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Swedish Skeptics Confirm "Nuclear Process" in Tiny 4.7 kW Reactor

By Thomas Blakeslee
May 3, 2011   |   91 Comments

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91 Reader Comments
Comment
1 of 91
May 3, 2011
Very interesting. What do you think about this Glenn?
Comment
2 of 91
May 4, 2011
I would just settle for a good set of 360 deg photos in high res of the ENTIRE apparatus for starters.

.....Bill
Comment
3 of 91
May 4, 2011
John,

I think that Bill has a good suggestion for a place to begin. But the simple truth is that outside of a few very carefully controlled "demonstrations", and the records of a very few extremely biased "experiments", this doesn't ever work.

That says enough for me without any solid science backing it.
With a non-boiling water experiment it could be as simple as configuring the thermocouple to incorrectly measure the temperature of the input water by a few degrees and you can get your "3X return".
The fact that there were some "scientists" present is also not convincing, just as the fact that the climate denialists got "scientists" to sign some petition saying there's no global warming. The consensus of the scientific community comes to very careful conclusions based on irrefutable evidence. When THEY come to an agreement that there's something here, it will mean something...
But I'm suspecting fraud, so I doubt the community will be backing this any time soon.
Comment
4 of 91
May 4, 2011
You will find a great deal more information about cold fusion here:

http://lenr-canr.org/

Glenn Doty wrote:

'With a non-boiling water experiment it could be as simple as configuring the thermocouple to incorrectly measure the temperature of the input water by a few degrees and you can get your '3X return.''

The researchers from U. Bologna brought those thermocouples, and they spent weeks in December in January calibrating and testing them, along with the other instruments, and doing tests of the reactor before the Jan. 14 demonstration. In the most recent tests done Lewan of NyTeknik, Lewan also brought his own thermocouples, and calibrated them on site at tap water temperature and with boiling water in a pot.

(Furthermore, in all tests, the thermocouples begin in tap water and show the same temperature it it, so it would not be easy to make the outlet thermocouple diverge at higher temperatures. I believe inlet water variations exceed the 5 deg C Delta T temperature difference recorded during most of the Feb. 10 flowing water test.)

There are not just 'some scientists.' They are experts in energy and nuclear physics, including the chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' Energy Committee. (The Royal Swedish Academy is the organization that selected Nobel prize winners in physics and chemistry.)

Cold fusion has been observed thousands of times in hundreds of major laboratories, often at very high signal to noise ratios, for example with 100 W of heat output and no input. There is no chance all of these experiments are mistakes or fraud. Nickel-hydrogen cold fusion devices similar to Rossi's have not been as widely replicated, but there are many reports of them, so his results are no great surprise. The only surprise is his ability to control the reaction, which allows him to scale it up safely.
Comment
5 of 91
May 4, 2011
William Fitch wrote:

"I would just settle for a good set of 360 deg photos in high res of the ENTIRE apparatus for starters."

Several high res close-up photos have been published. See also the 360 deg close up video at the top of the NyTeknik article here:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece
Comment
6 of 91
May 4, 2011
Jed,

I have a simple question for you: Why did the demonstration last only 18 hours?

:)
Comment
7 of 91
May 4, 2011
Great article. I was disappointed, though, that there were not any links to our coverage.

We have a great deal of info about the Rossi E-Cat at http://RossiColdFusion.com which forwards to PESWiki.com, which also contains a lot of info about cold fusion and other exotic free energy technologies emerging. See http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Best_Exotic_Clean_Energy_Technologies
Comment
8 of 91
May 4, 2011
Glen Doty asks: "I have a simple question for you: Why did the demonstration last only 18 hours?"

Two reasons, I suppose. First, doing an experiment is a lot of work. You have to babysit it. Second, it used 65 tons of tap water for cooling during the 18 hours, and I suppose they did not want to run up their water bill.

You could cool the thing by cycling water through a large radiator and refrigerator, but that would cost a lot of money to set up. I have seen a test-bed industrial-scale calorimeter for water heaters that produce up to 100 kW. It cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Rossi claims that some of these reactors have run for months in factories. I have no independent verification of that. They were used for actual applications. They were not instrumented for calorimetry, so no one knows how much energy they generated. However, with a chemical source of fuel they would only run for a 10 minutes or so. (33 minutes if the entire 1 liter cell was filled with gasoline.) In that respect, 18 hours is no less convincing than 18 years would be.

Rossi is building lots of cells for his 1 MW reactor. He says he has about 100 cells running, mostly the ones that will be ganged together for the big reactor, but others in 4 different countries. Again, I have no independent verification of these claims.
Comment
9 of 91
May 4, 2011
Jed,

I am at a point where I need to see that there's no mirrors, no wires, not smoke. I'm confident that this is a fraud...
So when you stated that the thermocouples were not tampered with that left the most obvious fraud source to be a simple resistive element within the pipe and a power source. 18 hours is a very short time for a supposedly safe nuclear reaction process. We can assume that a supposed nuclear process didn't run out of fuel in 18 hours. However, if there was some kind of generator providing electricity to a hidden conductor within the water flow, then 18 hours is a very LONG time for the generator to keep running.

There's no reason that the water couldn't have been continuously recirculated from a storage tank. Constantly increasing temperatures within the tank would have helped to make a convincing case, and 65 tons of water is worth ~$10.00 in South Carolina. Whatever the costs might be there, the cost of water is not an excuse to cut short the process.

We plan on our FIRST lab demonstration (which we should have within 6 months) running for 1 month uninterrupted. If a process is sound, then you demonstrate that it is sound.

(And no, we aren't competing in the electricity generation business. We'll actually be in the electricity consumption business, so if free carbon-neutral energy suddenly became available, it would be great for us. But I don't expect to change our design in anticipation of cold fusion anytime soon.)
Comment
10 of 91
May 4, 2011
Glenn Doty wrote:

'I am at a point where I need to see that there's no mirrors, no wires, not smoke. I'm confident that this is a fraud...'

Your confidence seems misplaced. You know little about this experiment, and probably nothing about the other 14,000 positive cold fusion tests, so I doubt you are in a position to judge whether they are fraudulent or not.


'So when you stated that the thermocouples were not tampered with that left the most obvious fraud source to be a simple resistive element within the pipe and a power source.'

This would require large wires. For the first two ~16 kW tests it would call for two wires each 3 mm thick (AWG 8, 66 amps). As you see in the report, the photos and the video, the outside experts examined the device very carefully, top and bottom, lifting it off the table. They saw no sign of wires, or pipes for chemical fuel. You can see for yourself in the photos.


'There's no reason that the water couldn't have been continuously recirculated from a storage tank.'

Yes, there is. It would require a large radiator and a refrigerator (a lab cooler, much larger than any I have seen). Also, a pump capable of circulating the water through the machine and radiator at 60 L/min would be expensive. If you are doing multiple tests, it would make sense to purchase the pump, radiator and so on, but for a single 18-hour test it makes more sense to use a flow of tap water.


'Constantly increasing temperatures within the tank would have helped to make a convincing case . . .'

Constantly increasing temperature within a tank would have caused a steam explosion before 18 hours. You, or I, or anyone can always think of a better way to do a test. However these tests were good enough to convince any rational person. They even convinced the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society.
Comment
11 of 91
May 4, 2011
Glenn,

With regards to your question about the experiment lasting only 18 hours, I have read that Rossi claims to have had a device run for 2 years. I have also read that Rossi is operating with his own money, and that the powerplant in Greece would not be paid for until it is up and running. So it looks like the only person he would be "scamming" is himself. Also, NASA Langley's chief scientist recently stated that LENR is THE most promising new energy technology. I would hope that NASA'S chief scientist would know what he's talking about.

As a side note, it is really sad to see Fleischmann in the CBS piece. He should have been awarded the Nobel prize.
Comment
12 of 91
May 4, 2011
Let me briefly comment again on this notion that there may have been wires (or pipes) and no one noticed, and fraud is likely. Watch the Italian video here, and press cc to see the subtitles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4JUJhkpc3I

You will see that at one point, the people testing the machine lift it off the table, poke around underneath it, and put it on a weight scale. If there were a pair of 3 mm wires anywhere under or in it, they would notice.

At other times not shown in the video, they opened up the machine and looked everywhere inside it, except inside the 1 liter sealed cell. They plan to look inside of that soon, using mass spectroscopy in cooperation with CERN.

Note also that ~50 scientists were watching this. Many of them are well-known to me. They work at various national labs, Shell Oil and other established, professional institutions. I spoke with several of them later. They are mostly experimentalists, quite familiar with wires and meters, amps and volts. Most of them are in their 60s. They have been doing cold fusion experiments for 20 years, and other experiments for ~40 years. It is highly unlikely you could fool such experienced people with something like hidden wires, or with a transformer in the wall that produces high voltage and lower amps, or with any of the other methods that have been suggested.
Comment
13 of 91
May 4, 2011
Nickel is more common than nitrogen but less common than carbon in the earth's crust. With such an abundant and apparently safe energy source we all will need to rethink the definition of renewable versus sustainable energy.

If the radiation is truly insignificant as the reports indicate then everyone in this industry will need to reevaluate the energy economics of about 5 years from now. By then coal and gas fired plants will begin a refit and nuclear plants may be re-cored. Hybrid cars will have a fusion heated turbine-like generator to charge batteries like a Chevy Volt. Fossil fuels out, fission out, the new nuclear is "Nicklear" power.
Comment
14 of 91
May 4, 2011
@Gwizzz

Yes if this device works as claimed, it would basically solve the world's energy problems in one fell swoop. It's amazing that the media has not paid more attention to it.
Comment
15 of 91
May 4, 2011
If the Rossi device works reliably, and they begin manufacturing them next year as planned in the $280 million Defkalion venture, then this source of energy will obsolete all others within 10 or 20 years. Rossi predicts a cost of about 1 cent per kWh. I predict it will soon be 100 times cheaper than that, for various reasons.

I described some of this in a pdf-book here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

Recommended by Arthur C. Clarke and many distinguished professors. Also available in Portuguese and Japanese.
No image available
Comment
16 of 91
Anonymous
May 4, 2011
mmm. Does anyone have a copy of Rossi's personal and business electrical bill?
Comment
17 of 91
May 4, 2011
I do not think it is "amazing that the media has not paid more attention to" Rossi. His claims seem astounding. They resemble those of many previous energy scams. Reporters and scientists dismiss Rossi for this reason.

I would dismiss him myself if I did know that hundreds of other researchers have seen similar effects thousands of times. I myself have spent weeks in laboratories watching cold fusion gadgets produce heat. It is boring after a while.

