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Bottom Line: Wind & Hydropower Can Work Together

By Carl Levesque
February 20, 2007   |   14 Comments

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14 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 14
February 21, 2007
In 50 years I hope the trucks and trains will run on Hydrogen. It can be produced when the wind is strong but the demand of electricity is low. The stored Hydrogen can be used as fuel in the vehicles or to produce electricity when the demand increases. To make this scenario effective we will need many more wind farms and cheaper fuel cells. I am estimating in the next 10 to 20 years the wind industry to be well developed and the fuel cell technology to become more cost efficient. The fuel cells have the fast response time needed in moments on less wind and high energy demand. I think that adding Hydrogen to the equation can create very stable system - Wind/Hydro/H2.
Comment
2 of 14
February 21, 2007
My understanding of hydro is that water speed must be maintained to secure turbine speed, even in low load circumstances. A trait of a 10% efficient device. I am not sure we have any wind power systems on line today large enough to take on the scenario of having a large impact on a hydro system, do we? Then, just how dependable are the wind systems in allowing a hydro system to relax. A sudden loss of wind is an immediate loss of input to the system, and even hydro could not respond fast enough to make up the difference if it had been sufficiently slowed, especially in today's paltry wind systems. With thousands more windmills, the loss of wind would be a 'traveling event' allowing other mills to compensate I suppose. Maybe we need to build a few more mills ... like one every half mile, forever. Now, in 50 years, pull the diesel fuel out of trucks and trains and run them on electricity. I think we are in trouble.
Comment
3 of 14
February 21, 2007
Thank you for your response. It fails to answer which choice would you make if the money could only be spent one way. 1000 MW's of wind or hydro?
Thank you for explaining that wind:
Keeping in mind the analogy concerning the variability of electricity demand, it is helpful to think of wind power as "negative demand" or "negative load."
On that same thought - how would you rate hydro from my region into the grid?
Which is more expensive over a 50-100 year period - which is more reliable - and which is more attractive to heavy power industries - when looking at the mix?
Comment
4 of 14
February 22, 2007
I think we need to do some math. There simply is not enough cash necessary to build enough wind mills to cover the energy lost when fossil fuels run out. I read an estimation, by Dr. Youngquist I believe, that if you covered every square inch of the North American continent with a single huge solar panel, we would get enough sun energy to replace present day fossil fuel energies. Of course we would then need heat and light for our houses, and a new way to grow food ... Now put that load on wind mills, You will need a bunch to say the least. There will be wind mills every where you look.

And while I am by no means a supporter of nuclear energy, it would take many wind mills to replace a typical nuclear plant. But I would bet the wind mills would be cheaper in many respects. But I have seen many wind installations who would not exist if not for government cash 'gifts'. We'll have to find a way for the windmills to pay their own freight if they are to be the answer.
Comment
5 of 14
February 22, 2007
A 1 gigawatt nuclear plant suddenly shutting down is more difficult situation to deal with than the wind stopping, and various windmills in a wind farm stopping one after the other. If such monolithic nuclear plants are considered worth the risk, the modular wind plants seem so much more forgiving and worth the risk.
Comment
6 of 14
February 22, 2007
Double Action

"Double double toil and trouble,
Fire burn and caldron bubble"
(Macbeth)

Wind and hydro, mix the brew,
Energy for me and you,
Add controls to set the blend,
Through the lines the mixture send,
Who cares from how it is produced,
What we need is steady juice,
Two together zip the taste,
Make this mix hard to replace,
Some may like it on the rocks,
Wind and hydro really socks,
Acting like a storage vase,
Hydro holds the charge in phase,
Buffering the windy surge,
Systematic power purge,
Wind and hydro go together,
Wean us from the carbon weather.

adrianakau@aol.com
Comment
7 of 14
February 23, 2007
Adrians poetry makes me think. We could use wind to elevate water when the wind is not needed, and store the wind energy in an elevated water state. Now all we have to do is get that terrible efficiency problem solved with hydro and it might work.

I know boss, too much stage time ... im' gettin' ...
Comment
8 of 14
February 23, 2007
And lets get this hydrogen facade out of the way. Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy producer. It takes energy to produce hydrogen, wind mills and solar panels are going to have trouble carrying our heat and light alone without exposing either one to transportation. No, we better not put all of our eggs into the wind and solar baskets, or we will find ourselves behind the eight ball real quick.

And nuclear? God, no, please. We are no where near competent enough as a race to handle such a dangerous element. We've proved that over and over.
Comment
9 of 14
February 23, 2007
Yes miles, and these subsides are only the ones we are 'allowed' to count. If you are looking to the US government for straight answers you're barking up the wrong tree. The money we spend on warfare in the middle east has nothing to do about how they treat their women, these dollars are not part of the subsides you speak. Even if we stopped spending every American nickel on oil and flashed it into windmills, that's not going to make wind any more predictable, or sustainable. That makes me grind my teeth too.

Then look at the site studies by wind mill installation scientists and you will find the vast majority of the American continent is not fit for mill installation due to low wind speeds. The cherries are being picked by the industry now ... bad press is not needed.

etal ...
Comment
10 of 14
February 23, 2007
Tim, do you not know that the fossil fuels we use today annually receive billion dollar subsidies to produce the oil?? It seems to me that if only equal subsidies were give to the various solar energy sources, they would produce the clean energy we must have to prevent our coastal cities from submersion in the near future. Agriculture will soon suffer from global warming. With the disappearing glaciers many major rivers will dry up, people all around the world are going to lack drinking water unless we can find a way to save more rainwater in rainy seasons.
Comment
11 of 14
February 25, 2007
Solar Chimney in Australia is an excellent example of combination of Solar and Wind Energy.

Similary Hydro and Wind energy combination make some sense.

Further I will say if possible we should consider the combination of Wind , Solar and Hydro Power.

There is tremendous scope for improvemrnt.

P.J.LAKHAPATE
plakhapate@rediffmail.com
Comment
12 of 14
February 25, 2007
As I know, the cost of Hydro Power Project is 4-5 crore per megawatt.

What is the price of 1-2 MW or 5 MW wind turbine cost ?

P.J.LAKHAPATE
plakhapate@rediffmail.com
Comment
13 of 14
March 7, 2007
The diversity of wind within a wind farm reduces the flucuations of power within the total. Having several wind farms in a region with different wind flows furthers this effect. Utilities have learned to react to sudden load increases or losses that occure without notice. A farmer turns on a 50hp pump. A factory shuts down a line that consumes a bunch of juice. Utilities deal with these issues daily. The changes in generation from a wind farm are no different. The fluctuations are just negative load.
Comment
14 of 14
March 14, 2007
I am puzzled by the high prices of wind turbines for residential use. Everyone knows that electric motors are dirt cheap, and part of that is because they are ubiquitous and are manufactured by the millions. But the other part of that is their simplicity - you know, a spool of copper wire on a metal core in essence. Now to my point - a wind turbine is nothing more than an electric motor working in reverse. Why are they apparently so expensive to produce when the technology is so similar? Now I know you can get into the costs of AC vs. DC motors and generators and control circuits etc. But even so I would point out that the cost of a DC generator in my car is not that expensive. Why don't I just put one of those on a pole in my back yard at perhaps a tenth of the cost? 'Maybe I'm missing something?
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Carl Levesque

View Carl Levesque's Profile
About: Carl is Editor & Publications Manager at the American Wind Energy Association, where has worked since 2006. At AWEA he oversees AWEA's online and print publicat... more »

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