Email This Story
Share This Story
Add to Bookmarks
Printer Friendly Version
27 Comments
Golden, Colorado [RenewableEnergyAccess.com] An experimental system that uses electricity from wind turbines to produce and store pure hydrogen successfully went online last week. Developed through a partnership between Xcel Energy and the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the project links two wind turbines to devices called electrolyzers -- which pass the wind-generated electricity through water to split the liquid into hydrogen and oxygen.
Add Your Comment
27 Reader Comments
Comment
2 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
The answers are here, you just have to look around and read a bit:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/ Yes, oxygen will be resold to defray costs if a market exists within an economically, i.e. at least break even, distance. Also look here for a company that makes the H2 generators. http://www.h2gen.com/ I'm not sure who supplied the equipment mentioned in this article. Haven't found that yet. Enjoy |
|
Comment
3 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
It has been proven that wind energy doesn't need backup generation until it's contribution to the grid approaches 20% but there are other ways around this. Spread out the wind farms over a large enough area to minimize the impact of poor wind conditions in one region. Also, solar goes hand in hand with wind intermittency because when it's not sunny it TENDS to be windy (weather system producing clouds, etc.) and vise versa. Back up this with geothermal, biogas, tidal, wave, and maybe some dirty power as it's being phased out and you have a secure, distributed power grid.
|
|
Comment
4 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
For the fuel cell, the combined efficiency is 48% using the best case scenario which I don't think is possible. This means you lose MORE THAN HALF of the energy trying to store it as hydrogen. Electrolyzers can be run at high pressure which cuts down on compression losses, but storing hydrogen is still troublesome with leakage and hydrogen embrittlement on metallic parts being big issues. All of these issues/inefficiencies greatly increases the cost of wind energy storage.
|
|
Comment
5 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
I'll quote some general values I've heard on efficiency for H2 energy:
Electrolysis is usually around 70% efficient but high-end electrolyzers can get around 80%. For a PEM Fuel cell, the BEST values for efficiency are close to 50% or maybe 60% if you're lucky. The hydrogen combustion engine would probably be half that at 30%. Both of these devices, especially the PEM fuel cell, would also have critical parts, like catylists, that would degrade over time and need to be replaced. |
|
Comment
6 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
I'm pleased to see progress being made to improve the value of wind energy in the production of electrical energy. It has always dismayed me to see that wind energy proponents never seemed to want to achnowledge the fact that for every MW of wind capacity installed, an equivalent amount of other capacity is needed to support it (wind generation) and therefore the cost accounting may not be entirely correct.
In reference to the current story, how will the oxygen produced during the electrolysis be accounted for. Since oxygen is a commercial product, is it to be valued as such in determinig the economics of the venture.? |
|
Comment
7 of 27 |
December 18, 2006
interesting..
extracting hydrogen by electrolysis, compressing it, storing and using it with generator/fuel-cell-inverter sounds like a good idea, but gestures a lot of inefficiencies on the way.. does anyone have a clue of the overall system efficiency..esp. the hydrogen storage system. would appreciated if someone can also share knowledge on the estimated installation-maintanance cost/MW for this hydrogen storage system Thanks. |
|
Comment
8 of 27 |
December 19, 2006
Cont'd-
Storage of hydrogen would be kept to a minimum as most would be used on demand to fuel a generator. The methodology is to react aluminum and water with sodium hydroxide. This is a thermochemical process of generating energy by the dissociation of water. Aluminum forms a thin layer of aluminum oxide on all exposed surfaces of the metal. This film gives aluminum its high corrosion resistance. The latent energy is stored in the aluminum during the smelting process. Large amounts of energy are stored in the aluminum. It is just being released. Aluminum is produced by corporations that buy electricity often at well under a penny per KWH making aluminum the largest untapped source of potential cheap power. Helping to clean up landfill sites is being responsible. Well over one million tons are still be landfilled in the US alone. Cheap contaminated aluminum work well. This process is environmentally friendly and should work well in concert with wind power. |
|
Comment
9 of 27 |
December 19, 2006
*Wind and solar are sometimes unreliable because the wind and weather is unreliable, unpredictable and intermittent. Put another way, seventy percent of the time, you need a more reliable energy source. Much of the time energy would be produced with solar and wind when it is not needed, and could end up wasted. The wind, for example, does not blow on demand. That's why wind farms must be backed up by conventional power plants to ensure that electricity will be available when needed.
One method showing great promise is the AnderMac process. It generates hydrogen fuel on-board or on-site, and on-demand, without the need of electricity or a compressor. Unlike wind and solar power, this process can work 24/7-year round. It can be a back-up system for the likes of wind power. Two major problems associated with hydrogen are resolved with this process namely, storage and transportation. |
|
Comment
10 of 27 |
December 19, 2006
I don't like the use of scarce water to create hydrogen.
|
|
Comment
11 of 27 |
December 19, 2006
Is it not possible to pump into and store hydrogen in underground rock formations similar to what is done with natural gas?
|
|
Comment
12 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
A good rebuttal to using H2 in this article:
http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_print.cfm?a_id=940 Time will tell. Lots of basic and applied research is underway by many different organizations worldwide. "Science for a changing world." http://www.usgs.gov/ |
|
Comment
13 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
Page 161 of Roy McAlister's book,'The Solar Hydrogen Civilization', makes it clear that hydrogen embrittlement is a myth, since tanks made in 1907 are still in use and still pass the regular tests. He explains that embrittlement can occur due to improper welding in pipeline joints where ionic or nascent particles are produced. This myth seems to have a life of its own for no reason.
|
|
Comment
14 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
This experimental wind-to-hydrogen system may have its bugs/imperfections, but I just love the concept, especially in remote off-grid regions with good wind resource. You take an inexpensive (yet somewhat unreliable) wind energy source and convert it to making liquid fuel, either good for transporting or time-phasing. I presume the posting about using up fresh water was tongue-in-cheek (I agree it's a red herring), especially if the hydrogen is used onsite in a closed-loop (there are always some losses, but it should be inconsequential in terms of volume of water). I applaud Xcel and NREL for taking the initiative on this idea.
|
|
Comment
15 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
12/18/2007 - It sounds like Canada is going to give this a go too. Since it's on an island, it would be interesting knowing more about their water source, i.e. fresh or salt water, etc. I think it's a 250kw plant but not sure about that.
