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Is Occupy Wall Street Occupying the Wrong Street?

Elisa Wood
October 28, 2011  |  85 Comments

Print

My Dad and I have a running joke when we’re in the car together. “Look,” he’ll say. “Gas is cheap. It’s down to $3.39.” Cheap, he means, compared with the month before when it was $3.79 per gallon.

The joke illustrates a good point. A few years ago we were flabbergasted by gasoline prices that exceeded $3 per gallon. Now we’re really happy when it doesn’t hit $4 per gallon.

When it comes to energy, we’re like frogs in water coming to a slow boil. We’ve gotten so accustomed to high oil prices, we don’t notice anymore that we’re cooked.

In my two decades writing about energy, this is one of the most poignant facts I’ve run across: Oil price spikes preceded 10 of our 11 last recessions.  This statistic portrays in a nutshell the grip that petroleum holds on us.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not letting the banks off the hook.  But by focusing so much passion on the banks in casting blame for today’s economic downturn, is Occupy Wall Street letting a major culprit slink off unnoticed down the alley?

The Econbowser.com, source of the 10 out of 11 stat, says that in 2008 high oil prices caused a drop in overall spending, which served as “the knockout punch for an economy that was already wobbly.” The article goes on to say that “there’s no question that more favorable fundamentals are exactly what we would have had if the price of oil had never gone over $100 a barrel.”

But there’s good news too. When oil prices are high, the innovators emerge. And that’s what is happening today. Over the last few months I’ve run into some pretty intriguing – possibly game changing – new energy technologies. Here are a few.

This week I interviewed Riggs Eckleberry, CEO or OriginOil, a company that has found a highly efficient way to harvest algae and extract its oil, a process that takes advantage of algae’s sensitivity to electrical fields. The approach promises to save both energy and water in processing algae. As Eckleberry puts it, algae is a renewable “petroleum that is being made fresh instead of fossilized.” He sees algae becoming an important part of the energy mix in the short-term and a serious competitor to petroleum in the long term.

In working on an article for an upcoming issue of Renewable Energy World magazine, I learned about Dyesol, an Australian company that uses dye sensitive solar products to generate electricity.  Dyesol describes the process as ‘artificial photosynthesis.’ It uses an electrolyte, in this case a layer of titania (a pigment used in white paints and tooth paste) and ruthenium dye sandwiched between glass in a window. Light strikes the dye and excites electrons that are absorbed by the titania to become an electric current many times stronger than that found in plant photosynthesis. The window creates electricity using both the artificial light in the building and the sunshine outdoors.

Meanwhile, Swapnil Shah, CEO of FirstFuel, described to me how his company conducts in-depth energy audits on commercial buildings without ever setting foot in the building. FirstFuel’s analytics software offers a “zero touch” alternative to cumbersome building energy audits. Already being used by several utilities, the software program also provides specific recommendations for efficiency improvements. To run its analytics, FirstFuel only requires easily accessible information about the building, such as its billing history and address. The program relies on the Web and GPS to obtain the rest of the data it needs. (More on FirstFuel in next week’s blog.)

Innovators like these folks worry that when oil prices drop, investors and policymakers will lose interest in finding energy alternatives. It’s a pattern we’ve fallen into before. Just as high oil prices precede recessions, low oil prices precede periods of apathy. Maybe we’ve been cooked enough this time to reverse the pattern.

The information and views expressed in this blog post are solely those of the author and not necessarily those of RenewableEnergyWorld.com or the companies that advertise on this Web site and other publications. This blog was posted directly by the author and was not reviewed for accuracy, spelling or grammar.

85 Comments

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greg chick
greg chick
November 12, 2011
Good point Harry, exactly the problem in US, most of us get our thoughts on things from TV. It is easy, we just echo that which we identify with regardless if we have any other reason to believe it is true. I think a Barbie Doll could convince a bunch of people of anything if she was an actress, Reagan was an actor, he was very successful in this. Pero was not an actor, he was not a Pres. either. We would not be in this financial position if he got elected. My vote is for Jon Stewart.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 12, 2011
'Before you criticize the Austrian model you perhaps need to spend a little more time studing it and stop watching TV'

I have not owned or watched a TV for over 22 years. I'm quite certain you cannot make that claim.
As a matter of fact I would almost bet you your TV or TV's are all tuned permanently to Fox Propaganda Channel. Come on now.Be honest. Remember the worst person you can lie to is yourself.

Also I have a collection of books large enough that they have their own room. Many of these books concern economics. Another large percentage of them concern history.

American history and more specifically American political history.

Now here is where you voluntarily 'stepped in it' up to your neck.

'as long as they don't not take away the rights of others'
(no not the typo)

So who is the mythical 'they'?

And you as this totally liberated,'pulls himself up by my own bootstraps libertarian';
please enlighten all of us on just what method you would use to enforce the following of these 'rules' you speak of.

Either you use a gun and enforce your own rules with all of the chaos and mayhem that involves, or you in fact create that evil government you hate and then petition it for redress.

As for the ineffective government you speak.
Does it really surprise you that government consistently screws up when folks like you vote in brain dead criminals such as the Bush Crime Family? Or the dottering fool known as Saint Ronnie?

These so called administrations preached from their government pulpit the evils of government and how much they hated it.

If someone constantly preached that they hate children and despise everything about them would you expect them to somehow end up being ideal parents?

Just remember that the Antebellum South before the civil war was a libertarian paradise. A few rich aristocrats,millions of black slaves,and the rest were white illiterates as dirt poor as the floors they slept on.

Libertarianism = Feudalism and slavery.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 12, 2011
You have so many assumptions that are wrong it's amazing. Let's just take two issues. (1.)Libertarians believe in the protection of individual rights. An Individual has the right to go out in the world and do anything he wants; "as long as they don't not take away the rights of others. If that doesn't invoke rules that curtails the harming of other poeple and their property including the air and water, in you mind, than you don't even understand the basics of individual rights. (2.) Yhe Clean air and water acts of the early 1900's set standards. Based on your last statement, everyone died prior to then and since than the world has been saved by such regulations. I drink purified bottled water because I have read the scientific testing of the tap water coming from the governments water purification plants and it is unfit to drink. The chlorine in my shower is so strong at times that it forces me to rush my bathing. If I weren't forced to pay for it I wouldn't.

Before you criticize the Austrian model you perhaps need to spend a little more time studing it and stop watching TV where a good percentage of the material coming from the talking heads is ment to mislead and confuse.
greg chick
greg chick
November 11, 2011
Most people get their ideas/political beliefs from TV. Most don't know that W/O government control of Water Standards we would be dead. I have ben self employed over 35 yrs. and assist write Plumbing Standards/Codes that cost the people money. It is needed.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 11, 2011
"Since you have probably never run a business, you would not know the negative ramafications placed on business by excessive taxation and regulation."


Harry you could not be more incorrect here.

I'm all too familiar with excessive taxation and regulation as pertaining to small and medium sized business.I have fought them for years.

What I will not accept is the canard of excessive taxation and regulation as pertaining to massive multinational corporations who through crony capitalism literally write the regulations that drive small business over the cliff.

I'm quite aware of the Libertarian philosophy that simply eliminating government intervention into what they call a free market will create an economic Nirvana. Some folks also believe in the tooth fairy as well but believing something does not make it so.

The world of business does not exist inside a vacuum. Not all economic activity is benign and universally beneficial .

Therefore since business has to exist for the benefit of all to be of any real value to society it must be subject to the desires of society as a whole in order for it to exist.