Knowing that the effect has been widely replicated in hundreds of major laboratories puts everything in a different perspective. It makes Rossi far more believable. Believability in experimental physics is predicated on two things: independent replication and a high signal to noise ratio. Cold fusion met these goals back in 1990. There is not a single rational reason to doubt it exists.

The thing is, most reporters and scientists, and people such as Glen Doty know nothing at all about cold fusion. They do not realize it exists. They have not read any papers on the subject. So naturally they say "I'm confident that this is a fraud..." In 1906, three years after Kitty Hawk and one year after the Wrights flew in front a large crowd of leading citizens of Dayton Ohio for 40 minutes, every single newspaper and magazine in the U.S. -- especially Scientific American -- denounced them as frauds, charlatans and lunatics. Not one of those newspapers bothered to send someone to Dayton to ask the bank president and others if they had really seen a flight.

The editors at Scientific American today are no smarter than their predecessors. They told me they have never read a paper on cold fusion "because reading papers is not our job" but they are sure it is fraud and lunacy. (I uploaded that letter.)

The real question is not why is the mass media is ignoring Rossi, but why have they ignored the rest of cold fusion for 22 years? My answer: because they are stupid, and incurious.
Comment
18 of 91
May 4, 2011
I'm trying to keep an open mind, but when I read "hundreds of other researchers have seen similar effects thousands of times" it's hard.

Now, when I use the term "researchers" I mean individuals with advanced degrees in a relative field who are actively involved in research programs. Think Ph.D.s in university labs and employed by major corporations which fund significant research projects.

"Hundreds", that's a real big number. Were there hundreds of established researchers looking at this technology, seeing something real, and the scientific community not abuzz with discussion, well, something doesn't smell right.

And all the conspiracy stuff, that certainly raises flags. That harkens back to the carburetor that let one run their car on pure water that GM (or someone in Motor City) bought up and locked away in a vault.

I'll leave the door open, but I'll also recall eeStore and other 'breakthroughs' which had very enthusiastic believers/supporters but fizzled before they proved.

And as for the two Swedish scientists who couldn't find a trick, remember how it took several years before someone figured out how Uri Geller was "bending spoons with his mind".

Being of a scientific mind, I'll consider it slightly possibly true, but quite probably not....
Comment
19 of 91
May 4, 2011
Hi:

Well, for me, I think it would be great for the world. But I would still use solar thermal, PV and wind. Why use a fuel if you can tap the energy directly. A fuel, by definition is something that has to be "created" and or supplied. In this case, I can not make the fuel myself and why should I bother buying it when all the energy I need is free for the taking.
Zero dependence equals independence.... But still as a whole, it would be good for the planet...

.....Bill
Comment
20 of 91
May 4, 2011
Bob Wallace wrote:

"Now, when I use the term 'researchers' I mean individuals with advanced degrees in a relative field who are actively involved in research programs. Think Ph.D.s in university labs and employed by major corporations which fund significant research projects."

That's what I mean, too. I have 3,500 papers by roughly 2,000 authors, and every one of them is a PhD professional working at university or corporate laboratory, or a grad student. I do not add amateurs to the database.

1,400 of the papers were published in peer-reviewed journals, and copied from the libraries at Los Alamos and Georgia Tech. The others come from conference proceedings and official publications from Los Alamos, the U.S. Navy, the Italian Nat. Nuclear Laboratories, the Indian A.E.C., the NSF and so on.


"'Hundreds', that's a real big number. Were there hundreds of established researchers looking at this technology, seeing something real, and the scientific community not abuzz with discussion, well, something doesn't smell right."

Rather than depending on your sense of smell, I suggest you read some papers. It is not possible for you to judge scientific claims without reading them. You will find hundreds of papers here: LENR-CANR.org.


"And all the conspiracy stuff, that certainly raises flags."

What "conspiracy stuff"? You are the first to mention a conspiracy here.


"And as for the two Swedish scientists who couldn't find a trick, remember how it took several years before someone figured out how Uri Geller was 'bending spoons with his mind'."

Uri Geller was performing a trick with his hands -- literally sleight of hand. He fooled visual senses. Neither Geller nor anyone else can fool thermocouples or power meters. Furthermore we are not talking about one experiment and two professors. Unless you think hundreds of professional scientists are committing fraud, you can dismiss "fraud" from consideration.
Comment
21 of 91
May 4, 2011
It will take time to accept this technology but if the units being produced (105 sent to several different geographical areas with additional new units being built daily) are productive, then there is little reason except for old fashon stubbornness for disbelief. High temperature fusion has been receiving billions over the past decades and does not welcome this simple, effective, inexpensive technology which may take away their golden egg.
Comment
22 of 91
May 5, 2011
Jed,

Why on Earth are you specifying 3mm for a wire size? By drawing artificial (and absurd) boundaries for the possibility of fraudulent set-up, you are in effect contributing towards making a potential fraud more possible. I'm talking about using an electric current to generate heat. Smaller wires would be more able to do such a thing. So it's not like you would need to follow the American building codes for your wire sizes - especially if those wires were directly cooled with high water flow.

John,

I recognize that Rossi is largely self funded, as are we. I fully sympathize. But as is the case with us, we have to be able to prove ourselves every step of the way with every challenge, and one of the biggest issues that we will face when we have our first lab-scale demonstration completed is the accusation of fraud (even though for us, unlike for Rossi, we have very well understood and well characterized science underpinning our work).
So we have to incorporate into the design the ability for the system to be taken apart and explained.

I would expect no less of anyone else who attempts a demonstration of a new technology.

The fact that I am fully skeptical of "cold fusion" and immediately suspect fraud is something that I acknowledge upfront, but no matter what technology is being exhibited, it should be able to withstand any scrutiny, and any legitimate demonstration should anticipate a high level of scrutiny.
Comment
23 of 91
May 5, 2011
Glenn Doty asks: 'Why on Earth are you specifying 3mm for a wire size?'

The power is coming from a wall socket in Italy, where voltage is 240 V. The machine produced 16 kW most of the time. 16,000/240 = 67 amps. According to a widely published table of Wire Gauge and Current Limits, to conduct 67 amps over a short distance with an open wire you need AWG 8 grade wire. Actually, with insulated wire you need AWG 3 (5.7 mm diameter) and that is what you find in a 16 kW water heater. See:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

The wire shown in the video is of ordinary gauge used for a table lamp or possibly a computer, which is AWG 18 (1 mm). This is far too small to conduct 16 kW. This wire would burn up instantly, as would the watt meter at the wall socket and circuits inside the blue box, which Levi et al. examined carefully.

There is not the slightest chance this machine is drawing 16 kW of electricity.


'By drawing artificial (and absurd) boundaries for the possibility of fraudulent set-up . . .'

If you think that an ordinary 1 mm wire can conduct 16 kW then you do not know much about electricity. This is not artificial or absurd. This has nothing to do with American building codes. There is only 1 small wire going into the machine, and it is quite impossible to conduct this much power over such a small wire.


'especially if those wires were directly cooled with high water flow.'

The wire would have to extend from the machine to a source of electricity. It would have to be visible, in the air. How could it all be cooled in water? The water comes from a large transparent plastic bucket, goes through a pump, through the machine, and empties into a sink. There is no electric socket in the bucket or sink.

The machine has been taken apart. It cannot yet be explained, and neither can any of the other hundreds of cold fusion cells that have been tested over the years. That does not mean they are fraudulent.
Comment
24 of 91
May 5, 2011
Jed,

This is the first mention that the water came from a transparent bucket, rather than from a pipe in the wall (where it would be fairly easy to hide some heating wires). It is also the first mention that the water was rejected into a sink, rather than a pipe in the wall.

The claim was 16 kW of cooling. For water cooling 16 kW of power to a constant temperature, you would be rejecting at least ~2.4 l/min of water (assuming just under 100 C temperature rise - ice-water to ~99.9 C water). So I would never have guessed that there would have been a BUCKET from which the water was drawn at the inlet... I assumed a firm connection to pipes in the wall.

How big was the bucket?
Comment
25 of 91
May 5, 2011
Glenn Doty wrote:

'This is the first mention that the water came from a transparent bucket, rather than from a pipe in the wall (where it would be fairly easy to hide some heating wires).'

I have confused the issue. There have been 4 public tests, and numerous private ones. The one with large, transparent bucket was done on Jan. 14, 2011. It produced steam, so the flow rate was much smaller. It is described in this report:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LeviGreportonhe.pdf

This produced 16 kW, as did the flowing water follow up test on Feb. 10.

Something not mentioned in the report, but which you can see in the video, is that the bucket was left on the weight scale during the test to measure the total amount of water consumed. This is more reliable and easier than using a flowmeter. The flow was also measured with a liter cylinder and stopwatch, at the end of the hose going into the sink, before the machine was turned on.

In that same video you can see them removing the machine from the table, poking around under it, and putting it on the weight scale. As I mentioned they also took it apart. They would have found any wires capable of conducting this much power.

The video and various photos of the Jan. 14 test show the bucket, which looks to be 20 L to me. The flow rate was ~292 ml/min. The tests and basic facts about the calorimetry are listed here:

http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm


'It is also the first mention that the water was rejected into a sink, rather than a pipe in the wall.'

They used the sink in every test but the most recent one, in which they sparged the steam into cold water.
Comment
26 of 91
May 5, 2011
I've been following Rossi's E-Cat story since January, and have dug into all existing information about it and him. I think this is a breakthrough that will change history. But as Arthur Schopenhauer used to say:


"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Regards
Carlo Ombello
Comment
27 of 91
May 5, 2011
Glenn-Doty wrote:

"we have to incorporate into the design the ability for the system to be taken apart and explained"

As you may have read, Rossi has been unable to get a patent. If he were to divulge the exact makeup of the device, what would prevent others from copying his design and profiting from it?
Comment
28 of 91
May 5, 2011
I would really like this latest news to be true, just as I was very excited and hopeful when Fleischmann and Pons first announced their cold fusion breakthrough back in 1989. However, I don't think it's fair to castigate the skeptics the way this article does. The reality is that the Fleischmann-Pons process was erratic at best, and could never be successfully and consistently replicated by other scientists and engineers.

That's the key: Provide a list of exact instructions which will allow anyone to construct a device to consistently generate excess heat, and all the doubts will instantly evaporate. Skeptics will be silenced. And we don't initially need a theory as to how it works, because that will quickly be ferreted out once scientists have something they can experiment with.

