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Economists' Report Boosts California's Case for Solar

By Jesse Broehl, Editor, RenewableEnergyAccess.com
April 19, 2005   |   34 Comments
Data Key as Initial Legislative Hearings Begin

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"When you look at the importance of the California program, there is no way that I can see the U.S. market being a meaningful market without California coming out the right way."
34 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 34
April 19, 2005
Christel, the economies of scale is not yet in PV's favor yet so support is needed. Perhaps solar thermal is cost justified just as it is now. I don't understand, doesn't solar energy sources include solar thermal. Seems to me it's close enough, and maybe you're being too specific in your "description" when you needn't be.
Comment
2 of 34
April 19, 2005
Christel I could not agree more. If I was King of America I would decree that no rebate for PV would be issued unless a thermal solar system was first put in place especially when using electric water heaters.
In addition I would decree that no more stick framed homes or buildings were to be built. Only SIPS or its equivalent would be legal.
Comment
3 of 34
April 19, 2005
This type of article quite simply gives me hope. One of the biggest counter points I have heard to solar is the idea that we'd need to cover an area the size of Iowa [or something equally bizarre] to be able to generate enough electricty for the US. Well I wonder how many southern facing rooftops there are in the US and what their total surface area is? The technology is ready, WE JUST NEED THE WILL.......
Comment
4 of 34
April 19, 2005
The solar heating technology is vastly undervalued and needs to be part of a balanced energy policy and receive equal treatment, especially in the subdivision home market.
A good solar thermal collector has a standard rate of 2.5 KW per 40 square feet and can produce a large portion of the annual hot water of a home at a cost of $3500.00.
A PV system with the same rating takes more than five times the roof area and costs 5-6 times more.
Comment
5 of 34
April 20, 2005
yes, you can light a bulb with btus.
the largest solar power plant in the world (thermal!), 1000 acres, is near death valley.
it's called kramer junction. see a pic on my webiste: http://kattl.com/way6.html
it's made enough electricity for more than a quarter million houses(!) since '86(!). zero pollution(!). trouble is, they only use it AFTER they sell you all other available power(!).
and, guess who just bought it?!? the CARLYLE GROUP!! so i expect it will be torn down soon.
it's those living in the past against those who want a future for our kids' kids.
Comment
6 of 34
April 20, 2005
The solar industry continues to do itself and its customers a disservice by the poor financial analysis done by solar contractors. Not properly representing the actual life cycle economics of a solar investment on either residential or commercial applications is pathetic.
Comment
7 of 34
April 20, 2005
Your recent analysis about the Financial incentives is poorly researched and misleading.
The Federal Solar and Geothermal Tax Credit has two components. 10% up to $25,000 AND up to 25% of the Remaining tax liability.
Further, additional tax Depreciation benefits (and other benefits) such as MACRS are not reduced by the full amount of the Tax Credit.
You need to do a better job of reporting and representing the manufacturers and Distributors and Sales Organizations you "represent" or write for!
Comment
8 of 34
April 20, 2005
Great Article...If you are building a house, urge your builder to install solar panels on the roof.
Comment
9 of 34
April 20, 2005
The original SB 1 measure addresses rebates and benefits for solar electric alone, while an amendment has been drafted to include solar thermal.
Let us all encourage the Ca Senators reviewing it on April 26 to vote for the amendment!
My earlier comments were not meant to put down solar electric (we have 10.8 KW on the Heliodyne factory) but to draw much needed attention to solar thermal.
Comment
10 of 34
April 20, 2005
The European and worldwide markets for solar thermal technology are orders of magnitude larger than that in the US. In many places in the world, solar thermal is the only available way to heat water. However, in the huge markets in the developed world, it has been shown repeatedly that without policy, and in most cases governmental intervention (usually in the form of directives or very modest incentives), the market does not respond.

Until there is a recognition that there needs to be a holistic approach to developing markets for all solar technologies, one will always be played off the other.

