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Don't Miss The Great Solar Debate: Where Does the Global Solar Industry Stand? Click Here to Register! ×

Coalition vs. Coalition: The Solar Trade Dispute Gets Hotter

Steve Leone
November 08, 2011  |  69 Comments

The American solar industry is deeply (though perhaps not evenly) divided over the pending trade complaint against Chinese panel makers.

If you needed any more proof of that, you got it Tuesday when 25 companies announced that they had formed a competing coalition to counteract the mostly anonymous coalition behind the anti-dumping petition currently under review. Adding to the intrigue — and the confusion — is that the new coalition includes several of the China-based giants targeted in the investigation.

So now the solar industry, which once walked happily hand in hand — publicly at least — toward grid parity, now has an internal friction point that has spilled into the headlines.

This all unfolded Tuesday in Washington as SolarWorld, the only American company to allege on the record that China is illegally dumping panels into America, testified before the U.S. International Trade Commission.

The formation of the new coalition clearly puts more pressure on SolarWorld, America’s largest panel manufacturer. The company more than heads up the Coalition for American Solar Manufacturing (CASM). They are the lightning rod that those critical of the complaint are pointing to, and that will only continue until other members of the original coalition make their case publicly. Maybe the formation of this new group, the Coalition for Affordable Solar Energy (CASE), will force “the anonymous six” to stand up with SolarWorld. More likely, though, they’ll retreat deeper into anonymity as more in the industry come out against the petition. According to a recent poll by PV Magazine, 76 percent of respondents opposed the filing of the petition while only 20 percent supported it.

So, who belongs to this new coalition? It was started by Jigar Shah, head of the Carbon War Room and founder of Sun Edison, and Sheldon Kimber, chief operating officer of Recurrent Energy. It also includes Alpine Solar Energy, LLC, AltPOWER, Inc., American Solar Systems, Inc., Canadian Solar, Carbon War Room, Carolina Solar Energy LLC, Gaia Worldwide, LLC, groSolar, Lighthouse Solar, Lumos, MEMC/SunEdison, PetersenDean, Recurrent Energy, Rochlin Corporation, Russell Pacific, Solar City, SolarFirst, Inc., Sungevity, Suntech America, SunRun, Syncarpha Solar, LLC., Trina Solar U.S. Inc., Verengo, Westinghouse Solar and Yingli Americas.

While nothing was said Tuesday that hasn’t been said before, the formation of this new coalition itself speaks loudly. And it’s likely that more companies will join the 25, though it’s questionable what can be done at this point.

We’re still relatively early in this legal process, so there are many questions still to be answered, and many dying to be asked. Here's one: If the new group goes by the acronym CASE, will the original group be referred to as CASM (pronounced chasm)? I’m sure some would appreciate the irony in that.

The information and views expressed in this blog post are solely those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on this Web site and other publications. This blog was posted directly by the author and was not reviewed for accuracy, spelling or grammar.

69 Comments

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ANONYMOUS
November 16, 2011
Commentary seems to have ended but I have one last recommendation. Clyde Prestowitz is a brilliant economist. He wrote "Betrayal of American Prosperity," published last year. It's a fabulous book which discusses the flaws of free trade theory. Prestowitz is even better than Chang, as he is American and looks at the problem from that viewpoint. He also discusses the solar energy industry in his book. Wesley Clark and the Tribune wrote great reviews, as did other recognized individuals and publishers.

You just have to read it!
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 14, 2011
Thank you LarryofGalaxy!
That was an excellent news clip.
It pretty much confirms what I suspected.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 14, 2011
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/jennifer-granholm-we-gave-businesses-

I suggest all of the 'free trade zombies' and Reagan Zealots addicted to belief in the canard that cutting taxes and regulations leads to more job creation ,view this video.

This is a lady who saw the 'inner sanctum'.
She experimented with giving big business everything but the kitchen sink while governor of Michigan and then was kicked in the teeth for trying.

I'm really serious when I say that I am convinced that there is something biologically damaged in the brains of those who proudly proclaim to be a conservative and cherish all that this sick and demented mind set helped to destroy over the years.

They are like a person who when shown the severe damage of the frost bite destroying their extremities ,caused by the freezing blizzard they're standing in,will look straight at you, all the while suppressing the severe pain they experience and tell you in all sincerity that they are loving the warm and sunny day on the beach.

They remind me of those folks from the Soviet Union who used to appear on our TV's and insist that the mile long line of his countryman standing in line to buy the two or three rolls of toilet paper the state produced for several thousand consumers was not really a line at all. They would tell you it's a capitalist plot where we used mirrors and wide angle cameras to make it just appear that the Soviet Union was a flaming failure.They did it with a straight face.

Remember Baghdad Bob? The guy who was on Iraqi TV during the first gulf slaughter for profit telling the world that they were kicking the US militarizes ass,all the while the TV behind him clearly showed Baghdad going up in flames ?

That's no different than the free trade,tax cut for the rich creates jobs conservative robots state of delusion.

Hmmmm!
On second thought I think they remind me of the 'pod people' in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Good movie by the way.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 14, 2011
Since we have cheap hydropower here in the Pacific Northwest, I aim to go ultra efficient weatherization, heat pump, and solar hot water first. Afterward, I will consider adding solar if the electric cars get into the 200 mile range.
ANONYMOUS
November 14, 2011
I suggest Larry and Mark copy/paste their remarks into the comments section for the subsequent articles from Renewable Energy about the panel dumping CASE case. The free trade zealots seem to be winning there.
Bob Hostetter
Bob Hostetter
November 14, 2011
Tax credits are great, if you have the tax liability to collect them. Most of the people who could most benefit from the cost savings of Solar, not to mention all the other really good things about Solar, don't have a tax liability...therefor, a tax credit is not all that useful. Even if you don't sign, please look at the link below, and pass it on to those who you think might.

http://www.change.org/petitions/secretary-of-energy-dr-steven-chu-reappropriate-big-energy-subsidies-cover-50-of-cost-of-home-pv-systems
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 14, 2011
Simple answer; YES!

Items to consider; Foreign goods tariffs, Upgrade PURPA Regulations to include small residential generation, 100% tax credit for installing American made panels and 30% tax credit on Chinese made panels, promote solar actively, utility scale solar, utility scale gasification of waste wood and rdf to high BTU syngas to electricity and NG at the same local level plant to curb landfill, why isn't anyone listening to the success of waste cooking oil and oil crops to make biodiesel? It should expand! Tidal energy, I can list more.