Now I can understand why Rossi or other LENR investigators may not want to do this, since they'd like to first commercialize their results and become fabulously wealthy before competitors can move in. I have no objection to that; if their devices work, then they'll have earned their billions and the entire world will be enormously better off.

But until then it's not unreasonable for most people to exhibit a healthy skepticism.
Comment
29 of 91
May 5, 2011
You wrote: "The reality is that the Fleischmann-Pons process was erratic at best, and could never be successfully and consistently replicated by other scientists and engineers."

That's not quite right. The Italian Nat. Labs, SRI and Energetics Technology make it work just about every time. Granted, the results are inconsistent, and too small to be of practical use, but they are always positive. The control parameters are well understood, and when they are met, the effect ALWAYS appears. See, for example:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHthesignifi.pdf

See also the graph "Electrodes made from the same lot of materials (Pd) produce consistent levels of excess heat" here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusiona.pdf

The Pd-D nanoparticle gas loaded cells work every time as far as I know. Mitsubishi's gas loaded cells produce transmutations every time.


"That's the key: Provide a list of exact instructions which will allow anyone to construct a device to consistently generate excess heat . . ."

That's called a patent. That's what Rossi and others are trying to get. There is no chance that "anyone" will be able to construct a device, since it is roughly as difficult as making a transistor or NiCad battery. A "person having ordinary skill in the art" (Mr. Phosita) can replicate cold fusion now. If Rossi is granted a patent, Mr. Phosita and will be able to replicate, or the patent will be ruled invalid. ("PHOSITA" is patent jargon.)

Unfortunately, the U.S. Patent Office summarily rejects all cold fusion applications without review, citing the New York Times and other mass media articles as proof that the effect does not exist. This policy was established in March 1989. This has held back the progress of cold fusion.


"But until then it's not unreasonable for most people to exhibit a healthy skepticism."

It is unreasonable for people who have not read the literature to hold any opinion, positive or negative.
Comment
30 of 91
May 5, 2011
Uri Geller also fooled an instrument. In this case, a camera -- making 'psychic' photographs by slipping off the lenscap when he thought nobody would see him. And nobody did. But the sponsors of the psychic photos, Popular Photography's editors, placed a fish-eye lens on the camera and it took an image of Geller's sleight of hand. Magicians can manipulate instruments by deception just as they can fool the eyes. What you may think is being presented to the instrument may be something entirely different or for example, power may be supplied to a device "around" an instrument in a subtle way you may not be able to guess or find. I don't know how major successful stage illusionists do their "tricks". Do you? Some are absolutely amazing but illusions they are!

There are ways that Rossi could cheat the energy measurements by sleight of hand and you'd need a good, technically skilled magician to catch him and not a scientist. Scientists tend to look for mistakes rather than deception.

Rossi's general vagueness is what disturbs me the most. He has 97+ working E-Cats in 4 different locations? OK. Where are the photos of those installations? Who are the local managers who can vouch that the devices have worked for 2 years and provided useful energy?

Rossi says he will provide E-Cats for testing to at least two major universities. OK. When? To whom? Why not right now? If he's worried about secrets, he can provide them as black boxes but the people testing the devices, not Rossi, should provide all the connections. That sort of independent test has not been done. Rossi has always pulled all the major strings so to speak. That's just a few reasons why this thing seems more like a scam than a genuine breakthrough.
Comment
31 of 91
May 5, 2011
You wrote: 'Magicians can manipulate instruments by deception just as they can fool the eyes.'

I do not think so. Many people have made this claim, but no one has proposed an actual method of changing the output from a thermocouple, or making a flow of water 20 times less than it appears to be while simultaneously changing the reading on a digital weight scale. No magician can make a 1 mm wire conduct 16 kW of electricity. Magicians fool people's perceptions. Thermocouples and watt meters are immune to such tricks.

In any case Rossi has been working with Focardi and other colleagues for years. They are distinguished professors at universities and national labs. I do not think that they are engaged in fraud. They and others have been doing Ni-H cold fusion for 15 years; if it was fraud, they would have been caught by now. There are hundreds of cold fusion researchers. The Sci. Am., the Washington Post and others have been accusing them of fraud for the last 22 years without a shred of evidence, and believe me, they and I are heartily sick of hearing that. If you have no evidence for fraud I suggest you please shut up about it.


'Rossi's general vagueness is what disturbs me the most. He has 97+ working E-Cats in 4 different locations? OK. Where are the photos of those installations? . . .'

He is under no obligation to reveal any of this to anyone. If you do not wish to believe this, I suggest you look at the calorimetry only. It is not a bit vague. It is industry standard.


'Rossi says he will provide E-Cats for testing to at least two major universities. OK. When? To whom? Why not right now?'

Because he is busy. Also, he does not wish to endanger his intellectual property, which is worth far more than, say, Microsoft's entire product line.
Comment
32 of 91
May 5, 2011
Jed,

You really need to learn something about electricity before making some of your comments.

The codes for wire sizes/transmission were based on an attempt to limit heat losses...

The comment "no one can make a 1mm wire conduct 16 kW of electricity" makes you sound as if you were still in grade school. The only effect of conducting 16 kW of electricity through 1mm wire would be an extraordinary amount of heat rejection, which would be the entire goal of a fraudulent setup.

You never responded to my post concerning the bucket... How big was this bucket, and how often was it filled.

You claimed that 65 tons of water were used over 18 hours. That works out to ~60 l/minute... or roughly the flow required for 6 showers. If that was coming out of a bucket and being rejected into a sink, then I would like to see this sink and this bucket. The input/output water flow would obviously have to be piped into a direct connection to city water... which gives ample opportunity to hide a wire connection.



Maryyugo is correct, if Rossi wanted to silence his critics, he could easily provide his 50 cc "reactor" encased in 2 inches of epoxy (tamper proof - $50) with a bent 1-ft section of 1" pipe extending from both ends (keeping the private reactor private $10) and ask any qualified skeptic (I volunteer) to hook it up and take the measurements (I'll even volunteer the use of our lab, if the proponents of "cold fusion" would be willing to pay us $5000/day (our losses for the delay in our own critical work) for the use of the lab if and only if the results are found wanting... this should be easily secured if there are indeed hundreds of researchers convinced that this will work). I'll even pay the $200 for the water required for a month-long test out of my own pocket.
Comment
33 of 91
May 5, 2011
"It is unreasonable for people who have not read the literature to hold any opinion, positive or negative."

Sorry, that's not the way it works. The burden of proof is on the person making an assertion. And the scientific method involves making falsifiable predictions and then producing replicatible results which confirm those theoretical predictions. Until then, skepticism is the correct default state.

If you want to be hopeful and optimistic and trustful in the integrity of Rossi and others, that's fine. But other people are going to wait for more tangible proof, and that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. If your evaluation is correct, then that proof will come; it just may take awhile longer.
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34 of 91
May 5, 2011
Glenn Doty wrote: 'The only effect of conducting 16 kW of electricity through 1mm wire would be an extraordinary amount of heat rejection . . .'

My point exactly. The wire, the watt meter and the ICs in the blue box would instantly catch on fire. Ask any electrician! Why else do you think they use such heavy gauge wires on 16 kW water heaters? If they could use 1 mm wires, like the one in the photo, they would. Think of all the wire they would save!


'You never responded to my post concerning the bucket... How big was this bucket, and how often was it filled.'

I did respond. That was in the Jan. 14 test. As I noted it looks to be about 20 L.


'You claimed that 65 tons of water were used over 18 hours. That works out to ~60 l/minute... or roughly the flow required for 6 showers.'

That was the Feb. 10 test, with a much higher flow rate to prevent boiling.

As I said, I confused the issue, talking about two different tests with the same gadget. Sorry about that. The point was, in the first test there was no place to plug it in, in the 20 L bucket or sink.


'The input/output water flow would obviously have to be piped into a direct connection to city water... which gives ample opportunity to hide a wire connection.'

As I mentioned, 50 professors looked at this gadget. Several of them took it apart. On video you see them disconnecting it from the hose and putting it on the weight scale. So they would notice a wire coming in from that hose. Suggestions like this are fantasy and hand-waving, impossible in the real world.

I think we have done the 'fraud' aspects of this to death. Rossi and his colleagues doing Ni-H cold fusion are not committing fraud. If you want to believe that they along with several hundred distinguished scientists worldwide are engaged in fraud, publishing fake papers in peer-reviewed journals, then you are a Conspiracy Theorist. Such beliefs are immune to logic or facts.
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35 of 91
May 5, 2011
dpwiener wrote: ''It is unreasonable for people who have not read the literature to hold any opinion, positive or negative.'

Sorry, that's not the way it works. The burden of proof is on the person making an assertion. And the scientific method involves making falsifiable predictions and then producing replicatible results which confirm those theoretical predictions.'

That would be theory-based science. These people are experimentalists. Their job is to make experiments replicatable and to discover the control parameters. That is what they have done. It is up to theoreticians to explain this. If that were not the case, no new experimental discovery would enter the canon of science, since all experimental discoveries are unexplained at first, or they would not be discoveries, only confirmations. We would reject things like high temperature superconductors under those rules.

The fact that a replicated observation cannot be explained by theory, or that it appears to contradict theory, is never a valid reason to reject that observation. That turns the scientific method upside-down. When replicated experiments conflict with theory, the experiments always win, theory always loses, no exceptions granted.

In any case, if you have not read the literature, you have no idea what any of these people have done, in theory or experiment. If you know nothing about the work -- the instruments, methods and results -- you have no right to any opinion, period. Science cannot be done by ESP. You cannot judge that which you know nothing about.
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36 of 91
May 5, 2011
I think JR is confounding Rossi with other LENR experimenters. Far as I know, nobody else has reported consistent production of so much energy in such a controllable way for the length of experiments that Rossi has. Nobody. If that's wrong, I'd love to read the paper.

Rossi's claims, as to the number of working units, how well they work, how much power they put out, and how long they've run making that power, all are unique and uniquely extravagant claims. It's inappropriate to lump those with more modest ones.

I've not seen any accusation of fraud here regarding the people who examined Rossi's device and observed his tests. There's no reason Rossi could not be fooling them as well. It's not all that hard to deceive scientists. Obviously I don't know a good candidate for a possible method but that in no way rules out that one might exist. As I pointed out, illusionists make convincing performances and as often as not, I have no idea how they did it. I've seen a few illusions revealed on TV programs and I would have never guessed that they were as difficult and complex to perform as they were nor would I have ever devised the method. That's why a magician should be on any team that investigates claims such as Uri Geller's and Rossi's.
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37 of 91
May 5, 2011
"The fact that a replicated observation cannot be explained by theory, or that it appears to contradict theory, is never a valid reason to reject that observation."

