, and are, I think, meant to suggest more than they would deliver, being dependent upon performance criteria that is ill-defined. For that compensation, you are expected to do quite a bit of work (I have no problem with work - it is the essential element upon which every business is built), and the work and expense are glossed over. An honest company has no need to imply that the work is minimal. And you do the same amount of work for each prospect, whether their house eventually qualifies or not. Contradiction, concealment, illogic, and incomplete plans add up to a bad smell. |
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July 5, 2007
In addition to the other concerns, there is the question of value. When power is reimbursed through net metering (and often it is not), and even when it is credited, it is credited at WHOLESALE rates, and used again at RETAIL rates. The presentation is disingenuous, as is the company's approach to instructing their resellers. They suggest careful wording, to IMPLY, without STATING, so they can give a false impression without stating absolutely that the impression is accurate. "No up front fees" is misleading. A deposit is considered an expense if you cannot use the money for 25 years. Their claims that people can easily upgrade when new technology arrives on the scene are also misleading - they neglect to mention the $500 cost each time (because your deposit is then forfeit). When you are already obtaining power in a situation which does not in fact save you money, an additional $500 every few years would make it totally unaffordable. They imply the technology changes will occur that often in an attempt to suggest that renting is better - if it DOES occur every few years, you will PAY every few years for an upgrade. |
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July 5, 2007
What I have to ask is, when no facility is even in the preliminary stages (there would be publicly available news if there were), and when all of the "innovations" of the program are purely theoretical, and based on presumption rather than fact, where is the genuine potential for any outcome other than failure? Each question asked is answered by evasion, or by answers which only complicate the picture - for example, in answer to the 1/2 day install scheduling, Mr Willis claimed that there were ways to reduce install time. He suggested lifts as being one solution. Lifts are expensive. "Mom and Pop" franchises cannot afford to either purchase them, or to rent them ($200 per day). The cost of that alone, would make the entire install process as outlined completely unsustainable. And, since no facility is in progress at any level that would result in production within the next three to five years, why does the company continue to promote this as being just around the corner? |
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July 5, 2007
I am approaching this strictly from a standpoint of having reviewed countless internet marketing and MLM scams and near-scams. CitizenRe makes me uneasy - VERY MUCH so. Because what they say cannot be supported by good business sense. The only thing I have yet to figure out, is where they are actually profiting from it. It is certain that no one else at this point is profiting, and in fact, it is costing people in ways they minimize (paper, stamps, ink, publishing, etc). We have an alternative energy facility being built near our town. We have heard buzz about it for 4 years now. It took that long to get through the committees and approval processes. IF there were a facility being built for CR, it would have hit the news - it MUST pass the approval committees, and to do so it must be open for public debate. It takes several years to get a manufacturing facility approved in most areas - 1-2 years AT LEAST. From this, we can conclude, that nothing is anywhere NEAR groundbreaking, much less actually producing anything. |
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July 7, 2007
No, the facility isn't built yet, but will be started soon, as soon as all the planning, permitting, etc. is completed. At that time you (and we) will know a lot more in detail about what Citizenre is and what plans we have. The reason we are not to contact utilities, etc. is that a lot of us really don't know enough to talk with them, which confuses the issue. Citizenre has people to contact utilities and states. Has it occured to you that all of us Ecopreneurs plus all of our customers (about 20,000 people right now) can be an enormous help convincing politicians to pass the right bills for sustainable energy? That's a lot more than previously could work toward the effort. We're all in this together to make this country (and the world) a better place! |
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July 7, 2007
By the way, using MLM makes very good business sense, both for Citizenre and for us Ecopreneurs. Citizenre gets access to thousands of people who we know. Our customers even get referral discounts, so they find customers. The Ecopreurs don't have to spend a penny to be part of this. I personally have links on my personal website and blog and in my email signature. Beyond that I've bought a stack of business cards which are easy to hand out. The only required expense is envelopes, paper and stamps. There is no initiation fee, no monthly product to buy. We can sit back and let customers come to us, or we can be more active, and spend whatever we feel is appropriate. Some have bought banners, T-shirts and booths at shows. This will easily be covered with the advance. The advertising you quote is NOT official Citizenre text, and is not appropriate. We do not discourage people from buying. I tell them if they want to spend $20,000 to have it now, that's fine with me. I've been telling some businesses and non-profits about ways they can get panels now. Our goal is to get panels on roofs, and for many of us, earning compensation is secondary. That's pretty cheap marketing for Citizenre! |
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July 7, 2007
Hi Laura, You got some of it rig, but not all of it. Let me help with some more accurate information. The question of wholesale vs retail rates is a utility by utility issue. Some it's one, some it's the other from what I understand. The customer's deposit of $500 is a far cry from $20,000 that has to be financed! For that money, they can have the panels removed or moved once for free. David Gregg has said that after about 10 years, if panels are taken down for any reason, they will probably be replaced with whatever newer model the company is making at that time. He has interesting ideas about what to do with the old ones as well. The deposit will be returned with interest after the 25 years. Most ecopreneurs will be receiving a $30 advance when the contract is audited, which will be starting probably late summer. Then $120 on installation and $150 after 1 year, plus a percentage on customers' bills all 25 years. It actually adds up to a nice sum. |
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July 11, 2007
I'd also strongly question the validity of the "advance". First of all, if the panels are never installed, the advance has to be paid back. Second, there are no audits taking place, and if the advance is not due to BEGIN to be paid until they get 10,000 customers it is nowhere close - Their primary website lists over 18,000 customers, but there are only a little over 5600 FRAs returned. Looks like it is going to be a LONG time before any of that shows up, if it ever does. They do not PROMISE to pay that advance either... they say only that they "intend" to do so. They also state that it will be 10% of the IRA, BUT... they quote $30 in one place, but that is also misleading - they quote that based on the ENTIRE commission you CAN earn, but the actual payouts quoted for most distributors are just $200, not $300. Wow... $20... IF they ever get to that point, and IF you accumulate $100 in commissions (you must accumulate $100 before they pay out), and IF you don't have to pay it back... Oh yes, and IF it is a 25 year contract (1 year contracts have no IRA... NONE. they do not say what 5 year contracts get). And the numbers listed on their full compensation plan are $100 at audit and $100 at install, not the $150 you quote - that money is not available until you get into the second frame for compensation. There are a lot of suggestions to go ahead and spend this, or spend that (event funding, incentives to referrers, marketing materials, etc), because after all, the IRA will easily pay for it. But right now, there IS no IRA, there IS no advance, there is only AIR. I just don't feel real good about someone telling me to spend money on this or that because their "someday" promises will cover it! |