Libertarianism is similar to holding a football game where there are no rules. The larger players can simply decide arbitrarily that the goal post is effectively at the 20 yard line and therefore you did not in fact make a touchdown.

That's silly you say?
Well if there are no rules or in this case someone to enforce them what kind of game would you be playing. At some point there would be an uproar from the fans to establish rules and hire officials to enforce them.

That's essentially what government is. Officials.

Now can the officials become corrupt and join forces with one team or another to pre determine winners and losers? Of course. But you don't get rid of the officials position. You simply change officials and then ride herd over them on a continuous basis.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 11, 2011
LarryofGalaxy
http://rsjexperiment.wordpress.com/ Read this recent post written by a friend of mine and it will help you to understand one of the core problems facing our country.

By the way, "No" economist has ever been able to argue rationally against Austrian Economics when peer reviewed and the Keynesians have surely tried. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong and just because you may embrace some belief, surely doesn't necessarily make it right. I can tell from all you writing that you have some ideas that are incorrect and therefore you are unable to understand how we might solve many of our social problems. Had the U.S. embraced libertainism whem we told you what was going to happen, why and what to do to stop it from happening, we would not have to be discussing these issues when it is possible to late. It should be noted that we told you specifically that the country was going to have the exact problems it is now facing. Have you ever asked yourself the question, how did we know? I knew 25 years ago that the U.S. would suffer it's current fate if we didn't make some drastic changes.

Since you have probably never run a business, you would not know the negative ramafications placed on business by excessive taxation and regulation. Why do you think that we cannot compete with many foreign producers. We have the second highest corporate tax rates in the world and you surely know many of the regulatory mandates stiffle business and entreprenerial efforts. The water turbine I invented is being placed in a foreign juresdiction due to burdenson US regs. http://haeturbines.com

You know I'm a liberatrian and libertarianism is in direct opposition to fascism that is why I only vote for libertarains such as Ron Paul. I never vote for anyone unless they are a LIB and I do not vote for the lesser of two evils.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 8, 2011
By the way it's over 41,000 closed factories and not 4100

In practically every case they were not moved due to unfair taxation since US companies have never been taxed at a lower effective rate (don't believe the phony canard of %35 since few if any companies pay it)nor were they moved due to regulations (remember that European countries such as Germany have far more stiff regulation and still out compete us on real manufacturing).

No they moved the factories for one reason.

GREED.

If you can manufacture in China or other country for a fraction of the cost of manufacturing here,and then import and sell for essentially the same price it would cost to manufacture here you would do it. Right?

You would if you were a sociopath like most multinational CEO's

Almost an unwritten requirement you know.

So Harry enjoy your Fascist Oligarchy.

Just remember that both political parties (two parties and one agenda) gave you this wonderful system.

Now go vote conservative (Fascist) and accelerate the destruction of the US.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 8, 2011
Well, actually I told many people to by gold in 1999 when it was at $297 oz. I also predicted and told many friends clients not to by anymore real estate in mid 2003, that FNMA and FREDDIE MAC were going to go bankrupt. I also told them that I thought that the Federal Reserve Banksters and their major Member banksters were orchestrating another boom and bust cycle similar to the one in 1929. I also predict that this one is going to last as long and will be even become more servere as time go on. If the military industrial complex were removed from GDP statistics this would be considered a depression. I bet the The 49 million poor think we are.

You are under the illusion that government will regulate the rich. I have not seen that in my lifetime. It is a wonderful though, but thinking that you can beat those that run the polical system at the game they control, has not bode well for the majority.

Even though I know how devious these basturds are, even I was labergasted as I watched the Bush Administration and the government contractors industrial complex rape and pillage the treasury. Those who invested in the companies did well, sadly I wasn't one of them.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 8, 2011
Thanks Harry for the clarification

Economics is not a science.
More a black art at best and a scam at worst

Austrian Economics,the philosophy embraced by Ron Paul and others is also flawed and barely qualifies as economics.

As I stated this libertarian ideal is only ideal for those who control the gold. What's the old saying "those who hold the gold make the rules"

Please do a little additional reading about the system of economics America had in the 18th and early 19th century.

Virtually zero regulations and the economy was a free for all, where we did not even have a standard of currency. Banks literally printed their own money. If not for all the free land available for subsistence farming the early Americans were no better off than common chattel in the feudal era.Industrial revolution and thoughtful regulation created the middle class. Not anarchy and Austrian economics.

If the total population of the entire planet was only 5000 humans,Austrian economics still would not work. In short order enough humans would band together in common cause either for moral or immoral reasons and form a government. It's been that way since man crawled out of the cave. It always will be till there is only one person left.

The lesson is to find means of controlling this potential enemy called government and learn to tame it. Not to kill it and then find you soon need to replace it.

And yes you are quite correct.
The USA is now a truly fascist oligarchy.The same elements who have been the true power behind the curtain finally acquired enough media power to convince just enough gullible people that black is white and white is black.

I still hear people who defend the most criminal administration this country has ever known. The Bush Crime Family almost single handedly ruined our country and created the depression we are now in along with mass killing around the world.

Those same people now join the Tea Party and promote their own destruction.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 8, 2011
harry - you slept through the last years of the Bush administration when our under-regulated financial industry created a huge housing bubble and took on far too much risk with derivatives?

That's why we saw 4,100 manufacturing plants closing. That's why we saw millions of Americans losing their jobs. That's why we are now seeing a record number of Americans falling below the poverty line. The lack of adequate regulation allowed big financial companies to screw us.

We came damn close to descending into a depression. We're very lucky that we got a president that stopped us from going into an even deeper hole. And we're very lucky that we had a Congress during the first two years of President Obama's administration that wrote new legislation to allow the government to step in before "too big to fail" companies ruin us again.

Excess taxation? Our taxes have been falling and falling. Especially for the rich.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 8, 2011
The only thing that I will do if you want, is explain to you why I beleive that the U.S. is in principle a fascist oligarchy and not a democratic Republic, as our Constitution requires. I can in sufficient detail. It's pretty obvious when you consider the various components and realities.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 8, 2011
When asking me to help you understand an element of my writing or a term I use, please be very specific. Can you understand that?

In the U.S. We have lost 4,100 factories in the last decade alone.

11-07-2011 • Reuters: New U.S. Census data raise number of poor to 49 million in 2010, or 16 percent, according to new data released on Monday that showed poverty rates for the elderly, Asians and Hispanics higher.

Your system of excessive taxation and regulation is doing great isn't it. I think you should keep up the illusion for the system you embrace. You don't even understand you have a fascist philosophy yourself? As all fascist do, you beleive in many myths and other miscomceptions that the ruling oligarchs have taught you, which is called propaganda. You have fallen for their lies. Just as you just confused Republican conservativism with my libertarian Austrian economic principles.

Perhaps we should continue this debate when you have read a few more books on political economy. "The Law" by Friedrick Bastiat, would be a good primer. And if you have, I would surely like to know who the authors are. Unless we can stay on one issue at a time, I can not see the benefits of continuing. Do you understand that?
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 8, 2011
When Sarah Palin speaks,if you can tolerate listening to a voice that reminds one of a chain saw grinding through the spine of a feral cat, you discover that the words form just a scattered assembly of non related right wing phrases and praise of failed right wing policies. The speech is so disjointed it's impossible to listen without asking; 'what did she say'?
Best described as a 'word salad'

This lack of coherence seems to be a common element in all those who follow the dictates of the Conservative Cult.

