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Driving America Off Oil

By David Friedman
January 9, 2006   |   57 Comments

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"Government incentives must recognize the fact that hydrogen, electricity and even biofuels are not inherently clean-they are merely energy carriers that are only as clean as the process that produced them."

- David Friedman, RE Insider
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The information and views expressed in this article are those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on its Web site and other publications.

57 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 57
January 9, 2006
The fuel that meets the above requirements is hydrogen produced by wind power.

Hydrogen produced electrolytically from electricity produced by wind power has a cost of production of approximately $2.50 for an amount of hydrogen with the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline.

Existing automobiles can have their internal combustion engines retrofitted easily and inexpensively to run on hydrogen. We do not need to continue to provide gasoline for currently existing automobiles with internal combustion engines. They can run on hydrogen just fine.

The amount of energy available in the United States from wind power exceeds our courrent energy use from all sources by five or six times. There is plenty of room for economic growth and increased energy usage if wind power is developed sufficiently.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
2 of 57
January 9, 2006
The issue as I see it is that we need to displace the use of carbon based fuels from our economy, now, not later.

To accomplish this we need to take a very hard look at our existing technology that we can put in place today, not 10, 20 or 30 years in the future.

Fortunately we do have technology in production today that could displace carbon based fuels from our economy in very short order if we can develop the political will to do it.

In order to displace carbon based fuels from our economy, the replacement fuels must have a price very similar to the prices that we pay for carbon based fuels for the same energy content, and must be sufficiently abundant to supply all of our current energy needs and provide for economic growth as well.


Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
3 of 57
January 9, 2006
Hello,
The radical solution to energy and environment crisis was cnever easier.It is there since almst two decades.Starting the project this year, in 2010, the world would enjoy life without energy or environment tension, without cutting down emission or causing economic chaos.
Kindest regards.
E.M.El-Hammamy
emedln@yahoo.com
Comment
4 of 57
January 9, 2006
I think that David Friedman is generally on the right track but he is leaving out the "how" to get the job done. The American automotive industry has had many decades to get their act together but, in looking mainly to profit rather than to the development of economically viable transportation, they have been cutting the limb that supports them.

A band-aid approach is not good enough. There should be a complete overhaul in thinking about priorities and the number one priority should be fuel economy of the vehicle along with the introduction of new technology like the HICE on-board hydrogen device that adds hydrogen to diesel to boost burning efficiency, the use of Hythane, employment of the new silicone batteries for hybrids and electric cars and the reshaping of vehicles for fewer aerodynamic losses.

Let's get practical; let's get moving.

adrianakau@aol.com
Comment
5 of 57
January 10, 2006
just to cheer you all up .... can we really do much at the grass roots level ? .... Are we wasting our time discussing it ? ..... I don't know if the powers that be want to fix the problem .....

..... the multi $trillion transport/energy industries wants efficient cars as much as the medical industry wants a cure for the common cold, flu & cancer, ..... or the law enforcement/judicial system wants a world without crime ..... or the military-industrial complex wants a world without war .....

look at all the wasted opportunites over the decades do do something to improve the situation .... even if one of these ideas had merit, it could have been implemented .....
http://www.himacresearch.com/docs/energy.html


How bad will it get before more than a token effort is made to fix the problem ? .... who knows .... probably crisis point, and then it will be decades too late ....

...... Paradox
Comment
6 of 57
January 11, 2006
Also, remember, the cost of windpower is coming down. The equipment to produce hydrogen electrolytically is becoming more efficient as there is more demand for that equipment.

Essentially the cost of hydrogen produced electrolytically from electricity produced by windpower is coming down and the cost of gasoline is going up.

In the near future, hydrogen produced electrolytically from electricity produced by windpower will have a significant cost advantage over gasoline and diesel.

Michael Foster makes many more mistakes in his article but if I were to refute them all, I would be here all night.

I think that I have made my point.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
7 of 57
January 11, 2006
Can you imagine the benefit to our economy if the 100 million automobiles that we have on our roads today were converted to run on hydrogen generated electrolytically by electricity produced by windpower? We would no longer have to import oil. There would be no motivation to have wars over oil. The amount of pollution and greenhouse gases from automobiles would be dramatically reduced.

Michael Foster uses the cost of industrial hydrogen in tanks to compute a cost of hydrogen that is ridiculously high.