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July 11, 2007
Ummm... the facility will NOT be "started soon". Not if your definition of "soon" is any time within the next 2 years. Have you ever been in an area where a major facility was being built? Have you ever seen the kinds of politicking they have to do to get it approved? Have you ever been in on public debates and public meetings that are necessary to allow the facility to be approved? From the time they choose a site, to the time they actually get permission to BUILD there, is invariably 2 years or more - RARELY it can happen in a year, but only in an area where there is NO opposition. That process ALWAYS involves publicity. If it is open to public debate (and it must be), then there WOULD be publicity if the company had so much as chosen a site! If they have not done that, they are still YEARS away from groundbreaking! This is not speculation. This is the reality of the world we live in! Do people think that just because they are making solar panels that there will be no environmental concerns with the manufacturing facility? Operational standards for factories are on the rise. Every single manufacturing facility in the nation has opposition to it. There is always someone who does not want it in their back yard. We have a facility being built near here - and all the people who had to sign on the dotted line WANTED it to happen! It STILL took TWO YEARS to get it THIS FAR, and it still has another year or more before they can break ground. It is my belief that not only is there no facility, there never was one even planned. I believe that this company was formed for a different goal, and that funding and building a facility were never really part of the plan - only the illusion that there was. And how much did you spend on the business cards, how many packets have you mailed at a cost of approximately $2 each (two stamped envelopes, one stamped manila envelope, and several sheets of printed paper, all of which you pay for)? And how much time have you spent that you could have spent actually earning? |
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July 11, 2007
You are right that the net metering policies vary from company to company - but the fact of the matter is, purchasing wholesale, and selling retail is as GOOD as it gets - it is often worse. No business will buy retail, and sell retail, when they lose money in the bargain. If they meter energy going INTO the system at the house, and then return the SAME amount of energy, they lose, because of line loss. Power companies know this, they aren't stupid, this is their area of expertise. They also have to pay to maintain the metering equipment, the lines, and the delivery infrastructure. That costs. There is no way they'd ever offer any better than wholesale purchase and retail sale... Anyone who thinks they should is deluding themselves, and has no concept of business realities. The whole CR plan does not make business sense. Either for the supplier, or for the customer. There is no way I'd pay full price for power I do not use, in the hopes that my electric company might credit me for part of what I did not use. |
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July 11, 2007
Any advertising I quoted was directly from the CR website. I think we have two separate issues here: Encouraging solar is a separate issue from encouraging CitizenRe. Evangelism where CR is concerned is inappropriate. It would be like concluding that computers are good so Microsoft is the best company that ever existed. Two separate issues. I've noticed that as of the last three months, the company is no longer talking at all - only the distributors. Why is that, I wonder? If there were anything real, they'd still be talking. Also, CR says that deposits may be higher than $500 - they continue to quote that $500 number, but in fact most deposits WILL be higher - and they say you lose your deposit if your contract is voided, and quote $500 as the cost of that, but in fact, you could lose more. That deposit is always minimized, but the very target market they are after doesn't have $500 to $1000 sitting around to lose either. We are in a HIGHLY mobile society, even homeowners move on average every three years. For a service that will cost you more for energy, and which will cost you each time you move, or each time a major unforseen circumstance hits, I think the real cost could be several times the cost of current electrical rates in some areas, when spread out over time. Fine if you want to pay it, but since they are promoting this as a cost savings to a target market to whom that is important, and it really isn't a savings, it is misleading. The more math you do, the worse it looks. |
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July 26, 2007
On a similar topic, I have taken an introduction to PV from Solar Energy International in Carbondale,CO I live in WA state (Seattle) and would very much like to stay in this state and become a solar technician/installer/system designer. If anybody knows any good sources for finding jobs/training in this emerging field--could you please email me at geoffmcbride@comcast.net I enjoy this discussion and really hope citzenre is viable and for real. It seems crazy that they would go to all this effort to scam people or for any other reason than to do what they are saying they want to do. The person who claimed way above in this thread that they are going after people's security deposits--that claim seem totally preposterous to me. At that point--someone is actually coming to your house and designing a system to meet your energy needs. That is the point you give up your security deposit. Don't you think they'd try to get money a little earlier in the game if this was one grand scam? I do! Maybe they all work for godaddy.com and are trying to sell more domain names like www.iwentsolar.com Now that would be a solid business model for godaddy |
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July 26, 2007
So here it is, July 26th--and what is going on now? I just stumbled upon citizenre last Thursday. I love this rent based model--I joined as an ecroprenuer--and I would love to promote this. To be honest, the money is secondary to me--and that is why I personally believe they are networking the business this way. I've had experiece with MLM scams in the past--and this one made me quesy too until I read enough to ease my initial fear. Still, the lack of transperancy concerns me greatly. Now that I'm doing some research--I'm finding most of the discussion started in February of this year--and now it's July--and I don't see anything about a press release etc for the financers of the project and/or a construction time frame. I'm sort of in the middle on this thing. I'm a cautious person by nature--but I also understand this model is very disruptive--and there will be people no matter what that won't like it. With that said, I don't understand all the secrecy. The claim that they don't want their competitors to jump them is starting to mean little. Who are the investors? Where is the site build? When will it REALLY open? In addition, they should really give an example financial model of how this is going to work for the company. Tax credits have been mentioned--but Mr. Wills has said those are likely to go away and the model doesn't depend on them? How do they support a network of "franchises" that meet with clients, design systems, install, permit, contract, repair etc? The operations budget alone has got to be enormous. I'm basically willing to take a leap of faith here--and the money is secondary to seeing massive amounts of people convert to solar quickly. I'm just having a hard time seeing the financial model with nothing to really go on. I guess the one thing keeping me on board is they aren't charging me for that leap of faith!