Can that feature possibly be due to the fact that the sentiments are not really their own? That they have been given them by others to then mindlessly repeat like a chant or prayer?

I cannot think of any other reason why so many conservatives display the same feature in their speech and 'writing'.

So Harry?
Do you have a dictionary and thesaurus in print or CD that I can borrow to help me interpret what it was you just said?

If there is a charge that's fine.
I want to support 'free enterprise' after all.

If I don't lend support then perhaps those nasty Socialist Fascists may send out the 'Market Police'.

By the way the only way you can link Socialism with Fascism is if you have no idea of the definition of either word or you are just using absurdity to illustrate absurdity.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 8, 2011
A nice speech, but flawed.

No one is calling for fascism. No one is calling for the end of the free market. What people are seeking is an adequately regulated free market. A chance for all to get ahead and a movement away from a ruling class that controls the rest of us by owning an inordinate share of the wealth.

If you're a boomer (I'm part of the generation prior to yours) you remember a time when someone could work hard and make a nice life for themselves and their family. (As long as they were white men, but that's an equality battle my generation fought. And then we helped you fight against the Vietnam War.)

Those days are waning. Now 1% of Americans own an inordinate amount of the wealth and the rest of us are finding our wages cut to serve their greed.

What we're watching right now is a battle to further cut the taxes of the wealthy and put the burden on those who are least able to carry it.

Let me ask you a couple of simple questions.

Why should someone who works hard for a living pay a higher tax rate than someone who inherited a fortune and lives off the gains?

Why does someone who is hired to run a company deserve a salary that is 300x, 400x, 600x higher than another employee who earned a good degree, has a position of responsibility, and works hard to make the company succeed?
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 8, 2011
And you should move to either China or Cuba where fascism is highly embraced. As those countries start to embrace higher and higher levels of free enterprise, they will over the long run be better places to live that those countries in the U.S. that are going tin the oposite direction. At least that has been the historical facts over the last couple of decades and there is no reason to suggest anything else otherwise. You are suggesting that if reduce government substantially as we had in the 19th century, that we would be living in greater levels of violence when history tells us just the opposite.

Are you starting to figure out that it is the force of government that begats greater violence? 150 million people were killed by their own government in the 20th century along. Surely you are not ignoring those facts. That the priciples of less govenement, as Jefferson and Paine had invisioned provide the majority with greater peace and prosperity. It's not that hard to understand my man; keep thinking and learning. Learn about how maritime privateering and militia groups such as the Green Mountain Boys were instramental in the defeat of the British in the Revolutionary war. There are at least several hundred books that show how, why and the histroy of when the free market is and was preferable to fascism.

You have let the propoganda of the oligarchs melt your brain into beleiving the many myths of politics and government. Free your brain and the truth will set you free.

I remember, just in my lifetime, when ethics were higher. That a person's word and handshake were their bond. The baby boomers have seen and experienced the digression as govenment has gotten larger and larger. Unethical behavior obviously begets unethical behavior. We were the ones who stopped the Viet Nam war. It is time for the next generation to step up.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 8, 2011
harry - get yourself to Somalia.

There you will be able to live your life free of the heavy hand of government and onerous taxes.

Your life will like be greatly shortened, but you'll be FREE!!!!

Send us a post card. Actually, don't bother. Just go.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 7, 2011
It is only a psychopath or fool who does not acknowledge that what is in reality legalized theft and coercion; what we call taxation in the realm of political correctness, is anything but unethical, requires me to ask my fascist adversaries, which one are you? Thinking that the institution of government, with its economic foundation based on such unethical behaviors as taxation and coersion, can foster a civil and just society, to me requires even less intellectual capacity.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 7, 2011
Great, harry. Let's let the oil companies roll up into one big company and watch what we pay at the pump. You think $4/gallon was high? Wait until you get a taste of $10 gas.

I'm afraid you do not know your history. Go read about how things were before Teddy Roosevelt dropped the hammer. Read about life in a company town where everything you bought came from the company store.

Your argument lacks a factual base.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 7, 2011
If you truly knew about monoplies that you would know that there is nothing to fear unless they are govenment granted monopolies. Where you truly "afraid" of Microsoft? They were going to take over the world had not government stoped them. Dude, only monopolies that are granted by government such as the Federal Reserve Bank, should you fear, as they now have the legalized force of government behind them. Where do you come up with such fearful understanding of private enterprise. Do you think that they are going to make evil cars, trucks or toasters. Your arguments are not very logical or thought out.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 7, 2011
harry - you don't have a clue as to what I believe or what I wrote.

And you do not understand the danger of a truly free market. Look up monopoly.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 7, 2011
"Libertarians embrace free market capitalism and almost everything good that you have as posessions has been produced by private enterprises and most of the bad things that have come about like wars and injustice are administered and controled by governments"

Statements such as this one are the primary reason I could never embrace Libertarianism.

The first requirement for embracing the Libertarian Philosophy is to be completely ignorant of history.

Government in many cases is very repressive and can create allot of problems. Abandoning a government structure in favor of what is called 'free market capitalism always leads to anarchy and chaos that makes the problems of a strong central government seem mild by comparison.

How about just one example of many thousands that illustrate the fallacy of Libertarianism.

In the hay day of America's newly developing system of railroads two technologies that killed and maimed railroad workers as regularly as clock work were the manual brake and the methods used to couple and decouple cars.

Won't go into details (look them up) but brakemen died on a daily basis and couplers lost hands and fingers and were crushed between cars every day. Westinghouse had the air brake and another fellow had the auto coupler, Neither were adopted because 'free enterprise' determined it was cheaper to just replace the dead and maimed worker than invest in the new technology.

Finally the government mandated both technologies.

Almost overnight the railroads saw massive increases in productivity and profits. Worker death and maiming diminished greatly.

The mandate came about through more progressive folks petitioning the government for change.

I can list thousands of similar examples.

And Libertarians. Will you please tell me why Germany,with a Democratic Socialist government,regularly kicks Americas economic ass. Out competes us and has a better quality of life?

Libertarianism = return to Monarcy
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 7, 2011
Dear Mr. Wallace, Since the utilization of democracy or a democratic republic as a working political system is an illusion, there is nothing left than anarcho Capitalism that works. Although not perfect it is our best chance. People do not seen to be willing to except things they do not understand. Libertarians embrace free market capitalism and almost everything good that you have as posessions has been produced by private enterprises and most of the bad things that have come about like wars and injustice are administered and controled by governments. If you don't like what private enterprise has produced, than give up all your worldly pocessions or stop being a hypocrit. I'm a poor libertarian as there are many. It is the fascism you embrace that allows the rich to get richer and there is more than sufficient evidence to prove that. You must understand the truths and realities of what the current system is before you can find solutions to the various problems, it has not solved. Just understand that the government has solved very few problems of history as they are the ones creating many of them. Seeking freemarket solutions is a better method but than again you must truly understand have free enterprise works.
Roger Moore
Roger Moore
November 7, 2011
Even if energy problems are upstream of Wall Street, we can't make effective reforms with the fractional reserve banking system that we have. Our current system leaves too many citizens drenched in debt and it crushes their ability to do productive things like invest in solar panels.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 6, 2011
Thomas, I look back through the posts and I see no place where I say that wasteful spending is THE problem. If you can point that out I won't feel that you tried to put words in my mouth.