Hydrogen for motor vehicles has a cost of production of approximately $2.50 for an amount of hydrogen with the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline when that hydrogen is produced electrolytically with electricity produced by wind power. That is a cost comparable to the cost of gasoline today.

(continued)
Comment
8 of 57
January 11, 2006
Reply to Robert Foster and the article he cited at recovery by discovery:

The author of the article is Michael Foster. Michael Foster is a spiritual life coach, and like Lyn Harrison, has no expertise in the field. Like Lyn he makes his argument by making some false assumptions, and also uses factually incorrect data to bolster his argument.

For example Micheal Foster cites the expense of fuel cells ($200,000) as a reason that hydrogen fueled cars would be too expensive.

In fact, one of the great advantages of hydrogen is the ability of internal combustion engines to run very well on hydrogen. Internal combustion engines can be readily and inexpensively modofied to run on hydrogen instead of gasoline or diesel. We do not need to use $200,000 fuel cells in automobiles. We have over 100 million vehicles on the road which could be modified to run on hydrogen.

(continued)
Comment
9 of 57
January 11, 2006
That number of $2.50 per gallon includes the inefficiencies of the equipment currently available for electrolysis. With a larger market for that equipment, the money for engineering would be available to impove the efficiency and the cost would come down some more.

The cost of gasoline will continue to increase, the cost of wind power will continue to decrease. Currently the cost of gasoline and hydrogen generated by electrolysis are approximately equal, but over time the cost advantage of hydrogen generated by windpower will increase to the point where there will be a substantial cost advantage over gasoline or diesel.


These are just some samples of the problems with Lyn Harrison's article.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
10 of 57
January 11, 2006
Response to Bill Kreamer and the citation of Lyn Harrison's article Hydrogen Hijacked:

Lyn Harrison has no expertise in the field. She is a journalist with some public relations experience. She makes some false assumptions in her article, and makes use of some incorrect information to bolster her argument. If she had more expertise in the field, I do not think that she would have made those mistakes. Essentially, she does not know what she is talking about.

First she says that there are no economic advantages to hydrogen but cites no support for that statement.

In fact, hysrogen produced electrolytically from electricity produced by wind power has a cost of production of $2.50 for an amount of hydrogen with an energy content equal to one gallon of gasoline. That is comparable to the cost of gasoline today.

(continued)
Comment
11 of 57
January 11, 2006
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. - Confucius

The first single step as I see it in the journey to displace carbon based fuels from our economy is to make available a fuel substitute for gasoline and diesel fuel for the 100 million vehicles that we currently have on our roads.

To be effective the substitute fuel needs to be available at a price comparable to that of gasoline or diesel for the same energy content.

The substitute fuel must also be generated from a clean source that does not add carbon in any form to our atmosphere.


Also, gasoline and diesel internal combustin engines must be readily and inexpensively convertible to the substitute fuel and run as well or better than they did on gasoline or diesel.

That fuel substitute, as I see it, is hydrogen generated from electricity produced by wind power.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
12 of 57
January 11, 2006
To clear up some misconceptions about hydrogen that I have seen in the above debate:

1. Hydrogen is one of a number of means to store energy, it is not an energy source itself.
2. Wind power as a means of generating electricity is very affordable. Cost of production is approximately 5 cents per kilowatt hour. The capital costs are relatively low compared with other means of generating electricity.
3. Hydrogen prduced by electrolysis using electricity generated by wind power is an exceptionally clean way to generate electricity.
4. Hydrogen can be generated on site using electricity from the grid. You do not need a large hydrogen delivery infrastructure.
5. Existing gas stations can generate hydrogen on site with equipment that is currently available off the shelf, you do not need to build separate hydrogen fueling stations.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
13 of 57
January 11, 2006
I can understand the desire for a "clean" fuel, like hydrogen, but it can be dirty to make it and it loses energy and dollars when we try to use it. It would take a new source of energy that produced a great surplus of low cost energy to actually get there. See some of the challenges at http://recoverybydiscovery.com/hydrogen.htm. And, if you have any solutions, I would like to add them.

Sure, we have a lot of coal, but if we make coal into gasoline we will end the fossil fuel age for us a lot quicker. We have already passed peak oil in the US in the 70s even when we consider Alaska and off shore oil.

