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Six Weeks of Solar Hot Water Part V: Back to the Future!

By Andrew Holden
June 16, 2011   |   13 Comments

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13 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 13
June 17, 2011
I full agree with Clee. There is absolutely no connection between dense settlement and solar thermal use. And if there is it's the other way round, because single houses decide faster than investor owned building blocks or co-owned buildings. Also the costs of the installation may be a bit cheaper but it will need more buffer storage and longer pipee.
What is true is that a commanded economy with enough money and determination is much faster in pulling it through - whatever "it" may be.
I suspect that the whole argument is only there to convice people that they should not do it and provide a few more excuses.
Solar thermal for hot water should be mandatory by the building code, just like in Spain or a standard part of a nice house like flowers in the garden like in Austria and Germany. (or have you ever calculated the return on investment of your flower beds?)
Comment
2 of 13
June 17, 2011
In cities with district heating, solar thermal can make a useful contribution to meeting the city heat load in a highly cost effective manner, particularly when large arrays of solar water heaters are deployed. From some figures I have read, the cost of such large systems can be up to 6 times lower than individual family homes due to

1. Bulk purchase of hardware
2. Savings on the time taken to install and plumb each each collector
3. Savings on the planning and preparation of each collector
4. Substantial savings on scaffold cost per collector
5. Savings on selling, delivery and administration per collector installed.
6. Avoidance of the need for dedicated hot water storage, or if such storage is provided, far lower cost per volume of that storage.
7. Avoidance of "wasted heat" - heat goes into the district system and is more likely to be used by someone - with an individual house, there will be many occasions when not all the hot water is needed such as when the owners go on vacation.
Comment
3 of 13
June 17, 2011
5000 yuan = about us$700. But what's more important is that she says it's cheaper than electricity.

My neighbor across the street put thermal solar two years ago, here in central FL. I spoke with him last week; I asked him how was the system working out for him. He told me it was fine; but that it was not a good investment. He is saving $7-$8 per month in his electric bill. He estimates a 30 year payback period (he is in his mid 70s - two adults in the house).

Again, I think renewables' biggest enemy in most of the US is cheap utilities. Here in central FL we pay 9.9c per kwh. Extremely difficult for solar (PV and thermal) to compete against that retail price.
Comment
4 of 13
June 17, 2011
To give you a hint about cost per kWh (thermal) from a solar collector: recently we calculated that it should be between 2,5 - 3,5 Cents (but Euro-Cents!) over the lifetime. Of course there will be difficult circumstances or expensive suppliers, but correctly calculated I am sure it will be cheaper than natural gas.
But all this talk about cost is ridiculous as long as people spend 30.000 USD or more for their car every second year or for a pool or other gadgets that are just money spent.
For me the finest thing is: you set it up, pay for it and the water is warmed for free for 70% (in the Alps!) for the next 30 years or so. Never got an invoice from the sun so far.
Comment
5 of 13
June 17, 2011
Gunther - the problem is that when you get a house, it already has a working hot water supply system. When a hot water tank dies in the United States, your options are: us$400 for a replacement tank installed, about us$1500-$2000 for a tankless system that will bring very little savings and might not be able to supply enough pressure for 2 showers, or us$3000 for a thermal solar system.

Your car and gadget examples are valid; I see people paying over us$70/month for their mobile service on their "smart" phones, and I think their phones are indeed smarter than the users. But these are toys, people will pay for toys and entertainment or fashion statements. But hot water is not sexy.

The solution is regulation (ala Israel). All new construction must have thermal solar, and all new water tank heaters sold must be installed WITH a solar thermal.

If they can force me to buy car insurance; why not solar.
Comment
6 of 13
June 17, 2011
I lived in China (Nanjing area) for a year in 2000. All the apartment buildings were oriented North-South. You can see that from the solar arrays on the rooftops.

Everyone gets a shot at the sun, even on his balcony!

They aren't newcomers to efficiency.
Comment
7 of 13
June 17, 2011
Thanks everyone - great comments and responses here.

@ Gary - that's interesting. Do you happen to have a source on that quote?

@ Juan - I certainly agree. However, RE projects have had so much trouble getting municipal/zoning/bylaw traction that I feel we almost have to try that, but operate with the assumption it won't happen.