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July 31, 2007
Geoff, how would you respond to the complaint that citizenre is activily discouraging the purchase of clean, green energy - as in this google ad:
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August 5, 2007
Ben, Disclosure: IDS Powur of Citizenre
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August 10, 2007
Jeff, You are very knowledgeable about the Solar Energy industry. Answer one question for me: How am I going to get Solar energy for my home? I, like 70 Million other Americans, make under $70K a year, and can not afford to spend $30,000 on a system. The Solar industry can't lose my business; it never had it. Right now, I'm in line to get my system, that's all. If CitizenRe delivers, great! If not, doesn't someone else have too? I will never have $30,000 to spend on a solar system. Never. Are there unanswered questions? Yes. Is the roll out going to miss some deadlines? Probably. Who cares? We have to take a stand! By We, I mean the 98% of us who will never be able to afford a solar system. Some people act when they see the light, others when they feel the heat. Jeff, I'm afraid you are the later. Use your experience and knowledge to tell me how CitizenRe can work, not how it won't. Kenny Flamer, Independent Ecoprenuer
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August 22, 2007
Howdy Dr. George, I have copied what Rob Styler wrote in our internal Forums. Peace, Frank Knight Here is his post: Some people (ie Richard George) have posted critiques of our press release claiming that we will not be able to deliver because of the stock market, etc. At first, we were planning to spend the time with Brown Rudnick and our other partners to refute all of those concerns, but upon reflection we decided that this would just take more time and could easily turn into a waste of "no you can't," "YES, we can." |
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August 22, 2007
Yesterday, Citizenre released a press release announcing their “financing team” that will help them raise funding. Citizenre does not have any funding. You don't make this announcement if you have already closed financing. If you have funding, this is not news.
My analysis from six months ago that Citizenre is a highly unethical attempt to prove that there is sufficient demand (e.g. FRAs) to justify financing remains valid. Unfortunately, Citizenre's timing is lousy and they are extemely vulnerable because they tried to sell first and only after the succeeded in selling, finance and build long-lead time infrastructure (PV and inverter manufacturing plant; thousands of installations dependent on equipment made in the plant). We are several weeks into the worst credit crunch since 1973 and possibly 1929/1930. Lending has largely stoped - particularly for sub-prime and alt-a mortgages, jumbo mortgages, asset-backed securities, junk bonds, commercial paper, M&A takeovers, and pretty much all lending below AA or AAA. Major banks and investment banks have several hundred billion worth of loans made in the last couple of months (mostly for M&A deals and asset securitization deals) that they are unable to sell to investors without taking major losses. Everyone is scared and pulling back right now. For the little bit of lending that is available, credit spreads have increased by several hundred basis points. This means that if you were expecting a 5% interest rate in July, you may be paying 7% or 7.5% in August if you can still get the loan. Any assumptions about financing that are more than two weeks old have to be revisited. A month ago, GE Money was willing to finance PV systems for single family homes at rates between 7.5% and 14+%, but wanted 5 to 7 year terms. However, even then, they were more interested in commercial PV loans than residential loans. GE is still trying to value the collateral value of home PV systems - there are a lot of technical challenges and costs associated with removing PV systems and a used system may only have value for the first five years. For Citizenre, they have the assumption that they can essentially give low interest, no documentation, 25 year loans to their customers (a lender's view of the FRA cashflows). This is essentially a sub-prime, unsecured loan, and any asset-backed security based on a pool of these FRAs would be extremely hard to value right now. The default rate on FRA's is unknown. Likewise, the cancellation rate and the effective duration of the FRA stream (e.g. how long the average customer has the system on their roof given the easy cancellation terms) are also unknown. Right now, investors do not trust the investment bank valuations of asset-backed securities because 1) there is really no liquid market for these, 2) everything is marked-to-model (where the model is an investment bank spreadsheet) based on investment bank assumptions that may be questionable and overly optimistic, 3) there are major conflicts of interest by the rating agencies and investment banks, and 4) there has been way too much fraud in this space (as much as 50% of all sub-prime loans may have been tainted by frauds committed by one or more of the parties involved - the borrower, the broker, the originator, the rating agency, the investment bank, the appraiser). If you change the assumptions, Citizenre's model will break down. There are four major vulnerabilities to Citizenre in this credit crunch: a) Customer Credit Worthiness Risk: Since no customers have completed credit checks, we don't know what percentage of them have prime credit. A significant portion of the 19,700+ customers may not have acceptable credit scores and their FRAs may not be financeable. b) Interest Rate Risk: If Citizenre has to pay higher interest rates, their margins will decrease, making the service uneconomic for them to offer in some locations. This means that they either a) have to raise the rates they charge (which could make the KWH cost of electricity higher for their customers than they pay their utilities) and/or b) have to exit certain markets - particularly those with low interest rates. Again, a large percentage of customers could be lost if entire states have to be abandoned or if Citizenre is forced to change the rates promised. c) Geographic Risk: Lenders may avoid investing in asset-backed security loans from certain regions that are particularly hard hit by real estate mortgage foreclosures. 50% of the sub-prime mortgages in the past three years were issued in California and Florida. Unfortunately, California is the most attractive solar market in the country (~80% of the US solar market). d) Contract Language Risk: Lenders may object to certain terms in the FRA contract and require changes. The financing term has the greatest impact on the economics of FRAs. If lenders require shorter terms (e.g. 5 to 7 years, instead of 25 years), Citizenre cannot offer FRAs at their current rates. Even if we assume that this deal was fundable in the second quarter of this year, today it is toxic and unfundable given the credit crunch. When one adds the other risks in the deal (execution, inexperienced management team, technology risks, manufacturing risks, MLM marketing scheme), it becomes even less likely to get funded. |