We are going to have to cut back to sustainable levels that we can grow our fuel and food and have enough clean water.
Comment
14 of 57
January 11, 2006
To address the grass roots and what can we do! Car manufacturers are going to make the vehicles the consumers want. Grass roots work need to focus on educating the public - an easy example (as I sit here looking at my lunch) - TRANS FATS. Consumers got wind of the problem with trans fats, started complaining, getting more information. Products started coming out that were 'free of trans fats' - and now even the FDA is labelling the amount of trans fats in foods. Its doable on the grass roots, consumer level. As a prius driver, I 'voted' with my money for more fuel efficient cars. I can't tell you how many people come up to me on a daily basis asking about hybrid cars and saying they wish they had bought one instead of their gas guzzler.

Educating on REDUCING energy usage is also critical - mass transit, energy efficiency for home/office, recycling. We have to hit both sides of the equation.
Comment
15 of 57
January 11, 2006
The big car manufactures are concerned just as we are. They have been developing new motors and new technologies. not only that but they are trying to work together in finding a perfect fuel .
I beleive that if we were smart, that we would not look for just one fuel. But that we should have multiple fuels. Why cant we have a car that runs on Hydrogen, Propane, LPG, NPG. Or vehicles that run on Gasoline, Ethinol, and Methinol. Or diesel and biodiesel, ect...The problem being that there is no Hydrogen fuel stations or proprietary process out there to fill up the vehicles and it takes GOVERMENT action and laws to bring these fuels out to market. There is no standards for nosels or fill up connections yet or how much can be transported at one time. If we build they will come.But how and where to build is just one of the problems. I know if I build a station and some thing went wrong and some body got hurt it would be the end of my... well you know what I mean now. I hope
Comment
16 of 57
January 11, 2006
Instead of waiting for one silver bullet solution, why don't we instead work on a variety of solutions that include biod, WVO, ethyl, H2, hybrids, electrics (using renewables on the grid) and others. there will be no single energy answer, there will be many and any other vision is shortsighted at best.

Using vegetable oil in diesel engines is not the same as biodiesel. Making biodiesel is totally different process. It comes from crops just the same as ethyl and other "gasahols." The crops that biod comes from include soy, rapeseed and palm.

Modifications are necessary to run a diesel engine on WVO but not to run it on Biod. The issue with WVO is that it does not have the right viscosity to run through the car's engine and fuel injectors. The engine must have a second tank installed and then hoses running from the collant system through that tank to use the waste heat from the circulating radiator fluid to heat up the WVO and make it more liquid-like.
Comment
17 of 57
January 11, 2006
Just to clear up a misconception or two that this poorly written and researched article will create:

The pollution issues with Biod are not as bad as this (terrible) article make out. Yes, it does contain one of the ingridients for smog, but it only works if other ingridients are present in sufficent quantities. Otherwise, it is relatively harmless. Biod definitely emits less CO2 than gas. Finally, diesel engines could easily be built with scrubbers to remove even these volatiole organic compunds (VOC) and indeed should be.

The real issue with biod and all crop-based fuels is that we don't have the farm land necessary to run all our transportation on them. While the concept of H2 produced from wind is a nice one as an energy source, it certainly is pie in the sky at this point. It's unaffordable and untenable as there is no infrastructure for the delivery of H2.
Comment
18 of 57
January 11, 2006
I think we're leaving out the very important social context in this discussion. certainly better technologies exist. should all resources be put into developing and implementing them?

why is it that we are looking for ways to continue this ridiculous addiction to car culture? why not return to looking at mass transit, better urban planning and localizing lifestyles? we always look at gettting bigger- expanding.

AND, what makes you think we have until 2025 to solve the 'problem'? is peak oil really still that taboo of a subject?
Comment
19 of 57
January 11, 2006
Waste oil from eating places has been proven to be a viable fuel for diesel vehicles. It needs to be process so that you end up with biodiesel. Biodiesel is a renewable engery source. Biodiesel has way less emissions that petro diesel, produces more power and better fuel economy. My grandfather remembers when ethyl was available at the pumps. Ethyl is a renewable energy source also. World speed records in various forms of racing have been set using some type of alcohol. I race radio controlled cars and methanol is around 1.20/gal (gotta add the taxes to it to figure pump price for auto use). Breweries could have a new line of business upping the production of alcohol.