Now, wasteful spending, I don't see is as a significant problem outside of how the top 1% and some of the 99% who are foolish live.

Did you hear about the new iPad cover that contains dinosaur bones and diamonds and sells for $8 million?

I've worked at the federal, state, and county level of government and I certainly have not seen a problem of wasteful spending. In fact, almost every department/project was constantly strapped for funds and looking for ways to stretch the budget in order to do the job at hand. I've watched teachers, whose salaries weren't very good, spend their own money for classroom supplies because the school budget was too small.

That libertarian idea that turning things over to individuals is attractive at first blush, but if one thinks about it at all, it becomes obvious that it's a failed idea.

Look back to when we had private fire companies. If you hadn't paid your dues, had your membership plaque on the front of your house, the fire department parked out on the road and watched your house burn down. We've still got that system in isolated parts of the country and recently a house was allowed to burn to the ground because the owner hadn't signed up.

For some systems to work - fire, police, education, hospitals, food and drug safety, water, electricity, etc. - we have to work together to create systems that serve all. Almost none of the 99% could afford to provide themselves with those benefits.

You should go spend some time in a country that doesn't have the shared systems that we have. Spend some months or a year in a place where you can't trust the food supply, where you have to "tip" your mailman to get your mail delivered, ....

A libertarian would be a nightmare for all except the rich.
Thomas M
Thomas M
November 6, 2011
Bob, you're right, wasteful spending is the problem. So why give them the authority in the first place? Let the consumer spend their money on what benefits them, thus boosting the economy with sales of products that benefit all.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 4, 2011
@Bob_Wallace,

Obama and the Dems promised that unemployment would go down after their stimulus bill was passed in 2009 - it went up. The only thing accomplished was another trillion dollars down the drain, and added to the debt burden. Wastefull government spending is what harms the country, not blocking it.

I'm actually surprised there's any of you Obots still out there. Here's some lessons for ya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wusgcG4rfo
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 4, 2011
It's up to us to see that more than enough thinking voters show up to the polls to counter act the "Johns".

We failed to do that in 2010 and now we're watching elected officials intentionally harm the US in hopes that it will allow them to grab even more power next year. We could already have unemployment down closer to 7% but we've just now made it to 9% because Tea Party Republicans have blocked all efforts to create jobs for Americans. They won't even allow ideas to be discussed so that the best ideas could be hammered out.

We fail to turn out the vote and what happens after that is entirely our fault.

The best option may not be perfect, but the other option will be disastrous.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 4, 2011
Bob. I feel the same drain of energy anytime I have wasted any time in trying to convince someone of John's ilk that they live in a fantasy land filled with a long list of pre- digested nonsense fed to them by those who enslave what little of their mental faculties they still have left.

It's like trying to convince a suicide bomber that he would be better off getting an education and a good job. It's hopeless.

Speaking of left. John like all of his brethren in the mindless cult of conservatism see every thing as a simple left or right issue.The definition of each word well crafted by again those who enslave his mind.For him the word left is a dog whistle that when sounded elicits the Pavlovian response he is conditioned to respond to. When he hears the word conservative or the right he sees perfection and salivates in response. It's classic and has been with society since cave man days.

John lives in a bumper sticker mentality where if it takes more than five words to convey a message he gets lost and loses interest. It simply takes effort and real thought processes to sort the good from the bad and John simply finds his version of reality to require no effort or thought and thus fills his need for quick solutions to nearly unsolvable problems.

I'm quite certain that John if being honest will tell you that he supported with glee the slaughter of millions in the name of freedom perpetrated by his GOOD AND PERFECT right wing criminals called Republicans. 'Hell they are only rag heads' I can hear him shout.The trillions these criminals wasted and continue to waste in ever increasing numbers is just fine. The waste is fine so long as done by his version of good called the right.

But god help us if a couple of what he calls 'Crazy Check' recipients steal a few hundred dollars.

I'm sure the criminals on wall street that he loves to protect from the 'OWS thugs' laugh at him as the fool he is.

Let's just pray John never votes.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 4, 2011
Whatever, John.

You aren't going to get it through your thick skull that no one is calling for socialism. And no one wants to destroy the free market, just adequately regulate it so that everyone gets a free shake.

You go right on living in your 1950's fantasy world. I just have no more energy for you.

Have a good day....
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
@Bob_Wallace,

You can tell by their comments that even hardcore lefties like Bill, and Larry, have lost faith in Obama and the Dems. It's not that the Dems aren't putting forth socialist policies - they are. It's just that those policies don't work. What the public wants (including Bill, Larry, you, and me) is success. High paying jobs, mcmansions, cars, greed. Because the free market is more efficient, it will always produce more "stuff" than socialism. The country may veer to the left temporarily, but the free market will always win out in the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8y6DJAeolo
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
John, I have no idea why you think people getting arrested for something about which they feel strongly is a bad thing.

I suppose you think that our standing up to racist police forces during the Civil Rights movement was a bad thing as well. We should have known our place, eh John?

But here's something you should enjoy John.

49 percent of Americans now state that the Republicans are intentionally hindering efforts to boost the economy so that President Barack Obama will not be reelected. Only thirty-nine percent disagreed.

Even 24 percent of Republicans realize that the Tea Party Republicans are intentionally working to keep unemployment high in order to gain politically. Imagine, one quarter of all Republicans are breaking ranks out of anger with how Republicans in Congress are harming America.

Those numbers are going to grow. Your Tea Party folks are looking at some hard times getting reelected. They are already running individual low numbers and having trouble raising funds. Looks like you guys shot your wad.

Oh, and your candidates - Cain, Bachmann and Frothy Brown Stuff Boy - they're doing great, aren't they? They're getting their butts handed to them by a second rate weather cock.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
@Bob_Wallace

Is the NY times a "right wing" source?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/protesters-arrested-outside-goldman-sachs-building/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/31/us/occupy-wall-street-protesters-arrested-in-denver-and-portland.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/nyregion/occupy-wall-street-march-to-support-oakland-protests.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/protest-in-oakland-turns-violent.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/us/oakland-and-other-cities-crack-down-on-occupy-protests.html?_r=1
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
@larryofgalaxy,

The Tea Party has succeeded in fielding and electing several candidates. They've also succeded in changing the liberal dirction of the Republican Party, and the liberal direction of the whole country with the new Congress, and many new state legislatures.

Please tell me what exactly the OWS mob has accomplished besides rapes, robberies, drug sales, property damage, and getting thousands of their membership arrested?

You lefties are like a gang of chickens running around with their heads cut off. You have no goal, no plan, NO BRAINS! The only end game for the OWS mob is to get themselves all locked up in cages.

Are you no better than wild animals?
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
No, John.

I think the people who put that crap together worked hard to find the worst possible shots to include and avoided all the pictures which didn't fit their script.

Cherry-picking is a well-hewn right wing tool, often used to misrepresent what is actually on going.

Now, the Oakland movement is a bit different from many of the other OWS groups. There is some deep-seated anger over past police behavior and Oakland could easily be attracting some different sorts of individuals.

But if you look at the NY OWS group you'll find that over 90% have anywhere from some college education to a graduate degree, over 70% are employed, and overall their salaries are higher than average.

So laugh your little ill-informed chuckles. You and Rush-who never finished a year of college. Intentionally ignorant people.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"Why am I not surprised about your lack of knowledge about the OWS people John?

Might it be because you get your information from idiotic right wing sources?"

So are you saying that Michelle Malkin had all those pictures and videos made up? LOL
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 3, 2011
Since this string has taken on a life of its own I thought I would comment one last time.