I agree with that statement, but again the key word is "replicated". Until it can be independently replicated, it's just an assertion, and the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the person(s) asserting it. There is no obligation to immediately provide the world with adequate proof (i.e., independent replication) if the desire is to keep the process secret pending commercialization. But then don't be surprised if the world remains skeptical in the meantime.

Until now all of the literature I've read on LENR experiments has been about either secret processes, or processes and devices which did not produce consistently replicatible results, or experiments which supposedly produced consistent but relatively small increments of excess heat. In the latter case there are a large variety of external factors which could account for the excess heat, such as poorly calibrated instruments or sloppy techniques or confirmation bias or other marginal operating conditions.

The good thing about Rossi's device is that it supposedly produces huge amounts of excess heat, enough to dwarf such issues as instrument errors or operator errors/bias or poor test procedures. Once Rossi provides the information whereby other people can independently replicate his device, it will be easy to prove whether it works or not And once it is proven to work, I don't expect it to take long to deduce the theory underlying its operation.

But until then, Rossi and his supporters are just going to have to live with the fact that most people will be skeptics.
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38 of 91
May 5, 2011
maryyugo wrote: 'I think JR is confounding Rossi with other LENR experimenters.'

Rossi has been working with other LENR experimenters for many years! He has been collaborating with researchers in Italy and the U.S. They have contributed to his work, independently tested his machines, and replicated important aspects of it. Furthermore, his research is a replication of previous work by his collaborator and close friend Focardi. Rossi is not isolated or unique, except that he has succeeded more than others.


'Far as I know, nobody else has reported consistent production of so much energy in such a controllable way for the length of experiments that Rossi has. Nobody. If that's wrong, I'd love to read the paper.'

Fleischmann and Pons did, at Toyota. They did not achieve such high power levels, but their boiling experiments worked continuously for 2 to 3 months, at about 100 W. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf


'Rossi's claims, as to the number of working units, how well they work, how much power they put out, and how long they've run making that power, all are unique and uniquely extravagant claims. It's inappropriate to lump those with more modest ones.'

This is Focardi's work too. Of course we should 'lump' his present work in with what he has been doing for the last 15 years. People achieved these power densities and temperatures in 1991. Focardi in 1994. The only thing missing was control. If they could have controlled the reaction as well as Rossi does, they would have scaled up to 16 kW reactors in 1992. Since Rossi can scale up safely, why do you have any trouble believing he has made hundreds of reactors? Why wouldn't he? Mizuno made hundreds of small ones, as did Bockris, Fleischmann and others.

Did you think cold fusion would drag on forever as a test-tube effect? The whole purpose has been to scale up! If Rossi hadn't done it, Arata or Mizuno would have. Granted, Mizuno almost killed himself trying.
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39 of 91
May 5, 2011
dpwiener wrote: '. . . but again the key word is 'replicated'. Until it can be independently replicated, it's just an assertion, and the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the person(s) asserting it.'

Rossi is replicating previous work. There are plenty of Ni-H experiments in the literature. You seem to be saying you will believe a reaction at 1 W, 10 W, 100 W . . . but not 16,000 W. That makes no sense. There is no indication anywhere in the literature that cold fusion is limited to marginal reactions. On the contrary, large reactions almost killed Mizuno twice, Rossi has has 37 cell blow up, and several other cells have exploded producing far more energy than all of the chemical energy available in the cell.

The only limitation has been control, and the distinct likelihood that a large scale cell will blow your head off. If that had not been the case, we would have had cold fusion powered cars by now.


'Until now all of the literature I've read on LENR experiments has been about either secret processes, or processes and devices which did not produce consistently replicatible results, or experiments which supposedly produced consistent but relatively small increments of excess heat.'

Well then you haven't read much literature. Which authors do you have in mind? I suggest you ignore the marginal ones and read some of the mainstream, first-rate ones.
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May 5, 2011
"Rossi is replicating previous work. There are plenty of Ni-H experiments in the literature. You seem to be saying you will believe a reaction at 1 W, 10 W, 100 W . . . but not 16,000 W. That makes no sense. There is no indication anywhere in the literature that cold fusion is limited to marginal reactions."

You are misinterpreting my comments again, and consequently I am losing interest in continuing this dialogue. I am not saying that I "believe a reaction at 1 W, 10 W, 100 W . . . but not 16,000 W." Just the opposite. A reaction which produces large amounts of energy gets outside the bounds of experimental error or operator error or unaccounted-for factors. Hence it should be much easier to prove that Rossi's device works than to prove that earlier experiments were truly generating small amounts of excess heat. But now Rossi's results need to be independently replicated. Until he is willing to make public the information which will enable such replication, people will reasonably remain skeptical.
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41 of 91
May 6, 2011
The only information Rossi is keeping secret are the elements of the catalyst. It is likely that other LENR researchers will soon find these elements on their own.
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42 of 91
May 6, 2011
Rossi is not the only scientist who has found a practical LENR reaction:

" Ukranian inventor, Profesor Bolotov, has developed a cold fusion system that utilizes the transmutation of zirconium (in the form of zirconium oxide) into other elements to produce energy."

His work is being done in Poland.
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43 of 91
May 6, 2011
In the message above I mentioned that Fleischmann et al. sustained high power density and temperatures for 2 to 3 months with many cells. There were others. Most notably, I should have said that Focardi et al. did. That's very important, since they were using Ni-H, similar to Rossi, and because Focardi is Rossi's co-worker. See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CampariEGphotonandp.pdf

(Oops. I have to fix the Fig. 6 caption in this paper.)

As you see, there are 9 authors from two universities. This was published in 2004. This paper shows two samples: one that produced 900 MJ in 278 days, and one that produced 600 MJ in 319 days. The first one is 37 W average. That's a respectable power level for such a small device. Nothing like Rossi, but still, it is easily measured.

As I said, there is plenty of precedent for Rossi. The people he is working with have seen similar effects for years with nickel. They were using macroscopic samples, whereas Rossi is using nanoparticle powder. Arata made a similar breakthrough with palladium nanopowder long before Rossi.

Unless you think these 9 professors and many others are committing fraud as well, there is no reason to suppose that Rossi is now. They are doing more-or-less the same thing, and from a scientific perspective, 900 MJ over 278 days is just as astounding as the 1,000 MJ in 18 hours Rossi produced on Feb. 10.
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44 of 91
May 7, 2011
For those interested, a 24 minute video on Rossi can be found at:

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/05/05/the-magic-of-mr-rossi-in-english/

Even though the actual process of how the hydrogen nuclei is absorbed into the atomic nucleus of nickel is not known, the technology works to the satisfaction of a non-governmental investment group in Greece; they have the design of the finished 10 Kw unit with plans to manufacture and sell them.
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45 of 91
May 7, 2011
Sorry to nitpick but I believe Defkalion plans to make 20 kW units, not 10 kW ones. 10 kW would be small. At the Lowe's web site, a large gas-fired water heater has 50 gallon capacity and is 18 kW (60,000 btus per hour).

In other news, note that Rossi was granted a patent on Friday, April 6:

http://www.uibm.gov.it/uibm/dati/Avanzata.aspx?load=info_list_uno&id=1610895&table=Invention&#ancoraSearch

This will speed up replications. If people skilled in the art cannot replicate from the patent, it will be declared invalid.
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46 of 91
May 7, 2011
The patent should remove the last obstacle to independent testing of the E-Cat by reliable sources such as university physics departments and government labs. Let's hope so anyway. And by independent, I mean where Rossi's hands are nowhere near the E-cat and he has nothing to do with the power in and out. And that it's put to a very long test at adequate power levels with input and output power properly measured.

I wonder if Rossi has considered having the device tested by Earthtech (Hal Puthoff, Scott Little, etc.): http://earthtech.org/ ? They're capable and it's within their specialty area. They have excellent calorimeters and other measurement equipment and they seem to be quite impartial.
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47 of 91
May 7, 2011
"I wonder if Rossi has considered having the device tested by Earthtech"

I doubt it. An MIT scientist had asked to evaluate Rossi's device, and Rossi's response was that he was welcome to evaluate one after he purchases it. Rossi is not your typical egghead, and has never done presentations at any of the "Cold Fusion" conferences. A lot of the criticism probably comes from his "lone wolf" style.
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48 of 91
May 7, 2011
You may read in detail about the seven reasons we should accept and promote Rossi's E-Cat at:

http://pesn.com/2011/05/07/9501828_Seven_Reasons_To_Embrace_Rossis_E-Cat/

1) The Environment
2) Safety and an End to Conventional Fission Based Nuclear Power
3) The Global Recession
4) More Peace and Less War
5) A Reduction in Pathological Skepticism
6) Space Exploration
7) Hope
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49 of 91
May 7, 2011
Cold Fusion

Cold fusion, is no illusion,
But a real source of power,
Nickel nuclei, taking on the fly,
Protons from hydrogen hour by hour,
As the hydrogen disappears,
Pure copper then appears,
True low temperature changes,
The atomic structure rearranges,
High temperature fusion to become,
Just for the stars and the sun.
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50 of 91
May 7, 2011
I doubt that Rossi would be interested in tests by Earthtech. He is extremely busy with the 1 MW reactor project now. As soon as that is complete, he says he intends to give prototype reactors to the University of Uppsala and U. Stockholm. He has already given U. Stockholm before and after samples of the nickel powder, presumably under a non-disclosure agreement (NDA).

I believe he has placed a unit in U. Bologna as well, where his old friend Focardi and others are testing it.

He told me there are three labs presently testing it independently, under NDAs. I heard from one of them last year.

Focardi has been involved in testing for 3 years. I think he would have spotted a fake by now. Focardi and others have also visited the Eon S.r.l. warehouse in Bondeno where the big heater has been running nonstop for a long time. Six months or more. Prof. Stremmenos described that here:

http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/05/stremmenos-cold-fusion-will-solve.html
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51 of 91
May 7, 2011
Well, on another forum, an Italian speaker says that the document JR linked to is a patent app and not a patent award if I understood it correctly. I can't read Italian so I don't know.

As for the new link to Stremmenos, it's sort of long. Can you cite the portion about the big heater for 6 months? How was this verified?