Currently I create more electricity than I use all but about three weeks a year in summer when I crank up the AC during heat waves. It was easy, even though I was the first one to grid tie in our 26,000 member rural electric coop. Today, with panel pricing at under $2.00, it's a no brainer for people who believe in our children and grandchildren living in a place anywhere recognizable to where we grew up. My father bought Bitumen by the super tanker directly from the Saudis and he saw back in the "70's" what was going to happen to the USA after peak oil was realized. It's time for us to unite and do something!
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 14, 2011
"Bush II jacked the debt to 14 trillion with his crazy war in
Iraq. and the necessary war against terror"

Couple of points in order here, It was not Bush 11 so much as is was The Bush Crime Family. George was nothing more than a sock puppet. Look up the long history of the crimes the entire Bush family has engaged in for at least 120 years.

There has never been any need for a war on terror.In fact you cannot have a war on an idea.Terrorism is controlled with good police action by real law enforcement.Not by a bunch of hired killers just as bad as the terrorists but better dressed.

The only terror on our soil of any import was 911 and of course most thinking folks know it had little to do with Arabs and box cutters but more to do with advanced electronic flight systems,a conspiracy of silence and a gullible citizenry that will fall for anything dressed up as a well financed and orchestrated 'terror fashion show'

Correction*
Obama is not afraid of anything except slipping up and doing something that his owners dislike enough to put in place a second Dallas single gunman scenario.

He was purchased just like a side of beef. And don't be fooled. The charade called the debates is only for show. Those in power are quite pleased with Obama as he has been quite loyal and obedient and will see a second term.

I agree it was a crazy war (all wars are mass insanity)if you consider mass murder to be crazy. Just like Vietnam the Iraq mass slaughter was simply another extension of the crony capitalism that since WW11 has served as a cash cow for a few elite at the expense of the many.If there were any real justice in the US, Cheney and Bush and their entire criminal enterprise would be rotting in federal prison.


"Crazy free market kooks like Alan Greenspan and Reagan/Bush/Bush gave us the financial crisis. We never had kooks like
them during our protectionist past."


You're wrong.
We have always had conservatives.
ANONYMOUS
November 14, 2011
Finishing up on the comment above, I want to point out that a big part of our trade deficit results from oil imports. Oil imports are not the only reason we need solar and wind power now. Global warming is not only real, it may be happening much faster than scientists think. We have to elect a new party that will proactively intervene in the economy to solve our many problems. We had a Manhattan project for atomic power. We need an industrial policy and development agency to solve our energy and economic problems today. Crazy free market kooks like Alan Greenspan and Reagan/Bush/Bush gave us the financial crisis of 2008 to the
present. Weakling Obama is little better. We never had kooks like
them during our protectionist past. We won both world wars as a
protectionist state. Under post WWII Republican administrations we
have literally come apart at the seams economically.
ANONYMOUS
November 14, 2011
America must close the trade deficit it has. The trade deficit represents the loss of over fifty million jobs. I mentioned earlier that a new political party is under construction to achieve that vital goal. You must read the Ha Joon Chang books I mentioned in post 19 above. His names sounds like that of the owner of a Chinese restaurant, but he is actually a distinguished economist at Cambridge University. We can build panels cheaply in America, but we have to reform the industry. The right wing has brought America to it's knees. We have had only two Democrat presidents since Lyndon Johnson, who left in 1968. As of 1968 there was no trade deficit, very limited
national debt, and a very good standard of living with low
unemployment. Since 1968, President Carter, a Democrat, served one 4 year term, and he did not raise the debt much. He was a weak, right leaning, Southern President. Since Carter, Clinton was the only other Democratic President before Obama. Clinton actually reduced spending, eliminated deficit spending, and worked to erase the national debt. Clinton beat Bush and Perot. Reagan and Bush I greatly increased the debt. Perot warned that free trade would
destroy us, but the media beat him down. He had never been
elected to any office, but he got 20 percent of the vote. Since
Clinton, Bush II jacked the debt to 14 trillion with his crazy war in
Iraq. and the necessary war against terror. Obama is a clueless
weakling who can't fix the economy because he is afraid to end trade
deficits through a proactive industrial policy. Once we bring our
job/tax base back from China, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Indonesia,
Taiwan, etc., and achieve energy independence, we will be home
free. We can't let the Wall Street one percent and the media
monopoly that trumphets their crony capitalism screw us anymore.
Unions declined from 35 percent of workers in 1968, to less than 7
percent today.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 13, 2011
Burning sustainable jobs tooooooo....'
With no replacement in sight
we will be hungry for foooooood...'
Roy Browning
Roy Browning
November 13, 2011
There are some interesting comments here, mostly from the uninformed reading the American, highly left wing and spin enhanced news media. For the NZ guy, the reason energy consumption in The USA is way above yours is that America used to actually produce something other than sheep, this required energy. Now that production is in China where the labor used to be cheaper than any other, Now some companies are moving production back to America because quality control in China is extremely difficult due to massive corruption (yes, I have seen it many times, I live in China)and production costs are nearly equal to America now. Ford is a good example of this.

Chinese taxes are another problem, WTO rules required the gradual elimination of import duties, yes the did reduce them, but replaced these duties with a higher tax with a different name for virtually all goods. China also now requires foreigners to pay social security taxes, which they will never be able to collect upon retirement, because foreigners are not allowed to retire in China due to several overlapping policies. Foreign companies now have to retain 10% of their earnings in China, and another 10% tax to take the remaining 90% out of China. The Chinese government has massive debt to all of their banks which they are trying to keep quiet. This debt is being used to build infrastructure but recent audits show 60% or more is being lost to corruption and the projects are of such poor quality that many have to be demolished and rebuilt prior to first use. All rail projects have been on a permanent hold for nearly 8 months pending audits and investigations of massive fraud and corruption, with the jobless standing on corners with no income and no jobless benefits. All of the solar panel companies are under investigation for fraud and tax evasion, several have been caught donating products to charity organizations that they own, then selling those panels to US subsidiaries at far below cost. And there is more!
arny ahnfeldt
arny ahnfeldt
November 13, 2011
Its Seems that you Guys in the USA do not get it you helped in huge way to create this Monster (China) as world economic power house they own most of your bonds that are getting less and less valuable every day. and now you are pretending to own some kind of rights for the last 50 years average energy consumption per head has been way above us in NZ and rest of world. now we are in realignment of the world economy and it all comes down to USA pulling there heads in. take alook at your top 50 companies who have come thru this finical crisis so way Wonder where there manufacturing base is. it is obvious the dumping of PV is the less of your worries. Stop printing money and taking the piss
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 12, 2011
FYI I'm sittin here watching my three American made wind turbine generate about a thousand watts average power, using about 600 and exporting the rest into the American power grid.
Earthbilly
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 12, 2011
I've been in Wall Mart stores and McDonalds in China and the pricing is similar to America. The difference is it may take several weeks of saving up for someone there to go to Mc D or Wall Mart. There are just so many more people there that the stores still do good business.
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 12, 2011
China places a tariff on imports to promote capital investment into internal manufacturing to promote jobs and a few other things good for their economy.