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September 2, 2007
There is definately a void of information around the status of Citizenre. Whenever this situation exists, speculation will thrive. The first question you have to answer for yourself before you can truly take a position on Citizenre is do you think they are authentic and ernest in what they are selling. Once you answer that, it will color every side of the argument. The power of the Citizenre program is that people want home solar. Moreover, people want to be a part of it. Throw in the idea of making money while doing it, and you have the perfect marketing scenario. We can speculate the short term success of Citizenre like we can predict a race in progress by watching the racers position on the course. If a racer is at the back of the pack mid race, that racers fate is pretty clear. However, predicting the long term success is a whole different story. If people want it to succeed and all involved refuse to take no for an answer, then the initiative cannot and will not be stopped. Everything discussed here in reference to Citizenre meeting deadlines can be debated on details and progress. However the ultimate success of the program will not depend on anything said here. If people want it, and refuse to be stopped, Citizenre will succeed. The only reason we are having this discussion is because Citizenre gave some timelines and figures. Perhaps those statements were premature. I don't have the direct knowledge to say so. But, the reality is that people want it. People are committed to the idea of solar powered homes. Based on the amount of people Citizenre has signed up already, people are committed to action as well. The key thing that I ask Mr. Wolfe to look at is who all of these people are who have signed up. Independant marketers and home-owners. Nobody who signed up for this program is doing it strictly for the money to be made. They are all environmentally minded people who want to make a difference. Why did they pick Citizenre? Very simple. It is the only game in town. It is the only place where the average Joe can actually take action. As for hurting the other established Solar businesses, I will share this with you all. This weekend we went to the Tampabay home show. For those who have never been to a homeshow, everyone you can imagine in the area has there products there. From corporate show booths to local businesses. After canvassing the entire convention center, I found 3 business that did solar. 2 of which did home solar and both specialized in hot water heating. Only 1 of them claimed to do home photovoltaic installations and that business told me and my wife that they were impractical and expensive and acutally quoted the figure of $100,000 for an installation. The representative went on to say that hot water was the only reasonable solar project they recommend. If you live in the Tampabay area, there are no choices for solar electric home installations. So, in Tampabay, there are no PV installers to be hurt by the Citizenre movement. For me personally, I would like more clarity on the progress of Citizenre as it happens. I have heard it said that the release of too much information could hurt the company strategically. I cannot speak to that statement because I simply do not know. However, at this point, I can see nothing negative about supporting or participating in Citizenre. If it does not come to fruition, so be it. I believe in the cause so, to me, that is enough. Besides, what else is there?
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September 5, 2007
Please read all the threads before you post comments like "I can see nothing negative about supporting or participating in Citizenre". Restating again, alternative energy has a long history scams, false starts and crushed dreams. Don't contribute to that part of the legacy. The Heated Debate Over Citizenre Citizenre: A House of Cards? Citizenre Introduces Home Solar PV Rental Program |
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September 19, 2007
Stephen, Your enthusiasm is commendable, I won't argue with the fact that CitizenRe's success would benefit everyone. However, as an outside, consider 3 points that will make the business challenging right now. 1) High demand and low supply for silicon = high prices => low margins for CitizenRe 2) Without government subsidies the solar business cannot yet function as a for-profit enterprise. Although subsidies look great now, if the economy slows as it very well may, that means less money in the coffers of states and that means spending cuts. Are record high oil prices sustainable with a shrinking US economy? The question is how long can you depend on the government to make a non-economic business viable? As you mention, Solar has been around a long time; subsidies have been pulled before. Existing rebate programs are burning through their budgets and will not last as they were intended. No doubt there is pressure on government to pour money into renewable energy, but right now you are fighting with lower-middle class folks being kicked out of their houses. Not a fight I'd like to be on the other side of. 3) Dr. Morgage Finance expert guy has a point. Regardless of the particulars of CitizenRe's business model - which I do not have - they are straightforward in the way they are effected by the credit problems this country - and indeed the world - is facing. CitizenRe borrows in the capital markets to pay for system installation and uses the income from selling power to cover their cost of financing. You don't get $700M from the bank for unsecured lending....and that type of financing is not cheap - I used to give it out. The credit markets are still in turmoil - the stock market rallied yesterday and today, but the bond market didn't really care. Thats the market CitizenRe cares about. Risk is being overpriced, and although it may be boring, it has a very real impact on the bottom line of anyone in a looking to profit from the spread of borrowing cheap and lending for more - which is the only way this business model makes any sense. Again - this is food for thought for anyone looking to invest their valuable time in this venture. Your time is yours, spend it as you like - but as an entreprenuer you well know that having proper information about your business is the key to knowing whether you should spend your time there or somewhere else. If you truly believe in Solar make sure you weigh all your options to make it happen. - Andrew |
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September 19, 2007