If the big oil guys want to stay in the game, they need to switch to renewable energy. Oil is finite and there is and end to the money. With renewable energy there is no end.
Comment
20 of 57
January 11, 2006
Part 2: I predict G.M. and Ford will be filing for bankruptcy by the end of this decade. Chrysler just might survive, because they've been bought out by Daimler, who's messing around with concepts like the turbodiesel-powered Smart Car in Europe. With an 85-hp turbodiesel as one engine option, this little gem WORKS, yet why can't they introduce it here ?!! There are relatively few of them here in the U.S. -- with larger volume imports heavily constrained by government red tape on 'standards' for safety and emissions... Yet this turbo diesel, running on the new EPA-mandated sulfur-free diesel fuel, is virtually as clean as any gasoline engine, and much cleaner in many aspects. Consumers can demand change...and achieve it via their purchasing choices. Walt Kelly said it best in "Pogo" years ago....as long as the American public keeps buying huge SUVs that get fewer than 15 miles per gallon hauling one person around, then "we have met the enemy....and he...is us."
Comment
21 of 57
January 11, 2006
Lots of healthy debate here...GREAT ! I predict that China or Japan will quite soon develop a series of very efficient third generation turbo-charged diesel engines that will run on petro diesel, straight bio-diesel, or mixes of these and other coal and bio-mass derived fuels. A whole new series of low-end straight drive or hybrid autos capable of carrying 4 slightly obese American adults fairly comfortably on trips of 500 miles at a burn rate of between 80-100 miles per gallon CAN and WILL be made...but NOT by Detroit. As usual, it will be offshore sources who develop, perfect, then market the car here in the U.S. and kick us in the economic shorts [read: massive negative balance of payments in our international trade] before we "get the message." Detroit COULD be engineering these types of cars now, and WE could be selling to the rest of the world, but the desire and the mindset just isn't there.
Comment
22 of 57
January 11, 2006
As I've indicated previously, the obvious universal fuel is renewable methane produced by anaerobic fermentation of biomass grown specifically as the process feedstock. In Brazil, alone, sufficient land mass is available, without affecting the Amazon, to economically produce the world's current total annual production of natural gas. www.CorpFutRes.com
Comment
23 of 57
January 11, 2006
Enter in google "energy suppression". You will find numerous stories of suppression of energy inventions.
Comment
24 of 57
January 11, 2006
David Friedman has everything except the potential of hydrogen to save the planet. For reasons of simple physics, renewable hydrogen cannot be as efficient nor as environmentally benign as renewable electricity, especially as a transportation fuel. Please re-read "Hydrogen Hijacked" by Lyn Harrison at http://www.energybulletin.net/3203.html
Comment
25 of 57
January 11, 2006
I must admit, the first paragraph misled me--I thought he would explain WHY cooking oil won't work. How must the diesel engine be modified? How must the oil be modified to work in a regular diesel engine. The readers of this newsletter must already know this. I'll keep looking, thanks.

As to the article, it sounds very familiar. I've read ones like it before many times.
Comment
26 of 57
January 11, 2006
Greetings !
Does this article say that we spend SIX THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED SIXTY-SIX DOLLARS AND CHANGE on foreign oil and oil products PER SECOND ? It is the other END of that equation....that is really SCARRY !!!

Can we get our brain, our national reserves of self relyance, knowhow, and technology behind what THE WRITING ON THE WALL WHICH SAYS-WE ARE IN THE " COOKER " AND THE TEMPERATURE IS RISING !
Respectfully submitted, phil r. mather, jr
Comment
27 of 57
January 11, 2006
I saw where we bombed German plants in WWII that were making synthetic fuel from coal for their planes, tanks and other vehicles. I saw where the US had plants in the 40's and 50's that made synthetic fuels from coalbut Pres. Eisenhower stopped federal funds stating this should be a civilian venture. Oh sure, the oil companies who own all or part of the world oil fields are going to cut into thier high paying business! The state of Pennsylvania is starting a program right now. Why don't the auto companies and others invest in this and get the unlocked from the oil companies who are gouging us to death. I understand a barrel of oil from coal would cost about $20. An article I read stated it costs the Arabs $5 a barrel to take it out of the ground. I also read there is enough coal in the US to produce more petroleum then is in Arabia. What the hell we waiting for?
Comment
28 of 57
January 11, 2006
Just some food for thought for all -- What if the grater part of the population starts to really push all politations at all levels to demand change in the way things are done. This could start by writing the right specifications for replacment fleet of cars and light trucks. Start at the county and state levals then it caould move on to the federal leveal. Something along these lines could start now. Everyone think about it.
Tom Treadwell
Comment
29 of 57
January 11, 2006
Don't dismiss cooking oil with the addition of methanol and filtration it makes an entirely acceptable diesel substitute without engine modification and is commonly used in Europe.
Comment
30 of 57
January 11, 2006
yes ...... you are right Adrian ...... I'm sure the good guy's will win in the end .....