If we place tariffs on the goods imported into our country from any other country with an uneven manufacturing structure; (pay scale, lax environmental standards, cheap raw materials, etc.), then we protect our jobs here at home. If pricing gets out of line for US products any foreign manufacturer is free to capitalize a factory in our country to take advantage of the profits and reduce the pricing which is all a stabilization of pricing in our economy. Meanwhile we have jobs, sell our raw materials, and pay off our debts. The only countries that might be considered for free trade are countries that pay the same wages, same benefits, and have no tariffs placed on our goods. This is not what China offers, or Mexico, nor many outside of Canada and some of Europe. Some Japanese auto manufactures build a more American made auto than GM, Ford, Jeep, etc., forced to by Federal guidelines promoted by American owned automakers that then build in cheaper labor forien countries. So who runs the Federal Government? Corporate profits, not the people. That's why China has no tariff to import here when they have tariffs on our goods going there. The boogie man here is American cooperate greed. Not tariffs. Anyone tells you different has an agenda, or investments into capitalizing the very American corporations turning profit on cheap foreign made goods.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 12, 2011
@ Phil-manke
If they can't afford some of our products then why do they place tariffs on things we export to them?
See comment 13 of 54 from Mark-Hadley.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
November 12, 2011
52- IMO, In a national economy, unemployment can be because of producing goods that few others want, or can afford. We have had a "trickle up" economy for so long that the money to buy "junk" is getting scant. But producing goods is not a right, it is a way to earn. Working for a tyrant is not a right either. Walking out of a crappy job is. Spending beyond ones means is not a right. Being careful is.
Voting is a right. Peaceful demonstration is a right. Blogging is a right. Recalling corrupt liars is a right too. We haven't been stabbed in the back so much as screwed in the wallet. We have had declining wages, very true. But the people you work for are doing amazingly well, it is said. The time for creative thinking and action is here, no doubt. It may well be time for a third party in government. It has worked before and can work again, if we choose.
ANONYMOUS
November 12, 2011
@Arny

Arny, you speak for yourself, not your entire country right? New Zealand is exporting raw materials and other inputs to the Chinese, in huge amounts, so perhaps you are influenced by self interest. There is nothing wrong with that. You seem to be saying that since America has followed policies that are bad for it in the past, it has a responsibility not to change those policies so abruptly that the global economy, or the economies of the countries that export to us, are not harmed. I totally agree. America must be mindful of the best interests
of the rest of the world. However, the American people face very
high unemployment, and they have suffered declining wages for
decades. We The People, who have been stabbed in the back by
economist plutocrats for so long, have a right to good government.
We have a right to produce goods domestically in order restore our
job/tax base, speed technological progress, achieve a higher
standard of living, pay off our huge national debt, and pay for
programs that are vital to our national interests and security.
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 12, 2011
John, I agree that we should impose tariffs on everything we import from China, not just solar panels.
But I strongly disagree with your statement that China has 100,000,000 Christians. I lived in country for a full year and spent time in nearly every part of the country. You are completely wrong. Non religion is strongly advocated by the government. Christians can be put in jail. It's almost as bad as Egypt for Christians.
John Carr
John Carr
November 12, 2011
By the way, our investment in China worked. Today, starvation in China is a small fraction from the high in 1968-69. Culturally, they may be the largest Christian country in the world, yes Christian. With nearly 100 million Christians, I think that makes them the largest group of Christians in the world. Almost 70% of the Chinese government professes to be Christian.

So, it's not the bad guys vs the good guys, or even cultural differences. The Chinese government has policies that damage those that help them, (us). The US worked through this 80 years ago when we passes laws banning predatory business tactics.

They're fast learners. I guess this is the next lesson. If the past is any indication, this lesson isn't learned without a lot of yelling and fist pounding. I think they will eventually correct it.

China needs their investments in the US to be fruitful for their long term economic survival. This is not a Darwinian fight of the fittest. It's part of every generation's struggle to define the what kind of world we create for each other.

Meanwhile we can't, and shouldn't be passive about this issue. Let the yelling commence!
John Carr
John Carr
November 12, 2011
Enforcing existing laws is not stabbing China in the back. Publicly, intentionally, dumping products in the US to undermine a US manufacturing industry is stabbing it in the chest. God forbid we complain or protest about it! That might be bad manners. Oh, my.

The economic relationship between the US and China is unhealthy for both economies. We give them cash, they fund our debt through their retirement, and other funds. Their long term investments in the US become less likely to pay off by following the policy of predatory business tactics. Stopping this practice now is best for both countries in the long term. The US did give China a favorable trade status to help them out of what was extreme poverty for nearly 800 million people. We did this even though they were openly hostile, and ideologically miles apart from us.

Looks like they made it. Relationships change. China needs to grow up and figure out you don't starve the cows to get more milk from them. Predatory business is bad for both countries, in either direction. Defending it is a return to feudalism.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 12, 2011
@arny-ahnfeldt
If China was taking a "loss leader approach" or dumping goods at below cost to your strong investments then you would not see yourself as creating a strong China. Instead you would be complaining about your ability to export goods. Think Scrooge effect.
arny ahnfeldt
arny ahnfeldt
November 12, 2011
it is interesting for us in New Zealand to us it seems USA created the rich China you are all against and now are trying to stab them in the back while shaking there hands
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
November 12, 2011
Coalition vs. Coalition: The Solar Trade Dispute Gets Hotter [and Hotter and Hotter...]

There is a time for everything; fighting fire with fire is always definitely a favorite pass-time another old time great is the scorch earth tactic. I don't know, there are just so many. But I tell you the truth, all I really want is to breath fresh air and not having to worry about my children inhaling the sheety mess we left behind. We will do what we have to do to figure it out, we always do. But for once in "our" "life" "time" can we stop thinking of ourselves and consider it all (life as we all will know it to be). We're all going to die that is an inevitable truth. So why can't we just live our lives "fighting" for the right cause. It's the best cause we honor all over the [renewable energy] "world". I might be wrong but I think we all favor the good guys whether wrong or right winning the whole shabang in the books and films we all so passionately become, in "'our' life time", which is historically short of the "glory" we all live to die for.
ANONYMOUS
November 11, 2011
I mentioned economist Ha Joon Chang in my earlier posts. I counted 4 comment makers above who clearly favor doing nothing to reduce imports of panels, even if dumping is occurring. However there were ten people, including myself, who recognize that we must act positively to protect our job and tax base. Some comments were not classifiable, and I excluded them.