WANRING: I am about to open up a can of worms, but I don't care...and you shouldn't either. I preface this post by saying I just want people to open their minds a little bit. I am a CitizenRe Ecopreneur. I “Joined the Solution” on 3-16-07. I am proud to be part of the fastest growing CitizenRe team in the country. Hello to all my Cap City Solar people. I have been reading this thread since I first started looking into CitizenRe. There are some interesting posts on here to say the least. I have few things I would like to address: First, where are you Jeff Wolfe? I can’t find a post from you since 2-14-07. Where did you go buddy? You started this thing rolling and have since disappeared. Also, there is a rumor going around that you are putting together your own solar rental model? I find this interesting and would like to know whether it is true or not. I don't want anyone on my team spreading false info. Can you put an end to this rumor for me with a clear YES or NO? I hate gossip and this sounds pretty outlandish to me. Then again, this might be why you aren’t posting anymore. Either way, can you post a quick something for us? Second, CitizenRe corporate has been keeping a tight lid on things and that has been a source of stress within the Ecopreneur network. Some can't handle the stress, others can. To those who get involved with CitizenRe, as with any new business venture, take the time to determine what level of investment you are comfortable with. Create a plan of action and a budget and stick to it. I run a large service company in Austin, Texas that is pretty successful. We have been in a position several times where we had to play the risk/reward game and I can say this with confidence that I will take the risk/reward scenario with CitizenRe over some of the decisions we have had to make with our company any day. Being an Ecopreneur means running your own business and I don't know of any business you can run without some risk and investment. That's so obvious I can't believe I am even saying it. For the posters who are knocking the money we are investing, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT WE DO WITH OUR MONEY. Do you get it? It's not a subtle point I am trying to make. Furthermore, CitizenRe didn’t trick me into investing. It was a personal decision based on a lot of factors, two if which are my strong beliefs that our planet is being poisoned and our existing energy grid is operating beyond capacity. CitizenRe is not paying out any money to Ecopreneurs right now. It could be that way for another year or two. It is very hard to say, so fellow Ecopreneurs, don’t over extend yourself. This is a mistake that many a small business owner have made. As with any small business, you should plan to not turn a profit for the first two years and budget accordingly. Third, there are few things having to do with logistics and infrastructure that many of you posters are overlooking. Who says CitizenRe has to 'build' a factory? It wouldn't be too hard to find an existing location that is suitable for a production facility and with the absolute power of our political systems, it is also not a far stretch to think that the unveiling of the factory location will coincide with elections and that the powers that be are assisting in keeping things under wraps until they can both educate themselves about our model and capitalize on its release. Who wouldn’t want to be the one getting the credit for bringing the largest renewable energy factory in the US into their backyard? In fact, I would speculate that there is going to be an all-out war for who gets to take that credit. We are at what is arguably the most heightened state of Environmental Awareness in US History. Third –and-a-half, I would think that there are plenty of national companies out there that have the capacity to handle the franchising side of the business, installing the number of systems currently reserved, without any problem. Sure, they'll have to hire some engineers to handle the feasibility/site study, but if you go to your local community college website and try to get into a 'Certified Solar Installer' class, you will see that a) there are more and more of these classes being offered, and b) they fill up FAST. I know because I just tried to get into the classes not only in Austin - 4 locations (all full) but in San Antonio as well (same thing). My point being that the number of solar installers is increasing at an alarming rate. There will be no shortage of qualified people who are ready, willing and able to get the systems up and running. Fourth, who are all you people? What are you doing to help the environment? Do you actions (if any) cost you time and/or money in this arena? The way I see it, basically everything you can do to help the environment right now requires an investment of time and/or money. CitizenRe is asking for a time investment and whatever money you are willing to invest in the marketing of your business…nothing more. I get a kick out of all the posters on here who are WASTING their time beating CitizenRe down, and for what? How does that help the solar industry, or the environment? I have zero tolerance for people who only come to the table with a problem. How about coming to the table with a solution to a problem instead of all this negativity? It’s far too easy, and has become far too commonplace in today’s society, to point the finger and to break down rather than building up. Try rolling up your sleeves and creating something positive in your life. I think you will find it both rewarding and empowering. If CitizenRe isn't the solution, that's okay. Show me what the solution is and quit being a Debbie Downer. Fifth, what's all this BS about hurting the solar industry? You’re kidding right? Tell me that’s a joke!!! Are you talking about the industry that in the last forty years has, for all intents and purposes, been a complete and total failure? The same industry that has managed to bring its product to a WHOPPING fraction of a fraction of 1% of the total single family residences in the United States!!! Solar has been around for a long time folks. WAKE UP!!! There’s nowhere for it to go but up. If something smells here it's all the posts slamming us for making a concerted effort to do something that no one in history has been able to accomplish. SO WHAT IF WE FAIL AT BRINGING SOLAR TO THE MASSES!!! At the very least, David Gregg and Rob Styler are out there trying to find a way to do something great, to pull off something that has never been done before. Can you say that? And in a lot of ways CitizenRe has been a HUGE success. We have a list of over 20,000 people who are willing to not just say, “Yeah, I like solar power,” but to sign a Forward Rental Agreement Application which clearly states that they have every intention of moving forward with solar power for their home. What other company has ever even come close to pulling this off? Sixth, I saw something about our closing ratio being somewhere around 50% and how the numbers were up and down, some geographic areas being higher than others and there being no consistency. This is sales people. The next time you see a copier salesman come into your office ask him/her what their closing ratio is, or a car salesman, or the rep at the model home in your subdivision. They would KILL for a closing percentage anywhere over 25% GUARANTEED!!! We all