The comments coming from John-Bronson can at best be described as a simple up chuck of smelly chunks of mindless right wing drivel.And that's at best. It actually makes me sad that he has fallen so far off the edge of reality.

As someone who visited the Portland OWS demo's and did an entire day of interviewing (informally of course) hundreds of the participants Johns characterization of them can only come from someone who has never been to an OWS rally and instead has a permanent IV drip of Fox,Limbaugh and all the other human garbage that pimps this mindless right wing nonsense, custom created by those who have always enslaved the small minded and gullible.

Although I saw many folks I would describe as neo hippies or gen x castoffs,the majority of those I talked too were unemployed ,educated (in some cases advanced technical degrees)males and females who had a very good grasp of who is actually pulling the strings behind the curtain.They hate both the Republicans and the Democrats. They know they both have sold us out. I even met folks who originally joined the T party crowds until they discovered that for the most part their agenda was developed by the very people they hated. The banksters who stole trillions.The military industrial types who are impoverishing our country and slaughtering millions in the name of freedom.The mental midgets who pass themselves off as energy experts who cry drill baby drill knowing full well the holes are dry and the product drilled is killing the planet.Most also agreed that 911 was most likely an inside job and actually connected in some way to the carefully designed financial crash that now cripples our country.

They could quote more from the US Constitution drunk or stoned in detail far exceeding the right wing moron's who worship the constitution yet use it as toilet paper in reality.

So John to be polite
You're a fool.
greg chick
greg chick
November 3, 2011
Anyone who uses news channels to study reality is in lala land. Media is entertainment at best. I myself dont find any entertainment on any TV channel that is why I have not subscribed to the hypnosis Box for decades.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
Why am I not surprised about your lack of knowledge about the OWS people John?

Might it be because you get your information from idiotic right wing sources?

Hummmmmmmmmmmmm............
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
@Bob_Wallace

I doubt if the OWS mob can even explain what "campaign financing" is. It's pretty obvious that the only thing this group is going to accomplish is committing crimes, and getting themselves arrested. And ironically, whatever difficulty they've been having getting a job, is now going to be 1,000 times worse with a criminal record.

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/11/03/more-ugly-occupy-oakland-pictures-that-wont-make-msm-front-pages/
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
Well, I'm hoping that out of the OWS movement we get a new political movement that concentrates on fixing our worst problems, and in my book campaign financing is about the worst. So many of our other difficulties arise out of the position in which we put our elected officials.

I do not blame elected officials for "selling out to corporate interests". I blame us, the voters. We have the ability to change the system, we can even change the Constitution if that is what it would take.

I don't have a well thought-out solution but my guess is that we need to find a way to greatly limit political contributions to the point where only upper middle class and the rich are able to "buy an ear". And I suspect that we need to remove the right of corporations to engage in political speech.

What if each registered voter had a $100 ($50/$103/whatever, but small) dollar limit that they could give to either a candidate in a specific race or to an organization to be used to comment on the candidates in a particular race? And if "bundling" was outlawed?

That would force candidates to get out and present their message more directly to the people and not just buy a large amount of TV time. And none of us would be able to give enough to make us VIPs who must be obeyed. But most of us would be able to help our preferred candidate and would be able to feel that our contribution made a difference, not wiped out by someone with millions to spend.
greg chick
greg chick
November 3, 2011
Bob, yes that is status quo, now even if one means well and is honest, he or she needs to just that and sooner or later a jaded sense of "well if I want to achieve this, I need to give up that" and the slippery slope to hell and crime....I think the gov. needs to pay for education to public as to the issues and th candidates need to just say yea or na on issues and sop all this muck raking and spinning we are all dizzy with lies, and you cant deny that, What to do?
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
What to do?

Free people seeking public office from having to raise very large amounts of money for campaigns.

Personalize it. Imagine that you really wanted to gain office and do some good stuff for the people in your area.

Now, to get your name and agenda known you're going to need millions of dollars. Where are you going to get the millions you need?

Fat cats will be glad to help you out, but they will expect something back in return. So what to do, take their money and pay them back so you can get more in the future? Or lose?
greg chick
greg chick
November 3, 2011
Evidently experience is proving to be self serving, instead of serving the people! this is obvious, what to do?
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"We recognize that there are skills which are learned with practice. Give me a Congress full of experienced lawmakers rather than novices."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fbi-was-investigating-rep-murtha-for-corruption-new-records-show/2011/10/18/gIQAtZ8PvL_story.html

Term limits are not a bad idea.
greg chick
greg chick
November 3, 2011
Bob, I do understand your point, the where they parked is even a fair comment. But Every Citizen will need to fulfill the responsibility to get educated before voting. Possibly have a test at top of ballot to see how must this person actually knows about the ballot items and people. I think the right to vote and watch TV will win instead.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 3, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"Try thinking about someone other than yourself. Start paying back the debt you owe to others."

I pay monthly, quarterly, and annually to the state and the feds. I pay everytime I buy something, and everytime I sell something. I pay plenty!

I know a young guy that held down 3 jobs to buy his house. I know another young guy who is perfectly fit, yet is able to collect an SSDI "crazy" check, just so he can do nothing all day. The question is - what type of behavior should the government promote? Pavlov's dogs could get very lazy. What happened to Greece could happen to any democracy that decides to vote themselves a check in the mail. Societies that abandon the free market have always paid a heavy price, and always will.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 3, 2011
Please. Let's be a bit more discerning.

There are some excellent people in Congress. Take time to sort them out from the ones that need to go.

And don't even think about one term. What that means is that you will have a brand new set of "know-nothings" after each election and the lobbyists will write all the legislation which the new kids try to remember where they parked their cars.

We recognize that there are skills which are learned with practice. Give me a Congress full of experienced lawmakers rather than novices. Just get rid of the jerks who do nothing to help Americans.
greg chick
greg chick
November 3, 2011
Wow, I read all of that, and I do not do pleasure Reading, (obviously) this is some tedious stuff and a lot of good points raised. I gotta say I do agree there are some folks that are just told what to think and say as a mantra. Others are into rights before responsibilities Dont forget the best of all Greed! I think we are in a mess of human condition here. Yes lets clear out Congress, all of them and have a one term limit. Also one item allowed on a bill so to vote for everything separately. and yes every Bill needs to be understood as it is stated in common english. Possibly edited by grade school kids, We could send all bills to every elementary school for the vote on verbiage and clarity. If it fail, it goes back for re writing. Yes those who will live with this world need a part in the whole thing early in the game.
Greg
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 2, 2011
"Thanks for cutting to the chase. So this is all really about the politics of envy - "he has more than me". "

Classic predictable response.
No connection to the discussion at hand but simply a programmed response


May as well give it a rest guys

When old Jim Jones commanded his followers to drink the Kool Aid and give it all up,they all obeyed without question.No real difference here. It's the Cult of Conservatism and old John appears to have his Reagan bible open and reading passages verbatim.

You will never get through to him with any amount of logic or reasoning.

Remember
Facts are just seen as 'a liberal bias' to those who choose to follow what is now called conservatism.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 2, 2011
Yes, John, you are all about someone getting something that you aren't getting.

You think you got where you are all on your own. You don't recognize the help your parents and other relatives gave you. You don't recognize the help your teachers gave you. You don't recognize how you benefited by the infrastructure and institutions others paid for. You don't even recognize how any employees you might have had boosted you up.

