Join the Solar Freedom Cause to Reduce Rooftop Installation Costs by 50%

I am all for roof top solar, which does not make noise, destroy wildlife, or ruin scenic areas! I have a hard time understanding why the US government does not put most of its eggs in this basket rather than also supporting wind energy. Wind energy is a tax dollar scam and the impact it has on rural areas in the USA is truly demoralizing. We have industrial size turbines a half a mile from our home and they have totally wiped out our quality of life, threatened our health, and had a significant impact on the value of our home (which encompasses our savings of a lifetime!). The turbines have also helped to wipe out the local bat population and are working on the eagle/raptor population as well, to say nothing of the red blinking lights ALL NIGHT LONG and the UGLY industrial view ALL DAY LONG. Wind energy is everything that is NOT green! So good luck to this group and to those people who are working on developing a solar system that can be easily adaptable to roofs in the US. Seems like a slam/dunk to me as the best way to invest our US energy $$$.

I personally know of a electrical inspector of our town who flagrantly boasts about his $156,000.00 copy of a check for a Solar/PV utility plant installed and since they charge per kWh, and from someone i spoke with who was there during the inspection, the inspector spent most his time just looking around with amazement, (since he didn't really know what he was EVEN LOOKING AT) but made sure main connections and overall electric regulations, (height of troff and inverters from ground, etc) were up to spec. So tell me how that is anything but a way of hindering economic along with being taking a very anti-productive fee structure for an energy source that can only be beneficial to the town as a whole. (although they didn't manage to look at the berm around the facility until the neighbors complained to make it high enough to not have to see a field of panels out of your $400,000.00 home that you pay some $11-14,000 dollars in property taxes a year. Someone needs to stand up to these permitting offices that think they are all powerful... God even the women behind the DMV counter these days makes it like they are doing you a favor... I'm sorry, do I get mad at customers that walk in the door because I have to help them... This permitting and other costs associated with renewable energy systems demanded by local and utility companies are getting out of control and government without checks and balances is a dangerous combination.

This being said, there should be no problem, and when talking about large ground mount systems, or large flat roof mount systems, they could even just install the panels and have the electrician go through and secure each connection… makes sense right… but no, they pushed and are enforcing (have seen first hand), union members call for labors CARRING panels on a flat roof and setting them to the rail without touching a single wire. HERE is where I get angry because this is where job security, along with politics comes into play to make something that seems common sense and cost efficient we give to an over inflated job market due to the housing market crash, which I feel for each and every person, but because I don't have a lobby group working for me to basically PAY OFF and anyone who tells me political donations are not payoffs, is as blind as a heroin addict telling you he has is addiction under control. They don't look at the fact that in the long run, the more systems we can install, the more work down the road they will be needed for maintenance, repair and replacement and these jobs will take an electrician. But take may scenario from before and make it a 10MGw utility size field, now you are going from $1280 ($16x8hrsx5workersx2days) for skilled labors and $3600($45x8hrsx5workersx2days), and lets just use two days of work as a baseline, but the difference is now $1,280,000 to $3,600,000. Now that's no small figure. We need people to stop "hogging the trough". These are difficult times, but rather than see the benefits of keeping costs as low as possible which intern will help increase the total overall number of systems. The benefits for both sides of labors and electricians will only be greater rather than keeping costs high and yes making money in the short run to make less down the road, rather than allow more cost effective ways for the initial installation and intern have a much greater number of installed systems, which helps everyone.