know as Ecopreneurs that there are going to be customers that drop off and that we will lose some IRA dollars. So what? Once CitizenRe starts paying out, those ‘drop offs’ will simply be deducted from the new ones I add each month and I’ll move on. I’m not gonna end up having to pay CitizenRe back. And even if I did, THAT’S BUSINESS PEOPLE. I have had to give refunds before at my company. It happens to every company. Show me a company that doesn’t pay refunds and I’ll show you a crooked company. THAT is a fact. So quit painting Ecopreneurs into the role of victims and start seeing us and CitizenRe for what we are, visionary businesspeople working our tails off so YOU can have a better planet. Do I have to remind you that it’s your whiny butts we will ultimately be saving by taking so much stress off an already overworked energy grid? A simple thank you would be nice, maybe a pat on the back for all the work we are doing to make YOUR future a better place to live. Take a minute and read this alarming article that came out 9/18/07 (yesterday) in the Austin American Statesman about the state of the energy situation in Texas. http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/09/18/0918energy.html When Warren Buffet and Bill Gates get involved in electricity transmission it’s to make money. And that money is there for the taking because we DON’T HAVE ENOUGH ELECTRICITY. Texas rates are predicted to go up 24% in the next 12 months and these guys are jumping on the opportunity to capitalize on it. Our locked in rates for 25 years are starting to sound pretty good aren’t they? Oh, and don’t assume you have all the answers about how CitizenRe’s rates are negotiated with the utilites. In fact, I think I’ll assume you have no idea what you are talking about unless you have experience doing just that. To you posters that are corporate attorneys with utility litigation experience, enlighten us. Everyone else, quit talking about stuff you aren’t qualified to be ranting about. Stop assuming that someone who installs solar panels knows the first thing about this subject. And to “Dr. Mortgage and Finance Expert Guy”, you bore me. How can you pretend to know what you are talking about? Did you see the Stock Market yesterday? I think the Fed dropped the rate ½ a point? Also, you shouldn’t pretend to have any idea where CitizenRe’s margins are or what their business plan looks like. When you have a hard copy and can quote me something from their business plan and then debunk it, I will listen. Until then, stop speculating on your own assumptions. The fact that we are signing people up for 25 years doesn’t mean we are seeking 25 year financing for the systems. But you probably know that and posted it anyway. Your bias becomes obvious in the last line of your post where you write “MLM Scheme”. Tell me what part of this seems like a scheme to you. Is it the FREE Feasibility Study we will be doing on every home we have signed up? Is it the…well, why don’t you tell me. People hate MLMs for a reason and if you can define one of those reasons as it applies to CitizenRe, I will be happy to apologize for picking on you. I would sincerely like to hear what you have to say on this matter. As I see it, CitizenRe offers people a chance to get rewarded based solely on performance. I conduct a weekly meeting, a national phone call, sit in on a leadership call that has NOTHING to do with CitizenRe, but rather is to help build our personal achievement standards, I train, I support, I coach, I help until I can’t stay awake any longer and then I help some more. My reward for all this will be that I can say I had a dynamic impact on our society and that I contributed to leaving a legacy for my family to be proud of. Man, I get more and more fired up with every sentence. I am sure some of you will find areas in my post to argue. That’s okay. I welcome the banter. Please feel free to respond as you see fit and thanks for reading this far. |
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September 19, 2007
Dr Richard, Excellent commentary on the ABS market and why it matters to this debate - especially poignant 30 days ago. Rob Styler is quite inacurate when he talks about problems in the "stock market." The stock market problems were (and are) the public face of the implosion of structured credit. I left the MBS market earlier this year and have marveled at how quickly it unraveled and the extent to which spreads widened across all products. Although things have normalized a bit, you are on point in noting these developments will significantly impact CitizenRe's proposed financing endeavors. My question for you is this: Do you find the business model to be fundamentally flawed or is your concern specific to the management team of CitizenRe? It appears from your initial post that you have first hand experience with these folks. My expertise is the finance side of the securitization and managing of cashflow producing assets rather than the solar industry, but I have to say I do see how the two could work very well together. I am not sure securitization is the best source of financing for this type of endeavor (for many of the reasons you cite) but would appreciate your comments on the subject. If you prefer to contact me directly rather than bore people here with our discussion of the nuances of structured finance you can get me at schnageler@yahoo.com. I appreciate your response - Andrew a |
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September 20, 2007
Andrew, thanks for a civil response. I don't have much time right now but you will be very interested to watchthe following video. Click on the link and find the video on the right side entitled, " RSI Silicon wins Ignite Clean Energy Award". RSI has an interesting solution to the silicon problem and if you listen closely at the end of the video he talks a bout CitizenRe. It's a must see for the nay-sayers http://search.boston.com/local/Search.do?s.sm.query=rsi&s.dateRange=&s.si(simplesearchinput).sortBy=&s.tab=&x=0&y=0 |
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September 23, 2007
This reminds me a lot of what was done with David Lee and his magical power generators that are supposed to be 500% efficient: MLM , the scientists are all wrong, PhDs or other naysayers are biased eggheads, conspiracy by those that stand to lose, many appeals to emotion, etc. Yet NO delivery of the goods, ever. The sheer elaborateness of such business schemes is usually a surefire ringer for fraud - smoke and mirrors. Don't be surprised if some people end up in jail. For those considering joining up in any fashion, please be extremely careful. I've had friends get involved in seemingly legitimate MLM businesses and were questioned by the SEC about the same time the founders escaped to Mexico with millions. |
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September 25, 2007