We helped you get to where you are today, John.

We've got your back if anything bad might happen to you.

Try thinking about someone other than yourself. Start paying back the debt you owe to others.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"Wake up John. The incomes of the 1% rose 275% over the last 30 years and the incomes of the rest of use remained more or less flat. Quit letting multi-millionaires like Limbaugh jerk your string."

Thanks for cutting to the chase. So this is all really about the politics of envy - "he has more than me".

In a healthy economy, there are going to be some that are more successfull than others. Any effort to take that success away is going to result in the entire society living in poverty. History has proved this many times over.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"You know, John, you don't pay any tax on the first several thousands of dollars you earn either.

You either use your standard deduction or possible have even more deductions. You duck taxes with personal deductions for you and your dependents.

Then for the next several thousand dollars you pay tax at a very low rate."

That's all true, and that's exactly my point - it's the higher wage earners (a.k.a. the rich), that pay ALL the taxes.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote

"The "46%" do not get a free ride. They get plummeted by all sorts of taxes and fees."

Where I live they do, because they get a free bus pass. Or if they have a car, they get free car insurance, and a free cell phone (for emergencies you see). And free health insurance. And free schools (with free lunches of course), for the kids. And when the kids are grown, they get free college. And thanks to Obamau, 1/2 of US families are now collecting free food stamps, or EBT cards as they're now called.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 2, 2011
You know, John, you don't pay any tax on the first several thousands of dollars you earn either.

You either use your standard deduction or possible have even more deductions. You duck taxes with personal deductions for you and your dependents.

Then for the next several thousand dollars you pay tax at a very low rate.

And you know what? If you fall down your steps and crack your skull the rest of us will be supporting you as you sit in your chair and drool.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
larryofgalaxy wrote:

"The 46% have either had their effective incomes driven to levels lower than a wage of 1960 adjusted for inflation or they are retired and/or on Social Security (which by the way they paid for and can depend on for years to come so long as the CON's are placed back in a cage)or they are disabled,mentally challenged severally or just born with a low intellect."

Or, they choose to smoke pot and watch the Roadrunner show all day. That entitles you to a Social Security "crazy check" without having to pay in anything.
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 2, 2011
The "46%" do not get a free ride. They get plummeted by all sorts of taxes and fees.

That 46% stuff is just an attempt on the part of the very rich to divide the 99% and let the 1% skate by once more.

Wake up John. The incomes of the 1% rose 275% over the last 30 years and the incomes of the rest of use remained more or less flat. Quit letting multi-millionaires like Limbaugh jerk your string.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 2, 2011
'What everyone should be looking at are the 54% that pay income tax vs. the 46% that get a free ride'

Yes there are those of us who are in fact taking a good look at these figures. Unfortunately for the 'masters of the universe' many of us don't wear special viewing glasses supplied by the likes of a Limbaugh Cult Member or those who have an umbilical cord firmly connected to the Fox Propaganda Channel.

For someone staggering around after a good dose of CONKoolAid or bite of LimBerger, the lies inherent in these figures are very blurry and shaded in grey.

For those of us who reject anything CON like we would a shot of Meth,the scam that is this 54-46 canard is very clear.

The 46% have either had their effective incomes driven to levels lower than a wage of 1960 adjusted for inflation or they are retired and/or on Social Security (which by the way they paid for and can depend on for years to come so long as the CON's are placed back in a cage)or they are disabled,mentally challenged severally or just born with a low intellect. These working poor should be paying income tax in addition to all the taxes they are already subject to?? I have heard that Fox Propaganda Channel and Limbaugh Clones are telling their mindless followers that the filthy rich pay over %40 of all the income taxes. Well of course they do. For the most part they illegally extract %75 of the total wealth. And just who do you think pays the other %35. In general it's the same mindless zombies who vote Republican and think it's just fine that a robber baron's secretary pays more than the robber baron who generally inherited the wealth. Now those same moron's are calling for no tax at all on the billions and billions of capital gains. I'm sure Paris Hilton will just love laughing all the way to the bank with the mindless Republican's wealth. Those same republicans would only be welcome in her home if they came in through the trash door and left quickly after polishing her silver.
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
william-fitch wrote:

"Remember in Star Wars, the chancellor was pretending to be the savior against the evil forces showing themselves. He turned out in fact to be the Seth Lord, the source of the presented evil, and finally the Emperor."

Wrong movie. Check out "The Candidate", where at the end, the Robert Redford character wins the election and then asks
privately "what do I do now?".
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
larryofgalaxy wrote:

"A mindless addiction to promotion of greed,lust,lying,theft etc etc"

And these protestors aren't greedy? Are they protesting for civil rights, the right to vote, benefits for the elderly and crippled, or an end to the war in Afghanistan? Or do they just want someone else's money? Isn't it funny how it's always the "other" side who are the greedy ones? If it were not for cops in the US carrying guns, the protestors would be breaking into stores and stealing Gucci bags, and flat screen TVs, just like they did in England. Hooray for equality!
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
Bob_Wallace wrote:

"Right now "the other 1%" is sucking up the money of the 99%. We need to level things out a bit...."

Those are the numbers the left wants out there. What everyone should be looking at are the 54% that pay income tax vs. the 46% that get a free ride. Yes we do need to level things out a bit.
William Fitch
William Fitch
November 2, 2011
Hi:

Nicely said Larry.
The only problem is that the same interests already own who is in the WH. That is the real magic trick.
Remember in Star Wars, the chancellor was pretending to be the savior against the evil forces showing themselves. He turned out in fact to be the Seth Lord, the source of the presented evil, and finally the Emperor. He used the Clone army to defeat the evil "other side", which was then turned ultimately to murder the Jedi. Deception of at least one layer is part of any game of real power. Although considering the average intelligence level of the American public, one layer is probably more than enough....

.....Bill
Allen Gerhardt
Allen Gerhardt
November 2, 2011
There is an excellent discussion of the reasoning for OWS at Free Speech TV.

http://www.freespeech.org/video/full-show-102811-conversations-great-minds-and-weekly-rumble
Allen Gerhardt
Allen Gerhardt
November 2, 2011
There was an excellent discussion of reasoning for the OWS protests on Free Speach TV. http://www.freespeech.org/video/full-show-102811-conversations-great-minds-and-weekly-rumble
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 2, 2011
First of all quoting Margaret Thacher is similar to seeking out the local village idiot to discuss quantum physics or mentioning intellect and Rush Limbaugh in the same sentence.

The word conservative or conservatism is simply a word. At one time the word was used to describe those who felt it was a good thing to preserve some features of a culture. A religious philosophy. Perhaps to preserve and conserve natural resources etc.(thus the root word)

The word now,as connected and used freely to describe those who have an agenda of mass murder (Iraq-Afganistan invasion and illegal occupation). Fiscal insanity (insane tax cuts that have driven us into bankruptcy and third world status) A loathing and disdain for intelligence,learning and thoughtful debate ( Palin.now KochCain and the entire line up of court jesters called Republican Presidential Candidates) A mindless addiction to promotion of greed,lust,lying,theft etc etc (any and all visible results of the actions taken by those who are willing to attach their name to the current definition of the word conservative.

In short the word conservative,based on the results of the actions of those who proudly proclaim the moniker, have reduced the word to something similar to that of pedophile or child molester,murderer or thief.

I always bet anyone who proudly proclaims to a conservative to show me even one thing in the last 100 years that has been of a direct benefit to mankind that came from someone claiming they are conservative. Haven't lost that bet yet.