This is an interesting result. It was clear to me before Obama was elected that his traditional Keynesian approach to combating our high unemployment would fail. Proactive intervention is necessary.
Interestingly, and predictably, the mindless herd moved to support
the tea party in the mid term elections, stymieing what little good the
hapless and weak Obama was doing with his stimulus programs.
Now we don't know who is going to win the next election, but the
Republican candidates talk of gutting the government, wiping out the
EPA, the Dept. of Energy, the Commerce Dept. (includes the trade
unit that polices dumping), and some other agencies. Additionally, spending is to be slashed, and programs cut.

It seems likely to me that the resulting contraction in employment would cause the economy to collapse into a depression. Today Congress has an approval rating of 9 percent. Obama is at about 44 percent. A plurality of Americans dislike both political parties. There is no third party with a platform of proactive trade and development policy which can resolve our problems. I can tell you that one is on the way. It's purpose is to pick up the pieces left in the wake of the plutocratic free trade policies of the post Nixon era. Hopefully the Republican and Democratic parties will be forced to change, or face political defeat. It is absolutely certain that American decline will continue until we return to the methods of Washington and Lincoln, modified to suit the modern globalized economy. I recommend again that you read Chang. Find out what 'the other canon,' espoused by other economists besides Chang, is.
John Carr
John Carr
November 11, 2011
Phil,
This time, we are the ones being leveraged. What comes around, goes around. Putting that aside, predatory business tactics, like dumping are illegal within the United States. Shall we abandon the rule of law for Chinese profit? That is exactly what they are banking on. Divide and conquer.

We are not in a conventional war with China. We may never be in one with them. More likely, we may, over time, become very close allies. However, they are after our manufacturing because they perceive it to be in their best interest.

Economic wars usually proceed bloody wars. Anonymous is right. Our weakness is dangerous for the entire world. China seeks to weaken our economy just enough to influence our policy. Look at this discussion. We are already divided. The 'new world order' people are so worried about being "protectionist" they won't stand up for our country. Will China stand up for us? Will Iran come to our aid? Will North Korea suddenly play fair? Will Saudi Arabia stop being Islamic? Protecting our shores is the governments job. One of the battle lines is economic warfare from other countries, for both friend and foe alike.

Dumping is against OUR rule of law. This is OUR country. OUR rules. We have to abide by Chinese rules in China. China will follow our laws within our borders. That is reasonable. If it's protectionist, so what. It is the governments job to protect us from foreign threats. Period.

What we are doing is dividing ourselves and inviting thieves in to spend the night. They'll behave. They'll behave like thieves.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 11, 2011
LOL
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
November 11, 2011
I like the dinosaur story. :D 290 million years later, we did what mother nature could not do. Finish the job, total annihalation.
ANONYMOUS
November 10, 2011
Phil, in reply, I am the author of the 'Chang' recommendation comments. We don't have to go to war. It is not racist to lower unemployment and improve our standard of living by resorting to traditional methods that were employed before Bretton Woods and the changes that followed. We are deep in debt, and our debt will just keep rising. Any threat of war with China, and there is none, comes from our growing weakness. The Chinese hunger to take Formosa back. They covet lands beyond Tibet. We do not seek war with China. The idea is utterly absurd. We did not drive the Japanese, Hitler and Mussolini to war. Today should an ugly axis
rise again, we are too broke to do much of anything. We need not
impoverish our people to help other countries develop. We can live
well, and other nations, through high value production, can as well.
China can continue to develop by raising the wages of it's oppressed
people and growing internally. That is what we did. We did not need
exports to become great. Your argument is common, but it is fundamentally unsound.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
November 10, 2011
So, it is presumed far better to unfairly clamp and leverage other country's economy's and then go to war with them. That has always worked so well for everyone. I can't really remember learning in grade school tho, that those who's body's don't look just like ours don't really exist. Must have missed school that day. Was it sex ed that taught "screw everyone". Must be why we seem so fucked up.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 10, 2011
I'm glad the government steps in. They weatherized my apartment free of charge and it resulted in a heating bill that is like getting a pay raise! I have more money to spend on consumer goods and that in turn stimulates the economy. Also, the workers doing the installation made prevailing wages which puts more money spread out and spent faster than one greedy fat cat collecting it all and sitting on it. Secondly, the government stepping in to lower interest rates has helped put me in a position to buy a home at the right opportune time and pay it off before retirement age. However, if our money is siphoned off overseas and the current protectionist attitudes continue in China then my job security is threatened and I will have to probably foreclose on the home I might buy. Besides, news reports reveal that many of their citizens are treated like crap and paid very little. On the flip side of the coin I wonder how well our own companies established over there pay the workers in comparison to the other entities there? One could argue that greedy corp execs set a bad precedent!
ANONYMOUS
November 10, 2011
I wrote the comment above that recommends reading Ha Joon Chang, the economist at Cambridge. I am not responsible for all the postings that are generically attributed to 'anonymous.' Each comment by an anonymous contributor has to be viewed in that light.

I will add to my earlier comment that Obama argued during his campaign that investing in solar and wind power would be a good way to boost the economy, reduce unemployment, and confront the problem of global warming. There are many other advantages to producing the equipment domestically. If we lose our manufacturing
base to the low wage countries, there will be no jobs coming from some new miracle industries to replace them. We will have lost the true source of wealth, and we will be a poor, broken country. The process is already well under way. We have lived off borrowing for decades now. Reagan's tax cut and spend methods were the reason his budget director, David Stockman accused him of 'voodoo
economics.' His prosperity was a false prosperity. Decline
accelerated under his reign. Clinton relied on a stock market bubble
which was inflated by his wise deficit free, debt reducing budgets.
But, Clinton did nothing to stem the giant sucking sound of our
manufacturing base being removed to Asia. Also, Clinton continued loosening Wall Street regulations, and Bush II finished the deregulation of Wall Street, which directly caused the 2008 meltdown. Then Bush, the great advocate of free markets and limited government broke the back of his absurd ideology by wisely
intervening and bailing out the banks. It did not erase his culpability.
I suggest you all read those two books. I have read dozens of them, but those two are a decent beginning. I read all the stuff pro and con. I keep an open mind. The country is in trouble, deep trouble.
Our great past, so horribly misrepresented by the financial media,
and Wall Street, points the way to a better future.
Bob Hostetter
Bob Hostetter
November 10, 2011
A portion of subsidies to Big Energy should be reappropriated to the subsidization of Residential PV installations, required to be built using modules made in the US, or at least ARRA compliant. Wins for consumers and US manufacturers, and installers make out as well. CASM is shaking some trees that need shaken, and hopefully a viable compromise will be the result.

http://www.change.org/petitions/secretary-of-energy-dr-steven-chu-reappropriate-big-energy-subsidies-cover-50-of-cost-of-home-pv-systems
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
November 10, 2011
The Valley of the Bones was not meant for scavenging beasts.
ANONYMOUS
November 10, 2011
I don't think you folks clearly see what's happening here. Lumos is a distributor of Chinese products. Canadian Solar is owned by China, yingli, big chinese solar company. I wouldn't call this an american coalition!!
Robert Hilbun
Robert Hilbun
November 10, 2011
If our government subsidises solar thru tax incentives and other programs it's OK. If China does it it's all the suppen dumping. Capitalism is a down and dirty game we made up and now we are getting are asses handed to us. We want to change the rules in the middle of the game and play fair. Capitalism is never fair, underselling the other guy to put him out of business is just part of the game. Where is our Wall Street team of zillionairs to subsidise our industry and break China? What is the global economy about again?
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 10, 2011
Simpleenergy One major flaw in your arguments

You try to create this myth that somehow there's only 'them and us'

The bad old government and the benign,pure as the driven snow,just making a buck,job creator class.