..... I don't know why other countries which are not captive of the western worlds energy power elite do not implement vehicle fuel efficiency and alternative energy technologies ....... ie Brazil, China, India, Russia all have a lot to gain and nothing to lose ....


.... Paradox
Comment
31 of 57
January 11, 2006
Dear Paradox,

There is always hope. If good technology cannot be promoted in our country, then it is only a matter of time before some other country without such strong oil ties does the job. It is only a matter of time before we have people willing to develop break-through energy technology. I do not think fossils will last forever and it would make good sense, even to the oil companies, to look for alternatives.

Ford and GM are presently having difficulties because of their poor attitude toward energy efficient automobiles for the past 7 or 8 decades. Heavier cars, bigger motors has been there theme but where will their customers with oil prices predicted to rise further? GM is still thinking "SUV" because of the wide profit margins. Let us see what happens in the next few years.

adrianakau@aol.com
Comment
32 of 57
January 12, 2006
Thank you Charles Redell (January 11, 2006) for your comments. As a biodiesel researcher, I am always amazed at how much misleading information is disseminated on this topic. Most people reading articles on this very popular website probably take what David Friedman has to say at face value.

From now on I will have to be much more careful when I read articles on topics about which I am not so knowledgeable.
Comment
33 of 57
January 12, 2006
Additional response to Kim Kendall:

Hydrogen is not an energy source. Hydrogen is a means to store energy. For example, wind power is the most abundant and least expensive source of renewable energy that we have. The electricity produced by wind power can be stored by converting it to hydrogen.

Now, if we are going to convert the 100 million gasoline guzzling automobiles that we have on our roads to a renewable energy source how do we do that? How do you take the energy produced by wind power and use it in an automobile with an internal combustion engine?

One way is to use that electricity to produce hydrogen and use that hydrogen in the place of gasoline to operate the internal combustion engine.

Do you have a better suggestion how to use the electricity produced by wind power to operate an automobile designed to run on gasoline?

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
34 of 57
January 12, 2006
Additional response to David Larkey:

With respect to converting an internal combustion engine to hydrogen, the equipment and parts are available off the shelf. There are many mechanics available that you can hire to convert an internal combustion engine to hydrogen. You can also learn how to do it yourself if you wish. There are individuals who are converting internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen right now. The cost is approximately $5,000.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
35 of 57
January 12, 2006
Hydrogen may not be perfect, but it is much better than gasoline.


Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
36 of 57
January 12, 2006
Response to Kim Kendall:

How much damage do gasoline vapors do to the atmosphere? Our gasoline stations are required to have equipment to capture gasoline vapors when you fill your car, but that equipment does not capture all of the vapors.

The answer is gasoline vapors do considerable damage to the atmosphere.

We have over 100 million motor vehicles using gasoline. Would hydrogen do more damage to the atmosphere than leaking gasoline vapors? The answer is no, it will not.

Is it better to have those 100 millon automobiles using gasoline, or is it better to substitute hydrogen for the gasoline?

The answer is that it is better to substitute hydrogen for the gasoline.

The added benefits of substituting hydrogen for gasoline are that we would not have to import oil, and there would be no motivation to have wars for oil.

(continued)
Comment
37 of 57
January 12, 2006
Response to David Larkey:

Costs for hydrogen production are:

Electricity generated by windpower cost is 5 cents per kilowatt hour.

Equipment currently available to produce hydrogen electrolytically operates at 70% efficiency, and uses 50 kilowatt hours of electricity to produce an amount of hydrogen with an energy content equal to one gallon of gasoline.