"...Natural Resources Canada, is going to deploy the HEC (Hydrogen Engine Center) solution in their hydrogen/wind project at Ramea Island off the coast of Newfoundland." |
|
Comment
16 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
Ooops, that site is no longer there. Try the general site: http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/
and look around a bit. |
|
Comment
17 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
I'm hearing that with Global Warming the oceans will be filling up, not drying up?
Lots of basic research is underway to see how H2 behaves. For example, it tends to make metals brittle over time, hardly a useful trait. So, researchers are studying basic research issues before doing something like storing a bunch in underground storage areas, as is routinely done with natural gas. See below site for 166 ways to use H2 today, it's a start at least: http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/EducationCentre/EducationCentreExtern al/EduCentreDisplay/0,1741,FCImages,00.html?id=1&start=0 |
|
Comment
18 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
Comment 9
Just wondered where the scarce water might be since the oceans are almost dried up? |
|
Comment
19 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
The fresh water issue is a red herring.
Every H2 is mixed with an O from the atmosphere producing pure water which can be recaptured. I also seem to recall that electrolysis is more efficient at higher water temperatures; therefore, the waste heat can be captured in the water which is to become the recycled feedstock. Please do correct me if I have erred. |
|
Comment
20 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
On the face of it, it should be beneficial simply because you will be able to store energy in the form of hydrogen during the night when demand is low. I'd be interested to see what efficincies you will get. But i believe that such projects while very much needed, are leading people to believe that a technological solution will come along so we can continue to consume and consume and consume. Whereas i believe we need to cut our demand radically. Having said that the population has no appetite for the change needed.
|
|
Comment
21 of 27 |
December 20, 2006
In the long run, if this research by the NREL and XCEL is to be universally applicable, the issue of using ocean water in the electrolysis process would need to be addressed. There are only a finite number of places where there is an excess of fresh water. Even so, if the process is ever developed commercially using fresh water, it seems that it could be part of solving our energy-environmental-foreignrelations problems.
|
|
Comment
22 of 27 |
December 21, 2006
I'm trying to understand how renewable energy credits work, i.e. the details. Is it simply a donation to wind farms? Is there a tax benefit for individuals or corporations; or, is it strictly altruistic? Thanks.
|
|
Comment
23 of 27 |
December 21, 2006
The American Wind Energy Association confirms the comparison to Rhode Island and has a 2007 goal of increasing U.S wind power by 3,000-3,500 mw in 2007.
Click over and also look around at their June, 2007 conference in Los Angeles, on the Home page. http://www.awea.org/newsroom/releases/AWEA_third_quarter_market_report_102406.html |
|
Comment
24 of 27 |
December 21, 2006
Here is a another press release on the Xcel project.
Haven't verified the bit about 2006 and RI; so check it out yourself. '...Hollinger (HEC President) commented, "As one of the key components in the demonstration project, the HEC engine and generator technologies foster a reduction in fossil fuel usage to generate electric power, in turn reducing operating costs and green-house gas emissions." "Until recently, wind energy had to be used immediately," noted Richard Kelly (Xcel Chairman). "The Hydrogen Engine Center helps solve this problem by taking wind energy, which can now be converted and stored as hydrogen, through its engine technology to the electrical grid, ultimately powering homes and businesses." According to an October 2006 release by the American Wind Energy Association, the U.S. wind energy industry is on track to install a record 2,750 megawatts of capacity in 2006, which produces about as much electricity as used by the State of Rhode Island |
|
Comment
25 of 27 |
December 21, 2006
Looking at reported efficiencies above, the hydrogen approach, as a system will only recover about 40% of the energy supplied to it. Yet a fluid storage approach of either water or hydrolic fluid stored under pressure can yeild a system efficiency of around 80% with existing technology. The major drawback would be system size, but this is reduced as storage pressure is increased; and such systems could be regionally located to harvest electricity from several turbines.
|
|
Comment
26 of 27 |
December 26, 2006
I was watching to see if there would be any comments regarding my two postings (10, 11) regarding this method of producing energy (hydrogen). So far, no comments. Could we stimulated discussion on this? Your thoughts, pro and con, would be appreciated.
|
|
Comment
27 of 27 |
January 3, 2007
Hydrogen can be produced from any electrical force - it has little to do with renewable energy. If instead the rotation of wind turbines were used to store mechanical energy - such as lifting a weight, this energy can be used to provide electrical energy when wanted, very little conversion loss is experienced.
If large buoys are pulled below water to considerable depths, exactly the same pull can be obtained when they are allowed to rise and generate electricity as and when needed. By this means the energy captured by the rotating blades can be stored for use whenever wanted with very little loss. In shallow water many buoys can be used in series or parallel, either in pulling down or letting up. Having played with this idea for 20 years, it would be great is someone with influence would care to take interest. Dick Lucy richard@hamsterbaskets.co.uk |
Registered users, please make sure to Sign-In. We and others want to know your ideas and opinions.
If you are not yet Registered -- it's quick and easy. Just click below.
Thanks!
View image gallery (1)
Previous Article
1 of 27
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/12/xcel_and_nrel_u.html
for naming the H2 engine supplier:
www.hydrogenenginecenter.com