and (just in-case you need a third form of verification as if the fact that of the same ends simply can NOT fit into on another) they are most times also color coded. My point is not to hurt electricians, or anything that I have anything against unions, which is why I removed my post, I did not mean to offend. I simply meant, and having worked for a smaller solar integrator, and going over systems designs, string diagrams and every point along the way from initial sale to final interconnection and every step along the way, (yes I took a month "out of office" in-field learning to ensure I knew every step of the process and did ever aspect (with supervision) of both roof and ground mount instillations), it would be impossible when talking cost wise to install a large ground mount or roof mount systems with those costs per hour at a rate comparable to other resources. Well sorry let me correct that, its not impossible, we do it all the time, but just one reason why solar cost parity to other energy generating sources is still a year or so away, if not longer. Now go into government projects and those prevailing rate jobs, and forget it, a small business is basically so out-priced that it is almost impossible to be able to keep up. Now I am not saying that unqualified people should be installing any aspect of the system, but as for securing a panel to my roof, I would rather a skilled labor who knows more about building and overall material integrity of construction installing the mid and end clips to secure the panels to the rail. Now at this point, you are talking about and lets just say a 10kWh system, about 5 guys about two days to install lets say 50 200watt panels. . So total install (for this part of process $1280 ($16x8hrsx5workersx2days) for skilled labors and $3600($45x8hrsx5workersx2days), for licensed electricians to do the same work, for the same size system.

Why, thank you... That makes sense to me.... I was hoping to find someone knowledgeable on both sides and if their are differences... sorry I should have clarified just one example I know of first hand. I do know that in my State, we have the electrical unions influence on regulations of the installation of PV systems states that only a licensed electrician can install solar panels. Now when installing a ground or roof mount system, there are multiple steps taken... first the feet and flashings, followed by rails, then panels installed with simple "plug and play" connections which are almost impossible to connect incorrectly. Yes, the installers must know which panels are strung together,(groups of 9 to 14 panels strung in a series, generally up to four strings of panels per inverters but every system is different), but whether a group of licensed electricians are installing the panel or a group of labors that have been trained over the course of a couple weeks, the project manager or site coordinator will have to instruct them either way from the string diagram indicating exactly which panels will be connected together. That being said, I AM NOT SAYING that labors should do anything past securing the panels to the rail and connecting the "plug and play" ends. Now that all the panels are installed, you have one end at the end of each string.. at this point, a licensed electrician SHOULD HAVE TO take over. The difference in the amount that person is making an hour for installing a panel to a rail and connecting the panel together is something like $12-22 an hour (labors) to $22 (a newbie) generally closer to $45-$55, and if they have been working for a union and been working for ten years for that company, sometimes as high as $75 easily an hour (for licensed electricians) to secure a connection between clearly visibly defined not only by the connections themselves, but along with + and - labels ...

The difference in the labor rate for solar installations in German and the US is (I believe) largely related to the trades used. Most of the roof top installation work in Germany is done by roofers. Their labor rate is less than electricians or finishing carpenters. The design of the German roof top mounting is pretty much a function of the roof tiles AND the type/shape very similar between houses. Roof tiles last far longer than asphalt roofs - so the requirement to replace roof before adding solar is mostly removed.

Flaggers also also used throughout Europe -- but one of the observations is that if you commit a traffic offense (DUI) the penalties are higher in most European countries AND the appeal options are more restrictive. It is harder to get a drivers license in Germany than the US. More training, practice and testing required.

Germany has a higher population density and can easily fit within Washington+Oregon. The implications when you think about it are pretty profound. The cost to modernize and maintain the infrastructure costs less AND you have a larger population based to spread the cost over. Germany would also easily fit into Montana/Wyoming - both states together have probably 1/64th the population of ALL of Germany, yet because of the wide large distances in Montana/Wyoming the cost for the infrastructure up keep is quite high.

Thank you so much! It is about time that someone is doing something about the fact that local permitting costs are out of control. Just as an example, in the town I live in, they have "realized" that back when SRECs (here in NJ) where at their peak, they could charge per kWh. Now keep in mind, during my time working for a small integrator I sat for a few inspections in my time, and after doing nothing more than looking at the array (most times from the ground only), and making me open the electrical troff under the inverters, they would maybe check the distance from the closest wall and ensure the wood behind was fire-board, but after about 15 minutes, they would be out of there. They never checked FLASHINGs, product actually used verse what was specified in the initial permits (not panels, but rails, flash kits, etc.). So poor Ms Jones, has something installed that will wear down and probably flood within a few years. I have actually seen NO FLASHINGS on installations done by some of the largest installers in the state. Anyway thank you for taking action against these people who think that just because they have the authority to fail your inspection or make your life a living hell (with dealing with the township, fire, police, etc.) someone is willing to stand up and say ENOUGH already. They saw this as a way of filling the income deficit left from the housing market crash and the soon to follow decrease in property values and the decrease in tax rates. They had to make up the short fall somehow... and like always, take it from the people trying to something beneficial or productive. Government is out of control when it comes to the amount a productive member, let alone the amount a small and mid-size business pays in taxes, fees, fines and other certifications in a year is getting to unsustainable levels. These all create barriers to certain markets and keep growth basically flat lined.