Cost of production is $2.50. Cost of compessing the gas adds another 25 cents to the cost. Total cost is approximately $2.75 for an amount of hydrogen with an energy content equal to one gallon of gasoline. Comparable to the cost of gasoline today.

Hydrogen can be generated on site using electricity from the grid. You do not need to transport it.

I recommend that you subscribe to H2 Nation Magazine for more information about hydrogen and its use in vehicles.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
38 of 57
January 12, 2006
The biggest impediment to progress in vehicle efficiency, alternative fuels, and implementation effficient mass transit .... is that fossil fuel prices in the country with the engineering expertise, investment capital, and global manufacturing power are still way too cheap.

USA fuel price per litre is cheaper than bottled water at the supermarket.

USA gasoline prices:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/primer_on_gasoline_prices/html/petbro.html

Today an unskilled worker spends less than half as much, as a percent of wage, for a gallon of gasoline than the 1949 worker.
http://www.eh.net/hmit/compare/

http://www.louisville.cc/news/indexb.shtml
Shown in US dollars per US gallon as of Oct 10 2005
Belgium $6.19
France $5.88
Germany $6.16
Italy $6.11
Netherlands $6.53
UK $6.26
USA $3.06
Venezuela $0.12

There will never be a critical mass of political will to resolve the looming crisis while this persists.

..... Paradox
Comment
39 of 57
January 12, 2006
Has any one already mentioned here the article out of Cal Tech's Department of Atmospheric Sciences on their simulation results regarding the impact of hydrogen release into the atmosphere?? TURNS OUT IT WOULD DAMAGE THE OZONE. We need to keep this issue in mind too before we fully convert the economy over to hydrogen. Solar, wind, local production, etc need to be the biggest emphasis for most of our power. They are still the cleanest.
Comment
40 of 57
January 12, 2006
Charles Butterfield says"internal combustion engines can be readily and inexpensively modified to run on hydrogen instead of gasoline or diesel", but cites no authority for this claim. My understanding is that it is nowhere near that simple. Nor does he appear to factor into his cost for hydrogen (again unsourced) the expense of compressing, liquifying and storing H2 for use in vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. Over to you, Charles.
David Larkey
Comment
41 of 57
January 13, 2006
Response to Charles Butterfield
It is news to me that parts can be bought "off the shelf" to convert gasoline engines to running on hydrogen. Can you please provide the names of sources for such parts? Can you please also provide the sources for your cited costs of hydrogen production and storage? Does your coversion cost of $5000 per vehicle include the cost of storing a useful amount of hydrogen in the vehicle? I'd appreciate some hard information please, rather than just dogmatic repetition of the same "facts".
David Larkey
Comment
42 of 57
January 13, 2006
These are always entertaining discussions and encouraging in that there are so many well meaning people interested in the subject.

However, it is also apparent that many do not have a realistic appreciation of economics , are fixated by the "evil doers" ,and looking for monsters under the bed!

Yes, the market place is dictated by people who buy products and companies are in business to make a profit! Renewable or alternate energy have to compete in the market place to be incorporated. A fact of life.

The high price of petroleum should be looked at as a boon at this time as it will permit the developement of alternate energy sources such as coal and tar sands.

This will give us time to develope the alternate sources.
Comment
43 of 57
January 14, 2006
David:

How do you propose to solve the problem of the 100 million gasoline powered automobiles on our roads today? How do you propose to stop them from emitting greenhouse gases?

Compressed natural gas and propane are fossil fuels. They still produce greenouse gas when burned. Also, natural gas supplies are already in short supply. Although propane and compressed natural gas are easier to manage than hydrogen, converting an automobile to use CNG or LNG will not solve the problem.

It is certainly not practical or cost effective to convert a gasoline powered automobile to use a fuel cell.