@ Richard

That's good to hear. Did you pick up on how the social/sales conversations were taking place in Nanjing? e.g, mass deployments, civic involvement, anything like that?
Comment
8 of 13
June 17, 2011
No. My Chinese is very poor--I observed the siting when walking around or through train windows (it's really dramatic, because the buildings can be seen to be lined up.)

I give them an "A" in solar orientation, but a fail in insulation, except for clothing. Most of the buildings I saw were uninsulated concrete constructiion.
Comment
9 of 13
June 18, 2011
Sorry Alphathermal,

I havn't been able to find the graph I remember seeing showing cost v scale for solar thermal, however I have found some installed costs for large scale solar water heating from Denmark and Germany, and costings for a proposed large scale solar thermal system in Bishkek Kyrgystan.

http://www.solarthermalworld.org/files/District%20heating.pdf?download

http://www.solar.uni-kassel.de/sat_publikationen_pdf/2008%20EuroSun%20Budig%20et%20al%20Solarassisted%20Water%20Preheating%20for%20a%20District%20Heating%20Net%20%E2%80%93%20A%20Potential%20Analysis%20in%20CIS%20countries.pdf
Comment
10 of 13
fsc
June 18, 2011
I live in Mexico and installed a water heater in my home. There are major differences in the way things are done.
Here in Mexico, I bought my solar hot water gizmo at my neighborhood hardware installed, and had it installed for $600 pesos, about $50 dollar by a plumber in about four hours. I deliberately chose a non-certified plumber in order to save money. He did a good job, but if he has screwed up, it would have leaked in MY house, so it was nobody else´s business. I did not require a permit from the city. I did not ask my neighbors if they agreed or they thought it was ugly. They do not OWN the view of my house. I receive no tax breaks neither federal, state nor city. I did not file a single form, and I did not hire a single 'expert'.
This way of doing things lowered my costs to make the heater profitable without tax breaks. The entire system cost me about $15,000 pesos ($1200 dollars) and is giving me a nice 25% return on investment while helping the planet.
Of all the government related things that work better in the US than in Mexico, this is not one of them. The system of increasing costs through regulations and then having your fellow taxpayers pay for half of the total cost is flawed. Americans aw expensive renewables are and the cost to tax payers. They don't realize that much of the cost is artificial.
For the good of the environment, and your own tax dollars, please get the government back into the founding fathers principle of live and let live. This is especially urgent in technologies that benefit not only the user but benefits the entire planet.
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Comment
11 of 13
Anonymous
June 18, 2011
@fsc - with all due respect, $1200 dollars for a "who knows if it will work" system installed by a "who knows if it will leak" plumber, in MEXICO! is a ripoff.

The government has nothing to do with anything. You do not have to ask your neighbors for approval (only if you live in a HOA subdivision). There are people in the US that install the systems without permit, they do it themselves, and costs them under $1000.

Your return of investment depends on how much you pay for the utility that heats up your water (electricity or gas).

Live and let live? Sure, you can go back to those days, just hope you are not black, or poor.

In fact, we need more regulation. Certain areas in this country need to require thermal solar water heating, double pane windows, etc.
Comment
12 of 13
June 18, 2011
fsc ... Thank you for your investment and helping to do your bit to resolve the GHG dilemma. Hiring non professionals to install your system may be fine in Mexico but our higher standards are for the protection of the initial purchaser and any potential future home owners. It is for the good of all. The weak live and let live argument is ridiculous in a country fraught with drug wars (thanks in part to US drug policy) and corruption.

richard karl China's uninsulated concrete sttructures are going to come back to haunt them soon. probably the dumbest thing they are doing.

Juan Pelotas ... please walk across the street and thank your neighbor for investing (no matter how small) in a future for those who will come after them. If the collective ROI in all of Florida is one less mountain top removal, it is a small price to pay.
Comment
13 of 13
June 19, 2011
Why the hell should it be a ripoff if someone installs a working system for 1200 USD in Mexico? Just because it shows that many experts and certificates make no difference - except the price?
On top of that I can confirm that the cost of solar thermal gets higher with higher subsidies. The benefits are typically skimmed off by vendors, producers and installers. But nobody notices because not many people buy solar thermal in two different countries.
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Andrew Holden

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