Are you living in a cave?

The US government and many other governments around the world are simply captive and obedient servants of what is now called the %1.The so called job creators. (talk about a myth)

This contemporary form of Mussolini's Fascism has only accelerated to a higher level since Saint Ronnie admonished us for seeking help from OUR evil government.
Of course this 'warm and fuzzy' smooth talking fool elevated the national debt from less than 900 billion to over 3 trillion in only 8 years. Yes I suppose he did actually hate OUR government.

Money is power and power is money. It follows then that if you hold all the money you hold all the power.

Governments have no money therefore they have only the power that the powerful bestows on it or the power delegated to it by the governed.Government power to keep at bay the economic royalist predators that have always sought ultimate power should never be abdicated by the governed.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Abandon your one and only buffer between the 'Masters of the Universe' (banksters and multinational corporations)and the common citizen and you have submitted to feudalism and economic slavery.

Fall for the Masters constant refrain that it's government that is the problem and you will have surrendered willingly without a fight.

Personally I would rather fight my government for redress than try to fight an amorphous, secretive and devious entity called corporations where any redress of a grievance boils down to bowing down and begging for scraps falling from their overloaded plates. Yes. Saint Ronnie and Milton Friedman's perverted 'trickle down economics'.

No thank you.
Not interested in being a loyal subject of WalMart.
John Carr
John Carr
November 10, 2011
"We need no protection from dumping"

Were you born yesterday?
Business is a contact sport.
OUR government is SUPPOSED to be in OUR corner!
Where the *#!! is our government?
DOA.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out, when you buy from China the cash moves from your pocket to theirs. Not real complicated. It's a MACRO economic problem caused by a lot of people. These people, most of us, care more about the 5 bucks they just saved than about their country, much less their neighbors jobs. Not one of them really believes they are doing much harm.

The Chinese solar companies didn't earn their way into our economy. Their prices are subsidized below manufacturing costs.

However, good ole' carpet baggers always make money!
Let's have a fire sale on US made goods.
We don't need no stinkin' manufacturing!

This is economic warfare. If you don't get it, you will lose. Governments fight wars, that's their job. If our companies go it alone, they will be cut down by the Chinese GOVERNMENT. Just look around. It's not about CAPITALISM. China is COMMUNIST. They don't follow our rules.

While our back is up against the wall the 'cheaper is better' crowd are licking their lips waiting for China to buy the largest economy on the planet, one company at a time. Once the standard of living rises in China, do you think prices will stay low? No. But by then, our manufacturing will be gone. The prices rise. It's Continental Baking all over again.
This is PREDICTABLE.

What do you care? They are cheaper NOW. Is that what's really important?

With your help, subsidized communist foreign businesses will do what 11 million soldiers and armies could not. Conquer the free world.
Mike Shaw
Mike Shaw
November 10, 2011
@Simpleenergy,
While I agree with much of what you say, I disagree with your inclusion of entitlement programs among those who are bankrupt. The entitlement programs are named such becuase a tax on earnings supports them, and they are far from bankrupt. Is there waste and outright fraud among those programs? Most assuredly, becuase those among us who only think of themselves take advantage of the largesse of others. Which is why we need a government that is at least as strong as the any, or all, of the corporations.
randy velker
randy velker
November 10, 2011
GaryRich,

I don't understand your point. All of those terrible things that you mention (including our current bankruptcy) have been cause by gov't intervention in the markets. (ie Fed involved in low interest rates sending incorrect signals to house buyers leading to housing bubble, etc.)

Look at the auto industry, who cried for (and got) gov't intervention to protect them from the "japanese" carmakers. What a total tragedy.

I am saying keep the government as far away from the renewable energy industry as possible. They will screw it all up if they start trying to "level the playing field". We don't want to follow Detroit and Flint into oblivion by taking a protectionist mentality.

Bankruptcies suck, but our federal gov't has buried themselves. We are already bankrupt. We just haven't had the estate sale yet because people still think we can somehow work our way out of it. Our wars and our fed and our entitlement society have already bankrupted us. Notice that all 3 of those things mentioned are from gov't intervention in market forces.

The market will be here long after this gov't is replaced.

The market is simply one guy giving value to another in exchange for some other value.

We have had crony capitalism, protectionism, interventionism (and gunboat diplomacy) for so long we have forgotten what a true market looks like.

We are in this PV module mess because the Chinese gov't has invested over $45 billion in their own manufacturing capabilities. So now they can manufacture like crazy. Let's enjoy the benefits (low prices & good quality) that come from their prior investment. It's a subsidy to us.

Our gov't has decided NOT to give cheap money to our manufacturers (for whatever reason) so we are way behind. Don't slap a tariff on Chinese goods now in order to "level the playing field". It is no longer level.
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 10, 2011
@Simpleenergy
According to Wikipedia our country was 14.94 Trillion dollars in debt as of October 22nd, 2011.
How much would we have to borrow to have enough solar and other renewables to be free of hydrocarbon based energy/fuels?
How many hydrocarbon jobs would be lost and their level of wealth?
Would the savings in energy expenditures be enough to accept a lower wage job that would compete with those who make a few bucks an hour?
Are you ready for Real Estate valuation to plummet to potentially 10% of existing values?
How about the debts that can't be erased from bankruptcy?
Defaulting mortgages?
Consider the trade imbalance between USA and China.
Also, the restrictions placed on our companies trying to earn a buck over there.
Who is going to buy from us so we can pay off that debt?
Maybe we can let inflation skyrocket and screw over those who lended to us.
Then watch our savings become useless and companies become limited in their ability to loan money.
But who would they borrow from?
Gary Richardson
Gary Richardson
November 10, 2011
@Simpleenergy
According to Wikipedia our country was 14.94 Trillion dollars in debt as of October 22nd, 2011.
How much would we have to borrow to have enough solar and other renewables to be free of hydrocarbon based energy/fuels?
How many hydrocarbon jobs would be lost and their level of wealth?
Would the savings in energy expenditures be enough to accept a lower wage job that would compete with those who make a few bucks an hour?
Are you ready for Real Estate valuation to plummet to potentially 10% of existing values?
How about the debts that can't be erased from bankruptcy?
Defaulting mortgages?
Consider the trade imbalance between USA and China.
Also, the restrictions placed on our companies trying to earn a buck over there.
Who is going to buy from us so we can pay off that debt?
Maybe we can let inflation skyrocket and screw over those who lended to us.
Then watch our savings become useless and companies become limited in their ability to loan money.
But who would they borrow from?
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
November 9, 2011
Indwelt Peace my good mesonauts. That is what this world needs. Justly to live without. I know, I know easier said than done but overall it has to start somewhere where no one is looking with such terms or "reality".
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 9, 2011
Anonymous you are hitting on all cylinders

What do you get when you take a generous dose of mindless free trade conservatism?