The company that I referred you to is converting gasoline internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen today. One of the principals in that company is a coauthor of one of the books that you cited.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
44 of 57
January 14, 2006
To Charles Butterworth
I can see nothing at The Hydrogen Car Company's website to substantiate your view that internal combustion engines can be readily and inexpensively modified to run on hydrogen. There are also no references to independent substantiation of any of the company's claims for its products -- always a bad sign. To quote Patrick Serfass, technical director at the National Hydrogen Association, who urges patience from those watching the industry and worries that hydrogen will be overhyped and create a case of expectations that can't be met right away. "There's great promise in it," he says, "but we're only in the middle of a transition."
Comment
45 of 57
January 14, 2006
To Charles Butterworth
Daimler Benz and BMW have been working on hydrogen internal combustion engines for years and still haven't produced a commercial product. Spending $10,000 to convert an engine not designed to run on hydrogen in the first place and a short-range tank is obviously not a commercial proposition either. The auto makers have very obviously opted to develop fuel-cell technology instead. Much more promising at present are the diesel-on-gas systems that subsitute up to 85 per cent of CNG, LPG or LNG for diesel fuel -- see www.dieselgas.com. Unlike hydrogen, these fuels are cheap and inexpensive to store in practical quantities. Hydrogen could be used in commercially in such a system only if the vehicle were able to carry sufficient gas to provide an acceptable range, eg a ship or diesel locomotive.
Comment
46 of 57
January 14, 2006
To David Larkey:

Also, you may be interested to know that one of the prinipals of the Hydrogen Car Company is James Heffel, one of the co authors of the book, Hydrogen Fuel for Surface Transportation.

In the past ten years, Mr. Heffel, a very talented engineer - scientist, has developed solutions to many of the problems cited in the book, that plagued those who wanted to convert gasoline internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen.

Before joining the Hydrogen Car Company, Mr. Heffel was a principal research engineer for the University of California, Riverside, College of Engineering-Center for Environmental Research and Technology.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
47 of 57
January 14, 2006
Thank you, David:

I have tried to get copies of both of those books, however both of them are out of print. I will see if I can find copies at a used bookstore.

Michael Peavey's book was published in 1985 and is 20 years out of date. The book by Norbeck et al was published in 1996 and is 10 years out of date.

Both books are more of historical interest than a source of up to date information on this field.

A great deal has changed in this industry in the last 10 years.

For current information on automobiles with internal combustion engines converted to run on hydrogen I recommend that you contact the Hydrogen Car Company at 5700 Wilshire Blvd, suite 330, Los Angeles, Ca. 90036. They convert automobiles with existing internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. You can buy an automobile that is already converted to run on hydrogen or have them convert your existing automobile to run on hydrogen.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
48 of 57
January 14, 2006
Don't get me wrong ... I'm completely in favor of having having internal combustion engines running of hydrogen as soon as possible. I just don't think the cause is helped much by publishing unsubstantiated "facts" on the subject.
Comment
49 of 57
January 14, 2006
Sorry, Charles, but npot good enough. After dismissing Lyn Harrison as a journalist with no expertise in the field, you have recommended] a magazine (even advertisements) as a source of hard information! And suddenly, on your advice, your simple conversion of gasoline engines to run on hydrogen is costing $10,000 for a range of 80 miles. Might I recommend to you as more substantial sources of information on the real difficulties of making internal combustion engines run acceptably on hydrogen, you begin with "Hydrogen Fuel for Surface Transportation"(Norbeck, Heffel, Durbin, Tabbara, Bowden & Montano -- US Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc) and "Fuel from Water" (Michael A. Peavey). .... continued
Comment
50 of 57
January 14, 2006
Thank you, David:

I recommend that you subscribe to H2 Nation Magazine. The suppliers advertise in the magazine. You will find them there.

The amount of hydrogen stored in a typical conversion provides a range of 80 to 100 miles. Yes, that range is less than for a gasoline powered vehicle, however once gasoline stations provide hydrogen for refueling it should not be too much of an imposition to refuel a vehicle every 60 miles or so.

Also the range could be extended with more tanks of hydrogen, however the tank is the expensive part of the conversion. The tank costs approximately $4,000 and does take up a significant amount of space. If you start adding more tanks the cost does go up significantly. In general I thnk that a tank that gives a range of 80 to 100 miles should be a good compromise for most applications.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
51 of 57
January 17, 2006
Charles, I applaude your enthusiasmfor the H economy and I do agree it is a potential fuel but do not believe it is a "cure all" or ready for prime time at this point.

You are forgetting the production costs, storage issues particularily in mobile applications, safety issues(remember what happened to the Hindenburg), and distribution requirements. Believe me it is not as simple as putting up a windmill at the local filling station!