Opinions of GeraldR and Richard are very useful who want to go for Solar systems. I am from India where Solar power is not common whereas power outages are. It is quietly picking up but households have not entered tested it except for some stand-alone units. The potential is high and the present system of power backup through batteries can easily be used to tap solar power which does not require any inspection of utility provider or local Government. Nice reading you all.
Sreenivasan

To be fair, I live in an area served by a reasonably progressive power company, that likes solar, they process the paper work in less about FIVE business days, schedule power company worker to be on site to install THEIR meters (production and net) both meters support automatic meter readings.

The city permitting process is online, via the web, the inspectors can be scheduled the day before via the web, and they are pleasant and efficient.

I suspect the problem is not US wide but is actually something that is specific to certain states and cities.

8. Customer acq.. The German states and federal government have been actively supporting solar as a PRIORITY for nearly 30 years. The have setup financing via KfW, they make it easy to obtain finacing -- AND they enact laws that require energy improvements to homes of which adding solar is one option. The cost of aquiring customers would certainly be lower.

9. Overhead - this one I am perplexed about. It is the largest difference and I wonder if a portion of the US overhead cost - is the paperwork the installers do to help with financing. The Germans have addressed that via the banks and promotion loans through KfW. I suspect some of it is also the wait time that the US installers must spend while waiting for inspectors to arrive on site. If the difference is related to financing - it would be fair to argue the difference in the costs is related to indirect government subsidies via financing. In which case we should be subtracting the 30% ITC that solar installations in the US may take. If that is done the prices of the systems are very close and can be explained.

So looking at the chart (and reading numerous other presentations), I always have heart burn with the comparison of the costs for installations in US and Germany.

While the module and inverter costs are nearly the same, the changes start showing up -- and the reasons for the differences are often discounted.

For the curious, search for youtube videos that show the installation of solar on German rooftops. Things you will notice are:

1. Roofs are ALMOST always clay tile. The installers are roofers, the mounting process often only requires the lifting of a tile and hooking the mount onto the tile, then laying the tile back down.

2. Roof penetrations are non-existent because the roofs are tile, wires run through the tile roof vent.

3. Interconnection of the arrays on the roofs are done by roofers, not electricians.

4. Tile roofs have a pretty much uniform design, that makes the collection of hardware needed to install easier, racks are simpler.

5. Electrical from roof is NOT installed into conduit, just ran into the tile vent, down to by the inverter, through the sheet rock and into the inverter... two strings, no problem four wires from roof and combined in the inverter.

6. Labor costs are lower, because most the work is done by the roofers. AND I DO NOT believe the surveys which compare the direct site related hours of labor for German installers and US installers. I believe it is being under reported for German installations!

7. Permitting - yeah, some of the permits are using solar as a revenue generation business for the cities or states. That's true. But I also know those same cities or states are also charging some rather creative (and perhaps unreasonable) fees for nearly any work done on a residence. We (solar industry) are just making more noise about it.

continued...

andrew-rohdy.... you were hustled bigtime. They owe your money back. You provide learning ops for them and charge you ???