And again use of the word socialism as a pejorative anytime one simply challenges conservative Doga is that Pavlovian response I mentioned above.
To be anti conservative does not automatically make someone a socialist
It simply illustrates quite clearly someone who has opened their eyes and is willing to seek out truth and not obey nonsense force fed to all willing to listen to those who want to enslave you.
Modern day conservative = feudalism
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
November 2, 2011
John, are you so locked into the last century that you can't comprehend that it's not socialism vs. capitalism any longer?

It's about an adequately free market. One that's unregulated enough to allow for hard work and innovation to pay off but regulated enough so that everyone else doesn't get screwed.

Right now "the other 1%" is sucking up the money of the 99%. We need to level things out a bit....
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
larryofgalaxy wrote:

"Conservatism is more a condition.
It's incurable and usually fatal.
It's not a philosophy."

What was it Thatcher said? The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?

Perhaps the Greeks should have studied the "incurable fatal condition" a bit more.
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 2, 2011
"The galaxy of Marx no doubt."

Thank you so much for a solid confirmation of all that I previously stated. Once again the validity of the message conveyed in that image I spoke of is solidly confirmed.
Let's just say Pavlov's Dog.
Do a Google search on that one for clarity.

Questioning at even a minor level any of the fundamentalist Dogma constantly pounded into the heads of the unthinking by the true holders of power,will get any inquisitor an easily predicted response from any fully indoctrinated cult member.

Again thanks for participating in our impromptu survey
Have a nice day
John Bronson
John Bronson
November 2, 2011
Hi larryofgalaxy,

The galaxy of Marx no doubt. Here's your 'brilliant' OWS crowd in action:

http://biggovernment.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/

Quite a long list of accomplishments I must say.

What would Churchill say?

'Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.'
lawrence elliott
lawrence elliott
November 1, 2011
"As far as comparing OWS to the Tea Party - you didn't see hundreds of people getting arrested at Tea Party rallies, or rapes of minors, heroin sales, sexual perverts, or robberies either. Perhaps some time in jail is really what these people need to think things through."

"GET RID OF ALL THESE STUPID REGULATIONS!"

I won't really get into the specifics of just how truly ignorant these comments are. Let me just say that if you were to listen to comments coming from a member of any type of cult,or listen to a member of a fundamentalist religious group,(I suppose that's redundant) or even listen to a person who is rabidly addicted to collecting baseball cards and can spout out every statistic on every game and player for the last hundred years like it's coming from a recording ,yet is not capable of crossing a street without being hit.That's the image that comes to mind when I hear these comments.

They don't reflect careful thought.
They are irrational.
They are similar to a chant or prayer
They have no redeeming value of any kind.

Did I just describe a Republican or a defect of nature called a conservative?

Yes.

Conservatism is more a condition.
It's incurable and usually fatal.
It's not a philosophy.
H. Skip Robinson
H. Skip Robinson
November 1, 2011
If you factor out warfare as a portion of GDP, we have long been in a recession and I disagree with any economist who think any but a very small percentage of the military industrial complex should be treated as such. War is not productive. It is an expense and it could be as much as 90% less expensive if you followed the Constitiutional intent of the majority of our founders. To bad the age of enlightenment came to an end so quickly.
Thomas M
Thomas M
October 31, 2011
With the colder weather here, perhaps they should change their agenda to OPA, Occupy Pennsylvania Ave. That house should be big enough to house to plenty of homeless who would probably be smarter than those who live there now....
John Bronson
John Bronson
October 31, 2011
aligatorhardt wrote:

'The bank fraud and ratings fraud was instrumental in creating the recession, and the excess speculation in commodities does largely impact the prices of oil and food'

The mortgage bubble was caused by the federal government requiring banks to make subprime loans. Fannie and Freddie are GOVERNMENT entities. Private banks did not want to make these kind of loans, but were being sued if they didn't.

What affects commodity prices is the Fed printing trillions of dollars in order to pay for the trillion dollar budget deficits. This problem is only going to get worse. This is not caused by speculators - it's caused by the government.
John Bronson
John Bronson
October 31, 2011
Let's be real for a minute. Our president is a useless idiot. And there is a growing portion of the population that is stupid and lazy, and expects the government to provide everything for them.

Public education should be privatized. And all of the "free money" giveaway programs should be eliminated - food stamps, welfare, unemployment, SSDI "crazy" checks, etc. If you didn't pay into SS, then you shouldn't be collecting it.

Obama talks about how we don't build Golden Gate bridges, or Hoover dams anymore. The sad fact is, there are so many regulations now that you wouldn't be ABLE to build those kind of projects without some lawsuit shutting you down. GET RID OF ALL THESE STUPID REGULATIONS!
Allen Gerhardt
Allen Gerhardt
October 31, 2011
No doubt all groups contain some idiots. Fixating on odd individuals is a tactic to avoid addressing the issues. trivializing the reasons for the protest does not remove the need for the protests. Our economy is sick, our environment is sick, and our legal system is sick. The question is what are we going to do about it?
John Bronson
John Bronson
October 30, 2011
The deep thinkers at OWS on tape:

http://www.breitbart.tv/never-ending-supply-howard-stern-exposes-more-idiots-at-occupywallstreet/
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
October 30, 2011
aligatorhardt - Many, if not most, of our problems arise from the way we finance our elections. Even if you are the most honest, most compassionate person who is driven to make the country better you are forced to raise enormous amounts of money to fund your campaign. And some people have far, far more money than do others.

That puts you in the position where you have to be extra nice to the rich.

I totally agree with you. We need to free our elected officials of the need to sell themselves to the rich.

Public financing would be one way. Or pass a law to greatly restrict donation size. Put the maximum donation within the reach of the ordinary person and force candidates to be more creative with how they reach voters rather than dominating TV with ads.

Get out and talk with people. Engage in more two-way communication. Make it less worthwhile to spend time talking with the very rich.

But neither take care of the problem of big money running campaign ads in the manner the Supreme Court just created. If anything, our problems just got worst.

I'm hoping that by lots of people starting to talk about what changes we could try some better ideas will emerge.

Perhaps we should start with removing the right for corporations to engage in political speech. We need to figure out how to give corporations adequate protection while not making them "people".
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 30, 2011
Hi:

LOL...John...
The reason the Tea Partier's were not arrested is because allot of them were carrying guns and the people who paid to have them there (aka Koch Brothers) are one of the heavy privatize'ers of our now privatized government.
Bob spoke above about blocking for you own team as if there were two teams anymore. That is the issue. There is no more Blue and Red. The puppetier's own both sides.
Stating the obvious is getting boring...

.....Bill
.....EOL
Allen Gerhardt
Allen Gerhardt
October 30, 2011
The protests at Wall street do have some important issues, even though those are not the only issues of interest. The bank fraud and ratings fraud was instrumental in creating the recession, and the excess speculation in commodities does largely impact the prices of oil and food, the latter often inappropriately blamed on ethanol production. The other issues are the lack of prosecution of white collar crimes that damage millions of people. Improvements in law can address the speculation and fraud problems, but laws are worthless without just enforcement.
While Wall street is being blamed for these problems, our politicians are even more guilty of allowing these conditions to exist. Anyone should have the right to lobby government for attention to their cause, but it is the lawmakers that have the responsibility to create laws that are just for all. When they write the law to favor special interests at the expense of everyone else, the law makers have the ultimate guilt for corruption. We need more accountability for Congress in what they have created. The greatest tool for achieving this is public campaign financing. It is money that corrupts, and as long as elections are paid for with corporate money then that is where loyalties will remain. the power of the money needs to be returned to the voters. There is no substitute for government in this issue, as private interests cannot be expected to ignore their own interests in favor of the common interest.
John Bronson
John Bronson
October 30, 2011
The OWS crowd should be protesting the public school system for making them all so stupid and useless. Kanye West protesting "greed" whilst wearing a $400 shirt, and 10 lbs of gold jewelry just about says it all.