When you add a more than generous amount of criminal activity,crony capitalism and wealth destruction known as the Defense Department or more appropriately labeled the Worldwide War and Profiteering Department.

Then add a pinch of Dumb Down powder ( Limbaugh,Fox Channel etc)

Bake for about 30 years (since Saint Reagan) in a heated oven of irrational fear and hatred of all things new or misunderstood and herding of the sheep to then burn incense at the altar of The Cult of Conservatism.

Now try to enjoy this burned out,dry as a cracker, indigestible and toxic concoction known as Third World America.

Welcome to the world of conservatism.

Recipe is old and tried many times before (try 1929, 1893 etc)
Results are always the same and very predictable.
ANONYMOUS
November 9, 2011
I can't compete with 5 buck a day workers, nobody in developed countries can. My wealthy Wall Street friend actually told me that as soon as they finish killing off the unions they will bring industry back. It was an incredible admission as he had always relied on the now debunked comparative advantage theory. The problem is that greed has no limits, and after the unions are completely wiped out, our national decline will continue.
Something is going to give, and I hope it doesnt affect me, but I have a bad feeling it will.
randy velker
randy velker
November 9, 2011
We need no protection from "dumping."

Why not load up on these low priced goods (like Phil said) and build out our solar industry across America? Solar is 1/10th of 1% or so of our energy mix. Why not take these low priced panels and build out.

What if these Chinese (who are currently being hurt themselves- ie layoffs- by the low prices) decided to simply GIVE a 2kw PV system to every American household. Would that also be illegal? Or is simply lowering prices illegal and immoral?

In this day and age with information flowing instantly and capital chasing opportunities in days (not years) is it even possible to have a monopoly (YES) and then to raise prices to benefit from that monopoly? (NO)

In other words: Monopolies are not evil, (unless created by forcefully restricting the competition), and as soon as they start to raise prices then the competition will come out of the woodwork to uncut them. The market will tear the monopoly to shreds (think of IBM). Unless a "monopoly" continues to give great value they will die the death of all under-performing companies.

If China is slapping tariffs on American goods those should be removed immediately. If this complaint is only a "tit for tat" response to those tariffs (which doesn't seem likely) well let's make sure there are no tariffs going either way (which would help American manufacturing). Adding one coming this way will not help the scenario.

In this industry you better bring your thickest skin, because competition is fierce. I am wondering if the bulk of Americans have the backbone to compete anymore (as per Larry's comments).
John Carr
John Carr
November 9, 2011
Dumping is not a new tactic. Continental Bakery aka, 'Wonder Bread' used the same method to drive their competition under during the 'robber baron' period in the early 1900's. They had deep pockets, so they would build a bakery in a town, sell at under the manufacturing costs until all the competition went into bankruptcy. Then, Continental Bakery bought them. Shortly thereafter, they would raise the price to recoup their losses. Voila! A monopoly!
When a company does this it is called a PREDATORY BUSINESS. We have laws against this, and for good reason.
Now, Chinese companies are engaging in the same behavior as good ole' Wonder Bread. This time the predator's banker is the Chinese Government. Their goal is clear. Wipe out the competition. The competition is both U.S. and European solar companies. Chinese low prices are NOT for the benefit of the consumer! Impossibly low prices are the bullets.
Don't mistake this for competition!
They are not competing. They are losing. Deliberately.
It's a race to see who can bleed the most before someone goes under. With the nearly unlimited bankroll of the Chinese Government, ALL private competitors will go under eventually without intervention.
They know this. They can wait. But waiting is how you lose if you're the little guy.
We should enforce the laws of this country at its boundary and not allow other country's companies to prey on ours by engaging in predatory business tactics.
They are both illegal and unethical.
Antonio Found
Antonio Found
November 9, 2011
@larryofgalaxy I am very interested in your situation please keep us posted. And thank you all for your passion and part on trying to figure out how to save the only world we have. Well, for now at least. But it would help knowing what to do with the next one if we ever get there. I am very hopeful though!
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 9, 2011
For arguments sake, as much as I like cheap solar panels I must agree with Anon about tariffs. My point earlier was the solution to tariffs is to manufacture locally. That can firmly support local American jobs and economy, and I never understood why the US demoralized its self to be paid off allowing free trade. I see wanting the cheap panels as an adolescent decision and wanting American jobs and local production as an adult decision. There will still be some B panels available for the likes of us cheap-skates.

But the problem is deeper, as per Larryofgalaxy. A basic disconnect exists within most American's minds as to morality of the workplace. As President Kennedy said, "Don't ask what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country."
Chris Brosz
Chris Brosz
November 9, 2011
Are any of the CASE members American PV manufacterers? Aside from a few US divisions of Chinese manufacterers (e.g. Trina Solar U.S., etc) all i see is integrators and developers, all of whom are panel agnostic and benefit from reduced panel costs, regardless of where they were manufactured... Not a very convincing group... Would be much more powerful if there were American PV manufacturers among the fray...