Edit to add: is this what you're referring to:
"... in Bondeno, Eon has heated up this large warehouse of Rossi’s, I don’t know how many square or cubic metres...”
I didn’t believe it either. So I said, “Sergio, are you sure?”. “Of course,”, he says, “are you doubting me?”, “I don’t doubt you one bit, but to go from Watts to Kilowatts, that’s a miracle. "

If so, that's a pretty thin anecdote and not a reliable report of any sort of test. Has anyone made any measurements on the "large heater" and published a reliable report?

/end of edit

I'm not clear on why U Upsala and Stockholm have to wait for their sample E-Cats to test if Rossi, as he said elsewhere, can make several per day. A delay of one day in producing the megawatt unit would seem a good tradeoff for world wide acceptance following adequate testing. It's this sort of thing as well as a lack of interest in having a competent outfit like Earthtech involved which raises suspicions of a scam.
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52 of 91
May 7, 2011
You wrote: ". . . an Italian speaker says that the document JR linked to is a patent app and not a patent award . . . I can't read Italian so I don't know."

I do not know any Italian or anything about the Italian P.O. either. The Dekalion site says it is a patent but perhaps they do not know either. See: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/


". . . If so, that's a pretty thin anecdote and not a reliable report of any sort of test. Has anyone made any measurements on the 'large heater' and published a reliable report?"

Many people have observed it and made various tests but none are public yet as far as I know. I am certain this is not a "thin anecdote." There are two possibilities:

1. Focardi, Stremmenos and many others who claim they tested the cells and worked with Rossi for years are engaged in a gigantic fraud in cahoots with Rossi. It is not possible he has fooled them.

2. It is not a fraud.


"I'm not clear on why U Upsala and Stockholm have to wait for their sample E-Cats to test . . ."

They have to wait because he is trying to meet an impossible deadline for the 1 MW reactor. That's all there is to it.


"A delay of one day in producing the megawatt unit would seem a good tradeoff for world wide acceptance following adequate testing. It's this sort of thing as well as a lack of interest in having a competent outfit like Earthtech involved which raises suspicions of a scam."

To put this diplomatically, some people question Earthtech's technical prowess. Not their honesty. I think universities will enhance credibility more than Earthtech would.

The point you are missing is that Rossi does not give a hoot about world wide acceptance or the fact that you suspect fraud. His priority is to finish up the 1 MW reactor, have it tested, and get paid $140 million for it. He says that he will establish credibility by selling machines, and people will believe it when thousands of machines are installed and working in a few years.
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53 of 91
May 7, 2011
The Italian Wikipedia says the following, translated by Google:

All Italian Patent and Trademark Office has filed an application on behalf of his wife Andrea Rossi Maddalena Pascucci ie, for a patent for the Energy Catalyser (Patent No. 0001387256). The title of the patent is " process and apparatus for exothermic reactions, particularly nickel and hydrogen . " The filing date is April 9, 2008. The patent was granted April 6, 2011.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalizzatore_di_energia_di_Rossi_e_Focardi#Ufficio_italiano_brevetti_e_marchi

If it was filed in 2008 I do not suppose this would be a notice of the patent application. It wouldn't take them this long! Someone else told me this is "issued"

Patent number 0001387256/ April 6th 2011 on the WIPO application
number MI2008A 000629

See:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2009125444
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54 of 91
May 8, 2011
Well... from another forum, here is the English (or rather 'Engrish') patent application:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=84vwAAAAEBAJ&dq=US20110005506

That seems to be similar but not quite the same text linked above by JD.

I haven't studied it but a superficial browsing isn't encouraging. At the least it's very badly written or translated.

If you really believe that Rossi can't spare two 10 or 20KW units out of a megawatt to get proper testing and to dispel skepticism, then you're very gullible. What's the big hurry to finish the Greek plant? A hurry so big a half day's production makes a difference. In any scam, it's the part you don't get that will get you. Too much of how this is being done doesn't make the slightest sense. To my view anyway. The more I see and read the more suspicious I get-- not less.

Tell me again why nobody reliable and credible has inspected, tested and reported in meticulous detail on the big heater in that factory? It's even mentioned in the (US) patent app.

In fact, I copied the image of that statement here: http://imgur.com/2Wxp9 and the text is:

"[0060]A practical embodiment of the inventive apparatus, installed on Oct. 16,
2007, is at present perfectly operating 24 hours per day, and provides an amount
of heat sufficient to heat the factory of the Company EON of via Carlo Ragazzi
18, at Bondeno (Province of Ferrara)."


So we're supposed to believe that an entire large factory building has been heated exclusively by a cold fusion type of device since 2007 and nobody has seen and reported on it? And nobody has provided a smaller device to a major facility for comprehensive and reliable testing in FOUR years!? I don't think that's very likely but there it is in the patent application.

Others asked this question back in January and I don't think Rossi has provided a satisfactory answer. See: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H-Ni_Fusion/message/38
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55 of 91
May 8, 2011
Apparently the factory in question has a phone number -- maybe some Italian speaker can ask them about their heating bills?

EON S.R.L.
Via Carlo Ragazzi, 18
44012 BONDENO (FE)Italia

Tel.: 0532897038
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56 of 91
May 8, 2011
"If you really believe that Rossi can't spare two 10 or 20KW units out of a megawatt to get proper testing and to dispel skepticism, then you're very gullible."

You misunderstand. He has already had lots of proper testing, and he does not care about skepticism. On the contrary, it works to his advantage from a business point of view.


"What's the big hurry to finish the Greek plant? A hurry so big a half day's production makes a difference."

It would take a lot longer than a half-day to supply the universities with machines. They would have to be trained. The big hurry is not for the Greek plant, it is for the confirmation of the 1 MW machine. Rossi is out of money, and he will be paid $140 million after he delivers the machine and they confirm that it works.


"Tell me again why nobody reliable and credible has inspected, tested and reported in meticulous detail on the big heater in that factory? It's even mentioned in the (US) patent app."

Lots of reliable and credible people have inspected the factory heater, but they have not reported on it publicly in any detail. I do not know why.


"So we're supposed to believe that an entire large factory building has been heated exclusively by a cold fusion type of device since 2007 and nobody has seen and reported on it?"

No, you are supposed to believe that Focardi and others are minimally competent and they can tell the factory heater is real, as they reported. You have no basis for thinking it is not likely, given the performance in the recent public demonstrations.


"And nobody has provided a smaller device to a major facility for comprehensive and reliable testing in FOUR years!? I don't think that's very likely but there it is in the patent application."

Several people have been provided smaller devices, all under NDAs. I have heard from some of them.

I suggest you judge this claim based on calorimetry and replicated scientific facts, rather than Rossi's personality and behavior.
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57 of 91
May 8, 2011
"Several people have been provided smaller devices, all under NDAs. I have heard from some of them." Sounds like the same "strategy" used by Steorn whose activities for years led nowhere. I never understood why an NDA would preclude reporting the operating characteristics of the device under independent testing and publication of those in a peer reviewed journal. Can you explain to me what would be proprietary about indepedent measurements of input and output power and reporting of the measurement method without revealing the interior contents? Another thing. If Rossi allowed that, it would insure any amount of money he needed immediately. So the existence of such tests without reports makes no sense at all. Can you (JD) explain it?
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58 of 91
May 8, 2011
''Several people have been provided smaller devices, all under NDAs. I have heard from some of them.' Sounds like the same 'strategy' used by Steorn whose activities for years led nowhere.

I am not familiar with Steorn, but this is the same strategy Boeing, IBM or any other company employs when it is developing new technology. When it farms out work to consulting engineers, it makes them sign an agreement not to say anything about the job. Discussing the performance even without technical details would tip off rivals. I assume that is why Rossi wanted no discussion, but I am not privy to the NDAs, so I wouldn't know.


'I never understood why an NDA would preclude reporting the operating characteristics of the device under independent testing and publication of those in a peer reviewed journal.'

I can't imagine Rossi would want that, any more than IBM would want their upcoming stuff in a trade magazine. Anyway, I doubt a peer-reviewed journal would take it. Note, however, they have published lots of papers of similar, small-scale claims for both Ni-H and Pd-D. In view of these small-scale claims, I do not understand why you have any difficulty believing the big one.


'Can you explain to me what would be proprietary about indepedent measurements of input and output power and reporting of the measurement method without revealing the interior contents?'

As I said, to avoid tipping off rivals.


'Another thing. If Rossi allowed that, it would insure any amount of money he needed immediately.'

Until recently he has had plenty of his own money. If things go according to plan he will soon have $140 million. Why does he need another fund-raising plan at this stage?

Anyway, I recommend you stop speculating about Rossi and his motives, and look at calorimetry and replications of the Ni-H effect instead. You cannot judge a scientific claim by looking at personalities -- only facts.
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59 of 91
May 8, 2011
@maryyugo

I don't think Rossi has a problem with money right now. I also don't think he cares about the skeptics. He only cares about putting his device into production, and selling them. Defkalion plans on producing 300,000 units/year.

With regards to peer reviewed papers, Widom-Larson has published them, so has Piantelli. In fact, one of the reasons Rossi had such a hard time getting a patent was because Piantelli already had one for a Nickel-Hydrogen Cold Fusion device.

It appears the skeptics had it wrong, and Cold Fusion is real. And Rossi has an operational, reliable, low cost design.
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60 of 91
May 9, 2011
You may not agree, JR and JB, but I am not interested in debating claims to small amounts of LENR. I'm happy to say about those that I just don't know. Maybe the excess energy is from LENR... maybe it's from elsewhere. The debate continues.

But Rossi is quantitatively very different and that's important because it should be extremely easy to test properly. Either Rossi is interested in having this done and having everyone including the scientific community, the press and the general public know about and believe in his work or he's not. So far, he has not behaved consistently about this and I find it concerning because it is exactly how free energy scammers have behaved in the past.

@JR: When Boeing or IBM provide samples under NDA's they don't demonstrate the same sort of samples in public and with the press present so as to convince everyone that the device is genuine. As to Rossi being concerned about revealing what the device does, how would anything be more revealing than the show he put on? The only thing a better test protocol would be is more reliable and credible. And any invention this spectacular will be stolen anyway-- rely on it.

Does Rossi need money? Does he need publicity? I don't know. If he doesn't care about skeptics, why bother to show the E-Cat prototypes at all? Why not just wait until the megawatt plant is built and show that? Then, there'd be no argument.