As far as comparing OWS to the Tea Party - you didn't see hundreds of people getting arrested at Tea Party rallies, or rapes of minors, heroin sales, sexual perverts, or robberies either. Perhaps some time in jail is really what these people need to think things through.
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 29, 2011
Hi:

Well, some interesting remarks...
I think in a bunch of the above paras, you are assuming your conclusion and ignoring the data....
Could say allot point by point I suppose, but I think I will just use these five words which I would like to see replace all the words on all the OWS signs that are held up in the air all over the world:

"Our Government Has Been Privatized"

Now the question is, what are we willing to do about it... that will ACTUALLY make a difference...

.....Bill
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
October 29, 2011
Consider what the Republican party is. Largely a party that works to increase the power of corporations and, thus, increase the wealth of the top "1%".

Of course you can't win elections in a democracy with only 1% of the votes, so you've got to attract groups with different agendas in order to from a significant voting group. In the middle of the previous century Richard Nixon reached out to racists in an effort to increase Republican vote numbers, Nixon's famous "Southern strategy".

Over time racism faded, many of the old sheet-wearers died out, and the Republican party encouraged other groups of haters, haters of women's rights, haters of gay rights, haters of immigrants. And finally they took under their wing a large group of people who just hate in general - the Tea Party.

Now they're stuck. The haters, the chronically angry, are large enough in number to control the primaries. The only way one can become the candidate is to oppose stuff. A good, sound, reasonable business person cannot win the Republican primary.

Now, Moore? The guy has turned into a clown. He did some good stuff early on but he's gotten caught up in his own celebrity and is spouting nonsense just to get attention.

Some on the left are dreamers, not achievers. Those of us who get stuff done know that you start with the world as it is and then move it in the direction you want over time and with great work. There's no magic button that you can push that makes change instant.

Moore, Krugman, Romm, and all of the other "true progressives" are hurting the country. They complain about what has not been done, ignore what progress has been made, and do zero to help.

Useless. All of them. If you want your team to win you block for your ball carrier. You do not help the other team tackle him.
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 29, 2011
Hi to both:

I do not disagree with either of the above.
However, the value of talking at this point to solve these problems considering the scope, depth, players involved and the length of time they have been pursuing this endgame, I believe falls under the heading of, "do it so we can say we tried that and it didn't work". Or to put it another simpler way, you always give the other side a peaceful choice before you start using their own chosen tactics against them. Its kind of CYA'ing from an historical perspective when future generations look back. They can not say we didn't try that.
I was watching CURR TV yesterday and Keith O. happen to have Michael Moore (F9/11 man, etc.) on. They were talking about the accusations leveled at him recently as being part of the 1% and attending OWS places (As if anyone with an IQ over 50 could not figure that out on their own). Anyway, he happen to articulate a paragraph of words that was basically identical to something I had thought many times months ago. I will paraphrase here but you will get the whole idea.
"If in fact the Republican party is the chosen party of the wealthy and powerful vying for control of the White House, why have they not put any people forward that can really take on Obama?? Why is there only this ridiculous band of buffoons up for consideration???.... unless...unless... they really already have there man right where they need their power to be..."
My mouth dropped a bit because it was like he was plucking the words from my brain. If you REALLY look at what the "O" man has done and not what he said he was going to do, right to this day, well, lets just say it all falls together...
--------
Regarding ICE's, no matter where the fuel comes from they still waste 85% of the energy. Electric motors use 85% and waste only 15%.
From a performance pound per pound perspective, an electric motor will kick the butt any day of the week and twice on Sunday of any ICE.

...Bill
Bob Wallace
Bob Wallace
October 29, 2011
Where the "occupation" is taking place is unimportant. The important thing is that we are beginning a conversation about how we want wealth to be distributed in the future.

People are now talking about how unfairly wealth has been distributed over the last 30 or so years. A tiny minority have grabbed the lion's share and the vast majority has been largely left out.

One person's work week should not earn them 300x, 500x as much as another capable, hard working person. We should not have our investments and homes stolen by unregulated financial institutions.

I'm suspecting that we're at the beginning of the next big social movement, not unlike what happened when labor awoke in the early part of the last century and the discriminated minorities arose in the middle part of last century.

--

Innovative liquid fuels? If you can't bring them to market in volume and sell them for close to $1/gallon you are not going to compete with electricity.

An EV using 0.35kWh/mile charging with $0.08/kWh electricity costs $0.028/mile to 'fuel'. EVs seem to be more enjoyable to drive, plugging in is preferable to visiting gas stations, and maintenance of EVs is lower. (As well, EVs will become more efficient.)

To reach $0.28/mile with a 50MPG ICEV you need $1.40/gallon fuel.
Thomas M
Thomas M
October 29, 2011
Consumers need to be aware of all the deceptions perpetrated by the wolves and stop consuming the wolves' goods. When or if you get excited over cheap gas, you must be aware of all the other products for which they over charge. When you pay for your gas, perhaps you get a cup of coffee at the same time. Do you realize or even think about the fact you are paying $12.00 a gallon. (ave. $1.50 / 16 oz) Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing, or lamb as Bill puts it.
William Fitch
William Fitch
October 28, 2011
Hi:

OWS is being seen by the controlling interests as the question, "Is that a little tiny tiny crack speck on the windshield?? They all peer in very close... No, no its just a little very tiny fruit fly... turn on the wipers.."

Don't get me wrong, I think it takes a very special person who is willing to put themselves in a position of being beaten, shot or gassed without arming themselves for defense when attacked. Its definitely not my personality.
Second though, putting yourself in a position to ultimately confront what is really no more than groups of tools is basically a waste of time. The controlling interests have demonstrated all through many thousands of years of history that they are prepared to let hoards and hoards of tools die. Only when such occurs and the threat of death is at THEIR door step, is there capitulation, and then of course it is too late.... They never learn their lesson. They always think that this point in time is different, that they can ultimately survive and conquer.
Third, the other controlling side has no problem is showing how they believe opposition leaders should be handled. You assassinate them. Whether in Brazil for the anti-deforestation activists, Monsanto funding local warlords in the third worlds to drive out local farmers, Bechtel Corporations water takeover in Bolivia, on and on...
How many board of directors or CEO's or key lobbyists have you seen taken out lately??
My question is, what ever happened to fight fire with fire as opposed to lambs lining up for the slaughter??
As an immutable fact of human history, it is only wolves that can defeat wolves, not lambs.... The existence of our country, where we stand today is because of being wolves against England, not lambs...
But you are totally correct in that you can boil a frog slowly... don't make him too uncomfortable, keep him mostly happy in the pot, for if you heat the water too fast and he jumps you have a big problem on your hands...

.....Bill

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Elisa Wood

Elisa Wood

Elisa Wood is a long-time energy writer whose work appears in many of the industry's top magazines and newsletters. Her blog on energy efficiency appears on more than 100 sites and has been picked up by the New York Times and Reuters. She...
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