We need to immediately start working on paractial alternative fuels like coal, tar sand, biomass, etc.. and use the time they buy us to do serious work on renewables including hydrogen.

We need a serious national energy initiative that will focus and prioritize our actions.
Comment
52 of 57
January 18, 2006
To Wayne Bostick: (continued):

Your proposal that we use coal or oil from tar sands which are strip mined from ecologically sensitive environments, and produce hundreds of thousands of tons of extremely toxic waste indicates to me that you have not given a great deal of thought to the extremely damaging effects that coal mining and tar sand mining cause to our environment.

Also, both of these are carbon based fossil fuels that spew greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and are no solutuion at all.

Again, my question to you, Wayne is how do you get the 100 million gasoline guzzing automobiles that we currently have on our roads to stop guzzling gasoline and stop spewing greenhouse gases to the atmosphere?

Substitute carbon based fossil fuels from coal or tar sands or from any other source, are not the correct answer to that question.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
53 of 57
January 18, 2006
The Hindenberg does not demonstrate that hydrogen is more dangerous than gasoline. In fact the opposite is true. Hydrogen is less dangerous than gasoline. Have you ever seen what happens to a car when the gasoline tank catches on fire in an accident? It is far worse than if the car were powered by hydrogen.

You do not need a large districbution network. Electricity from windpower can be put into the electrical grid. That electricity from the grid can then be used to generate hydrogen on site at a gasoline station.

Your dismissive, ridiculous and insulting comment about a windmill at a gasoline station indicates to me that you are merely hostile to the use of hydrogen as an energy carrier and have not given a great deal of serious thought or study to the issue.

(continued)
Comment
54 of 57
January 18, 2006
To Wayne:

What do you propose to do about the 100 million gasoline guzzling, greenhouse gas spewing cars that we have on the road today?

With respect to production costs: The cost to produce an amount of hydrogen with an energy content equal to onoe gallon of gasoline using electricity generated by wind power is approximately $2.50 per gallon equivalent. That is comparable to the cost of gasoline today. That cost will continue to come down as the cost of electricity generated by wind power comes down.

The cost of gasoline will continue to go up.

How do we stop the 100 million cars currently on the road from from guzzling gasoline? How do we stop them from spewing greenhouse gases?

(continued)
Comment
55 of 57
January 19, 2006
Charles, you're letting your enthusiasm distort your vision.

I have no objections to H2 as a fuel, I just contend it is not practical at the present. You can't forget the practicalities of production, cost, storage, and distribution.

As to the use of alternate fuel sources such as coal and tar sands, etc.. I propose them as a pratical next step in energy evolution.

How do you propose to do away with the 100million cars? You aren't going to get that many people pay the cost of conversion in return for a 100 mile operating range? Be practical.
Comment
56 of 57
January 21, 2006
Thank you, Wayne:

Proposing coal and tar sands as a practical next step in energy evolution is like giving alcohol to an alcoholic in the hope that giving the alcohol is somehow going to help the alcoholic stop using alcohol.

Very soon the cost of hydrogen generated electrolytically by electricity produced by wind power will be substantially cheaper than gasoline because the cost of electricity generated by wind power is coming down, while the cost of oil is going up dramatically.

Electric cars failed not because of their short range (70 to 90 miles before recharging) but because of the long time that it took to recharge them.

It only takes a few minutes to refuel a car powered by hydrogen. Also the car can be made to run on both gasoline and hydrogen with the flip of a switch on the dashboard, so that when hydrogen is not available the car can be switched to run on gasoline.

Thank you,
Charles Butterfield
Comment
57 of 57
March 10, 2006
"Cooking oil, for example, is a limited resource and is only feasible for owners of modified diesel vehicles that produce more smog and toxic pollution than gasoline."
what is this nonsense statement?

The only mods a pre94' model diesel need to run b100(b80 is safe to use with rubber) is the replacement of "natural rubber" components, hoses etc. and it is ALOT less polluting than petrollium. dosn't take much research to find the truth about these things.

what should already be in effect, not as a solution, but what can be done right now is to push for laws that make it mandatory that all gasoline to be mixed with methanol and or ethanol at a %85/%15 mixture. and B80 orbetter should replace all petrol diesel, alot of companies that claim to sell biodiesel only sell 2%, B2 this is mainly added for lubrication.
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