Though I fully agree with Thomas in regard to the easiest way to go about a solution, it is just not viable in some cases for people to lay out the full cost of an off grid system. The extra cost for storage alone is like adding the cost of an extra solar panel for each battery. You can get cheap batteries of course, but you will replace them a lot more often. That will prolong the pay back on your investment. The initial cost of interconnection varies from one utility to another, and from residential or commercial, or utility scale. The amount of liability varies too.
If you are a great electrician as well as a solar expert, you can get around many of the draw backs with a simple disconnect on the utility side. The utility company may not like it, and may come look at your set up and meter to make sure you have not violated their agreements, but you can get a permit to install one in most areas. You do however have to notify the utility of intent,and you have to have your power disconnect shut off when you turn theirs on. Switching back and forth can save you a considerable amount of money, and if yours is never on when theirs is you are in no danger of feeding back into their system. I know of a couple of people who have obtained permits to do this an it has cut their cost considerably. Keep in mind though that this requires abs for critical systems in your home like computers and other electronics that would be effected by switching on and off. We have available to us many ways of bridging the gap, but storage batteries are only one of them and must be maintained as well. When batteries are used in solar, they must be checked and maintained a minimum monthly. Set your schedule accordingly if you decide to use them.
I do however recommend that you buy the best you can afford. Gel batteries with sealed systems have a lot less chance of causing gas related problems also. Use a terminal paste to protect the connections, and be sure to monitor.

I don't believe that UL listing is sufficient. UL is a for profit organization whose standards are predominantly related to electrical and related fire safety. They do little which is applicable to systems, particularly in the area of functional safety. As a consequence, they receive very few references above the component level in the Code of Federal Regulations - that's not to say that any components should not have a safety certification such as UL, VDE or etc, they should; merely that that is insufficient for functional safety of systems. Also, safety is only one ingredient - performance, reliability, quality and energy efficiency should also be validated.
As another wrinkle, utility owned installations including rooftop installations on a customer's property are not in scope of national standards. The fox is not only in charge of the hen house, it has a legislated access door.
Metering is another wild west, particularly with the advent of smart meters: accurate metering now goes beyond the integrity of the meter itself, which is regulated and standardized, becoming the domain of utility data services and manual processes, which are not standardized or regulated. Numerous examples of smart meters installed with hundreds of kWh already on the clock and incorrectly addressed meters expose this issue. Inordinately high charges for billing of PV meters is a subset of this problem.
Getting installation costs in line is only step 1 - operating costs also need to be made reasonable.

It's surprising that utilities haven't taken a page out of Tom Edison's book and taken to electrocuting cats with solar panels. But seriously, a comprehensive national standard is not practically possible at this time with approximately 203 AHJs (authorities that have jurisdiction) - it's hard to work out the exact number - with a substantial number at variance with the National Electrical Code. On top of that, add local building codes and fire regulations. Equipment suppliers can tell you that it is easier to conform to requirements across all of Europe than across the USA alone. This factionalism and fractiousness is a major impediment to all progress in the electricity sector, not just solar. It's essentially a scheme that promotes parochialism and commercial interest over and above the common good. However, uniformly adopted national codes is a desirable goal - just recognizing that Solar Freedom is breaking new ground in this respect.
As an additional complication, US rooftop installations require and probably need an engineering study: one need merely compare US and German insurance stats on weather damage to roofs to see why that is the case. Also, when non-flammable roofing material is the norm, Germany may have yet another advantage.

Skip the interconnect and all associated headaches. Purchase off grid necessities and deduct those cost on your taxes and take what you can get. It might just add up to more savings by not spending all that extra cash on soft costs.

Completed a 2000 watt grid-tie windmill system in October. Although the local building code people were reasonable, my utility company, REA, charged me 792 bucks to get hooked up leagally. At around 150 bucks, the local building code people inspected my windmill pole foundation, did the electrical inspection, or basically did all the work. Then they sent that info to REA. Then REA had me fill out a REAP agreement, plugged in an additional meter to measure my wind power which I had installed the meter socket, and programed my existing smart meter for an addtional 792 bucks.

Now I'm thinking about solar but the thought of dealing with them is making me think twice.

This is very interesting and i definitely think that it can help people to help reducing the cost of solar power. For more info on that : www.howtoimprovelife.org