Why not give *ONE* E-Cat and a set of instructions to some competent people at some entirely independent reliable organization for precision testing of input and output power for a long run? That also would remove argument. As someone wrote on another forum about Rossi et al: "their current approach and actions scream SCAM. They play a too small game for the importance of their claim. " I agree. It just doesn't smell right. If Rossi is trying to prove he has an important new source of cheap power, he hasn't convinced me so far.
Comment
61 of 91
May 9, 2011
Maryyugo,

There are billions of people in this world who have never heard of Rossi. The only way he can present his tehnology is by mass production and distribution of the units. If you recall, the PV effect was know for many decades before the actual industrial production of these cells began. It was not until production and distribution of modules did people begin to understand that PV could be a useful technology. The same could be said of the calculator. Back in the 50's, the first calculators cost several hundred dollars and students had to stick with the slide rule. Calculators were not important then because of their cost. The same was true of the computer. The UNIVAC occupied a large room but now, many times the power can be held in the hand.

We do not have to believe in any technology that comes along; that is the right of the individual. It is absolutely imperative that you continue with your disbelief until you can see a working device or know that it has been tested to your standards. Let us continue being patient and let Rossi bring it out.
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62 of 91
May 9, 2011
You wrote: 'But Rossi is quantitatively very different and that's important because it should be extremely easy to test properly.'

Right. It is extremely easy to test properly, and it was tested properly. They used industry standard methods for a device of this size. That is why Levi, Essen, Kullander and the other observers were instantly convinced the machine is real. There is not the slightest chance these methods are wrong, and not the slightest chance Rossi could have faked it. The tests are too simple for that. There is no place to hide the wires or fuel needed to produce a 16 kW reaction.

As I said, either Levi and the others are cahoots with Rossi, and they are all lying, or the machine is real. There is no middle ground. It is similar to Fleischmann and Pons' boil off experiments in that there is absolutely no way it could be a mistake. Because there was no middle ground, those F&P experiments released a torrent of abuse and lurid accusations by the DoE, the APS and many others. 'Fraud!!' was the only thing left for them to shout.


'Does Rossi need money? Does he need publicity?

No and no.


'If he doesn't care about skeptics, why bother to show the E-Cat prototypes at all?'

He did it mainly as a favor to his old friend Focardi, who is ill and may not live much longer. Focardi wanted to see a demonstration before he dies.
Comment
63 of 91
May 9, 2011
You wrote: "As someone wrote on another forum about Rossi et al: 'their current approach and actions scream SCAM. They play a too small game for the importance of their claim.' I agree."

Let me once again caution you NOT to try to judge a scientific issue by trying to read people's minds. You cannot know in detail what motivates their current approach and actions. You should take into account that Rossi's present actions are mainly intended to secure $140 million by October. Surely you agree that is a lot of money, and most people would make that a high priority! I would want that kind of money sooner than, say, the Nobel Prize.

If you want to wonder about people's motives, you might ask why so many scientists have been attacking cold fusion for the last 22 years, instead of reading the literature. If, as you say, impressing scientists or winning the Nobel is a strong motivation, then why didn't these people do science, instead of engaging in academic politics?

You other statements also mystify me. Why are you suddenly demanding high quality tests to prove cold fusion exists? You have had them for 21 years! You say "the debate continues." No, it doesn't. The debate ended in 1990 when Miles and McKubre published. They along with dozens of others used the best instruments money can buy and they proved beyond any doubt that cold fusion exists.

Focardi et al. and others proved that Ni-H cold fusion can generate 900 MJ from a small amount of material at 37 W. Rossi increased the number of reaction sites, speeding up the reaction by a factor of about 100 (taking into account the mass of Ni). That's a splendid accomplishment, but after all, Arata did the same thing using nanoparticle Pd long ago. At the March ACS conf. the Kobe U. group showed that with Rossi-like material they got a much bigger reaction than before. Other replications are well underway. This is normal science working as it should. Not a scam.
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64 of 91
May 10, 2011
The only claims I am interested in discussing here are Rossi's wherein he shows a device that he says provides about 20KW continuously for long (very long) periods of time using only a bit of nickel powder and hydrogen as fuel. Frankly, I don't care how he does it or why it works if it works. What may have been accomplished elsewhere about LENR is another topic and one which we don't need to get entangled in to determine whether Rossi's claims are real or scam.

Problem with Rossi's claims is: he won't allow qualified and reliable people and institutions to hook it up entirely by themselves and test it by their own independent methods and publish the results in peer reviewed journals. So I don't believe him and neither does most of the world which is as it should be. Instead of proper verification, Rossi publishes performance claims in an internet blog with a highly misleading name. And he gives demonstrations entirely under his control. Until he allows replication, or at the very least entirely independent testing I don't believe a word of it. And I especially don't believe that a working model with very high output has been running in some Italian factory for 4 continuous years and has never been publicly shown and properly tested. That's simply absurd.

$140 million sounds like a lot but it's not, compared to the real value of an invention such as the one Rossi claims to have. And much of that $140M would go to producing a power plant-- one which, I might add, is completely unnecessary to proving Rossi's claims.

I think Rossi's performance so far has every hallmark of a scam. A clever and well executed scam perhaps but still a scam. As to who is complicit in it or how it's done, I haven't a clue. I think by September we'll have a better idea or Rossi will have disappeared from the news.

One thing I am sure about-- what Rossi is doing is not the method by which any earth shaking invention in modern times has been revealed to the world.
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65 of 91
May 10, 2011
'What may have been accomplished elsewhere about LENR is another topic and one which we don't need to get entangled in to determine whether Rossi's claims are real or scam.'

That is an ASTOUNDING assertion. So, in 1935 when no one anywhere had ever made a uranium fission reactor, and there is not even a theoretical way to do that, if some Italian guy comes out of nowhere and says he has one -- you would have no difficulty believing that? You would not ask what other supporting scientific experiments and proof there is? If it is 1943 and the Italian guy is Fermi, and there are dozens of papers and supporting experiments, then you would have good reasons to believe him.

Believability in science is a function of the totality of the experimental evidence. All claims are 'entangled' with other claims. Believability is not a function of your notions about personality or business plans. You need to forget that stuff and look at facts, figures and replicated experiments.


'Problem with Rossi's claims is: he won't allow qualified and reliable people and institutions to hook it up entirely by themselves and test it by their own independent methods and publish the results in peer reviewed journals . . .'

1. He has allowed some of the most qualified and reliable people on earth to examine it. The fact that he was there has no bearing on it. People have also examined it in his absence, when he was on another continent.

2. Several papers about Ni-H cold fusion have been published. It is the same phenomenon at 37 W as 16,000 W! You want peer-reviewed papers? Read them!

3. Many peer-reviewed journal would touch this, because of academic politics.

4. After he begins selling reactors, scientists will be free to examine machines and publish as many peer-reviewed papers as they like. What is the rush? Most scientists have been ignoring this work for 22 years. A few more months won't matter.
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66 of 91
May 10, 2011
'What is the rush? '

A very silly question. Or have you not noticed the price of oil and the general state of the economy of Western nations? And you provided another reason: Rossi's friend's health is waning.

Believability is about replication and independent verification of the actual item. Even if everything you say about LENR is true, it doesn't prove that Rossi has anything whatever of value or that his device really does what he says it does.

'He has allowed some of the most qualified and reliable people on earth to examine it. The fact that he was there has no bearing on it.'

I never said his being there had a bearing. I see what someone else meant by accusing you of misquoting and strawmanning. I said the problem was that he controlled the setup. For proper verification, you need someone else to set up and control the power in and the measurement of power out completely without Rossi's involvement.

As I said many times, I suspect some sort of sleight of hand and scientists are particularly bad at detecting that sort of thing. And once again, the Uri Geller story in which two brilliant top physicists and an editor were bamboozled into publishing nonsense in Nature is a prime example of that sort of thing.

You still have not explained how a large and powerful working model could function for **FOUR PLUS YEARS** in a big Italian factory without that leading to demonstration of it, publication about it, replication of it, a Nobel and billions for Rossi and the solution of the world's energy crisis. If that device existed, it could and would have done that. So I conclude that it most likely doesn't exist. That would mean Rossi is lying and if he can lie about that, what else is he lying about?
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67 of 91
May 10, 2011
'3. Many peer-reviewed journal would touch this, because of academic politics.'

More nonsense. Perhaps some would not. Many would. That's no excuse for calling your blog 'The Journal of Nuclear Physics'!

'2. Several papers about Ni-H cold fusion have been published. It is the same phenomenon at 37 W as 16,000 W! You want peer-reviewed papers? Read them!'

It's not at all the same thing. When the other scientists make kilowatts for years on end on a bit of nickel and a trickle of hydrogen, let me know and I'll be more than happy to read it.

'After he begins selling reactors, scientists will be free to examine machines and publish as many peer-reviewed papers as they like. What is the rush? Most scientists have been ignoring this work for 22 years. A few more months won't matter.'

It's neither necessary not useful for Rossi to wait until Rossi can sell reactors if he ever will be able to. What's been ignored for 22 years? Certainly not Rossi's claim to be able to heat a factory from a bit of nickel and hydrogen. If I remember right, that claim is less than 6 months old and has never been replicated.

I have no interest in futile rehashing of arguments about whether LENR works and to what extent. This is about Rossi's gargantuan and unlikely claims. Please stick to those.
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68 of 91
May 10, 2011
'Even if everything you say about LENR is true, it doesn't prove that Rossi has anything whatever of value or that his device really does what he says it does.'

I simply cannot understand why you think that replication makes no difference in science. The laws of physics are uniform. If 50 g of nickel hydride in one lab can produce 900 MJ, that makes it far more believable that 500 g in another lab can produce 1000 MJ. When hundreds of scientists observe massive non-chemical heat from metal hydrides, the phenomenon must be real. Replication is the only standard of truth in experimental science.


'I said the problem was that he controlled the setup. For proper verification, you need someone else to set up and control the power in and the measurement of power out completely without Rossi's involvement.'

Rossi had nothing to do with the setup. Levi et al. designed it. Hundreds of other experiments with similar setups have confirmed this phenomenon.


'As I said many times, I suspect some sort of sleight of hand and scientists are particularly bad at detecting that sort of thing. And once again, the Uri Geller story in which two brilliant top physicists and an editor were bamboozled . . .'

Irrelevant. This is not done by hand; Geller cannot fool a thermocouple, and hundreds of people have seen this phenomenon in their own experiments, or with Rossi's gadget in his absence.


'You still have not explained how a large and powerful working model could function for **FOUR PLUS YEARS** in a big Italian factory without that leading to demonstration of it, publication about it, replication of it . . .'