I have had some limited experience with MLM's in the past. I must say the marketing and presentation of Citezenre is top notch. They do have a clean easy to understand message and mission. I think the prevailing concern is: Can an mlm ever truly compete with major corporations that have lobbyists and politicos in their corner? I think the situation is akin to the telecom deregulation. Many CLEC’s were able to sell contracts for service before they could not cost justify, therefore many of the Windstar’s and Teligent’s disappeared. Although Citezenre has addressed that with a pre-facility commitment contract, my concern is the technology will change or the competition will out fox them before they can legitimately roll out service. To do my part and coax the market in the direction of green I am considering becoming an associate of Citezenre. Would someone get in touch with me on their thoughts? Feel free to reference previous posts. ALSO:My company does a good job of tracking new projects that involve various alternatives to coal and gas power generation. Our focus is to showcase all forms of commercial construction and track the construction process during the bid stages. If you have information on projects going out for bid please drop me a line at: http://bidtool.net/post_new_project.aspx If you would like to advertise to the construction industry please visit us here: http://bidtool.net/advertise/freetrial/ If you would like a free company profile in our directory “My Construction Resource click here: http://www.myconstructionresource.net/profileUpdate.aspx If you are interested in finding projects to bid or need construction leads we are tracking almost 60,000 commercial construction projects: http://bidtool.net/freetrial/ Best regards, Nate Boe, Construction Resource Technology, Inc.One Oakbrook Terrace : : Suite 510Oakbrook Terrace : : IL : : 60181888-506-7613 ex. 8311
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September 28, 2007
Wow check out this news clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yNcZShPMTc Looks like Citizenre is not a house of cards after all... 10,000 Tons of silicon... Thanks alot of silicon! PS: To Laura above who said that a large factory cant be built in under 2 years and without publicity. Your just wrong, Im an Architect and I know for a fact that large structures can be built very fast and under the radar, have you ever heard of the term "private bid". Im also assuming that the factory will be a run of the mill pre-fabricated metal building which can be erected very quickly. |
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September 28, 2007
I believe the enthusiasm comes from chasing money. The saving the world part is a rationalization. David Lee, exactly. What a bunch of gobbledygook. It’s always the same. The skeptics bring facts and well reasoned arguments. The dupes bring emotion, vague ideas and rationalizations. This is damaging because the reputation of the industry gets bruised and good will evaporates. For my part, I quit chasing a dream and went to school; now I install ground source heat pumps. We will get alternative energy on a national scale when we demand it from our government. I’m no financial or business expert and I don’t pretend to be. Just the school of hard knocks. I suspect this is a scam and I stand by my assessment. |
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September 30, 2007
I find it interesting that they claim to have 15 patents, yet if you search the patent database with anything close to *citizen* as an assignee, you get no hits. Not even any pending patents. Hmmmm
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September 30, 2007
Well I was just at "West Coast Green Bldg. Expo" last week in San Francisco, and discovered there's another company already renting & installing solar power systems, based in San Francisco. The big difference between Sun Run and Citizenre is that Sun Run is already installing systems all over Northern California, and Citizenre is still making promises and excuses for delays. If you are in Northern Cal, check out www.sunrunhome.com |
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October 12, 2007
I attended a county fair in which I came across a Citizenre rep who explained the program briefly and stated that by signing up at the fair, it would put me on the list to be in-line to receive a solar system and contracted rate for future electricity. I signed a "forward rental agreement application". I am now trying to do as much research on the program and it's not the MLM issues that bothers me, it's the fact that they don't have a product or even factory yet. It seems that they are way off on their delivery goals. At this point, I don't want to get into a rental "promise" for a product that I may not receive for two years. Does anyone know how can I withdraw my application for the "forward rental agreement"?
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October 13, 2007
Amazing,
A whole year has gone by since I first heard of this deal, and still, nothing, simply amazing. Funny, but with all the new nano solar breakthroughs, and lower costs, I doubt anyone will be interested in Citizenre by the time they get their show on the road. |
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November 7, 2007
Patches. Wow.
Meanwhile, where's the PV plant? Whatever (minimal, highly skeptical) hope I ever had for CitizenRe to be legit has long since evaporated. |
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November 7, 2007
I have navigated thru these postings and still found myself unsure of the credibility of Citizenre and Rob Styler, in particular. This really does seem like a wonderful idea albeit without substance. I just found another link via google, that, unfortunately has pushed me over the proverbial fence:
www.patchesforlife.com Apparently our friend Rob is indeed out there selling snake oil or has abandoned his commitment to renewable energy for more noble causes. |
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November 8, 2007
Continued from previous post:
The gist of Berkeley's plan: Rather than follow the typical path of a homeowner using a home equity loan to finance an array (and still having to pay it off if the owner sells the house) the municipality finances the system and assesses the homeowner a tax to pay back the city. The tax stays with the house, so if the owner sells, the new owner picks up the tax until the system is paid for. This is key. Equally important is that the assessed tax will be lower than the repayment of a home equity loan as the city can get better financing than an individual can. For a $15k system, the Berkley mayor's staff estimates the tax assessment each year to be around $1300 or just under $109 per month. Given that the array will lower the electrical bill significantly, the homeowner might only be paying an additional $40 to $50 a month in utilities. I would expect that the tax is also a write-off, further reducing the actual cost expense to the homeowner. |
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November 8, 2007
I signed up for Citizenre as a customer several months ago and as an "ecopreneur". I sincerely hope Citizenre can do what they say they will. In the meantime...