SB 1 is very important legislation, and needs to succeed. However, when the means exist to preserve huge quantities of natural gas for electricity generation by heating water with solar in California, and when the incentives required are a tiny fraction of those needed for other renewables, an important policy piece is obviously missing.
Comment
11 of 34
April 20, 2005
Good article but I always prefer that the internet address or other location of the original report be included in the article.
Comment
12 of 34
April 20, 2005
I generally support solar electrical generating systems and have a system on my roof. This system was installed almost 4 years ago and on sunny days generates a full 10+ kW per day. However, the original inverters I bought were not terribly reliable and had to be replaced prior to 3 yrs of use. The warranty is good for 2 yrs. but we had an additional insurance policy that replaced them at no cost. However, we weren't generating any electricity for almost 6 mos. because the inverters had to be removed, sent to the factory (where they said "they're broke can't be fixed"), and new ones made and installed.
Comment
13 of 34
April 20, 2005
As one co-founder of Cal-SEIA Coastal Chapter in the early 1980's, solar thermal was the backbone of the industry. Given the BTU-kW conversion, one can easily see how and why thermal should be included in every residential install. Domestic water, pool, spa solar systems... all offset gas use. You cannot light a bulb with BTU's, but...you can save a large amount of gas !.

We install a thermal system with every residential PV system. The gross kW production is mind boggling.

I feel that the solar industry should not allow itself to be split between PV's v/s Thermal. If we all concentrated on [power or energy production] BTU's and kW's alike, we would attract more high level support across the board.

'Solar energy systems' is an inclusive term, not an exclusive term. - allen
Comment
14 of 34
April 20, 2005
I live in San Diego. I woek in a commercial building with a 70,000 square foot roof that bakes in the sun an average 12 hrs a day, 320 days a year. There are tens of thousands of roofs like this in southern California. Do we need a big new power plant, or tens of thousands of little ones?
Comment
15 of 34
April 21, 2005
Does anybody know of a way people can organize together to "fight" Groups like the Carlyle Group. Maybe we the many could agree to only support energy or gasoline from a company that gets contracted to build or support alternative energy. Get somekind of binding contract and I think the common person can be faithful to a just cause.
It seems hideous that the few can rule we the billions out of a clean and just future.

Thanks for your time. I know this is not the forum for my writing.

Good luck with the organizing and success of this progressive initiative. And thanks for all the work that goes into getting things clear and accurate and fighting the greedy, fearful, dangerous ideologues (sp?).
Comment
16 of 34
April 21, 2005
note; solar thermal is expressed in kbtu because you are creating hot water, not watts. The systems cost is what cristal says is $3500. If you have an electric hot water tank then you can save lots of watts because you will not use the electric coil to heat the water,
Comment
17 of 34
April 21, 2005
good job, Cristal! Your comments stirred up a lot of responses and you are correct that solar thermal should be and is included in all solar/alternative energy legislation-rebate situations.
Comment
18 of 34
April 21, 2005
Christel Bieri, this is something that always baffled me!
Tell me if I got your numbers right. Solar thermal
is about $35002500w or $0.72/w !!
I know PV is at least $4/w
Comment
19 of 34
April 21, 2005
Christel Bieri would be well-advised to take any of the dozens of opporunities she has been offered to work collaboratively with the PV industry; she seems far more focused on expressing victimhood and opposition than in moving policy forward.
Comment
20 of 34
April 21, 2005
In response to Dylan Orren's comment asking for "better reporting," I ask simply: who said anything about the Federal Solar and Geothermal Tax Credit?

The article has nothing to do with that. Read the article carefully and get a handle on it before leveling unfounded criticisms.

- Jesse Broehl, Editor and author of the article.
Comment
21 of 34
April 22, 2005
My thanks to Kattl for clarifying my statement that 'you can't light a bulb with a BTU'', just like you can't shower with a kilowatt. My comments were directed at residential solar PV and Thermal systems. I do, however, appreciate the production capabilites of the large commercial thermal steam power plants, hydro, wind and all other 'carbon free' renewables.

My point was that, Solar Energy, Renewables, Green Power, Alternative Energy, Wind Power and any other name style that is chosen, is inclusive and needs to be supported, politically, as viable power sources.

Over 24 years, our company has embraced mulitple renewable disiplines and design and install accordingly. I guess you can say that we are AC-DC and BTU proud.