Sun Edison, Recurrent Energy, Alpine Solar Energy, LLC, AltPOWER, Inc., American Solar Systems, Inc., Canadian Solar, Carbon War Room, Carolina Solar Energy LLC, Gaia Worldwide, LLC, groSolar, Lighthouse Solar, Lumos, MEMC/SunEdison, PetersenDean, Recurrent Energy, Rochlin Corporation, Russell Pacific, Solar City, SolarFirst, Inc., Sungevity, Suntech America, SunRun, Syncarpha Solar, LLC., Trina Solar U.S. Inc., Verengo, Westinghouse Solar and Yingli Americas
ANONYMOUS
November 9, 2011
I am pleased to see the interest in and discussion of the dumping complaint. I have been reading books on the subject of international trade for a few years now, and I have learned a lot more than I knew from taking an International Econ course thirty seven years ago in college. One thing I know for certain, and all of you probably know, is that America was a protectionist state from the beginning. From Washington and Hamilton's famous policy of nurturing 'infant industies,' to Lincoln, whose protectionist policy helped the Northern economy grow ten times in size during the civil war, and clearly helped win the war. Did you know that the average American tariff
on manufactured goods between 1830 and 1945 was 46%? The great American economist Daniel Raymond described protectionist
policies as the 'American System of Manufactures.' Protectionism is
undoubtedly responsible for America's survival as a state and it's
meteoric rise to global economic dominance and victory in two world
wars. Protectionism is also the reason America was first to the
Atomic bomb.
You should all become familiar with the books 'Bad Samaritans, The
Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism,' and '23
Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.' Both books are by a
Cambridge economist of international fame, Ha Joon Chang. You
should also know that virtually all economists admit that the theory of
free trade is deductively, which is to say, mathematically, invalid. There is a growing movement to junk it, and start over. The unhappiness of the middle class with our economic policies is evident in polls, and the anger of large numbers of people is even more manifest in the emergence of the Occupy Wall Street movement. I have become convinced that continuing on our path of deindustrialization, which has clearly contributed mightily to our gargantuan national debt, our high unemployment, and decades of declining wages, will lead to even more catastrophic failure.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 9, 2011
I have been developing some unique solar products lately.
Calls to most suppliers of necessary materials in this country go unanswered for days,weeks or they never do get back to me.
Those who do call back are generally not well informed about the product they sell and have poor communication skills.
Most appear to be annoyed that I even contacted them.Perhaps I'm interrupting their daily use of the company computer to view porn.

On the other hand here is my experience with the Chinese suppliers.

I have to beat them off with a stick. Like smacking a hornets nest,my inquiries are followed up by hordes of companies all fiercely competing for attention.

Downsides?
I received two 2kw grid tie inverters for evaluation.
Shipped free,airfreight overnight. One did not work out of the box.The other worked for one week and then literally flamed out.
Poor design of connections on the bulkhead MC4's.Passed ETL with flying colors by the way.
Now even though I don't respond to them anymore just learned I have another coming for evaluation.

How about a Korean company wanting our steel structure business bad enough they shipped 1700lbs of material for evaluation using air freight.What did that cost?

Galvanizing lousy. Three of the welded parts in the wrong location. Upside down relative to the drawing specs.

How about this one.
Large order to a local company (all Chinese owned and operated by the way) who low bid. First order was okay when fabricated locally. Next order brought over from China?
Most of the fabrication was so bad it was rejected.

New orders going to local company owned by Americans? Excellent quality,fast and good communications.
More expensive? No! Higher prices? Yes!

Moral of the story?

Keep it local stupid.

With 1.3 billion Chinese they have more than enough local market.

OOPS. Forgot. They don't pay them enough to buy their own products.

Just government/corporate slaves. Don't 'need no stinkin solar'.
Douglas Prince
Douglas Prince
November 9, 2011
Solarworld's German HQ is also considering filing charges against China in the EU courts, basically saying the same thing - China is dumping its product in Germany to undermine their consumer base.

This has been a classic pattern of Chinese production for decades. I don't know why this comes a such a surprise to so many people. The Chinese government purposely undervalues its currency so their products sell for the cheapest possible price WORLDWIDE, not just in the US. At the same time, they impose high import tariffs on foreign goods while state-supporting their manufacturing industry, no matter what is being manufactured.

The only logical response is higher tariffs on all Chinese products and outright blockage of those products deemed dangerous to the general populace. Remember the baby milk and children's toys fiascos of the last few years?

Screw China. We can always buy Canadian, German, or, here's a thought, American-made product. Price be damned, there's bigger issues here.
Mark Jacobs
Mark Jacobs
November 9, 2011
Phil: I agree with a lot you are saying; however, I don't think capitalism comes from Wall Street. Wall Street is simply legalized gambling that has gotten out of hand and doesn't have enough oversight (yet another example of where the government needs to step in). I'm not into big government whatsoever, but there is a time and place for it to step in.

Of course Capitalism isn't written into the constitution. The constitution was written to regulate government, not the people (but that's another topic). Capitalism is an expression of what a free western society evolved into once feudalism was removed. It is not a legal structure or a law, but a expression of what a society does when oppression is removed and ultimately what has brought so much wealth to this country. Unfortunately, Corporate oppression is still out there and that is one place the government should step in.

Its great to buy US products with all other things equal, but I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say that my pocket book dictates where I buy. The problem is that our government chose to subsidize solar panel "purchases" while the Chinese government chose to subsidize solar panel manufacturing. Gee, I wonder who will end up with the manufacturing jobs...
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 9, 2011
'Of course Chasm has it's supporters too: Those special interests who want protection and those few hundred low skilled laborer's in Georgia'

SolarWorld in Hillsboro employs over 1000 Oregonians and god only knows how many across the US.
The majority of these employees make a decent yet not excessive wage and contribute to the local economy.
Each dollar they earn and spend generates 3 or 4 more dollars for others whose jobs depend on this revenue.

How about the millions and millions of dollars and jobs generated domestically along the vendor chain SolarWorld supports.

Saving a few cents on a Chinese module will not make or break the solar industry.Rising wages for the real 'job creators' would mean a lower relative cost of solar and do more to advance the industry. An unemployed person cannot afford solar no matter how cheap it is.

There's more to save on solar systems by simply reducing the onerous codes,and excessive permitting fees as well as UL and NEC trying to make 'perfect the enemy of the good' than you will save by importing Chinese modules of questionable quality.

So your image of a bunch of Georgia 'bumpkins' drinking moonshine and making panels is simply irrelevant to a rational and well thought out discussion of the issues.

Simple solutions to complex problems simply require simple minds simply thinking .

Mark-Hadley's comments are far more relevant and really the '8000 lb elephant in the room' everyone seems oblivious to.