I saw some truly great news today about the City of Berkeley effectively accomplishing the part of Citizenre's business plan that we all wish for, namely getting panels onto vast numbers of rooftops, in an affordable manner. This plan could be carried out by any municipality, effectively bringing solar to the masses, including me. As excited as I am about solar, I won't be able to put it on my house without an offer like Citizenre's or like that of the City of Berkeley. Here is a pretty detailed write-up: http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/2007/10/berkeley-to-fin.html |
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November 9, 2007
What does citizenre have to do with the city of Berkeley?
Nothing. How come after ever skeptical comment a new "ecopreneur" appears to post? Did I say ecopreneur? Oops, I meant to say alteregopreneur. Prediction: contrary comment to follow. |
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November 14, 2007
J McPeak - I wasn't sufficiently direct. I mention my connection to Citizenre simply as a disclaimer. As I said, I hope Citizenre succeeds, I really do. I'm just not holding my breath.
The point I was making is that municipalities can follow the example of the City of Berkeley to get solar onto many, many rooftops, right now. Berkeley's plan accomplishes what Citizenre plans to accomplish, but it does so right now - in Berkeley anyway. There is no reason for other municipalities not to follow suit. All that needs to happen is for people to educate their city councils or county commissioners about Berkeley's plan and to request that the same thing be done for them. |
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November 16, 2007
Thanks for the clarification. I'm still confused as to why you would post here.
"saw some truly great news today about the City of Berkeley effectively accomplishing the part of Citizenre's business plan that we all wish for, namely getting panels onto vast numbers of rooftops, in an affordable manner." This seems like more than a disclaimer. In fact it looks like a way to conflate two separate issues and plug Citizenre. If you are sincere, I sincerely apologize. As one who has felt the sting of these scams first hand, I feel driven to post here and confront every argument. You could have posted here http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=50423 |
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November 28, 2007
Independant eco's in most markets will not see installations until 2009 at the earliest.
Can't find anywhere the prospectus that a franchisor must have in order to sign up franchise's. Can't install a thing until you have the franchise to do so. if they have franchises signed up, do you think that those companies are going to just stand on WAIT, waiting on Citizenre to build a factory. The business model is great, however, the logistical set-up is very complex. until Citizenre lives up to their commitment to advance the 10% when the magical number of 10k was signed up, will have major credibility issues. With almost a year gone by w/o the "ANNOUNCEMENT" there is a major problem.....and probably has a lot to do with the start-up capital. With money, most all problems go away. another reason the 10% hasn't been paid, David Gregg doesn't want to pay out 500k if everything doesn't pan out. |
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December 19, 2007
In BP recent tv ads they tout the fact that they are spending 97 million on a solar plant in the state of Maryland. Could there be a connection?
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January 30, 2008
Could there be a connetion between BP Solar's Frederick plant expansion and citizenre? Please! BP is losing market share year after year and they finally wiped some of the oil out of their eyes to see it. I feel so sorry for all of these cr people who are wasting so much money on Google AdWords and other online ads. You've been had! |
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February 14, 2008
Christian - there is no connection between BP Solar and Citizenre. BP is a real company with real product. Citizenre remains vaporware. One year has passed since Jeff Wolfe and I raised our concerns about Citizenre. Every point we made then remains valid today (one year later). Citizenre still has no funding, no plant, no products, and no installation capability. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that they ever will given their complete failure to accomplish a single tangible financial or operational milestone during the past year. It really is a shame that so many gullible Citizenre independent reps continue wasting their money on Google adwords, conferences, and other marketing for an entity that has completely betrayed and lied to them and that has failed to deliver on its promises...
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February 21, 2008
What about this idea? Have a mortgage company that specializes in eco-loans. Call it Carbon Free Loans, Inc. or something. The investment (probably $50,000 to $100,000 depending on the house) would be rolled into a new mortgage at 5% or one percent below the borrower's qualifications, whichever is lower. The catch? The house would have to be a net energy producer of both electricity and gas, be sewage free (via composting toilets and greywater systems), and produce less than X amount of garbage (e.g. 64 gallons) a month. Also, the new monthly mortgage would absolutely have to represent no more than 29% of the borrower's gross income. The Berkeley idea sounds OK, but unless I'm misunderstanding it, you still pay extra for going green, essentially punishing the customer for going green. I'm philisophically against that. Besides, the industry won't take off until the "penalty" goes away. |
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February 24, 2008
I think this is a great way to make solar affordable go every home all over the globe. Just like we have in Satellite TV back in 1994 people were giving negative feedback and joking about the small pizza sizes dishes on peoples roofs. DirecTV has made everyone take notice.
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June 8, 2008
What we need to do is stop playing these stupid games with the big worldwide companies. Unless these huge companies,(Merchants of grain, Oil, and Communications) change the way they handle the worlds precious raw goods, we won't have time to see a bright future in consumerisum.
At least there is a man out there trying to catch the eye of the world by saying "I want to sustain the price of energy for your homes for the life of that house." "I want to do it by building the biggest, most badass solar plant ever." Yes this is a pyrimid scheme to make a couple dozen people filthy rich, any business savey person should understand this. It does however spread the word of NET METERING!!! People don't care unless there is money involved, so wave money in there face and you can eductate them. Education is the key in this game. To have a bunch of idiot representatives walking around talking about "net metering" is better than to have no one at all. This is a worldwide race. Everybit counts, even if it is the uneducated, dumb as dirt couch potatos. The idea of MASS production of panels is key. Energy production is the new weapon of the future. The cost of in-action is much greater than the cost of acting too late. |
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July 14, 2008
Amazing,
I remember researching this years ago, and they still haven't gotten anywhere, and there are still people promoting it? Amazing, with zero credibility after all the BS, how could anyone still be promoting this joke? X-Smoker.com |
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March 2, 2010
Is CitizenRE a going concern? The website is still up but I haven't seen any news updates in the last year.
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