I have seen dozens of cold fusion experiments as remarkable as this, from a scientific point of view. People have been ignoring them for 22 years. If I had told you about that factory anytime in the last 4 years, you would have dismissed it. Sci. Am. or Nature dismiss it now, and they dismiss Essen and Kullander.
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69 of 91
May 10, 2011
Here is your fundamental mistake:

"I have no interest in futile rehashing of arguments about whether LENR works and to what extent. This is about Rossi's gargantuan and unlikely claims. Please stick to those."

Rossi's claims are not a bit more gargantuan or unlikely than any other cold fusion claim. Others have produced temperatures, power density, and energy output per unit of mass as high as he has. He has increased the number of reaction sites with nanoparticles, which boosts the speed of the reaction by a factor of ~100, but Arata, Kitamura and many others have done this for 15 years.

There is nothing unique about Rossi except that he has solved all problems at once, making a device suitable for commercialization. Scientifically it is no harder to believe than a 50 mW reaction.

This result is right in line with expectations. Any cold fusion scientist in the past 15 years would have predicted it, and it does not surprise any of them. They have all been trying to achieve this, and they knew it was possible. Once you start building airplanes, it is only a matter of time before someone reaches 20,000 feet with one of them.

Unless you claim that LENR does not work, at all, to any extent, you have no reason to think that Rossi's claims are not true. You cannot selectively throw away evidence you don't like, or "stick to" only one fact at a time, ignoring the others. It all fits together.

This is not about "Rossi's gargantuan and unlikely claims" because they are not gargantuan; they are not a bit unlikely given the totality of the evidence; and they are just as much Arata's claims as Rossi's -- as you see in his patent correspondence.
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70 of 91
May 10, 2011
NOBODY will dismiss a 20+ kilowatt reactor running on a smidgen of nickel and hydrogen without apparent limit. Not if it's properly set up from the start by people who are reliable and are not related in any way to Rossi. Your maintaining that they will is a delusion. Why you choose to delude yourself in this way, I have no idea.

I don't want to debate LENR. This is about Rossi. I know you think measuring small amounts of excess power is unarguable but I disagree. I know you think there is no explanation other than cold fusion but many people disagree and I do NOT want to get into that morass with you. I don't have the time.

What would be unarguable is Rossi's claim to the large heater if it's true-- which is why I am especially interested in it. It's too large and exorbitant to be a measurement (or other) error. Unfortunately, I don't think it's been shown to be true and until it's properly tested one way or another and the general scientific community agrees with the result, we're not going to agree. I don't even think it will bother you one but if Rossi's much anticipated large power plant never materializes and the progress towards building it is never shown to the press. You will still believe Rossi. I can't think of much that would cause you to stop believing it so unless you can specify what reasonable findings might convince you Rossi is a fraud, I'll stop arguing with you.

'If I had told you about that factory anytime in the last 4 years, you would have dismissed it. Sci. Am. or Nature dismiss it now, and they dismiss Essen and Kullander.'

The facts are that no such factory has been shown so you have no way of knowing how it would have been received by the press. I see no reason why any prestigious publication would not jump at a chance to be first. Or why they would want to be left in the dust after Rossi's wonders are finally revealed to all. It makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.
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71 of 91
May 10, 2011
Jed,

The problem with your advocacy - which coincidentally I've seen mirrored in most of the researchers, cheerleaders, con-men, dupes, whatever who are advocating cold fusion - is that you don't seem to understand the idea of replicability in science. Your somewhat condescending remark to Maryyugo shows exactly why so many (true?) scientists and researchers are condescending towards you and your field at large.

Quoth the JedRothwell:
"I simply cannot understand why you think that replication makes no difference in science. The laws of physics are uniform. If 50 g of nickel hydride in one lab can produce 900 MJ, that makes it far more believable that 500 g in another lab can produce 1000 MJ. When hundreds of scientists observe massive non-chemical heat from metal hydrides, the phenomenon must be real. Replication is the only standard of truth in experimental science."

What you outlined above is NOT in ANY WAY an example of scientific replicability. Laws are supposed to be CONSTANT, so if this magical LENR worked in a CONSTANT manner, then if 50 g produced 900 MJ, and 500 g produced 1000 MJ, you'd have a completely failed experiment, and a (true?) non-cold fusion fanatic researcher would be beside themselves seeking to understand why their experiment failed to show replicable results - with the assumption that there was a flaw in the setup of the experiment, and the hope that said flaw could be identified. Without identification of flaws in replicability all results are suspect.

If you show me two experiments with an order of magnitude difference in reactant and a 10% difference in results, I'm looking at two failed experiments that have proven nothing.

The fact that you don't seem to comprehend this is why the scientific community ignores you. The fact that anyone who calls themselves a scientist doesn't respect this is the reason that I am pretty solidly confident that this is a fraud.
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72 of 91
May 10, 2011
@JD: As to your second post, I have no idea whether LENR works or not and with respect to Rossi, I don't care in the slightest. Rossi himself says he doesn't know how his device works so whether or not it is LENR is irrelevant.

What I care about is whether Rossi's device works. The part *you're* missing is that even if LENR is real, Rossi's apparent fixing of everything nobody in a quarter century has been able to could still be a scam.

I have no idea why you keep rationalizing Rossi's bizarre and alarming behavior rather than encouraging him to provide proper proof that his device works as he says-- and that would come from publication of a simple test that does not involve Rossi --In ANY way except for him providing the device as a black box with instructions. He keeps saying he's going to do that for the Swedes. I hope it's soon.
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73 of 91
May 10, 2011
"As to your second post, I have no idea whether LENR works or not and with respect to Rossi, I don't care in the slightest."

If you have no idea whether LENR works or not, then you have no basis to judge Rossi. Whether you care or not, you can only do science by looking at evidence. You cannot selectively ignore the parts you don't want to hear about.


"Rossi himself says he doesn't know how his device works so whether or not it is LENR is irrelevant."

Of course it is LENR! What Rossi says has no relevance. Every expert is certain this is LENR. Nature has not devised many unrelated ways to produce nuclear energy from metal hydrides.


"What I care about is whether Rossi's device works. The part *you're* missing is that even if LENR is real, Rossi's apparent fixing of everything nobody in a quarter century has been able to could still be a scam."

What do you mean "nobody" fixed it?!? That's nonsense. EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM that Rossi fixed has already been fixed by someone else. The biggest problem he fixed was fixed by Arata in 1994 using a similar method. What Rossi did was to find ways to bring all of the various solutions together in one system. Several other researchers were close to doing that, notably Arata himself, and Piantelli, the other leader in Ni-H. Rossi has improved the state of the art, but nothing about his claim is unique or more unbelievable than any other cold fusion claim.

People began making incandescent lights in the 1850s. The bulbs were short lived and impractical. 20 years later, Edison brought together the best techniques, added a high impedance filament and other improvements, and came up with the first commercial device. That was remarkable but given the previous experiments there was nothing unbelievable about it. Rossi has done something similar.

I do not rationalize Rossi's behavior. This is about calorimetry, not behavior.

There are hundreds of cold fusion black boxes already, and gobs of proof they work.
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74 of 91
May 10, 2011
Hi Jed,

I have been following cold fusion since 1989. Non-scientists do not have the background to understand the explanations; they only believe what is popular. Sorry, but I think you are wasting your time trying to defend it here.

Micky Badgero
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75 of 91
May 10, 2011
'If you have no idea whether LENR works or not, then you have no basis to judge Rossi. Whether you care or not, you can only do science by looking at evidence. '

You have to believe that LENR works to judge Rossi? Why? Either Rossi's work is credible based on the evidence he provides, or it's not. He has not provided any experiment in which he was not involved in setting up the power source and the equipment. That's NOT credible, whether or not you believe that LENR is.

'What Rossi says has no relevance.'

You may wish to ask Rossi about that.

'What Rossi did was to find ways to bring all of the various solutions together in one system. '

Oh... Ok then. Rossi is irrelevant because there will be all sorts of 20KW+ thermal generators based on LENR soon. Soon? Exactly when shall we expect those please? And by whom?

'That was remarkable but given the previous experiments there was nothing unbelievable about it. Rossi has done something similar.'

You believe he has. The proof so far is underwhelming.

'I do not rationalize Rossi's behavior. This is about calorimetry, not behavior.'

Of course it's about behavior. Rossi behaves like a scammer. If it quacks like a duck, what then is it?

'There are hundreds of cold fusion black boxes already, and gobs of proof they work.'

So you keep saying. When I read in a peer reviewed journal (or several) that one was proven to make 20KW for a few months from scraps of nickel and a squirt of hydrogen, I will be more likely to believe it.

'Non-scientists do not have the background to understand the explanations; they only believe what is popular.'

The problem isn't non-scientists. A lot of scientists believe Rossi hasn't proven his case . Anyway, it's not about explanations. I don't care in the slightest how Rossi does what he does. The problem is that he has not provided for independent testing and publication and his claims are not credible. Never mind the explanation until he proves the performance is real.
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76 of 91
May 10, 2011
You wrote: 'Non-scientists do not have the background to understand the explanations; they only believe what is popular.'

That is true. Although some of her posts give me the impression that maryyugo is a scientist.


'Sorry, but I think you are wasting your time trying to defend it here.'

I realize that I have no hope convincing maryyugo. People who refuse to look at the evidence, who believe that replication means nothing, and who insist on judging scientific questions by looking at personality, impressions and rumors instead of facts are beyond help.

Despite that, I am probably not wasting my time. It is always good to refine and sharpen one's arguments. Also, this site and others are generating record traffic at LENR-CANR.org. People are downloading 6,000 to 10,000 papers per week. Visitors are coming from universities, corporations and national labs worldwide. Word is getting out. You will see nothing about cold fusion in Nature, Sci. Am. or the Washington Post, but thanks to the Internet, people have been able to download 1.8 million papers about it from LENR-CANR.org.

It has been 22 years since MIT celebrated the Death of Cold Fusion at a party a few weeks after the announcement, and Nature called for 'vituperation and mockery' to 'speed cold fusion's demise' It has been 18 years since the APS called the researchers 'a cult of fervent half-wits' 'captivated by [Fleischmann and Pons'] fantasy . . . [who] pursue cold fusion with Branch Davidian intensity.' Who would have predicted that despite this fierce opposition, thousands of people would visit LENR-CANR and other sites every day, and hundreds of people -- mainly undergraduate students, I think * -- would be reading papers? Cold fusion would have been forgotten were it not for the Internet.


* Undegrads contact me most often, anyway.
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77 of 91
May 10, 2011
maryyugo wrote:

''That was remarkable but given the previous experiments there was nothing unbelievable about it. Rossi has done something similar.'