My next missive(s) will be letters of support for SB-1. I would also like to take this time to thank everyone associated with the countless hours in the development of SB-1 and to those who will be supporting SB-1 with their letters. -allen
Comment
22 of 34
April 22, 2005
The full testimony may be found at www.forsolar.org
Comment
23 of 34
April 22, 2005
Christel Bieri has right. The Solar Thermal Collectors better as the PV. The PV is limitad in a small capacity as 2-3 KV/ 40 squarem. To has more capacity already more expensive as the STC (namly Molten Salt Solar Towers) The different between the PV is a fixed on the roof therefore the angel of the sunshy is the lowest. At the MSTS the mirors are going always after the
sunshy therefore always use the optimal energy. The question is how can reduce the MSTS price changing the Molten Salt for a better material.
Comment
24 of 34
May 12, 2005
Identify all the sales outlets of the Carlyle group and boycott them. When you've got them by the wallets, the hearts and minds will soon follow.
Comment
25 of 34
May 12, 2005
Any bill in CA that supports PV and excludes solar thermal should not be supported. The move by the PV industry to exclude solar thermal is nod to the fact that their performace is pale in comparison. NREL and DOE show that solar thermal is 7 times more cost effectice than PV. However, solar thermal does not have the deep pockets to support the lobbying effort that PV does. Reason: the PV industy is controlled by the oil industry. Mobil, BP, and Shell are the major suppliers or PV panels. Do they need another subsidy? Why are they afraid to include the proven solat thermal systems in the bills they promote? Simple - the oil industry doesn't control the solar thermal industry like it does the PV industry. Show the oil industry a tax or rate payer funded slop bucket and their in it faster than Dick Cheney!
Comment
26 of 34
May 12, 2005
I believe the goal of SB-1 should be to construct true Zero Energy Homes in CA.
This integrating philosophy requires solar thermal, solar electricity and energy efficiency - all complementary and necessary elements of a ZEH. Just as a PV only ZEH is an oxymoron, a PV only SB-1 is simply moronic.
Comment
27 of 34
May 13, 2005
The NEW Sacramento mantra:
I'm with the government and i'm here to help the oil companies!
Comment
28 of 34
May 13, 2005
Has there been any response from the poor or lower income groups in CA about them being forced into subsidizing the weathier residents having a solar electric system put on their homes? This is exactly what will happen if SB-1 is passed. Poor rate payers will pay for rich peoples power plants to be installed on their homes.
There sure are some slick lobbying efforts going on in Sacramento these days. Where is Willy Brown we need to get him to chime in!
Comment
29 of 34
May 13, 2005
I hope the California legislature will see the wisdom in killing SB-1. The oil companies and Europeans are getting enough of our money!!!!
My house is heated by solar
My water is heated by solar
But my blood pressue is heated by the oil companies that are rapeing us at the pump, having our sons killed in foriegn countries, and now hoodwinking the CA legislature into giving them another windfall ofl millons of dollars.
Comment
30 of 34
May 13, 2005
The PV industry consists of Big European oil companies and Japanese electronics firms. None of whom presently can meet the world demand for PV modules. Where then is the wisdom in ginning up demand in CA. for a product that can't be delivered and undoubtedly will raise prices?
Comment
31 of 34
May 13, 2005
A heat on demand European style water heater uses electricity and CA has none to spare. Furthermore they are costly, prone to calcification due to the hard water out west (which reduces efficiency within in months and premature failure). Why would someone suggest an electric heater for such a simple process as heating water when there is a clear solar solution which has proven itself for over 30 years and approximately 2 million applications. The efficiency of thermal is many times more than PV and at a fraction of the cost. It is absurd that anyone would put PV on their home without first having a solar thermal system, especially having the state or a rate payer subsidize such nonsense.
These are the facts, and they are a clear threat to the PV industry and therefore solar thermal can not be included. This has been stated by employees of the PV industry.
Comment
32 of 34
May 13, 2005
Is it true the solar electric industry is controlled by the oil companies?
Do they employ the same lobbyists as someone noted?
What position has ASES and CALSEIA taken on SB-1 seeing they are not including solar thermal?
Comment
33 of 34
May 13, 2005
Hi Christel and Barry,

I appreciate your contibution but wonder what ratio you two would suggest when designing a pv/solar thermal system for a 2,200 sq. foot house? While I recognize that current water heaters are inefficient, I thought the heat- on-demand European water heaters were much more effecient. Given this, if I do not have a standing tank of water to heat and would only need to supply the energy to heat water on-demand, why would a solar thermal system be useful?

Cheers,

Neal
Comment
34 of 34
May 31, 2005
Why is ASES supporting SB-1 without the inclusion of solar thermal?
I thought that they were fair and unbiased in their efforts on behalf of solar energy applications. Did the oil money cloud their vision too?
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