The devils always in the details isn't it.
Phil Manke
Phil Manke
November 9, 2011
MarkJacobs; Capitolism is 'wall streets' way, not the American. There is nothing supporting it in the USA Constitution, but rather to be checked by the government instead of subsidized by it. The Federal banking establishment is an extention of this monetary corruption of what is intended to be civil govt.
China was invited by Nixon to supply the USA with it's cheap goods using willingly supplied US tech (at the same time taking the gold standard from our currency). If we really believe they are unfairly dumping cheap solar on the US markets (and the rest of the world), then we should buy all we possibly can and enable the end user and the installer level job production to take it's place in the benefit chain.
If our elite government subsidized anything it should allow the SREC trade to use carbon credits currently paid by Ute's to their own wind and hydro RE investments to be paid, via a solar carveout, to the solar end user energy production market. Then we all could benefit and the solar installation industry would flourish here. It has a long way to develope. There is percentage wise, virtually no solar adoption visable across our land.
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 9, 2011
The reason I had to go to China in 2002 and build a factory was our manufactured goods made in America and Europe were hit with a Chinese tariff so steep that we could not compete in the Chinese market. We had to manufacture in China with local labor and raw materials to compete. I don't know how that relates to this article, but I hear no one arguing this unbalanced trade fact.
Andrew Truitt
Andrew Truitt
November 9, 2011
I've heard that another issue at play is the fraudulent UL labeling of modules by Chinese manufacturers. Has anyone seen any credible evidence of this?
ANONYMOUS
November 9, 2011
Ultimatly China, as is Mexicco, is an energy source for us. It allow us to have oversized homes, a gas guzzling car for every person, and to have are kids sit around, get fat, take drugs, and play computer games all day.
Mark Jacobs
Mark Jacobs
November 9, 2011
If you put patriotism aside and look at the situation from the viewpoint of whether an agreement was broken, I believe the allegations should be investigated fully. This isn't about wrapping a flag around myself, but it is about enforcing agreements. I'm not one to whine about helping the poor American panel manufacturers compete because they "deserve" a chance. If we can compete in a free market, then great. If not, then we can't; but a free market needs to be free from bit corporations(and countries) doing illegal things. Capitalism is the American way and we'd be hypocritical to do it any other way.

I certainly don't like the fact that this may effect the solar market one bit, but if China is breaking agreements/laws by dumping panels, this needs to be discovered and fixed. Otherwise there will be ramifications later on. Pay now or pay later. America was founded on capitalism and in almost every case I think the government should butt-out; however, corporations can play pretty dirty and I'm sure countries (ie. China) aren't above that. The one time that government needs to step in is if there are broken agreements that can impact the players.

If there was an American company that was dumping panels on the market at below manufacturing prices with the intent to drive other panel makers out of business and gain a monopoly, you bet that company would be investigated; so why is China any different? We need to let the government investigate and stop being so dramatic about it. I'd hate for the investigation to be tainted by the public opinion because everyone thinks their opinion is right without knowing all the facts. The (first) coalition asked for an investigation and they should get a fair investigation without any interference from the American public.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 9, 2011
Just remember that Solar World almost stole the facility they have here in Hillsborough Oregon. I believe they acquired a $150 million dollar factory ideally suited to production of silicon wafers with built in infrastructure and low electricity costs for about $40 million.

With that big an advantage,and they still cannot for some reason compete head to head with China? What does that say for the fate of any other manufacturing in this country.

I have a solar product ready for production that could be an industry game changer and am very reluctant to set up manufacturing here in the US due to the artificial advantage China as a communist 'planned economy' country now has.

If I'm reluctant then how many others in the US feel the same.

Is there any wonder the American middle class is an endangered species?

Hiring a bunch of laborers to robotically install a bunch of 'cheap' Chinese panels,with any real profit (treasury grants)from the project first coming out of taxes paid by these same laborers, then going to a select (overpaid) elite at the top,does not a sustainable renewable's industry make.

And it certainly does not sustain and foster the very middle class that drives the need for the solar panels in the first place.
randy velker
randy velker
November 9, 2011
So we can now wrap ourselves in the American flag and cry "foul" when the Chinese drive the prices down. From our "flagged" position we feel so self-righteous that by punishing China (with a tariff) we will be somehow helping low skilled factory job Americans.

How many of the "flag wearers" have cell phones made in the US? How many are watching large screen TV's made in the US? Answer: NONE.

Why is that? Because none have been made in the US for years. It is not even possible to get a Zenith or RCA (American Brands) that are not made in Asia. So what! We allowed them to corner the market because they are willing to produce good quality items at such low prices. We both benefit. Actually every person who uses a cell phone is benefiting from the downward price push provided by the Asian manufacturers.

Because they have a corner on the market have they now raised the prices to gouge us? (as everyone predicted Walmart would definitely do)?

We shouldn't waste everyone's time and money trying to stick a tariff on cell phones or TV's in order to prop up some cell phone or TV factory in Georgia which would provide a few hundred low skilled (and low paying) factory jobs.

If this new coalition could count supporters it would be every potential solar customer in America who is waiting on solar to be just a bit more reasonable. Other supporters would include every solar installer who understands that their jobs depend upon the downward direction of a complete solar install. Other supporters would be those fiercely competitive Asians who are willing to forgoe large profits and sell with the tiniest of margins.

Of course Chasm has it's supporters too: Those special interests who want protection and those few hundred low skilled laborer's in Georgia. Also those who love to wear the American flag and pretend that protectionism is Patriotic.
Roy Browning
Roy Browning
November 9, 2011
Looks like a substantial part of this new opposition is American subsidiaries of Chinese companies or partly owned by the Chinese.

Kind of takes the edge off credibility does it not?
Mike Shaw
Mike Shaw
November 9, 2011
You're absolutely right, Mark. The Asians, in general, take the longer approach, are willing to take twenty years to earn that first million. In America too many of us want the million in five to seven years. Capitalism afer all, is based on greed.
Ed Woll
Ed Woll
November 9, 2011
Shame on CASE, I for one will not purchase from any distributor that joins CASE.

We need more manufacturing jobs in America. Let the facts be heard, if they are dumping, that is wrong. We already know US manufacturers are at a disadvantage compared to the Chinese with environmental regulations. Yet our natural gas industry is able to avoid the clean water act with many loop holes for frac'ing. I'd rather our business be set back a few years in support of made in America!

It's time we look beyond the next quarters bottom line.
Mark Hadley
Mark Hadley
November 9, 2011
Having lived in China for a year and building a factory there for production of a product to target Pacific Rim countries, I can guess that possibly at the heart of this problem is that China industry is content with profits of a few dollars per panel, targeting volume for profit. US companies prefer hundreds of dollars per panel, targeting greed instead of volume. Besides, if there are Chinese government subsidies to manufactures at work here, although I think it's a little more complex than that, why not take back some of our Wal-Mart dollars to power our country with solar panels for a half century or more. You can't tell me the US manufacturers, with all their tax incentives, gov. loan guarantees and grants are not also subsidized. Looks to me like everyone plays in the same sandbox already.
Thomas Skorka
Thomas Skorka
November 9, 2011
I totally agree with you electric38. Its a shame that a movement, that is so promising for our environment, is turned into a political debate. Governments full of oil-interested politicians have now the power (and will probably use it) to further hamper the development of green energy.
Ralph Perez
Ralph Perez
November 9, 2011
Great... keep prices artificially high so more Americans can watch the sun come up every day without benefiting from the free energy it has to offer - because they cannot afford it on their rooftops. Oil and utility companies must be laughing hysterically at this move.

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Steve Leone

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Steve Leone has been a journalist for more than 15 years and has worked for news organizations in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia and California.
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