You believe he has. The proof so far is underwhelming.'

How would you know? You said 'I have no idea whether LENR works or not.' You have obviously not read the literature. You are not qualified to judge anything.

You can't have it both ways! Either you know something and you have some basis to say the proof is 'underwhelming' or you know nothing and you have no way to discern whether it underwelming or overwhelming.

You cannot claim perfect ignorance of this subject while at the same time claiming that you have some magical ESP method of knowing the evidence is 'underwhelming.' Experts such as Essen and Kullander saw the Rossi device and were instantly convinced it is real. Thousands of other experts have seen similar cold fusion experiments, and every one of them is convinced the effect is real. You have seen nothing, read nothing, and you know nothing, so you have no business disputing these people -- or me, for that matter.

All this nonsense about personality and (literal) handwaving about Uri Geller is as far from science is anything can be. Science is about facts and data, not random impressions you gained from reading nonsense at Wikipedia or in the mass media.
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78 of 91
May 10, 2011
Heh. Rossi says he puts in 400 watts and a bit of nickel and hydrogen and he gets 20 kilowatts out indefinitely. I am perfectly qualified to judge that without any knowledge of or belief in LENR. I don't care how Rossi does it, if he does it. I know what 20KW is and I know how to measure it. It's not rocket science. But it can be faked.

Aren't you just a bit upset with Rossi about not getting proper tests done on the big heater 4+ years ago? If it had been done right, nobody would be arguing about this at all.

'I realize that I have no hope convincing maryyugo. '

Not the way you're proceeding, that's for sure! But I am VERY easy to convince. One or two replications or even independent measurements from the likes of MIT, Cal Tech, ORNL, or Sandia... with publication... and I'm pretty much on board. Your rationalization of why Rossi doesn't do that doesn't make sense nor does the hurry to pass 'Go' and collect construction funds of $140M for a device that doesn't need to be made at all and especially by Rossi. Rossi never heard of GE or Westinghouse? How about any heavy industry company in Japan? Korea? if he doesn't like the US. They can make his machines once he proves the principle.

What you don't seem to get is that a single (or a few) working 20KW device is plenty enough. The world absolutely does not need for Rossi to make a megawatt plant. Nobody needs that any more than the supposed 4 year running 'big heater'. Rossi'd be extremely rich and famous without the plant if he'd just prove his technology properly (and of course, independently and reliably).

When people's actions don't add up and make sense, I'm suspicious. And it seems to me, the same facts make you more credulous. I really don't understand that. You're taking in Rossi's story hook line and sinker because you believe LENR is a fact. You're not asking the right questions and you're not demanding the appropriate level of proof.
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79 of 91
May 10, 2011
Glen Doty wrote:

'What you outlined above is NOT in ANY WAY an example of scientific replicability. Laws are supposed to be CONSTANT, so if this magical LENR worked in a CONSTANT manner, then if 50 g produced 900 MJ, and 500 g produced 1000 MJ, you'd have a completely failed experiment . . .'

You seem to think the two experiments in question stopped working after they produced 900 MJ and 1000 MJ. That is incorrect. They were turned off. If they had not been, they would probably still be producing energy today. The ratio of energy to hydride means nothing; the only significant fact is that both Ni-H systems produced far more energy than any chemical system of equivalent mass could have. This is how much energy 26 kg of gasoline produce. You cannot get that from 50 g of any chemical fuel, or 500 g of any chemical fuel. That's the point.

This is nuclear energy; the upper limits are far higher than this, and in any case it is the mass of hydrogen, not nickel, the governs the limits of energy production. (Only a few grams of hydrogen were present.) The amount of active catalyst surface governs the power level.

Please, just once, read about these things before commenting. I uploaded 1,200 papers so that people would not have to wallow in ignorance and make absurd mistakes about cold fusion.


maryyugo wrote: '. . .I am VERY easy to convince. One or two replications or even independent measurements from the likes of MIT, Cal Tech, ORNL, or Sandia... with publication... and I'm pretty much on board.'

I uploaded hundreds of papers with independent replications of cold fusion from ORNL, LANL, BARC and similar places. Take your pick! Rossi has the same effect on a larger scale. If you believe these others, you will also believe Rossi.


. . . Anyway, on that note, I think I will sign off from this discussion. You are welcome to have the last word!
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80 of 91
May 10, 2011
Hook, Line and Fusion

I was taken in hook line and lead,
By Rossi's technology,
Because it has truly lead,
To heat productivity,

The proof is coming,
In a workable device,
Till then I'll be humming,
To a song that's mighty nice.

Cold fusion turning up the heat,
In a simple way which can't be beat,
No strong magnetic fields, needed for high yields,
Our energy needs are sure to meet.
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81 of 91
May 13, 2011
You say that Brillouin Energy announced product plans to the press and then went silent. However Brillnoun Energy never made any such announcement. The only publication ever published by Robert Godes was an article in Infinite Energy issue 82 2008 and Brillouin Energy was not even formed until 2009.
A copy of that paper is available on the Brillouin Energy website at http://www.brillouinenergy.com with significant additional information.
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82 of 91
May 16, 2011
Looks like Rossi has cut a deal with a US firm with excellent reputation and government connections. They have known Rossi for a long time. Here is the news link:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece

Here is the company's web site: http://lti-global.com/

Also Rossi announced this morning that all 330 of the modules for the one megawatt plant are finished and now being tested

I wonder if the US news lemmings will continue to ignore this game-changer.
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83 of 91
May 16, 2011
News lemmings are hiding the news,
They must have technology blues,
If they opened their eyes they would find a surprise,
Passing in front of their noses.

Paparazzi they are not,
Unless the news is hot,
But Rossi has found a method that's sound,
They can't see in front of their noses.
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84 of 91
May 17, 2011
Fox did have a report on Rossi earlier in the year:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/24/italian-scientists-claim-cold-fusion-breakthrough/
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85 of 91
May 17, 2011
John-Bronson

Thanks. I looked at the article which described Rossi's process as 'dubious'. Now that Rossi has several hundred modules completed, there should be more follow-up.
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86 of 91
May 26, 2011
"Global warming deniers do this every day."
This was stated in the article as an example of 'group think.'
I believe it's just the other way around.
AGW true believers are guilty of 'group think' and avoiding any evidence that would throw doubt on their extraordinary claims the way vampires avoid garlic.
The way the physics community treat Fleischman and Pons was dreadful and they were guilty of 'group think.'
And then you have the drum beaters like Jeremy Rifkin.
But it will be worth it all if this proves to be real!
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87 of 91
June 24, 2011
Ladies and Gents,

What we all must realize here is that Rossi is NOT running an academic exercise, he is running a commercial exercise. So for all those out there crying out for detailed proof and transparent experimentation and testing, well, he's not going to give out the Cadbury secret.

You see, the reason why academics post their studies in journals IN THIS FIELD is because a) their funding dictates it must be so, and b) they haven't really figured out the science of the phenomena and are hopeful their research will help someone else to get there.

But, duh, anyone who begins believing they know how to get the caramel into the chocolate is going to want to make a profit off their hard work. And that's exactly what Rossi is doing. In fact, as far as commercial exercises go, he is actually being incredibly open about it. He is simply not being open by academic standards, and why should he be?

You will then cry out, his toy will save the world, he should show some benevolence and share it for free. What a joke!

The only folks that are truly going to be able to test this toy up the ying yang are those that have put their money where their mouth is. They will test it, and if it walks and talks like a duck, Rossi will be a rich man and Greece will be saved financially. Otherwise, Rossi won't get a penny and will disappear into the annals of courageous experimenters who tried to make a buck saving the world.

So for all those crying academics out there, you are wasting your time and energy.

This is a commercial exercise, not an academic one.
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88 of 91
July 20, 2011
The resistivity of copper is 1.68e-8 ohm-meters (room temp). A 1 mm diameter wire has 0.785e-6 meters^2 area. That translates to 0.021 ohms per meter. So a meter of this wire would only be 0.021 ohms (I'm going to ignore skin effect in this analysis because at 50 Hz it doesn't matter in a 1mm wire). At 67 amps it would dissipate ~100 watts (r*i^2) over a meter of wire. I don't think that would burn it up. Granted, it will warm up... which will increase resistance causing it to warm up more.... but I suspect even if I knew the thermal coefficient and calculated the new temperature this would not be a situation where the wire would fail in 18 hours.

From my own experience a 1mm wire in older IC technologies (0.25um) would carry an amp... and this is an aluminum wire that with a depth measured in microns... suggesting a 1mm x 1mm x 1 m chunk of aluminum should have no trouble carrying 67 amps along it's length (and aluminum is more resistive than copper).

Conclusion: A 1 mm copper wire could in fact carry 67 amps over 18 hours without burning up.

Building codes are concerned about wires lasting decades and showing no ill effects from electromigration after all those years.... leading to very conservative requirements. This is why the code requires a thick wire feeding a 16kw water heater.

Does this mean Rossi is a fraud? Of course not. I have no idea if he's above board or not. I tried reading one of the papers linked here (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf) but it seems to be more about the equipment used in these experiments than the experiments themselves. Regardless, my background is in VLSI, not cold fusion so my opinion on any papers in this area of research would be of questionable value.

But I will certainly be looking for an update to this blog during the October time frame! Yes yes... it's a large project and may be delayed but please keep us posted. My interest is piqued!
Comment
89 of 91
December 29, 2011
I read a book titled Bad Science regarding Cold Fusion, which indicated the hoax was similar to Bre-x gold in the money it attracted. There fore any reference to Cold Fusion should invoke skepticism.
Realistically no security force would support the wide spread proliferation of Nuclear materials, that you obviously advocate.
But I do recognize the attempt to change the format which Nuclear energy is presently delivered.
Please read my other post in Renewable Energy The 11 Top Biofuels Trends of 2011 for another nuclear energy format change.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/12/the-11-top-biofuels-trends-of-2011#readercomments
Comment
90 of 91
January 4, 2012
Now that it is 2012 is there any thing new to add to this???????
We have had more than half a year for verification of something this important.
Comment
91 of 91
January 5, 2012
A 470 kilowatt system was shipped in September to a customer, who has ordered 12 more units. The customer's name was not disclosed but the acceptance testing was semi open to many invited scientists.
You can keep up with developments on Rossi's blog here:
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510#comments
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Thomas Blakeslee

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About: Thomas R Blakeslee’s books have been published in nine different languages. After serving for three years in the U.S. Navy, he earned a degree from CalTech in P... more »

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